Atlanta Hawks: Waiting on J.J. (UPDATE: J.J. expected to accept offer in second meeting)
Assuming he can use an extra $25 million or so, J.J. willl be back. (Bob Rosato/SI)
(UPDATE: A person with knowledge of the process said the Hawks are to meet with J.J. again in L.A. with the expectation that the two sides will work out the details of a contract agreement.)
What’s up, blog people? Shaking off the cobwebs after staying up way too late and obsessively checking the Blackberry for some confirmation that J.J. accepted Atlanta’s maximium contract offer. No official word on that yet but my prediction that there’s no way he (or any other older free agent) leaves that much cash on the table is looking pretty good. I’ll update as the day goes along.
After Rick Sund met with Joe and his agent to extend the offer, the Knicks made their pitch to him. The Heat also are trying to get in the running. The Mavs also want to get an audience with Joe even though they have no cap room.
None of those teams has Atlanta’s $27 million advantage. Sure, J.J. could try to force a sign-and-trade to one of those teams and still get his Bird rights money, but that would require an agreement between the Hawks and the new team. Why go through all of that when a max offer is sitting in front of him?
Also, while the Hawks aren’t a championship-level team, they are better right now than any of the teams with the cap space to offer J.J. the max. Sure, those teams all can get better by making moves, but this is another area where J.J. has what he wants in front of him so why take a chance somewhere else? The Hawks are going to have to get creative to improve the team once J.J. re-signs but they already have a good team.
It seems much of the league was surprised that the Hawks offered the maximum. I couldn’t find anyone who predicted J.J. would re-sign in Atlanta, probably because no one believed ASG would spend the money. NBA.com’s David Aldridge says Sund and his people (who’ve always been big J.J. fans) had to convince the owners to make the investment. Aldridge also amplified what I said in yesterday’s blog about future trading possibilities for J.J.:
“And if the Hawks don’t break through in the East in the next couple of seasons, Johnson will only be 31 in the summer of 2012, and still have a lot of teams interested in his services. You can always trade him, the argument went; someone will rise up in the next few years into contender status, and teams on the rise tend to be more willing to go all-in for a year or two and make a trade for a high-priced player.”
That happens all the time in the NBA. It’s why when Michael Gearon Jr was lamenting that Jermaine O’Neal was overpaid last season, I was thinking that O’Neal still got traded along to Toronto and then later to Miami after the Pacers gave him a big-money deal. This was after he proved to be injury-prone and unable to get them over the top.
Aldridge ended his post with a sentiment I saw expressed by other reporters on Twitter last night: “It no doubt also came up that it’s highly unlikely that the current Atlanta Spirit ownership group will still be in charge of the Hawks in six years. Johnson’s due bill will be someone else’s problem by then.”
If that indeed is part of their rationale, it’s obviously a cynical point of view. From a practical standpoint it’s also risky since no one is lining up to buy sports teams nowadays. More likely, the Hawks figure they can always move J.J. later and start over if things don’t work out. It’s not an unrealistic expectation.
MC
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444 comments Add your comment
lets go!!
July 1st, 2010
2:30 pm
JOE ((( SHOW ME THE MONEY ))) JOHNSON, EITHER U LIKE IT OR NOT, I LIKE IT!!!!
HoosierHawk
July 1st, 2010
2:30 pm
Hoops Hype said the Clippers are in contention for S and T for Joe. I’d take Eric Gordon and Kaman all day if they’d do it. The salaries should match.
tckr83
July 1st, 2010
2:32 pm
Right… Josh Smith doesn’t have any value…
Talent begats talent. If traded after signing the contract, Joe Johnson wouldn’t exactly be bringing back peanuts in return…
I guess we should ignore the fact that JJ has: Been a no-show in the playoffs for 3 straight years, doesn’t lead, is a 2nd tier “superstar”, pissed off many Atlanta fans, Joe Johnson is all about Joe Johnson attitude? I’m not drinking the kool-aid.
It is what it is. And it’s a bad contract for the team… unless he’s signed and then traded. I guess i’m “hatin” then…
bigdave
July 1st, 2010
2:33 pm
im sorry but i dont think Josh is going anywhere… i think Drew has big plans for him…
some would hate me for it but i would move Al before Josh..
For Real
July 1st, 2010
2:34 pm
Other than Kobe and DWade, name another Shooting Guard in the NBA that’ better than Joe.
JC
July 1st, 2010
2:36 pm
@tckr83 – I can’t disagree that ASG is dysfunctional. Pretty sure I’d get laughed off the comments section if I did.
But I will say that, from what we had to choose from for head coach, Drew was the best option. Of course, Avery Johnson, Tom Thibodeau or any of the big name other guys who signed with other teams would have been preferable, but when they signed elsewhere, our options were Casey, Jackson and Drew. First off, Mark Jackson shouldn’t be in this conversation. He knows the game? Great. He’ll make a great broadcaster.
Other than his half-season in Minnesota, Casey is basically the same as Drew. Both are long-time assistants who have worked under various head coaches and are due for a shot at a head coaching gig.
The added advantage of Drew is that he knows the Hawks players, and they like him. That means decreased “feeling out” period, less risk of player backlash and greater potential for player cohesion and philosophy.
Also, Drew saw what worked and didn’t work with this team under Woodson. How great was it during his first press conference, he addressed in six minutes the major issues I’ve been screaming at my television for the last six years? This guy has had a front row seat to every Hawks game for the last six years. Pretty sure he knows more about players’ strengths and weaknesses, as well as the team sociology than some coach from the Mavs.
And as far as $ for the 31 pick, you have to look at the alternative. We’ve already got Jason Collins and Randolph Morris pretty much glued to the bench, why add another inexperienced big man who won’t see any minutes? I’d rather have another Joe Smith than a Randolph Morris four years ago.
For Real
July 1st, 2010
2:37 pm
Caring is a two-way street. Fans need to stop being so freakin sensitive.
tckr83
July 1st, 2010
2:38 pm
For Real-
I agree with you there. But what has it gotten the Hawks? If you gave me a choice between Joe Johnson and Ray Allen (who is not a top2 SG in the NBA) to take a last second shot in a Game 7 of the playoffs… who would you take? I’d take Allen everytime. And thats something that shouldn’t even be up for debate if you’re the #3 SG in the NBA. He doesn’t have “it”. I’d even take Jamal Crawford over JJ with that shot, and he has only played in Atlanta for one season!
mykhalc
July 1st, 2010
2:39 pm
question…is there a real plan??? has there ever been one???
For Real
July 1st, 2010
2:40 pm
“I guess we should ignore the fact that JJ has: Been a no-show in the playoffs for 3 straight years, doesn’t lead, is a 2nd tier “superstar”, pissed off many Atlanta fans, Joe Johnson is all about Joe Johnson attitude?” – You could switch JJ with Lebron but i bet you would want to sign Lebron even tho he was a no-show in the playoffs for 3 straight years and pissed off many Cleveland fans.
lets go!!
July 1st, 2010
2:42 pm
For Real
July 1st, 2010
2:34 pm
Other than Kobe and DWade, name another Shooting Guard in the NBA that’ better than Joe. <<<< PREACH
lets go!!
July 1st, 2010
2:44 pm
JOE SHOWED UP IN THE 1ST PLAYOFFS GET UR FACTS RIGHT
bigdave
July 1st, 2010
2:49 pm
from Sekou’s Twitter:
Hawks coach Larry Drew was a part of the delegation in LA making pitch to Joe Johnson. Sources say Johnson “loved what he heard” from Drew. 35 minutes ago via web
ITS ON!
tckr83
July 1st, 2010
2:49 pm
JC-
Avery Johnson made a deal with NJ after ASG decided he’d cost too much. Thibodeau (sp?), Scott and even Del Negro plus one or two others with head coaching experience were available AFTER Drew signed with the Hawks.
I’m just not buying the fact that a guy that has been with this team throughout Mike Woodson’s tenure is going to make THAT MUCH of a difference if any at all.
How can anyone be “excited” about Drew getting hired? The best anyone can say is, at least his last name isn’t Woodson…
bigdave
July 1st, 2010
2:52 pm
Joe is on board.. and now he can prove to you naysayers his willingness to play TEAM basketball.. Joe was never selfish.. the principles of Mike Woodsons offense was.. i believe Joe will be maximized under Drew..
For Real
July 1st, 2010
2:52 pm
“If you gave me a choice between Joe Johnson and Ray Allen (who is not a top2 SG in the NBA) to take a last second shot in a Game 7 of the playoffs… who would you take? I’d take Allen everytime.” – Did you watch Ray Allen in the Championship game? If you go back to their title game it was Paul not Ray that was Boston’s best player. If you don’t like Joe say so but don’t make things up that are not true. No one in this league would take Ray of Joe. PERIOD!!!
tckr83
July 1st, 2010
2:55 pm
let it go-
His first playoffs, JJ had 20pts/game on 40% shooting for his first playoffs experience in Atlanta. Holy cow. Lets throw the max at him. REALLY?
JoJo the Godfather
July 1st, 2010
2:56 pm
Did Rudy Gay just accept a max deal from Memphis?
mykhalc
July 1st, 2010
2:56 pm
ok…i can answer my own question!!!LOL the only plan that was executed and executed pretty flawlessly was the dismantlin’ of the team in year one of Woodson!!! maybe year one of Drew will bring the same!!??!! i just don’t get these guys….no captain…no rudder…nada!!!
Bluestreak
July 1st, 2010
2:57 pm
I would do Josh Smith for Chris Paul all day, every day. We can get a legit 3 or 5 and make our MAXman happy he doesn’t have to deal with Smoove
tckr83
July 1st, 2010
2:57 pm
For real-
Am i making up that Ray Allen is possibly THE BEST SHOOTER OF ALL TIME?
I don’t thnik so. Did you watch Joe Johnson at all in the playoffs this year? Am I making that up? I don’t think so.
If you wanna kiss JJ’s butt, thats fine. I’m not.
Joe's place Joe speaking
July 1st, 2010
2:57 pm
We know the Mavs are extremely interested in Hawks star Joe Johnson. So – with the understanding that Dallas has long sought help at the 2-guard spot and that discussions about LeBron, Wade and the underpublicized idea of stealing Rudy Gay all have merit — let’s take a closer, issue-by-issue look at the idea of Joe Johnson, and how his acquisition might work:
Johnson may not be the ultimate prize this summer in the league, but he comes with the desirable pedigree of having carried the load as his team’s best player for multiple years. As we’ve seen in Boston (Garnett and Allen) and LA (Gasol), adding that sort of player to another who’s been a team’s lead player in getting to the playoffs can multiply the efforts and effectiveness of both.
As such, JJ could be more valuable to the Mavs than has been noticed.
He’s a very large (6-7) 2-guard who let the Hawks to a franchise turnaround. He’s not LeBron/Wade. How he compares to the 23-year-old Gay, a restricted free agent who might actually be easier to secure, is an argument for another day. But no debate here: Joe is a major upgrade over what Dallas has generally relied upon over the years at the position.
So the next question is emerging: if the Mavs can entice him, what would it cost?
The answer is intriguing because of the flexibility the Mavs have created with their assets.
It all starts with two issues:
1. What other options (if any) will Atlanta have besides working with the Mavs on a Sign-and-Trade? If they decline the deal, would that send him to a rival of the Hawks? Will there be other places JJ likes, with Sign-and-Trade offers on the table for the Hawks? While Atlanta has made noises about being disinterested in any S-n-T, at the end of the day it would seem that their disinterest will only last as long as it furthers their franchise goals – and if he’s walking anyhow, they may quickly change their stance with the right offer.
There is a reason that ultimately, most major free-agent movement is actually S-n-T movement. To do otherwise (as some think Cleveland will stubbornly do with LeBron, letting him go with no S-n-T to prove some spiteful point) is only hurting yourself.
2. If the Hawks are open to (or forced to) consider a Sign-and-Trade with someone, what (other than the generic “the best thing we can get”) will they be looking for? To be more specific, do they want players? Do they want veterans ready to win? Or do they prefer kids? Or picks? How about salary issues – do they want a normal trade match, or one with almost no salary featuring Dampier’s instant expiring DUST?
If you think through those two issues, it’s quickly apparent that a SnT with Atlanta could end up in a million different ways. But interestingly, the Mavs have the pieces to do just about anything needed to get the deal done, it would seem.
Since we don’t know how the Hawks would be thinking, let’s scattershoot the possibilities.
POSSIBILITY: If the Hawks want no salary at all – to trade-match any deal JJ could get from Dallas, the DUST contract alone would do the trick. So if Atlanta wants no salary whatsoever, simply add one or more No. 1 picks and/or cash to The DUST chip, and the deal is done. Easy as pie.
Furthermore, while the Hawks talk like they aren’t interested in a SnT if JJ walks, might this sort of “this won’t cost you anything, since he’s walking anyway why not steer him to the West and take some free picks” package (our model use of The DUST chip) be the magic key to get a SnT done?
POSSIBILITY: With that as the base for a no-to-low-salary offer, it’s easy to negotiate from there in various ways as needed. Depending on how well each side is able to negotiate and how willing each is to walk away from making the deal, maybe the Mavs would add more “cheap” pieces – more cash, more picks, and even some inexpensive-but-useful pieces like Beaubois, Barea, or Dominique Jones. Or maybe the Mavs would be able to offer less and still make the Hawks happy. Who knows?
We know Dallas wishes to not part with Roddy B. The question the Mavs must ask themselves: Is Joe Johnson already the player (in terms of overall impact) that Roddy B is trying to become? Or is Roddy B a good bet to become an even better player than Joe?
POSSIBILITY: What if the Hawks instead prefer a deal filled with existing useful veterans (which will have lots of salary)? In that case – the Mavs would still have the players to do it and the flexibility to provide choices.
Some options might include the Mavs sending a SnT’ed Haywood to help the Hawks’ needs at center, Butler to help replace JJ on the wing, ex-Hawk Jason Terry to shore up SG and shooting deficiencies with JJ’s loss, and/or others as filler or to provide added help. Mix and match with a Barea or Roddy B or Jones here or there and negotiate as to what is needed to get the deal done.
POSSIBILITY: To be more specific on those ideas with veterans, how about something as simple as a Butler-Stevenson pair of expirings to provide short-term help, layered with the addition of Jones for their future needs at SG? Or what about a Haywood-Jet package to provide short-term help, with some cash included to relieve salary issues and a future pick as the cherry on top?
POSSIBILITY: Even more important to note is the fact that, regardless of what the Hawks might prefer, there are likely to still be multiple assets left for the Mavs to do another significant deal this summer. (See Dallas’ Double-Dipping.)
One final issue to discuss is this: how interested would JJ be in coming to Dallas? Our belief is that the Mavs could — better than many teams being mentioned in relation to him — satisfy his likely wish list.
*He wants to get a full contract. This is a meritous debate in some cities – including in Atlanta, where I find it hard to believe reports that they have an intention of giving him six years and $125 mil — but maybe no problem in Dallas.
*He wants to play for a team that’s successful. When assumptions were made earlier this year that he might be an easy get for the Knicks under his former coach D’Antoni, he quickly shot down the idea with the response that after years of struggling in Atlanta to find some on-court success, he had no desire to go backwards and start over when it came to being on a winner. He’ll have to weigh that when some teams fall short of their quest to sign LeBron, and he may find himself weighing the Mavs vs. the Knicks, Nets, Rockets and Clippers.
*He wants to be wanted. The well-publicized acrimony from Atlanta fans towards him when the Hawks lost in the playoffs has perhaps ruined their chances completely.
All of that sounds to me like a player who will want to listen to Dallas’ pitch.
Mr. Phil
July 1st, 2010
2:58 pm
@JoJO
Reports are Gay just got $80 mil to stay with Grizz.
mykhalc
July 1st, 2010
2:58 pm
Enter your comments here
DTC
July 1st, 2010
2:59 pm
If not by the end of next season, in 2-3 years, everyone will be asking why in the world did the Hawks give Joe Johnson all that money, and not it is tied up for x # of years, and we could find someone else that would fit in better, for the lopng haul.
LET JOE GO! LET JOE GO! LET JOE GO! LET JOE GO! LET JOE GO! LET JOE GO!LET JOE GO!
DTC
July 1st, 2010
3:00 pm
Unless, they are going to sign and trade him.
tckr83
July 1st, 2010
3:01 pm
For Real-
You can’t compare Joe Johnson to Lebron James, I WISH you could, but you can’t. Where is Joe Johnson’s 2 league MVP’s, stats not even close, Lebron does voice his opinion and lead from time to time and has AT LEAST played for a title.
The fact you would compare the two, tells me all i need to know about you. Keep drinking the kool-aid…
Bertie
July 1st, 2010
3:05 pm
Check out this article from Hoopsworld that talks about a sign a trade for JJ.
http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=16672
tckr83
July 1st, 2010
3:06 pm
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5344459
This just came up on ESPN front page.
i_am_soulstar
July 1st, 2010
3:08 pm
Rudy Gay has agreed to a five-year, $81.6 million deal with Memphis, including a player option on fifth, his reps at Octagon confirmed to Y! per Adrian Woj. Memphis, you’re up.
jfreak13713
July 1st, 2010
3:11 pm
Chris Paul is not coming to Atlanta so lets move on! The deal for J.J. is good for J.J. but won’t make the Hawks better. However, we couldn’t have gotten equal talent for less money so we’ll just have to hope the “new” coach can help improve the team play. Either way the Hawks will be a good team next year and injuries can always change outlooks!
doc
July 1st, 2010
3:13 pm
if this is true MC i much prefer the ace of this negotiation than that of chills and josh. you werent around for that summer but that was the pits.
tckr83
July 1st, 2010
3:14 pm
Good for Memphis. They’re a good, young team and should make some noise maybe this year and definitely after that.
Interesting stat… by the way…
Joe Johnson: Career ppg… 17.6
Rudy Gay: Career ppg… 17.4
JJ: 6 yrs 119M
RG: 5 yrs 81M
Hmmm…
Hawksfan
July 1st, 2010
3:15 pm
If the Hawks re-up JJ, I will never go see another game at Phillips Arena. The guy isn’t good enough to be the #1 guy on a championship team. He’s a great complimentary piece, but we’re going to be paying him $24 million dollars at the age of 35? You can’t be serious.
steve brown
July 1st, 2010
3:15 pm
Most likely scenario:
NBA Free Agency Rumors: Is a Joe Johnson Sign-and-Trade In the Works?
Adrian Vicente by
Adrian Vicente
Written on July 01, 2010
ATLANTA – MAY 10: Joe Johnson #2 of the Atlanta Hawks against the Orlando Magic during Game Four of the Eastern Conference Semifinals of the 2010 NBA Playoffs at Philips Arena on May 10, 2010 in Atlanta, Georgia. NOTE TO USER: User expressly acknowledges and agrees that, by downloading and/or using this Photograph, User is consenting to the terms and conditions of the Getty Images License Agreement. (Photo by Kevin C. Cox/Getty Images) Kevin C. Cox/Getty Images
Reports out of Atlanta suggest at 12:01 A.M. on Thursday morning, the Hawks offered free agent Joe Johnson a maximum contract worth $124 million over six years.
This offer makes it only a matter of time before Johnson, who can’t get a better deal financially anywhere else, signs on the dotted line.
But I have a question no one—not even TNT’s David Aldridge—is asking.
Does this contract mean Johnson will be in a Hawks uniform next season?
The simple but possibly naive answer is yes. Johnson was the leader of a Hawks team that won 53 games and advanced to the second round of the playoffs last season. Johnson’s return to a young, talented and improving team (Josh Smith, Al Horford and Marvin Williams are all under the age of 25) all but ensures a similar run for the Hawks next season.
But, if Atlanta’s front office was unwilling to give Johnson this kind of contract all season long, why are they so aggressively willing to do so now? Especially, considering Johnson’s atrocious showing—39 percent from the field; 22 percent on threes—in the playoffs.
Jamal Crawford, the Sixth Man of the Year, can seamlessly step into the starting two-guard slot and allow the Hawks to focus on their biggest need, a center. Isn’t this a wiser alternative to giving Johnson, who averaged just 17.8 points and shot 40 percent in 29 playoff games with the Hawks, a contract that will pay him over $23 million when he’s 35 years old?
Hawks management was willing to let him go all along yet, now they want him back like a high school girlfriend.
Don’t get it twisted—something bigger is at play here.
I believe Johnson will be traded next week.
bigdave
July 1st, 2010
3:16 pm
i guess the media would have rather seen Joe take money from another organization just so they could praise them for having a solid plan B.. smh
check yahoo’s home page..
bigdave
July 1st, 2010
3:19 pm
damn if you do.. damn if you dont if you’re the Hawks front office..
Peahead
July 1st, 2010
3:19 pm
YOU PEOPLE REALIZE WHEN THIS DEAL IS UP AND HE IS GONE, THE HAWKS WOULD HAVE PAID HIM 200 MILLION DOLLARS FOR HIS TIME HERE !!!!!!! I GUARANTEE NO TITLE, NO CONFERENCE FINALS, JUST A BUNCH OF BLAH BLAH BLAH 50 WIN SEASONS AND FOLDING IN THE PLAY-OFFS
tckr83
July 1st, 2010
3:20 pm
No…
That’s a pretty fair assessment of the contract and how JJ got his stats while here in Atlanta. Who else was here when he first got here? Hence the 25ppg in his best season. It hasn’t been even close to that once since then.
nobody
July 1st, 2010
3:20 pm
seriously yahoo?
tckr83
July 1st, 2010
3:20 pm
Peahead-
Putting things into perspective. Good man.
terrell
July 1st, 2010
3:21 pm
MC, please stop saying “Rook”. Reminds me Woody
dap01
July 1st, 2010
3:21 pm
Reports say that JJ liked what Drew had to say at the meeting. That hints that Drew is telling him how JJ will be used. It does not suggest that JJ will be traded.
I will admit that it is strange that the Hawks management has moved at such a high rate of speed. It is not like them to move so fast. Did they watch the playoffs?
Perhaps JJ can spend part of his salary on a PR firm to repair his image.
Michael Redd
July 1st, 2010
3:24 pm
Atta boy Joe… now just sit back and count your cash. Hope fans won’t get too mad when they’re paying you $20 million to sit on the bench with a couple torn ACLs at the age of 32.
Michael Cunningham
July 1st, 2010
3:24 pm
@terrell: “MC, please stop saying “Rook”. Reminds me Woody”
funny. . . .someone with the Hawks read a blog post where i said he’s Rook’ until July 1, but they told me tradition dictates he must fulfill his rookie obligations until the first game next season.
Sid
July 1st, 2010
3:25 pm
Has this guy ever been tested for drugs? ……….or Sund for that matter………!!!
For Real
July 1st, 2010
3:27 pm
tckr83: “possibly THE BEST SHOOTER OF ALL TIME?” – I’m not talking about Ray’s career. I’m speaking of the present (right here, right now) No one in the NBA would choose Ray or Joe except you.
“Did you watch Joe Johnson at all in the playoffs this year?” – Everyone including Joe knows he didn’t play well in this years playoff but your arguement is Ray played better than Joe. They both played horrible but the fact still remains they are both free agents and no one is taking about give Ray a Max Deal or a sign and trade. So again, no one in the NBA would Ray over Joe. PERIOD!
“You can’t compare Joe Johnson to Lebron James” – Yes you can neither one of them has a ring. They both lost in the playoff this year. They both did not show in the playoff this year. Lebron has his team to the same results that Joe has. And they both pissed off SOME fans. Those are your reason for not signing Joe.
Michael Cunningham
July 1st, 2010
3:27 pm
@G-MAN: thanks for link. i can tell you the Hawks did indeed offer the six-year max.
Michael Cunningham
July 1st, 2010
3:29 pm
@GeeMack: “Are you hearing anything about getting JJ some help, if he signs.”
yes. i will have more details later but the gist of it is ASG is not opposed to paying the luxury tax for the right player(s), and this explains in part why they sold the second-round pick they got from NJN.
MojoD
July 1st, 2010
3:31 pm
Amen ‘Hawksfan’! I mean seriously, what the hell is going on around here? There has to be something more at play than we know about. There’s no freaking way the ASG could possibly be stupid enough to sign this clue to a max contract. 35-111 shooting in the playoffs. Lack of leadership. Aren’t max money players the true face of their franchise? Think about it: How many people do you see walking around with a Joe Johnson jersey? Exactly! I hope they ship his ass of somewhere and I don’t even care what we get in return as long as it’s something. For this clown to insult the city of Atlanta and our fans and now get rewarded with a max contract is absolutely absurd. If this goes down and there is no sign and trade: Bye, Bye Atlanta Hawks. I will NOT and CANNOT give you anymore of my valuable time or money. I’ll miss Phillips Arena, but would rather go see Mylie Cyrus than support these idiots (ASG).