Atlanta Hawks: Attention on centers

first

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As bad as the Hawks could use a center I dont think Brenda is the guy.

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I like Brad Miller and Big Z .

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Im not trying to ignore the big man talk but it seems our 1st step this offseason cant even be made until we know whether JJ is coming back. If JJ waits around to see what goes down with Lebron Wade etc this could hold up alot of the Hawks plans.

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is it even possible that Josh Childress could play for the Hawks next season

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What about gasol from memphis…I say look for some sort of trade. he is 25 and gets 14 points and 9 rebounds and 1.6 blocks. trade trade smith marvin or chill or some sort of package deal to get him. who ever is left out of the three can play the 3 or resign jj and move him to the 3 and start crawford @ the 2.

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Lebron told Larry King cleveland has the edge.
Lebron is not leaving cleveland.
Joe is leaving Atlanta.

I was talking to a buddy of mine about it, telling him that our best bet would be to get Hinrich and Taj for JJ, trade Taj + Zaza for M. Gasol.

But he’s telling me that Gasol is a UFA, possible player option for next year?

Memphis is almost cheaper than the hawks, i don’t know that they’ll match a solid offer.

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Brad Miller would fit in nicely with the Hawks. We need a good passer in the post. Plus he has a nice elbow shot to open up for Josh and Al on offense. He also has a tough attitude which pisses off opponents.

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Teams like the Spurs prove year after year to have an eye for talent. We need to employ the best scouts to scour summer leagues and camps for some rising talent either from overseas, the D-League or the draft. We don’t have $$ to sign anyone and we all know anyone isn’t really available. It’s risky, but something we must investigate persistently.

We all gotta realize JJ is going to hold out till he knows our coach and he knows his options. It’ll probably be like Josh where we wait all summer and then get him on a reasonable deal. We don’t want to overbid like we did with Bibby and Marvin. Hopefully Marvin will flourish under a new coach. Hopefully JJ and JChill will want to be here as well.

Felton would be a good assett to pick up to partner with Teague. We need competition to spur growth, but we also need folks to be rewarded for their efforts.

I think Morris is worth another shot if the new coach will use him. Collins would’ve been funtional if used in the rotation. Using like we did on such a limited basis was unfair to him last year. ZaZa’s efforts will be based on team chemistry. We gelled too early last year and fell apart when it mattered.

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Have you heard if Steve Smith is getting consideration? If /mark Jackson is getting some consideration why not Steve Smith MC?

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I want a cheap Center!!!

DJ Mbenga, Ian Mahinmi, Etan Thomas or Fabricio Oberto…We just need tall bodies.

The Hawks have enough talent offensively, we just need size and deepth..I would prefer Ian Mahinmi and DJ Mbenga, because they both make about 1mil a year.

Bring Sergiy Gladyr the 6′5″ PG/SG and let him battle Teague for the PG spot and sign Wes Mathews or Kyle Korver with the Midlevel exception(If JJ leaves)

P.S I respect ASG’s business model, we can’t all be Billionaires

P.S JJ is coming back…the best place for him is ATL. Only New York would offer him a max deal and he values his privacy too much to live in New York..

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1. Hawks need to trade up for Wesley Johnson, Syracuse – whole package.
2. Shaq would help us tremendously, we don’t need the old Shaq, we just need Shaq.
3. Randolph Morris is the best young center available. Hawks are absolute fools to lose him.
4. Channing Frye would be a helluva stretch 4/3 not a center however. Does make us longer.
5. Who signed Mike Bibby for 3yrs./$18M???

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Fundamentalz- I dont know how we ever let Doc get away from us just doesnt make any sense! Steve Smith would be a great coach and when listening to him speak he has an high basketball iq higher than Mark Jackson and all the other basketball analists

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Forget Haywood. Bring in Kurt Thomas. We need some toughness.

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I’d take Przybilla over Haywood.

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tyger- you have lost all credibility. “Randolph Morris is the best young center available”?!?!!!- wait, you were being sarcastic right?

Ill- what would your goal for next season be? This is going to be a difficult off season to assess. Particularly with the Celtics in the championship. We owned them during the season. Is this team close and just needs better leadership and match ups? I think so, but it would be impossible to make the goal to win a championship when we were eliminated in historic fashion during the second round.

MC- We always could use more front court help, and I actually like Pryzbilla (coming off injury and down year, might be cheaper) Ultimately, we NEED a playmaker at point. I like Teague, but like everyone else including the orginization, we have no idea if he is the real deal or not.

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With all this talk about big men, what are they going to do with zaza. I can’t imagine zaza getting much if any playing time if haywood signs.
If avery is signed, let’s say I don’t feel he would be very keen on zaza at all.

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How long have I been playing in the NBA? Well, I was playing when the “Chocolate Thunder, Rim-Shaking, Earth Quaking dunk happened. And, how many NBA teams have I played for? How many NBA teams are there?

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Rufus1,

“Hinrich, Deng and Turgalou SUCK…They all make more money than Marvin and are NO BETTER. Some of you think they are better, but you need to listen to what their cities say about them…it will sound very familiar to what we say about Marvin.”

They are actually all better than Marvin. Ask yourself this question, if Turk was on our team this year, would teams be able to leave him wide opeen like they did Marvin. Would you rather Marvin wide open for that corner 3 or Turk? Sometimes, you can’t look at numbers, you have to understand basketball a little. If the Hawks actually looked at numbers, do you think we would have traded for Jamal this year. Turk in Atlanta this year, barring injury would have been just as effective as he was last year in Orlando, because he could have run that point forward like he did with Orlando, and no team in their right mind would leave him open like they do Marvin. This in turn would lead to easier shots for Joe, Bibby….. He also can post smaller guys, (something Marvin can’t do) and score on a regular basis out of the post. Sometimes when guys are in bad situations, believe it or not, they have no desire to perform to their best ability. Jamal Crawford is the greatest example of that this year.

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“After crunching the numbers and considering the market, my (subjective) list includes Brendan Haywood, Shaquille O’Neal, Joel Przybilla, Brad Miller and Darko Milicic.”

I’m pretty sure I read somewhere that Darko wants to go back to Europe. Miller has never been a great defender, even in his prime, and it seems to me the Hawks should be looking defense-first when looking for their big man. Shaq’s front-running history tells me he’s going to follow LeBron or Wade somewhere.

This leaves Haywood and Przybilla, who are both good defenders and would both fill the Hawks’ need at center. The Mavs and Haywood probably have mutual interest because Erick Dampier’s contract expires next year, meaning even if Haywood re-ups there long term, he’s probably not going to be a backup for too long; knowing Mark Cuban’s history, he will be more than willing to overpay Haywood to keep him. The Blazers would have an interest in keeping Przybilla, even coming off the injury and even with Marcus Camby on the roster, because of Oden’s injury issues, but I’m guessing they won’t break the bank to keep him either.

So although Haywood would be a better option for the Hawks, Przybilla is probably a more likely and more affordable target.

I’m all for addressing needs through free agency and targeting the best player available in the first round of the draft, where contracts are guaranteed, but I hope that doesn’t mean the Hawks are ruling out the possibility of picking a player at a need position if they are actually worth being picked at that spot, like Dexter Pittman will be in the 2nd round.

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“i’ve tried to get JJ. i don’t know him very well since i just got here but from what i hear he’s notoriously tough to reach in the offseason, even for his teammates.”

So he’s tough to reach for his teammates, but LeBron and Wade don’t seem to have a problem coordinating with him for their little free agent summit… nice to know where his priorities are.

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Star Jackson tranfers from Alabama to Georgia State. Time to get my Panther season tickets.

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@Daniel: My goal for the Hawks next season would be the Eastern Conference Finals. How would I get them there?
First, a sign & trade for Joe. Folks,he just ain’t that in to us,le’t get over it and hook him and the team up in a win-win( he gets the max and the Hawks avoid the tax).
Where : if Chicago, then Hinrick(sp) and Taj Gipson who I then package with Marvin to entice the Hornets to part with Chris Paul-the only superstar who would consider playing in the ATl.They need frontline players and we need a superstar to sell tickets ,one who just happens to meet the Hawk’s most pressing need .

If, New York is where Joe wants to be then I trade him for David Lee and Wilson Chandler who I then try to entice the Hornets to……

And on another tip. I would “ask” All-Star Al to get bigger and stronger and not wilt when the Dwight Howards of the world enter his territory. Come on people,if Ben Wallace could bang with the big boys at 6′ 7″, All-Star Al can do it at 6′ 9″. Then we can get a free agent big or trade for one while we wait for Dexter Pittman to become the “new” Big Baby”.

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Not only is dampier an expiring contract, but it is only partially guaranteed. So they could trade his salary slot to acquire a big name free agent, and dampier’s new team can cut him/buy him out for salary relief.

So I think Haywood goes back to Dallas as the starter (instead of coming here to be a backup).

ILL-logical,

Hornets are not trading CP3. He is the face of the franchise, and very active in the community. Who they might be willing to trade is collision, if we can provide some salary relief, because they are into luxury tax territory.

However, we would probably have to take okafor off their hands to get collison, who would be our starting PG.

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The only reason I don’t see the Hornets trading Collison is because CP3 seems to always get hurt. I doubt they trade a young cheap back up when their starting pg has had the injury bug lately.

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From ESPN:

“SUMMIT HYPE: Despite insistence by Wade’s camp that there will be no “summit” of free-agents-to-be, Carlos Boozer is thinking of possible locations for such a meeting. “Maybe we’ll all go to the Bahamas and have a pow-wow,” he told the South Florida Sun-Sentinel. Another hot rumor: The meeting-that-still-isn’t-happening could go off in Atlanta during June 26-28. ”

If free agents can come here to discuss where they want to go, they can come here to actually sign a contract. Just throwing that out there, for those people who think free agents don’t want to come to our fine city. Nah, they just want to play for teams with owners and front offices that have demonstrated their competence, and in the history of this city, only Ted Turner, Arthur Blank, John Schuerholz, and Bobby Cox have demonstrated that on a long-term basis.

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I’d like to see Randolph Morris production per minute…every time I saw him play he did something good. Every young player that came thru here the last 5 years that wasn’t a top pick was in the dog house, so how can you say this kid has been fairly evaluated?

He dominated the SEC. Was a top recruit coming outta high school. Only mistake he made was declaring for the draft early. If not for that, he would’ve been a to 5-10 pick w/ guaranteed playing time to develop. Instead, he has had to backdoor his way into the league.

Give him a chance with someone with a rep for utilizing his bench properly. How can we discard a kid 7′0, 270 w/ his pedigree and honestly say we need BIGS!

Gearon is right on – “Woody didnt use what he had…”

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cdog,

Don’t rewrite history.

Woodson was quoted last year at this time saying something like:

“I’d like us to re-sign our core free agents (Bibby, Zaza, and Marvin) and then tweak the bench”.

That’s EXACTLY what Sund did. No Woody lover should have a complaint about Sund’s last offseason moves.

Woody sure didn’t.

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I say we package Joe and Marvin and send them to the 76ers for Iguodala and Sam Dalembert. We get a good frontline scorer in Iggy and a tough center in Dalembert. I think most Hawks fans feel either Joe is walking or either we dont want him anyway. But we still have a team to support so we might as well get something for him. I like it because we match Joe’s ability at the 2 spot and we get out from under Marvins contract.

PG Teague/Bibby
SG Iguodala/Crawford
SF Josh Smith/Iguodala/Mo Evans if he doesnt opt out
PF Howard/Josh Smith/Benchplayer
C Dalembert/Horford/Puchalia

fill the bench out but just make sure we have a deadly 3 pt shooter on it.

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cp, no i’m not related to mike woodson.i just believe in during the right thing.in the end rick sund is going to be the one who suffers not woodson.you see, i never said woodson was a great coach.he proved he was a good coach by helping build the team into a playoff contender.in time he will get another job MAYBE THIS YEAR.at least he got to the playoffs.there’s coaches out there at golden state, la clippers,DETROIT PISTONS, sacremento kings, washington wizards just to name a few who would have love to have made the playoffs.woodson didn’t fail to defend dwight howard, miss layups or shots.he was not on the floor playing.the players on the floor did that.the coach can only put them in the right spots, its up to the players to perform once that happens.rick sund should have recognized as you and many others have also, that we were missing a quality set of big men to defend the good teams such as the majic, and celtics who we did beat but in a playoff series, the celtics would have beaten thge hawks without a quality big man.sund just plainly didn’t go out and give woodson what he needed to beat the good teams in a playoff series.like him or not sund is terrible.until the hawks get a quality GM, I DON’T CARE WHO THE COACH IS, THEY WILL LOSE IN THE PLAYOFFS.

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MC…”zaza is a solid backup”

I like zaza…..I think it’s cool that he has the guts to go in and battle. I like his behind his back passes.

I don’t like his slowness, his inability to adapt on the court, and his prowess in grabbing an offensive rebound and somehow losing his grip on the ball before he can raise it over his head into the basket.

This disqualifies him from being a quality backup in my book.

You may find quality backups on the Phoenix suns….players who can actually dominate their opponents when they are on the floor. A quality backup is not the best you can do…..it is someone who adds to the potential of the team.

Why do I care? ZaZa is going to have to go somewhere else and be replaced if the Hawks are serious about advancing. He is a likable liability.

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cdog….I’ll think about what you said……watch New Orleans and think about what I said. I would go with Avery except I can’t get that loss to Golden State out of my mind…….Shouldn’t a competent coach have been able to do something to have won that series? Watch Boston…..when they are working the right way, their players just seem to collapse at the right time just enough bothering the shooter to make him miss…..the spacing…the results…..I have been thinking this was Thibadeau’s contribution….At least you’ll have a chance to judge for yourself….they’re still playing.

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Rod

I would agree with you that Turk is a better for this Atlanta team, but not at 3.5mil per year more.

I would like to pose this question to you…would Marvin only average 11pts in the Toronto run and gun offense, NO…He would average atleast 15pts and 7rbs per game..

No, They are not better players, you may think that, but they are not. A chicago radio talk host decribed Hinrich and Deng as ” average at best”.

Deng..can’t shoot the 3, average defender, average rebounder and always hurt. 12mil

Hinrich..inconsistant shooter and can’t defend the SG. 9mil

The talk host decribed anyone who thinks Deng or Hinrich are players as ” Out of Town Stupid”……Watch a couple of game or some highlights and think they are better, than they are.

If they are better than Marvin……How Much are they WORTH?

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Najeh + Everyone !

Larry Sanders [6-9.25] bare ft. [6-10.5] shoes [222]wgt
[7-5.75] w-span [9.75] hand length [11] hand width,
will be listed 6-11, *supposedly wide frame and shoulders,
therefore can easily add 20+ more lbs.(per NBA draft.net)
*measurements – DraftExpress.

Najeh I agree that we need a ‘Big’ that can ‘Bang’.
Especially (Orlando).
However, Sanders measures out almost the same as ‘Cousins’.
[except] the girth.
He’s *longer than Josh / although not nearly as **athletic.
*barefeet Josh 6-7+ (to) Sanders 6-9+
**athleticism – who is? [Josh]

I doubt Pittman will be around @ our # 2 pick.
If so = no brainer.

I readily agree that we should take the very best
“basketball player” @ 24. I’ve said before,
that G.Vasquez might be that man.

I would be disappointed if we took a defeatist
attitude and sold the pick or traded out of the
1st round or drafted a Euro & stashed him for
8 or 9 years.
Do something positive !

They wonder why fans don’t show?
No news
no trade spec
no info coach search
no good players available to be drafted
nothing coming out of Hawks offices [but silence]
Yet
Go to “Hoops Hype”
every NBA city
something going on
trade spec
FA spec
draft spec
Continuously generating interest.

I’m off my soap box…later.

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Cdog wins…..I’ll accept Avery.

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Cdog wins…..I’ll accept Avery.

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Cdog wins…..I’ll accept Avery.

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1) Mike Woodson DID ask that Bibby, Marvin, and Zaza be re-signed. It was a public quote…

2) Of all the guys being mentioned as interviewing for jobs, have you heard Mike Woodson’s name even ONCE since Doug Collins got the Sixers job and dispelled all those Larry Brown homecoming rumors?

3) Eric Dampier is aging and was never motivated, no matter who coached him or how much money he was paid. I’m sick of getting big guys well after their prime. To get one who was never all that impressive DURING his prime is plain stupid. In the meantime, stop getting them two or three years too late. Time to stop dragging the net at the bottom of the pool, and start making a splash in free agency.

4) Marvin is definitely NOT better than Turkoglu, Deng, or Hinrich. But let’s take this step by step: Comparing Hinrich to Marvin is silly. One is a big SF, the other splits time between PG and SG. But if a comparison can be made, then do it by the scoring numbers. Hinrich wins, both regular season and postseason.

Turkoglu is clearly on the downside and functions much better as a point forward than he does as a traditional SF. Even so, his stats still beat Marvin’s.

Deng makes more money than he’s worth, and right now it’s embarrassingly more. But guess what? Marvin has NEVER been AS GOOD as Deng. Ever. Not in college, not in the pros. More hyped? Yes. Better? Never.

Which brings me to….

5) Another draft gaffe. Guess who got picked after Josh Childress? Luol Deng and Andre Iguodala. You think if Billy “Afro Genius” Knight had picked either of those guys (especially Iguodala), that we would be yapping about “oh, if we can just bring Childress back to America” all summer? Nope, and we wouldn’t be half as worried about losing JJ, either. Instead, we sit here watching re-runs of Marvin’s flops and spills.

Summer makes me cynical, bitter, and impatient. And I don’t care who says I’m beating a dead horse. I’m sick of staring at the carcass that won’t go away.

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@ Rufus1,

What does playing in a run and gun offense have to do with Marvin’s inability to make open shots? What does playing in a run and gun offense have to do with Marvin getting his shot blocked by smaller players? What does playing in a run and gun offense have to do with Marvin stumbling and fumbling? Sure, he might average more points, but he will not be very efficient.

@ MC,

ZaZa is a solid backup. I just think he doesn’t mesh well with our team based on our shortcomings. Al and Josh are 6′9″, 6′10″, 245. We need a 7 footer who can be physical. ZaZa’s best defensive move is to foul.

Even if Pryzbilla had an issue with the Hawks, we now have a different GM and a different coach, so I dont think he would have an issue coming here. Portland might let him go, because with Oden’s injury history, they might want to look for a healthier option at center. Would they want ZaZa in a trade?

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Pryzbilla isn’t likely going to opt-out and then take a 1-year deal and Haywood won’t likely need to settle for a one-year deal..Why am I talking about one year deals? Because Horford’s raise is due in about 13 months and unless something significant changes, I don’t see the ASG paying upwards of $30M on Smith, Horford and a back-up center (don’t forget that Zaza is around $5M also)…. that would make very little sense.

So I think you may want to lower your sights to guys that are more likely to accept a short-term deal (like maybe 1-2 years at most) and less than $4M. I’m thinking about names like Tony Battie, Kwame and maybe Brad Miller. Would JON take such a deal?

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Pryzbilla is never coming here. He said so when the Hawks jettisoned him years ago.

Tony Battie would be fine….as our new big man coach. We gotta quit getting guys AFTER they have ceased their ability to play the game effectively.

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My $30M estimate above EXCLUDES Zaza… I’m guessing Horford gets no less than $15M/year unless there is a significant change in the next CBA. An All-Star center who is only getting better won’t likely accept a deal that is comparable to the one signed by Josh. (Again, unless there is a shocking change in the market or CBA).

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@MC, the last free agent to get more then $3M from the Hawks was Speedy Claxton in 2006. But of Al is truly “demanding” a center (and may ultimately decide to include that in his decision-making next summer), then ,maybe they will step up to the plate and spend some cash. But I have my doubts.

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If I was the Hawks I would try to make a run for Haywood AND Ratliff (Ratliff for a little over the minimum).

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I wonder if we can package a deal that could send Josh Smith and Josh Childress for Amare Stoudamire.

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Just send Josh Smith to Orlando for Marcin Gortat & Brandon Bass. Gortat wants to start and Bass wants more playing time as well. Atlanta has their true center for 4 more years and a legit backup PF for 3 more years. If its not even, draft picks can be involved.

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And I would sign Channing Frye in a heartbeat – I know he’s not big and physical for and NBA Center, but the guy can play.

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Cdog . . to illustrate your point, I’ll remind these people of the guys we could’ve acquired last year

* Let’s start with Mr. Crawford. A great pickup by Sund. But we didn’t HAVE to trade for that dude. Crawford improved us definitely, but we weren’t winning a title with that squad last year, unless he and JJ played like superstars. And remember, Acie and Speedy would’ve been expiring contracts going into this summer. So let’s say we DON’T do the Crawford deal.

* This is for you Najeh . . . instead of Teague, the guy we could’ve had was DEJUAN BLAIR . . the exact type of bulky rebounder you’re talking about. Blair was a top 10 – 15 pick who freefalled through the draft because all of these NBA GMs are idiots . . with the exception of San Antonio . . who had sense enough to take dude in the 2nd round.

* So what do we do for a PG? How about going out to get Andre Miller . . the penetrating, pass-first, decent defending PG that we so desperately need here. How about renouncing the rights to Chill and Bibby ( whose cap hold last summer was JJ-like ), and make a run at Dre? You think he would’ve loved to run the point in ATL, with JJ as a shooter, and Smoove as a finisher to pass the ball to?

* How about Marvin? Remember . . he was a RESTRICTED FREE AGENT last summer. We didn’t have to offer him a deal ( even though most Hawk fans agreed that the 5yr deal for 38 mill was a “fair deal” for Marvin ). We could’ve let him play for the Qualifying Offer of 7 mill . . or waited until someone gave him an offer sheet.

* Zaza was the one guy we probably HAD to hold onto, but he was an unrestricted free agent, and we could’ve sent him walking too. But say we keep Zaza for the same price.

* So now we have the MLE to maybe add additional people. Oh . . I don’t know. Maybe bring in Jerry Stackhouse? Bring back Flip Murray? Juan Dixon ( who should’ve made the squad )? Maybe a box office draw like Allen Iverson ( who was desperate to play for SOMEBODY )?

Decide on 2 players to split the MLE on.

Sund had all kinds of options last summer. So for whatever moves he made or didn’t make, that’s on HIM.

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So let’s set the team for 2009 – 10

G – Miller ( 4yrs – 28 to 30 million )
G – JJ ( expiring contract – 15 million )
F – Marvin ( expiring contract – 7 million )
F – Smoove
F/C – Horford

Bench

G – Law ( expiring contract – if we don’t pick up team option – 2 million )
G – Stackhouse or Iverson or Flip ( 1yr – 2 to 2.5 million )
F – Evans ( ability to opt out in 2010 – 2.5 mill off the books if he does )
F – Dejuan Blair
C – Zaza

G – Speedy ( expiring contract – 5 million )
C – Morris ( expiring contract – 900K )

****************

I’ll say that this squad right here could’ve at least obtained the 4th spot in the East, and possibly won 47 – 51 games. We’d still lose in the 2nd round, due to the lack of a quality big man. But we’d be in MUCH BETTER POSITION for the 2010 free agency period, depending on what we wanted to do with the expiring contracts.

But the Crawford signing, combined with holding on to Chill, is really the thing that’s keeping us from making a major play for one of these free agents, should JJ sign elsewhere.

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Isn’t it funny how Los Angeles Lakers are in the NBA Finals. And they have one of the highest payrolls in the league. Yet, they’ve emerged as the favorites to sign Chris Bosh. I think the Hawks should be aggressive in going after one of the big free agents and seeing about a sign and trade deal. Crawford’s expiring deal would be perfect in making the deal happen. Also why isn’t JJ lobbying to try and get another big ticket free agent to come and visit the Hawks? As it’s been said many times, if you take the big tickets off of their current roster, the remaining players on each team all come second to the Hawks without JJ. So out of the possible destinations, the Hawks are the closest to title contention. And they’re actually the only team that made it to the 2nd round.

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nc – with all due respect, your scenario was disjointed & diffuse.

Everyone’s all over the place tonite. Channing Frye says he wants
to stay in PHX.

Some fella last eve on pod-cast, suggested we “would” pkg.
Marv & Jamal sooner or *later *[trade deadline] for a *franchise
type player to pair with Joe. He would not elaborate as to
the caliber *[franchise] only saying ‘not’ Carmelo (caliber).
I gathered someone in the *O.J. Mayo category.
*Just a player of that caliber, not necessarily him. [Mayo]
A young up & coming, yet promising future all-star.

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cdog:

“BELIEVE ME, RICK SUND IS SUPER TERRIBLE.HE’S BEYOND BAD.”

cdog – I must disagree.
He’s done nothing, [here], to draw that malevolence.

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I mean damn . . we’re holding onto Josh Childress like he’s a collection of 17th century gold coins found on a pirate ship. If that dude doesn’t want to come back to us this year, and if Sund or the ASG don’t want to extend a multi-year contract to Chill . . THEN RENOUNCE THAT DUDE . . GET HIM OFF THE BOOKS.

No sense keeping “dead money” like that around for more than one season. Cut your losses and move on.

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Najeh, I’m struggling to see how Blair would’ve been better than Sheldon Williams. Now because he was drafted by the Spurs and came out ok, it seems like the Hawks could’ve taken him, but I don’t see it.

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“even though most Hawk fans agreed that the 5yr deal for 38 mill was a “fair deal” for Marvin ”

Based on last year’s production and the reasonable assumption that a 23-year-old would improve, it was a fair deal. What makes it such an atrocious looking deal right now is that Marvin got significantly worse this year. If he put up 15 and 6 on 46% shooting with good defense and 36% 3-point-shooting this year — a reasonable expectation based on his production from the last two seasons — his contract would be acceptable and movable.

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@ grandad . . . you are more than welcome to disprove anything I said in that scenario. Everything I said was very possible:

* we didn’t have to trade for Crawford, and kept the expiring contracts of Law and Speedy

* we could’ve drafted Dejuan Blair, to address our rebounding issues

* we could’ve renounced Chill, to get his 10 mill cap hold off the books

* we could’ve renounced Bibby to get his 15+ million cap hold off the books.

* we then could’ve been enough under the cap to make a serious play for Andre Miller to FINALLY address the PG position.

* we then could’ve brought back Zaza

* and with our MLE money, we could’ve signed 1, maybe 2 low priced free agents ( other than those scrubs Joe Smith and Jason Collins ). Blair would’ve made both of those guys obsolete.

* and when the summer of 2010 came around, we’d be in better position to compensate for the loss of JJ, by adding starter quality free agents.

That is as clear and concise as I can make this. If you want to dispute any of this, go right ahead.

If Woody was calling the shots behind the scenes personnel wise, and Sund was just going with the flow, the ASG should’ve just named Wooody as GM and never hired Sund.

We’ll see if this dude can make his money this year, without just going along with “Woody’s Plan”.

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The more I think about it, after my 11:41 post, when I used
OJ Mayo as an example, the more I liked the idea. People on
this board have brought up his name [Mayo] before and I haven’t
thought much about it, but now, he may be just the ticket.
With Joe, a running mate / wingman. They could play together
in the same backcourt [when Teaguer rests].
If Joe leaves, he gives Josh & Al an outside scoring threat
for balance.
I wonder if Memphis would turn him loose & do we have the
chips (Marv, Jamal, Childress, Bibby, Zaza, pkg.) that would
entice Memphis?

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nc – I didn’t say any of it was untrue, therefore,
no need to justify. I said it was diffuse. Too many
parts to untangle all @ once. If you’re looking @
Mr. Sund’s record and or accomplishments over the
short time he has been here and you are correcting
all his percieved mistakes then all that you said
is true to the extent that everything
he did and has accomplished were true as well.
History has not proven that he has not made
a mistake at this point so your counterpoint is
therefore also neither right or wrong.

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We should sign frye but we need to rebuild, point blank we cant win a championship with who we have period…… we need to trade joe and jamal for potential and picks.

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“G – Miller ( 4yrs – 28 to 30 million )
G – JJ ( expiring contract – 15 million )
F – Marvin ( expiring contract – 7 million )
F – Smoove
F/C – Horford

Bench

G – Law ( expiring contract – if we don’t pick up team option – 2 million )
G – Stackhouse or Iverson or Flip ( 1yr – 2 to 2.5 million )
F – Evans ( ability to opt out in 2010 – 2.5 mill off the books if he does )
F – Dejuan Blair
C – Zaza

G – Speedy ( expiring contract – 5 million )
C – Morris ( expiring contract – 900K )”

Here’s the problem with your scenario — and I know you’ll disagree — with Woody as the head coach, there’s no way this team tops 50 wins. Dre Miller can’t shoot 3’s, and with the iso-Joe offense, a point guard who can shoot 3’s is more important than a point guard who can, you know, do point guard things like driving inside and setting up teammates. (Let’s ignore for now that Bibby can’t really shoot consistently anymore either.) The Hawks had a hard enough time spacing the floor with Bibby and Crawford on the team; with neither one around, iso-Joe would fail even more often as Joe wouldn’t have room to drive or shooters to pass the ball to.

We already know Woody wasn’t going to play Acie, and we already know Zaza was mostly ineffective this year. We know Randolph Morris wouldn’t get playing time (and even if he did, there’s no guarantee he’d be effective), and we know Speedy is unreliable. Between Stackhouse, Iverson, and Flip, it’s most likely they would have kept Flip since he was on the team the previous year, and of course Mo Evans would have been there. Knowing Woody’s mixed track record with rookies, who knows whether he would have played Blair enough for him to make an impact — my guess is Blair would have been the 2nd big man off the bench behind Zaza, meaning his minutes and impact would have been limited.

So really, you’re looking at basically the same team that got swept by the Cavs last year, except with Miller replacing Bibby. Starting lineup would have been Miller, Joe, Marvin, Smoove, and Al, while Flip, Mo, and Zaza would get the lion’s share of any bench minutes with Blair likely receiving spot duty and the rest of them riding the pine. That’s a slight upgrade at point guard in terms of talent (not necessarily in terms of fit) and a significant downgrade on the bench. My guess is that team finishes with the same 46-47 wins they had the previous year, possibly falling behind Milwaukee to the 5th seed and losing in the first round.

Now it is definitely true that the Hawks would have more cap flexibility this offseason — about $7 million more. This would probably give them enough space to sign a max player, especially if they renounced Childress (assuming one wanted to sign here). But I don’t think there’s any way they make it to 50 wins or the 2nd round with that team.

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“No way does that dude get a pass for what happened last year, or the position we’re in this summer.”

I’ll co-sign this, but more than what he did last offseason, it’s what he does this offseason that will define his success or failure as the Hawks’ GM. If he keeps Joe and is able to add the big man and depth the Hawks need to reach the next level, or if he lets Joe walk and is able to pull off a trade (like the Crawford + bad contracts for Collison + bad contracts trade I keep bringing up) that addresses some of the Hawks’ weaknesses, his shortcomings last offseason will mostly be redeemed. If he can’t do this, we will be calling for his head.

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Najeh . . I agree somewhat about the squad overall. But Miller would’ve easily averaged at least 14 pts and 7 assists as PG for us.

The fallacy constantly stated on this board, is tha our offense consisted of nothing but ISO-JJ. You mak can say that for the bulk of the 4th quarter, but not the bulk of the game. Just because JJ served as the “bail out guy” when the shot clock runs down, doesn’t mean that he held the ball for 20 seconds, then decided to shoot. A lot of times, he got the ball back with 10 seconds, and was expected to make a play with the clock running down ( ala Brandon Roy in Portland ).

But back to Miller.

Woody has never had a capable PG who could break people down like a Miller, plus set people up. Woody has always been flexible with his vet PGs, and letting them do what they can do.

He had no problem letting Anthony Johnson run the show for a while. I never saw that alley-oop from the 3 point line that we run for Smoove via JJ, until AJ started doing it for Marvin on occasion.

The same went fo Bibby. When Bibby was healthy, he let Bibby run the team.

So there’s no doubt in my mind that Woody would let a proven PG like Miller do his thing as well. ISO-JJ wouldn’t disappear, but Miller would have us run more pick and rolls with our big men. That’s one of his strengths as a player, and Woody wouldn’t relegate him to playing off the ball.

JJ pretty much had to have the ball a lot, because he was the guy good enough to get his own shot as well as set people up. Woody would have no problem letting a vet like Dre run the show, because of his ability to get to the rim.

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SIGN AVERY AS THE COACH.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!

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SIGN FREE AGENT AL HARRINGTON.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!

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ever since sekou left, it’s just not the same around here:

1: randolph morris is not an NBA player, please don’t resign him – he quit on the game during high school; some one on here said he “dominated” the SEC and left school too early; his best season was his jr. year (06-07) where he averaged 16 and 8; a meager college career at best for a 3rd year player

2: a true starting point guard should be here regardless of if we resign JJ, but it shouldn’t be ANDRE MILLER OR KIRK HINRICH; both guys are unathletic and aren’t “true” point guards in the sense of the word; hinrich shoots 41.9% for his CAREER and only averages 4 assists for his CAREER (i repeat); miller can’t shoot 3’s (CAREER average 20.9% – pathetic) and is not as willing of a passer in his older years because he’s extremely lazy at this point in his career (less than 7 assists per game over the last 3 seasons as a starter and only a 7.2 CAREER average)

3: JEFF TEAGUE is the best solution we have at a true point guard (see his final game of the regular season against CLE minus LBJ) unless we can trade for darren collison/chris paul (highly unlikely) or some how ERIC BLEDSOE falls to us in the upcoming draft (he’s projected anywhere from 15th to 36th in 9 different mock drafts i’ve seen); ERIC BLEDSOE was the second highest rated guard in the country behind JOHN WALL, and played the 2 because he had to – unbelievable talent that we cannot pass up if he’s there; i believe MC just wrote an article about how the 24th spot won’t yield any long term fruit, but he obviously knows nothing about basketball (tony parker, manu ginobili, dejuan blair, gerald wallace, darren collison – ALL drafted 24th or lower in the last 10 yrs – and that’s just off the top of my head)

4: SIGN AND TRADE JJ for players that fill HIS role (a la JOHN SALMONS or RUDY GAY + other players, picks, or cash); OR, let JJ walk and sign a guy like RAY ALLEN to a 1 year deal at a higher price than other teams would be willing to pay him per season at his age.

5: MARK JACKSON is the most suitable replacement for taking this team to the NEXT LEVEL; we NEED to take a risk and not go the “safe route” here; we NEED a coach who is willing to work with the personnel we have and HELP them to believe in themselves as a TEAM; woody was a divider and MARK JACKSON can be a uniter if given a chance; remember, AVERY J. was at the right place at the right time in terms of being considered a “winning” coach; everyone knows he’s too overbearing for our guys – again, whether JJ resigns here or not; casey, or whomever else sund is considering do not fit the personality of our TEAM;

Believe me, we are a coach who commands respect (but is still player friendly) away from being a contender – again whether JJ signs here or not.

Now I’ll tell Mr. Sund & Gearon Jr. what they should do:

Let JJ walk and sign RAY ALLEN to an overpriced 1yr/10mil deal. He’s 80% of JJ at 33, and JJ won’t be as efficient as RAY RAY after 2 yrs on his max deal he’s about to sign. JESUS would also bring some class to our city for a moment. Go get a JOEL PRYZBILLA or a SHAQ at the midlevel to bring off the bench. Add a dead eye 3 point shooter or two (i know some one is out there who can shoot better than MO or CHILLS). Do something with CHILLS’ contract – ANYTHING! Hang BIBBY & ZAZA out on a billboard and pray some one’s dumb enough to take on their contracts for anything useful. We’d have tons of $ coming off the books after 2010-2011 season and be ready to pay BIG AL the following summer. We’d still be a top tier team, AND we’d be in a prime position to build for the future at the same time. Don’t trade SMOOVE!!! He may have motivational problems, but a new coach is going to change him. The dude played for a guy who is notorious for riding young players hard, and has improved his game each year, despite a lack of coaching or encouragement from the fans. A true point guard in the starting role will CHANGE the entire dynamic of this team. If you have horses, you NEED TO RUN THEM. We have horses!!! The reason MARVS looks like an idiot is because BIBBY AND JJ have dribbled out 90% of our shot clocks over the last 2 years. The other 10% of the time, we looked like we could beat anybody, anywhere – due to pure talent!! A respectable and likable coach, along with a few KEY personnel moves will solve the Atlanta Basketball quandry. We are sooooooo close, and yet we are a couple of idiotic moves from oblivion once again! Regardless of what actually happens, get ready for a WILD SUMMER HAWKS’ FANS….

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2010 ATLANTA HAWKS AVERY COACHING
STARTER MONTA ELLIS, JOE, CHILL, JOSH, HORFORD,
BENCH TEAGUE, JAMAL, MOE, AL HARRIGNTON, SOLOMON ALABI
RESERVE BIBBY, MORRIS.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!

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worst case scenario under my plan…

lineup:
PG – Teague
SG – Ray Ray, aka Jesus Shuttlesworth
SF – Marvs
PF – Smoove
C – Big Al

bench: crawford, shaq, bibs, bledsoe (hopefully), zaza, chills’ contract’s cap room, kyle korver, mike miller, and/or roger mason on the cheap cheap, brad miller or the first Big Z on the cheap cheap

this would put is between 64-69 million cap-wise.. depending on the salary cap next year, we could be looking nice under the right conditions.

personnel & chemistry + quality coaching, management & ownership = championship

Somebody save us from another heartless playoff ending!! We work too hard during the regular season to give up when it matters.. Just look where BOSTON is now.. that could’ve been us with the right coach.. that should’ve been the HAWKALIERS with the right coach.. where’s the DOC when you need him?? oh yeah, he’s in BOSTON.. and how bout that TOM THIBIDEAU – why not be seeking permission to interview him?? he’s player friendly, defensive minded and pretty much the co-coach on the team we beat 4 times this year that about to win their second title in 3 years.. i don’t want to bet against KOBE and PHIL, but the lakers are SOFT.. if BOSTON is healthy enough, they are hangin #18

peace, love & goodnite from the heart of Hawksville.

McHawkmick, aka blonju, aka the ghost of sekou smith

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Tony,

championship coaches aren’t sitting around waiting on the Hawks’ to find them… in the real world, THIBIDEAU might be the closest thing possible to what your looking for but could end up being the second coming of woody… i agree that Sund’s track record does not provide a true fan with much hope for the right championship ‘tweaks’ being made… sometimes, a championship coach has to be made… or perhaps you are right?! maybe we need to go find RUDY TOMJONAVICH?!?! i’m pretty sure popovich, zenmaster, larry brown, doc rivers and pat riley are the only coaches to win titles in the last 20 years, besides TOMJONAVICH.. whoa, that’s startling just to say it out loud.. before that it was late Chuck Daly with the 89-90 pistons… anyways, you couldn’t be more right about championship management & coaches… and honestly, unless Rick Sund grows a huge pair of testicles and a brain, the Falcons and Braves have MUCH better chances of bringing ATL a title… it’s sad, but true Hawks’ fans… i’m too much of a fan to ever give up, but to quote the computer in “I ROBOT” – my logic is undeniable… and so is tony’s… ANYWAYS, i’m a die hard fan, so GO HAWKS!!!!

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@ blonju:

1) Agreed . . . Randolph Morris is garbage for the most part.

2) Miller doesn’t waste time shooting a lot of 3 point jumpers, because he’s trying to get to the rim . . which is exactly what we need at the PG position. A guy who can get to the rim and FINISH . . unlike young Mr. Teague. LOL @ scoffing at a 7.2 career assist average. You can maybe name 4 other guys in the league who can say they have dished out 7 assist + for their entire career ( Paul, Deron, Kidd, Nash ). Great . . let’s put the hopes of the Hawks on Teague, based off of his great performance vs the Cleveland scrubs in the final game of the season. Makes perfect sense.

3) Teague is only the best option, if he can prove he can get it done. If not, you’ll see a lot of Crawford at the 1, and Bibby backing him up, even with the new coach.

4) JJ has the power in a sign and trade, because he can choose where he wants to go. I can guarantee you that it will not be Milwaukee. And it’ll only be Memphis if he doesn’t want max money, and desperately wants to stay close to home. We just can’t sign and trade JJ to whomever WE want him to go. JJ has the final say-so in a sign and trade.

5) It’s amazing how many people want basketball commentators who have never been head coaches in their lives, to coach the Hawks. Talk about setting the bar low. Fan logic = “Smitty says that Marvin should shoot quicker . . OMG . . I think that too!! . . let’s make him our new coach”

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@northcyde

i agree that putting our hopes in teague is risky but you are acting like andre miller is 5 yrs younger.. i’ll take him 5 yrs ago, but his age and lack of athleticism are finally catching up and his inability to shoot is more evident than ever.. i agree that a 7.2 career assist average is more than modest, but on the downside of his career, his numbers are only going to get worse.. teague would certainly average at least 7 assists with starters’ minutes regardless of how much he can’t shoot or defend (just like Miller).. and to say Teague can’t finish is a joke – he had more dunks than randmo, joe smith, jason collins, and zaza combined, while averaging less than 10 minutes a game.. i don’t believe andre miller has ever even dunked the ball.. please don’t tell me HE would make this team better.. on the JJ front, if we can’t sign and trade him, we gotta let him walk – he’s just NOT worth a max deal for 4 or 5 years.. Ray Allen is more than a servicable replacement in the interim.. as far as coaches are concerned, i’m wondering if you REALLY think Avery Johnson is any better than Mark Jackson.. we are talking about a guy who went from retired player, to analyst, to 2-year stint in Dallas with loads of talent (and no postseason success), and then back to analyst/coach/GM wannabe.. the hawks would’ve done no worse this past season had Mark Jackson been the coach.. i don’t really want MJ, but as far as guys who have been interviewed, his personality suits our team best.. he could be the next doc rivers – avery certainly is not.. you’ve got to give guys a chance sometime.. if you have any better suggestions, i welcome them, but re-signing JJ and bringing in Avery will NOT get us ‘over the hump’ – we’ll be out in the 2nd round at best.. we need a revolution, not another regime!

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oh, and northcyde: other guys averaging 7 assists for their career who are active: LBJ, B. Davis, Rondo, D-Wade, R. Westbrook, and even Ray Felton has a career 6.4 average … the point is that Andre Miller will only be less productive in the few years he has left and his style of play is completely the opposite of what we need considering our personnel – he’s methodical, half-court, and increasingly more inefficient.. 5.4 to 2.2 assist to turnover ratio last year.. the man is 6′2, OVER 200 lbs, and 34 – not the answer! don’t forget he’s signed for 2 more years at 7 million per.. portland is stuck with him and nobody wants him.. much like we are with the bibster.. teague is a fraction of the cost and we need to see what we have here.. i’m not even a big teague fan, but he’s the answer for now, barring a trade that fits our personnel and chemistry.. Bring on more coaching suggestions!!

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Avery Will Make The Hawks A Better Team For Now And The Future. First Of All The Hawks Want Be Able To Do What They Want On The Floor With Avery. You Got To Follow Team Rules Or Sit.
Its Time To Get To The Next Level Bring On Avery And Get Past The Second Round In Play-Offs Next Season.
We Have Seen Coaches In The Past Have No Control Of Players: DO WE NEED ANOTHER WEAK COACH FOR 4 MORE YEARS. BRING ON A WINNER, I VOTE FOR AVERY JOHNSON.

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For guards and SFs…..Cleveland is looking for a 1st round pick. I’d trade them Bibby (who they’ve had interest in before) & the 24th pick for Delonte West (who can be cut because his salary in non-guaranteed)…..Re-sign Joe & Chill….Use the full MLE on John Salmons….Use this year’s 2nd, next year’s 2nd and Houston’s 2nd next year if needed, to trade up and draft Vasquez.

Teague / Crawford
Johnson / Salmons / Vasquez
Williams / Childress
Horford / Bass
Gortat / Pachulia / Petro

Most of this is very reasonable except for the Bibby deal (who knows), and whether Salmons will take a deal to be Joe’s backup.

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Even if this offseason it’s hot garbarge…

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And as for Smith for Gortat and Bass? Are you insane? Have you ever watched the NBA before? That has to be the most idiotic trade suggestion I’ve heard since Pau Gasol for Kwame Brown. Now wait…that’s a better deal than the one you suggest….for Memphis!!!! Bring in 2 losers who don’t even start on their choking losing team to replace arguably our best overall player? You must be Jerry West!!! Or Otis Smith one. Dumb Dumb Dumb. Gortat is adequate at best. Bass is a PF backup at best. Josh is an All Star(snub). You know what Jo Jo. Root for the Magic! You love their subs so much obviously. Trade our future for their chokers? No thanks.

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john brown….”their chokers” beat down your all star (snub). josh smith was whining to anyone that would listen, which was no one. at least gortat and bass came out after their loss and said we need more playing time. it’s not their fault that Van Gundy runs Dwight and 4 shooters all game long. dallas thought enough of gortat to offer him their starting center position before orlando matched. who better to defend dwight howard than the guy that has gone against him in practice every day for the last two years. the trade balances the hawks’ roster. no more guys playing out of position.

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PLEASE DO NOT MENTION DARKO’S NAME AND HAWKS BASKETBALL IN THE SAME SENTENCE….THANKS….

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Y’ALL NEVER SHOULD LISTEN TO A WOODY LOVER, IF YA DIDN’T KNOW THAT BY NOW

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Ken, sorry but it may be all what Woody’s wanted, but it still was ultimately Sund’s decision! Sund could’ve held ground and to inform Woody of the type of team that he wanted to build, the way that BK did. Aside from Speedy Claxton, BK drafted the type of players that he thought would be able to be interchangeable. Til this day I still think BK is a better GM than Sund is. For one, it took Sund 2 seasons to realize what BK knew three years ago, that Woody couldn’t take this team far. Sund has been giving a lot more resources than BK was even granted in terms of money. And Sund is also operating without the dark ownership cloud operating over his head. Out of the top seven players on the Hawks, Sund has only brought in one of them, Crawford (JJ, Josh, Al, Bibby, Marvin, Zaza, Crawford).

Everyone talks about BK misses in two main drafts. But they fail to mention that BK has drafted three all-stars, and two for the Hawks (Gasol— Horford, and Josh). 2 out of 4 isn’t bad, especially when the two you hit on are future all stars, and one of them is an all defensive player. BK’s career in the draft isn’t any worse than Donnie Walsh’s, Larry Bird, Kiki, Jerry West, Rod Thorn, Pat Riley’s, and many others. Many of them hit 50% of the time, and miss 50% of the time. When BK was here, the Hawks weren’t willing to take on an additional contract like Crawford’s.

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Ken, I’m for that agreement. I think this same roster (even though I would add Haywood, Brewer, and/or Felton) can be successful next year, and it would truly depend on the development of Teague. I think most of it will depend on Teague’s attitude. If Teague comes out with an attack mindset on the defense and offensive end, then this team will bring a different mentality totally. Aside from JJ and Mario, you never seen any one (also aside from Teague) pressure the ball all the way up court. I think small things like that will give a mental advantage to the Hawks over many other teams because the entire starting lineup are so good in the passing lanes.

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Robdawg, the Bulls didn’t have a real good center. The Piston had Ben Wallace, and he’s no better than Horford is (no taller either). The Bad Boys Pistons only had Laimbeer who is grossly overrated. In the late 80s Parrish was injured majority of the times, yet it still didn’t stop Boston from winning multiples.

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@the supposed ghost of Sekou Smith: I know your really not the ghost of Sekou because Sekou could never write that many words without typing the name Kobe at least 10 times. Also MC has a good understanding of something Sekou could never quite figure out and that is a little thing called the NBA SALARY CAP. Its kind of pointless to throw trades and potential free agent signings out there without knowledge of it.

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HawkingB. @ 915 AM

Thank God! & Co-Sign that !!!

Geez what’s with all the dreamers?

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What ever center we get he will be our STARTING CENTER! So trade I cant block shots horford.

By the way. I wish you well on your prostrate cancer ken. You and I disagree, but I do wish you well as a person.

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I see Truth Serum is still with us. Welcome to summer canniblogging….

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RAMON-I’m certain you’ve noticed that Sund isn’t a confrontational type GM like BK was. Rather than dictate what he wanted from Woodson, he gave him a 2yr extension, the players he wanted, room to operate, and the rope to hang himself, which he ended up doing. We’re in agreement on everything else. And, we can’t blame BK for not drafting either CP3 or DWilliams, since it was Woodson, not BK, who publicly stated his doubts about their ability to be productive at the NBA level.

As far as Teague’s attitude, he entered training camp and preseason with that attacking attitude, and was outstanding in both instances. We saw the same attitude and outstanding performance from ALaw and SStaudemire when they entered training camp and preseason. It was Woodson’s attitude and approach that caused their attitude and approach to change, as well as affect their overall confidence.

I definitely like the idea of signing Brewer, or even DWilkins, but I don’t think we have much chance of getting BHeywood. Dallas wants him back, and he knows he has a solid chance of replacing EDampier as their starting center. There’s no chance of him replacing AHorford, unless JSmith is traded. You don’t trade a young, talented, athletic, still improving and maturing talent like Smoove just to acquire a past his prime center who hasn’t equaled the performance of your current center.

Horford’s career scoring average of 12PPG is higher than Heywood’s highest single season scoring average of 10.2PPG. Heywood has a higher blocked shot average, but that’s due in part to him playing on teams with very porous DEF’s. Horford’s shot blocking total has been affected by him having to play out of position, like being forced to play PG’s and SG’s on the perimeter in Woodson’s beloved Bibby hiding switching DEF.

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Najeh davenpoop monta ellis want out of goldenstate he just sold his home out there and bought his new home in memphis, so why not do a sign and trade for him goldenstate already have a point guard and there are some must changes out there, maybe marvin and zaza for monta ellis can make the cut who noes but the hawks have make a strong decision on teague there is a big Q mark there.
GO HAWKS!!!!!
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!

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THANKS TRUTH SERUM-You are living proof that when the chips are down, Hawk fans will always turn things around, THANKS.

ASTRO JOE-you brought up a good point. In every case, except for Horford, JChildress and JSmith, rookies regressed after their rookie yr under Woodson. At least those who actually got a chance to play.

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There is a rumor out there that Minnesota is willing to move the #4 pick with Al Jefferson for a proven veteran. Would you be willing to move Josh Smith and our #1 pick for Jefferson and their #1 pick?

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Allan, one word – NO! A front line of Al and Jefferson would be too stiff on the front line. And Jefferson really isn’t all that athletic to match up with Dwight Howard anyway. I’d move Crawford, Zaza, and our 1st for Jefferson and the 4th pick.

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Ramon,

I don’t think there is any way Dallas lets Haywood leave. Mark Cuban will pay him to stay (Dampier is an expiring, and only partially guaranteed), so Haywood will be the starter. If he comes here, he will be the backup.

And keep in mind that Rick Sund usually takes his own (slow) time anyway, so I don’t see Sund making any moves until the JJ situation is resolved. Plus if JJ leaves in a sign and trade, he wont be sure what he can get in return. And if JJ stays, I hope Sund explores trading Crawford.

For those calling for Siler, I think Dexter Pittman in the second round is a better selection. Pittman played at a big time program (Texas), and looked decent (when he wasn’t fouling out, or being too tired). If he gets his weight and endurance under control, he could provide spot minutes at Center.

Maurice Cheeks (former sixers HC and now an assistant with OKC) is available too. Anyone interested? Regardless of who we hire, I just hope he has an experienced group of assistants, and I hope he is flexible.

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Everyone’s talking about a starting center, but is Josh Smith moving to small forward really a great idea?

With his average ball-handling and below average jumpshot, I wasn’t so sure at first. But then I began to think, wouldn’t he be an upgrade over Marvin Williams? I could go either way with one. But this only works if Joe comes back, considering our offensive output may drop a bit with Josh playing out of the post, as he’s likely to take more low percentage shots.

Still, the Hawks probably should make a run at Haywood. Not that I actually agree that Horford isn’t an above average center, but we can infer from his comments that the guy just doesn’t seem happy to be playing center. And like the saying goes, always take care of those who take care of you. The last thing any team needs is an unhappy star. Those teams usually don’t perform so well.

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Thanks Big Ray and O’Brien. I have no idea what game Rufus1 is watching. I do recall Hinrich guarding MArvin in the post this year, and being successful.

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Michael, is it possible that Sund is waiting for Dallas to come knocking for Joe? The Hawks could trade Joe & Bibby for Dampier and Caron Butler. Of course Dampier’s contract would be voided and leave the hawks with cap space to grab a combo guard (mike miller/anthony morrow). Next, they could try and trade J. Crawford for a draft pick and acquire a young big in the draft. With the 24th draft pick select Dominique Jones/Terrico White and improve their perimeter defence. Does any of this make GM logic?

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Ramon – Don’t give BK cred for drafting Gasol
then pre-arranging a trade prior to the draft
for SAR. If he knew Gasol was gonna be Gasol
then why arrange a trade before the draft.
Obviously *Portland orchestrated the choice.
*[or Vancouver or where-ever the heck SAR came from]

((( Bravo Mr. Strickland )))

JoJo the Godfather:
Your trade as was concieved (including Josh) I must defer.
However, a smaller transaction, picking up Bass – I’m most
comfortable with. Although Orl. would be reluctant to trade
within the division.

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we need to try and get Javale McGee from the Washington Wizards.this guy gives the hawks bigs much trouble when they play them.he,s young and can run the floor really well,he would be a graet addition to our team real good defense also. Mr Sund please give it some thought

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The Ayatollah yea you’re post pretty much summed it up perfectly.

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lol Big Ray. If you are still willing to see what Marvin can do with a new coach then my brother you have a lot more patience than me. I have given up all hope with that cat. I just don’t see how a new coach will be able to fix things such as his inability to finish in traffic, dribble the ball without falling and the many other goofy things he does on the court. Like I keep saying, that last game of the season really opened my eyes about Marvin. Dude was playing with the second string and did not stand out at all. In fact he looked worse than some of the guys who normally sit at the bench. I really wish I could see footage of what Duck did in that workout. I just want to see what the hell he was doing that made them think he was the choice.

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CP ,

Actually my patience is up, which is why I said I’m not convinced that a new coach could help the situation. The only reason I’m going to see what happens is because unless Sund trades him, we’re stuck watching him again….

Like you, I have NO idea what it was that made him so attractive to anybody, for him to be projected that high, much less actually picked that high. But Sund re-signed him, so here we are. Then again, I don’t think anybody ever expected him to get worse in his fifth year, either.

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Found these quotes on the internet (accessnorthgeorgia.com);

Atlanta coach Mike Woodson said he was impressed with Williams’ range and shooting abilities. “He’ll be a pretty damn good player in our league. He works his butt off,” Woodson said.

Woodson said he only wished that the 6-foot-9 Williams had worked out against another player.

“It’s tough when you put a guy through an individual workout without someone to compare him against,” Woodson said. “But we have to respect that and work around that.”

If Marvin had worked out against another player, maybe they would have seen him stumbling and fumbling, and getting his shot blocked. At least we know what they liked in Marvin. His range and shooting abilities. Where has his range gone? I dont know…

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Ray’s Thinking pattern….”Woodson is responsible for the Great Depression…..Yep, fire Woodson!”

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Rod

I am not saying Marvin is Great, but I will not trade CRABS(Marvin) for HERPES(Deng, Hinrich or Turk)..

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(( shrugging shoulders ))

Like I said .. .the ASG should’ve just named Woody the GM, if all Sund was doing was giving Woody everything he wanted.

Everybody in this fan base knew that Woody coached the Hawks to win every game possible last year. The dude didn’t have the job security to try to develop people, because if it had backfired, he would’ve been fired midway through the season. Let the Hawks have been 12 – 13 around Christmas, the FIRE WOODY drums would’ve been beating like you were at a soccer game in Brazil.

And I never said the moves Sund did last season were bad. We won 53 games, and Crawford is a big reason why we won those extra 6 games this year. I thoroughly enjoyed what we did last year, ( even though the same people who questioning me now, complained about the team and the coach all year ). It’s unfortunate how the playoffs turned out, with both the coach and players melting down at the worse possible time. But I’ll always remember how great of a regular season we had last year.

Having said that . . . understand that when you make the Crawford move, it takes you right out of the 2010 free agency sweepstakes. Crawford’s 10 million on the books is the difference between us having almost 20 million under the cap ( if we renounced everybody, including JJ and Chill ), instead of 8 million, if we do that this summer.

*******************************

Forget a trade for Andre Miller. Say we DON’T do that, and DON’T do a Crawford trade . . but instead do everything else . . this is your Hawks team last year, along with what they’d make:

PG – Bibby ( 6.2 mill )
G – JJ ( 15 mill )
F – Marvin ( 7.5 mill )
F – Smoove ( 10.8 mill )
C – Horford ( 4.3 mill )

Bench:

G – Acie ( 2.2 mill )
G – Teague ( 1.4 mill)
G/F – Evans ( 2.5 mill )
F – Joe Smith ( 1.3 mill )
C – Zaza ( 4.7 mill )

G – Speedy ( 5 mill )
C – Jason Collins ( 1.2 mill )
G – West ( .5 mill )
F – Hunter ( .3 mill )

Rough total: 63.8 mill

With this lineup, Woody is pretty much FORCED to play either Acie or Teague at the backup point. Or do like he did in the preseason of 2007, when he was playing Lue, Acie, and AJ as a “3-headed monster” at the point. Of course, Acie and Teague combined couldn’t give us what Crawford gave us. But it would’ve given us a decent look at each guard. With the way Bibby regressed throughout the year, the opportunity would’ve been there for one of the kids to step up and get major playing time.

Woody would still go with a short rotation, with Zaza and Evans being the main guys off the bench, along with Teague and Law splitting time at the backup PG ( unless one of them emerged as the solid backup ). And guys like Marvin, Horford and JJ would still have to play multiple positions.

That squad, unless we get real good play out of the Teague/Law combination coming off the bench . . or great play out of Marvin . . wins anywhere from 43 – 47 games. Our starters, for most of the year, would’ve still been good enough to beat most teams, but we’d struggle against the top level teams.

*****************************

Now . . let’s see what we would’ve had coming into 2010, as far as who would be under contract, and how much money they would make:

Smoove ( 11.6 mill )
Marvin ( 6.7 mill )
Bibby ( 5.6 mill )
Horford ( 5.4 mill )
Zaza ( 4.2 mill )

Teague ( 1.5 mill )
1st round pick ( 2 mill ? ) . . because the Hawks wouldn’t have won 50 games with that squad, and would be picking a little higher in the draft.

Rough total: 37 million

The cap holds of JJ and Chill would prevent the Hawks from doing something significant to change the team. You’re still talking about 27+ million in cap holds, which would put us 8 million over the 56 mill estimated salary cap.

Renounce everybody except JJ, and you’re looking at the Hawks still being just 2 million under the cap. Renounce everybody, including JJ, and all of a sudden, you become a MAJOR PLAYER in the free agency bonanza, with almost 20 million to spend under the cap.

And had Marvin been on his Qualifying Offer, that number could’ve been as high as 26 million ( if everybody was renounced, including Marvin ) . . or 10 million, had we renounced everybody but JJ.

The question then will be . . . would a major free agent come to Atlanta? ( which has always been a historical problem ). But even if the goal was to keep JJ, this team could potentially spend 10 million on a player, or multiple players, without even being over the salary cap . . . plus have the MLE to spend.

*************************************************

The job of a GM is to do whatever he can to make the team better, within the financial parameters that ownership sets. I don’t fault Sund for making the Crawford move. It made us a better team. It’s just unfortunate that it didn’t pay dividends in the playoffs, along with the coach and other players selling us out.

But if Woody was basically a “lame duck” coach if he didn’t get to the Eastern Conference Finals . . Sund could’ve easily put this team in position to be a player in the 2010 free agency sweepstakes, if worst came to worst with JJ.

Instead, Jamal Crawford is the likely replacement for JJ . . we’ll get a new coach . . and we still have PG and big man issues.

Facts are facts folks.

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Rufus1,

You would be lucky to get anything above servicable for Marvin at this point, because that’s what he is. Those guys you listed are better than servicable.

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*havent had any success at making horford 5 game look good.

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We are not having a problem at power forward but At center so lets fix whats broke not what aint!

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SUCK-how many rebounds and blocks per 40 mins do you think Gotat would have accumulated if he’d been required to switch off and defend against PG’s and SG’s on the perimeter? Of course, I’m assuming you actually noticed, or can remember how often teams involved Horford, Zaza and Josh in their pick and rolls in order to create and then take advantage of these favorable match ups.

Can you see, or will you admit, that it’s very difficult for any Center to block shots and protect the basket if they’re above the key switching off on PG’s and SG’s. Horford’s and Smoove’s overall DEF abilities were compromised by Woodson in a futile attempt to hide Bibby’s obvious DEF liabilities. Woodson acknowledged it numerous times.

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SUCK-you’ve made a habit of comparing Horford’s stats with other centers, even going as far as misrepresenting the facts in some of those comparisons. If you really think Horford is our problem or weakest link, why don’t you do all of a favor, including yourself, and compare Bibby’s stats to the rest of the NBA’s starting PG’s? Then come back and tell us again how Horford is our weakest link, after showing us how the team has benefited from Bibby’s limited OFF, atrocious DEF, lack of penetrating ability, and inability to create easy scoring opportunities for others.

I’ll repeat an example I and others have presented numerous times, but you’ve conveniently avoided acknowledging or commenting on it. The Denver Nuggets traded Marcus Camby, the DEF player of the yr, who led the NBA in Blocked shots and rebounds. They replace Camby with his backup center, Nene. They also got rid of Allan Iverson, a high scoring, NO DEF PG, and replaced him with CBillups, a solid DEF minded PG.

In the end they became a much better DEF team overall because they had a center who played position DEF, rather than a shot blocker. But most importantly, they had a PG that didn’t allow the opposing PG’s to drive unabated through the lane, or make easy uncontested entry passes into the post.

IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE NBA THERE HASN’T BEEN A CENTER THAT COULD BLOCK SHOTS AND PROTECT THE BASKET WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY DEFENDING AGAINST PG’S AND SG’S ON THE PERIMETER.

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HawkKingBibby — first.. how infantile.. get a life!

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It doesn’t make too much sense to talk about bringing in a center unless you are willing to trade either Al or Josh. Josh can’t play the 3, and Atlanta can’t afford to invest too much into a backup player. If you wanted to trade Josh to GS for their first round pick and Biedrins, that’s one thing. Otherwise, the idea of the Hawks spending their full mid-level to bring in Haywood, only to have him ride the bench (and they recently re-upped on Pachulia for a similar figure) makes zero sense.

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“I will say this though, the biggest mistake I think BK ever made wasn’t in the draft, but it was in trading Rasheed Wallace. ”

The pick the Hawks acquired in the Sheed trade was used on Josh Smith. You keep Sheed and you lose Smoove, who considering his draft position was easily Knight’s best draft pick ever.

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“Stats to support my Josh for Gortat & Bass trade.”

Stats can say whatever you want them to say. Trading the #2 DPOY for two backups who barely play is just idiotic. If you want a center so bad that you are willing to take 10 cents on the dollar to get one, just sign and trade Joe Johnson for Eddy Curry.

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I hope people realize the Hawks do have the 4/5th best center in the league, so we’re not in need of a STARTING center. And I agree Josh is a better PF than Horford is. Josh can score on the block just as good as Horford can. Josh can rebound as well as Horford can (many of Horford rebounds do come from Josh pressuring the ball). Josh can pass better than Horford. Josh is able to guard more players than Horford. Horford is more efficient from 15 feet, but that’s about all that he does better than Josh.

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‘Hatter’ – What’s your preoccupation, obsession, amusement,
recreation, infatuation, anxiety, phobia, fixation,
pastime, & or foretaste with “Suck”?

Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

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This summer should show us what we’ve got since kids will work hard to impress the new coach and work into the system. I think we’ll see some real progress next season out of a number of players.

We don’t want Joe if he doesn’t want us. If he plans to stay he needs to decide early. Waiting too long on cash will only kill our chances or improving the team by signing folks. Unless he’s willing to sign for what we have left in the end? His decision in my mind depends on the coach, philosophy and outlook moving forward. We have a good core. We should look good moving forward with our without Joe to free agents. He should see that as well. He needs to decide early.

I don’t like getting rid of Smoove or Horford. Marvin needs at least a 1/2 season with a new coach to decide his effectiveness. This summer is his last chance. Right now he’s bench material, but I don’t see giving up on him till you see him in a new system.

Orl won’t part with Gortat, not sure about Bass? Siler might be a project worth trying. I still say Morris didn’t get a fair shot. He needs to be used in a good system. I think he can develop and produce. ZaZa needs real competition to drive him back to excellence. He can be a very servicable backup when he decides to give effort and be a team player. Horford, Siler, Morris and ZaZa would provide good center support or I say use the draft or D-League for a servicable replacement to the Siler option? It’ll be hard to trade ZaZa, stupid to lose Morris at his value.

What about Frye to give us a shooter at the 3/4 spot? He might bulk in the coming years and develop into a solid 4 or maybe 5? He’s young. Dude can shoot it. We need that.

Bass and Mathews are intriguing to me.

Teague needs competition to spur development. Without it he’ll lose confidence and drive. I like Lowry in Houston or Raymond Felton for a guard and or Mathews.

Reddick may be of value as a shooter, how about Matt Barnes as a defender on the perimeter?

There’s alot of action coming up this offseason. I just pray we have vision and effort from our owners and Sund. We need to field a hungry product. I don’t care if they’re the best, just that they give 100% under a new coach and system. Fans can appreciate a team giving their all.

Winning isn’t everything to me. It’s more how they play the game. We had so much promise and talent this year, only to squander it.

Use what you have effectively, no one will hold it against you.

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Oh yeah – Shaq = Unrestricted FA.

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NOTICE HOW LONG IT HAS TAKEN RICK SUND TO BRING IN A COACH.TAKING TIME NEVER WON NO CHAMPIONSHIP.HE WANTS SOMEONE TO COME AS A LOSER THE WAY HE IS.THE BEST COACH AVAILABLE IS AVERY JOHNSON.HE WANTS JOHNSON TO STOOP TO HIS LOSING LEVEL.HE’S TRYING TO FIND A WAY TO BRING IN ONE OF HIS BUDDIES INSTEAD OF SOMEONE WHO WANTS TO WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP.YOU WILL SEE SUND AT HIS BEST THIS SEASON, A LOSER, UNLESS HE BRINGS IN JOHNSON AND LET HIM COACH AND MOLD THE HAWKS IN HIS OWN WAY.

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Guys,

The key to remember here, is despite our likes and dislikes, we must also take into account who is available (free agency or trade), and if its free agency, who is available for our price (which will be the mid-level or less).

And I really think JJ is leaving. I don’t see the Hawks offering him the 6 year, $120 mil max (I wouldn’t offer it to him either), and isn’t the money one of the main reasons to stay with your current team? I think the Hawks offer him the 5 year $95 mil max, which is what other teams can offer him.

So why stay with the Hawks when you can make the same money somewhere else, play in a bigger market and be more appreciated, while playing with another big name free agent to help shoulder the load?

I think the only way JJ stays with the Hawks is if :

1) we offer him more money than other teams
2) Wade and LeBron each team up with one of the free agent bigs, leaving JJ out in the cold.

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Grandad,

I don’t think Shaq is the answer at starting center. He plays limited minutes these days, and I think we must consider how a more-talented Cleveland team acquired him the same reasons that we would be acquring him. I’d maybe trade Al or Josh (and that would involve some medium-to-heavy drinking), but definitely not both.

Fundamentals,

I wanna say it’s time to recognize a bad investment and cut our losses with the Marvin Williams thing, but just the possiblity at potential makes me wanna see him under another coach also. I hope curiousity doesn’t kill us.

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Northcyde ,

Since when is speculating on what Sund could have done “facts?” Every time I’ve done it with Billy Knight, it was called “speculation.” Maybe it’s just different for some folks.

If Woody didn’t have the job security, then imagine how Oklahoma City Thunder head coach Scotty Brooks feels. He won Coach of the Year. His reward? A two-year extension, same as Woody got. I wonder if the fans in Oklahoma City are going to use that as a built in excuse if Brooks begins making mistakes? Here’s a fact- only the very best and most tenured in the business consistently do better. Even then….

We did have a great regular season. We had a mostly crappy postseason. Celebrate one, lament the other. Or pick which one you want to be in denial about (ain’t blogging great).

Hate it or love it, what Sund did had a hand in that great regular season and crappy postseason. He gets as much credit or discredit as Woody did. I really think he hasn’t been around the Hawks long enough to be judged one way or the other just yet. But this summer will change much of that. GMs always like to build things their own way despite what they say publicly. Hell, I wasn’t sure he’d keep Woody around when he first arrived, but he did. Now he gets to start over from the coaching standpoint and if Joe leaves, he will have no choice but to retool this team his own way. Joe is part of Knight’s legacy, not Sund’s. We shall see.

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Time to rebuild/Truth Serum

I don’t hate Woody, and he’s gone so why keep picking on him. But I have a question. Who has been interviewing Woody for coaching job vacancies? I haven’t heard a word, but I figured you would have by now. Oh, and Philly is out, they hired Doug Collins. Who else is after Woody? No wait, I know what it is. Those other coaches that conspired to put Al Horford on the All-star team are all conspiring to keep Woody out of a head coaching job. That has to be it!

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((( Well said Big Ray )))
I think I was speakin’ [writing / typing] *Portuguese
last nite when I was conversing with ‘nc’.
He didn’t seem to understand my point.
(please vava – don’t take exception – it’s my catch phrase)
*I love all Portuguese – especially their beautiful women.

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Woodson must be as sorry as Brown from Cleveland? No one has hired a coach? Recently fired ones aren’t even really in the mix. Too soon. I’m not sold Avery is the one for us. I liked Byron Scott or Sam Mitchell if we’re going with an established coach.

I still say Ty Corbin would be a great look.

Not sold on Jackson, but I’d accept him.

Drew or Casey would also be acceptable to me.

Whatever happens, fans and players must embrace the new coach and new system or we’re hopeless!

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I don’t consider Frye, Wilcox, and Kritic as centers and Theo is a no no as well. Shaq or Ben Wallace would be great pick ups if they would come here to Atlanta in an Avery Johnson system. The hawks don’t need a center to score, they need a defensive or big bodied center who can rebound.

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Tyson Chandler has a player option this year. If he opts out we should go after him. He’s a tall body that defends very well in the paint.

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Ray,

Northcyde fails to acknowledge that a part of Woody’s job description is player development. And it doesnt matter what industry you work in. You have to find the balance between short term goals and long term goals, because they are both important.

Not Drinking the Kool-Aid,

I agree to some extent on Marvin. he was unsure of his role, and I dont think Woody did a good job developing/utilizing him.

That being said, a big part of the problem is on Marvin. What’s causing him to fumble and stumble so much? What’s causing him to miss open shots? Whats causing him to get his shots blocked by shorter players.

Hopefully, a new coach with a new offensive system and player accountability will have a positive effect on Marvin. I can understand giving Marvin one more season to see if he can turn it around. But dont be surprised if we are still having this discussion next offseason.

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I would be for signing Shaq for a 2 year $7-$8 million a year deal, even as much as $9 million. Shaq immediately causes ticket sales to go up by 10%. And you think JJ wouldn’t get the best open look shots that he’s gotten his entire career with Shaq? Shaq wasn’t the reason the Cavs lost. I’d be all for adding Shaq.

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Man I would love Shaq. If it were 3 years ago.

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The Hawks are about 1 good move away from being the winners we suspect they are……A dominant center. Any coach who can glue this team together, motivate, keep them from disintegrating mentally will be accepted.

How do teams get dominating centers?
Is it possible to trade up for a high draft pick? Everyone outiside of Joe, Al, Jamaal and Josh can go. (However, it is possible that when you ship out the Duck, he will suddenly blossom and continue to kill you)
Does Sund have any “friends” around the league willing to trade someone like Gasol or Garnett in a sweetheart deal? Or maybe a forced financial deal?
Does someone really like the city of cultural and intellectual attractions in Atlanta to demand a trade here?

Could we just make Bibby an assistant coach and convince him to leave the court in preparation for his new career?

I still don’t know what caused Bibby’s steep decline and Marvin’s disappearance. Has anyone in this 7th (?) largest media market in the country ever thought of asking them what happened? I mean, they’re still here! The problem didn’t just go away.

Don’t get me started. MC–turn your head…you’re exempt. But when you listen to Steve Holman (sp?),on the air, Ryan Cameron in the arena, the idiotic owner squabble you have to wonder at the intelligence level involved. (I was going to add Charles Barkley, but he sometimes will come out and tell the truth about a situation which makes him rare).

There is the lack of a coherent bond between this team, the media, and us….which leaves us in the dark and mostly flailing around for answers. .

Is Sund really keeping his options secret…I hope so….I hope he’s up every night pouring over every newspaper and blog in the country, listening to every Internet sports show looking for that malcontent who is healthy who wants desperately to get out of his situation. (Steve Jackson comes to mind).

Who is calling out Phil Jackson? That idiot who went into the stands to beat up a fan just made a series-saving play for the Lakers (grabbing a Kobe airball and shoveling it back in to keep Phoenix from going up). Ron Artest the disgraced gangsta of the NBA…now a bonafide hero and winner. Under the right influence. Phil Jackson, who now can concentrate on Kobe playing offense.

You know the Hawks probably could have gotten Artest somewhere along the way. Any team could have……but they wouldn’t have known what to do with him….

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*Grandad’s Trade of the Day* |6/2/10| (edition)

Memphis gets:
* Jamal Crawford
* Jeff Teague

Hawks get:
O.J. Mayo
Hasheem Thabeet

Memphis motivation;
They need / want a point guard. They are not happy with
‘Conley’. Although, I’m not exactly sure why?
This is based on an “interview” I read, – ‘Lionel Hollins’.

Hawks motivation – OJ Mayo – ’nuff said.

Works on NBA trade machine:
With Thabeet or Conley, either one.
I tried to give Marv away but they don’t have filler.
They have Marko Jaric’s contract but trade machine didn’t
have it available. It also does not have a way to include
Childress in a S&T.

I think Jamal, Teague & Childress might get
Mayo & DeMarre Carroll but ins & outs of (CBA)
would have to be traversed.

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If we gave up Teague, Immediately Ray Felton
jumps into FA conversation / Kyle Lowry as well.
Plus Sherron Collins jumps into draft conversations.
If Joe stays & we were to acquire Mayo then a two guard
back-court both with playmaking skills becomes an option.
Think (86 Celtics) DJ & Ainge.
Joe would have his *wingman*.

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http://www.hawksquawk.net/community/index.php/topic/347620-peachtree-hoops-its-come-to-this-another-links-post-al-horfords-wish-list/

So, if Al wants to move to power forward, do the Hawks just ignore his request? I don’t think that would be a good idea.

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Najeh…the answer to your dwight/lebron trade is that neither team does the trade. it hardly ever happens. teams don’t swap all stars. teams will not give you equal, proven value for josh smith. you can either take a payer near the end of his career, or you can take a couple of cheaper players with upside. again, i’m not saying you make this trade, but there is equal value in it. all 3 players are paid equal to their abilities. you can’t prove that gortat will not be a solid starter and you can’t prove that he will until he gets the opportunity. if he was a proven starter at center already, then he wouldn’t be available for trade. the only centers that i see available for trade that are currently starting are dampier, possibly bynum, chandler, krstic, jefferson, okafor, hawes & dalembert. all of these guys but 2 make over $10M next year. would you rather have one of them or a 26 yr old with solid per-minute stats and a reasonable contract for the next 4 years?

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TRUTH-SERUMS TRADE OF THE DAY….MIKE CON AND HAM AND BIG RAY FOR MARK BRADLEY OR JEFF SCHULTZ!

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AMARE
JOSH
JJ(HE CAN PLAY THE 3)
CRAWFORD
TEAGUE

GOTAT
JOE SMITH
MOE EVANS
FLIP MURRY
BIBBY

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big ray, granddad, just because other teams hasn’t hired a coach, does that mean that rick sund should wait on them? no. he is suppose to be working to make the hawks better.thats what’s been wrong with atlanta sports teams over the years.they wait on other teams to make moves instead of doing it themselves.atlanta usually ends up getting the pick of the litter.yes, i’m sold on avery johnson because he is a proven winner.he is what the hawks need now that woodson is gone.he is versitle. a player like marvin williams and josh smith would really shine in his system. also, he has videos out that proves his knowledge of the game.you all are not knowledgeable basketball people.you are going off of personal feelings the same as sund.yes,if sund keeps sitting around with a cell phone stuck in his ear and do nothing, the hawks will be the same kind of team the wizards are, losers.he need to bring johnson in, get out of his way, and let the team play.you will see winning results with avery johnson

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Flash,

Long time, man. Good to see you’re still around.

A lot of us old timers are still kicking over on the fan blog. Ray is the moderator.

Check it out at: http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-hawks-blog/2010/05/27/hawks-fans-summer-speculation/

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“Memphis gets:
* Jamal Crawford
* Jeff Teague

Hawks get:
O.J. Mayo
Hasheem Thabeet”

With Rudy Gay possibly leaving and Zach Randolph possibly going to jail, I don’t think there’s any way the Grizzlies part with Mayo.

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“I think that Gearon has to keep paying JJ, which means that this team will have no half-court offense worth talking about, which you need if you want to be taken seriously during serious times. ”

Having Joe doesn’t automatically mean there’s no half court offense. Joe proved in Phoenix that he can thrive in a system where he doesn’t hog the ball. The ball-hoggery was by Woody’s design. Joe is fully capable of playing and thriving in a system designed around Teague running pick and rolls with Smoove and pick and pops with Horford.

It’s on the next coach to make this happen — let Teague play a Tony Parker/Rajon Rondo type of role, let Smoove and Horford anchor your post offense, and allow Joe to play a role similar to Manu Ginobili, Ray Allen, and Paul Pierce — all players who can put up big time scoring numbers, but none of whom hog the ball in their respective offenses.

Pierce, in particular, is a good example of this — during the years when the Celtics were centered around him and Antoine Walker, he used to be a notorious ball hog, but with the emergence of Rondo and the acquisition of Garnett and Allen, he doesn’t hog the ball nearly as much but is still effective.

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cdog – I don’t want to be 1st just to be 1st.
I want Mr. Sund to be right rather than 1st.
Actually Avery Johnson is [my] 1st choice @ this point.
So – in that regard, we are on the same page.
Plus, [and] I don’t really have an answer as to why,
but I do not particularly care for Casey.
However, when all is said and done, I support Mr. Sund.
He has given me “NO” reason “NOT” to support him.

And by the way…who cares if Avery has a tape.
I’ll make a tape.
Then if I apply, would you support me as a candidate.

If Mr. Sund hires Av Johnson then will you then reverse
your position as a Sund-cynic.

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For all the talk of how Horford is not a center, there are two centers in the league who cause him problems — Howard and the Shaq/Ilgauskas combo. Horford at least holds his own against every other center in the league, including Brook Lopez, Andrew Bogut, Andrew Bynum, Brendan Haywood, as well as the pseudo-centers like Bosh and Amare that so many people on this blog have a hard-on for. Blowing up an otherwise very productive front court because two teams in the league give the Hawks problems is an idiotic idea.

The Hawks need a physical, strong, 25-30 minute defensive center who will come in and give Horford a breather. That’s it. No need to trade either Smoove or Horford, unless they receive an equally good or better player in return.

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The Hawks should have kept that Garret Siler kid….he may have needed some time to get better but come on you signed Jason Collins just to sit on the bench…..I dont think they should have let him go and I wonder if he is available? Young kid with that kind of size probably could have helped against Howard

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Najeh,

Co-sign your 7:38 post. Big Time.

Grandad,

If YOU were Memphis, would YOU trade Mayo?

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Rand MO:

As a senior for Atlanta, Georgia’s Landmark Christian High School, Morris averaged almost a triple-double at 23.0 ppg, 16.0 rpg and 8.0 bpg, earning him McDonald’s All-American Team status. Randolph Morris was the #2 rated center and #10 overall prospect by Rivals.com in a year when a record eight high schoolers went directly to the NBA draft.

If he were eligible today, he would be a top 10 pick based on high school alone.

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granddad, to answer your question, no. sund has shown his true nature as a GM.he’s terrible.he has blown 2 years in which he could have improve the team to get past the cavs,majic, and celtics in a playoff series.he did nothing, then turn around and blamed a coach who won won 53 games with short handed personnel compared to those teams and fired him unneccesarily.he sit back while cleveland acquired shaq, then had a chance to get stackhouse but let orlando get him.he could have been a big help to the hawks better than to the majic.he did bring in CRAWFORD BUT HE KNEW IT TOOK MORE THAN JUST A 2 GUARD TO GET PAST THOSE BIG 3 BUT HE WAS MORE CONCERN WITH SAVING MONEY THAN WINNING A CHAMPIONSHIP.sund just isn’t a basketball person. ANY GM WHO MAKES A STATEMENT, “YOU DON’T TRADE FOR SUPERSTARS, YOU DRAFT THEM”, CAN’T BE ALL THERE.he does not have the guts of a danny ainge or the good gms in the league.also, no i would not hire you if you made a tape.no one would learn any thing from yours.the way you judge basketball now supports that. you have to know the game and be real about it.not see things blindly because of personal feelings .

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we could have orlando throw in the rights to fran vazquez as well.

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“Najeh…nice try saying gortat is zaza 2.0. they’re not even close to the same type of player. ”

You completely missed the point. The point is you can’t just see that a guy blocks a shot and gets 4 boards in 12 minutes and assume he’s going to block 3 shots and get 12 boards if he plays 36 minutes. If that was the case, based on his per minute stats as a backup in Milwaukee, Zaza would have been among the league leaders in rebounding and would have contended for an All-Star spot in Atlanta. Like I said before, Gortat’s numbers come against second string players and most of his shots are dunks set up by his superior teammates.

Taking a chance on a guy like that is fine if you give up nothing to get him. If you are giving up the #2 DPOY to get him, it’s lunacy.

And I’m not including Brandon Bass in this discussion because undersized PFs who get boards are a dime a dozen, and most of them don’t require paying them $12 million over the next three years.

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That should read avg 12 pts and 10 rebs in a 36 minute game (for ZaZa).

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O’Brien

Hopefully, a new coach with a new offensive system and player accountability will have a positive effect on Marvin. I can understand giving Marvin one more season to see if he can turn it around. But dont be surprised if we are still having this discussion next offseason.

******************

Oh I understand it O’Brien. I also understand that the two players that turned into stars for us ( JJ and Smoove ), Woody gets absolutely no credit for their development. Add Horford to that list as well. But people want to focus on the scrubs who didn’t develop ( and didn’t develop under anybody else either ), as proof that he doesn’t develop players.

Teague’s non-development was an easy call. The dude couldn’t shoot nor finish in traffic,and you had 2 veteran guards that you could play in front of him at the point. He could’ve played the dude more. No doubt on that. But with Teague’s obvious deficiencies as a player right now, it may have been to the detriment to the team. So it’s easy for a coach to play it safe, and play the 2 vet guards.

As for Marvin, the excuses need to stop for him as well. If he made some damn open shots, he would’ve gotten more opportunities. JJ’s assists dropping down below 5 was a direct result of Marvin and Bibby not making shots when he passed them the ball. But mainly Marvin.

It’s like Rod says about Marvin . . the dude is wide open on most plays in which teams go to double JJ. When he gets open looks, he HAS to knock them down. If he misses, he’s not going to get the ball.

People talk about ball movement. But what good is ball movement, if guys can’t do basic things to score the basketball? The purpose of ball movement is to get the best possible shot, whether that’s a lay-up or a wide open jumper. If guys get the ball in scoring position . . . score the basketball.

It’s like you said. We can install a new offensive system in here. But it still means that these players need to make wide open shots and make lay-ups ( sometimes tough lay-ups ). We’ll see what happens next year with the new “system”. A new “system” was supposed to help Philadelphia’s offensive woes too ( Eddie Jordan’s “Princeton Offense” ). Philly’s offense was slightly worse this year, than it was last year.

So much for the “system”. How about players making some shots?

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northcyde
your posts ramble on & don make much sense. all year long you knock jc & claim how great jj is. jc played much better than your hero jj did. he choked & plaed like crap. his iso play wil never make this team play like it should which is better ball movement & an up tempo play. you knocked teague all season & praised bibby. teague never had a chance to show what he could do. everybody knows that he is super fast,can stay in front of the fastest guards in the nba & can penerate. we have to completely take the ball out of jj hands as we dribbles way to much & forces bad shots. as for our defense who knows what hell we can do or not do based on woodys stupid switching defense. i know that our bench was not strong but we also dont have any idea on anyone as woody stupidly refused to play anyone. i was always suprised at the huge minutes he gaved to mb & mw.often he gave mw more minutes than he gave to js. we need to get rid of mw,mb & moe. we need to get rid of
jj as this team will always be playing iso joe. this is the only way joe can be effective. he certainly is not worth the huge salery he is demanding

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Expect a coaching hire in about 2 months.

We are still separating the “emotional” from the “analytical.” Despite my statements that the Magic blowouts didn’t matter because so many other teams got blown out in the playoffs, we are still suffering from this blowout series. I know, that as myself, a TRUE COMPETITOR, this series really stung.

Rick

P.S. I am REALLY leaning towards getting Casey. He is CLEARLY more experienced than Avery and knows more about the game than Mark Jackson, even though MJ is 2nd all time in Assists

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Hawks should go after monta ellis the guy have left cali. 2 come live in the south where he is from, yesterday i posted zaza, marvin, for monta i say the trade work for both team we need a point and warriors need a new make over.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!

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GRANDDAD, MY BAD,I GET THOSE NORTH CAROLINA GUYS MIXED UP. WHATS THE NORTH CAROLINA GUY NAME WITH THE MAJIC? HE WAS A TARGET OF THE HAWKS BEFORE THE SEASON.I APOLOGIZE. I WASN’T ANGRY, JUST FUNNING MY BROTHER

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Sautee:

NO if I were Memphis I would NOT let him go.

Which is why I knew that the trade machine would not allow
me to offer enough to tempt them. Needing (percieved)[?]
a point guard & some front ct. help [Z.Rand] sit. My thinking
was offer enough of our chips + draft picks to entice a stolen
gem. Heck, their under the cap with money – LR Ark. is close
maybe even a S&T for Joe.
OJ would go a long way toward gluing our future.
Giving up Teague: [last resort]
Ray felton (UFA) Kyle Lowry (RFA)
I know all this is in our minds but it’s my hobby.
Quite a shame I can’t play golf @ least for the time being.
That and I love the game !

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“That and I love the game !” *Basketball*

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Grandad, I don’t know if its Mayo or Gasol, but I think one of those two Grizzlies should be a Hawk next season. And I think the Hawks have enough piece to make it happen without giving up the entire farm.

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Ramon:

I don’t know if we can touch either.
But Gasol is untouchable.
He is like Al is to us.
I don’t blame them.
Talented Bigs don’t fall out of the sky.
*Thabeet? maybe?
Hollins on Gasol:
“Hardest worker on the team”
Mayo is probably close to being in the same boat.
They need to [and will] re-sign Rudy Gay.
It’s funny how that trade was panned (older brother)
but it’s actually worked out for Memphis.
It would be a heist, but Mayo
would be just the ticket for us.

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NAJEH-When Marvin scored 14.8PPG he was the teams 3rd scoring option. This yr, he became the teams 5th scoring option among the starters. The reasons he regressed this yr were:

(1) the addition of JCrawford limited his scoring opportunities,

(2) the emergence of AHorford as a scoring option also limited his scoring opportunities,

(3) he obviously lost confidence in his jump shot and withdrew,

(4) with JJ and Crawford doing so many ISO’s he and his teammates did a lot of clearing out and standing around and were shut out,

(5) unlike JJ, Crawford and Bibby, Marvin always attempted to maintain ball movement and never sought to disrupt the OFF to go ISO,

(6) he is by nature a none aggressive player, and was content to coast or disappear on OFF, which was obviously acceptable to Woodson.

He averaged his 6.3RPG before Woodson made the switching DEF his bread and butter.

Marvin could be a consistent 15-16PPG scorer if we brought him off picks for open jumpers, and as a spot up jumpshooter with a penetrating PG that can draw and kick. Hell, why make an issue of Marvins dribbling and driving difficulties, when we’ve all seen JJ and Crawford struggle with ISO’s and one on one, even with their excellent penetrating and ball handling skills.

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Grandad, he just seems like a winner who has no quit in him. I wouldn’t offer Marvin for him, but would offer Zaza.

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Co-sign Ken S. + Ive been saying all along;
Marv’s not a slsher.

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Grandad, I understand. But with the Bucks in jeopardy of losing Kurt Thomas, I think they would find value in Zaza as well. And at the moment I think Zaza’s value on the market may be higher than Marvin’s because his contract is less.

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We need Sean Williams. Horford has proven he can’t get the job done.

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Ramon you will like this one.
Last post of the eve for me.
My new project.
@ # 24 Hawks select:

Art parakhouski…6-11, 270…*7-1 w-span
*(not particularly impressive)
Hand length 9.5, hand width 10.5 (impressive)
only 6% body fat (exceptional)
Radford Univ. (not the girls school)
21 pts., 13 rebs., 59% fg, 2 blocks
from – Minsk, Belarus – wherever the heck that is.
I watched him @ the combine & I’m ashamed that I had
never heard of the young man. I listened to his interview
@ DraftExpress and he was an impressive young man.
Much more athletic than Zaza. Nice release on his mid-range
jumper. Plenty of bulk to bang with DH. This is a good omen;
he grew up as a swimmer and played soccer for 7 years. [footwork]
Alot to like. Yet…Pedergraph (still not a typo) can’t find
any players @ 24. Pedergraph – where amazing happens !

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Darrell, your contention that Curry and Ellis can’t coexist is fine, but that doesn’t mean they would accept Marvin and Zaza in return. You still haven’t answered my question. Would you, as the Warriors GM, trade Monta Ellis for Marvin and Zaza? Do you think that would make your team better if you were running that team?

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Ken, I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying necessarily, but you can’t blame his big time regression in 3-point percentage and mediocre man-to-man defense on Woody, can you?

I’m not letting Woody and the circumstances off the hook when it comes to Marvin’s failures, but I feel like you are letting Marvin off the hook to an extent. Spot-up 3-point shooting in an isolation offense and man-to-man defense are not things that need to be coached or things that are dependent on the circumstances. All that requires is for Marvin to make a commitment to become good at those things.

I would honestly be OK with Marvin averaging 10 points and 5 boards a game if he became a lock down defender and knocked down 40% of his 3’s. But he’s been in the league for 5 years now, and regardless of who his coach or teammates are, he has to find a way to be good at something. It’s kind of the same argument northcyde (wrongly) makes with Teague — Marvin has to make an impact on the game somehow, and there are ways to do that which are independent of the surroundings.

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(another thought) you have to consider the sample size because it didn’t happen a lot, but….the Hawks best point differential came when ZaZa was playing the 5 and Horford was playing the 4….Just another reason why I want to see Horford at the 4 more. ZaZa should remain our backup 5.

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amare without nash is useless!!!!!!!

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Many great comments.

The Hawks looked a lot tougher in the paint with Zaza at 5 and Al at 4.
My personal belief is that you need a PF with A.Horford’s size. quickness, jumpshot and free throw shooting ability to compete with the elite PF’s:

P.Gasol, K.Garnett, T. Duncan, L. Aldridge, C. Bosh, A. Stoudemire, Z. Randolph

You’re honestly going to tell me you think J.Smith can cover these guys without getting into foul trouble? He’s a phenomenal help defender but he doesn’t have the size or seeming will to cover these guys one on one around the paint.

I love J.Smith, he’s an impact player who does it on both sides of the court. I love A.Horford even more because he clearly wants to win, puts in great efforts night in and night out, and is fundamentally sound. So, answer me this: How are we supposed to keep Al (one of the few reasons people watch the hawks) when he clearly wants to be a PF?

The whole center argument boils down not necessarily to our front line being too small to win a championship, but that that Al has publicly stated he wants to play PF. Is the goal here to find a real center, or to figure out a way to keep Al on the squad?

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Josh and Al need to get together, throw ego’s aside, and make a decision as to whether they’ll be able to play on the same team for years to come or not. Starting 2 pf’s is great for the regular season but it just doesn’t cut it in the playoffs.

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That was a good one RAMON. Get a good coach, get a notable center, sign JJ, and Atlanta is ours.

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“For all the talk of how Horford is not a center, there are two centers in the league who cause him problems — Howard and the Shaq/Ilgauskas combo. Horford at least holds his own against every other center in the league, including Brook Lopez, Andrew Bogut, Andrew Bynum, Brendan Haywood, as well as the pseudo-centers like Bosh and Amare that so many people on this blog have a hard-on for. Blowing up an otherwise very productive front court because two teams in the league give the Hawks problems is an idiotic idea.”

…….

exactly. Al Horford is a center people.

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“It’s like Rod says about Marvin . . the dude is wide open on most plays in which teams go to double JJ. When he gets open looks, he HAS to knock them down. If he misses, he’s not going to get the ball.

People talk about ball movement. But what good is ball movement, if guys can’t do basic things to score the basketball? The purpose of ball movement is to get the best possible shot, whether that’s a lay-up or a wide open jumper. If guys get the ball in scoring position . . . score the basketball.”

I couldn’t have said it better. So I guess people really think that he will knock those jumpshots down with a defender in his face. LOL

“Marvin could be a consistent 15-16PPG scorer if we brought him off picks for open jumpers, and as a spot up jumpshooter with a penetrating PG that can draw and kick. Hell, why make an issue of Marvins dribbling and driving difficulties, when we’ve all seen JJ and Crawford struggle with ISO’s and one on one, even with their excellent penetrating and ball handling skills.”

Marvin will never in his basketball career get more open jumpers than he has gotten in the last two years. Stop with the Rip Hamilton comparisons also. They are not even close to similar players. Rip could do it all, and Marvin can’t. Plus Rip was always considered one of the most well conditioned athletes in the game, and he could run all day, Marvin can’t. The bottom line on Marvin is this, he can practice, get put in a motion offense, play in the triangle, but the fact that his is goofy, and clumsy, and timid will never change. I promise you that there are guys in high school right now, who could provide more for the Hawks than he could today.

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Najeh:

Art is short for ”Artsiom”
*Artsiom Parakhouski* – I’m not makin’ it up.

“sounds like someone who is more likely to win the Nobel Prize in Literature than the NBA Finals.”…..Now that’s funny !

O’B:

Craig Smith – Co-sign ! – I think they call him the ”Bull”.

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not that they can afford it…..but…

C – Noah
PF – Horford
SF – Deng
SG- Joe Johnson
PG – Derrick Rose

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Quest….If Josh is the superior player to Horford, then why was Horford chosen for the all star game rather than Smith? They just trying to pizz you off?…Also, here’s what Hoopinion has to say about a Josh & Al comparison:

“Josh Smith (deservedly) gets talked about in terms of what he might become and what the hypothetical consolidation and maturation of his talents might mean for the Atlanta Hawks. Even though Al Horford’s skills are more conventional he should probably be discussed in similar terms. Horford recognizes his strengths and weaknesses more readily than does Smith so his improvement has and could come from refining his existing skills rather than a hope for enlightenment.”

“Whether or not Horford improves his post game sufficiently to consistently draw a double-team and thus fully take advantage of his passing ability will likely determine whether he remains an arguable All-Star or becomes an arguable All-NBA player.”

“Horford complemented his work in and around the paint with a devastatingly accurate face-up jumper. 21.5% of Horford’s field goal attempts came between 16 and 23 feet. It’s the worst percentage shot in the game in general, but not so much so if one, as Horford did last season, makes the shot 48% of the time rather than the league average of 39.8% and uses the shot judiciously….Josh Smith took 64 more long jump shots than Horford and made 20 fewer.”

“Horford’s defensive role was essentially the opposite of his offensive role. Mike Woodson’s switching defense called on Horford to do everything: guard the opposing center in the post, guard the opposing point guard away from the basket on the screen-and-roll, help on dribble penetration from the wings, and rebound the misses. If defensive usage rate were a real thing rather than a term of art, then Horford presumably would have been among the league leaders as his all-court defensive effort rarely failed to impress.”

“it’s not inconceivable that Horford (already the superior defensive rebounder) could challenge Josh Smith as the team’s best defender.”

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Jojo that is also why Josh received more votes for ALL NBA this past season than Horford.

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Also, of the 6 PFs ranked higher than Josh, by the coaches, you can argue three of them (Duncan, Nowitzki, and Gasol) have already played their basketball and are on the decline of their career, while Josh hasn’t even peaked. So its easy to see Josh being in the top 3-4 PFs for the next 5-6 seasons. Also for whoever said Al recognizes his flaws more than Josh’s. I would beg to ask the question since entering the league, who has shown more improvement in their game, Josh or Al. Al is a great player and I want to see Josh and he continue to be on the Atlanta Hawks for a long time. But Al isn’t doing anything this season that he wasn’t doing as a rookie. His leadership skills are improving, but other than that you can’t tell any major difference in his game. However, each season NBA coaches marvel at the development of different aspects of Josh’s game. So I would think Josh has more of a chance of improving than Al does.

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Truth-serum said:

“Altlanta (sic) needs a starting center who can and will play defense because defense wins ball games. and particularly defense under the basket.”

Hey Truth-serum, you keep running from this:

How much did having the Defensive Player of the Year and the league’s top shot blocker help Orlando?

I’ll wait.

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LOL @ Sautee.

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Ramon…you have no idea where coaches would rank Horford at PF. It would not be a surprise to see him ranked ahead of Smith. The way Al scores in the post, his #’s would only improve if he was getting to post up PF’s rather than C’s, and have PF’s trying to block him out rather than C’s.

“Actually Horford wouldn’t have started at PF for any of the other 7 teams that made it to the 2nd round”….Horford would have easily started for Orlando & Cleveland, and Phoenix & San Antonio would have just moved Amare & Duncan to C to make room (they both play a lot of minutes there already).

“But Al isn’t doing anything this season that he wasn’t doing as a rookie”….hmmm, that 15 footer he added this year was solid. how is josh’s jumper coming along? who scores at a higher rate around the basket? who’s the better rebounder?….did you catch the line above that said Josh had taken 64 more long jump shots last year than Al and had made 20 less than Al? Don’t mistake flash for substance. They are both great players, but Al is the better player right now. If Josh can speed up his release and hit the 15 footer on occasion and grow up mentally, then he could pass Horford.

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Jojo, Horford doesn’t finish around the basket better than Josh. If you just posted a stat that said Al shoots that much better from 15 feet than Josh does, and Josh is only shooting .45% lower than Al, wouldn’t that mean that Josh must be a better scorer and more efficient scorer than Al is around the basket? How else would it be that close? Josh is a better rebounder than Al. There are many rebounds that Al gets because Josh allows him to get them (Josh isn’t one who cares about stats, just winning). Also one or two rebounds of Al’s come AFTER a defensive possession where Josh defensive pressure has forced the opposing team into a bad shot. And if you observe the stats you will also see Al only averages 0.1 more offensive rebounds than Josh. Yet we’re all aware of the positioning of Woody’s scheme that left Josh out on the perimeter constantly. So if Al is a better rebounder, how is it that he averaged the same amount of offensive rebounds as Josh does, when Al is under the basket more often than Josh? Also think about the team, somehow Josh manages to be in the top 3 in every category (except 3pt statistics and jumpers percentages) for the team. And you stated that Josh scares you in the clutch. So how is it that every one say Josh had a bad postseason for him, and yet he had the exact same averages during the postseason as Al did, yet no one says Al had a bad postseason. That either means more is expected out of Josh on a regular basis, and he normally provides it, or Al didn’t perform in the post season either.

By the way, you say if Al played for the Spurs or Suns Amare or Duncan would’ve played the C position. So wouldn’t that mean that another coach would’ve had a natural PF playing the C position? Because neither Amare nor Duncan is a natural C. And with Amare, Al still would’ve ended up guarding the C position. Out of Amare, Duncan, Dirk, Boozer, Bosh, and Gasol which one you think Al is better than? Because those are the only PFs the League voted higher than Josh. And I don’t see Al being better than either of those 6 either.

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“And I don’t see Al being better than either of those 6 either.”….maybe not, but he’s better than Josh.

“If you just posted a stat that said Al shoots that much better from 15 feet than Josh does, and Josh is only shooting .45% lower than Al, wouldn’t that mean that Josh must be a better scorer and more efficient scorer than Al is around the basket?”….not necessarily, it depends on how many shots you take in each category. if he takes more shots around the basket, then he can close the gap in total shooting % even though Al may make a higher % in that range as well.

Josh had a bad postseason because he was seen multiple times walking down the court with is lip stuck out like a 4 year old. Josh is not a bad kid. You never read about him in the paper doing something wrong. He just needs to be more professional and mature. Being around immaturity will pizz a grown man off when having a bad day at work (round 2 of the playoffs).

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Josh has shown tremendous improvement since coming to the League. But the main reason for that is because when he came into the league, he was 19, with no college experience. When Al got here, he had 3 years experience at a very good program (Florida) with back to back NCAA championships, so his game was more refined.

The article summed it up well though. Horford knows his limitations, so he plays within himself. Would he be a better PF than Josh? I don’t know. But he wouldn’t have the ups and downs that Josh has. Tim Duncan is known as the big fundamental because he does not have any flash to his game. But he gets the job done.

Al is not on his level, but thats how his game is. Not very flashy. Josh, on the other hand, will have the highlight dunk, or the awesome pass etc. But Al is more likely not to make the silly plays that Josh makes.

I agree with Ramon. I don’t think the Hawks have to choose between Josh and Al (not yet anyway). All the Hawks need is a defensive minded center who can backup Al, and can play more minutes as needed against the bigger front lines. Personally, I like having Josh and Al on the team together. But we need a defensive minded center. ZaZa is not cutting it on defense.

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Someone wrote earlier about a trade with the Hawks sending Joe Johnson & Marv Williams for Igudala & Dalembert of the Sixers. Scratch Igudala!! He is a decent player but decent small forwards are common and can be found easier than any other player. The player they can probably get in the trade and need the most is LOUIS WILLIAMS..the PG from ATL. He is the man… and with a defensive minded coaching staff and some good home cooking, he can win most improved player of the year. His ball handling and passing skills have step up since his rookie year, it’s obvious he works at his game. With a real center to work with Smith and Horford inside, they can win the NBA Championship. Plus, Philly can draft another point guard with the #2 pick this year. Mark my words Louis can be the great point guard Atlanta needs. I would even add Jeff Teague if need be (he is not a great ballhandler in my opinion). Rick S. should make it happen.
But he won’t, cause he is Rick Sund.
I remember him in my Dallas days. The Dallas Mavs with Rick Sund and Norm S drafted SF Mark Aguire, instead of Isiah Thomas PG with the first pick they ever had..dumb..real dumb.
Doesn’t that remind you of someone?

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“But Jojo, you just said Josh took 64 more jumpers than Al. So once again if Josh shoots so much more poorly from the basket than Al, and yet their FG% is so close. That must means Josh shoots well above Al from attempts around the basket.”….again, not necessarily. that’s not how averages work. If Horford shoots 40% higher on a 100 shots, and 2% higher on 1,000 shots, then the total shooting % will be closer to the 2% # than the 40% #. Just concern yourself with total shooting %, 5% or so is a huge difference over a full season. Given 20 shots a game, thats an extra basket every game or 2pts on your scoring avg.

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Ramon, Jojo, and others,

Al is an All-Star Center. Whether he is better at PF than Josh is a moot point.

I agree that Al likely does NOT make the All-Star team as a PF. His advantage is his quickness, relentlessness and footwork against slower players.

You know it’s funny that Dave Cowens and Wes Unseld can be in the Hall of Fame at 6′ 9″ and 6″ 7.5″ when THEY played against “true centers” like Wilt, Nate Thurmond, and Kareem, but Horford is “too small” to play against far smaller centers these days. LOL.

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Jojo, on that bad night, he disrupts the team so much they manage to win 53 games. And when he’s out of the lineup the points in the paint goes up over 50%. He disrupts the team so much that everyone sees he’s easily the biggest cheerleader for his teammates over anyone on the team. He doesn’t disrupt the team any more than JJ dribbling the ball for 18 seconds and then passing the ball to Smoove with 5 seconds on the shot clock. He doesn’t disrupt the team any more than Bibby inability to stay in front of his man constantly puts the front line at disadvantages. He doesn’t disrupt the team any more than Crawford coming down and shooting on 4 out of 6 offensive possessions and missing on all 4. We sit here and watch the games, and we complain about officiating and Woody. Yet its merely a hobby or interest to us, and we’re not investing anything more than $200 for tickets or 3 hours out of the day 3x a week, and some of us be on here about to go crazy. Yet we expect Josh (and other NBA players) to do this for a living, give upto 16 hours a day and every ounce of energy they have into succeeding. Yet when faced with a coach who’s inapt to drawing an offensive play or a referee who’s unfairly calling a game, we expect these same players to calmly turn around and walk back down the court. Yet Kobe, Wade, and others all had more technical fouls than Josh did. However, when they do it, its called the will to win. But we call Josh a whiner for it. Kobe and Wade have both lead to a coach being fired or released out of their contract. Kobe and Wade have both PUBLICLY complained about teammates and coaching staffs inability to do things. Yet Smoove shows frustration from things going on on the court, or mistakes that Woody continued to make after 5 seasons. Yet we call him a whiner for it. See how Smoove is under another coach before labeling him that.

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Why not sign kendric perkins from boston? He would b the piece that atlanta needs….Just saying!

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INTANGIBLES

How do you call Josh’s stat lines INTANGIBLES we you can see, touch and feel them?

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Drmaryb,

I stand corrected. Josh is the stat sheet filler upper, while horford has the leadership, which is more of the intangible

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Big Ray, I stated Gerald Wallace. Wallace is simply listed best as a F, not a SF or a PF. He plays equal time at both positions often (he and Diaw are often interchanged).

If River leaves Boston, my wild guess is their next coach will be Phil Jackson, Rudy Tomjanovich, or possibly Jeff Van Gundy.

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Hire Mark Jackson & run Marvin Williams out of the ATL!…

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Keep on posting such stories. I love to read stories like that. Just add more pics

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