Atlanta Hawks: Attention on centers
Can Haywood really be had for the mid-level?
The Hawks say they are looking to free agency instead of the draft for frontcourt help. At this point it’s not clear if that need supersedes their desire for a starting-caliber point guard (in case the Jeff Teague thing doesn’t yield immediate fruits) or wing player (in case J.J. bolts in free agency). This is especially the case since the returning frontcourt (Al, Josh, and Zaza) might be a stronger group than the returning backcourt (Bibby, Jamal, Marvin and Teague).
But since the draft doesn’t look like it will yield a big man who can contribute now at pick No. 24, and Jason Collins and Randolph Morris both are free agents, the Hawks will need a center one way or the other. Let’s assume they won’t go the vet-minimum route this time and will actually use their mid-level exception to seek a starting-caliber center (neither assumption is safe, but let’s just say both are plausible). What kind of center could the Hawks expect to acquire in free agency this summer?
First, let me say that trying to predict the market for free agents this summer is tricky. With so many teams potentially having so much cap space (and presumably a desire to spend the money) so-so players might find a strong market for their services. Add in the fact that the focus here is free-agent centers in a league where “quality big man” is usually near the top of the list of wants for most teams in the league, and it makes things even more unpredictable.
(To illustrate that point, see this quote from Magic GM Otis Smith explaining why he used the full mid-level exception last year to re-sign Marcin Gortat, a backup center of modest accomplishment: “Like I said before, we’re in a league that probably only has 10 centers. We just happen to have two. It’s a luxury.”)
But we can look at what happened with free agent centers in years past to get some kind of feel for what the market might dictate. Then I’ll look at some of the free-agent centers for a clue as to what the Hawks might reasonably find available for the mid-level exception.
In 2008, centers Emeka Okafor and Andrew Bogut got the big money, with each signing five-year deals averaging $12 million . Bogut signed an extension before the final year of his rookie contract. The Bobcats signed Okafor to the deal after it had extended a one-year qualifying offer for $7.1 million and after DeSagna Diop turned down their contract starting at the mid-level.
Diop signed a comparable deal with Dallas, so he is the kind of center the full mid-level got you in 2008. But the market was different back then. There were only four or five teams with enough salary-cap space to add players with significant salaries, compared with eight or nine that could do so this summer. So if a salary starting at $5.6 million got you Diop back then, a salary starting at $5.73 million (Larry Coon’s estimate for the mid-level in 2010-11) may not get you even that much now.
Last summer the Cavs signed Anderson Varejao to a deal worth a bit more than the mid-level with five years guaranteed. The Magic matched the offer sheet Gortat signed with Dallas for the full mid-level. And Boston added Rasheed Wallace using their full mid-level exception (yeah, I know, ‘Sheed ain’t exactly a banger in the post but he’s savvy enough to play center as he showed against Dwight Howard). Once again the market was different in 2009, with not so many teams with significant cap space, but it’s a starting point.
That gives us a list of free-agent, mid-level centers (or in Varejao’s case, near it) over the last two years that includes Diop, Varejao, Gortat and Wallace. Looking at how they compared statistically in 2009-10, it seems the Celtics overpayed for ‘Sheed, but then again what they really paid for is what he’s doing now in the playoffs.
So with those four players as the baseline, which 2010 NBA free-agent centers compare as far as their production while also taking their age into account? After crunching the numbers and considering the market, my (subjective) list includes Brendan Haywood, Shaquille O’Neal, Joel Przybilla, Brad Miller and Darko Milicic. Now, like I said, perhaps interest from with salary-cap space drives up the price of these players, or maybe teams they aren’t even worth the full mid-level at this point, but I’m putting them out there for comparison and discussion (hey, it’s June 1 and things are quiet).
The best (realistic) option among the group might be Haywood, who made $6 million this season. He will be 31 in November, which makes him about three years older than Varejao was when he got his deal from Cleveland. So even if he finds his market value inflated he may not be able to attract more than the mid-level, particularly if he wants three years or more.
Haywood and Varejao have remarkably similar statistical profiles. Haywood has a comparable player efficiency rating, rebounding percentage, true shooting percentage and is a better shot-blocker. Varejao is a more effective passer and gets more steals.
Haywood is better than Diop, who turns 29 next January (though he should have plenty of tread left with an average of 14.3 minutes in 536 games). Przybilla (who has a $7.4 million player option for 2009-10) turns 31 before next season; he had a good year in 2008-09 but wasn’t productive during an injury-marred season in 2009-10.
Miller, 34, fell off this season. Shaq actually had a pretty efficient year but age, injury and motivation are concerns so his days of big money are over. Darko ($7.5 million) is still only 24-years old if you can believe that but he’s still mostly about size and potential and isn’t really a willing defender or rebounder.
Haywood, by the way, said he wants to re-sign with the Mavericks. Apparently, watching old and injured Erick Dampier start over him didn’t sour him on his experience in Dallas. The Mavs, who hold Haywood’s Bird Rights, apparently are high on him. Coach Rick Carlisle to NBA.com:
“It’s very important to get Haywood re-signed. I really liked what he did for us. He’s a guy that had an impact on both ends. At 30 years old, he’s relatively young for a center. Centers tend to play for a very long time…Brendan is very athletic. He’s got a good feel for the game. He’s got a good knowledge of the game.”
Some other potential free-agent centers who likely won’t get the full mid-level if they hit the market: Channing Frye ($2.08 million player option for 2010-11), Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Nenad Krstic ($5.4 million player option for 2010-11), Chris Wilcox ($3 million player option for 2010-11), Ben Wallace, and Theo Ratliff.
A full list of free agents by position is available at Hoopsworld.com.
– All appears calm on the coaching search front with ASG’s Michael Gearon Jr. away on business until next week. Mark Jackson interviewed over the weekend but he still looks to be a long shot due to his lack of coaching experience.
MC
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397 comments Add your comment
Feudfinder
June 3rd, 2010
10:00 am
That was a good one RAMON. Get a good coach, get a notable center, sign JJ, and Atlanta is ours.
O'Brien
June 3rd, 2010
10:02 am
I haven’t read the interview, so I don’t know the quotes or the context. But if Al did in fact say publicly that he wants to play PF, then I would be disappointed in him. He is on his way to being one of the leaders on this team, so I don’t think he should speak out publicly like that.
But the Hawks are fine with Al and Josh. What they need is a defensive minded center with size, who can play 20 mpg backing up Al, and can play center when Al gives Josh a break at PF.
JoJo,
Speaking of undersized PFs, here is a name for you. Craig Smith. He is 26, unrestricted and only made $2.3 mil playing for the Clippers last year. He averaged 8 and 4 in 16 mpg. I think we can sign him for the bi-annual exception (~$2.9 mil). He has flaws, but I think he would be worth the price.
bigdave
June 3rd, 2010
10:13 am
“For all the talk of how Horford is not a center, there are two centers in the league who cause him problems — Howard and the Shaq/Ilgauskas combo. Horford at least holds his own against every other center in the league, including Brook Lopez, Andrew Bogut, Andrew Bynum, Brendan Haywood, as well as the pseudo-centers like Bosh and Amare that so many people on this blog have a hard-on for. Blowing up an otherwise very productive front court because two teams in the league give the Hawks problems is an idiotic idea.”
…….
exactly. Al Horford is a center people.
Ramon
June 3rd, 2010
10:20 am
Thank you @ Bigdave!
Rod from College Park
June 3rd, 2010
10:55 am
“It’s like Rod says about Marvin . . the dude is wide open on most plays in which teams go to double JJ. When he gets open looks, he HAS to knock them down. If he misses, he’s not going to get the ball.
People talk about ball movement. But what good is ball movement, if guys can’t do basic things to score the basketball? The purpose of ball movement is to get the best possible shot, whether that’s a lay-up or a wide open jumper. If guys get the ball in scoring position . . . score the basketball.”
I couldn’t have said it better. So I guess people really think that he will knock those jumpshots down with a defender in his face. LOL
“Marvin could be a consistent 15-16PPG scorer if we brought him off picks for open jumpers, and as a spot up jumpshooter with a penetrating PG that can draw and kick. Hell, why make an issue of Marvins dribbling and driving difficulties, when we’ve all seen JJ and Crawford struggle with ISO’s and one on one, even with their excellent penetrating and ball handling skills.”
Marvin will never in his basketball career get more open jumpers than he has gotten in the last two years. Stop with the Rip Hamilton comparisons also. They are not even close to similar players. Rip could do it all, and Marvin can’t. Plus Rip was always considered one of the most well conditioned athletes in the game, and he could run all day, Marvin can’t. The bottom line on Marvin is this, he can practice, get put in a motion offense, play in the triangle, but the fact that his is goofy, and clumsy, and timid will never change. I promise you that there are guys in high school right now, who could provide more for the Hawks than he could today.
GeeMack
June 3rd, 2010
11:19 am
I have seen a lot of really good suggestions on this blog. However most of them involve not breaking up the core group.
The Hawks won’t be better by bringing back Chills. The teams that dominated you last year will the same if the Hawks don’t upgrade their talent.
Remember JJ is not leaving ATL, because he wants more money. He’s leaving because in the 5 yrs he’s been here the organization have not brought in anyone of significance to help bring in a title.
We know all champioship teams have the same make up; 2 or 3 great core players, and they are very great defensive teams.
Grandad
June 3rd, 2010
11:23 am
Najeh:
Art is short for ”Artsiom”
*Artsiom Parakhouski* – I’m not makin’ it up.
“sounds like someone who is more likely to win the Nobel Prize in Literature than the NBA Finals.”…..Now that’s funny !
O’B:
Craig Smith – Co-sign ! – I think they call him the ”Bull”.
lewis
June 3rd, 2010
11:26 am
I’m just saying, there’s going to be absolutely nothing we can do to stop Horford from leaving when a team in playoff contention with a “true” center offers Al a contract to play PF.
lewis
June 3rd, 2010
11:31 am
not that they can afford it…..but…
C – Noah
PF – Horford
SF – Deng
SG- Joe Johnson
PG – Derrick Rose
Ramon
June 3rd, 2010
11:54 am
Lewis, we can offer Horford more money. That’s something we can do.
JoJo the Godfather
June 3rd, 2010
11:57 am
Quest….If Josh is the superior player to Horford, then why was Horford chosen for the all star game rather than Smith? They just trying to pizz you off?…Also, here’s what Hoopinion has to say about a Josh & Al comparison:
“Josh Smith (deservedly) gets talked about in terms of what he might become and what the hypothetical consolidation and maturation of his talents might mean for the Atlanta Hawks. Even though Al Horford’s skills are more conventional he should probably be discussed in similar terms. Horford recognizes his strengths and weaknesses more readily than does Smith so his improvement has and could come from refining his existing skills rather than a hope for enlightenment.”
“Whether or not Horford improves his post game sufficiently to consistently draw a double-team and thus fully take advantage of his passing ability will likely determine whether he remains an arguable All-Star or becomes an arguable All-NBA player.”
“Horford complemented his work in and around the paint with a devastatingly accurate face-up jumper. 21.5% of Horford’s field goal attempts came between 16 and 23 feet. It’s the worst percentage shot in the game in general, but not so much so if one, as Horford did last season, makes the shot 48% of the time rather than the league average of 39.8% and uses the shot judiciously….Josh Smith took 64 more long jump shots than Horford and made 20 fewer.”
“Horford’s defensive role was essentially the opposite of his offensive role. Mike Woodson’s switching defense called on Horford to do everything: guard the opposing center in the post, guard the opposing point guard away from the basket on the screen-and-roll, help on dribble penetration from the wings, and rebound the misses. If defensive usage rate were a real thing rather than a term of art, then Horford presumably would have been among the league leaders as his all-court defensive effort rarely failed to impress.”
“it’s not inconceivable that Horford (already the superior defensive rebounder) could challenge Josh Smith as the team’s best defender.”
Ramon
June 3rd, 2010
12:09 pm
Jojo, Horford made the all star game because he was listed at a different position than Josh was. Horford wouldn’t have made the all star game at the PF position, because the PF position is more saturated with talent than the C position is. Actually Horford wouldn’t have started at PF for any of the other 7 teams that made it to the 2nd round of the play offs this season. So its very questionable as to why everyone wants to move him to PF, when he wouldn’t be in the top 10 PFs in the league, and yes Josh is in the top 10 PFs in the league.
Ramon
June 3rd, 2010
12:10 pm
Jojo that is also why Josh received more votes for ALL NBA this past season than Horford.
Ramon
June 3rd, 2010
12:12 pm
Jojo, I’m sorry the coaches of the NBA listed Josh as the 7th best PF in the league.
Ramon
June 3rd, 2010
12:20 pm
Also, of the 6 PFs ranked higher than Josh, by the coaches, you can argue three of them (Duncan, Nowitzki, and Gasol) have already played their basketball and are on the decline of their career, while Josh hasn’t even peaked. So its easy to see Josh being in the top 3-4 PFs for the next 5-6 seasons. Also for whoever said Al recognizes his flaws more than Josh’s. I would beg to ask the question since entering the league, who has shown more improvement in their game, Josh or Al. Al is a great player and I want to see Josh and he continue to be on the Atlanta Hawks for a long time. But Al isn’t doing anything this season that he wasn’t doing as a rookie. His leadership skills are improving, but other than that you can’t tell any major difference in his game. However, each season NBA coaches marvel at the development of different aspects of Josh’s game. So I would think Josh has more of a chance of improving than Al does.
lewis
June 3rd, 2010
12:44 pm
of the PF’s rated above Josh, they are all bigger and can all hit jumpshots. they also don’t suffer from consistent in-game mental lapses like Josh does. Don’t get me wrong, I love Josh’s game, it’s his decision making process in the clutch that frightens me.
Sautee
June 3rd, 2010
12:45 pm
Truth-serum said:
“Altlanta (sic) needs a starting center who can and will play defense because defense wins ball games. and particularly defense under the basket.”
Hey Truth-serum, you keep running from this:
How much did having the Defensive Player of the Year and the league’s top shot blocker help Orlando?
I’ll wait.
Ramon
June 3rd, 2010
12:51 pm
Lewis, Josh is more clutch than Horford, and has proven that many times. Also Bosh isn’t bigger than Josh. And Gasol isn’t stronger than Josh. Gasol, Dirk, and Duncan are bigger than Al too because they’re over 7 ft. Many of the points and rebounds that Horford gets come from the plays that Josh creates. How many times a game does Josh find Horford in the lane for easy FG attempts (especially in the games where Josh gets tired of JJ and Crawford ballhogging). Many of Josh’s decisions came from the offense that Woody ran where he didn’t hold the backcourt accountable for not getting the frontcourt more touches in a good position.
Ramon
June 3rd, 2010
12:52 pm
LOL @ Sautee.
Ramon
June 3rd, 2010
12:52 pm
Sautee it helped about the same amount that Bynum is helping the Lakers
JoJo the Godfather
June 3rd, 2010
12:53 pm
Ramon…you have no idea where coaches would rank Horford at PF. It would not be a surprise to see him ranked ahead of Smith. The way Al scores in the post, his #’s would only improve if he was getting to post up PF’s rather than C’s, and have PF’s trying to block him out rather than C’s.
“Actually Horford wouldn’t have started at PF for any of the other 7 teams that made it to the 2nd round”….Horford would have easily started for Orlando & Cleveland, and Phoenix & San Antonio would have just moved Amare & Duncan to C to make room (they both play a lot of minutes there already).
“But Al isn’t doing anything this season that he wasn’t doing as a rookie”….hmmm, that 15 footer he added this year was solid. how is josh’s jumper coming along? who scores at a higher rate around the basket? who’s the better rebounder?….did you catch the line above that said Josh had taken 64 more long jump shots last year than Al and had made 20 less than Al? Don’t mistake flash for substance. They are both great players, but Al is the better player right now. If Josh can speed up his release and hit the 15 footer on occasion and grow up mentally, then he could pass Horford.
Sautee
June 3rd, 2010
12:54 pm
Ramon and bigdave,
It just goes to show that when one has an unquenchable hatred for a player, that facts such as:
– An All-Star berth
– the stats that northcyde brought showing Al to be the best defender of his man %-wise
- playoff blocks (Al was 4th among all centers)
– Mike Woodson himself (Truth-serum’s wet dream) saying “I remember last year after Al got hurt those two times … We were exposed. Al’s the one guy I feared going down.”
Those things are ALL summarily ignored.
It’s gotta be the HATE.
Ramon
June 3rd, 2010
1:12 pm
Jojo, Horford doesn’t finish around the basket better than Josh. If you just posted a stat that said Al shoots that much better from 15 feet than Josh does, and Josh is only shooting .45% lower than Al, wouldn’t that mean that Josh must be a better scorer and more efficient scorer than Al is around the basket? How else would it be that close? Josh is a better rebounder than Al. There are many rebounds that Al gets because Josh allows him to get them (Josh isn’t one who cares about stats, just winning). Also one or two rebounds of Al’s come AFTER a defensive possession where Josh defensive pressure has forced the opposing team into a bad shot. And if you observe the stats you will also see Al only averages 0.1 more offensive rebounds than Josh. Yet we’re all aware of the positioning of Woody’s scheme that left Josh out on the perimeter constantly. So if Al is a better rebounder, how is it that he averaged the same amount of offensive rebounds as Josh does, when Al is under the basket more often than Josh? Also think about the team, somehow Josh manages to be in the top 3 in every category (except 3pt statistics and jumpers percentages) for the team. And you stated that Josh scares you in the clutch. So how is it that every one say Josh had a bad postseason for him, and yet he had the exact same averages during the postseason as Al did, yet no one says Al had a bad postseason. That either means more is expected out of Josh on a regular basis, and he normally provides it, or Al didn’t perform in the post season either.
By the way, you say if Al played for the Spurs or Suns Amare or Duncan would’ve played the C position. So wouldn’t that mean that another coach would’ve had a natural PF playing the C position? Because neither Amare nor Duncan is a natural C. And with Amare, Al still would’ve ended up guarding the C position. Out of Amare, Duncan, Dirk, Boozer, Bosh, and Gasol which one you think Al is better than? Because those are the only PFs the League voted higher than Josh. And I don’t see Al being better than either of those 6 either.
Ramon
June 3rd, 2010
1:19 pm
Sautee, in my mind Al is a great player. But he’s not the best PF on this team, where as he can be in the top 3 Centers in the league! Its all about match ups. Al dominates 95% of the centers in the league! Al and Josh together dominate 95% of the frontcourts in the league. If the main two problems that Al and Josh face can be addressed (more defensive awareness on the backcourt, and another defensive minded big who can come off of the bench, Zaza isn’t defensive minded), then there’s no way that Josh and Al won’t come close to dominating 100% of the league on more nights. Dwight Howard didn’t beat the Hawks. Last season, Z didn’t beat the Hawks. Open 3 pt shooters, and Lebron beat the the Hawks!
JoJo the Godfather
June 3rd, 2010
1:28 pm
“And I don’t see Al being better than either of those 6 either.”….maybe not, but he’s better than Josh.
“If you just posted a stat that said Al shoots that much better from 15 feet than Josh does, and Josh is only shooting .45% lower than Al, wouldn’t that mean that Josh must be a better scorer and more efficient scorer than Al is around the basket?”….not necessarily, it depends on how many shots you take in each category. if he takes more shots around the basket, then he can close the gap in total shooting % even though Al may make a higher % in that range as well.
Josh had a bad postseason because he was seen multiple times walking down the court with is lip stuck out like a 4 year old. Josh is not a bad kid. You never read about him in the paper doing something wrong. He just needs to be more professional and mature. Being around immaturity will pizz a grown man off when having a bad day at work (round 2 of the playoffs).
JoJo the Godfather
June 3rd, 2010
1:31 pm
One last comment on the subject. I support Josh being our starting PF in 2010, and Al being our starting C. But if I had to chose one today to move forward with…to build my franchise around…then I’d chose Al Horford. He has the intangibles to make those around him better.
O'Brien
June 3rd, 2010
1:32 pm
Josh has shown tremendous improvement since coming to the League. But the main reason for that is because when he came into the league, he was 19, with no college experience. When Al got here, he had 3 years experience at a very good program (Florida) with back to back NCAA championships, so his game was more refined.
The article summed it up well though. Horford knows his limitations, so he plays within himself. Would he be a better PF than Josh? I don’t know. But he wouldn’t have the ups and downs that Josh has. Tim Duncan is known as the big fundamental because he does not have any flash to his game. But he gets the job done.
Al is not on his level, but thats how his game is. Not very flashy. Josh, on the other hand, will have the highlight dunk, or the awesome pass etc. But Al is more likely not to make the silly plays that Josh makes.
I agree with Ramon. I don’t think the Hawks have to choose between Josh and Al (not yet anyway). All the Hawks need is a defensive minded center who can backup Al, and can play more minutes as needed against the bigger front lines. Personally, I like having Josh and Al on the team together. But we need a defensive minded center. ZaZa is not cutting it on defense.
Ramon
June 3rd, 2010
1:34 pm
But Jojo, you just said Josh took 64 more jumpers than Al. So once again if Josh shoots so much more poorly from the basket than Al, and yet their FG% is so close. That must means Josh shoots well above Al from attempts around the basket.
Mr. Logic
June 3rd, 2010
1:35 pm
Someone wrote earlier about a trade with the Hawks sending Joe Johnson & Marv Williams for Igudala & Dalembert of the Sixers. Scratch Igudala!! He is a decent player but decent small forwards are common and can be found easier than any other player. The player they can probably get in the trade and need the most is LOUIS WILLIAMS..the PG from ATL. He is the man… and with a defensive minded coaching staff and some good home cooking, he can win most improved player of the year. His ball handling and passing skills have step up since his rookie year, it’s obvious he works at his game. With a real center to work with Smith and Horford inside, they can win the NBA Championship. Plus, Philly can draft another point guard with the #2 pick this year. Mark my words Louis can be the great point guard Atlanta needs. I would even add Jeff Teague if need be (he is not a great ballhandler in my opinion). Rick S. should make it happen.
But he won’t, cause he is Rick Sund.
I remember him in my Dallas days. The Dallas Mavs with Rick Sund and Norm S drafted SF Mark Aguire, instead of Isiah Thomas PG with the first pick they ever had..dumb..real dumb.
Doesn’t that remind you of someone?
Ramon
June 3rd, 2010
1:42 pm
O’Brien, you think Horford would be able to guard the PFs such as Gerald Wallace, Lewis, Bosh, Dirk, Kenyon Martin, and other mobile PFs? I’m not asking for debate, just asking to know your opinion on that.
Jojo, if Josh is a better defensive player than Al, and if Josh does more things offensively than Al, how is Al better? The things that Josh does better than Al, he does better by a wide margin. The things that Al does better than Josh, he barely does it better than Josh. The thing that everyone says when looking at Al is solid. And that’s good. But on a BAD night Josh gives you 14/8/4apg/2bpg/1spg. That’s on a BAD night. On a good night, Josh gives you 23/12/6apg/3bpg/1.5-2spg. On every night Al gives you 14/10/1apg/1bpg/0spg. So how is Al better? If Al doesn’t score over 10 points, the only other thing he can do is rebound. If Josh doesn’t score over 10 points in a game, you still have to check to see what he did on the boards, in assists, on blocks, and in the passing lanes. Not to mention, most times its Josh’s outlet passes that lead to the best fast breaks for the Hawks.
JoJo the Godfather
June 3rd, 2010
1:44 pm
“But Jojo, you just said Josh took 64 more jumpers than Al. So once again if Josh shoots so much more poorly from the basket than Al, and yet their FG% is so close. That must means Josh shoots well above Al from attempts around the basket.”….again, not necessarily. that’s not how averages work. If Horford shoots 40% higher on a 100 shots, and 2% higher on 1,000 shots, then the total shooting % will be closer to the 2% # than the 40% #. Just concern yourself with total shooting %, 5% or so is a huge difference over a full season. Given 20 shots a game, thats an extra basket every game or 2pts on your scoring avg.
JoJo the Godfather
June 3rd, 2010
1:54 pm
“But on a BAD night Josh gives you 14/8/4apg/2bpg/1spg”….
now give me turnovers, shooting %, and how bad he disrupts the team chemistry with his whining….
Sautee
June 3rd, 2010
2:20 pm
Ramon, Jojo, and others,
Al is an All-Star Center. Whether he is better at PF than Josh is a moot point.
I agree that Al likely does NOT make the All-Star team as a PF. His advantage is his quickness, relentlessness and footwork against slower players.
You know it’s funny that Dave Cowens and Wes Unseld can be in the Hall of Fame at 6′ 9″ and 6″ 7.5″ when THEY played against “true centers” like Wilt, Nate Thurmond, and Kareem, but Horford is “too small” to play against far smaller centers these days. LOL.
drmaryb
June 3rd, 2010
2:30 pm
BIGS
Those the biggest & ugliest list of names I have ever heard. Dampieer being the ugliest of them all!
I wouldn’t pay “one-red-coin” to see any of these cats play at Phillips Arena!
BTW, is Dampieer still in the league? I mean really! This pile of BS we are shifting through is pathetic &
at the end of the day – we will see Perkins -vs- Gasol. Is that – “As Good As It Gets?”
Again, with that #24 pick? Take the best BIG available & call it a day!
now, go home people.
SMH
Ramon
June 3rd, 2010
2:47 pm
Jojo, on that bad night, he disrupts the team so much they manage to win 53 games. And when he’s out of the lineup the points in the paint goes up over 50%. He disrupts the team so much that everyone sees he’s easily the biggest cheerleader for his teammates over anyone on the team. He doesn’t disrupt the team any more than JJ dribbling the ball for 18 seconds and then passing the ball to Smoove with 5 seconds on the shot clock. He doesn’t disrupt the team any more than Bibby inability to stay in front of his man constantly puts the front line at disadvantages. He doesn’t disrupt the team any more than Crawford coming down and shooting on 4 out of 6 offensive possessions and missing on all 4. We sit here and watch the games, and we complain about officiating and Woody. Yet its merely a hobby or interest to us, and we’re not investing anything more than $200 for tickets or 3 hours out of the day 3x a week, and some of us be on here about to go crazy. Yet we expect Josh (and other NBA players) to do this for a living, give upto 16 hours a day and every ounce of energy they have into succeeding. Yet when faced with a coach who’s inapt to drawing an offensive play or a referee who’s unfairly calling a game, we expect these same players to calmly turn around and walk back down the court. Yet Kobe, Wade, and others all had more technical fouls than Josh did. However, when they do it, its called the will to win. But we call Josh a whiner for it. Kobe and Wade have both lead to a coach being fired or released out of their contract. Kobe and Wade have both PUBLICLY complained about teammates and coaching staffs inability to do things. Yet Smoove shows frustration from things going on on the court, or mistakes that Woody continued to make after 5 seasons. Yet we call him a whiner for it. See how Smoove is under another coach before labeling him that.
Ramon
June 3rd, 2010
2:49 pm
By the way, Wade and Kobe have both been slow to get back on defense on numerous occasions, (even Lebron has). Josh’s ability is his own worst enemy because for the last 4 seasons, we’ve spent more time talking about Josh than any other player. Yet fail to realize that his play constantly draws you into looking at him for the good and bad. Some of you only look at what Josh is doing on defense/offense, instead of seeing how Josh is often times directing HORFORD AND MARVIN as to where to go on offensive sets.
HawksMagic
June 3rd, 2010
2:52 pm
Why not sign kendric perkins from boston? He would b the piece that atlanta needs….Just saying!
O'Brien
June 3rd, 2010
3:17 pm
Ramon,
Defensively, I think horford could guard a lot of those guys. But one area where Josh has the edge like you mentioned, is the intangibles.
Although i think on horford’s best night, he might have the potential for 28 points, 15 rebounds and 2 blocks. on Josh’s best night, he has the potential for 24 points, 10 rebounds, 4 blocks, 4 assists, and 2 steals (close to the numbers you mentioned). Thats awesome from your PF.
And the big advantage that horford has at center will not be there if he switches to PF. So I’m okay with horford starting at center. But we new a defensive center to back him up.
Plus I think Josh will improve even more under our new head coach.
drmaryb
June 3rd, 2010
3:40 pm
INTANGIBLES
How do you call Josh’s stat lines INTANGIBLES we you can see, touch and feel them?
Derek
June 3rd, 2010
4:10 pm
I like the Brandon Heyward idea. Hawks shoulg pursue that one.
O'Brien
June 3rd, 2010
5:15 pm
Drmaryb,
I stand corrected. Josh is the stat sheet filler upper, while horford has the leadership, which is more of the intangible
ASG is cheap!
June 3rd, 2010
7:25 pm
Why on earth are Hawks fans wanting Joe back? The guy bashed the city and quit on this team during the most important time of the year. If we max out JJ, the Hawks will always be a 2nd round team. Complacency has to stop in Atlanta sports. JJ is not a star player, let him leave and let’s build around what we have and hope to free up money for Carmelo next season.
Ramon
June 3rd, 2010
8:02 pm
Big Ray, I stated Gerald Wallace. Wallace is simply listed best as a F, not a SF or a PF. He plays equal time at both positions often (he and Diaw are often interchanged).
If River leaves Boston, my wild guess is their next coach will be Phil Jackson, Rudy Tomjanovich, or possibly Jeff Van Gundy.
Simpdawg
June 4th, 2010
11:06 am
Ramon,
If Doc Rivers decides not to return to the Celtics next season, many believe that Kevin McHale may coach the team. A number of NBA coaching sources told ESPN.com’s Marc Stein that McHale would receive strong consideration for the job should Rivers walk away. Former NBA point guard and current ESPN analyst Mark Jackson has never coached in the NBA but he’s getting a second interview for the Atlanta Hawks head-coaching gig, according to AOL Fanhouse.
PURE
June 5th, 2010
2:57 pm
Hire Mark Jackson & run Marvin Williams out of the ATL!…
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