Atlanta Hawks: Attention on centers
Can Haywood really be had for the mid-level?
The Hawks say they are looking to free agency instead of the draft for frontcourt help. At this point it’s not clear if that need supersedes their desire for a starting-caliber point guard (in case the Jeff Teague thing doesn’t yield immediate fruits) or wing player (in case J.J. bolts in free agency). This is especially the case since the returning frontcourt (Al, Josh, and Zaza) might be a stronger group than the returning backcourt (Bibby, Jamal, Marvin and Teague).
But since the draft doesn’t look like it will yield a big man who can contribute now at pick No. 24, and Jason Collins and Randolph Morris both are free agents, the Hawks will need a center one way or the other. Let’s assume they won’t go the vet-minimum route this time and will actually use their mid-level exception to seek a starting-caliber center (neither assumption is safe, but let’s just say both are plausible). What kind of center could the Hawks expect to acquire in free agency this summer?
First, let me say that trying to predict the market for free agents this summer is tricky. With so many teams potentially having so much cap space (and presumably a desire to spend the money) so-so players might find a strong market for their services. Add in the fact that the focus here is free-agent centers in a league where “quality big man” is usually near the top of the list of wants for most teams in the league, and it makes things even more unpredictable.
(To illustrate that point, see this quote from Magic GM Otis Smith explaining why he used the full mid-level exception last year to re-sign Marcin Gortat, a backup center of modest accomplishment: “Like I said before, we’re in a league that probably only has 10 centers. We just happen to have two. It’s a luxury.”)
But we can look at what happened with free agent centers in years past to get some kind of feel for what the market might dictate. Then I’ll look at some of the free-agent centers for a clue as to what the Hawks might reasonably find available for the mid-level exception.
In 2008, centers Emeka Okafor and Andrew Bogut got the big money, with each signing five-year deals averaging $12 million . Bogut signed an extension before the final year of his rookie contract. The Bobcats signed Okafor to the deal after it had extended a one-year qualifying offer for $7.1 million and after DeSagna Diop turned down their contract starting at the mid-level.
Diop signed a comparable deal with Dallas, so he is the kind of center the full mid-level got you in 2008. But the market was different back then. There were only four or five teams with enough salary-cap space to add players with significant salaries, compared with eight or nine that could do so this summer. So if a salary starting at $5.6 million got you Diop back then, a salary starting at $5.73 million (Larry Coon’s estimate for the mid-level in 2010-11) may not get you even that much now.
Last summer the Cavs signed Anderson Varejao to a deal worth a bit more than the mid-level with five years guaranteed. The Magic matched the offer sheet Gortat signed with Dallas for the full mid-level. And Boston added Rasheed Wallace using their full mid-level exception (yeah, I know, ‘Sheed ain’t exactly a banger in the post but he’s savvy enough to play center as he showed against Dwight Howard). Once again the market was different in 2009, with not so many teams with significant cap space, but it’s a starting point.
That gives us a list of free-agent, mid-level centers (or in Varejao’s case, near it) over the last two years that includes Diop, Varejao, Gortat and Wallace. Looking at how they compared statistically in 2009-10, it seems the Celtics overpayed for ‘Sheed, but then again what they really paid for is what he’s doing now in the playoffs.
So with those four players as the baseline, which 2010 NBA free-agent centers compare as far as their production while also taking their age into account? After crunching the numbers and considering the market, my (subjective) list includes Brendan Haywood, Shaquille O’Neal, Joel Przybilla, Brad Miller and Darko Milicic. Now, like I said, perhaps interest from with salary-cap space drives up the price of these players, or maybe teams they aren’t even worth the full mid-level at this point, but I’m putting them out there for comparison and discussion (hey, it’s June 1 and things are quiet).
The best (realistic) option among the group might be Haywood, who made $6 million this season. He will be 31 in November, which makes him about three years older than Varejao was when he got his deal from Cleveland. So even if he finds his market value inflated he may not be able to attract more than the mid-level, particularly if he wants three years or more.
Haywood and Varejao have remarkably similar statistical profiles. Haywood has a comparable player efficiency rating, rebounding percentage, true shooting percentage and is a better shot-blocker. Varejao is a more effective passer and gets more steals.
Haywood is better than Diop, who turns 29 next January (though he should have plenty of tread left with an average of 14.3 minutes in 536 games). Przybilla (who has a $7.4 million player option for 2009-10) turns 31 before next season; he had a good year in 2008-09 but wasn’t productive during an injury-marred season in 2009-10.
Miller, 34, fell off this season. Shaq actually had a pretty efficient year but age, injury and motivation are concerns so his days of big money are over. Darko ($7.5 million) is still only 24-years old if you can believe that but he’s still mostly about size and potential and isn’t really a willing defender or rebounder.
Haywood, by the way, said he wants to re-sign with the Mavericks. Apparently, watching old and injured Erick Dampier start over him didn’t sour him on his experience in Dallas. The Mavs, who hold Haywood’s Bird Rights, apparently are high on him. Coach Rick Carlisle to NBA.com:
“It’s very important to get Haywood re-signed. I really liked what he did for us. He’s a guy that had an impact on both ends. At 30 years old, he’s relatively young for a center. Centers tend to play for a very long time…Brendan is very athletic. He’s got a good feel for the game. He’s got a good knowledge of the game.”
Some other potential free-agent centers who likely won’t get the full mid-level if they hit the market: Channing Frye ($2.08 million player option for 2010-11), Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Nenad Krstic ($5.4 million player option for 2010-11), Chris Wilcox ($3 million player option for 2010-11), Ben Wallace, and Theo Ratliff.
A full list of free agents by position is available at Hoopsworld.com.
– All appears calm on the coaching search front with ASG’s Michael Gearon Jr. away on business until next week. Mark Jackson interviewed over the weekend but he still looks to be a long shot due to his lack of coaching experience.
MC
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397 comments Add your comment
cdog
June 2nd, 2010
9:12 pm
granddad, to answer your question, no. sund has shown his true nature as a GM.he’s terrible.he has blown 2 years in which he could have improve the team to get past the cavs,majic, and celtics in a playoff series.he did nothing, then turn around and blamed a coach who won won 53 games with short handed personnel compared to those teams and fired him unneccesarily.he sit back while cleveland acquired shaq, then had a chance to get stackhouse but let orlando get him.he could have been a big help to the hawks better than to the majic.he did bring in CRAWFORD BUT HE KNEW IT TOOK MORE THAN JUST A 2 GUARD TO GET PAST THOSE BIG 3 BUT HE WAS MORE CONCERN WITH SAVING MONEY THAN WINNING A CHAMPIONSHIP.sund just isn’t a basketball person. ANY GM WHO MAKES A STATEMENT, “YOU DON’T TRADE FOR SUPERSTARS, YOU DRAFT THEM”, CAN’T BE ALL THERE.he does not have the guts of a danny ainge or the good gms in the league.also, no i would not hire you if you made a tape.no one would learn any thing from yours.the way you judge basketball now supports that. you have to know the game and be real about it.not see things blindly because of personal feelings .
JoJo the Godfather
June 2nd, 2010
9:19 pm
Najeh…nice try saying gortat is zaza 2.0. they’re not even close to the same type of player. zaza’s never had a fg% over 50%. zaza’s never been known as a shotblocker. zaza’s only had a rebound rate per 40 over 11 once. gortat has a career (3 yrs) fg% of 54%. he’s never avgd less than 12.5 rebs per 40 minutes. he won the german cup 3 years, and led the 2009 european championships in rebounds. he’s known as a rebounder and defender. zaza is known as more of an offensive center….and besides, you’re forgetting the trade was for bass and gortat and it saves us $1.5M in salaries this year.
JoJo the Godfather
June 2nd, 2010
9:22 pm
we could have orlando throw in the rights to fran vazquez as well.
Ramon
June 2nd, 2010
9:24 pm
Grandad I would be for that trade! I really don’t see how anyone wouldn’t.
Najeh Davenpoop
June 2nd, 2010
9:40 pm
“Najeh…nice try saying gortat is zaza 2.0. they’re not even close to the same type of player. ”
You completely missed the point. The point is you can’t just see that a guy blocks a shot and gets 4 boards in 12 minutes and assume he’s going to block 3 shots and get 12 boards if he plays 36 minutes. If that was the case, based on his per minute stats as a backup in Milwaukee, Zaza would have been among the league leaders in rebounding and would have contended for an All-Star spot in Atlanta. Like I said before, Gortat’s numbers come against second string players and most of his shots are dunks set up by his superior teammates.
Taking a chance on a guy like that is fine if you give up nothing to get him. If you are giving up the #2 DPOY to get him, it’s lunacy.
And I’m not including Brandon Bass in this discussion because undersized PFs who get boards are a dime a dozen, and most of them don’t require paying them $12 million over the next three years.
JoJo the Godfather
June 2nd, 2010
9:52 pm
“If that was the case, based on his per minute stats as a backup in Milwaukee, Zaza would have been among the league leaders in rebounding and would have contended for an All-Star spot in Atlanta.”
No, based on his number in Milwaukee, he would avg 12 pts and 18 rebs in a 36 minute game. The next year in Atlanta, he averaged 12 pts and 8 rebs in 31 minutes a game. So not far off from his stats.
“And I’m not including Brandon Bass in this discussion because undersized PFs who get boards are a dime a dozen, and most of them don’t require paying them $12 million over the next three years.”
Please name 3 that are available to the Hawks that can shoot 50%+ from the floor, 80%+ from the line, and rebound at the rate Bass can.
JoJo the Godfather
June 2nd, 2010
9:54 pm
That should read avg 12 pts and 10 rebs in a 36 minute game (for ZaZa).
Najeh Davenpoop
June 2nd, 2010
10:15 pm
“Please name 3 that are available to the Hawks that can shoot 50%+ from the floor, 80%+ from the line, and rebound at the rate Bass can.”
Sure. Udonis Haslem. Glen Davis. DeJuan Blair. Leon Powe. Tyler Hansbrough. Taj Gibson. Drew Gooden. I could go on but I’m too lazy. I’m sure one or two of them may not meet all your criteria, but at the rate at which undersized PFs off the bench put up shots and free throws, that’s a difference of less than a point and less than a rebound per game. I think it’s pretty telling that on a team that was getting out-physicaled against Boston, Bass still didn’t managed to get any playing time.
Anyway, all this is beside the point. The point is that trading 16 points 8 boards, top 20 in the league in blocks and steals, top 3 help defender in the league, top 10 passer among NBA big men, #2 in DPOY for the possibility of 10 points, 10 boards, and 2 blocks at center and an interchangeable undersized backup PF is foolish.
By the way, Gortat averages $6.5 million over the course of his contract, which runs for another 4 years. Along with Bass’ deal, that totals $10.5 million a year for two backup players, neither of whom has proven they can be a viable starter. In what universe is that a better investment than $11 million a year for a guy with Josh’s credentials?
northcyde
June 2nd, 2010
10:25 pm
O’Brien
June 2nd, 2010
5:18 pm
Ray,
Northcyde fails to acknowledge that a part of Woody’s job description is player development. And it doesnt matter what industry you work in. You have to find the balance between short term goals and long term goals, because they are both important.
Not Drinking the Kool-Aid,
I agree to some extent on Marvin. he was unsure of his role, and I dont think Woody did a good job developing/utilizing him.
That being said, a big part of the problem is on Marvin. What’s causing him to fumble and stumble so much? What’s causing him to miss open shots? Whats causing him to get his shots blocked by shorter players.
Hopefully, a new coach with a new offensive system and player accountability will have a positive effect on Marvin. I can understand giving Marvin one more season to see if he can turn it around. But dont be surprised if we are still having this discussion next offseason.
******************
Oh I understand it O’Brien. I also understand that the two players that turned into stars for us ( JJ and Smoove ), Woody gets absolutely no credit for their development. Add Horford to that list as well. But people want to focus on the scrubs who didn’t develop ( and didn’t develop under anybody else either ), as proof that he doesn’t develop players.
Teague’s non-development was an easy call. The dude couldn’t shoot nor finish in traffic,and you had 2 veteran guards that you could play in front of him at the point. He could’ve played the dude more. No doubt on that. But with Teague’s obvious deficiencies as a player right now, it may have been to the detriment to the team. So it’s easy for a coach to play it safe, and play the 2 vet guards.
As for Marvin, the excuses need to stop for him as well. If he made some damn open shots, he would’ve gotten more opportunities. JJ’s assists dropping down below 5 was a direct result of Marvin and Bibby not making shots when he passed them the ball. But mainly Marvin.
It’s like Rod says about Marvin . . the dude is wide open on most plays in which teams go to double JJ. When he gets open looks, he HAS to knock them down. If he misses, he’s not going to get the ball.
People talk about ball movement. But what good is ball movement, if guys can’t do basic things to score the basketball? The purpose of ball movement is to get the best possible shot, whether that’s a lay-up or a wide open jumper. If guys get the ball in scoring position . . . score the basketball.
It’s like you said. We can install a new offensive system in here. But it still means that these players need to make wide open shots and make lay-ups ( sometimes tough lay-ups ). We’ll see what happens next year with the new “system”. A new “system” was supposed to help Philadelphia’s offensive woes too ( Eddie Jordan’s “Princeton Offense” ). Philly’s offense was slightly worse this year, than it was last year.
So much for the “system”. How about players making some shots?
Grandad
June 2nd, 2010
10:25 pm
tyger:
Randolph Morris avg. a triple double @ a single A school
qualifies him for what?
I’ve nothing against R.M. but single A HS stats have no meaning.
Before you get angry – I actually think the young man has
some potential offensivly.
rusty
June 2nd, 2010
10:31 pm
northcyde
your posts ramble on & don make much sense. all year long you knock jc & claim how great jj is. jc played much better than your hero jj did. he choked & plaed like crap. his iso play wil never make this team play like it should which is better ball movement & an up tempo play. you knocked teague all season & praised bibby. teague never had a chance to show what he could do. everybody knows that he is super fast,can stay in front of the fastest guards in the nba & can penerate. we have to completely take the ball out of jj hands as we dribbles way to much & forces bad shots. as for our defense who knows what hell we can do or not do based on woodys stupid switching defense. i know that our bench was not strong but we also dont have any idea on anyone as woody stupidly refused to play anyone. i was always suprised at the huge minutes he gaved to mb & mw.often he gave mw more minutes than he gave to js. we need to get rid of mw,mb & moe. we need to get rid of
jj as this team will always be playing iso joe. this is the only way joe can be effective. he certainly is not worth the huge salery he is demanding
Grandad
June 2nd, 2010
10:49 pm
cdog – I was joshin’ about the video.
*However, when my book comes out I’ll give you a copy for free.
**Serious**
“then had a chance to get stackhouse but let orlando get him”
*I thought ‘Stack’ went to the “Deer”.
“HE WAS MORE CONCERN WITH SAVING MONEY”
*Perhaps ownership has him on a tight budget?
“if you made a tape.no one would learn any thing from yours.
the way you judge basketball now supports that.”
*You might be surprised.
“you have to know the game”
*I challenge you to a game of “basketball chess”. >Your move.
“and be real about it.not see things blindly
because of personal feelings.”
*That puzzles me most of all.
**I look at B-ball from a logical point of view.
***I’m a Hawks fan…beyond that I’m a pragmatist.
Remember – I’m with you on Avery.
Rick Sund
June 2nd, 2010
10:59 pm
Expect a coaching hire in about 2 months.
We are still separating the “emotional” from the “analytical.” Despite my statements that the Magic blowouts didn’t matter because so many other teams got blown out in the playoffs, we are still suffering from this blowout series. I know, that as myself, a TRUE COMPETITOR, this series really stung.
Rick
P.S. I am REALLY leaning towards getting Casey. He is CLEARLY more experienced than Avery and knows more about the game than Mark Jackson, even though MJ is 2nd all time in Assists
Grandad
June 2nd, 2010
11:05 pm
northcyde:
I know I pick @ you alot but the ball movement query above
got my attn. It’s not just ball mov. but player mov. as well.
It displaces the defense. Also it forces the defense to
play both sides of the floor. Another item is players being
able to catch & shoot in rhythm.
I agree players need to make shots but a coach needs to put
each player in the best position to be successful, along with
designing plays that address that objective.
darrell starks
June 2nd, 2010
11:08 pm
Hawks should go after monta ellis the guy have left cali. 2 come live in the south where he is from, yesterday i posted zaza, marvin, for monta i say the trade work for both team we need a point and warriors need a new make over.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
June 2nd, 2010
11:12 pm
Bring joe back and chill with the additional of monta you can have a nice starting five, Avery is a players coach he can get chill 2 come back 2 the hawks.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!
cdog
June 2nd, 2010
11:13 pm
GRANDDAD, MY BAD,I GET THOSE NORTH CAROLINA GUYS MIXED UP. WHATS THE NORTH CAROLINA GUY NAME WITH THE MAJIC? HE WAS A TARGET OF THE HAWKS BEFORE THE SEASON.I APOLOGIZE. I WASN’T ANGRY, JUST FUNNING MY BROTHER
darrell starks
June 2nd, 2010
11:18 pm
SIGN FREE AGENT AL HARRINGTON AND PICK 24# SOLOMON ALABI.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!
Grandad
June 2nd, 2010
11:26 pm
Sautee:
NO if I were Memphis I would NOT let him go.
Which is why I knew that the trade machine would not allow
me to offer enough to tempt them. Needing (percieved)[?]
a point guard & some front ct. help [Z.Rand] sit. My thinking
was offer enough of our chips + draft picks to entice a stolen
gem. Heck, their under the cap with money – LR Ark. is close
maybe even a S&T for Joe.
OJ would go a long way toward gluing our future.
Giving up Teague: [last resort]
Ray felton (UFA) Kyle Lowry (RFA)
I know all this is in our minds but it’s my hobby.
Quite a shame I can’t play golf @ least for the time being.
That and I love the game !
darrell starks
June 2nd, 2010
11:26 pm
MUCH IMPROVE HAWKS WITH MORE EXCITEMENT.
STARTER MONTA, JOE, CHILL, JOSH, HORFORD,
BENCH TEAGUE, JAMAL, MOE, HARRINGTON, ALABI,
RESERVE BIBBY, MORRIS
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!
Grandad
June 2nd, 2010
11:29 pm
“That and I love the game !” *Basketball*
Grandad
June 2nd, 2010
11:37 pm
cdog – Heck man were fine.
Why the apology…I had fun with our correspondence.
*Seriously, you get a free copy.
**I’m slow, the project is gonna take awhile.
***I’ve got alot of irons in the fire.
Ramon
June 2nd, 2010
11:39 pm
Grandad, I don’t know if its Mayo or Gasol, but I think one of those two Grizzlies should be a Hawk next season. And I think the Hawks have enough piece to make it happen without giving up the entire farm.
Ramon
June 2nd, 2010
11:50 pm
Here’s a new name for you Grandad that I wonder what the price for him in a trade would be, Mbah a Moute from Milwaukee. He’d be a great defensive option off of the bench for the Hawks as well, if he was available.
Grandad
June 2nd, 2010
11:57 pm
Ramon:
I don’t know if we can touch either.
But Gasol is untouchable.
He is like Al is to us.
I don’t blame them.
Talented Bigs don’t fall out of the sky.
*Thabeet? maybe?
Hollins on Gasol:
“Hardest worker on the team”
Mayo is probably close to being in the same boat.
They need to [and will] re-sign Rudy Gay.
It’s funny how that trade was panned (older brother)
but it’s actually worked out for Memphis.
It would be a heist, but Mayo
would be just the ticket for us.
Ramon
June 3rd, 2010
12:05 am
I’d be willing to offer Crawford, and next year’s 1st rd pick for Mayo and Thabeet. if it worked under the cap.
Ken Strickland
June 3rd, 2010
12:09 am
NAJEH-When Marvin scored 14.8PPG he was the teams 3rd scoring option. This yr, he became the teams 5th scoring option among the starters. The reasons he regressed this yr were:
(1) the addition of JCrawford limited his scoring opportunities,
(2) the emergence of AHorford as a scoring option also limited his scoring opportunities,
(3) he obviously lost confidence in his jump shot and withdrew,
(4) with JJ and Crawford doing so many ISO’s he and his teammates did a lot of clearing out and standing around and were shut out,
(5) unlike JJ, Crawford and Bibby, Marvin always attempted to maintain ball movement and never sought to disrupt the OFF to go ISO,
(6) he is by nature a none aggressive player, and was content to coast or disappear on OFF, which was obviously acceptable to Woodson.
He averaged his 6.3RPG before Woodson made the switching DEF his bread and butter.
Marvin could be a consistent 15-16PPG scorer if we brought him off picks for open jumpers, and as a spot up jumpshooter with a penetrating PG that can draw and kick. Hell, why make an issue of Marvins dribbling and driving difficulties, when we’ve all seen JJ and Crawford struggle with ISO’s and one on one, even with their excellent penetrating and ball handling skills.
Grandad
June 3rd, 2010
12:15 am
Ramon:
He [Mbah a Moute] is not as tall as listed but plays bigger
than he really is. I have a story about him that I wish I could
tell. Not a bad story – great kid – Ben Howland is the best.
He’s a winner. Maybe Marvin for him and an expiring contract?
I’ll check it out. Once again great kid, I have some personal
knowledge of him and his background. Will guard the everlovin’
piss oughta’ you.
Ramon
June 3rd, 2010
12:17 am
Grandad, he just seems like a winner who has no quit in him. I wouldn’t offer Marvin for him, but would offer Zaza.
Najeh Davenpoop
June 3rd, 2010
12:18 am
Darrell, if you had a 25 ppg scorer on your team, would you trade him for Marvin and Zaza? Just wondering…
Grandad
June 3rd, 2010
12:22 am
Co-sign Ken S. + Ive been saying all along;
Marv’s not a slsher.
Grandad
June 3rd, 2010
12:29 am
Ramon – You have to understand – the other team values him.
He was a starter for the Deer. To get value one must offer
something of value in return.
*Exception – A team is trying to unload a player [Jamal].
Bucks aren’t looking to rid themselves of Luc R M a M.
Ramon
June 3rd, 2010
12:37 am
Grandad, I understand. But with the Bucks in jeopardy of losing Kurt Thomas, I think they would find value in Zaza as well. And at the moment I think Zaza’s value on the market may be higher than Marvin’s because his contract is less.
darrell starks
June 3rd, 2010
1:13 am
Najeh warroirs have the six pick in this year draft adding zaza and marvin plus the 6# pick will make this team deeper, and not only that curry and ellis do not coexist on the court there have been 2 many struggles between the 2 player playing basically the same position, it would make only sense for them 2 trade ellis because of the team lack of progress and inconsistency on the court.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!
Clyde
June 3rd, 2010
1:26 am
We need Sean Williams. Horford has proven he can’t get the job done.
darrell starks
June 3rd, 2010
1:26 am
WARRIORS DRAFT WESLEY JOHNSON WHO IN MY OPINION THE BEST PLAYER IN THE DRAFT BEHIND WALLS.
STARTER CURRY, WESLEY, MARVIN, RANDOLPH, BIEDRINS
BENCH CJ, MORROW, MAGGETTE, WRIGHT, ZAZA
RESERVE KELENNA, TURIAF
GO HAWKS!!!!!!
Grandad
June 3rd, 2010
1:55 am
Ramon you will like this one.
Last post of the eve for me.
My new project.
@ # 24 Hawks select:
Art parakhouski…6-11, 270…*7-1 w-span
*(not particularly impressive)
Hand length 9.5, hand width 10.5 (impressive)
only 6% body fat (exceptional)
Radford Univ. (not the girls school)
21 pts., 13 rebs., 59% fg, 2 blocks
from – Minsk, Belarus – wherever the heck that is.
I watched him @ the combine & I’m ashamed that I had
never heard of the young man. I listened to his interview
@ DraftExpress and he was an impressive young man.
Much more athletic than Zaza. Nice release on his mid-range
jumper. Plenty of bulk to bang with DH. This is a good omen;
he grew up as a swimmer and played soccer for 7 years. [footwork]
Alot to like. Yet…Pedergraph (still not a typo) can’t find
any players @ 24. Pedergraph – where amazing happens !
Najeh Davenpoop
June 3rd, 2010
2:39 am
“Art Parakhouski” sounds like someone who is more likely to win the Nobel Prize in Literature than the NBA Finals.
Najeh Davenpoop
June 3rd, 2010
2:44 am
Darrell, your contention that Curry and Ellis can’t coexist is fine, but that doesn’t mean they would accept Marvin and Zaza in return. You still haven’t answered my question. Would you, as the Warriors GM, trade Monta Ellis for Marvin and Zaza? Do you think that would make your team better if you were running that team?
northcyde
June 3rd, 2010
2:48 am
rusty
June 2nd, 2010
10:31 pm
northcyde
your posts ramble on & don make much sense. all year long you knock jc & claim how great jj is. jc played much better than your hero jj did. he choked & plaed like crap. his iso play wil never make this team play like it should which is better ball movement & an up tempo play. you knocked teague all season & praised bibby. teague never had a chance to show what he could do. everybody knows that he is super fast,can stay in front of the fastest guards in the nba & can penerate. we have to completely take the ball out of jj hands as we dribbles way to much & forces bad shots. as for our defense who knows what hell we can do or not do based on woodys stupid switching defense. i know that our bench was not strong but we also dont have any idea on anyone as woody stupidly refused to play anyone. i was always suprised at the huge minutes he gaved to mb & mw.often he gave mw more minutes than he gave to js. we need to get rid of mw,mb & moe. we need to get rid of jj as this team will always be playing iso joe. this is the only way joe can be effective. he certainly is not worth the huge salery he is demanding
*************************************
Rusty, don’t tell lies on me son. I gave Crawford his props all year. I just didn’t like when he’d keep jacking up bad shots when he was ice cold.
I don’t know what Hawks team you were watching, but JJ AND CRAWFORD played horrible in the playoffs. Crawford actually shot a lower percentage from the field ( 37% ) in the playoffs than JJ ( 39% ), so I don’t know what playoffs YOU were watching. They both sold us out.
LOL @ me praising Bibby. Bibby played well in November, and steadily got worse as the year wore on. But when Teague got into the game on most nights ( when the game was still in the balance ), he sucked too. I just didn’t cover up for the kid like most other people did. I did it for Acie, and got burned. I’m not going to make the same mistake, and do it for Teague.
LOL @ touting Teague’s man defense, when he couldn’t even stop JJ Redick from penetrating one time in the Orlando series. He’s fast and athletic. But right now, those are his best assets. People that have faith in Teague don’t even address what he can do skill wise on a basketball court. They just talk about his speed and athleticism.
Woody didn’t play the bench, because our bench ( for the most part ) SUCKED. Crawford was our “bench” . . period. The two guys he needed the most to go along with Crawford ( Evans and Zaza ), played sorry for most of the year. But mean ol Woody caused them to miss open jumpers and lay-ups all year . . . and didn’t play them as much . . . and opted to go with the guys who could get it done . . . awww.
If JJ leaves this team, and Crawford becomes the defacto go-to-guy for the Hawks, it will be straight up Armageddon for this franchise.
82games.com has it’s 2009 – 10 sortable CLUTCH PER 48 MIN stats out. Here are the Hawks clutch shooting percentages: ( last 5 minutes of 4th quarter and OT . . no more than 5 points up or down )
JJ shot 46.3% eFG and 44% 3FG in the clutch
Jamal shot 24.6% eFG and 12% 3FG in the clutch
So if that’s the dude you want taking shots for the Hawks at the end of most games, then we’ll quickly fall off the map. We better give all of those shots to Horford, if we lose JJ.
Be gone Rusty.
Najeh Davenpoop
June 3rd, 2010
2:53 am
Ken, I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying necessarily, but you can’t blame his big time regression in 3-point percentage and mediocre man-to-man defense on Woody, can you?
I’m not letting Woody and the circumstances off the hook when it comes to Marvin’s failures, but I feel like you are letting Marvin off the hook to an extent. Spot-up 3-point shooting in an isolation offense and man-to-man defense are not things that need to be coached or things that are dependent on the circumstances. All that requires is for Marvin to make a commitment to become good at those things.
I would honestly be OK with Marvin averaging 10 points and 5 boards a game if he became a lock down defender and knocked down 40% of his 3’s. But he’s been in the league for 5 years now, and regardless of who his coach or teammates are, he has to find a way to be good at something. It’s kind of the same argument northcyde (wrongly) makes with Teague — Marvin has to make an impact on the game somehow, and there are ways to do that which are independent of the surroundings.
JoJo the Godfather
June 3rd, 2010
6:39 am
Najeh….”Sure. Udonis Haslem. Glen Davis. DeJuan Blair. Leon Powe. Tyler Hansbrough. Taj Gibson. Drew Gooden”….you just named 5 guys under contract, a guy that will take at least the full MLE to sign in Haslem, and Gooden made $4.5M last year and had a good year (he’ll cost more than Bass as well). Plus, Bass’s playing time was directly related to Van Gundy’s desire to surround Dwight with 4 shooters.
“By the way, Gortat averages $6.5 million over the course of his contract, which runs for another 4 years. Along with Bass’ deal, that totals $10.5 million a year for two backup players, neither of whom has proven they can be a viable starter. In what universe is that a better investment than $11 million a year for a guy with Josh’s credentials?”….Josh avgs $12.4M over the next 3 years. So yes, I see value in having two spots covered for $2M less than your one spot over the next 3 years. Its called depth and cap management, plus I have Al Horford happy and developing in the PF spot, and I don’t have to see Josh cry and walk down the court everytime he doesn’t get a foul call.
“possibility of 10 points, 10 boards, and 2 blocks at center”….Only 3 centers in the league avgd 2 blocks a game, only 3 centers in the league avgd 10 rebs a game, 17 centers avgd 10 points a game. If you find a center that can give you all 3 while playing solid D, then you have something most teams would love to have. Al Horford was 4th in the league among rebounding centers and he’s never had a year as good as Gortat’s worst year (based on rebounding rate per 40 minutes).
I also see that you dropped the argument on stats when they proved exactly what ZaZa was capable of. If given 30 minutes a game, he’ll give you 12 pts and 7 or 8 rebs, but can you stand his defense.
JoJo the Godfather
June 3rd, 2010
6:43 am
(another thought) you have to consider the sample size because it didn’t happen a lot, but….the Hawks best point differential came when ZaZa was playing the 5 and Horford was playing the 4….Just another reason why I want to see Horford at the 4 more. ZaZa should remain our backup 5.
O'Brien
June 3rd, 2010
7:53 am
@ Najeh,
How does the Umpire miss that call when the play didn’t even seem that close? That’s crazy.
@ Northcyde,
We don’t agree on many things, but we agree on Marvin.
@ JoJo the Godfather,
Josh Smith is 24, with more room to grow, especially under a new coach. We know what Brandon Bass and Gortat are; Solid backups who could be decent starters. I need more than that if I’m going to trade Josh. especially to a division rival.
jgsbrids
June 3rd, 2010
8:13 am
amare without nash is useless!!!!!!!
JoJo the Godfather
June 3rd, 2010
8:23 am
O’Brien…you’re probably right, but Bass is 25 and Gortat is 26. Gortat has been stuck behind Dwight for 3 years and has never been given more than 13 min/game on avg a year. you can’t assume he won’t get better with playing time. also, if its not even, ask for Fran Vazquez and/or the 29th pick in the draft. if its as lopsided a trade as some think, then orlando will gladly comply. Vazquez won’t come over to play behind Dwight. The guy’s a skilled center who does a nice job running the pick and roll with Rubio. I’d be happy if we could just get our hands on him in exchange for a draft pick, and then convince him to come play for us.
lewis
June 3rd, 2010
8:54 am
Many great comments.
The Hawks looked a lot tougher in the paint with Zaza at 5 and Al at 4.
My personal belief is that you need a PF with A.Horford’s size. quickness, jumpshot and free throw shooting ability to compete with the elite PF’s:
P.Gasol, K.Garnett, T. Duncan, L. Aldridge, C. Bosh, A. Stoudemire, Z. Randolph
You’re honestly going to tell me you think J.Smith can cover these guys without getting into foul trouble? He’s a phenomenal help defender but he doesn’t have the size or seeming will to cover these guys one on one around the paint.
I love J.Smith, he’s an impact player who does it on both sides of the court. I love A.Horford even more because he clearly wants to win, puts in great efforts night in and night out, and is fundamentally sound. So, answer me this: How are we supposed to keep Al (one of the few reasons people watch the hawks) when he clearly wants to be a PF?
The whole center argument boils down not necessarily to our front line being too small to win a championship, but that that Al has publicly stated he wants to play PF. Is the goal here to find a real center, or to figure out a way to keep Al on the squad?
lewis
June 3rd, 2010
8:56 am
add odom to that list
lewis
June 3rd, 2010
9:01 am
Josh and Al need to get together, throw ego’s aside, and make a decision as to whether they’ll be able to play on the same team for years to come or not. Starting 2 pf’s is great for the regular season but it just doesn’t cut it in the playoffs.
Ramon
June 3rd, 2010
9:58 am
Grandad, I like that he’s an athlete beyond the basketball court. That goes a long way towards conditioning. And we know swimmers (and cyclists) are always in the best shape.
Lewis, you asked can Josh guard opposing PF without getting into foul trouble? And then you manage to say you think Zaza and Al did better than Al and Josh? Somehow Al and Josh averaged the same amount of fouls this season and for their careers. If you look closely at the game footage, you will see majority of the fouls for BOTH came from them providing help defense when someone on the perimeter allowed their assignment to penetrate the lane. With the exception of Duncan and Lewis (who had advantage of Howard) what PF have you seen just simply use Josh? The answer is none! Its funny you mentioned Bosh’s name, because I remember Josh holding Bosh under 15 points a couple times this season. You mentioned KG, but I remember even in the playoffs 3 years ago Josh neutralized KG’s effect, and that was the biggest reason the Hawks went to game 7.
Speaking of Boston, its funny Al and Josh didn’t have any problems with Boston’s front line this season or previously in the playoffs. Yet you say they need another center to start on the lineup? So tell me, what center can the Hawks acquire who is a better center than Al Horford? Because the last I remember Horford was only one of 4 centers selected to the All Star game, and neither of the other three are available. And Josh was named the best defensive power forward in the league (2nd in DPOY).