Atlanta Hawks: Attention on centers
Can Haywood really be had for the mid-level?
The Hawks say they are looking to free agency instead of the draft for frontcourt help. At this point it’s not clear if that need supersedes their desire for a starting-caliber point guard (in case the Jeff Teague thing doesn’t yield immediate fruits) or wing player (in case J.J. bolts in free agency). This is especially the case since the returning frontcourt (Al, Josh, and Zaza) might be a stronger group than the returning backcourt (Bibby, Jamal, Marvin and Teague).
But since the draft doesn’t look like it will yield a big man who can contribute now at pick No. 24, and Jason Collins and Randolph Morris both are free agents, the Hawks will need a center one way or the other. Let’s assume they won’t go the vet-minimum route this time and will actually use their mid-level exception to seek a starting-caliber center (neither assumption is safe, but let’s just say both are plausible). What kind of center could the Hawks expect to acquire in free agency this summer?
First, let me say that trying to predict the market for free agents this summer is tricky. With so many teams potentially having so much cap space (and presumably a desire to spend the money) so-so players might find a strong market for their services. Add in the fact that the focus here is free-agent centers in a league where “quality big man” is usually near the top of the list of wants for most teams in the league, and it makes things even more unpredictable.
(To illustrate that point, see this quote from Magic GM Otis Smith explaining why he used the full mid-level exception last year to re-sign Marcin Gortat, a backup center of modest accomplishment: “Like I said before, we’re in a league that probably only has 10 centers. We just happen to have two. It’s a luxury.”)
But we can look at what happened with free agent centers in years past to get some kind of feel for what the market might dictate. Then I’ll look at some of the free-agent centers for a clue as to what the Hawks might reasonably find available for the mid-level exception.
In 2008, centers Emeka Okafor and Andrew Bogut got the big money, with each signing five-year deals averaging $12 million . Bogut signed an extension before the final year of his rookie contract. The Bobcats signed Okafor to the deal after it had extended a one-year qualifying offer for $7.1 million and after DeSagna Diop turned down their contract starting at the mid-level.
Diop signed a comparable deal with Dallas, so he is the kind of center the full mid-level got you in 2008. But the market was different back then. There were only four or five teams with enough salary-cap space to add players with significant salaries, compared with eight or nine that could do so this summer. So if a salary starting at $5.6 million got you Diop back then, a salary starting at $5.73 million (Larry Coon’s estimate for the mid-level in 2010-11) may not get you even that much now.
Last summer the Cavs signed Anderson Varejao to a deal worth a bit more than the mid-level with five years guaranteed. The Magic matched the offer sheet Gortat signed with Dallas for the full mid-level. And Boston added Rasheed Wallace using their full mid-level exception (yeah, I know, ‘Sheed ain’t exactly a banger in the post but he’s savvy enough to play center as he showed against Dwight Howard). Once again the market was different in 2009, with not so many teams with significant cap space, but it’s a starting point.
That gives us a list of free-agent, mid-level centers (or in Varejao’s case, near it) over the last two years that includes Diop, Varejao, Gortat and Wallace. Looking at how they compared statistically in 2009-10, it seems the Celtics overpayed for ‘Sheed, but then again what they really paid for is what he’s doing now in the playoffs.
So with those four players as the baseline, which 2010 NBA free-agent centers compare as far as their production while also taking their age into account? After crunching the numbers and considering the market, my (subjective) list includes Brendan Haywood, Shaquille O’Neal, Joel Przybilla, Brad Miller and Darko Milicic. Now, like I said, perhaps interest from with salary-cap space drives up the price of these players, or maybe teams they aren’t even worth the full mid-level at this point, but I’m putting them out there for comparison and discussion (hey, it’s June 1 and things are quiet).
The best (realistic) option among the group might be Haywood, who made $6 million this season. He will be 31 in November, which makes him about three years older than Varejao was when he got his deal from Cleveland. So even if he finds his market value inflated he may not be able to attract more than the mid-level, particularly if he wants three years or more.
Haywood and Varejao have remarkably similar statistical profiles. Haywood has a comparable player efficiency rating, rebounding percentage, true shooting percentage and is a better shot-blocker. Varejao is a more effective passer and gets more steals.
Haywood is better than Diop, who turns 29 next January (though he should have plenty of tread left with an average of 14.3 minutes in 536 games). Przybilla (who has a $7.4 million player option for 2009-10) turns 31 before next season; he had a good year in 2008-09 but wasn’t productive during an injury-marred season in 2009-10.
Miller, 34, fell off this season. Shaq actually had a pretty efficient year but age, injury and motivation are concerns so his days of big money are over. Darko ($7.5 million) is still only 24-years old if you can believe that but he’s still mostly about size and potential and isn’t really a willing defender or rebounder.
Haywood, by the way, said he wants to re-sign with the Mavericks. Apparently, watching old and injured Erick Dampier start over him didn’t sour him on his experience in Dallas. The Mavs, who hold Haywood’s Bird Rights, apparently are high on him. Coach Rick Carlisle to NBA.com:
“It’s very important to get Haywood re-signed. I really liked what he did for us. He’s a guy that had an impact on both ends. At 30 years old, he’s relatively young for a center. Centers tend to play for a very long time…Brendan is very athletic. He’s got a good feel for the game. He’s got a good knowledge of the game.”
Some other potential free-agent centers who likely won’t get the full mid-level if they hit the market: Channing Frye ($2.08 million player option for 2010-11), Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Nenad Krstic ($5.4 million player option for 2010-11), Chris Wilcox ($3 million player option for 2010-11), Ben Wallace, and Theo Ratliff.
A full list of free agents by position is available at Hoopsworld.com.
– All appears calm on the coaching search front with ASG’s Michael Gearon Jr. away on business until next week. Mark Jackson interviewed over the weekend but he still looks to be a long shot due to his lack of coaching experience.
MC
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397 comments Add your comment
Big Ray
June 2nd, 2010
4:15 pm
Northcyde ,
Since when is speculating on what Sund could have done “facts?” Every time I’ve done it with Billy Knight, it was called “speculation.” Maybe it’s just different for some folks.
If Woody didn’t have the job security, then imagine how Oklahoma City Thunder head coach Scotty Brooks feels. He won Coach of the Year. His reward? A two-year extension, same as Woody got. I wonder if the fans in Oklahoma City are going to use that as a built in excuse if Brooks begins making mistakes? Here’s a fact- only the very best and most tenured in the business consistently do better. Even then….
We did have a great regular season. We had a mostly crappy postseason. Celebrate one, lament the other. Or pick which one you want to be in denial about (ain’t blogging great).
Hate it or love it, what Sund did had a hand in that great regular season and crappy postseason. He gets as much credit or discredit as Woody did. I really think he hasn’t been around the Hawks long enough to be judged one way or the other just yet. But this summer will change much of that. GMs always like to build things their own way despite what they say publicly. Hell, I wasn’t sure he’d keep Woody around when he first arrived, but he did. Now he gets to start over from the coaching standpoint and if Joe leaves, he will have no choice but to retool this team his own way. Joe is part of Knight’s legacy, not Sund’s. We shall see.
Grandad
June 2nd, 2010
4:19 pm
cdog:
Phil. is the only one to ‘ahem’ fill their HC pos.
Why is Mr. Sund the only one taking so long?
The others, sans Cleve. were vacant *before* the Hawks.
How big is that dad-gum ax your grindin’ on ol’ Rick.
Big Ray
June 2nd, 2010
4:19 pm
Time to rebuild/Truth Serum
I don’t hate Woody, and he’s gone so why keep picking on him. But I have a question. Who has been interviewing Woody for coaching job vacancies? I haven’t heard a word, but I figured you would have by now. Oh, and Philly is out, they hired Doug Collins. Who else is after Woody? No wait, I know what it is. Those other coaches that conspired to put Al Horford on the All-star team are all conspiring to keep Woody out of a head coaching job. That has to be it!
Big Ray
June 2nd, 2010
4:24 pm
cdog
I think if Sund wanted to bring in an old buddy, he would have no problems doing it already. As Grandad has already said, only one NBA team has filled their head coach vacancy so far. The others are still not finished, so I guess they are all just as stupid as Sund.
Why are you so sold on Avery Johnson? Just curious. Uh, but would it matter if he brought in Avery? Would not Sund still be the boss? By the way, the day Sund gives a gigantic contract to a selfish player who doesn’t make his teammates better and flashes guns in the locker room is the day Sund can make this team like the Wizards. Until then….
Grandad
June 2nd, 2010
4:29 pm
((( Well said Big Ray )))
I think I was speakin’ [writing / typing] *Portuguese
last nite when I was conversing with ‘nc’.
He didn’t seem to understand my point.
(please vava – don’t take exception – it’s my catch phrase)
*I love all Portuguese – especially their beautiful women.
Not Drinking the Kool - Aid
June 2nd, 2010
4:32 pm
Big Ray, O’Brien, Ramon, and Najeh,
You all know how I feel about Marvin. I don’t think you can judge Marvin based on the offense that Woody ran. Marvin did not draft himself nor did he give himself a contract. The Hawks drafted Marvin too high and resigned him at his current contract. I attended or watched about 95% of the games this season. I really felt, at times, the entire team on the court did not know exactly what they were doing. A young player has to be trained to become a better player, thus coaching, thus given a role on the team. Woody’s bird brained schemes, with covering for Bibby by switching, and iso-Joe for most of the shot clock messed up the chemistry of this team. How many of you can hit a jump shot with 1 or 2 seconds on the clock at crunch time when you need a basket as opposed to running in a free flow offense shooting a jumper in rhythm coming off of a screen or from a pass out of the post. It is very difficult for anyone including Marvin. I make no bones that Marvin was drafted too high and is currently over-paid but let’s at least see if a new coach running a real offensive and defensive NBA pro style scheme can get more out of these guys, especially Marvin. Also did you think that maybe Rick Sund was trying to accomodate the wishes of his coach in resigning Marvin, Bibby, Zsa Zsa, and bringing in J. Crawford? I am not blaming or excusing Sund just need to see more of his work to make a call on him. I again state the Hawks are best as a running team, they need an athletic, banging, running, shot – blocking big man maybe draft Dexter Pittman or bring in a young big man like Johan Petro or Ian Mahnimini. The Hawks abused the Celtics by running them off the court. The next coach should run, run and run some more. I also think the Hawks want to bring Josh Childress back because Josh C. is not a great offensive player but a defensive and hustle player with basketball smarts. Perfect in Marvin’s spot where you don’t need a play ran for you. Just one man’s opinion!
Fundamentals
June 2nd, 2010
4:35 pm
Woodson must be as sorry as Brown from Cleveland? No one has hired a coach? Recently fired ones aren’t even really in the mix. Too soon. I’m not sold Avery is the one for us. I liked Byron Scott or Sam Mitchell if we’re going with an established coach.
I still say Ty Corbin would be a great look.
Not sold on Jackson, but I’d accept him.
Drew or Casey would also be acceptable to me.
Whatever happens, fans and players must embrace the new coach and new system or we’re hopeless!
Fundamentals
June 2nd, 2010
4:40 pm
Kool Aid Man,
I agree on your comments about Marvin & Chemistry. We need a solid philosophy and offensive set before we decide on Marvin’s value. We’ve got a number of awesome pieces that need some serious work and evaluation this summer. Their work this summer will decide whether they fit into our system by Feb. I’d like to see us draft the best player available and fill our roster with young, hungry players. There are not free agent gems to be had. We’re really just kidding ourselves.
If the pieces we have with or without Joe work hard, we can still make some noise. A few key signings and we’ll be right back in the mix. It’s all about philosophy, work ethic and chemistry. All things you can’t buy, but you can buy into them!
t-height
June 2nd, 2010
4:46 pm
I don’t consider Frye, Wilcox, and Kritic as centers and Theo is a no no as well. Shaq or Ben Wallace would be great pick ups if they would come here to Atlanta in an Avery Johnson system. The hawks don’t need a center to score, they need a defensive or big bodied center who can rebound.
Fundamentals
June 2nd, 2010
4:54 pm
Shaq and Ben are too old and destructive to chemistry. Frye is a good shooter – good SF/PF but not C. Wilcox is a problem, Kristic I’m not buying.
We do need a solid defensive, big bodied rebounding center, but Shaq or Wallace are not it. I’d rather risk time with Siler.
ATLborn
June 2nd, 2010
5:07 pm
Tyson Chandler has a player option this year. If he opts out we should go after him. He’s a tall body that defends very well in the paint.
Grandad
June 2nd, 2010
5:16 pm
Not Drinking the Kool – Aid & Fundamentals:
1st of all – NDtK-A – I absolutely agree about Marv
& have said so on this board, we shall be castigated
for our efforts. I could care less.
I have said on more than one occasion Marv is “NOT”
a [3] but a stretch [4] or a high post [5] even.
He should be in the [a] rotation with J & A. Also his
lower body strength + length & lack of agility lends itself
to defending [4's] & [5's]. Our young *trio would have been
well suited for the triangle. *(J + A + Marv)
However, having said all that…look for him to be traded.
If one were certain he would flourish under a new regime
then allowing him to re-eatablish trade value would be
the best for all.
Fundamentals – though I rarely disagree with your positions,
I must on this (1) issue.
“There are *not* free agent gems to be had.” [asterisk added]
W/O listing them all…there are some nice ones for the picking:
Two for right now;
* Amir Johnson – un-restricted
* Kyle Lowry – restricted
I’ll make cases for both & others later.
O'Brien
June 2nd, 2010
5:18 pm
Ray,
Northcyde fails to acknowledge that a part of Woody’s job description is player development. And it doesnt matter what industry you work in. You have to find the balance between short term goals and long term goals, because they are both important.
Not Drinking the Kool-Aid,
I agree to some extent on Marvin. he was unsure of his role, and I dont think Woody did a good job developing/utilizing him.
That being said, a big part of the problem is on Marvin. What’s causing him to fumble and stumble so much? What’s causing him to miss open shots? Whats causing him to get his shots blocked by shorter players.
Hopefully, a new coach with a new offensive system and player accountability will have a positive effect on Marvin. I can understand giving Marvin one more season to see if he can turn it around. But dont be surprised if we are still having this discussion next offseason.
Sautee
June 2nd, 2010
5:25 pm
Truth-serum,
I’d have to say that the Head Coaches of the league, who named Al Horford an All-Star certainly thought his defense was acceptable. Heh heh.
But maybe you know more than THEY do? Tell me, T-s, do you REALLY think the coaches are that out of touch? Can you explain that conspiracy theory one more time?
On another note, I’m still wondering how Dwight Howard’s league leading blocked shots didn’t make Orlando the Champs?
I also noticed that you never responded to my post weeks ago about the last two Champions. Boston in 08 had it’s starting frontcourt average 1.83 blocks per game for the Finals. LA in 09 had it’s frontcourt average 2.4 blocks per game. Both of these figures are less than Dwight Howard averages in a game alone.
And yet they were champs. Not the shot blocking Magic.
Maybe shot blocking is only a small part of Championship defense, eh?
Ramon
June 2nd, 2010
5:26 pm
I would be for signing Shaq for a 2 year $7-$8 million a year deal, even as much as $9 million. Shaq immediately causes ticket sales to go up by 10%. And you think JJ wouldn’t get the best open look shots that he’s gotten his entire career with Shaq? Shaq wasn’t the reason the Cavs lost. I’d be all for adding Shaq.
JoJo the Godfather
June 2nd, 2010
5:41 pm
Najeh…in regards to trade value, surely you don’t believe that a near all-star PF is of equal value to a near all-star PG or C. Those two positions carry way more value. Under your theory, you should be able to trade Josh for Russel Westbrook, Rajon Rondo, or Brook Lopez. That’s not going to happen. A near all-star PF will only get you potential or a has-been at PG & C.
with that being said, i don’t really want to trade josh for gortat & bass. i just proposed it for all those that say we need a true center at any cost. i want the hawks to continue to add athletic/versatile players. its a small-budget team’s best chance at competing. if we get lucky in the draft and/or teague turns out to be a star, we’ll be fine. bring joe & chill back and add from the draft and young/cheap free agents.
Matt the Brave
June 2nd, 2010
5:53 pm
Man I would love Shaq. If it were 3 years ago.
Najeh Davenpoop
June 2nd, 2010
5:54 pm
Thanks, blog, for eating my long-azz post.
sam'l
June 2nd, 2010
5:59 pm
The Hawks are about 1 good move away from being the winners we suspect they are……A dominant center. Any coach who can glue this team together, motivate, keep them from disintegrating mentally will be accepted.
How do teams get dominating centers?
Is it possible to trade up for a high draft pick? Everyone outiside of Joe, Al, Jamaal and Josh can go. (However, it is possible that when you ship out the Duck, he will suddenly blossom and continue to kill you)
Does Sund have any “friends” around the league willing to trade someone like Gasol or Garnett in a sweetheart deal? Or maybe a forced financial deal?
Does someone really like the city of cultural and intellectual attractions in Atlanta to demand a trade here?
Could we just make Bibby an assistant coach and convince him to leave the court in preparation for his new career?
I still don’t know what caused Bibby’s steep decline and Marvin’s disappearance. Has anyone in this 7th (?) largest media market in the country ever thought of asking them what happened? I mean, they’re still here! The problem didn’t just go away.
Don’t get me started. MC–turn your head…you’re exempt. But when you listen to Steve Holman (sp?),on the air, Ryan Cameron in the arena, the idiotic owner squabble you have to wonder at the intelligence level involved. (I was going to add Charles Barkley, but he sometimes will come out and tell the truth about a situation which makes him rare).
There is the lack of a coherent bond between this team, the media, and us….which leaves us in the dark and mostly flailing around for answers. .
Is Sund really keeping his options secret…I hope so….I hope he’s up every night pouring over every newspaper and blog in the country, listening to every Internet sports show looking for that malcontent who is healthy who wants desperately to get out of his situation. (Steve Jackson comes to mind).
Who is calling out Phil Jackson? That idiot who went into the stands to beat up a fan just made a series-saving play for the Lakers (grabbing a Kobe airball and shoveling it back in to keep Phoenix from going up). Ron Artest the disgraced gangsta of the NBA…now a bonafide hero and winner. Under the right influence. Phil Jackson, who now can concentrate on Kobe playing offense.
You know the Hawks probably could have gotten Artest somewhere along the way. Any team could have……but they wouldn’t have known what to do with him….
Najeh Davenpoop
June 2nd, 2010
6:02 pm
“Najeh…in regards to trade value, surely you don’t believe that a near all-star PF is of equal value to a near all-star PG or C.”
Maybe not, but a near all-star PF is of much closer value to a near all-star PG or C than he is to a backup C and a backup PF. (I’ll disregard for now that Rondo and Westbrook are farther up the PG rankings than Smoove is on the PF rankings.) Marcin Gortat has put up his entire career’s worth of stats against opposing teams’ backups. There is no guarantee that he would be good if he became a starter or played starters’ minutes; in fact, the history of the NBA is littered with bad contracts given to good backups who sucked as starters. I’m not opposed to acquiring a guy like that in exchange for correspondingly scrubby players and seeing what he’s got. But I am undeniably opposed to trading a near all-star PF, one of the league’s elite defenders, one of the league’s elite passers among big men, for a guy who is a lot closer to Jon Koncak at this point in his career than a legit contributor.
By the way, if PGs and Cs are by rule more valuable, are you saying the Magic wouldn’t trade Dwight Howard for LeBron James? After all, small forward is the most easily replaceable position in the league…
Valuing one position over another is OK to a point, but the line has to be drawn somewhere, beyond which you just pick the better player.
Grandad
June 2nd, 2010
6:07 pm
*Grandad’s Trade of the Day* |6/2/10| (edition)
Memphis gets:
* Jamal Crawford
* Jeff Teague
Hawks get:
O.J. Mayo
Hasheem Thabeet
Memphis motivation;
They need / want a point guard. They are not happy with
‘Conley’. Although, I’m not exactly sure why?
This is based on an “interview” I read, – ‘Lionel Hollins’.
Hawks motivation – OJ Mayo – ’nuff said.
Works on NBA trade machine:
With Thabeet or Conley, either one.
I tried to give Marv away but they don’t have filler.
They have Marko Jaric’s contract but trade machine didn’t
have it available. It also does not have a way to include
Childress in a S&T.
I think Jamal, Teague & Childress might get
Mayo & DeMarre Carroll but ins & outs of (CBA)
would have to be traversed.
Jody
June 2nd, 2010
6:10 pm
I do believe that the Celtics did some (not alot) of switching on defense against the Magic, yet they didn’t get outrebounded the way the Hawks did. The Hawks did not literally switch on every defensive possession they played this season. So, to blame the poor rebounding and overall interior defense on that is silly. The fact remains that the frontline is undersized and that has been a problem for this team the last three years in the playoffs, not to mention regular season. Hence, the Hawks are looking for a center(s). And they need quality, not just any old stiff.
Grandad
June 2nd, 2010
6:16 pm
If we gave up Teague, Immediately Ray Felton
jumps into FA conversation / Kyle Lowry as well.
Plus Sherron Collins jumps into draft conversations.
If Joe stays & we were to acquire Mayo then a two guard
back-court both with playmaking skills becomes an option.
Think (86 Celtics) DJ & Ainge.
Joe would have his *wingman*.
Grandad
June 2nd, 2010
6:19 pm
*G-dad’s T.o.t.D. – I forgot to say – BASH AWAY !
Jody
June 2nd, 2010
6:20 pm
http://www.hawksquawk.net/community/index.php/topic/347620-peachtree-hoops-its-come-to-this-another-links-post-al-horfords-wish-list/
So, if Al wants to move to power forward, do the Hawks just ignore his request? I don’t think that would be a good idea.
Sautee
June 2nd, 2010
6:22 pm
Grandad,
So who would play PG, Bibby?
Sorry, but if we give up Teague, we have to have Conley back. Or at LEAST Marcus Williams as a throw-in.
Additionally, I’d guess that Memphis would think that Mayo’s upside would trump Crawford’s present talent level. Also Mayo is 22 and Jamal 30.
Plus, you almost NEVER see a team trade a promising player on a rookie contract. It’s poor asset management.
Keep trying, though. We need distraction right now.
JoJo the Godfather
June 2nd, 2010
6:22 pm
Najeh…the answer to your dwight/lebron trade is that neither team does the trade. it hardly ever happens. teams don’t swap all stars. teams will not give you equal, proven value for josh smith. you can either take a payer near the end of his career, or you can take a couple of cheaper players with upside. again, i’m not saying you make this trade, but there is equal value in it. all 3 players are paid equal to their abilities. you can’t prove that gortat will not be a solid starter and you can’t prove that he will until he gets the opportunity. if he was a proven starter at center already, then he wouldn’t be available for trade. the only centers that i see available for trade that are currently starting are dampier, possibly bynum, chandler, krstic, jefferson, okafor, hawes & dalembert. all of these guys but 2 make over $10M next year. would you rather have one of them or a 26 yr old with solid per-minute stats and a reasonable contract for the next 4 years?
ryan
June 2nd, 2010
6:32 pm
I think the Hawks will try and push for a top free agent it won’t be LeBron even if there over the cap they are going to have a sign and trade. Two players the Hawks have there eye on is Amare Stoudamire and D. Wade. Josh Smith is the best player that the spirit group can put on the block in a sign and trade also if Josh Chidress comes back.
Time to rebuild
June 2nd, 2010
6:47 pm
TRUTH-SERUMS TRADE OF THE DAY….MIKE CON AND HAM AND BIG RAY FOR MARK BRADLEY OR JEFF SCHULTZ!
The Flash
June 2nd, 2010
6:48 pm
The Hawks biggest problem this off season is JJ. Why? Cause I don’t think anyone else is going to want him for big money, and I think that that puts the Hawks, aka Gearon, in a bind. How do you not resign if you can a guy who you started WWIII over and who delivered, even though it was not like you thought (anybody forget that JJ was going to be the answer at the point.
Reading the column about the salary cap issues that letting JJ go further complicates matters, although I do not think that any team out there will pay him no 15 big ones like the Hawks have been to occupy the ball the way this dude needs to.
So, Gearon can try to keep JJ but bust his salary down to real value, but how does that work? The guy has an All Star year and you cut his salary and expect that he will not be poison out there and in the locker room.
Nope. I think that Gearon has to keep paying JJ, which means that this team will have no half-court offense worth talking about, which you need if you want to be taken seriously during serious times. So, things have come full circle for Gearon. He got what he wanted with that phony crisis over JJ’s acquisition by insisting that he had to pay way too much (the picks, my friends, the picks), and now is stuck with continuing to pay way too much to keep a guy I have to believe he’d love to get rid of but might not be able to.
In the meantime, while you guys are winning games, you’re gettin no love because there is something that is lacking in this franchise. It lacks character, style, a quality that can and does only come from the top. Here, the top is what it is, and youz guys who were around back in the day don’t need me to remind you what I think that is. If I am right yet again, and I think I might well be, you’ll be reminded often enough without me needing to say another word.
A shout out to my crew, the only one of whom I have noticed is still kickin it would be Mr. Ray. No Doc, No Astro, No Andoman, No Thinkingman. What, they were all Belkin? Later.
Time to rebuild
June 2nd, 2010
6:50 pm
AMARE
JOSH
JJ(HE CAN PLAY THE 3)
CRAWFORD
TEAGUE
GOTAT
JOE SMITH
MOE EVANS
FLIP MURRY
BIBBY
Sautee
June 2nd, 2010
6:51 pm
Sorry Truth-serum, but Mike is still on his rookie contract. Poor asset management to trade him.
cdog
June 2nd, 2010
6:53 pm
big ray, granddad, just because other teams hasn’t hired a coach, does that mean that rick sund should wait on them? no. he is suppose to be working to make the hawks better.thats what’s been wrong with atlanta sports teams over the years.they wait on other teams to make moves instead of doing it themselves.atlanta usually ends up getting the pick of the litter.yes, i’m sold on avery johnson because he is a proven winner.he is what the hawks need now that woodson is gone.he is versitle. a player like marvin williams and josh smith would really shine in his system. also, he has videos out that proves his knowledge of the game.you all are not knowledgeable basketball people.you are going off of personal feelings the same as sund.yes,if sund keeps sitting around with a cell phone stuck in his ear and do nothing, the hawks will be the same kind of team the wizards are, losers.he need to bring johnson in, get out of his way, and let the team play.you will see winning results with avery johnson
Ken Strickland
June 2nd, 2010
6:54 pm
Almost everyone seems to want to make an issue of Marvins weaknesses. Well, he’s proven he can score, since he’s averaged 14.8PPG and 6.3RPG already. I think he can duplicate, or even exceed those figures if he’s included, rather than excluded in the OFF, and isn’t forced to play ISO and get his points trying beat someone off the dribble, or create his own shot. He can also get more rebounds if he’s not always clearing out so someone can go ISO, or constantly switching out on the perimeter and away from the basket.
Rip Hamilton became an Allstar with the Pistons, and he definitely wouldn’t have become an Allstar with them based on his ability to pass, create his own shot, dribble, or take anyone off the dribble. You create an OFF system that puts Marvin in a position to take advantage of what he does best, and that’s shoot and draw fouls. You don’t force him, or anyone else for that matter, to try and score by playing to their weaknesses.
C DHoward is an outstanding athlete, and the NBA’s most dominant center, but it would be absolutely STUPID to force him to score like DNowitzki.
Sautee
June 2nd, 2010
6:56 pm
Flash,
Long time, man. Good to see you’re still around.
A lot of us old timers are still kicking over on the fan blog. Ray is the moderator.
Check it out at: http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-hawks-blog/2010/05/27/hawks-fans-summer-speculation/
Time to rebuild
June 2nd, 2010
6:56 pm
ITTY, BITTY, HEY RAY, NO COACH HAS BEEN HIRED AS OF YET AND INTERVIEW ARE JUST TOKEN AT THIS POINT.
WOODSON IS ON VACATION.
THERE WILL COME A TIME WHEN THE FIRST COACH IS HIRED AND THEN IT WILL START A CHAIN REACTION.
WOODSON IS A RISING STAR..AND HAS A LONG CAREER AHEAD OF HIM. IT DOESNT MATTER IF HE COMES BACK NEXT YEAR OR THE YEAR AFTER…HE WILL BE A HEAD COACH AGAIN AND WONT HAVE TO SIT OUT AS LONG AS AVERY DID OR IS….
WHAT GOES ON IN BIG RAYS HEAD…….WOODSON IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE WORLD’S POVERTY…
Najeh Davenpoop
June 2nd, 2010
7:09 pm
“Memphis gets:
* Jamal Crawford
* Jeff Teague
Hawks get:
O.J. Mayo
Hasheem Thabeet”
With Rudy Gay possibly leaving and Zach Randolph possibly going to jail, I don’t think there’s any way the Grizzlies part with Mayo.
Najeh Davenpoop
June 2nd, 2010
7:13 pm
“Almost everyone seems to want to make an issue of Marvins weaknesses. Well, he’s proven he can score, since he’s averaged 14.8PPG and 6.3RPG already. ”
He did that in the same Woody isolation offense in which he barely averaged 10 points per game this year. Why did he regress?
You can blame Woody for a lot of things, but there’s a lot Marvin can do better than he currently does. I wrote a pretty long post about this that got swallowed up by the blog monster, so I’m not going to repeat all of it, but if Marvin focused on just making open 3’s and playing lock down defense this year, he would have been a major asset. Neither of those things require coaching.
Najeh Davenpoop
June 2nd, 2010
7:18 pm
“I think that Gearon has to keep paying JJ, which means that this team will have no half-court offense worth talking about, which you need if you want to be taken seriously during serious times. ”
Having Joe doesn’t automatically mean there’s no half court offense. Joe proved in Phoenix that he can thrive in a system where he doesn’t hog the ball. The ball-hoggery was by Woody’s design. Joe is fully capable of playing and thriving in a system designed around Teague running pick and rolls with Smoove and pick and pops with Horford.
It’s on the next coach to make this happen — let Teague play a Tony Parker/Rajon Rondo type of role, let Smoove and Horford anchor your post offense, and allow Joe to play a role similar to Manu Ginobili, Ray Allen, and Paul Pierce — all players who can put up big time scoring numbers, but none of whom hog the ball in their respective offenses.
Pierce, in particular, is a good example of this — during the years when the Celtics were centered around him and Antoine Walker, he used to be a notorious ball hog, but with the emergence of Rondo and the acquisition of Garnett and Allen, he doesn’t hog the ball nearly as much but is still effective.
doc
June 2nd, 2010
7:20 pm
flash, still looking at you and if you had followed any of the blog for the last three years you would know you are singing to the chorus. the most recent has been his expecting fans to come out and our assistant gm saying there are no worthy picks at 24 unless he want sot work hard. no frigging accountability from the top down.
how you doing man, got the feldenkreis down yet?
Grandad
June 2nd, 2010
7:30 pm
cdog – I don’t want to be 1st just to be 1st.
I want Mr. Sund to be right rather than 1st.
Actually Avery Johnson is [my] 1st choice @ this point.
So – in that regard, we are on the same page.
Plus, [and] I don’t really have an answer as to why,
but I do not particularly care for Casey.
However, when all is said and done, I support Mr. Sund.
He has given me “NO” reason “NOT” to support him.
And by the way…who cares if Avery has a tape.
I’ll make a tape.
Then if I apply, would you support me as a candidate.
If Mr. Sund hires Av Johnson then will you then reverse
your position as a Sund-cynic.
Najeh Davenpoop
June 2nd, 2010
7:31 pm
“the answer to your dwight/lebron trade is that neither team does the trade. it hardly ever happens. teams don’t swap all stars.”
I know they won’t in real life. It’s a hypothetical question based on your statement that PGs and Cs won’t be traded for equally good players at other positions. I’m asking whether you would decline a Howard-for-LeBron trade if you were the Magic GM.
“teams will not give you equal, proven value for josh smith. you can either take a payer near the end of his career, or you can take a couple of cheaper players with upside. ”
Then you shouldn’t trade him. There are two reasons to make a trade — either you get an equally good player/players who fit your system better, or you clear salary cap space to rebuild/make a run at a free agent. Your trade does neither.
Anyway, I don’t see how you come to the conclusion that a 24-year-old borderline All-Star player who presumably hasn’t reached his peak yet and gets paid a very reasonable contract will only get unproven, unproductive, or washed up players in return.
“you can’t prove that gortat will not be a solid starter and you can’t prove that he will until he gets the opportunity. ”
You can, however, prove that Josh Smith will be a Defensive Player of the Year candidate and borderline All-Star. Why trade a proven commodity for a very, very unproven one?
“would you rather have one of them or a 26 yr old with solid per-minute stats and a reasonable contract for the next 4 years?”
The Hawks have already been down this road, when they signed a 20-year-old center with very similar per-minute stats to Gortat to be their starting center for a reasonable, 4 year contract.
His name is Zaza Pachulia.
For the record, Zaza is only a week older than Gortat, and both this past season and over their careers their per-minute stats are very similar. Gortat blocks more shots and shoots a higher percentage (a lot of that is because he gets more dunks since he plays with a better point guard), while Zaza gets more dimes and more steals. But both rebound at the same rate and are very, very similar per-minute players.
If you think trading the #2 DPOY for Zaza 2.0 is a good trade just because Zaza 2.0 plays center, then I don’t know what else to tell you.
Najeh Davenpoop
June 2nd, 2010
7:38 pm
For all the talk of how Horford is not a center, there are two centers in the league who cause him problems — Howard and the Shaq/Ilgauskas combo. Horford at least holds his own against every other center in the league, including Brook Lopez, Andrew Bogut, Andrew Bynum, Brendan Haywood, as well as the pseudo-centers like Bosh and Amare that so many people on this blog have a hard-on for. Blowing up an otherwise very productive front court because two teams in the league give the Hawks problems is an idiotic idea.
The Hawks need a physical, strong, 25-30 minute defensive center who will come in and give Horford a breather. That’s it. No need to trade either Smoove or Horford, unless they receive an equally good or better player in return.
Najeh Davenpoop
June 2nd, 2010
7:41 pm
On another note, we all remember how Billy Knight picked Acie Law against Woody’s wishes, Woody never warmed up to playing Acie, and that draft pick ended up getting wasted. Knowing this, wouldn’t it make sense to have a coach in place before the draft so that he is involved in the process of picking a player? Why draft a guy and then bring in a coach whose system might not allow that player to be a good fit?
Siler Maybe?
June 2nd, 2010
7:54 pm
The Hawks should have kept that Garret Siler kid….he may have needed some time to get better but come on you signed Jason Collins just to sit on the bench…..I dont think they should have let him go and I wonder if he is available? Young kid with that kind of size probably could have helped against Howard
Grandad
June 2nd, 2010
7:56 pm
Sautee:
What you have to understand is my motivation.
G-dad’s trade’s don’t alway’s reflect my personal
views. His trades are to provoke thought & discussion.
Also he absolutely tries to apply logic into each trade
from both teams viewpoints. Hence the darn trade machine.
We’ve all had enough:
What about Zaza & Bibby – for – D.Wade?
In reality I was trying to figure out who this *Lagree fella
was talkin’ about when he said Atl. would pkg. Marv & Jamal
to acquire a wingman for Joe. (Robin to Joe’s Batman)
He mentioned a star quality player – so I started trying to
figure who they would bring.
Trade machine tied my hands.
I’m also thinking a pkg of Jamal, Marv, Childress [S&T],*(Teague)
would acquire Mayo + ________?
*Teague would not be my 1st choice* to trade away.
I began to study Mayo’s stats & read about him.
He is impressive.
If we lose Joe – he is the kind of player who would
soften the blow & help fill the void.
He’s not a one dimensional player.
So…after all that…yes, Ill keep tryin’.
Sautee
June 2nd, 2010
8:05 pm
Najeh,
Co-sign your 7:38 post. Big Time.
Grandad,
If YOU were Memphis, would YOU trade Mayo?
robdawg08
June 2nd, 2010
8:25 pm
Marvin Williams was a stupid pick to start with. He was the 6th man in college with N.C.
How can you pass on a point guard like Chris Paul ? Billy Knight should have resigned the next day after the draft.
No top center = no deep playoff run. Bank on that Homey The Clown !
tyger
June 2nd, 2010
8:27 pm
Rand MO:
As a senior for Atlanta, Georgia’s Landmark Christian High School, Morris averaged almost a triple-double at 23.0 ppg, 16.0 rpg and 8.0 bpg, earning him McDonald’s All-American Team status. Randolph Morris was the #2 rated center and #10 overall prospect by Rivals.com in a year when a record eight high schoolers went directly to the NBA draft.
If he were eligible today, he would be a top 10 pick based on high school alone.
Najeh Davenpoop
June 2nd, 2010
8:58 pm
On a non-basketball related note, don’t know how many of y’all saw this Detroit Tigers pitcher get robbed by the umpire of a perfect game on the final play of the game. That’s gotta be one of the craziest things happen in any sport that I’ve ever seen.