Atlanta Hawks: Attention on centers
Can Haywood really be had for the mid-level?
The Hawks say they are looking to free agency instead of the draft for frontcourt help. At this point it’s not clear if that need supersedes their desire for a starting-caliber point guard (in case the Jeff Teague thing doesn’t yield immediate fruits) or wing player (in case J.J. bolts in free agency). This is especially the case since the returning frontcourt (Al, Josh, and Zaza) might be a stronger group than the returning backcourt (Bibby, Jamal, Marvin and Teague).
But since the draft doesn’t look like it will yield a big man who can contribute now at pick No. 24, and Jason Collins and Randolph Morris both are free agents, the Hawks will need a center one way or the other. Let’s assume they won’t go the vet-minimum route this time and will actually use their mid-level exception to seek a starting-caliber center (neither assumption is safe, but let’s just say both are plausible). What kind of center could the Hawks expect to acquire in free agency this summer?
First, let me say that trying to predict the market for free agents this summer is tricky. With so many teams potentially having so much cap space (and presumably a desire to spend the money) so-so players might find a strong market for their services. Add in the fact that the focus here is free-agent centers in a league where “quality big man” is usually near the top of the list of wants for most teams in the league, and it makes things even more unpredictable.
(To illustrate that point, see this quote from Magic GM Otis Smith explaining why he used the full mid-level exception last year to re-sign Marcin Gortat, a backup center of modest accomplishment: “Like I said before, we’re in a league that probably only has 10 centers. We just happen to have two. It’s a luxury.”)
But we can look at what happened with free agent centers in years past to get some kind of feel for what the market might dictate. Then I’ll look at some of the free-agent centers for a clue as to what the Hawks might reasonably find available for the mid-level exception.
In 2008, centers Emeka Okafor and Andrew Bogut got the big money, with each signing five-year deals averaging $12 million . Bogut signed an extension before the final year of his rookie contract. The Bobcats signed Okafor to the deal after it had extended a one-year qualifying offer for $7.1 million and after DeSagna Diop turned down their contract starting at the mid-level.
Diop signed a comparable deal with Dallas, so he is the kind of center the full mid-level got you in 2008. But the market was different back then. There were only four or five teams with enough salary-cap space to add players with significant salaries, compared with eight or nine that could do so this summer. So if a salary starting at $5.6 million got you Diop back then, a salary starting at $5.73 million (Larry Coon’s estimate for the mid-level in 2010-11) may not get you even that much now.
Last summer the Cavs signed Anderson Varejao to a deal worth a bit more than the mid-level with five years guaranteed. The Magic matched the offer sheet Gortat signed with Dallas for the full mid-level. And Boston added Rasheed Wallace using their full mid-level exception (yeah, I know, ‘Sheed ain’t exactly a banger in the post but he’s savvy enough to play center as he showed against Dwight Howard). Once again the market was different in 2009, with not so many teams with significant cap space, but it’s a starting point.
That gives us a list of free-agent, mid-level centers (or in Varejao’s case, near it) over the last two years that includes Diop, Varejao, Gortat and Wallace. Looking at how they compared statistically in 2009-10, it seems the Celtics overpayed for ‘Sheed, but then again what they really paid for is what he’s doing now in the playoffs.
So with those four players as the baseline, which 2010 NBA free-agent centers compare as far as their production while also taking their age into account? After crunching the numbers and considering the market, my (subjective) list includes Brendan Haywood, Shaquille O’Neal, Joel Przybilla, Brad Miller and Darko Milicic. Now, like I said, perhaps interest from with salary-cap space drives up the price of these players, or maybe teams they aren’t even worth the full mid-level at this point, but I’m putting them out there for comparison and discussion (hey, it’s June 1 and things are quiet).
The best (realistic) option among the group might be Haywood, who made $6 million this season. He will be 31 in November, which makes him about three years older than Varejao was when he got his deal from Cleveland. So even if he finds his market value inflated he may not be able to attract more than the mid-level, particularly if he wants three years or more.
Haywood and Varejao have remarkably similar statistical profiles. Haywood has a comparable player efficiency rating, rebounding percentage, true shooting percentage and is a better shot-blocker. Varejao is a more effective passer and gets more steals.
Haywood is better than Diop, who turns 29 next January (though he should have plenty of tread left with an average of 14.3 minutes in 536 games). Przybilla (who has a $7.4 million player option for 2009-10) turns 31 before next season; he had a good year in 2008-09 but wasn’t productive during an injury-marred season in 2009-10.
Miller, 34, fell off this season. Shaq actually had a pretty efficient year but age, injury and motivation are concerns so his days of big money are over. Darko ($7.5 million) is still only 24-years old if you can believe that but he’s still mostly about size and potential and isn’t really a willing defender or rebounder.
Haywood, by the way, said he wants to re-sign with the Mavericks. Apparently, watching old and injured Erick Dampier start over him didn’t sour him on his experience in Dallas. The Mavs, who hold Haywood’s Bird Rights, apparently are high on him. Coach Rick Carlisle to NBA.com:
“It’s very important to get Haywood re-signed. I really liked what he did for us. He’s a guy that had an impact on both ends. At 30 years old, he’s relatively young for a center. Centers tend to play for a very long time…Brendan is very athletic. He’s got a good feel for the game. He’s got a good knowledge of the game.”
Some other potential free-agent centers who likely won’t get the full mid-level if they hit the market: Channing Frye ($2.08 million player option for 2010-11), Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Nenad Krstic ($5.4 million player option for 2010-11), Chris Wilcox ($3 million player option for 2010-11), Ben Wallace, and Theo Ratliff.
A full list of free agents by position is available at Hoopsworld.com.
– All appears calm on the coaching search front with ASG’s Michael Gearon Jr. away on business until next week. Mark Jackson interviewed over the weekend but he still looks to be a long shot due to his lack of coaching experience.
MC
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397 comments Add your comment
Grandad
June 2nd, 2010
11:22 am
Ramon – Don’t give BK cred for drafting Gasol
then pre-arranging a trade prior to the draft
for SAR. If he knew Gasol was gonna be Gasol
then why arrange a trade before the draft.
Obviously *Portland orchestrated the choice.
*[or Vancouver or where-ever the heck SAR came from]
((( Bravo Mr. Strickland )))
JoJo the Godfather:
Your trade as was concieved (including Josh) I must defer.
However, a smaller transaction, picking up Bass – I’m most
comfortable with. Although Orl. would be reluctant to trade
within the division.
ReddJonn68
June 2nd, 2010
12:03 pm
This copycat league is the reason the Hawks will never win. Seems we are always monkey see monkey do when it comes 2 making any sound moves. I’ve said it before & will say it again we will regret not actually taking Mark Jackson as our next coach, this guy reminds me of Doc. Someone had 2 take a chance on Doc, why can’t we break the mold & take Jackson.Don’t forget that we listened to the so-called experts about a “can’t miss pick” when we took Marvin in the draft. Also when rating these centers some may fill part of what’s needed, because it was obvious we could used some inside help in the playoffs. As stated in the article Orlando has two centers & completely got outplayed & outhustled, as did we. Whatever player or players this franchise drafts or brings in via free agency, better have two things that are not in the scouting reports or stats Toughness & Hustle !!!!!
Tim Todo
June 2nd, 2010
12:07 pm
we need to try and get Javale McGee from the Washington Wizards.this guy gives the hawks bigs much trouble when they play them.he,s young and can run the floor really well,he would be a graet addition to our team real good defense also. Mr Sund please give it some thought
Big Ray
June 2nd, 2010
12:11 pm
Rod ,
Admittedly, Marvin seems to be somewhat allergic to dribbling the ball. Only the year before last did he finally learn how to take good angles to the basket, making me think he was finally “getting there.” Then he promptly forgot that this last year and went back to flopping and flailing at the first sign of contact on the way to the hoop. Weird.
To be honest, I always hoped he would be steady and serviceable, I would have been okay (though not at all thrilled) with a 14 and 6 type, as long as he played maddeningly stingy defense and developed a 3 point shot. Both were largely absent this past season. At this point I’m not convinced that even a different coach would be that much of a help, but I could be wrong about that. I know I can’t stand another year of 10 and 5 with 44% shooting at the SF spot with multiple disappearnces, I can tell ya that….
cp
June 2nd, 2010
12:13 pm
The Ayatollah yea you’re post pretty much summed it up perfectly.
Sautee
June 2nd, 2010
12:17 pm
Truth-serum,
The playoffs are ultimately what matters, right?
In the playoffs Al Horford averaged MORE BLOCKED SHOTS than Andrew Bynum, Brenden Haywood, Joakim Noah, and Shaq.
He was 4th among all centers in the playoffs in blocks per game.
And don’t give me that “well he was playing against a second string center b.s.”
Most of his blocks against Milwaukee were against penetrating guards.
That said, I question your premise that blocked shots are SO important. Did it help Orlando against Boston to have the best shot blocker in the league?
If blocked shots were all it took than why isn’t Orlando still playing?
cp
June 2nd, 2010
12:17 pm
lol Big Ray. If you are still willing to see what Marvin can do with a new coach then my brother you have a lot more patience than me. I have given up all hope with that cat. I just don’t see how a new coach will be able to fix things such as his inability to finish in traffic, dribble the ball without falling and the many other goofy things he does on the court. Like I keep saying, that last game of the season really opened my eyes about Marvin. Dude was playing with the second string and did not stand out at all. In fact he looked worse than some of the guys who normally sit at the bench. I really wish I could see footage of what Duck did in that workout. I just want to see what the hell he was doing that made them think he was the choice.
All I'm Saying Is...
June 2nd, 2010
12:23 pm
Since it appears that a veteran Center that is solid and not spectacular (which is all we need) is not likely available, looks like we’ll need to get creative.
Is Thabeet still in the doghouse in Memphis? Is he worth the risk?
What about Garrett Siler? Should we bring him back and stick him in there? I thought he looked okay during training camp.
Also, Randolph Morris, truth be told, never got a chance here in Atlanta due to his immaturity in his first year or so and Woody’s reluctance to play any of our young guys during the past season so I say keep him and PLAY HIM!
LET’S GO HAWKS!
Big Ray
June 2nd, 2010
12:34 pm
CP ,
Actually my patience is up, which is why I said I’m not convinced that a new coach could help the situation. The only reason I’m going to see what happens is because unless Sund trades him, we’re stuck watching him again….
Like you, I have NO idea what it was that made him so attractive to anybody, for him to be projected that high, much less actually picked that high. But Sund re-signed him, so here we are. Then again, I don’t think anybody ever expected him to get worse in his fifth year, either.
O'Brien
June 2nd, 2010
12:35 pm
cp,
There was a rumor that Marvin was tired (out of shape maybe), and struggled to finish his workout with the Hawks.
Ray,
If Marvin can average 12 and 6, but play defense capable of third team all NBA defense, and knock down the open shot (especially the 3) at big moments, I would be okay with that.
The undrafted Bruce Bowen has a career average of 6 and 3. However, he made all NBA defense (first or second team) 8 times, and he could be counted on to make the corner 3.
Thats what Marvin’s role should be. Can he do it? Only Marvin knows.
O'Brien
June 2nd, 2010
12:40 pm
Found these quotes on the internet (accessnorthgeorgia.com);
Atlanta coach Mike Woodson said he was impressed with Williams’ range and shooting abilities. “He’ll be a pretty damn good player in our league. He works his butt off,” Woodson said.
Woodson said he only wished that the 6-foot-9 Williams had worked out against another player.
“It’s tough when you put a guy through an individual workout without someone to compare him against,” Woodson said. “But we have to respect that and work around that.”
If Marvin had worked out against another player, maybe they would have seen him stumbling and fumbling, and getting his shot blocked. At least we know what they liked in Marvin. His range and shooting abilities. Where has his range gone? I dont know…
Suck on this...
June 2nd, 2010
12:55 pm
Josh is not going any where because he is a better 4 than Al will ever be. Whatz up Itty bitty Ray Ray.
Suck on this...
June 2nd, 2010
12:57 pm
Ray’s Thinking pattern….”Woodson is responsible for the Great Depression…..Yep, fire Woodson!”
Suck on this...
June 2nd, 2010
12:58 pm
time to rebuild
Rufus1
June 2nd, 2010
1:01 pm
Rod
I am not saying Marvin is Great, but I will not trade CRABS(Marvin) for HERPES(Deng, Hinrich or Turk)..
Rod from College Park
June 2nd, 2010
1:01 pm
Ah the infamous workout. He hit all his jumpshots with no one checking him. If you go to the games now, his does that pre-game as well. He’s the classic looks good walking in the gym guy. It really makes you wonder about this organization, to take a guy that high without having him work out against anyone. This ain’t the globetrotters, it’s a professional basketball organization. Did they consider that maybe he just got hot that day, like he did agianst San Antonio this year? I’m over the draft part, the resign it what bothers me now.
northcyde
June 2nd, 2010
1:02 pm
(( shrugging shoulders ))
Like I said .. .the ASG should’ve just named Woody the GM, if all Sund was doing was giving Woody everything he wanted.
Everybody in this fan base knew that Woody coached the Hawks to win every game possible last year. The dude didn’t have the job security to try to develop people, because if it had backfired, he would’ve been fired midway through the season. Let the Hawks have been 12 – 13 around Christmas, the FIRE WOODY drums would’ve been beating like you were at a soccer game in Brazil.
And I never said the moves Sund did last season were bad. We won 53 games, and Crawford is a big reason why we won those extra 6 games this year. I thoroughly enjoyed what we did last year, ( even though the same people who questioning me now, complained about the team and the coach all year ). It’s unfortunate how the playoffs turned out, with both the coach and players melting down at the worse possible time. But I’ll always remember how great of a regular season we had last year.
Having said that . . . understand that when you make the Crawford move, it takes you right out of the 2010 free agency sweepstakes. Crawford’s 10 million on the books is the difference between us having almost 20 million under the cap ( if we renounced everybody, including JJ and Chill ), instead of 8 million, if we do that this summer.
*******************************
Forget a trade for Andre Miller. Say we DON’T do that, and DON’T do a Crawford trade . . but instead do everything else . . this is your Hawks team last year, along with what they’d make:
PG – Bibby ( 6.2 mill )
G – JJ ( 15 mill )
F – Marvin ( 7.5 mill )
F – Smoove ( 10.8 mill )
C – Horford ( 4.3 mill )
Bench:
G – Acie ( 2.2 mill )
G – Teague ( 1.4 mill)
G/F – Evans ( 2.5 mill )
F – Joe Smith ( 1.3 mill )
C – Zaza ( 4.7 mill )
G – Speedy ( 5 mill )
C – Jason Collins ( 1.2 mill )
G – West ( .5 mill )
F – Hunter ( .3 mill )
Rough total: 63.8 mill
With this lineup, Woody is pretty much FORCED to play either Acie or Teague at the backup point. Or do like he did in the preseason of 2007, when he was playing Lue, Acie, and AJ as a “3-headed monster” at the point. Of course, Acie and Teague combined couldn’t give us what Crawford gave us. But it would’ve given us a decent look at each guard. With the way Bibby regressed throughout the year, the opportunity would’ve been there for one of the kids to step up and get major playing time.
Woody would still go with a short rotation, with Zaza and Evans being the main guys off the bench, along with Teague and Law splitting time at the backup PG ( unless one of them emerged as the solid backup ). And guys like Marvin, Horford and JJ would still have to play multiple positions.
That squad, unless we get real good play out of the Teague/Law combination coming off the bench . . or great play out of Marvin . . wins anywhere from 43 – 47 games. Our starters, for most of the year, would’ve still been good enough to beat most teams, but we’d struggle against the top level teams.
*****************************
Now . . let’s see what we would’ve had coming into 2010, as far as who would be under contract, and how much money they would make:
Smoove ( 11.6 mill )
Marvin ( 6.7 mill )
Bibby ( 5.6 mill )
Horford ( 5.4 mill )
Zaza ( 4.2 mill )
Teague ( 1.5 mill )
1st round pick ( 2 mill ? ) . . because the Hawks wouldn’t have won 50 games with that squad, and would be picking a little higher in the draft.
Rough total: 37 million
The cap holds of JJ and Chill would prevent the Hawks from doing something significant to change the team. You’re still talking about 27+ million in cap holds, which would put us 8 million over the 56 mill estimated salary cap.
Renounce everybody except JJ, and you’re looking at the Hawks still being just 2 million under the cap. Renounce everybody, including JJ, and all of a sudden, you become a MAJOR PLAYER in the free agency bonanza, with almost 20 million to spend under the cap.
And had Marvin been on his Qualifying Offer, that number could’ve been as high as 26 million ( if everybody was renounced, including Marvin ) . . or 10 million, had we renounced everybody but JJ.
The question then will be . . . would a major free agent come to Atlanta? ( which has always been a historical problem ). But even if the goal was to keep JJ, this team could potentially spend 10 million on a player, or multiple players, without even being over the salary cap . . . plus have the MLE to spend.
*************************************************
The job of a GM is to do whatever he can to make the team better, within the financial parameters that ownership sets. I don’t fault Sund for making the Crawford move. It made us a better team. It’s just unfortunate that it didn’t pay dividends in the playoffs, along with the coach and other players selling us out.
But if Woody was basically a “lame duck” coach if he didn’t get to the Eastern Conference Finals . . Sund could’ve easily put this team in position to be a player in the 2010 free agency sweepstakes, if worst came to worst with JJ.
Instead, Jamal Crawford is the likely replacement for JJ . . we’ll get a new coach . . and we still have PG and big man issues.
Facts are facts folks.
Suck on this...
June 2nd, 2010
1:03 pm
saltee, I feel you. I too have been searching for a way to make Horford’s weak defensive 5 game look good, and , like you, I have had any success at it. The man will never have the type of defensive skills necessary to “man” the 5 post.
Hes proven that.
Time to trade him will he has some value. Hes peaked! with all that tweaking hes only 1 basket above his career average.
I guess you and me will have to sit and wait for the next center.
Sorry Florida fans.
Rod from College Park
June 2nd, 2010
1:04 pm
Rufus1,
You would be lucky to get anything above servicable for Marvin at this point, because that’s what he is. Those guys you listed are better than servicable.
JoJo the Godfather
June 2nd, 2010
1:04 pm
Stats to support my Josh for Gortat & Bass trade.
Gortat blocks shots on a per minute basis at a higher rate than Josh. Based on 35 minutes a game this last year, Josh avgd 2.1 blocks per game. Gortat projects out to 2.4 over 35 minutes.
Gortat’s rebounding in superior. Josh’s rebound per 40 minute avg is 9.8, while Gortat’s is 12.5.
Josh scores at a higher rate, 17.7 per 40 minutes to Gortat’s 10.8, but guess what, Bass’s scoring rate is better than Josh’s at 17.9 per 40 minutes.
Both Gortat & Bass have a higher total shooting % than Josh (56.3%, 55.6%, and 53.6% respectively).
Josh is much better in the assists category. Not even close.
The value in this trade is not that far off. Don’t get caught up with not trading within the division. The trade makes sense for both sides.
Suck on this...
June 2nd, 2010
1:07 pm
*havent had any success at making horford 5 game look good.
Suck on this...
June 2nd, 2010
1:09 pm
Gortat is a center, josh a power forward. But I do agree that Gortats number as a center is better than al’s as a center.
Suck on this...
June 2nd, 2010
1:10 pm
We are not having a problem at power forward but At center so lets fix whats broke not what aint!
Ken Strickland
June 2nd, 2010
1:20 pm
RAMON-The Hawks managed to win 53gms and finish 3nd in the East using Zaza as our only backup center. What we need most is a HC with a gm plan and a center, or centers, that can limit the effectiveness of DHoward. I don’t think BHeywood offers the size, strength or versatility to solve that particular problem. Mixing it up with Horford, Zaza, Siler and the European draft pick would work his butt hard.
Don’t get me wrong, if we can sign Heywood, sign him ASAP, but we’d still need another big body, like Siler, for the Shaq’s and Howard’s. Even without JJ, we can be just as good, record wise, as we were last season. With spreading the OFF wealth and relying less on one player, playing consistently better DEF, especially at the PG position, more penetration, and a more involved OFF system, with a commitment to running, will make a tremendous difference.
Having a HC that understands the value of matching up to the opposition, and/or forcing them to match up to us, and who is willing to utilize his resources to make it work, will go a long way towards closing the gap that could be created by JJ’s potential loss.
We might not be as talented without JJ, but we could eventually end up becoming a better team. One more thing to consider. Has anyone considered that JJ might have rejected our initial contract offer because he wanted to see if Woodson would be rehired before making a decision? With the way he ignored and disrespected Woodson, especially down the stretch, and the fact he hasn’t uttered a single word against or about his dismissal, certainly makes you wonder. While money might still be a factor, and if all things are equal and the Hawks make an acceptable offer, with Woodson gone he might resign.
He knows money is an issue with the ASG, and he probably doesn’t want the ASG to think he’ll accept a hometown discount to resign. But, if their offer is in the ballpark with other offers, I can see him resigning. He certainly doesn’t want to be the do all be all for a rebuilding franchise like the Knicks. If he wants to win an NBA title, the Hawks have more talent and have finished higher than any of the teams that will be vying for his services.
Ken Strickland
June 2nd, 2010
1:35 pm
SUCK-how many rebounds and blocks per 40 mins do you think Gotat would have accumulated if he’d been required to switch off and defend against PG’s and SG’s on the perimeter? Of course, I’m assuming you actually noticed, or can remember how often teams involved Horford, Zaza and Josh in their pick and rolls in order to create and then take advantage of these favorable match ups.
Can you see, or will you admit, that it’s very difficult for any Center to block shots and protect the basket if they’re above the key switching off on PG’s and SG’s. Horford’s and Smoove’s overall DEF abilities were compromised by Woodson in a futile attempt to hide Bibby’s obvious DEF liabilities. Woodson acknowledged it numerous times.
cp
June 2nd, 2010
1:42 pm
lol great points ray.
O’Brien if I remember correctly they had to cut Marvin’s workout with the Bucks short because he was so out of shape he couldn’t finish it. Honestly this should have been a sign to the Hawks. A guy who is projected to go 1 or 2 in the draft didn’t even care enough to stay in shape. If that isn’t a red flag I don’t know what is..
Rod from CP. I think Marvin is probably the poster child for why guys refuse to workout against other players. A lot of times the agents wont allow them too. I think had Marvin had to compete against somebody 1 on 1 he would have been greatly exposed. A lot of players don’t work out against anybody for this very reason. Marvin would have probably fell down 10 times and had his shot blocked another 10 if he had to work out against somebody.
Ken Strickland
June 2nd, 2010
2:01 pm
SUCK-you’ve made a habit of comparing Horford’s stats with other centers, even going as far as misrepresenting the facts in some of those comparisons. If you really think Horford is our problem or weakest link, why don’t you do all of a favor, including yourself, and compare Bibby’s stats to the rest of the NBA’s starting PG’s? Then come back and tell us again how Horford is our weakest link, after showing us how the team has benefited from Bibby’s limited OFF, atrocious DEF, lack of penetrating ability, and inability to create easy scoring opportunities for others.
I’ll repeat an example I and others have presented numerous times, but you’ve conveniently avoided acknowledging or commenting on it. The Denver Nuggets traded Marcus Camby, the DEF player of the yr, who led the NBA in Blocked shots and rebounds. They replace Camby with his backup center, Nene. They also got rid of Allan Iverson, a high scoring, NO DEF PG, and replaced him with CBillups, a solid DEF minded PG.
In the end they became a much better DEF team overall because they had a center who played position DEF, rather than a shot blocker. But most importantly, they had a PG that didn’t allow the opposing PG’s to drive unabated through the lane, or make easy uncontested entry passes into the post.
IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE NBA THERE HASN’T BEEN A CENTER THAT COULD BLOCK SHOTS AND PROTECT THE BASKET WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY DEFENDING AGAINST PG’S AND SG’S ON THE PERIMETER.
O'Brien
June 2nd, 2010
2:09 pm
JoJo the Godfather,
I like Brandon Bass, and I would have liked to see Atlanta go after him last year ($16 mil over 4 years is not a bad contract).
But my major dislike about your trade, is that Gortat would be the starting center. Sure, he looks good in limited minutes (some of which is against backup players). But if he was to play 34 mpg, I think he would lose some of his effectiveness.
And if I’m trading Josh, I need a better combination than Gortat and Bass, both of who are better suited to be really good backups. Josh still has the potential to be a multiple all star, and a consistent game changer on defense.
Ken S,
Even if JJ leaves, I think with a better coach and a better system, we might play better (less offensive droughts, more ball movement etc.), but in terms of wins, I think losing JJ would set us back 5-10 games.
We would be like the Houston Rockets, who battled every game despite being overmatched and undertalented. But in the end, they won less than 45 games. Which I think is where we would be without JJ.
An Adult
June 2nd, 2010
2:29 pm
HawkKingBibby — first.. how infantile.. get a life!
JoJo the Godfather
June 2nd, 2010
2:33 pm
O’Brien…I wouldn’t want Gortat playing 34 minutes either. I’d like to see our center minutes as 26 out of him (twice what he’s getting now), Pachulia about 12, our 3rd center about 5, and Horford getting about 5 with Bass at the PF (both of these guys on the baseline with the guards driving the lane and dishing to either for a 15 footer which both can knock down).
Patrick
June 2nd, 2010
2:40 pm
It doesn’t make too much sense to talk about bringing in a center unless you are willing to trade either Al or Josh. Josh can’t play the 3, and Atlanta can’t afford to invest too much into a backup player. If you wanted to trade Josh to GS for their first round pick and Biedrins, that’s one thing. Otherwise, the idea of the Hawks spending their full mid-level to bring in Haywood, only to have him ride the bench (and they recently re-upped on Pachulia for a similar figure) makes zero sense.
Najeh Davenpoop
June 2nd, 2010
2:43 pm
“No big deal since they’ve NEVER had a good center in their franchise history (save a decrepit M.Malone).”
One of my favorite Hawks of all time, one Dikembe Mutombo Mpolondo Mukamba Jean-Jacques Wamutombo, would like to have a finger-wagging word with you my friend.
Najeh Davenpoop
June 2nd, 2010
2:47 pm
“I will say this though, the biggest mistake I think BK ever made wasn’t in the draft, but it was in trading Rasheed Wallace. ”
The pick the Hawks acquired in the Sheed trade was used on Josh Smith. You keep Sheed and you lose Smoove, who considering his draft position was easily Knight’s best draft pick ever.
Najeh Davenpoop
June 2nd, 2010
2:52 pm
“Yes regarless of what everyone says about Josh and his jumpshot, he would be a tremendous upgrade over Marvin at the 3. ”
Kobe would have been an upgrade over Slava Medvedenko at power forward, too, but that doesn’t mean he should have played there.
Josh is a PF. That is where he belongs. Yes, Marvin sucks, but if you want to replace him, bring in a better SF. Don’t under-utilize Josh by playing him out of position.
Najeh Davenpoop
June 2nd, 2010
3:01 pm
“Stats to support my Josh for Gortat & Bass trade.”
Stats can say whatever you want them to say. Trading the #2 DPOY for two backups who barely play is just idiotic. If you want a center so bad that you are willing to take 10 cents on the dollar to get one, just sign and trade Joe Johnson for Eddy Curry.
Najeh Davenpoop
June 2nd, 2010
3:16 pm
Some of y’all don’t understand the concept of trade value. Even if you want to trade Josh and even if Gortat is the next Sabonis, the fact is you can get a LOT more by trading a guy with Smoove’s skills and reasonable contract than two backups. Smoove is a borderline All-Star caliber player. You should be able to get another borderline All-Star in return for him, not just a guy who may or may not even have what it takes to start in this league.
If you want to trade Smoove for Gortat, they better throw Jameer Nelson in the deal too. I’m not sure I’d even do that, but at least you’re getting a guy who has proven he can start and who fills a need.
Ramon
June 2nd, 2010
3:17 pm
I hope people realize the Hawks do have the 4/5th best center in the league, so we’re not in need of a STARTING center. And I agree Josh is a better PF than Horford is. Josh can score on the block just as good as Horford can. Josh can rebound as well as Horford can (many of Horford rebounds do come from Josh pressuring the ball). Josh can pass better than Horford. Josh is able to guard more players than Horford. Horford is more efficient from 15 feet, but that’s about all that he does better than Josh.
Najeh Davenpoop
June 2nd, 2010
3:18 pm
Of course, all of that is irrelevant, since neither team would trade key players like Smoove or Nelson within the division.
Grandad
June 2nd, 2010
3:22 pm
‘Hatter’ – What’s your preoccupation, obsession, amusement,
recreation, infatuation, anxiety, phobia, fixation,
pastime, & or foretaste with “Suck”?
Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
Najeh Davenpoop
June 2nd, 2010
3:23 pm
“Otherwise, the idea of the Hawks spending their full mid-level to bring in Haywood, only to have him ride the bench (and they recently re-upped on Pachulia for a similar figure) makes zero sense.”
A guy of Haywood’s caliber could play 25-30 minutes a game as the 3rd big man behind Josh and Al. Those three would split the big man minutes the way Bibby, Joe, and Jamal split the PG/SG minutes this year, and on occasions where the other team has a true center that Horford would have trouble guarding, Haywood could correspondingly play more minutes. That would be well worth the mid level. Yes, it would mean Zaza would be stealing money, but that doesn’t mean the Hawks shouldn’t try to improve the team.
Fundamentals
June 2nd, 2010
3:34 pm
This summer should show us what we’ve got since kids will work hard to impress the new coach and work into the system. I think we’ll see some real progress next season out of a number of players.
We don’t want Joe if he doesn’t want us. If he plans to stay he needs to decide early. Waiting too long on cash will only kill our chances or improving the team by signing folks. Unless he’s willing to sign for what we have left in the end? His decision in my mind depends on the coach, philosophy and outlook moving forward. We have a good core. We should look good moving forward with our without Joe to free agents. He should see that as well. He needs to decide early.
I don’t like getting rid of Smoove or Horford. Marvin needs at least a 1/2 season with a new coach to decide his effectiveness. This summer is his last chance. Right now he’s bench material, but I don’t see giving up on him till you see him in a new system.
Orl won’t part with Gortat, not sure about Bass? Siler might be a project worth trying. I still say Morris didn’t get a fair shot. He needs to be used in a good system. I think he can develop and produce. ZaZa needs real competition to drive him back to excellence. He can be a very servicable backup when he decides to give effort and be a team player. Horford, Siler, Morris and ZaZa would provide good center support or I say use the draft or D-League for a servicable replacement to the Siler option? It’ll be hard to trade ZaZa, stupid to lose Morris at his value.
What about Frye to give us a shooter at the 3/4 spot? He might bulk in the coming years and develop into a solid 4 or maybe 5? He’s young. Dude can shoot it. We need that.
Bass and Mathews are intriguing to me.
Teague needs competition to spur development. Without it he’ll lose confidence and drive. I like Lowry in Houston or Raymond Felton for a guard and or Mathews.
Reddick may be of value as a shooter, how about Matt Barnes as a defender on the perimeter?
There’s alot of action coming up this offseason. I just pray we have vision and effort from our owners and Sund. We need to field a hungry product. I don’t care if they’re the best, just that they give 100% under a new coach and system. Fans can appreciate a team giving their all.
Winning isn’t everything to me. It’s more how they play the game. We had so much promise and talent this year, only to squander it.
Use what you have effectively, no one will hold it against you.
Grandad
June 2nd, 2010
3:37 pm
Does this make sense?
Shaq – rotation Big: [Josh & Al]
* 18 min per v D.Howard + * Super-Star appeal *
Atl. Mkt. = sells tickets ! (needed Charisma)
locker room presence [good / bad]? * 4 Rings *
@ what $$$ = ??? * immediate relevance !
Grandad
June 2nd, 2010
3:38 pm
Oh yeah – Shaq = Unrestricted FA.
Fundamentals
June 2nd, 2010
3:44 pm
Shaq has proven a distraction in his last few stops. He did win in Miami, but has hurt everyone he touches since. We need young, hungry, rising talent. Shaq isn’t the answer to me. Neither is Heywood. I don’t mind the other two big Wizards such as McGee.
cdog
June 2nd, 2010
3:52 pm
NOTICE HOW LONG IT HAS TAKEN RICK SUND TO BRING IN A COACH.TAKING TIME NEVER WON NO CHAMPIONSHIP.HE WANTS SOMEONE TO COME AS A LOSER THE WAY HE IS.THE BEST COACH AVAILABLE IS AVERY JOHNSON.HE WANTS JOHNSON TO STOOP TO HIS LOSING LEVEL.HE’S TRYING TO FIND A WAY TO BRING IN ONE OF HIS BUDDIES INSTEAD OF SOMEONE WHO WANTS TO WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP.YOU WILL SEE SUND AT HIS BEST THIS SEASON, A LOSER, UNLESS HE BRINGS IN JOHNSON AND LET HIM COACH AND MOLD THE HAWKS IN HIS OWN WAY.
cdog
June 2nd, 2010
3:54 pm
BEFORE ITS OVER SUND WILL MAKE THE HAWKS INTO THE WASHINGTON WIZARDS, LOSERS.WATCH AND SEE.
O'Brien
June 2nd, 2010
4:02 pm
Guys,
The key to remember here, is despite our likes and dislikes, we must also take into account who is available (free agency or trade), and if its free agency, who is available for our price (which will be the mid-level or less).
And I really think JJ is leaving. I don’t see the Hawks offering him the 6 year, $120 mil max (I wouldn’t offer it to him either), and isn’t the money one of the main reasons to stay with your current team? I think the Hawks offer him the 5 year $95 mil max, which is what other teams can offer him.
So why stay with the Hawks when you can make the same money somewhere else, play in a bigger market and be more appreciated, while playing with another big name free agent to help shoulder the load?
I think the only way JJ stays with the Hawks is if :
1) we offer him more money than other teams
2) Wade and LeBron each team up with one of the free agent bigs, leaving JJ out in the cold.
Time to rebuild
June 2nd, 2010
4:04 pm
Best coach available is Mike Woodson…Duh? Sund is clueless and has zero direction. Hes taking his time because no one want to coach under him and recognizes that he wont get the needed resources to win a championship…in addition no body wants to play for the hawks anyway after how they handle mike woodson. Time to rebuild.
i_am_soulstar
June 2nd, 2010
4:07 pm
Grandad,
I don’t think Shaq is the answer at starting center. He plays limited minutes these days, and I think we must consider how a more-talented Cleveland team acquired him the same reasons that we would be acquring him. I’d maybe trade Al or Josh (and that would involve some medium-to-heavy drinking), but definitely not both.
Fundamentals,
I wanna say it’s time to recognize a bad investment and cut our losses with the Marvin Williams thing, but just the possiblity at potential makes me wanna see him under another coach also. I hope curiousity doesn’t kill us.
Time to rebuild
June 2nd, 2010
4:10 pm
Shaq and Al another stupid idea from grandad….
speaking of stupid I think they should put you away for a long long time grandad
http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/fbi-dubs-man-who-539321.html