Atlanta Hawks: Attention on centers
Can Haywood really be had for the mid-level?
The Hawks say they are looking to free agency instead of the draft for frontcourt help. At this point it’s not clear if that need supersedes their desire for a starting-caliber point guard (in case the Jeff Teague thing doesn’t yield immediate fruits) or wing player (in case J.J. bolts in free agency). This is especially the case since the returning frontcourt (Al, Josh, and Zaza) might be a stronger group than the returning backcourt (Bibby, Jamal, Marvin and Teague).
But since the draft doesn’t look like it will yield a big man who can contribute now at pick No. 24, and Jason Collins and Randolph Morris both are free agents, the Hawks will need a center one way or the other. Let’s assume they won’t go the vet-minimum route this time and will actually use their mid-level exception to seek a starting-caliber center (neither assumption is safe, but let’s just say both are plausible). What kind of center could the Hawks expect to acquire in free agency this summer?
First, let me say that trying to predict the market for free agents this summer is tricky. With so many teams potentially having so much cap space (and presumably a desire to spend the money) so-so players might find a strong market for their services. Add in the fact that the focus here is free-agent centers in a league where “quality big man” is usually near the top of the list of wants for most teams in the league, and it makes things even more unpredictable.
(To illustrate that point, see this quote from Magic GM Otis Smith explaining why he used the full mid-level exception last year to re-sign Marcin Gortat, a backup center of modest accomplishment: “Like I said before, we’re in a league that probably only has 10 centers. We just happen to have two. It’s a luxury.”)
But we can look at what happened with free agent centers in years past to get some kind of feel for what the market might dictate. Then I’ll look at some of the free-agent centers for a clue as to what the Hawks might reasonably find available for the mid-level exception.
In 2008, centers Emeka Okafor and Andrew Bogut got the big money, with each signing five-year deals averaging $12 million . Bogut signed an extension before the final year of his rookie contract. The Bobcats signed Okafor to the deal after it had extended a one-year qualifying offer for $7.1 million and after DeSagna Diop turned down their contract starting at the mid-level.
Diop signed a comparable deal with Dallas, so he is the kind of center the full mid-level got you in 2008. But the market was different back then. There were only four or five teams with enough salary-cap space to add players with significant salaries, compared with eight or nine that could do so this summer. So if a salary starting at $5.6 million got you Diop back then, a salary starting at $5.73 million (Larry Coon’s estimate for the mid-level in 2010-11) may not get you even that much now.
Last summer the Cavs signed Anderson Varejao to a deal worth a bit more than the mid-level with five years guaranteed. The Magic matched the offer sheet Gortat signed with Dallas for the full mid-level. And Boston added Rasheed Wallace using their full mid-level exception (yeah, I know, ‘Sheed ain’t exactly a banger in the post but he’s savvy enough to play center as he showed against Dwight Howard). Once again the market was different in 2009, with not so many teams with significant cap space, but it’s a starting point.
That gives us a list of free-agent, mid-level centers (or in Varejao’s case, near it) over the last two years that includes Diop, Varejao, Gortat and Wallace. Looking at how they compared statistically in 2009-10, it seems the Celtics overpayed for ‘Sheed, but then again what they really paid for is what he’s doing now in the playoffs.
So with those four players as the baseline, which 2010 NBA free-agent centers compare as far as their production while also taking their age into account? After crunching the numbers and considering the market, my (subjective) list includes Brendan Haywood, Shaquille O’Neal, Joel Przybilla, Brad Miller and Darko Milicic. Now, like I said, perhaps interest from with salary-cap space drives up the price of these players, or maybe teams they aren’t even worth the full mid-level at this point, but I’m putting them out there for comparison and discussion (hey, it’s June 1 and things are quiet).
The best (realistic) option among the group might be Haywood, who made $6 million this season. He will be 31 in November, which makes him about three years older than Varejao was when he got his deal from Cleveland. So even if he finds his market value inflated he may not be able to attract more than the mid-level, particularly if he wants three years or more.
Haywood and Varejao have remarkably similar statistical profiles. Haywood has a comparable player efficiency rating, rebounding percentage, true shooting percentage and is a better shot-blocker. Varejao is a more effective passer and gets more steals.
Haywood is better than Diop, who turns 29 next January (though he should have plenty of tread left with an average of 14.3 minutes in 536 games). Przybilla (who has a $7.4 million player option for 2009-10) turns 31 before next season; he had a good year in 2008-09 but wasn’t productive during an injury-marred season in 2009-10.
Miller, 34, fell off this season. Shaq actually had a pretty efficient year but age, injury and motivation are concerns so his days of big money are over. Darko ($7.5 million) is still only 24-years old if you can believe that but he’s still mostly about size and potential and isn’t really a willing defender or rebounder.
Haywood, by the way, said he wants to re-sign with the Mavericks. Apparently, watching old and injured Erick Dampier start over him didn’t sour him on his experience in Dallas. The Mavs, who hold Haywood’s Bird Rights, apparently are high on him. Coach Rick Carlisle to NBA.com:
“It’s very important to get Haywood re-signed. I really liked what he did for us. He’s a guy that had an impact on both ends. At 30 years old, he’s relatively young for a center. Centers tend to play for a very long time…Brendan is very athletic. He’s got a good feel for the game. He’s got a good knowledge of the game.”
Some other potential free-agent centers who likely won’t get the full mid-level if they hit the market: Channing Frye ($2.08 million player option for 2010-11), Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Nenad Krstic ($5.4 million player option for 2010-11), Chris Wilcox ($3 million player option for 2010-11), Ben Wallace, and Theo Ratliff.
A full list of free agents by position is available at Hoopsworld.com.
– All appears calm on the coaching search front with ASG’s Michael Gearon Jr. away on business until next week. Mark Jackson interviewed over the weekend but he still looks to be a long shot due to his lack of coaching experience.
MC
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397 comments Add your comment
blonju aka the ghost of sekou smith
June 2nd, 2010
5:11 am
@northcyde
i agree that putting our hopes in teague is risky but you are acting like andre miller is 5 yrs younger.. i’ll take him 5 yrs ago, but his age and lack of athleticism are finally catching up and his inability to shoot is more evident than ever.. i agree that a 7.2 career assist average is more than modest, but on the downside of his career, his numbers are only going to get worse.. teague would certainly average at least 7 assists with starters’ minutes regardless of how much he can’t shoot or defend (just like Miller).. and to say Teague can’t finish is a joke – he had more dunks than randmo, joe smith, jason collins, and zaza combined, while averaging less than 10 minutes a game.. i don’t believe andre miller has ever even dunked the ball.. please don’t tell me HE would make this team better.. on the JJ front, if we can’t sign and trade him, we gotta let him walk – he’s just NOT worth a max deal for 4 or 5 years.. Ray Allen is more than a servicable replacement in the interim.. as far as coaches are concerned, i’m wondering if you REALLY think Avery Johnson is any better than Mark Jackson.. we are talking about a guy who went from retired player, to analyst, to 2-year stint in Dallas with loads of talent (and no postseason success), and then back to analyst/coach/GM wannabe.. the hawks would’ve done no worse this past season had Mark Jackson been the coach.. i don’t really want MJ, but as far as guys who have been interviewed, his personality suits our team best.. he could be the next doc rivers – avery certainly is not.. you’ve got to give guys a chance sometime.. if you have any better suggestions, i welcome them, but re-signing JJ and bringing in Avery will NOT get us ‘over the hump’ – we’ll be out in the 2nd round at best.. we need a revolution, not another regime!
tony
June 2nd, 2010
5:40 am
blonju aka the ghost of sekou smith, no one really knows how well a new hc will pend out because there are so many different things you have to factor in in order to become a good hc. I think the biggest hurdle for any new hc to overcome is the way he deals with his players personalities. That’s first and foremost. Having people skills and having the ability to motivate players is a most!
What type of coach would you want to play for? Would you rather play for a coach who came from a championship organization or someone who has no championship background at all? Let’s look at it from this angle. If you were going to invest your hard earn money with someone, would you rather invest it with a successful business partner or with someone who had no success at all? I’m sure we both know the answer to that question.
I think the logical thing to do in terms of hiring a hc would be to hire someone with a championship background. I like your Robert Horry suggestion, but like you said, he doesn’t have coaching experience. I like Avery Johnson, Byron Scott, Bill Laimbeer, Mario Elie, and Michael Cooper. I just want to win man! I want a CHAMPIONSHIP!
blonju aka the ghost of sekou smith
June 2nd, 2010
5:45 am
oh, and northcyde: other guys averaging 7 assists for their career who are active: LBJ, B. Davis, Rondo, D-Wade, R. Westbrook, and even Ray Felton has a career 6.4 average … the point is that Andre Miller will only be less productive in the few years he has left and his style of play is completely the opposite of what we need considering our personnel – he’s methodical, half-court, and increasingly more inefficient.. 5.4 to 2.2 assist to turnover ratio last year.. the man is 6′2, OVER 200 lbs, and 34 – not the answer! don’t forget he’s signed for 2 more years at 7 million per.. portland is stuck with him and nobody wants him.. much like we are with the bibster.. teague is a fraction of the cost and we need to see what we have here.. i’m not even a big teague fan, but he’s the answer for now, barring a trade that fits our personnel and chemistry.. Bring on more coaching suggestions!!
blonju aka the ghost of sekou smith
June 2nd, 2010
5:57 am
tony,
i completely agree with you and i’m with ya!! .. in fact, Byron Scott is perfect – i keep sleeping on him because we only hear about those being “interviewed” .. i hope RS is looking at more than what the media tells us.. i think most of the other guys you mentioned fall more into the robert horry category, regarless of “experience” or not .. sometimes, people have intangible qualities that make them suitable to lead even if they never reached the promised land as a player (a la doc rivers) .. consider that larry brown never even played in the nba but was known as a leader and knowledgable entity of the game, so therefore got into coaching after his college career was over.. certain guys are bred to be leaders as coaches and other guys are too power hungry or too submissive .. i think mark jackson could be a sleeping giant, but he might turn out to be sam mitchell or vinny del negro (both decent guys, did the best with what they had, but not ‘championship’ coaches) .. i just want a title too .. B. Scott has the personality and commands the respect that we need – i’d love to hear his name in the mix .. he certainly has the champ pedigree .. we shall see!
Melvin Flowers Macon Ga
June 2nd, 2010
6:24 am
Avery Will Make The Hawks A Better Team For Now And The Future. First Of All The Hawks Want Be Able To Do What They Want On The Floor With Avery. You Got To Follow Team Rules Or Sit.
Its Time To Get To The Next Level Bring On Avery And Get Past The Second Round In Play-Offs Next Season.
We Have Seen Coaches In The Past Have No Control Of Players: DO WE NEED ANOTHER WEAK COACH FOR 4 MORE YEARS. BRING ON A WINNER, I VOTE FOR AVERY JOHNSON.
JoJo the Godfather
June 2nd, 2010
6:48 am
No comment on my Smith for Gortat & Bass deal? Everybody wants a true center, and I’m giving you a 26 yr old that blocks shots, rebounds, and is a good locker room guy. I’m also giving you a 25 yr old, high energy backup PF that plays defense, rebounds, and has an improving mid-range game. This could be done before the draft and our front court would be set with Horford / Bass / Gortat / Pachulia. Grab a 5th big like Petro in free agency, and use the draft, MLE, and rights to Joe & Chill to figure out the guards and SF positions.
JoJo the Godfather
June 2nd, 2010
6:54 am
For guards and SFs…..Cleveland is looking for a 1st round pick. I’d trade them Bibby (who they’ve had interest in before) & the 24th pick for Delonte West (who can be cut because his salary in non-guaranteed)…..Re-sign Joe & Chill….Use the full MLE on John Salmons….Use this year’s 2nd, next year’s 2nd and Houston’s 2nd next year if needed, to trade up and draft Vasquez.
Teague / Crawford
Johnson / Salmons / Vasquez
Williams / Childress
Horford / Bass
Gortat / Pachulia / Petro
Most of this is very reasonable except for the Bibby deal (who knows), and whether Salmons will take a deal to be Joe’s backup.
John Brown
June 2nd, 2010
7:08 am
We’re debating over which looks better – the rotting apple or the rotting orange. Not gonna argue over garbage.
John Brown
June 2nd, 2010
7:09 am
Even if this offseason it’s hot garbarge…
O'Brien
June 2nd, 2010
7:17 am
Northcyde,
To be fair, you should acknowledge the influence Woody played in these decisions. It was Woody who pushed for the core (Bibby, Marvin, and ZaZa to be resigned). Woody probably liked Bibby over Miller because of Bibby’s 3pt shooting. And a good GM will consider his coach’s recommendations when making these decisions, although the GM has the final say.
But I agree with you on some of the moves. I was in favor of letting Bibby go. And I was okay with Andre Miller (who ended up signing for 2 years $14 mil, 3rd year team option, compared to Bibby 3 years guaranteed). That 3rd year guarantee to Bibby now looms large, because he would have been an expiring contract and tradeable.
I like Chills game, and think he would be a good fit at SF for us. But if he doesn’t want to be here (or if Sund does not want to pay him), then trade him and take what you can get for him (I don’t think you should just cut him, because he still has some value around the league). But if you can get a decent bench player and a draft pick, make a move to resolve the situation.
Marvin’s deal was fair, but what I did not like about the Marvin deal, was Sund did not let the market set his value.
I like the Crawford deal, because if JJ walks away, at least we have a decent option at SG. And if JJ resigns, Crawford is an expiring who can be used in a trade.
If Blair was drafted, I don’t think he would have gotten consistent PT from Woody. Woody talked about how big it was to sign a proven guy like Joe Smith, but yet Smith ended up with inconsistent PT too (not that he played all that well when he was in the game). But the one thing that concerned me about Blair was that he’s had 2 foot/knee surgeries already.
Although Woody is part of the reason for the team’s issues, the players are a HUGE part of it too. And that’s why (looking back), I don’t think Sund should have given Woody an extension 2 years ago. Because we don’t know if these players will look better under a different coach. Letting Woody go 2 years ago would have given Sund an opportunity to evaluate these players for at least 2 years under a different coach, then he could see which player needs to be traded.
John Brown
June 2nd, 2010
7:18 am
And as for Smith for Gortat and Bass? Are you insane? Have you ever watched the NBA before? That has to be the most idiotic trade suggestion I’ve heard since Pau Gasol for Kwame Brown. Now wait…that’s a better deal than the one you suggest….for Memphis!!!! Bring in 2 losers who don’t even start on their choking losing team to replace arguably our best overall player? You must be Jerry West!!! Or Otis Smith one. Dumb Dumb Dumb. Gortat is adequate at best. Bass is a PF backup at best. Josh is an All Star(snub). You know what Jo Jo. Root for the Magic! You love their subs so much obviously. Trade our future for their chokers? No thanks.
Jackson
June 2nd, 2010
8:16 am
Garrett Siler…After a year in China, he is a sleeping giant. Almost kept him last year, better get him before Miami does.
JoJo the Godfather
June 2nd, 2010
8:22 am
john brown….”their chokers” beat down your all star (snub). josh smith was whining to anyone that would listen, which was no one. at least gortat and bass came out after their loss and said we need more playing time. it’s not their fault that Van Gundy runs Dwight and 4 shooters all game long. dallas thought enough of gortat to offer him their starting center position before orlando matched. who better to defend dwight howard than the guy that has gone against him in practice every day for the last two years. the trade balances the hawks’ roster. no more guys playing out of position.
Ken Strickland
June 2nd, 2010
8:27 am
NORTHCYDE/CDOG-You’re saying you blame Sund for doing exactly what Woodson wanted him to do:
(1) resigning Bibby, Marvin and Zaza was Woodson’s stated preference.
(2) drafting JTeague was Woodson’s choice, not Sund’s.
(3) Woodson, not Sund, determined who made the active squad.
(4) It was Woodson’s OFF philosophy that emphasize outside shooting, and he definitely wanted a jump shooting PG, not a pass first, penetrating PG.
(5) It was Woodson’s stupid decision to start and give major mins to MBibby, the NBA’s slowest, LEAST athletic, LEAST productive, LEAST consistent, none penetrating and none DEF starting PG.
(5) It was Woodson’s stupid decision to:
(6) limit the use of his bench,
(7) refuse to develop and/or utilize his young players,
(8) continued using a 6 man rotation in the 2nd half of gms, after claiming he’d never try it again after it failed miserably the 1st time.
(8) refused to make a single lineup change or adjustment of any kind, even when 2 starters had regressed to the point of hurting the team.
(9) refused to make OFF and DEF adjustments during gms, especially in the playoffs when it was desperately needed.
(10) lose the respect of the very key players he depended on to a fault, even to the point where they stopped listening to anything he said or wanted them to do.
IT SHOULD BE OBVIOUS TO ANYONE NOT BLINDED BY AN OBSESSION OR ADDICTION, THAT THE PLAYERS’ WANTED WOODSON OUT AS HC, AS EVIDENCED BY THEIR LACKLUSTER PERFOMANCES, REFUSAL TO FOLLOW HIS INSTRUCTIONS, AND DEMONSTRATED LACK OF RESPECT FOR HIM AS THEIR HC.
THAT CAN’T BE BLAMED ON SUND OR ANYONE ELSE, OTHER THAN WOODSON HIMSELF.
JEWELL ROLLEN
June 2nd, 2010
8:34 am
PLEASE DO NOT MENTION DARKO’S NAME AND HAWKS BASKETBALL IN THE SAME SENTENCE….THANKS….
The Ayatollah
June 2nd, 2010
8:39 am
Ah yes, the summer of hindsight, which as we all know is 20/20.
I like how Northcyde envisions all the things Rick Sund coulda,shoulda done to put us in better position free agency-wise this summer. Gee, never heard any of this during the regular season when we were talking about how mentally tough this team was and how the great Woodson and Joe Johnson were, taking the team to new limits. Wait, didn’t the same Northcyde say this team was soft, afterwards? Woodson was mentally tough. As in stubborn as a rock. Good riddance, he could have done no better for this team than he did, and it was not enough. Stop crying for him already.
The idea that Rick Sund should not have traded Craig Claxton and Acie Law for Jamal Crawford is pure lunacy and only something a Mike Woodson fan would think up. Claxton either could not or would not play anymore. Has anybody heard from him since? Woodson did not like Acie Law or the way he played. He made comments after he left about Jeff Teague having more of a point guard game. Acie, who never said anything against Woodson while he was here, said that Woodson never really respected his game. That is believeable, but unfortunately Acie did not do well in other places either. The point is, Rick Sund exchanged two guys Woodson had no use for, for a guy that Woodson was very glad to have. Jamal Crawford ended up winning Sixth Man of the Year, so to say this was a bad move is incredibly ignorant. As it is, no way do the Hawks win 53 games with Craig and Acie, as opposed to Jamal. No, it did not work in the playoffs. Neither did Joe Johnson. Kept waiting for him to show up, which he did in maybe two or three games. Even then, he was average. The rest of the time, he stunk like a bag of dead shrimp left out in the summer heat. Elite, my arse.
Andre Miller. Where should one start? Let us go with the following things we know. Miller got the Portland Blazers where? First round loss. Feuded with the coach early in the season over playing time and starting or bench status. If you think he had issues with Nate McMillan, imagine him having to deal with the incredibly stubborn and vision-less Mike Woodson. I smell nuclear meltdown. Despite all of this, Miller would have been a better option at point guard for the Hawks. However, Mike Woodson wanted Mike Bibby and nothing else. He made it abundantly clear. Blame Rick Sund all you want, but he gave Mike Woodson what he wanted. I struggle to understand how it is that Rick Sund giving the supposedly great Mike Woodson what he wanted, is a bad thing, if you like Mike Woodson. It does not make sense. Well, that is unless of course you are looking to bash Sund and exalt the now jobless Woodson. Now the whole thing makes sense, aye?
Bringing in Allen Iverson would have been an equally stupid idea as not trading for Jamal Crawford. Iverson could not even stay in the NBA because he was such a disruptive force in the locker room. Memphis found that out quickly, but Lionel Hollins is a smart man and squashed the situation before it got out of hand. Mike Woodson would have let it go and fubared it for certain. Woe be to the team who picks him up as a head coach. Give him an assistant job, he is much better that way. The man is a fool with little or no vision. He showed he could not get his team to listen. Not Mike Bibby, not Joe Johnson, not Josh Smith, not Al Horford. Not even Jamal. That smacks of ineptitude. Remember how it was in the playoffs against Milwaukee when Woodson finally came up with a different idea than switching back and forth on defense. Joe Johnson said they were glad to try something different because what they had done all season was not working in the playoffs. What might that tell you? Nothing, if you are a fan of Mike Woodson.
DeJuan Blair landed precisely where he needed to be. Mike Woodson would have treated him like he did Jeff Teague. Gregg Popovich understood the value of a contributor, regardless of age and experience. He showed that with both Blair and George Hill, who was drafted very late in the first round and got nobody’s attention. Neither player would have sniffed more than eight or ten garbage minutes per game with Mike Woodson. Blair would have been wanting out like Solomon Jones did. Mike Woodson is gone, thank the stars.
You can always tell a narrow minded and agenda driven individual. Loves Mike Woodson, adores the fan hating Joe Johnson, hates Rick Sund, hates Jamal Crawford, blah blah blah blah blah. Get over it if you are a true fan of the team. Suck it up and move on, or shut your yammering skull cave. Although, it is probably obvious that such persons are anxiously awaiting the departure of Joe Johnson and are hoping for the team to not do well. Then they can post all year long about how bad Sund is, and how bad they miss their best friends Mike and Joe. What a sad life that must be. Suck it up.
hawkfanman
June 2nd, 2010
8:43 am
Y’ALL NEVER SHOULD LISTEN TO A WOODY LOVER, IF YA DIDN’T KNOW THAT BY NOW
Ken Strickland
June 2nd, 2010
8:48 am
Instead of suggesting all sorts of trades, and breaking up the core, why not consider the following. With the likelihood of us hiring a HC that actually has the ability and/or inclination to develop and utilize his bench and young talent, we could draft that young 7′ European center. He’s aggressive, very mobile, with tremendous OFF skills, and an excellent shooting touch, with range. Then sign GSiler, who’s big, strong and physical.
Combine those 2 with Zaza and you have a 3 headed center backing up Horford that gives us size, depth and versatility, as well as match up advantages in most situations, without costing much money. Then we could use our exemption(s) to sign a replacement for JJ, if he leaves, and a backup or replacement for Marvin.
Ramon
June 2nd, 2010
8:51 am
Ken, sorry but it may be all what Woody’s wanted, but it still was ultimately Sund’s decision! Sund could’ve held ground and to inform Woody of the type of team that he wanted to build, the way that BK did. Aside from Speedy Claxton, BK drafted the type of players that he thought would be able to be interchangeable. Til this day I still think BK is a better GM than Sund is. For one, it took Sund 2 seasons to realize what BK knew three years ago, that Woody couldn’t take this team far. Sund has been giving a lot more resources than BK was even granted in terms of money. And Sund is also operating without the dark ownership cloud operating over his head. Out of the top seven players on the Hawks, Sund has only brought in one of them, Crawford (JJ, Josh, Al, Bibby, Marvin, Zaza, Crawford).
Everyone talks about BK misses in two main drafts. But they fail to mention that BK has drafted three all-stars, and two for the Hawks (Gasol— Horford, and Josh). 2 out of 4 isn’t bad, especially when the two you hit on are future all stars, and one of them is an all defensive player. BK’s career in the draft isn’t any worse than Donnie Walsh’s, Larry Bird, Kiki, Jerry West, Rod Thorn, Pat Riley’s, and many others. Many of them hit 50% of the time, and miss 50% of the time. When BK was here, the Hawks weren’t willing to take on an additional contract like Crawford’s.
robdawg08
June 2nd, 2010
8:53 am
After reading all these comments, it is certain the Hawks will :
A)Not sign a F/A center and draft a “Project” who likely won’t ever pan out (Priest Lauderdale anyone ?).
B)Sign one of the “fill the lane” bodies that really can’t guard scorers or score themselves (Haywood,Pryz,etc.).
C)Sign Shaq so he can make rap videos in the ATL and stay injured for about 45 of the 82 games and loaf in all the other games.
Basically this financially strapped team due to insane contracts for JJ,Bibby,and J.Smith will not have a good center in 2011. No big deal since they’ve NEVER had a good center in their franchise history (save a decrepit M.Malone).
All the good teams as far as you go back had good centers (D.Robinson,Walton,Kareem,Parish,Ewing,Olajuwon,D.Howard,Gasol).
Damn !
Ramon
June 2nd, 2010
8:55 am
Ken, I’m for that agreement. I think this same roster (even though I would add Haywood, Brewer, and/or Felton) can be successful next year, and it would truly depend on the development of Teague. I think most of it will depend on Teague’s attitude. If Teague comes out with an attack mindset on the defense and offensive end, then this team will bring a different mentality totally. Aside from JJ and Mario, you never seen any one (also aside from Teague) pressure the ball all the way up court. I think small things like that will give a mental advantage to the Hawks over many other teams because the entire starting lineup are so good in the passing lanes.
Ken Strickland
June 2nd, 2010
8:59 am
AYATOLLAH-THAT ABSOLUTELY SAYS IT ALL!!!!!!!!!
Ramon
June 2nd, 2010
9:02 am
Robdawg, the Bulls didn’t have a real good center. The Piston had Ben Wallace, and he’s no better than Horford is (no taller either). The Bad Boys Pistons only had Laimbeer who is grossly overrated. In the late 80s Parrish was injured majority of the times, yet it still didn’t stop Boston from winning multiples.
Suck on this!
June 2nd, 2010
9:02 am
How about Al (I refuse to play defense) horford and turnover teague for Amare Stodumire and a player to be named later
Fire Sund and Michael Cunningham!
HawkKingBibby
June 2nd, 2010
9:15 am
@the supposed ghost of Sekou Smith: I know your really not the ghost of Sekou because Sekou could never write that many words without typing the name Kobe at least 10 times. Also MC has a good understanding of something Sekou could never quite figure out and that is a little thing called the NBA SALARY CAP. Its kind of pointless to throw trades and potential free agent signings out there without knowledge of it.
drmaryb
June 2nd, 2010
9:16 am
Bottom Line
@ #24 we have to pick the best BIG available!
Bottom Line!
drmaryb
June 2nd, 2010
9:19 am
HawkingB. @ 915 AM
Thank God! & Co-Sign that !!!
Geez what’s with all the dreamers?
Suck on this!
June 2nd, 2010
9:19 am
Horford is the odd man out. He really hasnt improved very much even with all the twiking Woodson did with him last year he only average 1f baskets more per game over his career average. He ranks very, low defensively and refuses to challenge in the post. He doesnt block shots and is ranked # 18th among centers in that category. He commits 2 fouls for every block and opposing teams love, to run plays isolating him under the basket. He and Bibby are the man reasons Woodson was force to use the switch, having to rotate to compensate for their defensive liability.
Trade horford because he is only a power forward and not as good a powerforward as josh, the # 2 defensive player in the NBA.
Al horford
81 35.1 467-847 .551 1-1 1.000 213-270 .789 2.9 7.0 9.9 .73 1.12 1.51 2.78 2.3 14.2
Career 229 33.3 1112-2109 .527 1-7 .143 517-687 .753 2.7 6.9 9.6 .75 1.14 1.58 2.98 2.1 12.0
Josh Smith (with out being twiked by woodson is still better offensively and tremendously better defensively as a power forward than horford will ever be. Josh is more of a complete player than horford, whos claim to fame is he gets the rebound after josh plays defense or blocks some shots….
Josh Smith
Season 81 35.4 504-999 .505 0-7 .000 261-422 .618 2.8 6.0 8.7 1.60 2.14 2.44 2.96 4.2 15.7
Career 457 33.7 2479-5350 .463 127-478 .266 1446-2166 .668 2.2 5.4 7.6 1.25 2.34 2.47 2.96 2.9 14.3
Suck on this!
June 2nd, 2010
9:24 am
What ever center we get he will be our STARTING CENTER! So trade I cant block shots horford.
By the way. I wish you well on your prostrate cancer ken. You and I disagree, but I do wish you well as a person.
Big Ray
June 2nd, 2010
9:26 am
Dang, the canniblogging is fierce in here, LOL.
Ayatollah sounds like somebody who has paid attention to the Woody Wars….can’t say I disagree with much he says…
Ramon
How is it that Sund has more resources than Knight had? Unless the owners are lying to us (and all the media quotes), they’ve been losing money out the a$$ all this time. Speaking of resources, Billy Knight had the draft as a major one. If you ask me, Knight had more resources than Sund has had.
It took Knight more than two years to start trying to fire Woody. He never succeeded, and even got himself pushed out the door. Sund on the other hand, was smarter about it. He gave Woody (clearly somebody whom the owners favored if they didn’t let Knight fire him) a 2 year extension and a lot of what he wanted on the roster. Then, when Woody proved he could only go so far with it, Sund successfully removed him from the picture.
I really don’t see how Knight had less resources and was a better GM. Sund has been here less time, and only had one draft. We can compare draft results and free agency moves.
DRAFT:
Knight-
Out of 15 draft picks, only two turned out really well for us: Al Horford and Josh Smith. Childress turned out well, but Woody botched part of that job, then Sund gambled and lost him. Diaw hated playing for Woodson, and turned into part of a large package deal for Joe Johnson. Marvin Williams was the highest pick Billy had with this team, and he has become a default rotation player. Good luck finding who to blame between Billy, Woody, and Marvin himself on that one…
Rick Sund-
Jeff Teague (jury is out, gets to actually have a rookie season now), Sergei Gladyr (pick stashed overseas, may never even join the team). I think I’d give Sund a few more chances at the draft (he’s only had ONE with this team) and some higher picks before trying to compare him to Knight. In addition, the draft is the cheapest way to add to the team….
Free agency-
Billy Knight – Tyronne Lue, Speedy Claxton, Anthony Johnson, Lorenzen Wright, Zaza Pachulia, Mike Bibby, and some scrubs like Slava Medvedenko, Matt Freijie, etc…
Rick Sund- re-upped Zaza, Bibby, and Marvin. Jamal Crawford, Mo Evans, Flip Murray, Joe Smith, RandMo, among the notables.
Again, I’d give Sund a little longer before drawing the line between the two. Sund has not had the advantage of the draft at all, really hard to compare notes there.
However, this summer will go a long ways in determining what he’s made of. I wouldn’t want his job, but I’m sure glad that some on this blog don’t have it…
Big Ray
June 2nd, 2010
9:28 am
Astro Joe
June 2nd, 2010
9:36 am
Other than Teague, name a 1st round pick that did not get time during his rookie season under Woody?
Even Acie received PT during the first half of his rookie season (when he didn’t have a back, wrist or hang-nail injury), until Bibby arrived and then he was able to discuss injuries with Speedy on the bench.
Go back and look at Salim’s rookie season (and he was a 2nd round pick). Look at Shelden, Josh, Josh, Marvin and Al as rookies. There’s a pattern.
Then read MC’s comments that “Teague struggled with team concepts” and it seems somewhat plausible that maybe, just maybe, Teague’s mental approach to the game had something to do with his playing time. Oh and I’ll add the recent radio interview with Sund who indicated that he asked Woody to play Teague during home games and that he was satisfied with the way Teague was used this past season. And presumably, Sund and Pendergraph have a little better insight into what happens in practice than anyone around here. The good news is that if Teague did have some issues from the neck up, that can be addressed over time. There’s no need to write him off but there may have been a legit reason why rewarding him with PT would have not been in his best long-term interests. If he returns with an understanding that pro ball requires more than athletic ability (or else you become Gerald Green), then that would have been a great rookie lesson to learn.
Ken Strickland
June 2nd, 2010
9:41 am
RAMON-I’m certain you’ve noticed that Sund isn’t a confrontational type GM like BK was. Rather than dictate what he wanted from Woodson, he gave him a 2yr extension, the players he wanted, room to operate, and the rope to hang himself, which he ended up doing. We’re in agreement on everything else. And, we can’t blame BK for not drafting either CP3 or DWilliams, since it was Woodson, not BK, who publicly stated his doubts about their ability to be productive at the NBA level.
As far as Teague’s attitude, he entered training camp and preseason with that attacking attitude, and was outstanding in both instances. We saw the same attitude and outstanding performance from ALaw and SStaudemire when they entered training camp and preseason. It was Woodson’s attitude and approach that caused their attitude and approach to change, as well as affect their overall confidence.
I definitely like the idea of signing Brewer, or even DWilkins, but I don’t think we have much chance of getting BHeywood. Dallas wants him back, and he knows he has a solid chance of replacing EDampier as their starting center. There’s no chance of him replacing AHorford, unless JSmith is traded. You don’t trade a young, talented, athletic, still improving and maturing talent like Smoove just to acquire a past his prime center who hasn’t equaled the performance of your current center.
Horford’s career scoring average of 12PPG is higher than Heywood’s highest single season scoring average of 10.2PPG. Heywood has a higher blocked shot average, but that’s due in part to him playing on teams with very porous DEF’s. Horford’s shot blocking total has been affected by him having to play out of position, like being forced to play PG’s and SG’s on the perimeter in Woodson’s beloved Bibby hiding switching DEF.
Hawkfan
June 2nd, 2010
9:41 am
Sign and trade JJ for Okafor /Chandler/ or Noah to move Horford to the 4. If you draft Alabi then you trade Zaza
Teague/ Crawford
Crawford/ Childress or M. Evans
Marvin/ Childress or M. Evans/ J. Smoove
J.Smoove/ Horford/ Marvin/ Zaza or Alabi
Horford/ (Okafor, Chandler. or Noah) Zaza or Alabi
2 years from now if Alabi turns to be a player then you trade Horford unless J. Smoove is still a baby and then we can’t blame coaching
darrell starks
June 2nd, 2010
9:48 am
Najeh davenpoop monta ellis want out of goldenstate he just sold his home out there and bought his new home in memphis, so why not do a sign and trade for him goldenstate already have a point guard and there are some must changes out there, maybe marvin and zaza for monta ellis can make the cut who noes but the hawks have make a strong decision on teague there is a big Q mark there.
GO HAWKS!!!!!
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!
Ramon
June 2nd, 2010
9:53 am
Ken, one question, do you remember what the salary of the roster was when BK arrived? Do you remember BK was brought in to REBUILD the entire roster, and that’s exactly what he did. You say it took him longer to fire Woody, that’s because Woody is a good REBUILDING coach, but BK realized that he wouldn’t be anything more than a rebuilding coach. Among the good things BK did, he refrained from making many bad signings (with the exception of Speedy). Remember Kenyon Martin, Eddy Curry, Dalembert, Dampier, Ray Allen, Chandler, and many others who came along and BK refused to give the keys to the franchise just to sign them because they weren’t worth it (although many on this blog thought they were). And once the JJ trade happened, and Belkin started rebuking the rest of the ownership, you seen the Hawks on ESPN more for court proceedings than you did for basketball. And if you remember for two entire seasons, the Hawks couldn’t make any trade or signings that would increase the payroll by a certain percentage without Belkin signing off on it. Now Sund only has to get approval from Gearon, and everything is ok.
I will say this though, the biggest mistake I think BK ever made wasn’t in the draft, but it was in trading Rasheed Wallace. Wallace would’ve just had to be mad at me because I would’ve kept him for the remainder of the season and tried to re-sign him.
Ken Strickland
June 2nd, 2010
9:56 am
THANKS TRUTH SERUM-You are living proof that when the chips are down, Hawk fans will always turn things around, THANKS.
ASTRO JOE-you brought up a good point. In every case, except for Horford, JChildress and JSmith, rookies regressed after their rookie yr under Woodson. At least those who actually got a chance to play.
darrell starks
June 2nd, 2010
9:58 am
Marvin and zaza for ellis is a good trade for both team, marvin and zaza could starte day one.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!
allan in texas
June 2nd, 2010
10:00 am
There is a rumor out there that Minnesota is willing to move the #4 pick with Al Jefferson for a proven veteran. Would you be willing to move Josh Smith and our #1 pick for Jefferson and their #1 pick?
Ramon
June 2nd, 2010
10:00 am
Ken we agree on most that you stated. I realize Haywood probably would be too hard to sign. The only problem is if the Hawks make a push for Haywood quickly, would Dallas be too involved in negotiations with Dirk to be able to react? Also, I would never want Haywood to start. I don’t think the Hawks need a starting center. I think the Hawks needs a defensive center who can come in 20-30 minutes a game. If Pryzbilla was healthier during the season, then I’d be screaming out his name.
Ramon
June 2nd, 2010
10:03 am
Allan, one word – NO! A front line of Al and Jefferson would be too stiff on the front line. And Jefferson really isn’t all that athletic to match up with Dwight Howard anyway. I’d move Crawford, Zaza, and our 1st for Jefferson and the 4th pick.
Crash001
June 2nd, 2010
10:27 am
Here is the solution: Sign JJ and trade him and ZAZA to free up salary cap space. Sign a free agent that can help the team and resign Randolp Morris, he a good player but was poorly coach.
O'Brien
June 2nd, 2010
10:30 am
Ramon,
I don’t think there is any way Dallas lets Haywood leave. Mark Cuban will pay him to stay (Dampier is an expiring, and only partially guaranteed), so Haywood will be the starter. If he comes here, he will be the backup.
And keep in mind that Rick Sund usually takes his own (slow) time anyway, so I don’t see Sund making any moves until the JJ situation is resolved. Plus if JJ leaves in a sign and trade, he wont be sure what he can get in return. And if JJ stays, I hope Sund explores trading Crawford.
For those calling for Siler, I think Dexter Pittman in the second round is a better selection. Pittman played at a big time program (Texas), and looked decent (when he wasn’t fouling out, or being too tired). If he gets his weight and endurance under control, he could provide spot minutes at Center.
Maurice Cheeks (former sixers HC and now an assistant with OKC) is available too. Anyone interested? Regardless of who we hire, I just hope he has an experienced group of assistants, and I hope he is flexible.
Ramon
June 2nd, 2010
10:40 am
O’Brien, I hope Sund considers signing everyone not named Horford and Josh.
i_am_soulstar
June 2nd, 2010
10:43 am
Everyone’s talking about a starting center, but is Josh Smith moving to small forward really a great idea?
With his average ball-handling and below average jumpshot, I wasn’t so sure at first. But then I began to think, wouldn’t he be an upgrade over Marvin Williams? I could go either way with one. But this only works if Joe comes back, considering our offensive output may drop a bit with Josh playing out of the post, as he’s likely to take more low percentage shots.
Still, the Hawks probably should make a run at Haywood. Not that I actually agree that Horford isn’t an above average center, but we can infer from his comments that the guy just doesn’t seem happy to be playing center. And like the saying goes, always take care of those who take care of you. The last thing any team needs is an unhappy star. Those teams usually don’t perform so well.
i_am_soulstar
June 2nd, 2010
10:47 am
Great point Astro Joe.
Rod from College Park
June 2nd, 2010
10:59 am
Thanks Big Ray and O’Brien. I have no idea what game Rufus1 is watching. I do recall Hinrich guarding MArvin in the post this year, and being successful.
i_am_soulstar
June 2nd, 2010
11:00 am
We’re already have “middle of the pack” status when it comes to defense. Can’t quite afford to lose Josh just yet folks.
The guy’s PER always hovers around #20 in the league. I’m not ready to say goodbye to that.
Dr. D.
June 2nd, 2010
11:00 am
Michael, is it possible that Sund is waiting for Dallas to come knocking for Joe? The Hawks could trade Joe & Bibby for Dampier and Caron Butler. Of course Dampier’s contract would be voided and leave the hawks with cap space to grab a combo guard (mike miller/anthony morrow). Next, they could try and trade J. Crawford for a draft pick and acquire a young big in the draft. With the 24th draft pick select Dominique Jones/Terrico White and improve their perimeter defence. Does any of this make GM logic?
Rod from College Park
June 2nd, 2010
11:03 am
i_am_soulstar,
Yes regarless of what everyone says about Josh and his jumpshot, he would be a tremendous upgrade over Marvin at the 3. It’s not a perfect situation for him, but he would be an upgrade. He has better handles than Marvin. I can’t recall Marvin driblling more than 3 to 4 times without passing or falling down. He would be better at everything other than free-throw shooting and long jumpshots.