Atlanta Hawks: Attention on centers

I wonder if we can package a deal that could send Josh Smith and Josh Childress for Amare Stoudamire.

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Just send Josh Smith to Orlando for Marcin Gortat & Brandon Bass. Gortat wants to start and Bass wants more playing time as well. Atlanta has their true center for 4 more years and a legit backup PF for 3 more years. If its not even, draft picks can be involved.

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And I would sign Channing Frye in a heartbeat – I know he’s not big and physical for and NBA Center, but the guy can play.

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Cdog . . to illustrate your point, I’ll remind these people of the guys we could’ve acquired last year

* Let’s start with Mr. Crawford. A great pickup by Sund. But we didn’t HAVE to trade for that dude. Crawford improved us definitely, but we weren’t winning a title with that squad last year, unless he and JJ played like superstars. And remember, Acie and Speedy would’ve been expiring contracts going into this summer. So let’s say we DON’T do the Crawford deal.

* This is for you Najeh . . . instead of Teague, the guy we could’ve had was DEJUAN BLAIR . . the exact type of bulky rebounder you’re talking about. Blair was a top 10 – 15 pick who freefalled through the draft because all of these NBA GMs are idiots . . with the exception of San Antonio . . who had sense enough to take dude in the 2nd round.

* So what do we do for a PG? How about going out to get Andre Miller . . the penetrating, pass-first, decent defending PG that we so desperately need here. How about renouncing the rights to Chill and Bibby ( whose cap hold last summer was JJ-like ), and make a run at Dre? You think he would’ve loved to run the point in ATL, with JJ as a shooter, and Smoove as a finisher to pass the ball to?

* How about Marvin? Remember . . he was a RESTRICTED FREE AGENT last summer. We didn’t have to offer him a deal ( even though most Hawk fans agreed that the 5yr deal for 38 mill was a “fair deal” for Marvin ). We could’ve let him play for the Qualifying Offer of 7 mill . . or waited until someone gave him an offer sheet.

* Zaza was the one guy we probably HAD to hold onto, but he was an unrestricted free agent, and we could’ve sent him walking too. But say we keep Zaza for the same price.

* So now we have the MLE to maybe add additional people. Oh . . I don’t know. Maybe bring in Jerry Stackhouse? Bring back Flip Murray? Juan Dixon ( who should’ve made the squad )? Maybe a box office draw like Allen Iverson ( who was desperate to play for SOMEBODY )?

Decide on 2 players to split the MLE on.

Sund had all kinds of options last summer. So for whatever moves he made or didn’t make, that’s on HIM.

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So let’s set the team for 2009 – 10

G – Miller ( 4yrs – 28 to 30 million )
G – JJ ( expiring contract – 15 million )
F – Marvin ( expiring contract – 7 million )
F – Smoove
F/C – Horford

Bench

G – Law ( expiring contract – if we don’t pick up team option – 2 million )
G – Stackhouse or Iverson or Flip ( 1yr – 2 to 2.5 million )
F – Evans ( ability to opt out in 2010 – 2.5 mill off the books if he does )
F – Dejuan Blair
C – Zaza

G – Speedy ( expiring contract – 5 million )
C – Morris ( expiring contract – 900K )

****************

I’ll say that this squad right here could’ve at least obtained the 4th spot in the East, and possibly won 47 – 51 games. We’d still lose in the 2nd round, due to the lack of a quality big man. But we’d be in MUCH BETTER POSITION for the 2010 free agency period, depending on what we wanted to do with the expiring contracts.

But the Crawford signing, combined with holding on to Chill, is really the thing that’s keeping us from making a major play for one of these free agents, should JJ sign elsewhere.

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Isn’t it funny how Los Angeles Lakers are in the NBA Finals. And they have one of the highest payrolls in the league. Yet, they’ve emerged as the favorites to sign Chris Bosh. I think the Hawks should be aggressive in going after one of the big free agents and seeing about a sign and trade deal. Crawford’s expiring deal would be perfect in making the deal happen. Also why isn’t JJ lobbying to try and get another big ticket free agent to come and visit the Hawks? As it’s been said many times, if you take the big tickets off of their current roster, the remaining players on each team all come second to the Hawks without JJ. So out of the possible destinations, the Hawks are the closest to title contention. And they’re actually the only team that made it to the 2nd round.

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nc – with all due respect, your scenario was disjointed & diffuse.

Everyone’s all over the place tonite. Channing Frye says he wants
to stay in PHX.

Some fella last eve on pod-cast, suggested we “would” pkg.
Marv & Jamal sooner or *later *[trade deadline] for a *franchise
type player to pair with Joe. He would not elaborate as to
the caliber *[franchise] only saying ‘not’ Carmelo (caliber).
I gathered someone in the *O.J. Mayo category.
*Just a player of that caliber, not necessarily him. [Mayo]
A young up & coming, yet promising future all-star.

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cdog:

“BELIEVE ME, RICK SUND IS SUPER TERRIBLE.HE’S BEYOND BAD.”

cdog – I must disagree.
He’s done nothing, [here], to draw that malevolence.

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I mean damn . . we’re holding onto Josh Childress like he’s a collection of 17th century gold coins found on a pirate ship. If that dude doesn’t want to come back to us this year, and if Sund or the ASG don’t want to extend a multi-year contract to Chill . . THEN RENOUNCE THAT DUDE . . GET HIM OFF THE BOOKS.

No sense keeping “dead money” like that around for more than one season. Cut your losses and move on.

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Najeh, I’m struggling to see how Blair would’ve been better than Sheldon Williams. Now because he was drafted by the Spurs and came out ok, it seems like the Hawks could’ve taken him, but I don’t see it.

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“even though most Hawk fans agreed that the 5yr deal for 38 mill was a “fair deal” for Marvin ”

Based on last year’s production and the reasonable assumption that a 23-year-old would improve, it was a fair deal. What makes it such an atrocious looking deal right now is that Marvin got significantly worse this year. If he put up 15 and 6 on 46% shooting with good defense and 36% 3-point-shooting this year — a reasonable expectation based on his production from the last two seasons — his contract would be acceptable and movable.

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@ grandad . . . you are more than welcome to disprove anything I said in that scenario. Everything I said was very possible:

* we didn’t have to trade for Crawford, and kept the expiring contracts of Law and Speedy

* we could’ve drafted Dejuan Blair, to address our rebounding issues

* we could’ve renounced Chill, to get his 10 mill cap hold off the books

* we could’ve renounced Bibby to get his 15+ million cap hold off the books.

* we then could’ve been enough under the cap to make a serious play for Andre Miller to FINALLY address the PG position.

* we then could’ve brought back Zaza

* and with our MLE money, we could’ve signed 1, maybe 2 low priced free agents ( other than those scrubs Joe Smith and Jason Collins ). Blair would’ve made both of those guys obsolete.

* and when the summer of 2010 came around, we’d be in better position to compensate for the loss of JJ, by adding starter quality free agents.

That is as clear and concise as I can make this. If you want to dispute any of this, go right ahead.

If Woody was calling the shots behind the scenes personnel wise, and Sund was just going with the flow, the ASG should’ve just named Wooody as GM and never hired Sund.

We’ll see if this dude can make his money this year, without just going along with “Woody’s Plan”.

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The more I think about it, after my 11:41 post, when I used
OJ Mayo as an example, the more I liked the idea. People on
this board have brought up his name [Mayo] before and I haven’t
thought much about it, but now, he may be just the ticket.
With Joe, a running mate / wingman. They could play together
in the same backcourt [when Teaguer rests].
If Joe leaves, he gives Josh & Al an outside scoring threat
for balance.
I wonder if Memphis would turn him loose & do we have the
chips (Marv, Jamal, Childress, Bibby, Zaza, pkg.) that would
entice Memphis?

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nc – I didn’t say any of it was untrue, therefore,
no need to justify. I said it was diffuse. Too many
parts to untangle all @ once. If you’re looking @
Mr. Sund’s record and or accomplishments over the
short time he has been here and you are correcting
all his percieved mistakes then all that you said
is true to the extent that everything
he did and has accomplished were true as well.
History has not proven that he has not made
a mistake at this point so your counterpoint is
therefore also neither right or wrong.

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We should sign frye but we need to rebuild, point blank we cant win a championship with who we have period…… we need to trade joe and jamal for potential and picks.

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“G – Miller ( 4yrs – 28 to 30 million )
G – JJ ( expiring contract – 15 million )
F – Marvin ( expiring contract – 7 million )
F – Smoove
F/C – Horford

Bench

G – Law ( expiring contract – if we don’t pick up team option – 2 million )
G – Stackhouse or Iverson or Flip ( 1yr – 2 to 2.5 million )
F – Evans ( ability to opt out in 2010 – 2.5 mill off the books if he does )
F – Dejuan Blair
C – Zaza

G – Speedy ( expiring contract – 5 million )
C – Morris ( expiring contract – 900K )”

Here’s the problem with your scenario — and I know you’ll disagree — with Woody as the head coach, there’s no way this team tops 50 wins. Dre Miller can’t shoot 3’s, and with the iso-Joe offense, a point guard who can shoot 3’s is more important than a point guard who can, you know, do point guard things like driving inside and setting up teammates. (Let’s ignore for now that Bibby can’t really shoot consistently anymore either.) The Hawks had a hard enough time spacing the floor with Bibby and Crawford on the team; with neither one around, iso-Joe would fail even more often as Joe wouldn’t have room to drive or shooters to pass the ball to.

We already know Woody wasn’t going to play Acie, and we already know Zaza was mostly ineffective this year. We know Randolph Morris wouldn’t get playing time (and even if he did, there’s no guarantee he’d be effective), and we know Speedy is unreliable. Between Stackhouse, Iverson, and Flip, it’s most likely they would have kept Flip since he was on the team the previous year, and of course Mo Evans would have been there. Knowing Woody’s mixed track record with rookies, who knows whether he would have played Blair enough for him to make an impact — my guess is Blair would have been the 2nd big man off the bench behind Zaza, meaning his minutes and impact would have been limited.

So really, you’re looking at basically the same team that got swept by the Cavs last year, except with Miller replacing Bibby. Starting lineup would have been Miller, Joe, Marvin, Smoove, and Al, while Flip, Mo, and Zaza would get the lion’s share of any bench minutes with Blair likely receiving spot duty and the rest of them riding the pine. That’s a slight upgrade at point guard in terms of talent (not necessarily in terms of fit) and a significant downgrade on the bench. My guess is that team finishes with the same 46-47 wins they had the previous year, possibly falling behind Milwaukee to the 5th seed and losing in the first round.

Now it is definitely true that the Hawks would have more cap flexibility this offseason — about $7 million more. This would probably give them enough space to sign a max player, especially if they renounced Childress (assuming one wanted to sign here). But I don’t think there’s any way they make it to 50 wins or the 2nd round with that team.

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“No way does that dude get a pass for what happened last year, or the position we’re in this summer.”

I’ll co-sign this, but more than what he did last offseason, it’s what he does this offseason that will define his success or failure as the Hawks’ GM. If he keeps Joe and is able to add the big man and depth the Hawks need to reach the next level, or if he lets Joe walk and is able to pull off a trade (like the Crawford + bad contracts for Collison + bad contracts trade I keep bringing up) that addresses some of the Hawks’ weaknesses, his shortcomings last offseason will mostly be redeemed. If he can’t do this, we will be calling for his head.

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Najeh . . I agree somewhat about the squad overall. But Miller would’ve easily averaged at least 14 pts and 7 assists as PG for us.

The fallacy constantly stated on this board, is tha our offense consisted of nothing but ISO-JJ. You mak can say that for the bulk of the 4th quarter, but not the bulk of the game. Just because JJ served as the “bail out guy” when the shot clock runs down, doesn’t mean that he held the ball for 20 seconds, then decided to shoot. A lot of times, he got the ball back with 10 seconds, and was expected to make a play with the clock running down ( ala Brandon Roy in Portland ).

But back to Miller.

Woody has never had a capable PG who could break people down like a Miller, plus set people up. Woody has always been flexible with his vet PGs, and letting them do what they can do.

He had no problem letting Anthony Johnson run the show for a while. I never saw that alley-oop from the 3 point line that we run for Smoove via JJ, until AJ started doing it for Marvin on occasion.

The same went fo Bibby. When Bibby was healthy, he let Bibby run the team.

So there’s no doubt in my mind that Woody would let a proven PG like Miller do his thing as well. ISO-JJ wouldn’t disappear, but Miller would have us run more pick and rolls with our big men. That’s one of his strengths as a player, and Woody wouldn’t relegate him to playing off the ball.

JJ pretty much had to have the ball a lot, because he was the guy good enough to get his own shot as well as set people up. Woody would have no problem letting a vet like Dre run the show, because of his ability to get to the rim.

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SIGN AVERY AS THE COACH.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!

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SIGN FREE AGENT AL HARRINGTON.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!

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ever since sekou left, it’s just not the same around here:

1: randolph morris is not an NBA player, please don’t resign him – he quit on the game during high school; some one on here said he “dominated” the SEC and left school too early; his best season was his jr. year (06-07) where he averaged 16 and 8; a meager college career at best for a 3rd year player

2: a true starting point guard should be here regardless of if we resign JJ, but it shouldn’t be ANDRE MILLER OR KIRK HINRICH; both guys are unathletic and aren’t “true” point guards in the sense of the word; hinrich shoots 41.9% for his CAREER and only averages 4 assists for his CAREER (i repeat); miller can’t shoot 3’s (CAREER average 20.9% – pathetic) and is not as willing of a passer in his older years because he’s extremely lazy at this point in his career (less than 7 assists per game over the last 3 seasons as a starter and only a 7.2 CAREER average)

3: JEFF TEAGUE is the best solution we have at a true point guard (see his final game of the regular season against CLE minus LBJ) unless we can trade for darren collison/chris paul (highly unlikely) or some how ERIC BLEDSOE falls to us in the upcoming draft (he’s projected anywhere from 15th to 36th in 9 different mock drafts i’ve seen); ERIC BLEDSOE was the second highest rated guard in the country behind JOHN WALL, and played the 2 because he had to – unbelievable talent that we cannot pass up if he’s there; i believe MC just wrote an article about how the 24th spot won’t yield any long term fruit, but he obviously knows nothing about basketball (tony parker, manu ginobili, dejuan blair, gerald wallace, darren collison – ALL drafted 24th or lower in the last 10 yrs – and that’s just off the top of my head)

4: SIGN AND TRADE JJ for players that fill HIS role (a la JOHN SALMONS or RUDY GAY + other players, picks, or cash); OR, let JJ walk and sign a guy like RAY ALLEN to a 1 year deal at a higher price than other teams would be willing to pay him per season at his age.

5: MARK JACKSON is the most suitable replacement for taking this team to the NEXT LEVEL; we NEED to take a risk and not go the “safe route” here; we NEED a coach who is willing to work with the personnel we have and HELP them to believe in themselves as a TEAM; woody was a divider and MARK JACKSON can be a uniter if given a chance; remember, AVERY J. was at the right place at the right time in terms of being considered a “winning” coach; everyone knows he’s too overbearing for our guys – again, whether JJ resigns here or not; casey, or whomever else sund is considering do not fit the personality of our TEAM;

Believe me, we are a coach who commands respect (but is still player friendly) away from being a contender – again whether JJ signs here or not.

Now I’ll tell Mr. Sund & Gearon Jr. what they should do:

Let JJ walk and sign RAY ALLEN to an overpriced 1yr/10mil deal. He’s 80% of JJ at 33, and JJ won’t be as efficient as RAY RAY after 2 yrs on his max deal he’s about to sign. JESUS would also bring some class to our city for a moment. Go get a JOEL PRYZBILLA or a SHAQ at the midlevel to bring off the bench. Add a dead eye 3 point shooter or two (i know some one is out there who can shoot better than MO or CHILLS). Do something with CHILLS’ contract – ANYTHING! Hang BIBBY & ZAZA out on a billboard and pray some one’s dumb enough to take on their contracts for anything useful. We’d have tons of $ coming off the books after 2010-2011 season and be ready to pay BIG AL the following summer. We’d still be a top tier team, AND we’d be in a prime position to build for the future at the same time. Don’t trade SMOOVE!!! He may have motivational problems, but a new coach is going to change him. The dude played for a guy who is notorious for riding young players hard, and has improved his game each year, despite a lack of coaching or encouragement from the fans. A true point guard in the starting role will CHANGE the entire dynamic of this team. If you have horses, you NEED TO RUN THEM. We have horses!!! The reason MARVS looks like an idiot is because BIBBY AND JJ have dribbled out 90% of our shot clocks over the last 2 years. The other 10% of the time, we looked like we could beat anybody, anywhere – due to pure talent!! A respectable and likable coach, along with a few KEY personnel moves will solve the Atlanta Basketball quandry. We are sooooooo close, and yet we are a couple of idiotic moves from oblivion once again! Regardless of what actually happens, get ready for a WILD SUMMER HAWKS’ FANS….

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2010 ATLANTA HAWKS AVERY COACHING
STARTER MONTA ELLIS, JOE, CHILL, JOSH, HORFORD,
BENCH TEAGUE, JAMAL, MOE, AL HARRIGNTON, SOLOMON ALABI
RESERVE BIBBY, MORRIS.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!

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worst case scenario under my plan…

lineup:
PG – Teague
SG – Ray Ray, aka Jesus Shuttlesworth
SF – Marvs
PF – Smoove
C – Big Al

bench: crawford, shaq, bibs, bledsoe (hopefully), zaza, chills’ contract’s cap room, kyle korver, mike miller, and/or roger mason on the cheap cheap, brad miller or the first Big Z on the cheap cheap

this would put is between 64-69 million cap-wise.. depending on the salary cap next year, we could be looking nice under the right conditions.

personnel & chemistry + quality coaching, management & ownership = championship

Somebody save us from another heartless playoff ending!! We work too hard during the regular season to give up when it matters.. Just look where BOSTON is now.. that could’ve been us with the right coach.. that should’ve been the HAWKALIERS with the right coach.. where’s the DOC when you need him?? oh yeah, he’s in BOSTON.. and how bout that TOM THIBIDEAU – why not be seeking permission to interview him?? he’s player friendly, defensive minded and pretty much the co-coach on the team we beat 4 times this year that about to win their second title in 3 years.. i don’t want to bet against KOBE and PHIL, but the lakers are SOFT.. if BOSTON is healthy enough, they are hangin #18

peace, love & goodnite from the heart of Hawksville.

McHawkmick, aka blonju, aka the ghost of sekou smith

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Tony,

championship coaches aren’t sitting around waiting on the Hawks’ to find them… in the real world, THIBIDEAU might be the closest thing possible to what your looking for but could end up being the second coming of woody… i agree that Sund’s track record does not provide a true fan with much hope for the right championship ‘tweaks’ being made… sometimes, a championship coach has to be made… or perhaps you are right?! maybe we need to go find RUDY TOMJONAVICH?!?! i’m pretty sure popovich, zenmaster, larry brown, doc rivers and pat riley are the only coaches to win titles in the last 20 years, besides TOMJONAVICH.. whoa, that’s startling just to say it out loud.. before that it was late Chuck Daly with the 89-90 pistons… anyways, you couldn’t be more right about championship management & coaches… and honestly, unless Rick Sund grows a huge pair of testicles and a brain, the Falcons and Braves have MUCH better chances of bringing ATL a title… it’s sad, but true Hawks’ fans… i’m too much of a fan to ever give up, but to quote the computer in “I ROBOT” – my logic is undeniable… and so is tony’s… ANYWAYS, i’m a die hard fan, so GO HAWKS!!!!

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@ blonju:

1) Agreed . . . Randolph Morris is garbage for the most part.

2) Miller doesn’t waste time shooting a lot of 3 point jumpers, because he’s trying to get to the rim . . which is exactly what we need at the PG position. A guy who can get to the rim and FINISH . . unlike young Mr. Teague. LOL @ scoffing at a 7.2 career assist average. You can maybe name 4 other guys in the league who can say they have dished out 7 assist + for their entire career ( Paul, Deron, Kidd, Nash ). Great . . let’s put the hopes of the Hawks on Teague, based off of his great performance vs the Cleveland scrubs in the final game of the season. Makes perfect sense.

3) Teague is only the best option, if he can prove he can get it done. If not, you’ll see a lot of Crawford at the 1, and Bibby backing him up, even with the new coach.

4) JJ has the power in a sign and trade, because he can choose where he wants to go. I can guarantee you that it will not be Milwaukee. And it’ll only be Memphis if he doesn’t want max money, and desperately wants to stay close to home. We just can’t sign and trade JJ to whomever WE want him to go. JJ has the final say-so in a sign and trade.

5) It’s amazing how many people want basketball commentators who have never been head coaches in their lives, to coach the Hawks. Talk about setting the bar low. Fan logic = “Smitty says that Marvin should shoot quicker . . OMG . . I think that too!! . . let’s make him our new coach”

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