Atlanta Hawks: Another Way With J.J.
While breaking down the Hawks’ options concerning J.J. and free agency, I mentioned in passing that the Hawks could gain a trade exception and perhaps a draft pick in a sign-and-trade with a team under the salary cap. Aaron, a moderator at Hawksquawk.net, emailed to say he thinks the exception (acquired in what’s known as a “non-simultaneous trade”) could be more beneficial than initially meets the eye:
“The traded player exception (TPE) the Hawks would get by trading him to a team under the cap would be extremely useful in future trades. It’s very possible that the Hawks could move Joe to somewhere like Chicago for a TPE and then turn around and use the TPE to acquire a replacement wing. Just off the top of my head, someone like Corey Maggette would definitely fit the mold of an available scoring wing. (Not sure how he’d feel about Crawford, but it’s just a thought). Joe wouldn’t mind because it wouldn’t affect his bottom line in a negative way, and the team receiving him would definitely be interested because it lowers his initial salary, thereby increasing the salary space they have to pursue complimentary players.”
(What he means by the lower initial salary is that because of the larger future raises available to a Bird Rules free agent, J.J.’s first-year salary would be lower in a sign-and-trade than in a straightforward signing.)
Good point by Aaron, and one that’s actually illustrated by the example I used in the post: Seattle’s sign-and-trade of Rashard Lewis to Orlando in 2008 for a $9 million trade exception and a second-round pick. In a non-simultaneous, a team can acquire up to 100 percent of the salary sent out plus $100,00 with any difference built up as a sort of credit known as a trade exception. Since draft picks have $0 value in trades until the player signs a rookie contract, the Hawks could get a pick and also get the full value of J.J.’s new contract as an exception and acquire a player(s) in a future trade (the limit is a year) without the requirement of matching salaries.
Typically, teams willing to trade a player without receiving a player in return tend to be teams looking to trim payroll and/or get out from under a contract (Maggette, to use Aaron’s example, has 3 years and $30.8 million left on his deal). And that’s pretty much what happened to the Sonics: they used the $9 million exception to acquire Kurt Thomas from the Suns, who were looking to shed payroll and gained an $8 million trade exception.
But the Sonics also got two first-round draft picks in that deal and later dealt Thomas to the Spurs for another first-round pick and a couple of expiring contracts. (That sequence of deals is one of the many examples of why Michael Gearon Jr.’s disdain for “bad contracts” can be a tad overstated: in the NBA, there’s almost always a way to move players for something of value even if it requires some short-term pain.)
So Aaron is right that a trade exception could be no small thing. The Hawks likely wouldn’t be able to get a comparable player to J.J., or might have to take on an burdensome contract do so, but it would provide more possibilities than simply using the mid-level, bi-annual and minimum-salary exceptions to plug the hole.
– The latest on the Hawks coaching search: Dwane Casey is set for another interview, Avery Johnson’s desire for personnel power has been overstated, Larry Drew is being considered and Mark Jackson appears to be a long shot. Rick Sund apparently hasn’t even narrowed down his initial list of candidates to a leading group.
MC
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348 comments Add your comment
Rod from College Park
May 25th, 2010
3:53 pm
northcyde,
I agree with you that Josh can go stronger to the hole, but that has nothing to do with being soft. But to compare him to Marvin in that light is disrespectful. As cp said Josh probably has more dunk attempts in his first two years in the league than Marvin has completed dunks in his whole career. Josh simply needs to work on his touch around the basket, as his high flying, rim rattling days are behind him. There is no better guy to help him with that than Nique.
O'Brien
May 25th, 2010
3:57 pm
Didn’t the hawks have a chance to sign Von wafer for cheap sometime ago?
If we resign JJ, I hope mo Evans opts out, because he is better suited for a backup SG. And that would free up $2.5 mil or so.
if w lose JJ, then I would be okay with Mo in our SG rotation. But I would like to see us go after JJ Redick too.
Bobby
May 25th, 2010
4:10 pm
Its just now hitting me Woody is gone. A guy that did what few coaches in hawks history have done by having 3 straight playoff apperances.Remember those lucky pair of drawers that you hated to through away Man i hope those drawers wasn’t Woody………Grandad with a post at 2:31 am after midnite.Remember Viagra causes hearing lost.
Grandad
May 25th, 2010
4:22 pm
I MUS WRITE:
As much as I would hate to give up Josh,
I would do this trade as well. Howevever,
NBA trade machine didn’t allow it.
Adjusted:
*Chi. gets – Josh [alone]
*We get Noah + Hinrich / *works
I would do this also – doubt Chicago would?
Clever – if they would do it !!!
cp
May 25th, 2010
4:24 pm
Yea they did O’Brien and like with Stackhouse they chose not to. I like Reddick but I don’t know if the Hawks will be able to pay him. With not much under the cap the Hawks will have to find bargains once again. I think there will be a few talented young guys available who will not cost the team that much and will be able to contribute. We just have to see if Sund will be crafty enough to find those guys. I like Amir Johnson and Wafer. Haslem would be nice too but I doubt he wants to leave Miami. He would be that tough guy that we are sorely missing.
Grandad
May 25th, 2010
4:24 pm
I MUS WRITE – *Whoops forgot to include your trade proposal !!!
“I dont know if the numbers work but I would offer Josh/Bibby/24th pick
for
Noah/Heinrich”
northcyde
May 25th, 2010
4:44 pm
Jody . . . I’m not denying who made the call to draft Marvin. What I’m saying is that those national sportswriters and bloggers didn’t have a clue about this, until WE the fans started talking about it recently. Most of the hardcore fans have always known that Woody perferred Marvin over Paul, because Woody had reservations about Paul’s size.
I don’t believe a single word that those national writers say about us, unless I see it via the local writers or from some of you bloggers who know the situation in and out.
LOL . . these are the same people that, up until 2008, thought that Josh Smith played SF and Marvin played PF for us.
Grandad
May 25th, 2010
5:04 pm
Najeh:
Thanks so much for the link *[Battier / Article].
I didn’t get a chance to read it until this AM.
For a B-ball lover it was music to my ears;
as Chopin or `Wagner would be to a composer.
W/O going back , I reckon O’B had knowledge
of Morey’s love for SB as well. I knew, from reading
‘Simmons’, a bit about Morey & his “moneyball” approach.
In a way it pisses me off that a stat guy can
delineate knowledge w/o actually knowing the game
from the inside. But, he has discovered clues to the “secret”.
- vava –
needs to read this article, he will enjoy it immensely.
As I said last evening ‘Battier’ has been my favorite player
since ‘Duke’. He may surpass ‘Rodman’ as my all-time favorite.
“Guys that make their teammates better”
Good subject:
Who on the Hawks???
Honestly none readily jump into my mind – I’ll think on it.
i_am_soulstar
May 25th, 2010
5:16 pm
It’s time to give up on Marvin. It’s like sticking around with that girlfriend that keeps cheating on you, hoping she’ll change.
Grandad
May 25th, 2010
5:21 pm
northcyde + everone else [Jody] / put it to bed !
Marvin was considered the # 1 talent / choice in the draft that yr.
Mil. picked Bogut or we would have picked him. It was agreed by “all”
that if we picked a point guard – it was going to be D.Williams.
C.Paul had slipped because of the “crotch punch” & there was
‘Attitude’ or intangible questions [unfounded of course].
People [revisionists] forget all this. Marv was gonna be the
next KG. Vitale was the 1st one to criticize the Hawks for not
taking Paul. What does it matter – Knight & Woodson are gone.
A worse choice was Sheldon @ 5 rather than trade down to Houston
@ 10 which wanted to trade. Then we could have taken Rondo.
Quit hypothosizing about stuff that didnt happen & don’t matter
.anyway
Grandad
May 25th, 2010
5:23 pm
i_am_soulstar:
*bane – That’s a bad thing – right?
Ken Strickland
May 25th, 2010
5:41 pm
GRANDAD-now you’re starting to get scary. I honestly thought I’d get no response, or maybe a negative response, from someone that really didn’t know much about him. Then you tell me you have the same opinion about him that I have. Too me, he’d be the perfect backup to Horford. They’re both high energy, physical, athletic, aggressive, and they both run the floor very well.
TERRELL-I meant to indicate that CMaggette would be an option only if JJ didn’t resign. However, if the ASG would be willing to sign him as well, I’d go with it. Washington trading their #1 pick wouldn’t be the ideal situation for them, but they are in a precarious situation with GArenas. I don’t see them drafting Wall unless they can get rid of Arenas and his monstrous contract, which is doubtful.
I also don’t see them drafting Wall with Arenas still on their roster. If Arenas felt threatened by Crittenton, how do you think he’d feel about Wall? You never know, if they like the idea of having Smoove over anyone available in the draft, they just might be intrigued enough to make the deal happen, especially with them already having Arenas. Of course, if the deal has to involve a 3rd team, it might take another player to make it work.
You said you’d like to have Collison from New Orleans. Well, so would I, but I’m not certain Teague couldn’t duplicate his 12.1PPG, 5.7APG, 1SPG and 2.5RPG, if given the same consistent 27+MPG, along with support and encouragement from the sidelines. Since their salaries are virtually identical, I would, however, consider taking a long look at trading JSmith(10.8M) straight up for Okafor(10.798M).
If JJ doesn’t resign, and we can do a S&T with him, I’d go after CMaggette. A front line of Maggette, Okafor and Horford, along with Crawford and Teague in the back court would be solid. Our bench would be Zaza-C, Marvin-SF, Bibby-SG/PG, Morris-PF/C, draft pick, Evans-SG/SF, and FA.
Grandad
May 25th, 2010
6:04 pm
Ken Strickland:
“I know everything there is to know
about the greatest game ever invented”
Wilbur ‘Shooter’ Flatch
“Hoosiers”
That…..^…..would sound arrogant if I really thought it !
Good call on ‘Didier’.
Grandad
May 25th, 2010
6:07 pm
KS – Unless I’m mistaken, he’s unrestricted this summer.
I MUS WRITE
May 25th, 2010
6:15 pm
Northcyde- One dunk is a tiny sample size my man, That guy who dunked on Powe is long gone. I was really hoping for Marvin to become something special,but reality has set in. marvin gave us absolutely nothing this year and he is as timid as a school girl. No excuse for getting blocked 2-3 times a game. Shawn Kemp is somewhere laughing hiz azz off. Marvin Williams LMFAO- borderline scrub and no a coaching change wont help.
Compairing Marvin to Josh is like compairing My first car
(75 Buick Electra 225) to a Ferrari……. No Comparison
Grandad- Whass up witcha, It would be even better to send just josh for Heinrich/Noah….. Im a huge noah fan and theres nothing i want to see more than him and Horford terrorizing other teams- I would miss smoove but we would be better in the long run im sure.
The Truth- Siler is putting up respectable numbers over there i just hope the front office is keeping an eye on him. Seriously tho-Could he have been any worst than Cheeseburger Collins. Siler and Morris over collins and joe smith all day. Where is the leadership and outside shooting smith was supposed to bring to the team-I didnt see him hit many jumpers this year. Im willing to bet that he less than 25 for the season Which totally stinks .
In limited time Morris was okay,he showed some nice post moves and a soft touch around the rim -maybe the new coach can get him and Siler to play physical off the bench. GOON SQUAD
Also 2 years ago everybody went crzy when i mentioned trading Josh for Amare…………..Uhhhm lets here it -tell me How Josh is a better player than Amare again -other than shot blocking. 23/9 the numbers dont lie.
We need a vet pg as well Bibby was horrible this year. I wish we could trade him for maybe Kyle lowery or Raymond Felton.
northcyde
May 25th, 2010
6:21 pm
Why would anyone want to trade Smoove for Okafor? He was a worse statistical center than David Lee was last year.
I MUS WRITE
May 25th, 2010
6:24 pm
Nothcyde “As athletic as Smoove is, when is the last time you saw him catch a rebound in the air and dunk it? That’s not his game, even if it should be. For him to get to that next level as a PF, he has to play MUCH STRONGER, than what he plays currently”
Did you miss the Orlando game? put back dunk with .01 on the clock
terrell
May 25th, 2010
6:25 pm
CP, look who was coaching Wafer in Houston, and look who we had on the bench.
I MUS WRITE
May 25th, 2010
6:26 pm
Agreed Okafor is garbage and I want him far away from this team.
terrell
May 25th, 2010
6:30 pm
Ken, Josh Smith for Okafur? Be careful what you ask for. lol!
terrell
May 25th, 2010
6:32 pm
Imus, Felton is a FA.
Navigator
May 25th, 2010
6:37 pm
Good ole Marvin, got a high draft pick and lots of money based on one game, the NCAA Championship. Otherwise his career was very average, and of course the Hawks couldn’t wait to draft him just like Goose Givens (KY) who also had an outstanding championship (44 points), and the Hawks grabbed him to, but at least he had a career to back it up. As far as the Hawks making a run with J.J. versus not without him, forget it, they don’t make a run with this roster.
Ramon
May 25th, 2010
6:38 pm
Maggette is a great athlete and basketball player. My fear is that he’s cut from the same cloth as Vince Carter though. Majority of the gyms he walks in he will be the best athlete in there and have unlimited potential that he will never reach. I’ve never seen Maggette fight for a game. And he may have it in him, but I’m not sure I’d be willing to take that chance with that much left on his contract. I probably would try and see if there’s any chance Houston would take Chill’s rights and Zaza for Ariza, or maybe Bibby and Chill’s rights for Ariza, along with a draft pick.
Ramon
May 25th, 2010
6:41 pm
I MUS WRITE, I think they missed the Houston game also when Smoove had the buzzer beeter on a rebound put back. Or what about the AMAZING reverse putback he had against Miami on last season.
robdawg08
May 25th, 2010
6:50 pm
No benefit for JJ to sign and accept a trade unless it is to a contender and a contender ain’t giving up good players in return. Face it, Hawks are not going to be that good because of awful contracts and salary cap. But a player (JJ) that doesn’t need fans doesn’t deserve to be in the NBA anyway and especially not on the Hawks.
cp
May 25th, 2010
6:51 pm
terrell when you put it that way about Wafer then yea you have a great point lol.
Ramon
May 25th, 2010
6:51 pm
I wonder what it would take for the Hawks to acquire Rafer Alston.
bigdave
May 25th, 2010
7:03 pm
i suggested a play for Rafer Alston during the regular season.. ill pass now.
Grandad
May 25th, 2010
7:04 pm
I MUS WRITE:
I’m with you on Noah. He plays with unbridled passion.
Sounds like I’m writin’ one o’ them romance novels.
Lowry & Felton = unrestricted.
K-Dogg
May 25th, 2010
9:10 pm
Yeah good idea guys lets trade a top 15 player and 4 time all-star thats not 30 for Cory Mcnugget and a futre un-proven draft player and see if we can stay a 50 win team!!!! Yall must have gone to the billy Knight school of GM’s!!!!!!!!!! If we have to trade Joe we may as well do like the raptors are doign with Bosh and try to break a team. They asking the lakers for Gasol or Bynum and Shannon Brown but Hawks fans say Lou Dang and Corey Mcnugget go figure!!!
K-Dogg
May 25th, 2010
9:14 pm
knowledge Quest why do you want to trade Horford if you have yet to see him play his natural postion??? If you were playing Chris Paul at the 2 and he was still balling like Horford is i guess you would just trade him too if his natural postion is point guard!! Trade Big Al huh a guy thats a leader with a post game and Mid range game and Keep josh a guy who does not want to post, cant shot and does not give max effort when things dont go his way is 6′7 power forward and a knee injury away from being useless!!! (Not trying to Jinx the man but basketball players knees are the 1st to go) Good call Quest!!!!!
Ramon
May 25th, 2010
9:19 pm
Sorry, but I am tired of the debate of who to trade over Josh and Al (although I’d keep Josh). I’d be willing to trade ANYONE on the lineup right now except for those two!
K-Dogg
May 25th, 2010
9:21 pm
Why do yall hate Marvin so much! Billy Knight passed on CP3 not Marvin. To me he is the best role player on the squad! He kncoks down open shots defends and hit the boards and when you call his number can get to the free throw line. Like i always say go back last year when guys were out and he was getting 25 when his number was called. Yall quick to down a guy who get about 5 shots a game and never gets his number called the more i think about Woddy really was dumb b/c he had alot of talented guys that we never even tried to get involved on offense. If yall think Josh Childress goign to come back thats even funnier to me! Good look trying to tell a man who would rather go overseas to anotehr country and play for us that “Now Josh we need you” I will tell yall for him “Go **** yourself Rick Sund!!! We had two chances to keep him.
K-Dogg
May 25th, 2010
9:26 pm
To me ramon its a no brainer! Tell me this Ramon if Josh has a knee issue and it limits his ablity to be explosive what will he be able to do to help this team??????
Trade him while he has value if you lose him you dont lose much.
eastlaketb
May 25th, 2010
9:28 pm
Any chance that we could go Orlando back- up center?
K-Dogg
May 25th, 2010
9:31 pm
Im sure we could try but i dont think they trade him to us in teh divsion knowing that he could help make us better then them.
K-Dogg
May 25th, 2010
9:38 pm
Im outta here guys that fast but i have said it once and will say it until we do it we cant keep the same small front line and expect to beat the Lakers, Cavs and Magic if everything stays the same this summer! Everyone on our team that starts does have value and on the cool i would not trip if either one was moved(Altough i want to see Big Al play one year at the 4) but if yall think Al and Josh are going to get it done vs those teams even though over the last 3 years we like 4-35 vs those teams then yall truly dont have a clue and that goes for us fans and Hawks upper management!!!
Xavier Molina
May 25th, 2010
9:43 pm
We need a center. We need a seven footer at least. This is what we should do: get rid of Joe Johnson, try to get Chris Bosh to come, trade away Marvin and others who we don’t need, and draft a seven footer in the draft to have a post presence. The fact is that if we get Chris Bosh, he can’t be our best player because he was the best player on Toronto and you see how they did. We need someone to go along with him, then we’ll be good.
K-Dogg
May 25th, 2010
9:57 pm
Quest all that dont mean anythign if he playing out of postion man!!!!!!!
Ramon
May 25th, 2010
10:05 pm
K-dogg, I think Josh’s athleticism overshadows how many other great things that he’s able to do on the court. For one, in my mind Josh is one of the best passing PFs in the league. Also many of Josh’s defensive read has more to do with awareness than they do leaping ability. You say what if Josh has a knee injury, but that can be the case with anyone. Horford’s main mismatches come from when he’s more athletic than the opposition. There’s been many occasions where you can walk away from a game and know that Josh’s defense was the reason the Hawks won the game. But how many times have you watched a game and said ‘Al’s defense is the reason we’re winning this game’. Josh can affect the game in so many different areas, and then has the plays to make you more money at the ticket booth also. For the last 4 seasons, Josh has been the main marketed player for the Hawks. How many commercials of the Hawks have you seen that didn’t include Josh?
guesswhosthis
May 25th, 2010
10:20 pm
The Hawks should trade Josh Smith to Golden State for their first round draft pick and pick up Al-Farouq Aminu from Wake Forest. He can make up for the loss of Josh Smith’s athleticsm and still bring in fans with his ability to make exciting dunks but he will also bring in hard work and hustle, something that Josh Smith lacks at times. Then they can move Al Horford to Power Forward and have Al-Farouq Aminu play small forward. I also think this can elevate Jeff Teagues play because he already has some chemistry with Al-Farouq Aminu from playing at Wake Forest so it could really make his transition to starter more comfortable. Also, with the pick that the Hawks have at #24, they should take Elliot Williams who I think can become the next Dwyane Wade. This can make up for the loss of Joe Johnson who I think might make it a little harder for Jeff Teague to shine because he tends to hold on to the ball too long. If having Elliot Williams at shooting guard doesn’t work immediately, then they can always put Jamal Crawford in as the starter and bring him off the bench allowing him more time to grow and improve his game. So with that in mind, Rick Sund should do a sign and trade with Joe Johnson for a descent Center that can play good Defense and Hustle. Our lineup could look something like this:
PG- Jeff Teague Sub- Mike Bibby
SG- Elliot Williams Sub- Jamaal Crawford
SF- Al-Farouq Aminu Sub- Marvin Williams, Josh Childress
PF- Al Horford Sub- ?
C- Randolph Morris or possible other Candidate
I think the Hawks can be very competitive with that lineup along with a coach who knows how to use young players and their athleticsm and they will only get better as the season goes on. We can be even more exciting than the current team. Go on youtube and check out some of their highlights and tell me what you think about our possible future team.
A.J Price
May 25th, 2010
10:34 pm
Damn Guys. It’s ok, I talked to my boy Sherron Collins and he said he’d help y’all out instead, since i’m injured. Sorry.
Grandad
May 25th, 2010
10:49 pm
KQ – new one?
doc
May 25th, 2010
10:56 pm
rod josh sometimes gets cute ala smoove. when he plays all the yime with balls and does the smash thing he will be an all star. his smoove act was the crap about dissing milwaukee and maybe hiring the limo to make his exit and point on going to chi-town. it got our buttts beat in milwaukee is all i am saying.
i am on the bus first for josh. just the same i dont accept it when he cry babies like the worst ala the queen or doesnt shoe up strong to the hole for games sometimes. sorry it is what it is. i hope you can se it before it bites you on the ass like marvin did me.
Urban Meyer
May 25th, 2010
10:58 pm
Hawks are losers! Always have been and always will be!!!!
What?
May 25th, 2010
11:11 pm
“as his high flying, rim rattling days are behind him.”
^why are those days behiend him?
Buck Foston
May 25th, 2010
11:13 pm
Suns will win the Title.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 25th, 2010
11:17 pm
“Soft” is a subjective term that can mean many different things to many people, but if your definition considers Marvin one of the least soft players on the Hawks, it may be time to revise your definition. To me, “soft” and “timid” are more or less the same, and Marvin is as timid as they come.
If you are criticizing Josh for not driving hard to the hole, that has a lot more to do with his lack of handles than any alleged “softness”. Josh is emotionally unstable, not soft.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 25th, 2010
11:18 pm
Where would Goran Dragic be if the Hawks had drafted him?
What???
May 25th, 2010
11:25 pm
It’s official, Jason Flemming is a DumbA$$ whose never watched a Hawks basketball game in his life. Dude deseves to be smacked.
http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=16321
“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”. – Albert Einstien
Mike Woodson is an Insane Idiot. FU@$5K Jason Fleming