Atlanta Hawks: Another Way With J.J.

While breaking down the Hawks’ options concerning J.J. and free agency, I mentioned in passing that the Hawks could gain a trade exception and perhaps a draft pick in a sign-and-trade with a team under the salary cap. Aaron, a moderator at Hawksquawk.net, emailed to say he thinks the exception (acquired in what’s known as a “non-simultaneous trade”) could be more beneficial than initially meets the eye:

“The traded player exception (TPE) the Hawks would get by trading him to a team under the cap would be extremely useful in future trades. It’s very possible that the Hawks could move Joe to somewhere like Chicago for a TPE and then turn around and use the TPE to acquire a replacement wing. Just off the top of my head, someone like Corey Maggette would definitely fit the mold of an available scoring wing. (Not sure how he’d feel about Crawford, but it’s just a thought). Joe wouldn’t mind because it wouldn’t affect his bottom line in a negative way, and the team receiving him would definitely be interested because it lowers his initial salary, thereby increasing the salary space they have to pursue complimentary players.”

(What he means by the lower initial salary is that because of the larger future raises available to a Bird Rules free agent, J.J.’s first-year salary would be lower in a sign-and-trade than in a straightforward signing.)

Good point by Aaron, and one that’s actually illustrated by the example I used in the post: Seattle’s sign-and-trade of Rashard Lewis to Orlando in 2008 for a $9 million trade exception and a second-round pick. In a non-simultaneous, a team can acquire up to 100 percent of the salary sent out plus $100,00 with any difference built up as a sort of credit known as a trade exception. Since draft picks have $0 value in trades until the player signs a rookie contract, the Hawks could get a pick and also get the full value of J.J.’s new contract as an exception and acquire a player(s) in a future trade (the limit is a year) without the requirement of matching salaries.

Typically, teams willing to trade a player without receiving a player in return tend to be teams looking to trim payroll and/or get out from under a contract (Maggette, to use Aaron’s example, has 3 years and $30.8 million left on his deal). And that’s pretty much what happened to the Sonics: they used the $9 million exception to acquire Kurt Thomas from the Suns, who were looking to shed payroll and gained an $8 million trade exception.

But the Sonics also got two first-round draft picks in that deal and later dealt Thomas to the Spurs for another first-round pick and a couple of expiring contracts. (That sequence of deals is one of the many examples of why Michael Gearon Jr.’s disdain for “bad contracts” can be a tad overstated: in the NBA, there’s almost always a way to move players for something of value even if it requires some short-term pain.)

So Aaron is right that a trade exception could be no small thing. The Hawks likely wouldn’t be able to get a comparable player to J.J., or might have to take on an burdensome contract do so, but it would provide more possibilities than simply using the mid-level, bi-annual and minimum-salary exceptions to plug the hole.

– The latest on the Hawks coaching search: Dwane Casey is set for another interview, Avery Johnson’s desire for personnel power has been overstated, Larry Drew is being considered and Mark Jackson appears to be a long shot. Rick Sund apparently hasn’t even narrowed down his initial list of candidates to a leading group.

MC

348 comments Add your comment

Gilley

May 24th, 2010
4:02 pm

Great breakdown on the contracts…..So it seems like we are operating under the assumption that Joe Johnson is a goner. FIRST

nickz

May 24th, 2010
4:06 pm

Unfortunately, I don’t see the Hawks being a “true” contender next year without resigning Joe. Barring the playoffs, he’s the leader and best player on our team and there would be no way for us to replace him since we don’t have the cap room to sign a big time free agency. And, Maggette’s a bum we don’t need.

Maybe a new coach and a new offensive strategy will get Joe going again and away from those stupid iso plays…

Hawk n the Ham

May 24th, 2010
4:13 pm

MC

Could the Hawks do a sign and trade to the Bulls, and get Deng (and maybe a draft pick) in return? Deng would be an upgrade at starting SF, and put Marvin back at a 6 man spot.

lewis

May 24th, 2010
4:16 pm

Hawk n the Ham:

I brought it up yesterday but no one responded.
If JJ wants to leave or wants too much money,

J. Johnson + (M. Williams) or (J. Childress) for
K. Hinrich + Luol Deng

Westurd

May 24th, 2010
4:18 pm

Put Marvin in the toilet and flush

lewis

May 24th, 2010
4:25 pm

I think Marvin would play a lot better alongside Noah, Taj and Derrick

hawks poop

May 24th, 2010
4:28 pm

Serious post:
Let’s go ahead and say that JJ resigns and we get a good xs and os coach.

Childress may want to come back to Atlanta since woodys set in stone starters are now competing again. And personally I think he’ll steal that starting role from marvin and put him in the back up role he was meant to play. Which will make him a more aggresive player since hell have limited minutes.
Next teague is going to develop. That shimmer we saw against the cleveland back ups is going to progresse during summer ball and he’s going to come out playing like the pg we’ve all been hoping for since we kissed chris paul goodbye.

A couple more bench pieces and we look like this

Starters
Teague
JJ
Childress
Smoove
Horford

Bench
Bibby
Zaza
Marvin
Crawford
Collins
West
??
??

Now is that really that bad of a team?

CONFEDERATE DAWG

May 24th, 2010
4:31 pm

SIGN NIQUE!!!!

Michael Cunningham

May 24th, 2010
4:33 pm

@ Hawk n the Ham: that’s possible under the rules if the Bulls throw in another player, but then the Bulls would be giving up one of their core pieces and ASG would have to take on Deng’s contract with four years and about $49 million. i don’t think either is likely.

austin

May 24th, 2010
4:34 pm

I think we need to send marvin somewhere and get something in return because he was a ghost this year and did nothing to help this team. i also think jeff teague is gonna fit into his role next year nicely with bibby’s shooting coming off the bench. so MC do you think aquiring a center and moving al to 4 and then have josh at 3 would be a good call if the coach can put it in josh’s head to DRIVE THE BALL? that would leave alot more space for Jamal and jeff teague to drive or shoot the 3…. What do you think???

Kevin

May 24th, 2010
4:47 pm

Ugh. My head hurts from trying to understand this.

terrell

May 24th, 2010
4:55 pm

Larry Drew? Are You kidding me? Why would we hire one of Woodrow’s assistants? Dont even go there Sund! If we go from interviewing Avery to hiring Larry Drew, I’ll …………. !!!! Thought we needed a DIFFERENT voice???

E43

May 24th, 2010
4:58 pm

If Joe is traded, I really think that Marvin Williams should remain and play 39 minutes per game until he hopefully creates a niche in the offense.
Many rookies like B.Jennings C.Paul and company assimilated into systems that really needed them to produce and play at high levels.
Marvin fought for time with childress and also had a long period of time sitting behind that iso heavy offense mainly run for G’s.
I think that alot is being said about trading hawks players when none of the players want it and honestly, Joe Johnson is an irreplaceable top 5 sg and Marvin is the only hawk that is YOUNG and can drive+shoot some mid-long range shots. i think the hawks can improve but i just dont think trading Joe or Marvin is the answer.
i can see the hawks adding fire power on the bench at PF and SF should evans decide to leave but i see no trades

i say force Marvin to a consistent 39MPG
get Teague + Bibby both playing pg in games
Crawford+joe at sg. (ill take my chances on Crawford defensively)
hope that the isos will diminish but that’s just my opinion.

terrell

May 24th, 2010
5:01 pm

Hawks poop, thats a bunch of poop! Isnt that the same team we had this year, – the Fro? We need to add NBA caliber bench players. Send Mario, Hamburger Collins, Joe “cant hit a jumper” Smith and co. packing.

GeeMack

May 24th, 2010
5:01 pm

hawks poop

Why would you want to bring back the same heartless bunch that showed no fight aganist the heartless Magic?

Smoove and Horford are the same players, however Horford is a leader, and it’s time to break that tandem up. They have take you as far as they can. Trade Smoove a get budding star.

E43

May 24th, 2010
5:02 pm

oh yeah childress could take marvins role but i think the hawks need to commit to keeping one of them on the team.

MyView

May 24th, 2010
5:03 pm

Losing Joe could hurt the Hawks, but I dont think it would be dire if the pieces aquired would fit nicely. I also think that without Joe we would see more good in Marvins game if he were more of a focal point and was able to practice touching the ball in an offense geared more towards him. He has all of the tools, but our limited ball/player movement style does not suit Marvins game. If he got regular screens then he’s a good enough shooter. In an offense that had more cuts to the basket, then he can finish well enough (not great but with more touches, he would improve) and is smart enough that I think he could become a better passer. He does not seem to have the hunger required to “get his” when he has to “take it”, but could do “it” if he was designated. I think he could get you 18-19ppg

I think that would also provide Al with another 6 touches with is probably good for 6 or 7 more ppgs for Al.

Im not saying that I want joe gone, but mabe a monte ellis,+ marcus camby+ right coach/system would at least keep the hawks contending.(monte and camby just to name a couple)

Add to that an improved more frequently used jeff teague. Who knows………

terrell

May 24th, 2010
5:07 pm

Why are people assuming Jeff Teague is the new starting pg? I think he has potential too, but remember it was Woody who just recently came out and said next year is Teague’s time. Unfortunately for Woody, and fortunately for us, it was a tad bit too late for that. Hope the new Coach sees what it took Woody 2 years to see. Mike Bibby is over the hill.

DeepDiver

May 24th, 2010
5:10 pm

MC — you think you could refer MB and JS to your excellent blog so they can write with an informed opinion on the Hawks, instead of the usual talking-out-of-the-hindquarters that they usually do?

Thanks so much MC — you have exceeded a pretty high standard set by your predecessor. SS was a fine beat writer but could never be bothered to actually get into the nuts and bolts of the CBA. He also came off as a bit pompous and holier-than-thou when challenged.

High marks, MC.

Big Ray

May 24th, 2010
5:12 pm

Interesting. Chicago does have some players I’m interested in if Joe wants to go there instead of staying here.

To echo the poster who mentioned keeping Joe, this is also a favorable situation with a coach who can better utilize the guys we have. I’m looking forward to an offense that actually spaces well, runs off-ball movement and ball movement, uses screens to free up our best shooters, etc.

No more “Iso and good luck” crap anymore.

li t

May 24th, 2010
5:12 pm

the hawks need to try a sign and trade to move bibby and smoove to dallas for dirk and sign b haywood with the money they r going give to joe your because dallas dont just want to lose dirk and not get anything and draft mikial torrence your staters would be mikial torrence crawford dirk al and b haywood on the bench u would have teague chills marvin j smithe za za thats a contender

Big Ray

May 24th, 2010
5:15 pm

GeeMack ,

You’re sure that the tandem of Smith and Horford has gone as far as it can? Considering they are no more than 24 years old and have only been playing together for three years, I find that a tad hard to believe.

I’m curious as to who you think an adequate replacement (or rather, an upgrade) is?

atl fan

May 24th, 2010
5:24 pm

now the hawks maybe work out a s&t involving bibby joe and smoove for dirk it could clear a enough cap space to sign b haywood but i’m like u li t the hawks need a big man

Najeh Davenpoop

May 24th, 2010
5:25 pm

I thought I had a monopoly on poop on this blog…

atl fan

May 24th, 2010
5:27 pm

Big Ray they need to upgrad at center move al to pf and get a sf that can shoot and play defense because al and smoove are 2 similar players

atl fan

May 24th, 2010
5:28 pm

hey you just like using the word poop hope u have a scooper

terrell

May 24th, 2010
5:34 pm

Sign Joe to a 4yr deal ONLY, draft a sf to replace Marvin in the starting lineup(Paul George)(Move up with Chills rights if we have to), replace Mario with Damien Wilkins, replace Collins and Morris with Kurt Thomas and Jamal McGloire, replace Joe Smith with Drew Gooden, Craig Smith, or Big Baby, and hire a good coach, and we’re set.
Teague/JJ/George/Josh/Al
Bibby/Crawford/Marvin/Gooden/Kurt Thomas/Zaza/Evans/McGloire
Really no need to break up the team just yet. Just add a few vet bigs to frustrate Howard, and see what we can do with a real coach.

Grandad

May 24th, 2010
5:35 pm

Michael:

My question / hypothetical trade may send out a ‘nire’ alert !

I have been to Coon’s site & I’ve now taken:
2 vicodins + 1 darvocet & 3 tylenol. (just kidding)

Non-simultaneous trade:

Joe S&T to New Orleans for Okafor + # 11 draft pick.
Thereby making it a non-simultaneous trade.
(not completed until draft ??? )
N.O.’s motivation besides getting Joe:
shedding Okafor’s egregious contract.
Joe’s motivation / max deal or extra yr. + proximity to LR Ark.
playing alongside Chris Paul & playing in a non abrasive market.
Our motivation – Okafor can defend D.Howard, minus double team.
Plus # 11 pick generates Paul George or Xavier Henry.

The question:
N.O. not under sal. cap.
Can a non-sim. trade be generated w/o recieving team [NO]
being under cap.
Is it even a non-sim. trade?
Michael, I understand if you don’t want to fool with this.
MannyT, nire, Najeh, Sautee, “Hatter”, Big Ray…………
Anybody want to take a crack @ it.
I’m going to see my Neurologist, now.

terrell

May 24th, 2010
5:36 pm

Forgot to put Wilkins on the bench. lol! Evans is probably a goner.

Dr. Dave

May 24th, 2010
5:50 pm

No one should assume that Larry Drew thinks and acts like Woody, and would be a continuation of the same old thing. Drew gets a lot of respect from the players, and would think on his own in decision making. That being said, the general public will think, like Terrell, that this is just more Woody, and probably won’t give him as much of a chance as someone outside of the existing organization.

Hawksfan

May 24th, 2010
5:52 pm

Sign and trade Joe Johnson

The Chicago Bulls get Joe Johnson

The Memphis Grizzlies get Luol Deng and Marvin Williams, maybe even our 1st round draft pick

The Atlanta Hawks get Joakim Noah and O.J. Mayo

There you go Rick Sund, now make it happen, or do I have to make all of the phone calls as well?

tyger

May 24th, 2010
6:08 pm

Trading JJ w/o BIG in return doesn’t help us.

Let’s examine the remaining 4 teams:

Lakers: Bynum, Gasol
Suns: Stoudamire, Lopez
Celtics: KG, Rasheed, Perkins
Magic: Howard, Gortat

One thing in common, real BIGS!!!

Horford and JSmoove as a front-line will only get you to the playoffs, you wont win SHT!

Big Ray

May 24th, 2010
6:11 pm

Grandad ,

Okafor is a quarter-to-a-half inch taller, and maybe 5-10 pounds heavier than Horford. I guess this makes Okafor a center? Just asking. It would be something to see both guys in the same frontcourt, but what do you then do with Josh Smith? Gotta think this through, so I’m guessing trade, because Josh is not a 3, and probably isn’t a guy who thrives coming off the bench. I can only imagine what kind of coach it would take to convince him to do such a thing. Okafor/Horford would provide one tough frontcourt that would gobble up at least 20 rebounds per game by themselves, I’m thinking.

Add a Paul George or Xavier Henry and we may have something. Still have to have an answer at the pg, and though I like Teague, another option may not be a bad idea just in case. You know, make the job Teague’s to lose, then have a backup plan if he actually loses it. Or not….we could just go with a vet/young vet as backup. Bibby is backup, but we are better limiting his minutes.

Big Ray

May 24th, 2010
6:13 pm

Larry Drew is in no way the same as Mike Woodson. There is no reason to believe so. Do we also assume that assistants of other coaches are carbon copies of their bosses? Do you think the exact same way as YOUR boss? I know I don’t…

Grandad

May 24th, 2010
6:18 pm

Big Ray:
“You’re sure that the tandem of Smith and Horford has gone as far as it can? Considering they are no more than 24 years old and have only been playing together for three years, I find that a tad hard to believe.”

I agree / bear with me.

My above question was just thst – a question?
Not my trade of the day, (coming later)
That hpothetical was to help me understand.
I spent 30 min. on L.Coon’s site & I got swimmy headed.

If Joe leaves and we can trade up high enough to get
- Paul George -
we may not be as bad off as we think.
He’s young but can do alot of what Joe does
@ a fraction of the cost + he’s more explosive.
[gets to the line]
And we can still get a vet.
G-dad’s T.o.t.D. after ‘while.

UGA

May 24th, 2010
6:19 pm

Terrell,
I like your ideas alot. I’ve thought Wilkins would be a great fit here for the league minimum. I do want to see though if Marvin is any better under a new coach.

terrell

May 24th, 2010
6:20 pm

Cant believe anyone still has faith in Marvin’s game. It’s been 5 freakin years. Unbelievable!

Grandad

May 24th, 2010
6:24 pm

Big Ray:

I wouldn’t want Okafor to start either.
He would only be a high priced D.Howard defender.
*(Ben Wallace)
My original scenario was to include Collison,
but I was fearful of getting greedy.
My above post…..^…..was written before I saw
your response to my query.

Big Ray

May 24th, 2010
6:25 pm

I love it when people think that Josh and Al are the reason why this team won’t go any further. I agree that we need more size/toughness…but tell me which teams still in the playoffs don’t have the following:

1) An effective pg.

2) An effective wing player who is either an effective/contributing scorer or a more than solid defender.

3) The best player on the team is performing well.

All three elements were missing from our team. All three are why the Magic are the weakest link in this year’s “final four.” The Magic have two “real bigs” who are bigger than anybody on the Celtics squad. Why are they on the verge of being swept with the league’s best center and Defensive Player of the Year?

“Real bigs” is not the only issue, nor is it the biggest issue.

And who the heck cares about Robin Lopez. He’s such a stud that he couldn’t even consistently take the starting job from Channing “I only wipe with Charmin toilet paper because I’m a pansy-a$$” Frye. He gets 20 minutes a game. He’s big, but he ain’t even as good as his brother, who lost an all-star bid to none other than Al Horford.

Bigs. Part of the story, but definitely not the whole story.

mississippi

May 24th, 2010
6:27 pm

Has there been any mention of Jeff Van Gundy? Has he been ruled out or not interested?

JeJe

May 24th, 2010
6:32 pm

Sund is a joke. My sources are telling me he went on 790 saying he wasn’t concerned about the blowout losses to Orlando because other teams were getting blown out too

ILL-logical

May 24th, 2010
6:32 pm

I have to strongly disagree with the notion that Larry Drew is tainted by his presence on the former head coach’s staff. I would in fact argue that his knowledge of the players and politics of this organization provide him with a unique opportunity ,at least in the short term, to take the team to a higher level of performance.

I also strongly disagree with the notion that losing Joe makes the Hawks weaker. As it stands, management is suggesting that joe play for more money but a “different role”. After being the leading scorer-but not the leader-of the team, does anyone rationall believe he is going to be comfortable on THIS team in a non leading scorer/ first option guy? He can be that on a team tht has a greater playoff potential via free agency. If the former coach is to be blamed for the offensive woe’s of the team, Joe has to bear some resposibility as well.

Plus, with Joe it is about the benjamins; remember the point guard thing didn’t work out because he said he didn’t want to do it beause playing point didn’t let him do what he did best:score.

Last, for all of the haters out there ,another coach means another system that can be built around the player’s strengths and not a coach’s arbitrary assignment of roles based on his stubborn attachment to his strategy.Remember a mind is like a paraachute: it works better when it’s open.

Big Ray

May 24th, 2010
6:32 pm

Grandad ,

Not arguing, just pondering. And oh hell yes, I would exercise my avarice right along with you in wanting Collins. I just don’t think New Orleans will give him up, not with CP3’s knees. Heck, they’d probably rather cut bait and run with CP3. Well, maybe not yet, but you can bet they’re at least thinking about it.

As far as Smith and Horford, I’m all for upgrading or finding a better fit….if it can be found, and as long as we can also see to it that we upgrade the 1 and 3 spots (and manage to survive at the 2 if Joe leaves). I’m just tired of people suggesting trading one or the other for some mysterious center that will make everything alright and automatically bring a championship.

People need only look at the Orlando Magic and super duper center Dwight Howard (who has a viable 7 foot backup) to see that this is NOT the end-all be-all in the league.

Besides, how many talented “real centers” do you see these days? Remember when it was Patrick Ewing, Hakeem Olajuwon, Alonzo Mourning, Brad Daugherty, Rik Smits, etc? Dwight would have gotten murdered by every single one of those guys.

JeJe

May 24th, 2010
6:33 pm

WHY DO PPL THINK WE NEED A CENTER WHEN WE HAVE SMOOVE AND AL WHO MUST PLAY THE 4 AND 5. SMOOVE CANNOT PLAY THE FREAKING 3. EVER. HE IS A BETTER 4 THAN 3. HE HAS NO IDEA HOW TO PASS OR DRIBBLE, MEANING HE WILL NEVER BE A 3 IN THIS LEAGUE. JESUS PEOPLE

Big Ray

May 24th, 2010
6:33 pm

And I just typed the whole post in bold. Okay, time to quit for a while…. :roll:

JeJe

May 24th, 2010
6:33 pm

The best part about getting a new coach is that we will finally see Marvin and Teague and if they have anything to offer this team. Getting Avery would be money for Teague (I hope?).

My top 3 coaching candidates in order are: Avery, Sam Mitchell, and Doc Rivers (pipe dream). Sam Mitchell seems like a guy who demands respect and will finally put Smoove in his place. Avery got to THE NBA FINALS. Any coach who gets a team to the Finals should be well respected (Note: D’Antoni never got the Suns there). Avery obviously had no answer for GSW in 2007, but what about Byron and JVG? Byron hardly did anything in NOH and JVG LOST to Dallas in Round 1 in 2006 after being up 2-0 after winning the first 2 games in Dallas.

Anyway, get Avery and see if he wants Teague or try steal Devin Harris from NJN, hoping they can get a PG.

The bottom line is we need a point guard.

And I ask the rest of AJC: IF WE NEED A CENTER, THEN WHAT DO U DO WITH HORFORD AND SMOOVE? THEY ARE STARTERS IN THIS LEAGUEU AND SMOOVE WILL SUFFER AS A PG. SMOOVE IS A TWEENER BUT IS A BETTER PF THAN SF. U CANNOT GET A CENTER WITHOUT TRADING HORFORD OR SMOOVE.

There is no way Chills takes the QO here. He’ll make 4.5 Million playing on the East Coast (I’m pretty sure he’d rather be in Cali) and that’s without his 50% tax bracket. This is opposed to staying in Greece and making 10M a year with no taxes to worry about.

I don’t know anything about Tyrone Corbin as a coach but come on…A borderline elite/ECF team looking at an assistant coach who was a role player here for 4 years?

FIRE WOODY

Big Ray

May 24th, 2010
6:37 pm

JeJe ,

If we add a starting center, we either have to trade Josh Smith or bench him. Can’t bench Al Horford. He’s a major part of the future of this team. In fact, if Joe was gone and I had to choose a single player to keep around and build around, it would be Horford. He’s still got the cheapest contract of all the starters, was named an all-star in his third year, and is a natural leader. And, he’s steadier than Josh Smith any day of the week, despite Smith’s considerable talents. This isn’t an indictment of Smith, just how I view it. I like Smoove, but he has yet to prove he can be trusted to bust his hump and keep his head in the game all or nearly all of the time.

The Truth

May 24th, 2010
6:38 pm

BONEHEADS 2.0!!

I hope the Hawks Org learned something from this pass season; the most important being that size does really matter. Our twitter lineup just isn’t going to work in the post-season (if we are so fortunate to make it there again). The line-up with Al (5) and Josh (4) is fine in situational team match-ups but is not the solution for the long haul. When you add Bibby (who is also a twitter) and the weak bench, perhaps this explain our inconsistent problems and why we played so poorly in the play-off. Let’s not kid ourselves; Phil Jackson couldn’t have done much better with this team.

The new coach need to be a part of re-designing of this team. What we don’t want to happen is Sund making roster changes and additions without the new coach’s inputs. As he continues to interview prospects and take his time (as he should), I hope his decision comes sooner rather than later. The upcoming draft is looming closer and this team has so many gaps to fill, it will take the collected will of both the GM and new coaching staff to take this team to where the ASG has claim it needs to be. Since, the team shortcomings have been well documented from just about every NBA expert on the planet, any attempt to cover-up, mask, or localized the blame to be “just coaching” will not work. If such a tragedy happens, the next firing could come from the office of Rick Sund.

Big Ray

May 24th, 2010
6:38 pm

JeJe ,

:lol: Why are you still saying “Fire Woody”? He’s gone, bro’. It’s okay, I swear….

Big Ray

May 24th, 2010
6:39 pm

The Truth ,

Okay, like I’ve said, I can roll with that? But what is the solution to the size issue in the lineup? Specifics, not the ususal “get a center” vanilla answer. Heard that one too many times already.