Atlanta Hawks: Why J.J. may be worth more to the Hawks than you think
If J.J. walks, the Hawks won't be able to replace him with a comparable free agent. (Curtis Compton/ccompton@ajc.com)
Hawks GM Rick Sund said the team will do whatever it takes to re-sign Joe Johnson but he’s not writing the checks. One guy who is, ASG’s Michael Gearon Jr., said the Hawks would “react” once Johnson hits the free-agent market on July 1.
Gearon didn’t want to talk about J.J. this week but on the day after the Hawks’ season ended he offered some insight into his view on max contracts:
“The biggest problem most teams make is they sign a contract and it ends up being a bad contract. You look at the Miami Heat, Jermaine O’Neal makes $23 million a year. Is he a player that is worth $23 million a year? I would say probably not. If you look at our team, we’ve assembled a team where we try to stay away from bad contracts.
“That said, there isn’t a move we haven’t made. We thought it made sense to get Jamal Crawford here and increase the payroll, so we did that. With the salary cap, the only way go above that is trade players you have or you re-sign players you have where the payroll goes up. Since we bought the team the payroll has increased [by] $24 million What we haven’t done is make a mistake with a bad contract. Well, I shouldn’t say that, Speedy’s contract wasn’t very good, but we turned it into something [in the Crawford trade].”
The obvious counter to Gearon’s argument is getting players like O’Neal often requires signing (or trading for) deals that carry some risk on the back end. But clearly that’s not ASG’s philosophy and, as I’ve said before, it’s hard to blame them since there are only a few max-salary players who would excite fans to the point of offering a reasonable chance of a return on investment in this market. Gearon again:
“If somebody came to us tomorrow and said you can have LeBron for max money and it puts you in the luxury tax, I’d do it in a a heartbeat. But am I going to do that for Ilgauskas? Am I going to do it for Jermaine O’Neal? I don’t think so. . . .
“We have piled tens of millions of dollars into this product to make it good. But it’s also up to fans to show up and see your team and support your team. I think we’ve given them a product as exciting as any in the league. You want people to be there, you want them to support your team and be proud of it. I think we have a team that deserves that.”
No one knows for sure what J.J. can get on the market and/or at what point Sund’s “whatever it takes” is trumped by ASG’s fiscal restraint. But chances are if the Hawks are going to sign a major free agent this summer, it’s going to be J.J. Otherwise, due to salary-cap rules they don’t have many options for signing a comparable replacement.
You can either trust me on that, slog through the following detailed explanation (which could possibly make your head hurt and your eyeballs bleed) or skip down the paragraph that starts with “All of those moves technically would leave the Hawks with $8.1 million in cap room”. . . .
I’ve checked all of the following against info posted by cap expert Larry Coon. I also exchanged e-mails with Coon, who after years of providing friendly help for helpless hacks like me now is writing a blog at the New York Times Web site, among other places. I also corresponded with blog reader Robert Dinterman, who says he’s just a fan with a lot of CBA knowledge. I can tell you this is true, so Ps and thanks to Robert.
I’ve included the appropriate links if you are interested in how I came up with the numbers or are some kind of masochist (I don’t judge). I’m pretty confident it’s all accurate but I don’t claim to be a cap expert or any better than competent at simple arithmetic. If you think there are any errors in math or cap interpretation, please send me an email–mcunningham at ajc.com–and I will check it out and update where necessary.
As it stands, the Hawks have roughly $47.6 million committed to eight players next season when including Mo Evans’ $2.5 million. Let’s say Evans opts out and then J.J. and Josh Childress and all their other free agents signs elsewhere and/or the Hawks renounce all their free agents.
If all of that happens, then the following would come off the Hawks’ books for their total offseason salary of approximately $78.9 million, which includes committed salaries and cap holds for their free agents and the No. 24 draft pick (assuming they keep it):
Joe Johnson’s $15.8 million cap hold
As a Bird Free Agent, Johnson’s offseason salary figure is based on 150 % of previous salary, which is about $22.5 million, but the figure can’t exceed the maximum salary for a nine-year player, which hasn’t been determined yet but that Coon estimates will be about $15.8 million.
Josh Childress’ $10.9 million cap hold
Childress is a Bird Free Agent coming off the fourth year of his rookie-scale contract. According to the 2004-05 rookie scale, Childress’ fourth-year salary as the No. 6 pick was 26.8 percent more than his third-year salary of $2.86 million, or $3.6 million. (The higher salary is because Childress made about 120 percent more than the scale, which is allowable.) The $3.6 million is less than the league-defined average salary of $4.9 million in 2004-05. Therefore, Childress’ cap hold is 300 percent more than $3.6 million, or roughly $10.9 million.
Mo Evans’ $2.5 million salary
If Mo opts out, his salary is wiped out.
Mario West’s $1.06 million cap hold
As a three-year veteran who has been previously waived, West is a non-bird, restricted free agent. As such, his team salary is calculated as the greater of 120 percent of his previous salary ($572,344) or his qualifying offer. For West, the qualifying offer is the greater of 125 percent of his previous salary ($596,191) or the three-year vet minimum ($885,120) plus $175,000, which is $1.06 million.
Joe Smith’s $854,389 cap hold
Smith is a 12-year veteran with a minimum 2010-11 salary of $1.352 million, but since he’s played more than seasons any salary in excess of the two-year veteran minimum salary in 2010-11 ($854,389) is reimbursed by the league and not counted as part of team salary.
Jason Collins’ $854,389 cap hold
Collins is a nine-year veteran with a minimum 2010-11 salary of $1.229 million, but since he’s played more than three seasons any salary in excess of the two-year veteran minimum salary in 2010-11 ($854,389) is reimbursed by the league and not counted as part of team salary.
Randolph Morris $854,389 cap hold
Morris is a four-year veteran with a minimum 2010-11 salary of $992,680, but since he’s played more than three seasons any salary in excess of the two-year veteran minimum salary in 2010-11 ($854,389) is reimbursed by the league and not counted as part of the team salary.
Subtracting Evans’ option plus the free-agent holds would leave the Hawks’ salaries at about $46.1 million (committed salaries for seven players at $45.1 million plus the rookie scale amount of $964,000 for the 24th pick).
But other salary charges apply since the Hawks then would be under the salary cap (estimated by the league will be $56.1 million in 2010-11) and have only eight players when counting the players under contract plus the first-round pick. The roster charge for the four empty spots below 12 are based on the 2010-11 rookie minimum salary of $473,604, for a total of $1.89 million. That would increase the Hawks’ salary total to about $48 million ($46.1 million plus $1.9 million).
All of those moves technically would leave the Hawks with roughly $8.1 million in cap room, but they would be subject to holds for the mid-level and bi-annual exceptions. Those holds apply if adding them would put the Hawks over the cap. It’s hard to say if that will happen now because while the amount for the 2010-11 bi-annual exception is known ($2.08 million) the mid-level amount hasn’t yet been set (Coon is estimating it will be $5.73 million this season). Also, all these salary numbers are estimates while the league calculates them down to dollars and cents. No, really.
If the Hawks are subject to cap holds for the mid-level and bi-annual exceptions, they could renounce those exceptions to gain cap room. Either way, they would be looking at adding players by using either the mid-level and bi-annual exceptions or roughly $8 million in cap room plus minimum-salaried players. So even if Evans opts out, Johnson walks, Childress returns to Greece and/or the Hawks renounce those two and all of their other free agents, there’s still not much flexibility for the Hawks.
As for the Hawks using Johnson in a sign-and-trade to get more value in return, the best way for that to happen is trading him to a team that is over the salary cap. Teams with enough cap room can just sign Johnson straight up and, as everyone knows, there are lots of those teams this summer. Already the Heat are reported to have interest in Johnson, who has said he likes them, too.
If Johnson wants a maximum deal under the Bird rules and his new team agrees, he could go back to the Hawks and ask for a sign-and-trade (he can get six years instead of five and up to about $30 million more that way). But the Hawks wouldn’t have much leverage in that situation, especially if Johnson’s new team is offering him the non-bird max and the Hawks don’t want to go that high. In that case if the Hawks say no to a sign-and-trade, then J.J. could just sign with the new team for the non-bird max.
If the Hawks agreed to a sign-and-trade with Johnson’s new team, they could expect to get back something similar to what Seattle acquired in similar circumstances when Rashard Lewis bolted as a free agent for Orlando in 2007: a conditional second-rick pick and a trade exception.
All of this is a long, painful, mind-numbing way of saying Johnson’s value to the Hawks is enhanced not only because he’s their best player, but also because should he leave they won’t have the flexibility to sign a comparable player. The Hawks could try to get better through trades, but then the problem becomes their reluctance to break up their core group (and possibly weaken the roster in other areas) and the difficulty with trading bad contracts for better players. That’s not to mention ASG’s aversion to taking on large, long-term deals and paying the luxury tax (expected to be about $70 million in 2010-11).
So after three straight years in the playoffs and consecutive trips to the East semis, the Hawks would be hard-pressed to be as good or better next season if J.J. leaves. There could potentially be more flexibility the next season, with Jamal off the books and Bibby’s contract more tradeable, but who the heck knows what will happen between now and then.
Now excuse me while I go place bandages over my bleeding eyeballs.
MC
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
475 comments Add your comment
truthspitter
May 20th, 2010
2:49 am
Your wrong, if the cap is going to be $56 million which has been reported then they will have 10.8 million to work with after they make Mo opt out. They currently have 47.6 million tied up for next year, if Mo opts out of his $2.5 million contract that will leave them with $45.1 mill or so on books. They will have $10.8 or so million to spend. They could sign Rudy Gay to a contract comparable to what Josh and Danny Granger are getting which started with about $10 there 1st year. They could then go over the cap to sign there own guy Joe. I hate when reporters, writers, and even the front office lie to fans, they are lying if they say what I type is not true I do my research.
Grandad
May 20th, 2010
3:14 am
truthspitter:
That’s why NY is waiting until after they sign
their two (supposed) Big time FA’s before they
re-sign David Lee. At least that’s what I’ve read.
Dr. Warren
May 20th, 2010
5:28 am
Nice, exacting post, MC. It looks like the Hawks, at best, will provide us fans with another four-or- five-year “run of goodness” that, at best, ends in a 2nd round dismissal. It happened in the late 70’s with Drew-EJ-Roundfield; it happened in the 80’s with Spud-Doc-Dominique; it happened in the 90’s with Mookie-Dikembe-Steve Smith. And we’re three years into this run already. Guess our next chance to break the cycle will come around 2020. Ahhhh, Atlanta pro sports.
jeff
May 20th, 2010
6:29 am
JJ is not worth max money. 16 Million…. no way. try 8-10 million. He has already earned more than his worth. The way I see it at 16 million he is making 10 cents a dribble and $5000.00 a point.
Go get 2 average players and let this one walk.
MannyT
May 20th, 2010
6:34 am
@truthspitter–did you account for the cap holds? MC did a very good job of walking through the expenses related to players that have some level of free agency. Look at his initial blog information.
@MC–Great blog, you may have to permalink this for the entire summer as it will be a strong reference point for offseason activity.
You have eliminated 90% of my offseason posting by doing this. Fine by me. You and @niremetal can do the heavy math/cap rule lifting
I would only add that the typical sign & trade means you take back about 1/2 the salary you send away in the 1st yr of the contract. So if Joe’s new deal started at $16 mil, we could take back about $8 mil in 2010-11 season salary. It’s due to the Base Year Compensation rules. In the Lewis sign & trade, I think Seattle got a big trade exception instead of players due to Orlando being way under the cap at that time. Otherwise it would have meant getting back about 1/2 of Lewis’s 1st year salary in that new contract.
For all the folks that didn’t look into the Larry Coon link, they are unlikely to have an appreciation for the complexity of NBA salay cap rules. Coon is an odd person to follow on Twitter. He cannot be contained by 140 character responses.
The quickest summary of all this Joe or no Joe discussion comes down to replacing Joe most likely gets you a player that makes Marvin’s money (if you look at the average of his current contract.)
Maybe the bigger question for the fans is How much do you expect the ownership to spend to get better? I think some folks forget that there is a business aspect to a team. The ASG cannot lose money forever.
Hawks get flushed
May 20th, 2010
7:15 am
hey hey orlando like the hawks no class to and cleveland also as for J.J Joe Johnson he worth 45illion else where we need a player to play as for Josh smith he never did.for Us he worth 3.95 cents to us with his berated of Fans here.Joe Johnson will sign with cleveland cause labran James will be a boston celtic next season for 8 years at 74 million dollars!
O'Brien
May 20th, 2010
7:16 am
@northcyde,
“But to be honest, most of the fan base was cool with bringing back Bibby, Zaza, and Marvin, and thought each one got either a fair deal, or was slightly overpaid”.
Some of us were open to Jarrett Jack as a possible alternative. He is younger and cheaper than Bibby, and his defense is a lot better (although he is not quite the shooter). Ramon Sessions was also mentioned as a possible alternative. But the Hawks did not explore any options.
Fair enough. Most of us were okay with them coming back. The problem we have, is Bibby got a third year GUARANTEED (should have been a third year team option), and Marvin’s contract at ~$7.5 mil annually is high, especially since it looks like Sund bid against himself, instead of waiting on the market like he did with Josh and Chills.
@Najeh,
Other teams find guys at value price (or guys who exceed their contract value), but the Hawks cant seem to do it (except for Flip maybe). Wesley Matthews, Anthony Morrow, Will Bynum etc.
Jamario Moon signed for $3 mil. Magic got Petrius for $5.5 mil when they signed him.
What do we do? Give Marvin $7.5 mil (while not working out a deal with Chills). Hopefully, another coach will find a way to get Marvin motivated and involved, so his value to the team (and his trade value will increase).
If the Hawks can give a phone interview to Demopoulos, maybe they can give one to Tom Thibodeau too (if Boston allows it).
Peter
May 20th, 2010
7:28 am
This statement is funny…….”If you look at our team, we’ve assembled a team where we try to stay away from bad contracts.”
Please someone explain Marvin Williams then ?
Reality Bites
May 20th, 2010
7:47 am
Joe Johnson is worth whatever the Hawks can get for him in a trade. He quit in the playoffs. He’s a quitter! He not only let down his own team and the fans but then threw insults at the fans. Johnson will no longer be tolerated in Atlanta. Johnson is a quitter and does not have a champion’s heart! Trade him as soon as possible!
governor404
May 20th, 2010
7:54 am
Hold on Hawk fans, are you watching the playoffs?You have to form your teams to beat and compete with the elite, first on defense, it is imperative to have at least 3 legitimate big men not some blown up undersized pf(s) to compete with the lakers, celts and magic. Second, teams that rely on spot up stand still shooters i.e. the magic and cavs cannot win. So you must have players than can create on their own against focused defenses, enter JJ and Jamal, they must be retained if you want to have a chance at winning in the playoffs. Dalembert, Haywood or Oden must be added to the front line mix to compete and lastly Teague must be allowed to develop into the penetrating, quick pg that is Rondo in order to have a chance at winning the title. P.S. let Mark Jackson coach the team.
oldfart
May 20th, 2010
7:55 am
Woody in the end couldn’t get him to listen and do you hire a coach to his liking or do you let him go packing and hire a coach that can build a TEAM. I have no desire to see a ME player get paid the big bucks. His performance in the playoffs and reaction to the justifiable treatment by the fans says it all. Don’t let the the door his ya Joe.
G'Vegas Dawg
May 20th, 2010
8:02 am
DOOOOOOO-DOOOOOOOOO! That’s what he’s worth. Just like he told us, we don’t need him to show up either. Hit the damn bricks son!
Morrus
May 20th, 2010
8:03 am
Curiously, in a supposed anti-incumbent year, most of the departing are not retiring but seeking higher office. We may recycle more than we replace. The bad news is that a frustrating 114 seats still have but one contestant. Two of them aren’t even incumbents, meaning they will affect state policy without being vetted by voters. And I have to think that we’d be better off if many had run instead for the Legislature — and cut down on the number running unopposed. Georgia’s problems are numerous. They aren’t going away. There’s too much stale thinking at the Capitol, on both sides of the aisle. New voices would be welcome.
JSS
May 20th, 2010
8:22 am
@ Davenpoop
You’ve finally hit the hammer on the nail… It is about “quality depth!” The Hawks have failed miserably at two things. 1. That our abject failure in being able to take advantage of the charity that is the Draft Lottery has left the cupboard bare. Billy Knight just made a mess of it, only 1 true draft lottery success: Al Horford… 2. We have no track record of using our mid level exceptions or low level UFA signings well at all… Bless Joe Smith, Mo Evans and Flip Murray; but they are indicative of our ash heap approach to filling our bench… We can’t keep doing that…
Dokter
May 20th, 2010
8:25 am
Someone should ask Micheal Gearon and the other ASG partners what they do with the $9M per year Philips Electronics pays for the naming rights to Philips arena. That contract runs for about 9 more years @$9M per.
Mr. Phil
May 20th, 2010
8:33 am
Mike, the scenario you suggest is true only because the CBA is designed not to protect teams from losing star players but to punish those who want to part with an aging player. The CBA is designed to make sure bad teams stay bad.
Section 303
May 20th, 2010
8:34 am
I’m ready to move along without Joe Johnson. The guy is not worth a max deal. He just isn’t. The Hawks cannot let Joe Johnson hold the organization at ransom. Max deal guys do not rip the fans and continually fail to make crucial baskets.
And, really, if Joe Johnson does not want to come back here then he can go F himself. I really don’t care. As long as he does not get a max deal from the Hawks, I don’t care what he does.
Section 303
May 20th, 2010
8:36 am
JSS, I would not lump Flip Murray into that group of scrap heaps you mentioned. Flip was a really good player when he was here. I would love to have him back, in fact.
G-Money
May 20th, 2010
8:40 am
Mr.Gearon please take your head out of the sand for a few minutes and come into reality. When your group took over control of the Hawks, ostensibly what you had was an expansion franchise. Billy Knight gutted out any contracts of value, and started rebuilding with the draft. With the exception of the Joe Johnson and Speedy Claxton contracts, this team was rebuilt through the draft. Please spare us the nonsense of your shrewdness, and we stay away from bad contracts hogwash, the reality of how this organization is run is summed up in your statement about how you will “react” to Joe’s free agency this summer. I noticed there is no plan to be proactive. Nothing innovative, or creative, let’s see where the market takes us, and then we will react. You were fortunate with Josh Smith, this time you may end up getting your head handed to you with Joe Johnson.
Daniel
May 20th, 2010
9:11 am
I think the issue of Joe’s contract is still really going to be about the length. I would be reluctant to give that 5th year.
niremetal
May 20th, 2010
9:18 am
Truthspitter/Grandad,
You cannot manipulate the cap rules by signing another team’s free agent first and then signing your own using the Bird exception. The Hawks cannot have the cap space to re-sign another team’s free agent unless they renounce JJ and Childress. Once you renounce a player, that renouncement cannot be revoked. So it is impossible for the Hawks to use their cap space and then sign JJ or Childress too.
wuffe
May 20th, 2010
9:18 am
I dont like the way this is going. If we sign this silent warrior Joe J. , we’re going to be a team stuck in mediocrety for a long time. Replace him with a younger more athletic guard , Rudy Gay and give Him near the Max . He’s more explosive and has a higher upside. And yes definitely go for the sixers center..
Dalembert C
Horford PF
Josh Smith SF
Rudy Gay SG
Teague PG
Crawford bench …. This team would have given the Magic fits…faster at the point ,,, faster at SG..a real center.
vava74
May 20th, 2010
9:23 am
There isn’t a single person in the blog (slight exaggeration, I know) which makes a trade, signing or re-signing suggestion thinking about DEFENSE.
I thought that the series which BOS had against CLE and is having now against ORL would “teach” something to the fans, but it obviously doesn’t.
JJ is an excellent two-way player. No, he is not Lebron on offense, but he can easily average 20 points for the next 3 and maybe 4 years of his career AND he is a very good perimeter defender.
Most of the names which fly around address how we would be replacing his 20ppg, but NONE address the need for good defense.
If a new coach brings in an offensive scheme (anything will be better than Woody) and that scheme, as it is logic, will make JJ catch and shoot a lot more than dribble and shoot, his longevity and his shooting average will both improve.
Also, JJ had another terrible playoffs run because something was really rotten within the roster and he lost his faith in what we were doing (all of them did it).
During the 4 first games against MIL he was playing at ALL NBA level, averaging 25ppg 7rpb 5apg and shooting close to .500.
He sulked and MIL also adjusted their defense to our “scheme” and by the time we reached the ORL series, JJ had to face a team which all season long caused him tremendous problems.
With an offensive scheme which did not command him to dribble into double and triple teams and Howard’s help defense, he would have been a lot more productive.
It seems that no one really heard and understood Hubie Brown’s interview after all.
Mike a con & ham
May 20th, 2010
9:31 am
Hey mr con&ham why dont you do a story about how woodson wanted Chris Paul and Brandon Roy but Sund-of-A-Bytch insisted on Marvin William and Sheldon.
May be you could report about the in fighting over the need to spend the money on quality players verses Sund-of-A Bytch’s insistence that when dont need first rate talent to win championships.
By the way JJ is out of here! I dont blame him. Let the rebuilding begin. Avery is feminine talking coach who is not as good as woodson who couldnt get his team to a championship with more talent than the hawks currently have. Woodson whopped Doc Rivers repeatedly over the past few year with less talent and any assistant coach would be an experiment at best. So how are you upgrading the Hawks?
Sund has proven that he will never take a team to championship but will leave a team in a good but not great status just like he did Dallas.
Let the rebuilding begin!
The same experts who picked the hawks 4-8 seed (they were right on the money although Woodson over achieved to 3rd seed), are now predicting the hawks will be in the rebuilding process for the next 4-5 years.
Thanks Con&Ham, Thanks Sund-Of-A-Bytch!
PMC
May 20th, 2010
9:32 am
One could argue that a significant problem with the NBA are those guarenteed albatross contracts for players making a lot more money than they are worth. Owners are paying the money to either steal players or to retain them and they play just good enough for long enough to get that contract… then they seem to let most of the effort fall off.
Mike a con & ham
May 20th, 2010
9:33 am
*We dont need first rate talent
PMC
May 20th, 2010
9:33 am
This team was doomed to this because Billy Knight made the wrong moves far too many times at the top of the draft.
Idiot Watch
May 20th, 2010
9:37 am
No one has said on this site “DEFENSE WINS BALL GAMES”. No one has said that we n eed a FREAKING DEFENSIVE CENTER NOT NAMED HORFORD!
DUH!
THE TONE
May 20th, 2010
9:38 am
is anyone else scared that joe may be the type that gets the big contract and then coasts the rest of his career ? its a legit question he sure didn’t have any fire in the playoffs when he should have been auditioning for a huge pay day.
Idiot Watch
May 20th, 2010
9:38 am
BILLY KNIGHT HAS LONG BEEN OUT OF THE EQUATION. THIS IS SUNDOFABYTCH’S DOING
Idiot Watch
May 20th, 2010
9:40 am
I wont blame jj one bit because Sun-of-a-bytch has fccked up his chance to compete at the championship level which is why he came here.
Wisdom
May 20th, 2010
9:44 am
FIRE SUND
Hawks73
May 20th, 2010
9:55 am
There’s nothing more exciting to know that on of the CEO’s of the Hawks states that they will “react” to to market conditions once J.J. is offered a contract…GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Furthermore to state that “We have piled tens of millions of dollars into this product to make it good. But it’s also up to fans to show up and see your team and support your team. I think we’ve given them a product as exciting as any in the league. You want people to be there, you want them to support your team and be proud of it. I think we have a team that deserves that.” This is merely a setup/excuse being laid in front of us “fans” as a precursor to the lack of moves the Hawks will make this offseason. I’m calling it right now, the Hawks will let J.J. go and try to replace him with more “fiscally” responsible player(s)/moves that will justify their lack of dedication.
I wish they would either bring in some investors/partners that have some cash or just sell this team (to an owner that can be “fiscally” responsible and also proactive to make this team better.)
Najeh Davenpoop
May 20th, 2010
10:05 am
From Bill Simmons’ column today:
“5:05: On consecutive possessions, Glen Davis stops Howard on a low-post move with no help, then takes a charge from Nelson. Celtics by eight. And by the way, no matter how this series plays out, we now know the blueprint for beating the 2009-10 Magic: defend Howard one-on-one (and use your fouls on him), stay home on the 3-point shooters and dare their perimeter guys to beat people off the dribble.”
I believe we all came to this conclusion about two months ago when the Hawks beat the Magic, didn’t we?
Parker Pounder69
May 20th, 2010
10:09 am
July first needs to get here quick. PAT SUMMITT
Dejay
May 20th, 2010
10:23 am
Hey NC, good use of the Portland analogy as to how folks should support the Hawks here. And those folks have always supported the Blazers despite competition from the NFL, MLB…oh wait…they don’t have an NFL, MLB, or NHL team in their town, do they???
Comparing our fanbase who has at least three other pro sporting options (and that’s not even counting college football) at their disposal to a one-horse town like Portland is like comparing Churchill Downs to a doggy track in Alabama.
Our fans need to grow up? Really, Northcyde? Our fans have grown up alright. They grew up knowing that no matter how many games the Hawks win in the regular season, by the time the conference finals roll around (where the ‘big boys’ come to play), they’ll be at home watching them with you and me. Have they been wrong yet?
Being just ‘good’ may stoke the masses in OKC or San Antonio, where the NBA is the only game in town. Here, you have more to do on a Wednedsay night when Kobe isn’t playing at Philips. And if you’re not a major contender for the ring and you don’t have a transcendent superstar to lead you to that ring, you’ll never see the casual fans in this town step foot in the building. Just ask the Braves how well ticket sales would’ve been if they would’ve kept Jason Heyward in Gwinnett.
If they want to pull in those casual fans, they have to acquire a superstar-level player and get beyond the second round. Every NBA fan in town knows that in order to be taken as a serious team, you have to have one; those Detroit teams from a few years ago are the lone exception to the rule and we all know that Marvin and Teague has a ways to go before being compared to Tayshaun Prince and Chauncey Billups in their primes.
It isn’t our fault that we can smell a phony from miles away and decide to stay home instead. You look up the term in Webster’s dictionary and find the Hawk logo printed right next to it.
Ramon
May 20th, 2010
10:27 am
Najeh, yea we did. I don’t think it was a person here who advice the Hawks to double Dwight.
JSS
May 20th, 2010
10:41 am
@ Section 303
It was not to demean Flip’s game, it was the matter of how we came to acquire him in the first place (in August of 2008 after the Childress exodus). Moreover, the Hawks further compounded the last off season when it was a Evans/Murray choice…
@Davenpoop
No, it was a consensus amongst any one who’d watch the Magic’s shooters torch the Hawks!
doc
May 20th, 2010
10:42 am
northcyde, as far as the fans are concerned 22 of 30 in spending 18th of 30 in attendance after having moinor league basketball for ten years. i still think the fans are winning. ralith if you arent in markets like boston. new york philly chicago you might get screwed. in regards to jj it seems we have to lie back and accept whatever comes. i hope the ASG dont try to get to cute on this one. maybe they ought to offer contingency packages, the fans cost is based on the teams competence and owners willingness to spend. oh yeah that is what we do now in a way isnt it?
our team played like losers because they were overmatched in spite of our third seed. we played like an 18th seed (fans rating) lucky to be there. this isnt the only game in town. atlantic station seemed mighty crowed during the playoffs during the milwaukee game. i wonder why some of those folks werent at the game paying full price? there is a lot of other entertainment out there to compete with.
get a winner, sure winner developed over the years gearon then see what happens. gearon as an owner sounds like the fan who expects the owners to go out and get dwade, labron bosh and amare this year all because they are unrestricted free agents and they have blinders on. come spend money then i will give you a better team is gearon’s motto. both are just as unrealistic.
MC, good stuff. BTW you have two very good capologists in niremetal and manny t at your service on the blog any time you need them. somehow they get it and never lead us astray. anyone who has kept up here for long knew most of this info of course not down t hairy details like you put out here.
bottom line, sign jj and then deal with the consequences later. cant be any worse than overlooking, deron, cp3 and brandon roy within two years.
second bottom line get a coach the players and fans can have some trust in.
there you are gearon the solution to all our problems. simple stuff. reminder gearon, KISS principle applies and dont get cute. be smart.
JSS
May 20th, 2010
10:47 am
And that was way back last off season!
northcyde
May 20th, 2010
10:48 am
truthspitter
May 20th, 2010
2:49 am
Your wrong, if the cap is going to be $56 million which has been reported then they will have 10.8 million to work with after they make Mo opt out. They currently have 47.6 million tied up for next year, if Mo opts out of his $2.5 million contract that will leave them with $45.1 mill or so on books. They will have $10.8 or so million to spend. They could sign Rudy Gay to a contract comparable to what Josh and Danny Granger are getting which started with about $10 there 1st year. They could then go over the cap to sign there own guy Joe. I hate when reporters, writers, and even the front office lie to fans, they are lying if they say what I type is not true I do my research.
********************
He didn’t lie Truthsplitter . . . you just didn’t pay attention to detail or you still don’t understand the salary cap rules.
First, you didn’t add the money that our draft picks will make in 2010, which will equal a little over 2 million total. And they have to be added to what we have available to spend, because those draft picks have cap holds as well, even if they aren’t signed immediately. MC directly told you that in his analysis. That’s how he came up with the 8.1 million figure.
And he, and then Najeh told you right as well. The only way we get to that 8.1 million figure, is to renounce the rights of EVERY unrestricted and restricted free agent the Hawks have. That includes ( JJ, Childress, Mo Evans, Mario West, Joe Smith, Jason Collins, Randolph Morris,and Othella Hunter ).
And once we do that, we lose the ability to go over the salary cap to re-sign ANY of those players.
Then, you’re in a situation in which you have to 1) hope free agents will want to come here, and 2) hope people don’t outbid you for free agents.
8 million probably won’t be enough to outbid somebody for Rudy Gay. Then you’ll have to hope that unrestricted free agents will want to come here to play. Last year, guys like Jason Collins and Joe Smith were bottom of the barrel big men that were left, after all the other big men signed elsewhere. The Hawks tried to sell those moves as being helpful to us. In retrospect, they probably would’ve been better off giving Solomon Jones another 1 year deal ( if he would’ve taken it . . which he wouldn’t have . . seeing that he got a 2 yr – 3 million deal from Indiana ).
Make sure you fully grasp a situation, before you go out and call a man a liar. Mike C. correctly and thoroughly explained the situation to you.
northcyde
May 20th, 2010
10:52 am
My bad . .. that was niremetal, not najeh, that told you right. But there are many people who understand our situation, even when people refuse to understand it.
northcyde
May 20th, 2010
10:57 am
And once we do that, we lose the ability to go over the salary cap to re-sign ANY of those players.
We CAN re-sign those players once we go over the cap, but we’ll be limited to using the mid-level exception ( MLE ) or the lower-level exception ( LLE ). We won’t be able to sign them for any amount that we want, once we go over the salary cap.
So that would essentially take us out of the running for signing an even close to star level player, once we reach the salary cap line. Whatever good player we sign, it would have to be during the time in which we were below the line.
CraigEhlo
May 20th, 2010
10:58 am
Eveyone keeps saying get Avery Johnson. Johnson guided the Mavs to a 60-win series and a high seeding in the playoffs (#1). Avery Johnson’s team LOST a playoff series after being up 2-0 in the series. If Averys team had one just one more game and gone up 3-0 they would have won that series. But they didnt and that indicates to me that Avery Johnson couldnt motivate the Mavs to close out the series. Avery might not be the right guy for the Atlanta job. I believe the best guy for the Atlanta job is Hubie Brown. Hubie knows basketball at least as good as anybody and EVERYTIME I HEAR HUBIE DOING PLAY-BY-PLAY ANALYIST WORK, MY BASKETBALL IQ GOES UP EVERY TIME I LISTEN TO HUBIE. Hubie once coached for the Hawks back in the early 80s, however, Hubie Brown never worked with a Hawks team as talented as they are now. Back then Hubie had guys with low basketball IQs: Fast Eddie Johnson, Terry Furlow, John Drew, Wayne “Tree” Rollins (pure knuckelheads), but now he would be working some of the best young stars to ever come into the NBA: Jamal Crawford (the assasin); “Big” Al Horford (mini Wilt Chamberlain); Josh Smith (the skywalker), Joe Johnson (the first ballot hall of famer) and Marvin Williams (missing in action). The Hawks are athletic, talented and I would really like to see if Hubie can transform Marvin into a top NBA talent. If anyone could do that it would be Hubie Brown.
Jerry West
May 20th, 2010
11:02 am
resign Joe, draft Alabi, peace out Mo, MLE Matt Barnes (or some role player of that ilk who can play and has some attitude), biennial the Flipster. happy summer.
Samuel
May 20th, 2010
11:04 am
I don’t have a problem with Signing Joe Johnson, in a trade or keep basis. But keep in mind that the Hawks- Have to aquire a hall a famer. A superstar if you will, and some good role players who like the big spot light. This NBA league has proven time after time, that there’s a season and then the playoffs. You have to go to the next level and handle the intense pressure….
Jerry West
May 20th, 2010
11:13 am
Craig,
You’re Hubie Brown. You have health issues that caused you to leave coaching just a few years ago. Do you really want to subject yourself to motivating these guys on a nightly basis? Where’s the UPSIDE?
A.J Price
May 20th, 2010
11:26 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJfEV2tU_pk&feature=related
MikeMitchell
May 20th, 2010
11:27 am
I know who should be the next coach of the Atlanta Hawks. I know he is not a natural born leader, but I believe he should be offered the job because he came to Atlanta when no other great superstar would. JOE JOHNSON SHOULD BE OFFERED THE COACHING JOB FOR THE ATLANTA HAWKS. JOE SHOULD BE MADE A PLAYER-COACH AND GIVEN THE JOB. THE REASON TO DO THIS IS TWOFOLD: #1) THIS WILL CAUSE JOE TO OPEN UP AND BE MORE VOCAL AS A LEADER, AND #2) THIS IS A WAY TO RE-SIGN JOE TO A GOOD CONTRACT AND GIVE HIM A RAISE AT THE SAME TIME SINCE HE NOW WILL HAVE COACHING DUTIES. I know nobody else has explored this option, but I think Joe deserves SOMETHING FOR COMING TO ATLANTA WHEN YOU COULDNT GET THE TOWN DRUNK TO COME PLAY FOR ATLANTA. Reward Joe Johnson by making him player-coach of the Hawks. Coaching problem resovled!
A.J Price
May 20th, 2010
11:27 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY5Hh9SAEjc&feature=related