Hawks Squawks: Hawks 94, Pacers 84
– This one was looking like Philly all over again early. The Pacers got any perimeter shots they wanted while making 6 of 9 3-pointers in the first quarter. Brandon Rush was lighting up J.J. for 4 of 4 3s. The Pacers scored 31 points.
– Tweeted Hawksdawgs of Peachtree Hoops: “The Hawks have closed out on a shooter one time so far, and Mo Evans fouled Troy Murphy for a three point play on that possession.”
– Enter Jamal Crawford. He scored 10 points during the 12-3 run that energized the Hawks. “Now that’s what my team expects of me,” he said. “If I’m not doing that I am kind of throwing everyone else out of wack.”
– It wasn’t just Jamal, it was all the bench guys. Zaza, the Rook’, Mo and Joe Smith all had a hand in limiting the Pacers to 7 of 20 shooting in the second quarter. Shoot, Teague even got up to bloc Danny Granger’s shot on a fastbreak.
– “Our second unit came in and really picked up our defense up and got us going,” Woody said. “I thought that was the difference in the game.”
– Lately it seems Woody is more willing to let the bench guys play, particularly if the starters are going to be so nonchalant about things. The reserves have earned that trust. If the Hawks lose with the reserves playing big minutes but giving big effort, so be it. Better that than to watch the starters just kind of be out there.
– After scoring 31 points on 12 of 21 shooting in the first quarter, the Pacers scored 52 with 21 of 60 over the final three quarters. Yeah, they had a few shots rim out but the Hawks were much more disruptive and cleaned the boards to limit second chances.
– Horford went to work in the third quarter: 12 points, eight rebounds, 6 of 8 shooting. He finished with 18 and 12 for his eight straight double-double. His counterpart, massive Roy Hibbert, couldn’t stay in front of him on defense and wasn’t much of a factor on offense.
– “He’s been consistent from Day One he stepped foot in Atlanta and put on a Hawks uniform,” Woody said of Al. “He’s been fantastic. He’s been on a nice roll here of late by getting the doubles-doubles and we are going to need him to continue to do that.”
– That will be easier to do if the Hawks limit those stretches where they seem to forget about Al. Not so today, when the shot distribution looked nice: 18 for Josh, 14 for Al, 13 for J.J. and 15 for Jamal.
– Smoove helped close out the Pacers with 11 of his 20 points in the fourth. He also had 13 rebounds, two assists and a steal.
– In three games against the Pacers, he’s averaging 20 points and Horford is averaging 25.6. ““We have struggled with them all season,” Pacers coach Jim O’Brien said.
– It had to be encouraging for Woody to highlight a guy on the scouting report and then see the Hawks go out and do a number on him. Granger had dropped 30 or more points in four straight games, including 44 against Utah on Friday. He got just 18 points on 7 of 19 shooting against the Hawks.
– Granger and Brandon Rush credited the Hawks’ switches off screens. Unlike the Sixers, Indiana doesn’t have the combination of size and athleticism to exploit favorable matchups.
–There weren’t many opportunities for Granger to step around a screen and get to the basket or pull up for a jumper. “Atlanta always gives you problems because they switch every ball screen,” Granger said. “We just really didn’t take advantage of the switches like we should have tonight.”
– “Their switching on defense really gave us problems today, which really took us out of our rhythm to make any shots,” Rush said.
– Things got a bit dicey after Woody started pulling starters with a 90-75 lead. I thought he might put guys back in after A.J. Price hit that 3-pointer to cut the lead to 91-84.
– Mo and Mario both had nice hustle plays.
– With nine games to go the Hawks matched their victory total from last season. They didn’t make a big deal about it.
– That’s also eight straight home Ws. They are 30-7 at Philips with five home games to go.
– The Hawks are off Monday but Smoove is scheduled to “work” a shift at Champs Sports at Lenox Square Mall on Monday from 3 to 4 p.m. Smith is to work the cash register and be a personal shopper for select fans. The store also will be giveaway items signed by Smith.
– I’m out, Hawks fans.
MC
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68 comments Add your comment
chris
March 28th, 2010
9:16 pm
First
chris
March 28th, 2010
9:17 pm
good game
chris
March 28th, 2010
9:18 pm
Falcons need Osi Umenyiora
northcyde
March 28th, 2010
9:27 pm
People hate the switching defense, but everytime one of our opponents has a bad shooting night, they blame it on the switching defense.
O'Brien
March 28th, 2010
9:29 pm
Great win Hawks and Woody. We have a tough stretch of games coming up, so hopefully our players will be ready.
northcyde,
The switching defense is very effective depending on the opponent. But when the opposing team is athletic and long (like the Cavs), the switching can (and will be) used against us.
What I would like to see from Woody, is if we are playing a team that is taking advantage of the switching (like Charlotte did, like Milwaukee did), then we need to adjust. But we have not done that.
MC,
The block by Jeff Teague looked like a foul. But Teague deserves credit for getting back on defense like he did. And I give Woody credit for playing his bench guys more. But I would like to see Teague get more second half minutes, if he plays well in the 1st half.
As hot as Crawford was (4-4), he then goes 2-11. Such is the good and bad of Crawford. However, when he is missing like that, i would have liked to see them go to Horford and Josh more.
Marcus
March 28th, 2010
9:30 pm
bro. MC, Hawks have to go 4-1 the rest of the way in AWAY games to meet the above 0.500 goal for contests outside the ATL. Hope we get it done, but we play tough ones in CLE, MIL and CHA.
Better question ………. given that most of the Hawks starters were around for the recent “bad ol’ days” in ‘04, and ‘05 … why have we consistently seen a malaise from them, esp.when playing the bad teams? I would guess at least 4 games like that have resulted in Ls which, on paper, should have been Ws.
Almost like we think we have arrived…….. but we have a short window of opportunity.
Michael Cunningham
March 28th, 2010
9:36 pm
@northcyde and o’brien: i think you both are right on the switching. didn’t notice the Teague foul because i was kinda shocked he even made it back to Granger.
@ marcus: if it’s only 4 flat games over 82, that would actually not be so bad. i think the timing of some of the clunkers has been poor, though.
Ken Strickland
March 28th, 2010
9:49 pm
OBRIEN-todays gm was a perfect example of what I was talking about with Teague’s superior on the ball DEF. His speed, quickness and ability to fight over picks, and/or recover, eliminated the need to switch everything. That allowed everyone to stay in the faces of their original assignments, and eliminate those 3pt baskets they were killing us with early. In fact, Teague’s DEF prevented their PG’s from getting in the lane and dishing to open 3pt shooters. I don’t think they shot another 3 the entire time he was in the gm.
I know this is going to be difficult for you WOODY LOVERS to hear or admit to, but Woodson has to be a boatload of stubborn and stupid to continue thinking it’s advantagous defensively to continuously put Bibby and Crawford in matchups against opposing teams PF’s and C’s under the basket. HOW IN THE HELL CAN ANYONE THAT THINKS WOODSON DESERVES TO BE THE HAWKS HC, BELIEVE IT’S TO OUR ADVANTAGE TO HAVE OUR C OR PF NEAR THE TOP OF THE KEY TRYING TO PREVENT THE OPPOSING GUARD FROM TAKING THEM OFF THE DRIBBLE, WITH BIBBY OR CRAWFORD TRYING TO PROTECT THE RIM WHILE MATCHED UP AGAINST THEIR C OR PF?
With only 10gms left in the season, your beloved consistently inconsistent moron, who’s supposed to be a DEF minde HC, still can’t get it through his thick skull that this philosophy is killing us defensively. It has never worked and it will never work. Let Bibby do the best he can fighting over picks and trying to stay in front of his man. At least if he fails, which he usually does, he’ll have Smoove, Horford, JoSmith or Zaza to back him up.
The way Woodson’s beloved switching DEF usually makes it happen with with Bibby in the gm, is to have our bigs on an island trying to defend against opposing guards while Bibby and/or Crawford back them up in the lane. This is why we’re giving up so many POINTS IN THE PAINT, OFF RB’s and playing poorly on DEF. STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES!
UGA
March 28th, 2010
9:56 pm
Which team do the Hawks want in the first round???
I’d say Milwaukee.
O'Brien
March 28th, 2010
9:59 pm
Ken S,
I did notice that when the bench is in the game (especially the last few games), our defense seems to be better because we’re not forced to switch, and Teague applies better ball pressure at the perimeter.
There were a couple times today when Bibby ended up guarding Troy Murphy. Fortunately, the Pacers are not good enough to exploit our switching.
But in the playoffs, I do think our switching will be exploited.
And if you read my post, I am in favor of Teague getting more minutes in the second half of games if he plays well in the first half (like he has been doing recently).
John Sterling
March 28th, 2010
10:30 pm
Celtics Lose!! AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAHHHHHHH . . .Celtics lose!!
JeJe
March 28th, 2010
10:39 pm
FIRE WOODY
NOT USING TEAGUE IN 2ND HALF UNTIL GARBAGE MINUTES
AWFUL DEFENSIVE COACH WHO SWITCHES BIBBY ONTO HIBBERT.
WHAT A CLUELESS MORON.
PLAYING SWITCH DEFENSE IS RETARDED IF U ARE PLAYING 4 ON 5 (BIBBY DOES NOT COUNT ON DEFENSE).
HOW THE HELL DO U SWITCH BIBBY ONTO GUYS LIKE 7″2980235 HIBBERT OR GRAINGER?
JESUS
JeJe
March 28th, 2010
10:45 pm
“I know this is going to be difficult for you WOODY LOVERS to hear or admit to, but Woodson has to be a boatload of stubborn and stupid to continue thinking it’s advantagous defensively to continuously put Bibby and Crawford in matchups against opposing teams PF’s and C’s under the basket. HOW IN THE HELL CAN ANYONE THAT THINKS WOODSON DESERVES TO BE THE HAWKS HC, BELIEVE IT’S TO OUR ADVANTAGE TO HAVE OUR C OR PF NEAR THE TOP OF THE KEY TRYING TO PREVENT THE OPPOSING GUARD FROM TAKING THEM OFF THE DRIBBLE, WITH BIBBY OR CRAWFORD TRYING TO PROTECT THE RIM WHILE MATCHED UP AGAINST THEIR C OR PF?”
YES
KevinA
March 28th, 2010
11:00 pm
First let’s talk offense. Finally the guards gave up the ball and fed the big’s. The only reason we won the game. The guards had their moments but a diversived offense that we are capable of ruled the day. Unlike most of our loses when we are behind we fed the ball to who was open and did not get away from Al. If we play this style of ball against Orlando – I am not worried. I have faith in Al hitting those jumpers that Howard will give him. Feed him and fan him. Do get this wrong – we need our guards – we need them looking to pass and then hand hitting open jumpers when they collaspe. Then trend is good and we lose when we ignore it.
KevinA
March 28th, 2010
11:03 pm
PS – to many bibby minutes – Woody is forceing limited offense for almost no defense. I want more Teague minutes but just to hand off to JJ and company. He is just a bigger defensive threat than Bibby.
The bar is so low and Woody won’t give the kid a chance to jump over it.
b.j.
March 28th, 2010
11:10 pm
no use in going in to deep with this game we should have won and we did now like jay -z ON TO THE NEXT ONE
Atlanta Fawks
March 28th, 2010
11:49 pm
Here is the thing about Woody I don’t get. He is the head coach right? Well when he sees something he doesn’t like he just shakes his head. They showed it today when instead of running off some clock at the end West throws up a crazy shot. It made no sense but instead of letting him know Woodson just shakes his head!!!! Thats what the fans do because we have no say so to players. But Woody IS the coach and SHOULD let players know when they screw up more than he does!!
Hawks have that player coach comfort zone like Bobby Cox and the Braves players. Which leads to a bunch of swell friends but no championships. Geeeeeeeeez!!! Is it bad I want the Hawks to lose first round so we finally can get a real head coach up in here?
Sleepy
March 28th, 2010
11:51 pm
@ Obrien you cant go off of fg% int regards to Crawford impact . He came in and his energy changed the pace of the game to our favor. He was into the lane every other play and found AL aplenty as he also tallied 6 assists . I think the +20 in the +/- for Jamal really says it all.
As for the defense I dont have a problem with the switching . In fact I love it what I have a problem with is when we use the switching . We are a team that with our lack of a size should be employing 3-4 different defensive styles depending upon the opponent. One of my biggest peeves with the switch is also where is the random trap when you know you have guys who dont want to pass like Salmons .
Patrick
March 29th, 2010
12:07 am
If our plan is to isolate everything on offense and switch everything on defense, I’d rather have Teague in the game than Bibby’s calcified husk. I’m not saying that I agree with the strategy, but if we are going to expose our guards like that on defense than at least put the best defenders out there. What Bibby does better is spot up for threes and makes better passes. But he rarely has the ball in his hands anyway, negating a lot of the second benefit.
I mean, if we get Milwaukee in Round 1 our plan can’t be to stick Bibby in front of Jennings, right?
cp
March 29th, 2010
12:12 am
Yea I still don’t know why when Teague plays well in the first half you don’t see him in the second half until it’s garbage time. He looks a lot more comfortable out there. He is also a better passer than I thought he was coming in the season. The problem is he is usually passing to guys on the second unit who have terrible hands. Would be nice to see him play with the first unit a little more. And I’m with O’Brien, if the switching defense is not working I would like to see some adjustments made. The problem with that is Woody is the coach and Woodson and adjustments don’t usually match.
Grandad
March 29th, 2010
12:59 am
O’B – You’re dead on about opponent.
Indiana, big, relatively slow, shoots alot of threes.
Switching on ball screens gives them fits.
O’B – On the other hand, whatever lineup we have, quick or not,
we switch on every screen. Did you hear/listen to the
Pacer players. ["they switch every ball screen”]
This is what Ken Strickland has been relentlessly dissertating* about
all season. Plus, you, K.S., myself & others agree that stubbornly
refusing [or failing to understand] to make adjustments is what the
problem is and not the scheme itself.
*dissertating: [not a real word] I made it up. Sounds good though.
Hawks Fan In New Orleans
March 29th, 2010
2:43 am
twenty second!!!!
Wabe
March 29th, 2010
2:51 am
Co-sign what Kevin A. wrote about more minutes for JT0.
Wabe
March 29th, 2010
3:00 am
As for the switching defense, there are times when it works really well (IE. Utah), and then there are other games that it kills us. The switching doesn’t bother anybody when it’s working. But, it’s tough to watch us play games where it’s obvious the switching is killing us, yet we continue to switch. It just doesn’t make much sense to me. I just think that in some games, Woody takes too long to make the adjustment and have his guys fight through picks. That would be my only gripe about it.
And again, JT0 needs minutes. It SUCKS to watch him play well in the 1st half and then not get any meaningful minutes in the 2nd half.
Hawk n the Ham
March 29th, 2010
6:37 am
Hey Woody….Start Mo.
Marcus
March 29th, 2010
6:42 am
@ John Sterling, yeahhhh BOS lost!
Now we have to man-up, because our next 2 games are vs. LAL, and @ CLE …. .while their next 2 games are vs. OKC, and vs. HOU …. both of whom are beatable, esp. in the Garden. Neither OKC or HOU have the veteran savvy to lay wood to the C’s like the Spurs did last nite. I hope OKCs young legs run circles around the Celts.
@MC, I hear ya ……. but if you combine the “malaise games” vs. lesser teams and the double-digit 4Q meltdowns (multiple rushed jumper/poor possessions that allowed the opponent back in the game)…. we kinda pi$$ed away at least 6 -8 games over the course of the season.
@ MC, @OB, @ Big Ray, @northcyde, @ Ken S. , @ Astro or any other Hawks pundit much wiser than me (just about everybody
) …
Given this season is 10 game removed form being over, is there any 2010 1st round pick who can make a difference in our glaring weaknesses as a team for next season?
O'Brien
March 29th, 2010
6:58 am
One of the contributing factors to the effectiveness of the switching is the players must be focused and sharp. And we dont always get that from them. Sometimes they are too slow, and no energy. But sometimes, teams will run the pick and roll until they get the matchup they want. Like Manu on Josh, Felton on Josh, Ridnour over Horford.
Milwaukee took advantage of the switching, The Spurs tok advantage of the switching, and the Bobcats took advantage of the switching. We were fortunate enough to win two of those games, but we could have easily lost all 3.
The switching works very often. But when it doesn’t, we need to adjust. And Woody has not done that. Maybe we can switch everything except Bibby’s guy. Or if we do switch Bibby’s guy, only switch with JJ. Anyways, I’m not a coach, so I ‘m sure there are other options.
As for the game, this was a much needed win for the Hawks. I like the shot distribution, and once we got going in the second quarter, we never looked back. Combined with the Celtics loss, we still have a chance at the #3 seed. I think Orlando is a better matchup for us than Cleveland, so we need to stay focused.
We do have 5 road games left, so that will not be easy. But this is where players should show us how serious they are about finishing strong, and getting that 3 seed. No excuses.
Marcus
March 29th, 2010
7:02 am
loaded question above
I am liking Baylors Udoh (PF), and of course, my previous favs in St. Mary’s O. Samhan (C/F), Miss. State’s J. Varnardo (PF), Villanova’s S. Reynolds (combo G), and FSU’s S. Alabi (C).
Really likes Udoh’s game vs. Duke yesterday. I could see him coming off the bench on 2nd team PF.
Marcus
March 29th, 2010
7:05 am
hey just a thought: could Marvin be a better 6ht/7th man than starter?
Saw a special yesterday on NBA TV about March Madness winners in NBA and they flashed Marvin and his Class of ‘05. ON that NC team, he was a 6th man….and then he dipped after 1 season in college.
Have we ever tried him as 1st/2nd off the bench instead of entrenched as a starter (most likely because of his draft position and $$$) vs. fit?
Clyde
March 29th, 2010
8:24 am
FIRE WOODY
ILL-logical
March 29th, 2010
8:41 am
IF the rumors about the BASG are true-they are trying to sell the teams- then the recent court decision regarding the judgement against TBS awarding $281 million to Mr. McDavid could be the answer to the Hawks(and Thrashers)problems.
Normally the phrase Texas used car salesman would be cause for concern but now here is a guy who in addition to the money he had originally had to bid on the teams, he now has 281 large of house money!
Imagine what a well funded, single owner Hawks’ franchise could achieve.No more begging free agents to come; a D-league franchise to devlope players; a proffessional marketing staff and program; and color analysts who can use good grammer. Think a total re-do from top to bottom with one objective in mind: winning a championship,now!
JeJe
March 29th, 2010
8:42 am
FIRE WOODSON
To play this retarded switch game, ending up with Bibby on Granger or Thabeet is RETARDED.
Also, can Teague not penetrate the lane more? he always has opportunities, but just runs around the 3 pt line, rather than trying to get in the lane
Banks
March 29th, 2010
9:25 am
Did the Hawks win last night? Why are you clowns so negative. We are on the verge of winning 50 games. I know things have not been perfect, but give the team some credit when they win. Stop acting like miserable Philly fans
Joe4
March 29th, 2010
9:33 am
Is Morris hurt? Dropped from any playing time.
Mike is Back
March 29th, 2010
9:35 am
MC, great stuff!!
That was a very entertaining game. I the grandson with me…he is three yrs old. The last time he came to the game Sky Hawk high five him. This time Sky Hawk didn’t work the crowd, and he didn’t come out to end of the game. He kept looking for Sky Hawk…I told him there go Harry what about him…the way he looked at me…I said to myself Dang…where the F is Sky Hawk. lol
That was great hustle play by Teague…I enjoyed seeing old Solo…we had a great time!!
KEEP IT GOING…GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Grandad
March 29th, 2010
10:01 am
Marcus:
Udoh, if he falls to us. I posted his name last wk./[nba draft.net]
currently has him going to us. He may very well go much higher.
If we could trade up somehow, Xavier Henry would be some salve, should
Joe sign elsewhere.
Late 2nd or FA, Zoubek, 7-1/260, makes sense. Banger, who could help
interior defense, cost very little, excellent passer, and really BIG.
Probably would have better stats @ a diferent school, however, fundamentals are impeccable.
If he comes out this yr. – Keith Benson, 6-11: Oakland. [2nd round]
I like what AJ said: “late 1st – get a niche player”. Someone who can
contribute and not just sit on the end of the bench and eat biscuits
with Collins. The last part was mine. AJ said the intelligent part.
wordy
March 29th, 2010
10:22 am
Dammit missed the game.
I don’t think it matters who we play 1st round. We will win the series. Round 2 doesn’t matter either because if we manage to beat either Cle or Orl there we will just see the other in the next round.
Najeh Davenpoop
March 29th, 2010
11:50 am
Depending on the opponent, the switching defense is not necesaarily bad. The Hawks are much more versatile than most teams, and the switching often puts Josh in position to get steals and create transition opportunities. But patient teams that have good screeners who can shoot will exploit the hell out of it. I have no problem using the switching defense as the base scheme, but the Hawks need to be more flexible during the playoffs so that they are not stuck employing this strategy when it is not working. They showed that they can be flexible against Orlando; in that game, they used a modified switching D where occasionally they would rotate back to the pre-screen matchup, depending on who was defending. This ensured that only Josh, Al, or Zaza were ever guarding Dwight Howard in the post.
vava74
March 29th, 2010
11:55 am
Since draft talk is a hot topic right now, maybe you guys will find this article interesting.
Bill Simmons @ ESPN’s page 2. Entertaining as always and with a small reference to Marvin Williams:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100326
JeJe
March 29th, 2010
12:06 pm
Watching Harry the Hawk celebrate after the buzzer beaters is by far the highlight of this season for me. Just awesome to watch
GeeMack
March 29th, 2010
12:12 pm
vava74,
We gave up the superstar that was needed to win a championship, and fill the building each night for a complimentary player.
O'Brien
March 29th, 2010
1:09 pm
Najeh,
I’m with you. The switching can be very effective, and give certain teams fits. But certain teams are able to take advantage of it, so Hawks must be willing and able to adjust in the playoffs.
I think the switching is part of the reason why we get outrebounded the way we do. Our bigs are out of position sometimes, and when they are in position, they dont give the effort needed to box out.
vava,
I like reading Bill Simmons too because his articles are usually interesting (not necessarily true). but his Marvin Williams refernce was on point.
“Along those same lines: UNC’s Marvin Williams couldn’t start for the 2005 national champs, but some experts wrote it off as “That’s all right, those guys were loaded!” and maintained that he was a top-three talent. Really? HE COULDN’T START FOR HIS COLLEGE TEAM!
When we watched him play six straight games at the highest level, never — not at any point — did I feel like I was watching the No. 2 pick in the 2005 draft. I thought I was watching a complementary player. Like Aldrich, actually. If alpha-dog tendencies don’t creep out during March Madness, they aren’t creeping out at the next level. Sorry.”
It seems to me that Bill Simmons was right on this occasion. I really dont know what media and GMs around the league saw to make Marvin a consensus top 2 pick. I dont get it. The guy was a 6th man in college, and I dont recall seeing any monster games from him. Plus, at one time, he said he did not even watch a lot of basketball. I didn’t like that.
And if you look at the guys who played in front of him on that Carolina team, Sean May, Jawad Williams, Rashad McCants etc., I can’t help but wonder if he was supposed to be that good, how does Marvin not start for his college team?
vava74
March 29th, 2010
1:37 pm
OB,
Well, there is nothing we can do and if we forget that he went #2, we can at least accept him as being a serviceable rotation player. Maybe next year he will get better.
I had been giving him quite some slack but after seeing him clumsily trying and failing to back down Kapono in Philla, I have lost the little respect I still had for him.
I still think that Shelden was a bigger blunder than Marvin since it was pretty obvious that, being an undersized C and a senior (talent capped), his game would not translate well into the pros.
Marvin’s problem seems to be precisely what his remarks indicated: he lacks passion for the game.
He is not disinterested: Sekou reported that he stayed late working in his game after the others left but he doesn’t seem to be able to carry that onto the court.
Big Ray
March 29th, 2010
1:46 pm
“Atlanta always gives you problems because they switch every ball screen,” Granger said. “We just really didn’t take advantage of the switches like we should have.”
Now what does that tell you? When I read the first sentence, it tells me that the switch defense works fine against bad teams, like the Pacers.
Then you read the second sentence. Guess what? All it takes is one good player to figure out how to beat the switch defense. Indy has a couple of good players, and not much else, so they weren’t able to “take advantage of it”, as Granger suggested.
As the article mentions, Philly didn’t have a problem with our switch defense. Philly is not a very good team, but they have the personnel to take advantage of the style of defense we play.
cp
March 29th, 2010
1:53 pm
The problem I had with drafting Marvin other than thinking he wasn’t even better than Jawad Williams, the guy who started over him was the fact that he wasn’t even in shape during the workouts. It was reported how he couldn’t even finish one workout because he was so out of shape. That told me then that maybe he did not have the worth ethic or didn’t care enough because all the experts had him going high anyway.. I watched a lot of North Carolina games that year and I always felt like Jawad was way better than Marvin. I never understood the hype.
Big Ray
March 29th, 2010
2:10 pm
Najeh ,
I agree. Have to be more flexible on defense. The thing is, we have to be more flexible AND sharp when we switch to a more traditional defensive posture.
As always, it requires a concerted effort. Why? Because the switch defense is used (at least in our case) to hide the more deficient defenders we have. Switching back to a man defense or a zone won’t do us any more good if all five guys aren’t putting forth the effort.
Effort may not always result in the effect you want, but it gives you a much better chance at effectively defending or making defensive plays (or simply preventing an offensive play) than lack of effort does.
There is no defensive concept that can hide or make up for a lack of effort. That is what can be so frustrating about this team. If just one guy takes a play off, we can and often do, get bulldozed on the play.
Big Ray
March 29th, 2010
2:23 pm
CP,
With Marvin, I never saw the point in drafting a college player that high, when he was coming off of his team’s bench.
I understand the guy has “all kinds of potential”, and all the other buzz words. The problem is, you go with potential like that if the kid is coming out of high school, because then….potential is all you have to work with, all you have to go on.
But once you’ve seen them go from high school to college, you now have more hard data. When you’re talking potential, you need to be talking about a guy who is so good, he has to start. Yeah, sure, in college, upper classmen have the experience, so they are more likely to start. Guess what? The best programs know that if an underclassman is simply better, then THAT’S the kid you put in the starting lineup. Marvin was good, but Jawad was good enough that Marvin was a luxury to have off the bench.
Look at other college freshmen such as Mike Beasley, Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony. There was no doubt to their talent, and the programs they played for were serious basketball programs. Potential or no, Marvin never had me thinking “superstar” by a long stretch. To me, he was another talented guy with height and length, who could shoot. But he wasn’t that hard charger that demands that you play him as much as you can.
Accepting him for what he is, is all fine and good. At some point, management has to figure out if he’s a part of what helps us go forward, or if he’s an asset to use, for the purposes of helping us get better.
Grandad
March 29th, 2010
2:45 pm
vava74:
[Ken Stricland,R.f.C.P.,Big Ray,O'B,Sautee,drmaryb]
may want to read this as well. With all due respect:
(I know I left off many many of my new friends)
vava:
As always you’re on point.
Thanks again for the heads up on BS’ book.
I agree 100% on the SW selection being worse.
O’B, I think part of the reason Marv was not a starter, all those
others were seniors & if I’m not mistaken they all were drafted.
Roy is a little like Willie Martinez (loyalty to seniors).
Nonetheless, Marv:
[I'm a broken record I know]
Yesterday, I only saw, the 4th qtr.
Marv – flashed to the high post 3 times and made 2 mid range jumpers.
Marv, posted Hibbert[?]low, made a hybrid Sikma/McHale turnaround
fade away post move & made the shot.
This next observation if anybody ever picks up on it I want the credit:
Marvin plays like a white guy. (not a compliment)
Pistol Pete in reverse!
So – Wdsn needs to recognize this & not try to make him into Pippin.
Silk purse…you know the cliche.
Also defensively:
Marv’s got a big butt and and arms 8 in. longer than his hgt.
[Marv bare ft. 6-7, wingspan 7-3]
The reason I brought up his phys. characteristics are he is stronger in his lower body than upper body, yet tremendous length.
He would be a good to exceptional, on ball, post defender.
[Opposed to Josh who is a great help side defender/shot blocker.]
Marv’s lower body strength works for him. [coupled with length.]
He did a nice job on Hibbert[7-2],when defending the low post yesterday. So – “What the heck, give it a try”.
My main complaint with Wdsn [besides being obtuse] is failure to adapt or failure to make adjustments [in game].
WITH MARV: Wdsn I fear is trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. (Playing him on the wing when he is OBVIOUSLY not a slasher)
Wdsn does this in other cases:
I’ll list only one – running his beloved swithing def. regardless of who is on the floor.
Anyway, I recon my point is, Marv is an asset and we should try to maximize our assets. Whoops, I stumbled onto another Wdsn foible:
failure to maximize assets, oh well.
GeeMack
March 29th, 2010
2:46 pm
Big Ray
At some point, management has to figure out if he’s a part of what helps us go forward, or if he’s an asset to use, for the purposes of helping us get better.
I can help them with that decision. He’s an asset to help us get better. The also must realize along with JJ contract this summer Horford is a restricted free agent, and teams are going to come after Horford.
So while the Hawks are slowly building we could lose both JJ and Horford to free agency.
Grandad
March 29th, 2010
2:58 pm
Switching & reckon / typo not spelling.
I could win a spelling bee.
I could never be a stenographer.
recognizing my assets.
Lacsho
March 29th, 2010
3:06 pm
Ray, I always wondered if Marvin didn’t start in college, why would you start him over a 4 year college player like Chills?
SMH Woodrow Please!!!!!
Ken Strickland
March 29th, 2010
3:13 pm
MARCUS-The biggest weakness for the Hawks is HC Mike Woodson, and no draft pick can correct that. In fact, with Woodson as our HC, there’s very little chance that a draft pick will even be given a chance to resolve any of our problems. Now, playing MBibby more than 15 to 20MPG and limiting JTeague to less than 10MPG is the next biggest problem. Getting rid of Woodson is the only way to resolve either problem.
Remember, there are only 3 draft picks(Smoove, Marvin and Horford) remaining on the roster from Woodson’s previous 5 drafts, which has included numerous lottery and high 1st and 2nd rd picks. He’s done a lousy job of developing and retaining draft picks over the last 5yrs, especially backcourt players, and has done a lousy job of developing and utilizing this yrs 1st rd pick, PG JTeague.
cp
March 29th, 2010
3:13 pm
Great post Ray. With guys like Durant and Beasley you watched the at times in college and said wow he is going to be special or wow that kid is going to be a problem once he reaches the NBA. With Marvin I never said any of that while watching him at UNC. I thought he was a young average player on a loaded team. As far as management goes I think they are going to give him at least another year. They might feel that he is pressuring himself because of the deal. I doubt he has much trade value but I would love for us to bring in a guy like Travis Outlaw to battle Marvin for the starting spot. He needs some competition or something to light a fire under him. The problem with that is will Woodson start Outlaw if he is outplaying Marv. There were times I felt like Chills should have been starting and Marv should have been the one coming off the bench………..Grandad that has been one of the main issues I have had with Woodson as a coach and its his lack of adjusting and trying new things. Rarely will he try another method to a problem. I like your ideas for Marvin but we have a coach who is known for trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Sometimes its as if Woodson has a set plan for something and he will not detour away from it regardless of whats the outcome.
northcyde
March 29th, 2010
3:27 pm
By the way . . . paid attendance at Indiana game
Sunday afternoon game . . no traffic . . 3:30 start
16,646
Actually higher than what I thought it would be. Still not a sell out, and I don’t know what the actual attendance was . . . but 16,000 for Indiana is good.
30th home win for the Hawks. Good job guys. Keep it rolling.
GeeMack
March 29th, 2010
3:35 pm
Hawks fans that are disatisfied with Woody.
What type coach would you like to see come in here?
Also what results would you expect from a new coach with the same roster?
I agree with most of you that Teague should get more burn, and the swithching defense should be adjusted to fight to force our guard to fight over picks. However I don’t think a coach that’s improved each year in wins and loses should fired at the end of the season.
northcyde
March 29th, 2010
3:39 pm
Woody made the right call in starting Marvin over Childress, and I tell you why. Our bench back in those days were SORRY. Chill provided that needed spark off the bench, much like what Crawford does now.
If Marvin was put in that same situation, could he provide that spark? And don’t just say YES just to be saying it. Think it out.
- Marvin isn’t good at creating his own shot, but he can draw fouls and get to the line on occasion
- Marvin is nowhere near the hustle player that Chill was, so his impact on the middle part of a game would be less than what Chill gave.
- At that time, Marvin was a MUCH BETTER outside shooter than Childress. This was one reason why JJ was able to average 5+ assist as a Hawk in his first 4 years here.
But while Marvin may have started games, it didn’t necessarily mean that he would finish games. Chill finished a lot of games for us, while Marvin was cheerleading on the bench. Woody would routinely go with the guy who was playing the best down the stretch, and go with him at SF.
It’s the same situation you see now with Bibby, Marvin, and Crawford. Whichever of the 2 is playing the best down the stretch, Woody will go with those 2 on most occasions.
VenomSpitter
March 29th, 2010
4:22 pm
I wouldn’t even allow Marvin to be my garbageman.
Grandad
March 29th, 2010
4:31 pm
GeeMack:
Responding to your question.
The more I watch Izzo, the more I think he would be the kind
of college coach who could run a pro team. He sure as heck can
coach in March. We made a run @ him a few yrs. back, maybe now
the time is right to try again.
Najeh Davenpoop
March 29th, 2010
4:32 pm
Wishing for Marvin to live up to his draft status is pointless. He’s been in the league for five years and has shown no sign of being able to do so, and the best thing for us to do is move on from those expectations.
I’ll admit, when Marvin was drafted I gave him the benefit of the doubt big time — in fact, I remember comparing the Marvin over CP3 pick to the Timberwolves choosing young, raw, talented forward Kevin Garnett over the more accomplished, undersized PG Damon Stoudamire in 1995, and mentioning how Stoudamire took the league by storm when he started while KG ended up being the better player. Not saying I expected Marvin to be KG, but I definitely thought he would go a lot farther towards justifying his draft status than he has. I thought he could be a more athletic Antawn Jamison. Obviously, he’s come nowhere close.
Of course, knowing Billy Knight’s affinity for shapely rear ends, it’s not too surprising he was, uh, attracted to Marvin during that draft.
Right now, the Hawks’ coaching staff needs to accept the reality that Marvin is basically untradeable with his contract, and develop his 3-point shooting and man-to-man defense so that he can be the role player the Hawks need at the small forward position. Bringing in someone to challenge him this offseason is fine, but the chances of bringing in someone who is a significant upgrade and is also affordable are not too great.
O'Brien
March 29th, 2010
4:39 pm
northcyde,
Crawford has said it doesnt matter who starts. It’s all about minutes played, and who is in the end the game at the end. So I agree with both you and him.
Starting Marvin is ok, because Chills got regular minutes, and was usually in the game at the end (instead of Marvin). The thing that bothers me about that, is how does Sund offer Marvin 5 year, $37.5 mil, but yet (according to Chills), Sund told Chills to go out and find an offer. I wish Sund had told that to Marvin, because nobody was offering Marvin a starting position at that salary.
Najeh,
I am over the fact that Marvin was drafted #2. What bothers me is the contract we gave him.
Ken S,
“Remember, there are only 3 draft picks(Smoove, Marvin and Horford) remaining on the roster from Woodson’s previous 5 drafts, which has included numerous lottery and high 1st and 2nd rd picks.” Ken S.
Although I have been very critical of Woody, BK deserves the blame for some of the players he gave Woody to work with.
cp,
“As far as management goes I think they are going to give him at least another year. They might feel that he is pressuring himself because of the deal.”
Does it look like Marvin is putting pressure on himself out there? If he was pressuring himself, there would be more aggressiveness. He would take more shots. He would show more passion on the court. It looks to me like he drifts in and out of games, and is content just to help out in whatever way he can (he is a good cheerleader on the bench).
I remember reading/hearing that Marvin was out of shape for the Hawks workout. And I also remember reading/hearing that Chris Paul had a good workout with us. Ouch. It hurts typing that.
Vava,
“Well, there is nothing we can do and if we forget that he went #2, we can at least accept him as being a serviceable rotation player. Maybe next year he will get better.”
The problem is, I don’t think you should pay a serviceable rotation player $7.5 mil annually.
northcyde
March 29th, 2010
4:56 pm
Marcus, when you talk about guys who may be available at the spot we’d pick in, 2 guys stand out in my mind.
Jarvis Varnado – Mississippi St.
Wayne Chism – Tennessee
Popular to contrary belief, switching coaches isn’t the major thing lacking in this team. It’s quality depth overall that’s lacking . . especially in the frontcourt.
So instead of doing like we did last year, and passing on a good frontcourt player like Dejuan Blair, we must take the best available frontcourt guy left on the board. And depending on what you want, Varnado or Chism should be the guy.
Varnado is the defensive PF that a team like us could desperately use on that 2nd unit. I could easily see him having a “Birdman” Chris Anderson effect ( who plays for Denver ) on that 2nd unit. Joe Smith will be gone at the end of the year, and we’ll need a PF anyway. Varnado is the all time shot blocker in NCAA history. He’s a better shot blocker than Smoove.
What may make him avaliable to us is the fact that he’s only like 210 pounds ( very thin for the NBA ) and he is limited offensively. But he’s the type of athlete that could fourish in Woody’s defensive system because he’ll be able to swich on perimeter players and get back inside to block shots. Varnado and Smoove would make life difficult for opponents in defense.
**********
If you want the all-arouind talent, Chism is your guy. Offensively, he’s more versatile than Varnado because of his ability to score in the post, and also his ability to shoot the ball from the outside ( up to 23 feet ).
Chism isn’t going to WOW people with his athleticism, but he has a high basketball IQ ans has skills to match. And like Varnado, he’ll have no problem employing Woody’s defensive system, because Tennessee runs a similar style of defense that the Hawks run. The exception with the Vols, is that they have enough sense to switch back if the guy with the ball isn’t looking to score.
*******
So at that backup PF position, I’m looking for a guy that can give us 10 . . possibly 15 good minutes a game from that spot, without having to need the ball to be effective.
Varnado is the #1 choice . . . Chism #2.
GermanShepperd
March 29th, 2010
5:13 pm
How about that Zsa Zsa Pachulia? He had an awesome game against the Pacers. When he comes in and plays with passion, he become another lethal weapon on the Hawks BIGS. Pachulia is a student of the game because in the pacers game he made two shots that reminded me of two of the all-time games. Pachulia on one sequence ran through the paint and threw up a sky hook like Kareem Abdul Jabaar. On another sequence he ran the fastbreak and threw a behind-the-back pass to Josh Smith exactly the same as Pistol Pete Maravich. Pachula seems to have a brilliant array of replications of many of the all-time greats. Its amazing what this superb supersub hawk has pulled out of his magic bag of tricks. The Magic Man strikes again!
The Truth
March 29th, 2010
6:32 pm
The Hawks checkered trade and draft past:
In 1993, The Hawks traded Dominique Wilkins, who remains the franchise all-time leading scorer, for Danny Manning, who quickly left via free agency to Phoenix after the season ended.
In 1999, the Hawks traded Steve Smith who had recently been awarded the J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Award for his charitable endeavors to Portland for (pot smoking) Isaiah Rider and Jim Jackson. When Rider showed up late for a March game, the Hawks released him. The Hawks later traded Jackson away the following season.
In 2001, the Hawks drafted Spanish star Pau Gasol 3rd , but his rights were ceded to the Memphis Grizzlies in a trade involving Shareef Abdur-Rahim. In 2008 Gasol was traded to the Lakers. He was the second best Lakers in points (16.9), rebounds (9.3) and assists per game (4.0). He also led the team in blocks per game (1.90) and was tied with Lamar Odom with the most postseason double-doubles. Gasol then won his first NBA championship ring when the Lakers defeated the Orlando Magic in the 2009 NBA Finals.
In 2004 the Hawks traded Jason Terry (their 1st round pick), Alan Henderson, and a future 1st round pick to the Mavericks for Antoine Walker, and Tony Delk. In 2006, Terry helped his team advance to the NBA Finals for the first time in franchise history
In February 2004, the Hawks had the distinction of having NBA All-Star Rasheed Wallace play one game for the team. Wallace was traded from Portland to the Hawks along with Wesley Person for Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Theo Ratliff, and Dan Dickau.
In the 2006 Draft, the Hawks selected former Duke Star Shelden Williams with the fifth overall pick (enough said).
In 2010 Hawks fans are still stuck over the second pick in the 2005 NBA Draft, the Atlanta Hawks selected Marvin Williams of the University of North Carolina.
As you can see, this is certainly not the only anomaly of this franchise. Put in its proper prospective, the Marvin pick should rank small compared to some of other Hawk deals from the franchise past. You can certainly find more trades and draft-picks to whine about then Marvin.
JeJe
March 29th, 2010
6:49 pm
“The problem I had with drafting Marvin other than thinking he wasn’t even better than Jawad Williams, the guy who started over him was the fact that he wasn’t even in shape during the workouts. It was reported how he couldn’t even finish one workout because he was so out of shape. That told me then that maybe he did not have the worth ethic or didn’t care enough because all the experts had him going high anyway.. I watched a lot of North Carolina games that year and I always felt like Jawad was way better than Marvin. I never understood the hype.”
Nothing has changed. Watch Marvin’s interviews — listen to the rumors –> The guy does not want to be a star in this league. He is content with being average. He has no fire in his personality/game –> He doesn’t want the ball down the stretch. He doesn’t want plays run for him. He’s frail/awkward. He is not strong…He’s not a good defender.
he is the worst starting SF in the NBA, and Bibby is probably a bottom 5 starting PG
Blast
March 29th, 2010
7:23 pm
Y’all notice that the starters seems to switch more than when 5 bench players are in the game? Because of Bibby? I noticed last game in one possession, Mike did well to fight and stay with his man, but on that same play, Mike switched and ended up guarding Indiana’s center.
Hawks just have to know when to switch and when to stay with their man, no matter how hard it is.
Ken Strickland
March 29th, 2010
11:15 pm
OBRIEN-in a couple of instances, BK drafted a certain player because Woody didn’t want the player(S) he wanted to draft. BK wanted to run an uptempo fastbreaking style of OFF and drafted bigs capable of playing that style, and he wanted a PG that was capable of running that style. Woody wanted a slower halfcourt perimeter style of OFF and wanted a veteran PG to run his preferred style of OFF.
It was Woodson who didn’t want any part of CP3 or DWilliams, and publically stated his doubts about their ability to be successful at this level. That forced BK to draft someone else. I think BK got fed up and drafted ALaw, against Woodson’s wishes, and Woody took his dissatisfaction out on Acie, which likely contributed to the rift between Woodson and BK. In the end BK relented and traded for MBibby, which was what Woody wanted all along.
Woodson will play any veteran PG into the ground, like AJohnson, TLue and Bibby, no matter what, but make one excuse after another for not playing or developing younger PG’s. If the younger PG’s play excellent DEF, but aren’t excellent outside shooters, like ALaw and JTeague, he uses their limited shooting ability as his excuse. If the younger PG can shoot, but doesn’t play good DEF, like SStaudemire, he uses that as his excuse. But, if it’s a veteran PG, it doesn’t matter whether they can or can’t shoot or play DEF, he’ll play them into the ground regardless. STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES.
GEEMACK-virtually all Hawk fans, that aren’t WOODY LOVERS, are way past the days when our major goal was to increase the previous yrs win total. Our major concern now is to increase or win total and accomplishments in the playoffs. We were elated when we 1st made the playoffs, with a losing record, and took the Celtics to 7gms in a 1st rd playoff loss. We were also elated last yr when we earned the 4th seed and squeezed past the Heat in a 1st rd series, only to get embarrassed in the 2nd rd sweep.
We can’t keep using the past as an excuse for holding on to a HC that hasn’t progressed enough to help the team get to the next level. Or, doesn’t think fast enough and often enough to recognize the need to make adjustments and changes, notice when something isn’t working, or effectively and consistently utilizing the talents of certain players on his bench.
The question that needs to be asked now is, can Woodson make the adjustments, changes, and employ the strategy that will surely be needed during the playoffs? He certainly hasn’t demonstrated that ability during the last 72 gms of the regular season. WOODY LOVERS have to get it through your heads that we can’t keep awarding Woodson contract extensions based on the fact he started with 13wins and limited talent, and increased our win total each yr, as former GM Billy Knight continuously added talent.
vava74
March 30th, 2010
8:37 am
Grandad,
Thanks for the props on the previous blog.
On Tom Izzo:
I only saw a Michigan State’s game around 3 weeks ago and I did not particularly liked what I saw from a player movement / set plays point of view, however, it wasn’t a good enough sample to know if Izzo has the tools to be a HC in the pros or not.
I also did not get a feeling on how he manages his players, however, I follow Charley Rosen’s column @ foxsports closely and he constantly puts college coaches in perspective:
basically he says that college coaches benefit from the fact that college players need their coaches – to “like” them and to play them and consequently have to obey and withstand abuse to accomplish that – whilst pro players earn more money that the coaches and sometimes “have to play” due to orders from above which means that they don’t particularly need the HC (it has been said by many, including one of the best coaches – Chuck Daly – that the NBA is a players’ league).
This means that the typical college coaching style: shouting and abusing players establishing authority does not translate well into the pros.
I believe that there are many examples of successful college coaches that failed miserably in the pros and only a few examples of the contrary.
Employee #24 Supporter
March 30th, 2010
12:42 pm
Employee #24 has a ton of upside potential. He seems to be uninspired and appears lazy and totally unmotivated to improve. He knows that he has a starting position and so far, his starting status has not been jeapardized. If Marvin (or I should say Employee #24) believed his starting job is being taken from him or being threatened in any way, Marvin would be productive and would probably outperform everybody else. Marvin has no incentive to get better. He makes millions of dollars, is rich and doesnt care to get better. Again, if Marvin felt that he were to lose his job tomorrow, Marvin would perform better than Kobe or LaBron, but Marvin feels completely content with being MEDIOCRE and Employee #24 feels satisfied to do nothing, exert little or no energy whatsoever and continually get paid for it.