Hawks squawks: Hawks 86, Magic 84
Greetings, all-
some quick thoughts -
- One of the plays of the game was Dwight Howard’s getting called for a moving screen on Jamal Crawford in the first quarter. Howard was having his way to that point and the Hawks looked tentative. It was 20-10 near the end of the first quarter. By the time he got back in, with 9:34 to go in the second, it was 24-23 and the Hawks had some confidence going.
- I’m with Najeh. The Hawks defended the 3-pointer better and the numbers would indicate as much. The Magic came into the game on a roll from 3-point range and shot 6 for 21. Howard got his – 19 points, 24 (!) rebounds – but he had to work for it. He was 4 for 11 from the field and went to the line 16 times.
Al Horford: “We did a good job on him tonight. We made him work, earn most of the stuff he got. But he’s an All-Star player, so he’s going to go out there and get his.”
- I echo some of the questions about why Jason Collins didn’t play. It seemed like a spot where he would have been useful.
- Magic players got a little salty afterwards, notably Matt Barnes, who was pulled with 5:38 to go. From the Orlando Sentinel:
“(Stan Van Gundy) obviously must not trust me down the stretch. Only thing I can think of. I’m knocking down 3s, I’m playing D, I’m rebounding. I couldn’t believe it,” Barnes said. “I could see it if the person I’m coming out for is cooking or something but that wasn’t really the case tonight.
“It’s very frustrating to sit on the bench the last five minutes when I held Joe to 13 points. It’s very frustrating.”
- As I noted in my game story, Josh Smith’s heroics were necessary because the Hawks nearly gave the game away. After Mike Bibby hit a 3-pointer to put the Hawks up 73-64 with 10:37 to go, they made just one out of their next 10 shots (until Smith’s putback) and turned the ball over four times. And Smith’s jumper was the only basket! (Excellent timing on MC’s last blog. I’ll be curious to see what effect that this has.)
Josh: “I’m just confident in my all-around game. If it’s there, I’ll take it.”
He also said that he doesn’t hear the fans shouting “NO!!!” when he sets up to take jumpers.
Al: “We have to execute better down the stretch, there’s no question about it.”
Second team did its job. Mo Evans (10 points), Zaza Pachulia (took his turn on Howard), Jeff Teague (filthy bounce pass on the break) and Crawford (11 points, four assists) all helped the cause.
Josh: “Definitely give credit to the second unit. Mo Evans was outstanding in the first half, guys like Zaza, who was in there doing dirty things that we need him to do (Josh laughed at this point). It really helped us out.”
- If you’re wondering, the Hawks are now 3.5 back of Orlando. If the Hawks run the table, they’d finish 57-25. Orlando would have to go 6-4 to finish behind them. Obviously, don’t see it happening.
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271 comments Add your comment
Grandad
March 25th, 2010
6:51 pm
drmaryb: well stated.
You will love “The Book of Basketball” by ‘Bill Simmons’
‘vava74′ talked about it on this blog. Got it for Christmas.
Great read if you get a chance.
drmaryb
March 25th, 2010
7:04 pm
BirdDawg
Please name the last five teams to win a championship?
Who was the starting center on those teams?
If not a great center? Then how many All-Stars were there?
drmaryb
March 25th, 2010
7:08 pm
The real bloggers on here know me & have known me for some for years.
I have so much fun on here, I just don’t have time to read everyone’s post, because I own two offices.
So, I scroll past people I have never heard of, nothing personal.
However, I like to pull hair and I like it when you guys pull my hair too! I don’t care if you call me an idiot or stupid, I have plenty of self-esteem and confidence and I know who I am.
I do like a good, heated, back & forth debate with a little name-calling though! Does that make me a little freaky? Probably, so go ahead and dunk on me! i’ll be your poster-child! lol!
drmaryb
March 25th, 2010
7:09 pm
Oh yeah! I fight dirty!
WolfmanJack
March 25th, 2010
7:22 pm
The Hawks already have an all-star center. Al Horford is “the force” in the middle. When Al Horfords game fully develops next season, Al will be as good or better than Wilt Chamberlain. “Big” Al, Rock On Brother!
Grandad
March 25th, 2010
7:22 pm
W/O addressing anyone in particular:
Sometimes teams have an exceptional “BIG” even if he
is not listed as a [5]. Examples:
*Duncan (really a Center I don’t care what anyone says)
*Garnett
*Gasol
These are only recent examples.
I love Big Al & Josh. I still wish they had a ‘BIG’ Tag-teammate!
More & more I’m thinking an outside [3 pt. shooting] Big.
Not another medium sized big, but a really BIG, Big.
Much like Big ‘Z’ would have been had that ship not sailed.
Could there be a small schism in Dallas in Dallas leaving open the
possibility of a Haywood signing this summer.
I know, I know, he’s not a shooter but he is a defender who seems
to have reinvented himself with conditiong.
Now I’m off to watch college ball. G’day.
BirdDawg
March 25th, 2010
7:24 pm
Drmaryb,
Let’s see,
2009 Los Angeles Lakers, starting at center Pau Gasol, great player, but not a “legitimate center”.
2008 Boston Celtics, starting center Kendrick Perkins, serviceable at best and hardly an All Star.
2007 San Antonio Spurs, starting center Francisco Elson, ARE YOU EFFING KIDDING ME?!
2006 Miami Heat, starting cener, Shaquille O’Neal, well past his prime, but still good so I’ll give you that one.
2005 San Antonio Spurs, starting center Tim Duncan, another great.
I would also like to mention the many Bulls and Pistons teams that won several championships with starting centers like Bill Laimbeer and Bill Cartwright. Servicable at best. None other than Tim Duncan were appreciably better than Al Horford at the time they won their championships and most of them didn’t play as well as Horford is now. Also, to give you credit, several of these teams had up to 3 All Stars. but by your own admission the Hawks have at least 3 All Star Caliber players in Horford, Johnson, and Smith(didn’t even mention Jamal, but I could have, lol). I’ll say it again, this team has the talent to win the Championship right now, just not the coaching.
Grandad
March 25th, 2010
7:30 pm
WolfmanJack:
I couldn’t let that one go.
Seriously – ‘Wilt’!
A bit of hyperbole, perhaps !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
19 exclamation pts. a bit over the top ?
Big Ray
March 25th, 2010
7:30 pm
I see most of us are doing what we normally do: pick our favorite player to gush about or bash.
I love blogging…
Like I said on the Fan blog, Woody is doing something right, for this team to go where it’s going. Look, you can’t expect a team to be NBA Finals or even Conference Finals overnight. Can Woody do better than he is now? That’s the question, but you can’t answer that until he’s been given a shot at it. This season, our team should still be healthy for the playoffs. Let us see how the team does in relation to last season.
When Josh Smith says he doesn’t hear the fans groaning every time he winds up for a jumper, I believe him. And so should everybody else. In fact, we should be happy to hear this. Why? Because if players are listening to the crowd everytime they do something, then they aren’t concentrating on the game. You can’t listen to the crowd. Everybody is telling you to do something different. Don’t believe me? Just look at this blog, and see if everybody is agreeing….
Players have to listen to each other, and to the coaching staff. They don’t have time to listen to us, or they won’t get anything done.
I could give a crap less about who has what shooting percentage in clutch or late game situations. We know who our best shooters are, we know who our best playmakers are, and we know who is on the floor for both teams in these situations. Decide accordingly, and have a couple of backup plans. Why would anybody be unhappy about the fact that Joe Johnson is one of the better clutch shooters in the league? That’s good news, but it doesn’t mean Joe will hit every late game shot, now does it? In fact, those stats proved that Joe will miss about half of the time. So what? That doesn’t mean he isn’t clutch! What matters is that though he is our #1 option to get a shot off, he’s not our ONLY option. What matters is that there are others to turn to, or others who might be able to make plays when needed. Last night, it was Smith. That ain’t a knock against Joe. Far from it.
Another word on Woody. I want to see what he can do with this team in the playoffs. I DO NOT WANT TO SEE HIM FAIL . His failure is the team’s failure, and I’m a Hawks fan. ‘Nuff said.
drmaryb
March 25th, 2010
7:31 pm
Sam’L
I feel Horford at the 5 has gotten better each year. I think that next year he will be almost as unstoppable as Dwight. I sure hope so, I know he plays out of his natural position – the #4, but he has really come into his own in the NBA of all places as a force down low.
I don’t know if he will ever be a great shot blocker, but I think shot blocking is purely instinctive…I don’t know if you can really teach that, or re-bounding for that matter. I think ” The – Worm” & Barkley were undersized at the #4, but were fantastic rebounders!
I think Al is a great rebounder and will get better at that too. I love his shooting this year, he reminds me of Bill Lambier-sp, with that sweet 12-15 foot shot. He makes it pretty consistently.
I’am leaning towards Gran-Dad, I am thinking we need to still look at future PG & SG/SF positions, to round out our team. The 1,2,3’s are a lot easier to find than a 7-footer.
Rod from College Park
March 25th, 2010
7:31 pm
Grandad,
“R.f.C.P. :
Wdsn has stated on record that he calls virtually no plays for
Marv. Plus, he plays Marv out of pos. offensively. By that he,
unlike wise coaches, does not taylor his offens to yhe strengths
of his players. Lack of shots = lack of opportunity.
Also shooters need more than 2 0r 3 shots per game to maintain
rhythm. You cannot say we have a balanced offense when it comes to
shot distribution.”
Why is is that everyone else is thriving in Woodson’s system except Marvin. Josh having his best year, Jamal, Horford, Joe. Shot distribution is based off of the fact that Marvin has not proven that he can score. Two quotes come to mind.
“Excuses are tools of the incompetent, and those who specialize in them seldom go far.”
Excuses are tools of the incompetent used to build monuments to nothing. For those who specialize in them shall never be good at anything else.”
Rod from College Park
March 25th, 2010
7:34 pm
Grandad,
Woodson also said the same thing about Horford and Josh until this year. They stepped up, improved their games, and produced, and now they do occasionally get plays run for them. See how that works. Prove yourself and then plays might get called for you. Neat idea huh.
Big Ray
March 25th, 2010
7:36 pm
Drmaryb ,
Meet your kaleidoscope opposite. I’m the black guy, married to a white woman. Some people want to give credit to my command of the english language to that, but I’ll have to blame the beautiful college professor known as my mother for that one. My pops helped out as well, by ensuring that I got the level of education that he didn’t when he was in grade school(he’s from way out in the kuntry). Of course, the military can make up for a lot of things, which worked well for him.
in other news….
Mr. Horford speaks out, and I like it. This young man is a leader developing in front of our eyes.
Center Al Horford said the problem often has been ball movement.
“That really falls on the guys that are running our team,” he said. “The guards have the ball in their hands. They control the game, and that’s something they have to kind of realize.”
drmaryb
March 25th, 2010
7:39 pm
BirdDawg
Thks for that assessment. mmmmh! O.K. so maybe we are ok at center based on what you said.
But, we are so young, even JJ is only 27 years old. Horford & Josh are great players on our team and we are very long and athletic. We give teams fits when they play us. I see and hear teams gearing up to play up to the hawks level now.
I heard Milwaukee player, say it on ESPN a couple weeks back, “We got this win tonight, but now we have to get ready to play a really good Hawks team on the road!” Teams really do respect what we are trying to do here.
I still feel that we need 2-3 more pieces to really go all the way, the end of that bench really makes me nervous. I don’t even know who’s down there. Was that Alan “Hindu” Henderson sporting a nice suit in that #12 seat? LOL! oh no! nightmares and flash-backs!
BirdDawg
March 25th, 2010
7:42 pm
How does someone’s vernacular and the fact they are married to someone of the another skin color help the Hawks? While it is great that you guys received an outstanding education and found someone to be happy with , it’s not going to improve Josh Smith’s jumpshot. LOL
BirdDawg
March 25th, 2010
7:45 pm
NOT ALAN HENDERSON!!! COME ON DOC!!! At least give us Tree Rollins or Moses Malone back. LOL
KevinA
March 25th, 2010
7:48 pm
What is wild about JJ is how he waits for the defense to come to him much of the time or even dribble towards them. I think he prefers a player on his hip or someone to shoot over. Then there is the pause – waiting for something to trigger his brain to dribble or shoot. Like a Barkley golf swing but with much better results.
Big Ray
March 25th, 2010
7:48 pm
I actually think that Horford is more offensively sound than Dwight is. Dwight is bigger and stronger (but not by a wide margin), but he can’t shoot a jumper by any stretch of the imagination. He doesn’t even have a reliable running hook or baby hook, either. Where is his unstoppable move? Answer: he doesn’t have one. Horford relies on position alone, which is exactly why the Magic only go to him when jumpers aren’t falling. Then, they can only hope that he will draw fouls, then make the foul shots. Howard shoots 60% from the stripe…
Don’t believe me? Watch last night’s game again and see how many actual shots he made. Those who wish to decry Horford can tell me just how it is that the great Dwight wasn’t able to do better than 4 for 11 shooting against both him and fellow “scrub center” Zaza Pachulia. And though 24 rebounds is impressive, we also just about gave him half of those by shooting and missing several jumpers. Hard to get rebounds off of your own missed jumpers, which means the defense gets them.
As far as defense goes, any simpleton should know that shot-blocking is only a part of it. Horford blocks little more than one shot per game, but he is a great positional defender. When allowed to play up against his man (instead of switching onto some guard), he rarely allows his man to get the position he wants. Horford also uses his lower body strength to push or keep offensive players off balance. It’s the very same thing that made Dennis Rodman so great a defender. Positional defense. A lost concept these days…
Speaking of Horford and his detractors, where is Horford’s most well known hater?
Big Ray
March 25th, 2010
7:49 pm
How does someone’s vernacular and the fact they are married to someone of the another skin color help the Hawks? While it is great that you guys received an outstanding education and found someone to be happy with , it’s not going to improve Josh Smith’s jumpshot. LOL
I don’t recall saying that it would. After last night’s game, all you’re worried about is Smith’s jumper? Go figure…
KevinA
March 25th, 2010
7:50 pm
Big Ray,
Center Al Horford said the problem often has been ball movement.
“That really falls on the guys that are running our team,” he said. “The guards have the ball in their hands. They control the game, and that’s something they have to kind of realize.”
Al for player coach?
drmaryb
March 25th, 2010
7:55 pm
Blue-Ray
You have outstanding vernacular, grammar, and overall communication skills! I knew your parents were the reason behind it, specifically your mother.
Same here, I grew up as an international bible student (sometimes you wouldn’t know it with the potty mouth sometimes), but my mother was the epitome of class, style and grace. She demanded that we learn a minimum of three languages, English being the first. My big brother and I were constantly corrected on grammar and pronunciation of our words, to the point of nasuea sometimes.
But with blogging and texting, there are word fractions and sub-languages now. I really love your writings though. I was very happy to see your blogs on here. I find myself searching for them all the time so I can post you up, but I am usually on the Blackberry when I am blogging and the screen and keys are to small to see very well.
I love you Blue-Ray!
Ken Strickland (sorry I left your name off the MVB List earlier) You’re Awesome!
Manny T (Where the heck are you?)
Sam’L (I do enjoy your posts too, I just didn’t know you from 2007 when I discovered the blog-world)
Looking back, I appreciated it later in life, but definitely not – then. lol!
Big Ray
March 25th, 2010
7:55 pm
Rod ,
I think Horford and Smith both have the natural aggression needed to step up on their own. Whatever it is, Marvin doesn’t have it. It’s not just that, though. Now the ball has too many places to go. It’s too late for him to step up. Can he score in the post or hit the 18-footer better than Horford? Can he drive to the hole or fill the wing better than Josh Smith? Can he create his own shot better than Joe or Jamal? Can he be a better spot-up shooter than Mike Bibby?
The answer to all of this is “no.” I think it’s a bad circumstantial situtaion all the way around. I think Marvin is one of those guys who blooms late (if at all), but he was picked by a team that has a bunch of faster movers. All the guys who get more plays and shot attempts than Marvin are all more aggressive in their respective scoring methods.
Marvin can only be a role player on this team, unless one of the guys who gets the ball more, leaves the team (via free agency or trade). Even then, I’m not sure how much more he can do than 14ppg. He’s never going to justify his draft status. I never thought he would in the first place, but that’s another story, and it’s all in the past.
BirdDawg
March 25th, 2010
7:56 pm
Big Ray,
Very accurate assessment of Al Horford’s effectiveness which is why I can’t understand why people are saying we need a “legitimate center” to win a championship. Makes absolutely no sense. Also, Josh Smith’s jumper isn’t all that concerns me, but if we do get that center that everyone is clamoring for, it means Josh moves to small forward which means he would called upon to shoot those jumpers even more just by the nature of the position. That is a legitimate concern.
drmaryb
March 25th, 2010
7:58 pm
BirdDawg
Sorry for the offense.
But you came in the tail end of a A-B-C conversation between myself and Sam’L. & now Blue-Ray.
I recommend that you use the scroll-on feature that is located on your key-board. You missed the whole point entirely!
Big Ray
March 25th, 2010
7:59 pm
drmaryb ,
Love you too! Now where have you been keeping your main man Richbrave ? Haven’t seen him around these parts in a minute, hope he’s ok. Yeah, I never liked all the grammar pounding when I was a kid, but it certainly helped. You know how it is: you never like anything that’s good for you when you’re a kid, LOL!
Liked the Blackberry, but got tired of their browser. I rock the HTC Touch Pro 2 these days.
BirdDawg
March 25th, 2010
8:02 pm
Big Ray,
Other than being able to create his own shot like Joe and Jamal, I believe the answer to all your questions about Marvin could possibly be yes. Marvin has tremendous athleticism and a lot of raw talent. What he lacks is aggressiveness. It was his problem at North Carolina as well. I think Marvin has the capability to be one of the best all around players in the league, but his mentality and approach to the game will need some serious work. His situation reminds me a lot of what the team went through with Boris Diaw.
drmaryb
March 25th, 2010
8:03 pm
KevinA
Not the Barkley Golf-Swing? OMG that shi%t is really funny.
O.K. JJ does do that, I was wondering the same thing myself. I think Joe is an extremely deliberate man who really thinks a lot about what he is going to do next.
But, I have noticed that too. He does not talk very much ::: Sort of like a Tim Duncan personality to me. I believe he is a thinking man though. Great observation on your behalf.
drmaryb
March 25th, 2010
8:04 pm
Blue-Ray
great come-back to B-Dawg. LMAO!
BirdDawg
March 25th, 2010
8:07 pm
Drmaryb,
I actually caught the entire conversation, I was just injecting a bit of sarcastic humor into the blog. I apologize if it was lost on you guys.
drmaryb
March 25th, 2010
8:09 pm
BirdDawg
Don’t worry too much about Josh’s Jumper, it doesn’t look to bad going up. He’s just a little off with the timing on that thing. He can develop a good shot over the summer hopefully or as he grows his game.
All it takes is practice and putting up maybe 3000 shots per day. MJ did it, he didnt always have that jumper when he first got to the NBA. Overall, I feel Josh’s jumper will improve in the future.
Marvin on the other hand has a sweet looking, picture perfect jumper…however, it does’nt fall in often enough IMO. I think with him, its a lack of confidence in his game and himself. Marvin is a really quiet, sweet and nice kid too. He should have stayed in school for another year or two – IMO.
He will be o.k. too, there is so much talent on this team that Marvin gets lost out there.
Blast
March 25th, 2010
8:10 pm
Hawks struggles in the 4th whether against the zone or not is because the offence grinds to a halt. Hawks go away from what was working, player and ball movement. Joe wants to be the man, the hero, so the ball sticks with him like glue.
Horford was right. The guards (Joe) control the ball, hence the game. While I appreciate Joe and loved that he kept us in the Minny game dueling with Salmon, Joe was what? 2-9 in that fourth? He made 7 straight shots and and missed his last two. I would have rather he missed the first two and made the last 7.
Hawks/Josh getting some love on TNT.
Beautiful win last night, thanks to Josh, our hero.
Go Hawks!
KevinA
March 25th, 2010
8:10 pm
Center Al Horford said the problem often has been ball movement.
“That really falls on the guys that are running our team,” he said. “The guards have the ball in their hands. They control the game, and that’s something they have to kind of realize.”
Is it possible that Al has something there? A great PG would get the ball to Marvin where can be most effective? Or anyone else?
drmaryb
March 25th, 2010
8:15 pm
Blue-Ray
Yeah my first blog-boyfriend who gave me my first kiss and showed me the ropes. RichBrave taught me how to interact and not pick so many fights! (i.e. blog etiquette) lol!
I think he is depressed because they broke up the Washington (ahem…ahem…) Bullets! lol!
Seriously, I hope he is well with his health and family and all! I sure do miss my ex! He will always hold a special place in my blogging-heart. I am sure there will be a sighting during the play-offs!
“Liked the Blackberry, but got tired of their browser. I rock the HTC Touch Pro 2 these days.”
-I am slow with technology, so just upgraded to the Blackberry about 8 weeks ago & I still don’t know how it works! LOL! it’ll be years before I upgrade to what you have.
BirdDawg
March 25th, 2010
8:15 pm
Drmaryb,
I think Marvin will be fine as well. He has immense talent, but there’s talent all over this team so he does get lost at times. A lot of the fans seem to have given up on Marvin. Call me cray,but I think that if JJ were to leave, Marvin could give the team a lot of what Joe does in production. Like you said, he just needs to get his confidence up and be more aggressive.
Big Ray
March 25th, 2010
8:16 pm
BirdDawg ,
I don’t know if that will actually happen. Unless management and coaching thinks they have a seriously legit need for a bigger starting center, they won’t likely move Horford to the 4, and therefore Josh to the 3. The only way I can see it working (at least on offense) is if the center is capable of attacking from the perimeter, ala Andrea Bargnani or Mehmet Okur. Otherwise, a bigger, rugged center would have to be a guy who stays out of the way on offense, except to maybe get a dump-off pass for a dunk or layup (like Samuel Dalembert playing next to Elton Brand).
However, I share your concerns about Josh Smith and his jump-shooting skills (or lack thereof). He seems determined to be able to make the shot, and I do think he should keep trying. But I’d much rather him take those sparingly, and work REALLY, REALLY hard on making that jumper during the offseason. Moving him to the 3 may mean more than just him playing on the perimeter more on offense.
It would also mean that he would be called on more to defend “on the ball.” Personally, that bothers me more than him taking jumpers. Josh is a good defender, but he’s better when he can support from the weak side, rather than guard a guy who has moves and can dribble, because it will take all of his concentration to stay on the one guy. Plus, he can be faked into the air at times, which is an easy way to draw a foul. If that happens, he may become frustrated and then his level of play will go down even further, or he’ll be taken out of the game, due to foul trouble. Josh is better tracking those guys to the basket than he is having to defend them straight up.
But, we’ll see what happens.
Ken Strickland
March 25th, 2010
8:20 pm
ROD FROM CP-Stevie Wonder could have watched last nights gm and seen more than you obviously saw? You need to spend more time MAKING SENSE rather than always trying to MAKE A POINT. Do you actually watch the gms? I can’t believe you were dilusional enough to imply we got 2 quick fowls on DHoward and 3 quick fowls on his backup Gortat in the 1st quarter by running pick and pops. Are you also implying Howard got his 4 blocks blocking pick and pop jumpshots?
Hell, even MBibby took it to the rim and challenged him on one occasion, although he got his shot blocked. Yes, we started the gm off with our usual pick and pops, and fell behind because it wasn’t working. Woodson changed our OFF and DEF approach when he sent JCrawford into the gm. Instead of continuing those pick and pops like we usually do, we started going to our bigs and our backcourt started going to the basket. Our frontline worked the hell out of Howard. We went after them in the lane so hard that at one point Orlando sat both Howard and Gortat down and played BBass at C.
Although Horford isn’t a dominant type of center, his intelligence, agressiveness, athleticism, versatility and talent are enough to allow him to neutralize most opposing centers. His unrelenting approach usually wears opposing centers down, which is why he does so well in the 2nd half.
LAST NIGHT OUR ATLANTA HAWKS DID WHAT TEAMS THAT HAVE SUCCESSFULLY DEFEATED ORLANDO HAVE BEEN DOING, AND THAT’S TAKE IT TO HOWARD, MAKE HIM WORK HARD AND GET HIM INTO EARLY FOUL TROUBLE. Your pick and pop BS is what we’ve done in the past, and we’ve gotten out butts handed to us as a results. This time, Woody finally made a key in gm adjustment, even though he just had to try it the old way first and suffer the usual early beatdown and deficit.
IF Woodson had stepped up during some of our earlier losses and made in gm adjustments like he did last night, we’d be a hell of a lot closer to beating Orlando out for the conference title.
Hawk n the Ham
March 25th, 2010
8:21 pm
I think Marvin would flourish on a different team. I would see Marvin fitting in real well with Phil Jackson and his offense. Marvin reminds me of an untapped Pippen type player.
Big Ray
March 25th, 2010
8:23 pm
BirdDawg ,
It’s just my opinion, but all of those skills and potential is nothing without the drive to get it done. Josh couldn’t dribble to save his life when he came into this league. All he could do is run and jump. Now the guy is 2nd on the team in assists, third in scoring, and can get to the basket better than many.
Marvin just doesn’t have that drive, or he doesn’t have enough of it. He came off the bench in his only college season, and there was a reason for it. Truly great freshmen start, unless there is somebody ahead of them who is clearly better. Ask Carmelo Anthony. Mike Beasley. Kevin Durant. John Wall. It is what it is.
And you can’t teach aggressiveness. I’m not saying throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater, but I’m not sure he can be (at least on this team, as currently constructed) more than he’s ever been. On another team, maybe it’s another story. Maybe not. I don’t know.
Blast
March 25th, 2010
8:23 pm
Last few games, I’ve noticed this:
Joe is far more effective when he moves without the ball, like Rip Hamilton. I’ve noticed that when Joe moves off screens and gets the ball for a wide open jumper, he is very very dangerous. I would say he converts 70 per cent of his open jumpers. But when they iso Joe, he holds the ball too long, and he SEEMS to dribble towards the defenders, instead of AWAY from them. And when your star player dribbles the ball that long, he attracts defenders like hyenas to carrion. Most of Joe’s 4th quarters turnovers occur when he tries to make plays or pass off double/triple teams.
He needs to pass out quicker before the double gets there. Joe needs to realize that Hawks don’t need him anymore to make ALL the players. We have other players.
The iso game is not bad. It worked well against teams like the Celtics. But I would rather have Jamal isolated with the ball than Joe. Jamal does not pound the ball. He attacks quickly! And passes when he does not have a shot. If Joe can learn those traits, I’d say he would be a much more better basketball player.
drmaryb
March 25th, 2010
8:35 pm
Blue-Ray
“It would also mean that he would be called on more to defend “on the ball.” Personally, that bothers me more than him taking jumpers. Josh is a good defender, but he’s better when he can support from the weak side, rather than guard a guy who has moves and can dribble, because it will take all of his concentration to stay on the one guy.”
I fear that if Josh goes to the #3, it will pull him too far out of the paint. He thrives in the paint, and the team will his greatest assets..which are many!
Blocks, Steals, changing – shots, passing, assists…etc. Josh is a lot more talented than Kirilenko, but their games are extremely similar. Josh is a rare-special talent. He literally jumps out of the gym!
Big Ray
March 25th, 2010
8:38 pm
Marvin like Pippen? I hate to argue (ok, so I like it a little bit..sometimes), but I don’t know if he can be that kind of defender or attack the basket that aggressively.
I do think that either Joe would have to be gone, or Marvin would have to be on another team for us to know for sure, though.
BirdDawg
March 25th, 2010
8:39 pm
Big Ray,
You’re absolutely right, you can teach aggressivness, but it can be developed. Marvin has shown enough to be able to say that he has it in him, it’s just on the player to make an conscious effort to get it done and on the coach to find out what makes that player tick in order to get the best out of him. Marvin is a 6′9″, 6′10″ pure shooter with the quickness and handle of a shooting guard plus he plays tenacious defense. He makes his mistakes like any player, but a guy like that is a matchup nightmare in any league. I just can’t believe that someone with that type of ability can be as useless to the team as most would have you think.
drmaryb
March 25th, 2010
8:42 pm
kenS
“LAST NIGHT OUR ATLANTA HAWKS DID WHAT TEAMS THAT HAVE SUCCESSFULLY DEFEATED ORLANDO HAVE BEEN DOING, AND THAT’S TAKE IT TO HOWARD, MAKE HIM WORK HARD AND GET HIM INTO EARLY FOUL TROUBLE.”
I called the exact same game plan that you stated prior to that game. I figured if we go at Dwight hard, he would have to play defense and end up with quick fouls and er’ go sit his azz on the pine.
It worked like perfection imo.
Big Ray
March 25th, 2010
8:42 pm
Blast ,
Agreed. Which points towards coaching, really. We should give Joe more opportunities to score without having to create his own shot all the time. The problem is, he is good at creating his own shot, but it always calls for a more difficult shot, and some defenders can give him problems. Pietrus and Barnes were doing a number on him, forcing him to the baseline where Howard could help out.
I’ll never forget Sautee talking to me one time, when he said that his wife said Woody thinks Joe is better than he really is. That’s no knock on Joe at all. But we can’t keep putting him in a position where he nearly ALWAYS has to create his own shot. Joe is not that good. Guess what? Neither is Kobe. Or Lebron. Or Wade. Or anybody else. They all need a little help every now and then, here and there.
More than a screen or two per game would be nice.
BirdDawg
March 25th, 2010
8:44 pm
Hawk n the Ham,
I’m with you more than most would be. I honestly think Marvin has the talent, length, athleticism and intelligence to be a top 10 – 20 player in this league. With all the tools that he has at his disposal, I’m at a loss to explain why it hasn’t materialized to this point. He’s shown flashes, but not consistency.
drmaryb
March 25th, 2010
8:48 pm
B-Dawg
“Marvin is a 6′9″, 6′10″ pure shooter with the quickness and handle of a shooting guard plus he plays tenacious defense.”
Exactly my point. I don’t know if he is a pure shooter though, maybe if he garnered some real confidence. Again, he is a very quiet, gentle, shy kid though. Kind of reminds me of Michael Vick’s personality – “but without a dog-in-the-fight” no pun intended there.
Just personality wise, Marvin seems very shy & quiet. He is a really good kid though, I hope he doesn’t read or hear the criticisms on the blog though, I don’t feel he is mentally tough enough to read a blog like this with all the name-calling….(i.e. duck-but, etc)
He does kind of remind me of Boris Diaw though with his game skills and played better in Phoenix when Amare was down for that season injury.
Big Ray
March 25th, 2010
8:50 pm
drmaryb ,
I agree. Kirilenko is more of an on-ball defender than Josh is. He’s got a better jumper, too. Josh is better than Kirilenko at catching people in the open court. Better than just about anybody.
BirdDawg ,
I’m fairly convinced that Woody is just not that kind of coach. Marvin isn’t useless, and to say so is straight up BS. But I expect that from some people. I think Woody is a “show me” coach, though. If you don’t show him what you can do, he’ll never have a clue that you can do it. You have to show him in practice, you have to show him in games. He’s not going to try and find out what makes you tick, or how to bring it out of you. That’s just the vibe I get from him, but I don’t know the guy personally.
The thing about Marvin that makes me think he lacks the amount of aggression needed to do more for a team like this is the opportunities he gets. He rarely ever tries to take anybody off the dribble. Seriously, watch him. He never draws a double team. He usually only does two things when faced with a lone defender: pass it or shoot the jumper. Again, this isn’t every single time, but he rarely, rarely tries to take anybody off the dribble or post them up. When he does post up, it’s because he’s already tried to get into position to do so, and managed to succeed.
That’s why I have serious doubts about his aggression. The good news is that he doesn’t need that full-time aggression to help this team. He need only fill the wing on fast breaks, hit open shots, grab rebounds, and play good defense. We have enough guys taking and creating shots.
BirdDawg
March 25th, 2010
8:52 pm
I don’t know, Big Ray. Kobe, Lebron and Wade can create their own shots pretty much at will. They won’t win that way, but they could do it. I don’t think Joe is THAT good either, but with Jamal on the floor with him, he doesn’t have to be. I can live with Joe creating open shots for Jamaal at the ends of games or vice versa.
Big Ray
March 25th, 2010
8:58 pm
To be a top 10 or 20 player in this league, Marvin has to show he is better than anybody on this team, except Joe Johnson. Seriously.
And if that were the case, he would have exhibited some of those signs by now. Five years later, he has regressed (this season), rather than progressed. Rare examples (Chauncey Billups) of late bloomers are out there, but I don’t think this is one of them. To me, that smacks of him not being what he was expected to be, which is not his fault.
You pick a guy at #2, you’re hoping for great things, right? Well, what does that have to do with the guy himself? Is it HIS fault you thought he could be better than he is? No. Marvin isn’t useless, I just don’t think he’s destined to be what some of us keep looking for, and what people said he had the potential to be when he got picked in the draft. Maybe I’m wrong, but so far I ain’t.
But hey, he’s not the only one. Darko Milicic will never be as good as Marvin. He was picked #2, and I’d argue that he IS just about useless. How about Michael Beasley, who destroyed even Kevin Durant’s college stats? Am I supposed to be impressed with 15 and 6 on a team that features only one other legitimate offensive threat (Jermaine O’Neal would be a third, but he’s a shell of what he once was)?
BirdDawg
March 25th, 2010
8:59 pm
Drmaryb,
I didn’t mean pure shooter as in he would shoot the lights out like Ray Allen, I meant that his jump shot is almost perfect(good form, shoulders squared to the basket, great follow through,etc.) He’s definitely lacking that “something” that makes great players, but he has the tools.