Hawks squawks: Hawks 112, Pistons 99

From previous blog:

Response to northcyde:

I’ve been away watching ball all day.
I mentioned that back in the 50’s…inferring…that I played once upon a time. Admittedly, I wasn’t very good. That’s why I bacame a coach.
Loved the game, studied it, absorbed all I could for the past 40 yrs.
After a lifetime in the game, one learns not to waste time in practice
on situations that will never occur in a game. I understand, hand eye coordination, etc., but any drill should be game specific.
As for Josh:
Why hasn’t Wdsn taught him fundamental footwork, how to shoot FT’s,
How to shoot a mid range jumper in rhythm (and why doesn’t he run
plays designed to do so). I’ll stop there for now.
I’m sure Wdsn did a good job teaching Josh to:
*jump high *run fast *block shots *dunk and many other things which require hand eye coordination.

Sautee – I’m not sure many HS coaches run 3 man weave anymore.
I’m fairly confident it’s a staple for AAU teams.

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at least they finished it off the right way

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Leave Grandad alone!

Big Ray…..you just like to hear yourself talk, but you make NO SENSE AT ALL!

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at least the Knicks whipped the Mavericks, Hawks arent the only ones

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I confess, I was playing Britney. So yeah, I personally attacked “Big Ray”

Grandad had a perfectly good point. Josh (who is playing brilliantly and who has grown immensely) SHOULD know how to shoot free throws and how to hit a mid-range jumper. It wouldn’t hurt a “great coach” like Woodson to maybe direct Josh a few feet over to Mark Price to learn how to do that so that when Atlanta trails Cleveland by 1 in a critical playoff game,, the Cavs don’t purposely guard everyone but Josh and them foul him. Or watch his midrange jumper clank off the rim. Plus in a zone I would think it would be a huge plus to have everyone on the floor make their midrange jumpshot.

So, I guess when somebody sees something and has a suggestion,that makes perfect sense, the appropriate response is to absorb it and go with it

Woodson doesn’t make the critical adjustments that win games. He is NOT a tactical coach. Big Ray pretends that he himself is a tactician but apparently he can’t see OBVIOUS things in front of his own eyes or extrapolate that out to real situations.

I’m asking myself why this should be so annoying…….

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sam’l:

You think that was directed @ me or was it sarcasm?
Quite frankly,I’m dumbfounded.

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Barry & sam’l:

I’ve been quite outspoken about Wdsn’s coaching accumen.
My statement above had nothing to do with tonight’s game
but a response to [nc] who came back @ me for an earlier
rant on Sat. To my knowledge Big Ray has always been most
cordial on this board. Thus my dumbfoundedness.
Now, back to Wdsn, it would be redundant & repetitive to
list his shortcomings. Although, a rebuke from Big Ray or
anyone else will not contain my thoughts in the future.
The one really positive trait our young men have is they
seem to be good citizens. Wdsn, being the one constant,
during their tenure must get some of the credit.

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Ramon,

The Hawks are a good team because they have a talented roster in a WEAK eastern conference. Name one game where you can say the Hawks won because Woody OUTCOACHED someone. We in because we are better and more talented than most teams. Additionally, Doc Rivers head headed for a platter before the Celtics aquired Garnett and Allen. You are CONFUSING a good record with GOOD COACHING. It’s not the same thing!

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Grandad: I thought Big Ray was being sarcastic, and the intended targets of his post were the folks who tend to gloss over some of the apparent issues the Hawks are having on defense (among other things).

(Sarcasm does tend to get served in healthy helpings with Rum, from what I know.)

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“Like I said, they’re professionals, too.””
LOL Woodson acting like we’re the best team and we’re playing worse teams.

No, we lost to Detroit without its 3 best players 2 months ago

Idiot

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Yeah, leave grandBytch alone. She is trying to get some glory for herself and pretend that the months of stupidity, ignorance and folly on this site can be legitimized and justified by a time 40 years ago, when dinosaurs roamed the earth. GrandBytch tried out for a team and was cut in the first 5minutes,”get the hell out of here, we are trying to win”, coaches reply).

From that point Grandbytch went out and created his own players, team, league. His was the only team in the league so they never lost. His players was made up of mostly stray cats and dogs, but again, they never lost.

So now, after six months of experience as a Hawks blogger Grand bytch is ready to critique Woodson who in his short head coaching career made last years top ten in the coaches poll and this year will be a top five and a serious candidate for the Coach of the Year award.

Good job Woodson!

Get 2 teams in your leagues Grand bytch aka The Grinch.

Extendz my Woody.

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It was nice to see the Hawks put the foot down in the 2nd quarter, after already being up big.

It was nice to see JT0 playing late into the 2nd quarter, penetrating and drawing fouls.

It was nice to not have a hair pulling night watching the Hawks playing ‘down’ to their competition.

It was a nice game. Go HAWKS!!!!

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I have yet to check out hot spots for the last few weeks but you have to realize that Josh and Al need to keep working on them 15′ jumpers. Do I wish they would stay away from those 18′ and beyond? – yes. These guys like Howard know they will need to be proficient at some point and extend their range or their careers will be shortened by years. No one can jump forever.

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Issue 3

Win lose whatever, Marvin needs at least 10 attempts and Al 14. No excuse. Just a matter of balance. This does not account for free throws.

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JJ needs to be replaced by Mario at least two more minutes every game in the third QT. No love for Mario, just we need our All-Star fresher for the end of games.

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Issue 5

Nire is wrong

We should expect our guards like JJ and Jamal to pass the ball in a fine offensive scheme that only works when we are passing the ball. Any ISO should not last longer than 2 sec. I realize that we do a lot of ISO by all of our players – just do it quick.

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Issue 6,

I know longer do balance watch. The Team has evolved. Not perfect by any account but not the glareing weakness it was early in the year. Now the new idea is attack the basket. When we do it by all players we do better. We need those foul shots.

PS like always – feed a big – get a win. Love the fact Al is finally getting his shots.

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Zach . . . Big Ray was being sarcastic. He actually believes none of what he typed.

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Issue 9

I have just pointed out a few ideas that might make our team better in the short term. But no matter what happens I love these Hawks and their future potential. Yes we are in year three of a 5 year plan. Josh, Al, ZaZa, Teague and Marvin will improve. We have years of good ball ahead of us. Got to love it.

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I’ve read alot of comments about how Woody plays his starters too many minutes…well here’s Orlando Magic head coach Stan Van Gundy’s take on bench play & resting/playing his starters:

“Orlando Magic news: Blowout wins give Orlando Magic starters some much-needed rest, Orlando Sentinel, Tania Ganguli

The Buzz: “People always talk about the rest,” Magic coach Stan Van Gundy said, ”but if you’re playing 28, 30 minutes a night and then all of a sudden in the playoffs you want 42 minutes out of a guy, they’re not going to be able to do it.”

I’m not a Coach Woodson fan, but this does make his strategy of playing the starters a ton of minutes make sense.

-REEligiously Roe!!!

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Cant wait to put the Hawks out in the first round, they cant keep us in front of them.

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Point taken Duke. But we’re a franchise that’s not used to winning anything, nor less watching a top10 team. The word “special” is used in context comparable to Hawk seasons of the past, not necessarily in the context of what reaching the NBA Finals would be like.

The facts are that 50 win seasons are rare around here . . especially in the past 10 – 15 years. So if this year’s team gets to 52 – 55 wins, the year ( so far ) has to be categorized as being “special” to Hawk fans.

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In the game we lost up in Detroit earlier in the year, Big Ben absolutely destroyed us on the boards, and even scored some points.

I understand our rebounding problem with some teams. There are a couple of things we could do that Woody has yet to try. Play Josh at the 3, al at the 2 and ZaZa at center. Play more Marvin and Evans instead of Bibby and Jamal. I think many times JJ and Marvin are ecpected to get back instead of crashing the boards to protect Bibby and Jamal. PS this is why we miss Chills.

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In a switching defense we need Marvin, Bibby and JJ crashing the boards. It has to be a team effort. I will agree Josh and Al could box out better. And Woody keeping them fresher with more bench play.

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As usual, the Hawks let big leads slip away. Good thing they were up by 28 and not 18. Two observations from last night’s game: 1- I see the “old” Jamal Crawford paid a visit with all the hot dogging and ball hogging which turned into 5 turnovers. Stop playing with house money. 2- It seemed that the idea in the 3rd was to slow down the pace and establish the post. I don’t understand why they don’t stick with what was working the whole first half. Keep pushing, step on their necks, and let your starters rest the 4th quarter.

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Josh is not a center but a power forward.

Our center, is Al Horford. When it comes to rebounds, (in which he currently ranks #15 among NBA centers), Id rather see him play the defense and let the forwards pick up the rebounds he would cause by playing defense. Id rather see him block and alter shots or put some one on the seat of their pants, rather than pick up a rebound from someone else’s defense. Currently our center, Al Horford is ranked # 18 among nba centers for Block shots. Over the past month he has hoover between #18 and #25. As long as we are soft in the 5 spot teams will continue to penetrate, pick and roll, isolate, and take their man of the dribble straight to the 5 position because we have no defense at that position.

Every championship caliber team has a center who can block or alter shots with his back to the rim and protecting the interior half circle underneath the basket. Thats not the power forward Job but the center’s. You cant take Horford’s responsibility as the center and lump him with Josh to lessen Al’s lack of defensive responsibility.

Quit Hiding behind Josh. Josh is one of the best power forwards in the game! period! He may be the best at the rate he is growing. He is not, nor ever was the center.

We can do better than a center who is number 18th among center for shot blocking and 15 for rebounds.

Josh isnt the problem.He does it all at his position. To get to the championship level we need a 5 who can do it all at his position.

NO BRAINER!

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What is ” specially stupid” is expecting a team with 1 legitimate allstar to get to the championship rounds…Talk about “special”, that is specially foolish.

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Obviously, the Hawks have to do a better job of limiting teams to one shot which, in other words, means they have to do a better job rebounding the basketball. However, you can’t simply ignore the effect a lack of size plays in the problem. If you’re going to play a 6′8 guy at power forward and a 6′9 1/2 guy at center, then you have to expect that you’ll have some rebounding issues.

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Sautee, When you open your mouth how many flies come in?

NO center can park in the lane. Duh^3! Woody has to switch to compensate for Horford and Bibby.

I dont hate Horford, I think he is a 1st class power forward! Not as good as Josh, but certainly a starter on almost all teams.

No, I havent notice any one able to defend Horford’s inability to block short or his noddle arm defense.

If I want more block from the center position I hire a center, and then I wont have to rotate the 1 or the 5 spot on defense. You defense scheme is base on the ability of the players on the team not the effectiveness of the technical styles. You cant run and gun team with near retiring veteran and you cant play a post up zone defense with a power forward in the center spot, sautee.

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If I want more blocks from the center position, I’d hire a center,

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Truth-serum,

Maybe you haven’t noticed, but the trading deadline is over. We can’t just go out on the street and hire a center. We have to do what we can with who we have.

Once again, if you criticize Horford for not blocking enough shots, you are criticizing Woody.

You can not get around this. Because THIS is how Woody is choosing to use his personnel.

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B-, but I’m seeing signs that he is growing as a coach. That’s encouraging, and somewhat unexpected. But maybe, like it takes some players a few years for the light to go on, it’s the same for coaches. Woody is extremely fortunate to have an owners group who stuck with him for long enough to grow. Now we’re seeing some of the fruit ripening.

I’m still concerned about the lack of in-game adjustments, and the lean rotations, but even that is slowly getting better. (He said hopefully.)

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The reason people think Joe and Jamal have to have perfect games against Orlando/Cleveland in order for us to win is because Marvin cowers away and Bibby sucks. They do not step up when needed against GOOD teams and therefore we will not succeed in the playoffs. Would be nice if Marvin actually had a break-out year and did something for this team besides average defense and 10 ppg

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Get you facts straight liar. You have 0 credibility!

PLAYER NAME, TEAM NAME GP MPG BLK PF BLKPG BLKP48M BLK/PF
1
Dwight Howard , ORL
67 34.9 184 236 2.75 3.78 .78
2
Andrew Bogut , MIL
58 32.6 145 186 2.5 3.68 .78
3
Brendan Haywood , DAL-WAS
62 32.0 129 171 2.08 3.12 .75
4
Samuel Dalembert , PHI
65 25.6 130 209 2.0 3.74 .62
5
Brook Lopez , NJN
66 37.0 120 215 1.82 2.36 .56
6
Kendrick Perkins , BOS
63 28.0 112 181 1.78 3.05 .62
7
Roy Hibbert , IND
65 24.3 110 229 1.69 3.34 .48
8
Emeka Okafor , NOH
66 29.5 110 184 1.67 2.71 .6
9
Marc Gasol , MEM
67 35.9 104 247 1.55 2.07 .42
10
Andrew Bynum , LAL
62 30.6 89 187 1.44 2.25 .48
11
Andrea Bargnani , TOR
62 34.8 88 176 1.42 1.96 .5
12
Jermaine O’Neal , MIA
61 29.1 84 189 1.38 2.27 .44
13
Joel Anthony , MIA
64 14.7 84 121 1.31 4.28 .69
14
Ben Wallace , DET
60 29.5 73 118 1.22 1.98 .62
15
Chris Kaman , LAC
61 35.1 71 169 1.16 1.59 .42
16
Mehmet Okur , UTA
59 29.3 68 178 1.15 1.89 .38
17
Al Jefferson , MIN
62 32.6 71 166 1.14 1.68 .43
18
Al Horford , ATL
65 35.1 72 185 1.11 1.51 .39
19
Spencer Hawes , SAC
64 26.5 65 176 1.02 1.84 .37
20
Marcin Gortat , ORL
66 13.2 62 111 .94 3.43 .56
20
Nene Hilario , DEN
66 33.6 62 232 .94 1.34 .27
22
Channing Frye , PHX
65 27.6 59 211 .91 1.58 .28
23
Drew Gooden , LAC-DAL
58 24.0 52 168 .9 1.79 .31
24
Nick Collison , OKC
57 21.2 38 173 .67 1.51 .22
25
Nenad Krstic , OKC
62 22.8 36 147 .58 1.22 .24
26
Ryan Hollins , MIN
58 18.4 33 169 .57 1.48 .2
27
* DeJuan Blair , SAS
64 18.5 33 177 .52 1.34 .19
28
Charles Hayes , HOU
64 21.0 31 164 .48 1.11 .19
29
David Lee , NYK
66 37.1 31 201 .47 .61 .15
30
Antonio McDyess , SAS
60 20.8 24 115 .4 .92 .21
31
Zaza Pachulia , ATL
61 13.5 24 147 .39 1.4 .16
32
* David Andersen , HOU
60 14.5 12 117 .2 .66 .1
33
Juwan Howard , POR
60 22.8 9 163 .15 .32 .06

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Woodson, gets a A. Winning with only 1 legitimate allstar!

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northcyde,

I give Woody a solid B for the season, but I think the potential is there for him to get a B+ (or maybe even A-).

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Let’s see, Joe Johnson was named by the coaches to the All-Star team.

Al Horford was named by the coaches to the All-Star team.

Hmmmm…. both All-Stars by the very same method. Sounds like we have TWO legitimate All-Stars to me. And another who is proving that he should have been named.

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OMG…..Officer friendly is at it again,people dont feed the animals-in this case the swine. Just becuz the man was handed a golden highliter doesnt mean he’s credible. Sarcastic huh?…..Uhhhm howz about catching sum bad guys and stop wasting our tax dollars.

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Truth-serum said this:

“Lets be clear. We wont go far with Al at center.”

Won’t go HOW far?

Aren’t you the one who keeps on talking over (and over and….) about how the “experts” picked us to be the 4th seed?

Where are we now? Seems like we’ve gone pretty far with an undersized power forward playing All-Star center.

So I guess you’d like to just call off the season because “we won’t go far with Al”?

And no, not a republican, but yes, an Obama supporter.

But, speaking of republicans, wasn’t it YOU who was spouting conspiracy theories about how the Coaches conspired against us by voting Al to the All-Star game?

How did it go again….. they wanted to convince us that Al was better than we thought so we wouldn’t pursue another center?

Well, it’s just as believable as Iraq having WMD’s right?

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The Grinch:

I never jumped on ‘Big Ray’.
I agree it appeared to be sarcasm.
Thanks.

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Grandma and Saltee, At least we agree, Horford is not the answer @ the 5. Josh is and will always be a power forward and you cant change that in your preparation of moving in a true 5 and finding a place for Al.

When and if the Hawks get a center and still have Al and Josh on the roster. Al will split time between 4/5(just like he did in college) but he will be second on the depth chart at both positions. He is not as gifted as Josh is when playing the 4.

Yes, Al was @ one time recently at 23, 25 and now 18 on the block shots chart among centers. Thats stat get updated sometimes bi weekly. Right now he is 18th which is just awful! The same thing for rebounds. He as been rated as low as 15th and as high as 8th over the past two weeks. Keep in mind this is not among all player but just among centers. 15th and 8th is not the kind of numbers that is going to get you past the second round. Get real. Actually 8th best rebounding is equal to 9 rebounds a game. Not good.

Like I told you at the beginning of this season, Al is about as good as he will get. He may put up better numbers for the season than last year but it will be very marginal. Hes pretty much peaked.

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Enter your comments here

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Nacho when you finish with Dezz Nuttz, Extenze my Woody.

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TS:

I’m gonna play nice.
I appreciate that you didn’t talk ugly.
Now, I really think Josh & Al work well together.
Think of it like that.
Don’t just think positions.
I think Josh and Al enjoy playing together.
So, how can we best enhance their abilities.
Playing together and TEAMWORK [chemistry]
trumps individual stats (such as blocked shots, etc.)
when all else [talent/skill] is equal.
That was poorly stated but I hope you see my point.
Players such as: Rodman, Artest, Battier, et al,
sacrificed for the greater good.
Now doesn’t that feel better, even if you disagree?
Miss. St. got jobbed!

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Truth-serum,

Funny how your COY Woodson doesn’t agree with you regarding Al Horford.

Here’s what Woody said before this season:

“I remember last year after Al got hurt those two times … We were exposed. Al’s the one guy I feared going down.”

The ONE guy he feared going down. Not Joe Johnson, not Josh Smith.

Al Horford (Woody’s All-Star Center)

And remember…. when you criticize Horford’s shotblocking, you are really criticizing Woodson’s defensive scheme.

You don’t really want to criticize Woody, do ya?

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Truth-serum,

You said this:

“Actually 8th best rebounding is equal to 9 rebounds a game. Not good.”

Once again, false information. Horford is tied for 7th among centers with Al Jefferson at 9.4 rebounds per game.

Once again, here’s the link: http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Rebounds.jsp?league=00&season=22009&conf=OVERALL&position=1&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=Y&years

Down at 9.0 rebounds (12th) is 7′ 0″, 265 lb. Brook Lopez.

What did you say…. not good?

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You are right. Here is today’s NBA.com listing for centers. Hes not 8th, hes 15th, yes, its not 9 rbs, its 9.4. sorry about the .4 idiot.

March,14 2010
2009-10 REBOUNDING LEADERS : Rebounds Per Game
Displaying results 1-50 of 189 found – Centers
Results: 1-50 51-100 101-150 151-189 Next »

PLAYER NAME,TEAM NAME GP MPG OFF ORPG DEF DRPG REB RPG RP40
1
Dwight Howard , ORL
67 34.9 232 3.5 651 9.7 883 13.2 18.1
2
Zach Randolph , MEM
66 37.9 273 4.1 506 7.7 779 11.8 14.9
3
David Lee , NYK
66 37.1 178 2.7 593 9.0 771 11.7 15.1
4
Marcus Camby , POR-LAC
61 30.8 201 3.3 502 8.2 703 11.5 18.0
5
Carlos Boozer , UTA
62 35.1 143 2.3 556 9.0 699 11.3 15.4
6
Chris Bosh , TOR
57 36.3 169 3.0 471 8.3 640 11.2 14.9
7
Gerald Wallace , CHA
62 41.7 127 2.0 520 8.4 647 10.4 12.0
8
Tim Duncan , SAS
61 31.8 192 3.1 444 7.3 636 10.4 15.7
9
Andrew Bogut , MIL
58 32.6 178 3.1 426 7.3 604 10.4 15.3
10
Brendan Haywood , DAL-WAS
62 32.0 242 3.9 376 6.1 618 10.0 14.9
11
Lamar Odom , LAL
66 30.8 143 2.2 491 7.4 634 9.6 15.0
12
Samuel Dalembert , PHI
65 25.6 190 2.9 431 6.6 621 9.6 17.9
13
Marc Gasol , MEM
67 35.9 205 3.1 429 6.4 634 9.5 12.6
14
Al Jefferson , MIN
62 32.6 153 2.5 429 6.9 582 9.4 13.8
15
Al Horford , ATL
65 35.1 183 2.8 426 6.6 609 9.4 12.8
16
Chris Kaman , LAC
61 35.1 149 2.4 414 6.8 563 9.2 12.6

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Truth-serum,

You also said this regarding Horford’s rebounding standings among centers:

“15th and 8th is not the kind of numbers that is going to get you past the second round. Get real.”

Oh REALLY?

How about this: In 07-08 the Celtics won the Championship.

Their “true” center, Kendrick Perkins was 14th among centers in blocked shots, and 21st in rebounding.

TWENTY-FIRST and his team won the Finals.

What were you saying about the second round?

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15th and 15th rebound and block wont get you out of the kitchen let alone the second round.

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http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Rebounds.jsp?league=00&season=22009&conf=OVERALL&position=0&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=Y&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=

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Oh boy, am I ever egg-faced. LOL, dude, look at the chart you just printed. It’s for ALL players, not centers. Unless of course Gerald Wallace, Z-bo, Boozer, TD, and Lamar Odum have changed position overnight.

maybe you want to retract that?

Yeah, boy, I’m egg-faced alright. heh, heh.

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ORL just lost. We got NJ on Tues…when we win that we’ll be 3 games back goin into Wed night’s action

-REEalize it’s Roe!!!

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Id did not write chart, NBA.com did and its overall & Position (C).

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“It is not Woody’s fault that B-Knight didn’t draft a Point Gaurd – Billy passed on Chris Paul & Deron Williams.”

Woody didn’t want Paul or Williams anymore than Knight did and even went on record saying so.

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TS – Be nice.
C’mon now, I’m tryin’ to keep you in the game.

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Grandad,

So aptly put.

And yes, it’s probably futile, but I’d just like to get him to be real. He can rail against Horford all he wants, but don’t try to fudge the numbers.

Dat ain’t riiight. Last year he repeatedly posted Horford’s playoff numbers as his regular season numbers. Argued over and over that he was certain. But of course he was proven wrong then too.

I’ll have to say that the conspiracy theory is quite a stretch, though. Hey, at least it showed some imagination. (There some positive spin for you).

Have a good evening, I’m off.

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Sam’l ,

No harm, no foul. You were misdirected. I’ve enjoyed reading your posts here and on the fan blog. You should come around more often.

JeJe ,

It’s easy to pick on Marvin, but if he’s going to have a breakout year, one of two things has to happen. Either the team will suddenly average about 110 ppg, or somebody else’s shot attempts get cut. Take your pick between JJ, Smith, Horford, and Crawford. Seriously, those are your top four scorers/shot takers. They average 21 ppg, 16ppg, 14ppg, and 17ppg, roughly. Marvin averages 10ppg, so between those 5 guys, you have roughly 78 ppg. We haven’t counted Bibby or any of the other guys on the bench.

Having said that, I would like for Marvin to score more. I’d like to see him get about 15ppg. But what would you consider a breakout year? 20ppg? 18ppg? For that to happen, he either has to be taking somebody else’s shots, or this team has to come up with a system that scores more points. I’m not disagreeing with you, just trying to put it into perspective.

As for Bibby, he’s on the way down, man. Dude can hit some shots, but he’s becoming inconsistent.

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Sure. Why not.

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Northcyde ,

Sorry, mistaken identity I suppose, this being a computer forum and all that. Nope, dude didn’t “do a number on me”, you just sound EXACTLY like him. I won’t go into detail, but it was entertaining (as are you). Yes, I know you post on Hawksquawk. Other people know that, too, knew it before I did. Must have been fun moderating the ESPN Hawks boards. I’ll have to settle for the obscurity of moderating the AJC Hawks fan forum.

No need to change my name, or come up with fake names, or any of that.

Your mom named you northcyde? Just kidding….

I love the Hawks. Have for a very long time…

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http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Rebounds.jsp?league=00&season=22009&conf=OVERALL&position=0&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=Y&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=

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http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-kobelakers031310&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

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After this next game at NJ, we get to see what we’re really made of.

@TOR, CHA, SA, @MIL, ORL, @PHI

Because of how we’ve played recently, I can only expect us to come out of that 3-3 at best. However, knowing the Hawks and after sucking against crappy teams, they might come out and go like 4-2 against much better comp.

Regardless how Ws and Ls play out during that 6 game stretch, I’m going to be looking to see if we can play smarter and hopefully with more chemistry.

I think it’s a joke that after all of this time, Woodson cant get these guys to look at least DECENT in the half-court set. maaayne thats some BS.

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Sautee, maybe TS is just trying to help Horford become an A+ center.

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Mary B, it is Woody’s fault he didn’t draft a pg. Wtf! He’s NEVER liked young pg’s. He didn’t want Paul or Williams. Hell, he didnt want Acie Law, but BK took him anyway just to piss him off. They weren’t the best of friends that year.

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DRMARYB-I’ve been saying that for sometime now, but how can we attack Howard when Woodson insists on starting and playing Bibby most of the PG mins? He can’t beat anyone off the dribble, let alone challenge Howard even if he does manage to get into the lane. MBarnes and DHoward are the only Orlando starters who play any DEF. When teams penetrate, he usually gets into foul trouble trying to cover for his teammates poor DEF, much like we end up doing with Bibby in the gm.

The Spurs have done pretty good winning NBA titles over the past few yrs without a dominant C, unless you consider Nazi Muhammad or Nesterovich dominant centers. In fact, they now have a dominant player named Tim Duncan playing C, and they’re struggling to make the playoffs.

What made these teams click without a dominant center is the presence of a dominant PG, like TParker and CBillups. Last yrs Lakers were the 1st team to win a championship without a dominant PG since the MJ, SPippen led Bulls. Yes TRUTH SERUM, you’re correct, AHorford isn’t a dominant center and the Hawks will never win an NBA title with him at center, AS LONG AS MIKE WOODSON IS THE HC, AND AS LONG AS HE INSISTS ON STARTING AND GIVING HEAVY MINS TO PG MBIBBY, THE SLOWEST, LEAST ATHLETIC AND MOST OFF AND DEF LIMITED PG IN THE ENTIRE NBA.

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Sam’l ,

I take it you missed my return post to you at 11:02 pm last night. Don’t know how you missed all the pure, unadulterated sarcasm in my post to Grandad, but hey…whichever…

By the way, I’m not sure where you read the idea that people are wondering if the Hawks can beat New Jersey, but it wasn’t on the Hawks Fan Nest. My post clearly illustrated how badly the Hawks have beaten New Jersey, and the question was whether or not the Nets could even be competitive.

Also, most of the posts are about who to pick up in the upcoming draft, and who we might get matched up with in the playoffs. Not sure what your issue with me is…you got a warm reception the few times you stopped by on the fan blog.

One more thing. Those “kindergarten fans” you mention all post here as well. And you call me a hypocrite? Whatever floats the raft, bro’….

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I never said this, someone is using my name to help there sick opinion. I would never move Josh to small forward because he is one of the best power forwards in the NBA and considerably better than Al. I would use Al off the bench as a backup 4/5

“Truth Serum

March 15th, 2010
8:29 am

Get a real center. Move Horford to pf. Move Josh to sf. Get rid of Marvin. Championship.”

Its a sad day when your argument is so said you need to use my name to help your sickness. Al backs up Josh and the center. Josh stays put!

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Truth-serum,

About this: “Al has peaked.”

So if he has peaked, what explains this:

Since the All-Star game Al is tied for 4th in scoring among centers at 16.9 /gm

Here’s the link: http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Scoring.jsp?league=00&season=22009&conf=OVERALL&position=1&splitType=19&splitScope=GAME&qualified=Y&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=Post%20AllStar

His season average is 14.1 points. If he has peaked, why the uptick in his scoring?

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Sautee Its not about a 2week hot streak, its about a season long effort. I appreciate you trying to put a positive spend on a lackluster campaign. The MAJOR point I think you are in DENIAL about is the fact that Al is among the weakest defenders in the pro game when playing the 5. Its about DEFENSE. READ MY LIPS: D-E-F-E-N-S-E-! – A WORD FOREIGN TO AL!

Al has been here what…4-5 years now, He hasnt grown into the great defender management hoped for. Hes peaked and he is ….what he is, a very good power forward, but not as good a power forward as Josh!

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*Woodson, will be easily marketed, (and worth every penny).

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Truth-serum lies again:

He just said this: “Al has peaked.#15th rebounder among centers and #18 for block shots Among centers.”

While #18 in blocks is correct…….

Truth=serum KNOWS that #15 is OVERALL against all players, but he keeps on lying about it. He was clearly shown last night, that the link he keeps on posting is for ALL POSITIONS. If any of you doubt it, just go to the link Truth-serum provided at 8:20 last night. Click on that link, and this will come up:

Rebounds Leaders > 2009-2010 > Regular Season > All Positions > All Players > Per Game > All Conferences > Qualified Only

Notice that truth-serum’s link leads you to” All Positions” and NOT to Centers.

Horford, as of today, is tied with Al Jefferson at 7th among Centers in rebounding / game.

And here’s the link:
http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Rebounds.jsp?league=00&season=22009&conf=OVERALL&position=1&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=Y&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=All%20Teams

Note that when my link is clicked you come up with this:

Rebounds Leaders > 2009-2010 > Regular Season > Center > All Players > Per Game > All Conferences > Qualified Only

Indicating that the filter is set to measure that stats of centers.

Truth-serum, you don’t need to lie to tell us you don’t like Horford. We get it without the lies.

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BTW, Marvin averaged 14 points last season and 15 the previous season. Just saying.

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Astro Joe

March 15th, 2010
12:57 pm

TS… uh, Horford is about 2.67 years into his pro career.

Thanks, I wasnt sure, he just seems so old.

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Marvin? Energy? Wow!

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While Josh is in the top 4 for all position in blocks shots, and a top 5 for rebounding forwards who arent also classified as centers, Al is finishing off a quarter pounder with cheese hoping to freeload a rebound after josh plays the defense…..

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True but he put more Id take chocolate thunder any day, you did not run over him and push him out of the paint like Al bytchford.

Darryl Dawkins – Mr. Chocolate Thunder

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What if Marvin made two more of the wide open jump shots he usually misses per game………. He wouldn’t need any additional shots.

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SAUTEE-DAMN, YOU ARE THE MAN! If you must, keep hitting these SELFSERVING HATERS in the face with facts and their own self diluting BS. Isn’t it amazing how these clowns can’t even keep up with their own BS? Out of one side of his mouth, this fool claims THE CENTER POSITION ISN’T ABOUT REBOUNDING, and that ANYONE WHO KEEPS REFERRING TO NUMBERS WHOSE REVELANCE IS MINUET doesn’t know anything about the center position.

Now all of a sudden, he’s talking out of the other side of his crooked mouth, now that it suits his selfserving purpose, and making REBOUNDING and Horford’s NUMBERS REVELANT.

TRUTH SERUM-Please stop trying to promote your AHORFORD HATING BS by putting words in my mouth. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT ANYONE PLAYING CENTER FOR THE LAKERS. MY COMMENT WAS ABOUT THEM BEING THE ONLY TEAM TO WIN A NBA TITLE WITHOUT A DOMINANT PG(POINT GUARD) SINCE THE MJORDAN, SPIPPEN LED BULLS.

Since you’re so adamant about us needing someone other than AHorford at center, why don’t you give us the name of a center that’s currently doing a better overall job than Horford, and that we’d have a possible chance of acquiring? I would say you’re making a complete ASS of yourself by attacking Horford, but you already know that. You’re just reveling in the attention your rants against him are getting you.

We can drastically improve our speed, quickness, penetration, DEF and OFF tempo by giving JTeague Bibby’s mins, and/or bringing him off the bench. If any of you BIBBY LOVERS think playoff teams aren’t going to target Bibby and successfully create problems for us is just being downright stupid. There’s no way Bibby’s going to get quicker, faster, more athletic, better defensively or shoot more consistently, after failing in those areas and basically falling apart for most of the season.

Bibby’s overall regression and consistently poor play, along with Woodson’s stupidity and stubborn resistence to accepting the obvious about Bibby, will make it very likely we’ll end up with a 1st rd playoff elimination.

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AS I said last night, in 07-08 Boston won the title.

Their starting center, Kendrick Perkins averaged 6.1 rebounds / game which was 21st in the league among centers. (Horford was 8th at 9.7)

He also averaged 1.45 blocks / game which was 15th in the league among centers. (Horford was 21st at .94 / game)

15th in blocks, 21st in rebounding by their starting center and they won the title.

In 08-09 the Lakers won the title.

Their starting center Andrew Bynum averaged 8.0 rebounds / game which was 16th in rebounding among centers. (Horford was 9.3 which was 8th)

Bynum averaged 1.8 blocks / game which was 8th among centers. (Horford was 1.42 which was 16th)

8th in blocks, 16th in rebounding. And his team won the title.

So Horford is averaging MORE rebounds / game at this time than the last two centers who won a ring.

Just an inconvenient truth for some.

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As for defense at the center position, the only thing I can see to remotely measure this, is by using 82games.com and their “Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production” stat. If you click on the link, you’ll see Horford’s 82games.com player profile. Scroll all the way to the bottom to see the Opponent 48 minute production.

http://www.82games.com/0910/09ATL11.HTM#bypos

I won’t pay attention to Al’s production at PF, seeing that he’s only played a little time at PF. So I’ll focus on center. At Center, the opponent is shooting 51.2% FG vs Al . . and has a PER of 16.5

So the only thing I can know to do, is to see how the other centers in the league fare in those same stats. I’m listing what the opponent does against that center from a production standpoint. This does not take into account the defensive rebounding prowess of that player, which you have to factor in, when assessing a player defensively at center.

I have to admit, I am kinda shocked by this. Very shocked, to be honest.

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SORTED BY FG%

Okur: 48.8% FG . . . PER: 13.9 . . . PTS/48: 16.4
Howard: 48.9% FG . . . PER: 15.8 . . . PTS/48: 16.9
Hibbert: 49.2% FG . . . PER: 20.5 . . . PTS/48: 23.5
Perkins: 49.6% FG . . . PER: 16.3 . . . PTS/48: 18.8
Bogut: 49.7% FG . . . PER: 14.8 . . . PTS/48: 16.9

Hawes: 51.1% FG . . . PER: 17.9 . . . PTS/48: 18.4
Horford: 51.2% FG . . . PER: 16.5 . . . PTS/48: 16.2
Hayes: 51.3% FG . . . PER: 19.0 . . . PTS/48: 17.3
Duncan: 51.5% FG . . . PER: 17.5 . . . PTS/48: 17.9
Bynum: 51.7% FG . . . PER: 17.5 . . . PTS/48: 18.5

Ben Wallace: 52% FG . . . PER: 20.7 . . . PTS/48: 18.5
Heywood: 52.3% FG . . . PER: 18.3 . . PTS/48: 17.6
Dalembert: 52.6% FG . . . PER: 18.3 . . . PTS/48: 18.7
Nene: 52.8% FG . . .PER: 17.6 . . . PTS/48: 18.1
Brook Lopez: 52.9% FG . . . PER: 19.7 . . . PTS/48: 20.2

J. O’Neal: 53.4% FG . . . PER: 19.3 . . . PTS/48: 19.9
Marc Gasol: 55.2% FG . . . PER: 17.8 . . . PTS/48: 19.2
Kaman: 55.1% FG . . . PER: 20.1 . . . PTS/48: 20.0
Lee: 56.1% FG . . . PER: 22.1 . . . PTS/48: 21.4
Okafor: 57.8% FG . . . PER: 22.4 . . . PTS/48: 21.7

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SORTED BY PER

Okur: 48.8% FG . . . PER: 13.9 . . . PTS/48: 16.4
Bogut: 49.7% FG . . . PER: 14.8 . . . PTS/48: 16.9
Howard: 48.9% FG . . . PER: 15.8 . . . PTS/48: 16.9
Perkins: 49.6% FG . . . PER: 16.3 . . . PTS/48: 18.8
Horford: 51.2% FG . . . PER: 16.5 . . . PTS/48: 16.2

Duncan: 51.5% FG . . . PER: 17.5 . . . PTS/48: 17.9
Bynum: 51.7% FG . . . PER: 17.5 . . . PTS/48: 18.5
Nene: 52.8% FG . . .PER: 17.6 . . . PTS/48: 18.1
Marc Gasol: 55.2% FG . . . PER: 17.8 . . . PTS/48: 19.2
Hawes: 51.1% FG . . . PER: 17.9 . . . PTS/48: 18.4

Heywood: 52.3% FG . . . PER: 18.3 . . PTS/48: 17.6
Dalembert: 52.6% FG . . . PER: 18.3 . . . PTS/48: 18.7
Hayes: 51.3% FG . . . PER: 19.0 . . . PTS/48: 17.3
J. O’Neal: 53.4% FG . . . PER: 19.3 . . . PTS/48: 19.9
Brook Lopez: 52.9% FG . . . PER: 19.7 . . . PTS/48: 20.2

Kaman: 55.1% FG . . . PER: 20.1 . . . PTS/48: 20.0
Hibbert: 49.2% FG . . . PER: 20.5 . . . PTS/48: 23.5
Ben Wallace: 52% FG . . . PER: 20.7 . . . PTS/48: 18.5
Lee: 56.1% FG . . . PER: 22.1 . . . PTS/48: 21.4
Okafor: 57.8% FG . . . PER: 22.4 . . . PTS/48: 21.7

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SORTED BY PTS/48

Horford: 51.2% FG . . . PER: 16.5 . . . PTS/48: 16.2
Okur: 48.8% FG . . . PER: 13.9 . . . PTS/48: 16.4
Howard: 48.9% FG . . . PER: 15.8 . . . PTS/48: 16.9
Bogut: 49.7% FG . . . PER: 14.8 . . . PTS/48: 16.9
Hayes: 51.3% FG . . . PER: 19.0 . . . PTS/48: 17.3

Heywood: 52.3% FG . . . PER: 18.3 . . PTS/48: 17.6
Duncan: 51.5% FG . . . PER: 17.5 . . . PTS/48: 17.9
Nene: 52.8% FG . . .PER: 17.6 . . . PTS/48: 18.1
Hawes: 51.1% FG . . . PER: 17.9 . . . PTS/48: 18.4
Bynum: 51.7% FG . . . PER: 17.5 . . . PTS/48: 18.5

Ben Wallace: 52% FG . . . PER: 20.7 . . . PTS/48: 18.5
Dalembert: 52.6% FG . . . PER: 18.3 . . . PTS/48: 18.7
Perkins: 49.6% FG . . . PER: 16.3 . . . PTS/48: 18.8
Marc Gasol: 55.2% FG . . . PER: 17.8 . . . PTS/48: 19.2
J. O’Neal: 53.4% FG . . . PER: 19.3 . . . PTS/48: 19.9

Kaman: 55.1% FG . . . PER: 20.1 . . . PTS/48: 20.0
Brook Lopez: 52.9% FG . . . PER: 19.7 . . . PTS/48: 20.2
Lee: 56.1% FG . . . PER: 22.1 . . . PTS/48: 21.4
Okafor: 57.8% FG . . . PER: 22.4 . . . PTS/48: 21.7
Hibbert: 49.2% FG . . . PER: 20.5 . . . PTS/48: 23.5

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Totally shocked.

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Why is it we keep producing offensive number when the issue is defense? yes, he is an average offensive player.

But he is a bottom feeder defensively….DUH!

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Joe Mama . . . everything I posted in the previous thread . .. is what the opposing center does against that center. Those are defensive statistics I posted . . . not offensive.

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I’m listing what the opponent does against that center from a production standpoint.

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Somebody needs a statistics primer.

If the best in the league at defending opposing centers is giving up 48.8% and Al is 7th at 51.2% then he’s only 2.4% behind the very best. And as we’ve been told 2.4% isn’t very much. Heck, some people think 22.6% isn’t very much.

Look at all the “true centers” on that list that are defending THEIR man WORSE than Al.

Thanks northcyde for some good perspective. And I’m as shocked a you. I thought Horford was a good man-on-man defender, but I was unaware that he was among the league leaders.

But this shows him in the top 5 overall. No wonder he made the All-Star team.

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northcyde

March 15th, 2010
3:28 pm

Joe Mama . . . everything I posted in the previous thread . .. is what the opposing center does against that center. Those are defensive statistics I posted . . . not offensive.

Yes, I wasnt referring to you. I applauded your post, how ever, as I said this only covers center to center scoring and no way is 52% a number to brag about and I agree, block are a very significant measurement as for the defensive strength of a center. Rebounds also play a part. When you total all up Horford is about AVERAGE in some ways and LESS THAN in other ways but in NO Way is he exceptional.

Bottom line among centers Al defensively is ……

8th in center Rebounds
18th in Block shots
51.2 % of the time his man will score when he shoots over all
The other power forwards and small forward and guards dunk on all too.

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Hey truth-serum, what happened to Al being #15 in rebounds among centers. You said it a dozen times in the last 48 hours. Are you NOW admitting that you were wrong?

Northcyde JUST SHOWED that Al is a top 5 defensive center.

Sorry if that inconvenient truth doesn’t line up with your agenda.

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Strickland, of course opposing teams will target Bibby. And likewise, we should be targeting the opposing team’s weak link, wherever it is. I’m not sure what validation you’re seeking… every team has a weak link and every other team attempts to exploit it. If Teague were starting with Horford, Smith, Marvin and Joe… who do you think opposing teams would target as our weak link in a playoff? And yes, team’s will also exploit someone who may be lacking in experience/knowledge (as well as physical limitations).

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Truth-serum,

You said this: “If we played man then that would be relevant but we cant because al’s man would dominate him.”

First, do you think we AREN’T playing man defense?

Secondly, did you miss the point of northcyde’s stats? It showed Al in the top 5 of the league in playing his man. If Al’s man was dominating him, how would he be listed in the top 5?

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I understand what He intended sautee, I just think it back fired. This is what he proved to me:

Bottom line among centers Al defensively is ……

8th in center Rebounds
18th in Block shots
51.2 % of the time his man will score when he shoots over all
The other power forwards and small forward and guards dunk on all too.”

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11.5 to 14.1 is a 22.6% increase. How big of an increase is that in the business world? If you could give your shareholders a 22.6% increase in profits, do you think they would complain?

Is 22.6% better over a single year considered ANYTHING OTHER than major growth?

More inconvenient truth.

Marvin’s second year went from 8.5 to 13.1 which is 54% growth. And from there, he averaged 14.5 over the next 2 seasons.

And since when is comparing Horford to Marvin considered a diss for Horford?

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So Truth-serum,

You said this: “This is what he proved to me:

Bottom line among centers Al defensively is ……

8th in center Rebounds
18th in Block shots
51.2 % of the time his man will score when he shoots over all”

OK, that’s what the chart proved to you. I know it’s difficult to have someone give concrete evidence that Al is a better defender than you wish.

Did you also notice the “true centers” on the list that give up an even HIGHER % than Al?

Centers like:

Andrew Bynum 51.7%
Ben Wallace 52.%

Oh wait, he’s only 6′ 9″, sorry.

Brendan Heywood 52.3%
Sam Dalembert 52.6%
Nene 52.8%
B. Lopez 52.9%

Gee, one would THINK that those big bodies would hold their man to a lower % than itty bitty Al Horford. And just think, with our switching D, part of the time those centers are guarded by Bibby. You’d THINK that would affect the stats downward. Al must REALLY be doing well to offset that disadvantage.

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ASTRO JOE-It’s true, every team does have weaknesses, but no other team but us has the NBA’s slowest, least athletic and least productive starting PG. While Bibby isn’t the only PG that doesn’t play DEF, he’s probably the worst scoring and lowest assist generating starting PG in that group.

We either have to get a hell of a lot more OFF production, and/or a lot more DEF out our PG’s. Even dilusional BIBBY LOVERS know we’re never going to get anymore DEF out of Bibby, and we’re not likely to get much more OFF either, at least not on a consistent basis. Woodson is too loyal to Bibby, too stubbornly opposed to giving any rookie PG an honest chance to develop and produce, and too stupid to split their mins equitably and combine their talents to get the production we need at PG. STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES!

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Hello I am a big fan of the atlanta Hawks.

(no offense but I think the LA Lakers are better)

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