Hawks squawks: Hawks 112, Pistons 99
- Ken Sugiura sitting in for MC.
- I’m curious how you grade the game. To me, the most impressive thing was the second quarter. After jumping out early, I figured the Hawks would let Detroit back in the game, but they turned it up a notch, which, as you know better than I do, has not always been the case. One play that stands out is Jamal Crawford D’ing up Ben Gordon out beyond the 3-point line, poking the ball away and cruising in for a dunk.
- Jamal: “It’s contagious. I think that’s a part of my game, going towards the playoffs, I want to be a better all-around player than I was at the start of the season. I will be. I vow to be.”
- Real strong defensive showing in the first half. It seemed like every Detroit shot was contested. Lots of deflections.
- However, the Hawks got a little lax in the second half defensively. Of course, as was repeated a few times in the locker room, all teams go on runs. But not all runs have to lead to a team scoring 58 points in the second half, as the Pistons did, which was their fourth-best second half of the season.
- Mike Woodson: “If we can beat them by 40, we would have, but they played their butts off in the second half. Like I said, they’re professionals, too.”
- But perhaps the takeaway is that the Hawks got back on it and closed out the game strong.
- Al Horford: “We’ve had our misfortunes in giving up leads. Even though we blew a pretty significant lead, we were still able to hold them off and finish the game out the right way.”
- Interesting quote from John Kuester: “They know how to turn it on when they have to, and that’s going to be important, because as time goes on and you get ready for the playoffs, you have to be prepared to turn it for 48 minutes.”
- Will Bynum with his take on one of your favorite topics: “I think their switching defense gave us a problem early on in the game. It made it difficult for us in our offense, especially on the wings.”
- Josh Smith on Zaza Pachulia’s behind-the-back pass to Joe Smith: “It was nice. I know we’re definitely going to hear about that for a couple weeks. He’’s not going to let that go.”
- Whaddya think?
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190 comments Add your comment
terrell
March 15th, 2010
1:57 pm
Marvin? Energy? Wow!
Joe Mama
March 15th, 2010
2:32 pm
“7 better rebounding center and 17 better shot blocking center?”
Just a little less than average Al huh?
Dude, I see what you mean about the dude takes a holiday on defense. I’m sure that’s Bibby’s fault.-LMAO
Joe Mama
March 15th, 2010
2:39 pm
While Josh is in the top 4 for all position in blocks shots, and a top 5 for rebounding forwards who arent also classified as centers, Al is finishing off a quarter pounder with cheese hoping to freeload a rebound after josh plays the defense…..
vava74
March 15th, 2010
2:39 pm
Darryl Dawkins! Come back! We need you as our enforcer!!! You and your 7rpg and 1bkpg career averages!!!!!!!!
Come back!!! Please!!!!
Joe Mama
March 15th, 2010
2:44 pm
True but he put more Id take chocolate thunder any day, you did not run over him and push him out of the paint like Al bytchford.
Darryl Dawkins – Mr. Chocolate Thunder
Joe Mama
March 15th, 2010
2:46 pm
Darryl Dawkins – Mr. Chocolate Thunder-more of a force and impact than the hamburgerler AL Hoe Ford
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeqKjXKGrFI
Nate ArchiBALL
March 15th, 2010
2:50 pm
What if Marvin made two more of the wide open jump shots he usually misses per game………. He wouldn’t need any additional shots.
Joe Mama
March 15th, 2010
2:56 pm
Phoenix Suns Take Care of Undermanned New Orleans Hornets Behind 36 from Amare Stoudemire
Ken Strickland
March 15th, 2010
3:01 pm
SAUTEE-DAMN, YOU ARE THE MAN! If you must, keep hitting these SELFSERVING HATERS in the face with facts and their own self diluting BS. Isn’t it amazing how these clowns can’t even keep up with their own BS? Out of one side of his mouth, this fool claims THE CENTER POSITION ISN’T ABOUT REBOUNDING, and that ANYONE WHO KEEPS REFERRING TO NUMBERS WHOSE REVELANCE IS MINUET doesn’t know anything about the center position.
Now all of a sudden, he’s talking out of the other side of his crooked mouth, now that it suits his selfserving purpose, and making REBOUNDING and Horford’s NUMBERS REVELANT.
TRUTH SERUM-Please stop trying to promote your AHORFORD HATING BS by putting words in my mouth. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT ANYONE PLAYING CENTER FOR THE LAKERS. MY COMMENT WAS ABOUT THEM BEING THE ONLY TEAM TO WIN A NBA TITLE WITHOUT A DOMINANT PG(POINT GUARD) SINCE THE MJORDAN, SPIPPEN LED BULLS.
Since you’re so adamant about us needing someone other than AHorford at center, why don’t you give us the name of a center that’s currently doing a better overall job than Horford, and that we’d have a possible chance of acquiring? I would say you’re making a complete ASS of yourself by attacking Horford, but you already know that. You’re just reveling in the attention your rants against him are getting you.
We can drastically improve our speed, quickness, penetration, DEF and OFF tempo by giving JTeague Bibby’s mins, and/or bringing him off the bench. If any of you BIBBY LOVERS think playoff teams aren’t going to target Bibby and successfully create problems for us is just being downright stupid. There’s no way Bibby’s going to get quicker, faster, more athletic, better defensively or shoot more consistently, after failing in those areas and basically falling apart for most of the season.
Bibby’s overall regression and consistently poor play, along with Woodson’s stupidity and stubborn resistence to accepting the obvious about Bibby, will make it very likely we’ll end up with a 1st rd playoff elimination.
Joe Mama
March 15th, 2010
3:01 pm
14.1
-11.5
———
2.6
I see what you mean, major growth.
And thats with Woody making an extra effort to get him the ball more this year than last.
Sautee
March 15th, 2010
3:02 pm
AS I said last night, in 07-08 Boston won the title.
Their starting center, Kendrick Perkins averaged 6.1 rebounds / game which was 21st in the league among centers. (Horford was 8th at 9.7)
He also averaged 1.45 blocks / game which was 15th in the league among centers. (Horford was 21st at .94 / game)
15th in blocks, 21st in rebounding by their starting center and they won the title.
In 08-09 the Lakers won the title.
Their starting center Andrew Bynum averaged 8.0 rebounds / game which was 16th in rebounding among centers. (Horford was 9.3 which was 8th)
Bynum averaged 1.8 blocks / game which was 8th among centers. (Horford was 1.42 which was 16th)
8th in blocks, 16th in rebounding. And his team won the title.
So Horford is averaging MORE rebounds / game at this time than the last two centers who won a ring.
Just an inconvenient truth for some.
Sautee
March 15th, 2010
3:15 pm
11.5 to 14.1 is a 22.6% increase. How big of an increase is that in the business world? If you could give your shareholders a 22.6% increase in profits, do you think they would complain?
Is 22.6% better over a single year considered ANYTHING OTHER than major growth?
More inconvenient truth.
northcyde
March 15th, 2010
3:18 pm
As for defense at the center position, the only thing I can see to remotely measure this, is by using 82games.com and their “Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production” stat. If you click on the link, you’ll see Horford’s 82games.com player profile. Scroll all the way to the bottom to see the Opponent 48 minute production.
http://www.82games.com/0910/09ATL11.HTM#bypos
I won’t pay attention to Al’s production at PF, seeing that he’s only played a little time at PF. So I’ll focus on center. At Center, the opponent is shooting 51.2% FG vs Al . . and has a PER of 16.5
So the only thing I can know to do, is to see how the other centers in the league fare in those same stats. I’m listing what the opponent does against that center from a production standpoint. This does not take into account the defensive rebounding prowess of that player, which you have to factor in, when assessing a player defensively at center.
I have to admit, I am kinda shocked by this. Very shocked, to be honest.
***********************
SORTED BY FG%
Okur: 48.8% FG . . . PER: 13.9 . . . PTS/48: 16.4
Howard: 48.9% FG . . . PER: 15.8 . . . PTS/48: 16.9
Hibbert: 49.2% FG . . . PER: 20.5 . . . PTS/48: 23.5
Perkins: 49.6% FG . . . PER: 16.3 . . . PTS/48: 18.8
Bogut: 49.7% FG . . . PER: 14.8 . . . PTS/48: 16.9
Hawes: 51.1% FG . . . PER: 17.9 . . . PTS/48: 18.4
Horford: 51.2% FG . . . PER: 16.5 . . . PTS/48: 16.2
Hayes: 51.3% FG . . . PER: 19.0 . . . PTS/48: 17.3
Duncan: 51.5% FG . . . PER: 17.5 . . . PTS/48: 17.9
Bynum: 51.7% FG . . . PER: 17.5 . . . PTS/48: 18.5
Ben Wallace: 52% FG . . . PER: 20.7 . . . PTS/48: 18.5
Heywood: 52.3% FG . . . PER: 18.3 . . PTS/48: 17.6
Dalembert: 52.6% FG . . . PER: 18.3 . . . PTS/48: 18.7
Nene: 52.8% FG . . .PER: 17.6 . . . PTS/48: 18.1
Brook Lopez: 52.9% FG . . . PER: 19.7 . . . PTS/48: 20.2
J. O’Neal: 53.4% FG . . . PER: 19.3 . . . PTS/48: 19.9
Marc Gasol: 55.2% FG . . . PER: 17.8 . . . PTS/48: 19.2
Kaman: 55.1% FG . . . PER: 20.1 . . . PTS/48: 20.0
Lee: 56.1% FG . . . PER: 22.1 . . . PTS/48: 21.4
Okafor: 57.8% FG . . . PER: 22.4 . . . PTS/48: 21.7
*********************
SORTED BY PER
Okur: 48.8% FG . . . PER: 13.9 . . . PTS/48: 16.4
Bogut: 49.7% FG . . . PER: 14.8 . . . PTS/48: 16.9
Howard: 48.9% FG . . . PER: 15.8 . . . PTS/48: 16.9
Perkins: 49.6% FG . . . PER: 16.3 . . . PTS/48: 18.8
Horford: 51.2% FG . . . PER: 16.5 . . . PTS/48: 16.2
Duncan: 51.5% FG . . . PER: 17.5 . . . PTS/48: 17.9
Bynum: 51.7% FG . . . PER: 17.5 . . . PTS/48: 18.5
Nene: 52.8% FG . . .PER: 17.6 . . . PTS/48: 18.1
Marc Gasol: 55.2% FG . . . PER: 17.8 . . . PTS/48: 19.2
Hawes: 51.1% FG . . . PER: 17.9 . . . PTS/48: 18.4
Heywood: 52.3% FG . . . PER: 18.3 . . PTS/48: 17.6
Dalembert: 52.6% FG . . . PER: 18.3 . . . PTS/48: 18.7
Hayes: 51.3% FG . . . PER: 19.0 . . . PTS/48: 17.3
J. O’Neal: 53.4% FG . . . PER: 19.3 . . . PTS/48: 19.9
Brook Lopez: 52.9% FG . . . PER: 19.7 . . . PTS/48: 20.2
Kaman: 55.1% FG . . . PER: 20.1 . . . PTS/48: 20.0
Hibbert: 49.2% FG . . . PER: 20.5 . . . PTS/48: 23.5
Ben Wallace: 52% FG . . . PER: 20.7 . . . PTS/48: 18.5
Lee: 56.1% FG . . . PER: 22.1 . . . PTS/48: 21.4
Okafor: 57.8% FG . . . PER: 22.4 . . . PTS/48: 21.7
*********************
SORTED BY PTS/48
Horford: 51.2% FG . . . PER: 16.5 . . . PTS/48: 16.2
Okur: 48.8% FG . . . PER: 13.9 . . . PTS/48: 16.4
Howard: 48.9% FG . . . PER: 15.8 . . . PTS/48: 16.9
Bogut: 49.7% FG . . . PER: 14.8 . . . PTS/48: 16.9
Hayes: 51.3% FG . . . PER: 19.0 . . . PTS/48: 17.3
Heywood: 52.3% FG . . . PER: 18.3 . . PTS/48: 17.6
Duncan: 51.5% FG . . . PER: 17.5 . . . PTS/48: 17.9
Nene: 52.8% FG . . .PER: 17.6 . . . PTS/48: 18.1
Hawes: 51.1% FG . . . PER: 17.9 . . . PTS/48: 18.4
Bynum: 51.7% FG . . . PER: 17.5 . . . PTS/48: 18.5
Ben Wallace: 52% FG . . . PER: 20.7 . . . PTS/48: 18.5
Dalembert: 52.6% FG . . . PER: 18.3 . . . PTS/48: 18.7
Perkins: 49.6% FG . . . PER: 16.3 . . . PTS/48: 18.8
Marc Gasol: 55.2% FG . . . PER: 17.8 . . . PTS/48: 19.2
J. O’Neal: 53.4% FG . . . PER: 19.3 . . . PTS/48: 19.9
Kaman: 55.1% FG . . . PER: 20.1 . . . PTS/48: 20.0
Brook Lopez: 52.9% FG . . . PER: 19.7 . . . PTS/48: 20.2
Lee: 56.1% FG . . . PER: 22.1 . . . PTS/48: 21.4
Okafor: 57.8% FG . . . PER: 22.4 . . . PTS/48: 21.7
Hibbert: 49.2% FG . . . PER: 20.5 . . . PTS/48: 23.5
***********************
Totally shocked.
Joe Mama
March 15th, 2010
3:22 pm
lakers – quit lying Saltee
Both played center
Gasol average 1.7 blks
Bynum average 1.4 blks
both played center
Perkins blks 1.97 2008/2009
garnett 1.19
Joe Mama
March 15th, 2010
3:23 pm
Why is it we keep producing offensive number when the issue is defense? yes, he is an average offensive player.
But he is a bottom feeder defensively….DUH!
northcyde
March 15th, 2010
3:27 pm
I don’t know what’s more shocking. Horford being statistically a top 5 defensive center this year . . . or ANDREW BOGUT being statistically a top 3 defensive center this year. And Bogut is basically doing that without a good PF at his side.
Also . . according to this, Mehmet Okur may be THE BEST on the ball defensive center this year. Howard is better defensively overall, because he blocks shots and rebounds at a much higher rate. But if you need a stop in general, Okur may be the guy to give it to you.
northcyde
March 15th, 2010
3:28 pm
Joe Mama . . . everything I posted in the previous thread . .. is what the opposing center does against that center. Those are defensive statistics I posted . . . not offensive.
Sautee
March 15th, 2010
3:31 pm
So northcyde, are you saying that these stats show that Al gives up the fewest points to his man per 48 minutes in the LEAGUE?
Yes, that’s shocking, if that’s what those stats show.
Joe Mama
March 15th, 2010
3:34 pm
I’m listing what the opponent does against that center from a production standpoint.
Joe Mama
March 15th, 2010
3:39 pm
So northcyde, are you saying that these stats show that Al gives up the fewest points to his man per 48 minutes in the LEAGUE?
Yes, that’s shocking, if that’s what those stats show.
” I’m listing what the opponent does against that center from a production standpoint.”
WHAT IS SHOCKING IS HOW YOU AND KEN MISCONSTRUE STATS! SAUTEE.
Sautee
March 15th, 2010
3:49 pm
Somebody needs a statistics primer.
If the best in the league at defending opposing centers is giving up 48.8% and Al is 7th at 51.2% then he’s only 2.4% behind the very best. And as we’ve been told 2.4% isn’t very much. Heck, some people think 22.6% isn’t very much.
Look at all the “true centers” on that list that are defending THEIR man WORSE than Al.
Thanks northcyde for some good perspective. And I’m as shocked a you. I thought Horford was a good man-on-man defender, but I was unaware that he was among the league leaders.
But this shows him in the top 5 overall. No wonder he made the All-Star team.
northcyde
March 15th, 2010
3:52 pm
Sautee . . . Yeah . . that’s what it’s showing. I mean, when you see the guys who are at or near the top of each of those lists like Howard, Duncan and Perkins, you have to take some stock into what this shows.
@ Joe Mama . . . I purposely looked at this from 3 different perspectives. If you look at a guy like Roy Hibbert, he’s actually a good defensive center from a FG% perspective. But when you start looking at PER and PTS/48, he ranks near the bottom. That’s partially because opposing centers know that they can go right at Hibbert, and he’s lazy when guarding jumpshooting centers. So while the defensive FG% is good for Hibbert, he gives up way too much production from opposing centers going right at him.
To penalize Horford for not stopping opposing PGs from blowing by Bibby, Crawford or JJ ( when he guards them ), doesn’t reduce Horford’s defensive prowess, when playing people straight up.
Playing defense is much more than simply blocking shots. Same way with steals. Give me a guy who plays great position defense that will cause missed shots, than a guy who blocks a lot of shots, but can’t stop anybody when he’s matched up against a guy trying to score on him in the low post.
Joe Mama
March 15th, 2010
3:52 pm
northcyde
March 15th, 2010
3:28 pm
Joe Mama . . . everything I posted in the previous thread . .. is what the opposing center does against that center. Those are defensive statistics I posted . . . not offensive.
Yes, I wasnt referring to you. I applauded your post, how ever, as I said this only covers center to center scoring and no way is 52% a number to brag about and I agree, block are a very significant measurement as for the defensive strength of a center. Rebounds also play a part. When you total all up Horford is about AVERAGE in some ways and LESS THAN in other ways but in NO Way is he exceptional.
Bottom line among centers Al defensively is ……
8th in center Rebounds
18th in Block shots
51.2 % of the time his man will score when he shoots over all
The other power forwards and small forward and guards dunk on all too.
Joe Mama
March 15th, 2010
3:56 pm
I understand your slant, but its the center job to protect the rim, not the guards or the power forwards. If we played man then that would be relevant but we cant because al’s man would dominate him.
I understand what you wanted to show emotionally, but the better centers are posting numbers that show their man scoring on them LESS than 50% of the time not more…..
Sautee
March 15th, 2010
3:58 pm
Hey truth-serum, what happened to Al being #15 in rebounds among centers. You said it a dozen times in the last 48 hours. Are you NOW admitting that you were wrong?
Northcyde JUST SHOWED that Al is a top 5 defensive center.
Sorry if that inconvenient truth doesn’t line up with your agenda.
Joe Mama
March 15th, 2010
3:59 pm
Got to go, its finals week for the quarter… here s my finale statements,
“I agree, block are a very significant measurement as for the defensive strength of a center. Rebounds also play a part. When you total all up Horford is about AVERAGE in some ways and LESS THAN in other ways but in NO Way is he exceptional.
Bottom line among centers Al defensively is ……
8th in center Rebounds
18th in Block shots
51.2 % of the time his man will score when he shoots over all
The other power forwards and small forward and guards dunk on all too.”
Enjoyed the conversation! have a good evening guys.
Astro Joe
March 15th, 2010
4:00 pm
Strickland, of course opposing teams will target Bibby. And likewise, we should be targeting the opposing team’s weak link, wherever it is. I’m not sure what validation you’re seeking… every team has a weak link and every other team attempts to exploit it. If Teague were starting with Horford, Smith, Marvin and Joe… who do you think opposing teams would target as our weak link in a playoff? And yes, team’s will also exploit someone who may be lacking in experience/knowledge (as well as physical limitations).
Joe Mama
March 15th, 2010
4:04 pm
Yes Sautee, I was wrong this week al is number 8 and has moved up from last week.
‘
No Sautee, what Northcyde showed was all is easy to score on and when you consider he is 8th in rebounders, 18th for block shots and his own man scores on him 51.2% of the time when he attempts a shot.
If you want to call those numbers “good”,. Id say you and northcyde are on drugs. Have a nice evening.
Sautee
March 15th, 2010
4:05 pm
Truth-serum,
You said this: “If we played man then that would be relevant but we cant because al’s man would dominate him.”
First, do you think we AREN’T playing man defense?
Secondly, did you miss the point of northcyde’s stats? It showed Al in the top 5 of the league in playing his man. If Al’s man was dominating him, how would he be listed in the top 5?
Joe Mama
March 15th, 2010
4:05 pm
Astro Joe theres a 51.2% chance if you get the ball in the middle against all you can count the basket with a possible and 1, so Im going inside in the crunch!
Joe Mama
March 15th, 2010
4:08 pm
I understand what He intended sautee, I just think it back fired. This is what he proved to me:
Bottom line among centers Al defensively is ……
8th in center Rebounds
18th in Block shots
51.2 % of the time his man will score when he shoots over all
The other power forwards and small forward and guards dunk on all too.”
Joe Mama
March 15th, 2010
4:09 pm
and no, we play a switching defense.
Astro Joe
March 15th, 2010
4:13 pm
11.5 to 14.1 is a 22.6% increase. How big of an increase is that in the business world? If you could give your shareholders a 22.6% increase in profits, do you think they would complain?
Is 22.6% better over a single year considered ANYTHING OTHER than major growth?
More inconvenient truth.
Marvin’s second year went from 8.5 to 13.1 which is 54% growth. And from there, he averaged 14.5 over the next 2 seasons.
And since when is comparing Horford to Marvin considered a diss for Horford?
Sautee
March 15th, 2010
4:21 pm
AJ,
“Splain’ that to me again. I must have missed your point.
Was someone comparing Horford to Marvin?
Sautee
March 15th, 2010
4:35 pm
So Truth-serum,
You said this: “This is what he proved to me:
Bottom line among centers Al defensively is ……
8th in center Rebounds
18th in Block shots
51.2 % of the time his man will score when he shoots over all”
OK, that’s what the chart proved to you. I know it’s difficult to have someone give concrete evidence that Al is a better defender than you wish.
Did you also notice the “true centers” on the list that give up an even HIGHER % than Al?
Centers like:
Andrew Bynum 51.7%
Ben Wallace 52.%
Oh wait, he’s only 6′ 9″, sorry.
Brendan Heywood 52.3%
Sam Dalembert 52.6%
Nene 52.8%
B. Lopez 52.9%
Gee, one would THINK that those big bodies would hold their man to a lower % than itty bitty Al Horford. And just think, with our switching D, part of the time those centers are guarded by Bibby. You’d THINK that would affect the stats downward. Al must REALLY be doing well to offset that disadvantage.
The Truth
March 15th, 2010
6:38 pm
Here is a revealing chart I customized comparing Al Horford and 3 other top centers. Since I was only limited to a total of 4 centers in the comparison, I selected Dwight Howard, Andrew Bogart and Brandon Haywood along with Al Horford in the sample. What’s revealing is that this chart presents advance measurements that exposed player detail performance factors not previously discussed
If you look under the advance chart and find these categories:
ORtg = Offense Rating; An Estimate of points produced or scored per 100 possessions
DRtg = Defense Rating; An Estimate of points allowed per 100 possessions
OWS = Offense Win Shares; An Estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player due to his offense
DWS = Defense Win Shares; An Estimate of the number of win contributed by a player due to his defense
WS = Win Shares; An estimate of wins contributed by a player
Summary: A mixed bag for Al Horford. A case of the good, the bad and the ugly
ORTg – AL ranked 1 out of 4 (good) (other players not far apart, however)
DRtg – AL ranked 2 out of 4 (good) (however, only slightly better than last two)
OWS – AL ranked 4 out of 4 (bad) (A sizeable gap between Howard and AL)
DWS – AL ranked 4 out of 4 (awful) (A noticeable spread between Al and the rest)
WS – AL ranked 4 out of 4 (bad) (last in this group)
Ken Strickland
March 15th, 2010
7:29 pm
ASTRO JOE-It’s true, every team does have weaknesses, but no other team but us has the NBA’s slowest, least athletic and least productive starting PG. While Bibby isn’t the only PG that doesn’t play DEF, he’s probably the worst scoring and lowest assist generating starting PG in that group.
We either have to get a hell of a lot more OFF production, and/or a lot more DEF out our PG’s. Even dilusional BIBBY LOVERS know we’re never going to get anymore DEF out of Bibby, and we’re not likely to get much more OFF either, at least not on a consistent basis. Woodson is too loyal to Bibby, too stubbornly opposed to giving any rookie PG an honest chance to develop and produce, and too stupid to split their mins equitably and combine their talents to get the production we need at PG. STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES!
Big Ray
March 15th, 2010
11:52 pm
Heh….denial is stronger than any terms of logic, reason, or fact. You’d think that could be learned in college, but apparently not.
Joshua
March 22nd, 2010
12:53 am
Hello I am a big fan of the atlanta Hawks.
(no offense but I think the LA Lakers are better)
Joshua
March 22nd, 2010
12:55 am
I can imagine the hawks beating the kings,cavs,pistons,clippers,lakers,pacers,magic,spurs,wizards and the rockets 4 times in a row all of them.
Seriously the Lakers are 2nd in the compettion the cavs are 1st. GO HAWKS AND LAKERS.