Atlanta Hawks at Knicks, AKA Trapped In A Zone
Super commenters Najeh Davenpoop and O’Brien voiced their concerns about the Hawks vs. zone looks after the Heat used one to stymie the Hawks late in the game Saturday. The Mavericks did the same thing to come back and win on Feb. 26, and you’ve got to think the Knicks will show some zone tonight. Why wouldn’t they? The Hawks tend to seize up and waste possessions when they see it.
There’s even less player movement than normal, there are pointless passes around the perimeter and there are rushed shots. Woody has said most opponents back off the zone once the Hawks shoot them out of it. But what about those games like the two recent losses where they don’t shoot them out of it? Then it’s another “We missed good shots” lament after a defeat.
Clearly the Hawks have to figure out something else. So what exactly is the plan vs. a zone? “Good ball movement, attack the defense and penetrate and dish,” J.J. said after the loss to the Mavs. Sounds good. Now maybe the Hawks should try doing it.
– The New York Post says J.J. is “on display” tonight. The story notes J.J.’s good relationship with coach Mike D’Antoni and agent Arn Tellem’s good relationship with Knicks boss Donnie Walsh and speculates that Johnson could end up in New York. New York media desperate for the Knicks to be relevant again clearly covet LeBron–notice how the stories are about LeBron even when they aren’t–but now they seem to be focusing on J.J. as a consolation prize.
– D’Antoni wants to “speed up” the game by possibly giving Toney Douglas more minutes at point guard. Or maybe it will be Sergio Rodriguez. Either way, I don’t have to tell you that “quick point guard pushing the pace” isn’t something the Hawks really want to see.
– T-Mac is questionable because he’s feeling old.
– All Hawks players were at shootaround today and are good to go, reports FSN South/SportSouth Hawks sideline reporter James Verrett. I’m not with the team but will blog off television.
– Talk amongst yourselves, Hawks fans.
MC
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
493 comments Add your comment
bigdave
March 8th, 2010
4:13 pm
yea just play the starters the whole game.. thats it.
clarkekent
March 8th, 2010
4:14 pm
Woody misuses his bench with regularity. When the bench is playing well, he will not ride them. Around the 7min (2nd qrt) mark whether the bench is balling or not he we bring the starters back in. the other night, it was clear the heat were being outplayed by the hawks bench( Teague, Smith and ZaZa) . Wade had a short break and the Heat brought him right back in. Our smart coach (such a tactician): Back in come the cold starters and out go the hot bench players. Hawks lead went from 13 to 5 by halftime. Also, if the game is close, he will not take the starters out in the 2nd half. Crawford does not count as a bench player. I could go on about Woody’s non-usage of his bench but I rather not. Did I mention they played the night before?
Side note: The reason the Hawks are a running team is not because of the back court; it’s the front court. Josh, Marvin and Al beat most front courts back down the floor but when your PG and SG walks or jogs the ball up the court we have to play against set defense. (Zones in the 4thqrt) They need to push the ball as often as possible and as discussed they have to hit open shots. But when that doesn’t work the have to go inside either drive or post plays… make the defense react… not allow the defense to dictate to you what they want you to do.
KevinA
March 8th, 2010
4:24 pm
Why not make Arroyo take the shots shots to beat us. Playing Bibby just let’s both teams play 4 on 4. Putting West and Evans on Wade would force their hand. I think JJ could have slowed down Beasley. Wade is just to quick for him.
ant banks
March 8th, 2010
4:27 pm
MS DEE,
congrats on bein’ first. i think that is your first time, right?
WOODY HATERS,
please explain who we bring in if we can woody? i am jus’ as frustrated as you are with woodson, but i ain’t for firin’ him, until i know what the plan is for replacin’ him.
I HAVE READ NO INTELLIGENT DISCUSSION ABOUT WHO WE REPLACE WOODY WITH. AVERY, SCOTT, AND VAN GUNDY ALL WANT 6MIL MINIMUM. ASG AIN’T PAYIN’ THAT.
The Truth
March 8th, 2010
4:35 pm
Great teams draft great players. It easy to see why the Hawks struggles.
2000 Draft pick: No. 6 DerMarr Johnson (SG/SF) United States Atlanta Hawks
2001 Draft pick: No. 3 Pau Gasol* (PF/C) Spain Atlanta Hawks (traded to Vancouver for Shareef Abdur-Rahim) FC Barcelona (Spain) 1980
2003 Draft pick: No. 21 Diaw, BorisBoris Diaw SG France Atlanta Hawks (from Indiana) Pau-Orthez (France)
2004 Draft pick: No. 6 Josh Childress (G/F) United States Atlanta Hawks Stanford Jr.
2004 Draft pick: No. 17 Smith, Josh Josh Smith (SF) United States Atlanta Hawks (from Milwaukee via Denver and Detroit) Oak Hill Academy
2005 Draft pick: No. 2 Marvin Williams F United States Atlanta Hawks North Carolina Fr.
2005 Draft pick: No. 5 Shelden Williams F United States Atlanta Hawks Duke Sr.
2007 Draft pick: No. 3 Horford, AlAl Horford+ F/C Dominican Republic Atlanta Hawks Florida (Jr.)
2007 Draft pick: No. 11 Law, AcieAcie Law G United States Atlanta Hawks (from Indiana)[m] Texas A&M (Sr.)
2009 Draft pick: No. 19 Teague, JeffJeff Teague PG United States Atlanta Hawks Wake Forest (So.)
Melvin
March 8th, 2010
4:37 pm
Rockets and Blazers had to piece together their teams b/c of injuries and they are still in playoffs contention. Golden State whoop our butts with 8 players and half those players wasn’t drafted and sign from the the D-League. Exactly who are the big time players on the Heat, Bucks and Bulls bench? All of those teams are in the playoffs. And some bloggers wanted talk how weak the Hawks bench is? Maybe they wouldn’t look so weak/bad if they we were utilize on a consisent basis.
The Truth
March 8th, 2010
4:38 pm
Correction:
2006 Draft pick: No. 5 Shelden Williams F United States Atlanta Hawks Duke Sr.
Melvin
March 8th, 2010
4:38 pm
Oh yeah, outside of Lamar Odom. Who is on the Lakers bench that’s worth a crap?????
Melvin
March 8th, 2010
4:43 pm
“but i ain’t for firin’ him, until i know what the plan is for replacin’ him.” – Ant Banks
AB,
If the Hawks decide they were going to fire Woody, do you really expect them to announce a contingency plan or replacement candidate prior to doing it? Comeon, let’s not act like Woody is the only person that can coach this team.
JeJe
March 8th, 2010
4:50 pm
THE HAWKS ARE HEALTHY AND HAVE BEEN VIRTUALLY HEALTHY ALL YEAR. THE CELTICS AND CAVS AND MAGIC HAVE DEALT WITH PAINFUL INJURIES, AND ALL 3 TEAMS ARE BETTER THAN US IN THE STANDINGS AND IN PERSONNEL.
WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU ALL, HAWKS FANS??
JeJe
March 8th, 2010
4:52 pm
“LOL . . I hate to keep bagging on the bench, but some of you act like we have high quality bench players on this team. I still say that the guys we have on our team 7 through 10, could NOT get any sort of playing time on any of the current playoff teams. Guys like Zaza, Evans, Teague, and Joe Smith would be wasting away on the benches of other teams. Zaza’s play is probably the most disappointing out of all of those guys.”
On any of the current teams? LOL. I think ZaZa would get minutes on Miami or Toronto, but we all know already — you’re always right. ZaZa is a solid physical big who thinks he has an offensive game but doesn’t. That’s it
The guy we really need as our first center off the bench is Udonis Haslem.
clarkekent
March 8th, 2010
4:54 pm
JeJe- it tells you WOODY can’t coach.
Senor Basketball
March 8th, 2010
4:55 pm
Guys, guys, guys. It’s not about “being able to shoot” in order to bust a zone. Hell, it’s ALWAYS good to be able to shoot well, no matter the defense! It’s how you ATTACK it that’s key. And there are many ways to attack a zone. It’s just not something the Hawks have practiced (apparently) or thought about much. They can do it, they’ve just got to work at it a little.
bigdave
March 8th, 2010
5:03 pm
MELVIN…
CO SIGN… !!!
i fail to believe that our team is worse with contributions/mins from our “scrubs”. Joe Smith gave us good production in Mia… what happened to him 2nd half… ? if the bench warmer is playing well why not take advantage? guys on these other super benches couldnt find minutes here…
Najeh Davenpoop
March 8th, 2010
5:03 pm
If beating a zone was just about making shots, the best 3-point shooting team would win the NCAA Tournament every year.
You need to share the ball. Crisp passing is what beats zones. Sometimes that results in rhythm 3’s, but sometimes it does result in layups, especially when the 3-second rule prevents opposing big men from camping out in the lane.
‘Preciate the shout-out MC.
clarkekent
March 8th, 2010
5:03 pm
Je Je-
CLE, BOS, and ORL spent almost 20mil more than the hawks as well.. can you imagine what the hawks could do with another 20mil. thats a new coach and two more good bench players.
Najeh Davenpoop
March 8th, 2010
5:09 pm
And I realize not every field goal is either a 3 or a layup. Making mid-range shots is huge too. But currently, the Hawks’ strategy against a zone is to stand on the 3 point line and pass the ball around until the shot clock becomes a problem and then force up an out-of-rhythm shot. That strategy will never work, no matter who your players are.
ant banks
March 8th, 2010
5:15 pm
MELVIN,
i ain’t talkin’ about the hawks announcin’ the contingency plan. i am talkin’ about the suggestions that the bloggers have about replacin’ woody. they have suggestion on everything else…
JeJe
March 8th, 2010
5:27 pm
“Je Je-
CLE, BOS, and ORL spent almost 20mil more than the hawks as well.. can you imagine what the hawks could do with another 20mil. thats a new coach and two more good bench players.”
Even if we had 2 more bench players and a good coach, we’d still have Marvin and Bibby as starters
Najeh Davenpoop
March 8th, 2010
5:29 pm
If you look at this year’s Euroleague stats — Euroleague being a league where the zone defense is much more common than the NBA — you’ll see that as you go up the list from the worst team to the best team, attempted 3-pointers decrease while assists increase. I realize not all jump shots are 3’s (although my guess is a higher percentage of them are in the Euroleague since the 3-point line is shorter), and I don’t watch Euroleague basketball so I’m going entirely on stats here (which is something I don’t like to do). But my conclusion from this is that teams play better against zones when they share the ball more and rely on outside shooting less. Maybe someone who watches more Euroleague than me can back up or refute my theory.
TheBark n' TheBite
March 8th, 2010
5:36 pm
time for these bums to get smacked
clarkekent
March 8th, 2010
5:54 pm
JeJe – that’s funny!!!LOL
northcyde
March 8th, 2010
5:56 pm
@ O’Brien . . and the rest, if you want to check this out:
There is a great site on the net that tracks the game flows ( i.e. – substitution patters ) of each game played in the NBA. It shows you exactly when guys enters a game in a quarter, and what they did in that quarter. If you run your cursor over a player’s bar in that quarter, you’ll see more detailed stats, like exactly how long they played in the quarter, and what they statistically did.
From a team standpoint, it breaks down what a team did stastically in that particular quarter and in the game. It even gives you a +/- breakdown of each 5-man group that was in the game at a particular time.
http://www.popcornmachine.net
It’s a great resource to track substitution patterns by us and see what the actual flow of the game was. It gives you a clear snapshot of what went on in the game, and who did or didn’t step up at a particular time.
Now . . . after you go look to see our data in a game, look at what our opponent did, and who they played and how they subbed. Then, simply click on some of the other playoff teams and how they sub guys in and out games. Here’s what you’ll see:
* most of those teams go 8 or 9 deep ONLY. If a 10th man does play, it’s for spot minutes. But they’re not making an effort to play 10 guys every night, and especially not for 10+ minutes a night.
* most of those teams will play their bench players at the same time together, to give their starters maximum rest as a unit. And they do it between the end of 1st – beginning of 2nd quarters.
* most of those teams will also do the same thing at the end of 3rd – beginning of 4th. But those teams will also shorten the rotation by at least one man, if the team is struggling or behind.
* the teams that go 8 or 9 deep exclusively, will usually have a particular starter in a game with those group of bench players, whether it be one starter + 4 bench guys . . or 2 starters + 3 bench guys.
************
That kind of data can be seen on that site, when you go through Hawk games, and everybody else’s games. But as far as sprinkling our bench guys into a game, keep in mind what our best 5-man units are;
1) Bibby – Crawford – Johnson – Smith – Horford
2) Bibby – Johnson – Marvin – Smith – Horford
Those are the 2 lineups that win game for us.
O'Brien
March 8th, 2010
6:19 pm
northcyde,
I agree that in the playoffs, the main guys will play 38-40 minutes. However, that still means some of the bench guys will get 8-10 minutes per game. They need more consistent PT now so they will be ready for their brief appearances in the playoffs.
Plus, unlike most of the other teams, the Hawks have been injury free. What happens if one of our starters go down? We would expect one of our bench players to step up. Therefore, they need more consistent PT during the regular seasons games.
And do you think the bench players on other teams are just that talented? I think some of them have been developed by their coaches, and given the opportunites.
They say when life gives you lemons, you should make lemonade. All Woody does is ignore the lemons we have on the bench, while the starters continue to go stale in the fourth.
Sautee
March 8th, 2010
6:41 pm
northcyde,
You said this about our bench:
“If those guys played more, we’d have less wins and more losses. Until they start playing better, you can’t extend their minutes.”
This is conjecture, not fact. The fact is NONE of us know for sure whether the bench playing more would actually cause us losses.
Ken Strickland
March 8th, 2010
6:51 pm
COMMON SENSE BASKETBALL LOGIC 101 SAYS:
(1) The 1st thing to suffer when fatigue sets in is DEF.
(2) The 2nd thing to suffer when fatigue sets in is the ability to make jumpshots, especially 3pt shots.
(3) The 3rd thing to suffer when fatigue sets in is the ability to penetrate, elevate and finish strong at the basket.
A HC CAN’T CONSISTENTLY PLAY HIS KEY 6 PLAYERS HEAVY MINS AND EXPECT THEM TO CONSISTENTLY PERFORM EFFICIENTLY ON BOTH OFF AND DEF IN THE CLOSING MINS OF THE 4TH QUARTER OF GMS.
Blast
March 8th, 2010
7:15 pm
Lots of good stuff on the blog tonight.
And it all comes down to one thing.
Hawks must beat Knicks tonight.
Orlando keeps winning at a decent clip, and Celts marching right along behind them. I can forgive Hawks for losing to Miami, but not to NY (AGAIN!) with no tiny Nate!
Hope they’ve worked out how to solve the zone defence.
northcyde
March 8th, 2010
7:15 pm
@ Najeh:
That’s not correct in what you said about the 3 point shooting team in the NCAA tourney, although it’s teams like those that routinely pull off upsets. Whenever you see a small school beat a big school in the NCAA tourney, perimeter shooting is going to be the #1 reason why they usually won the game, because they don’t match up size wise with the big name school..
In that situation, the man to man defense is the way to play a 3 point shooting team, unless you extend and trap out of your zone ( ala what Syracuse does today . . . or how Jerry Tarkanian late 80s – early 90s UNLV Runnin Rebel teams used to play their “ameoba defense” ). But your man to man defense better be solid, because those are the teams that will screen you to death to free up their shooter.
The teams that win titles in the NCAA tourney, usually have the most NBA caliber prospects on their squad. Great talent usually wins out in the tourney.
**********
As for the people disputing my claims about the bench guys 7 through 10:
One guys asked . . “Who does the Lakers have on their bench besides Odom.”
That’s actually my point. Because the Lakers don’t have many quality bench players, Phil Jackson doesn’t even play the non-essential guys. He’ll go with a solid 8 man rotation. Odom, Shannon Brown, and Farmar are his guys. ( and no, our guys 7 – 10 could not take a spot from those guys, or be the 9th man on the Lakers ).
- Gasol can play both PF and C
- Odom can play PF and SF
- Artest can play SG, SF, and a smallish PF
- Shannon Brown can play SG and PG
Does this sound familiar? Does this sound like a team you’ve seen play before?
- Horford can play PF and C
- Marvin can play SF and PF
- JJ can play SG and SF
- Crawford can play SG and PG
The versatlity of both teams ( especially the starters on both teams ), are why the Lakers and Hawks have the #2 and #3 best starting lineups in the league.
I’ve said all along that Woody actually needs to go the opposite way with our bench. Instead of trying to play 10 guys . . . simply do like Phil Jackson, and play 8. I could care less who the 8 are . . just go with 8.
One has to obviously be Crawford.
And I guess to venture that the other one should be a big
So the 3rd guy could be whomever. I really could care less.
But if you guys really want the starters to rest, Woody needs to play 8 guys, and rotate them in the lineup. And he probably needs to bump Marvin back up to 30 minutes a game.
Anybody who isn’t in that core 8 . . . forget about them.
********
But let’s keep it real here. This whole “play the bench” campaign, isn’t really about playing the bench. It’s about playing TEAGUE. That’s the guy most people want to see get more playing time, regardless of how he’s playing.
O'Brien
March 8th, 2010
7:31 pm
northcyde,
“This whole “play the bench” campaign, isn’t really about playing the bench. It’s about playing TEAGUE.”
I also think Joe SMith needs more consistent PT too.
And if the starters are struggling, then I am open to the bench guys getting more burn, if the starters are struggling.
TheBark n' TheBite
March 8th, 2010
7:34 pm
Come on Hawks prove me wrong and dominate this game.
northcyde
March 8th, 2010
7:36 pm
So that’s your assignment class for the 1st half of this game . . . .watch how the subs play in the first half, starting with the insertion of Zaza or Evans in the lineup. Actually, this team gets a little off even when Crawford first enters a game at times.
Watch how the team plays, as the subs trickle in. Hopefully, guys like Zaza and Evans will play well tonight.
bigdave
March 8th, 2010
7:36 pm
lets get it..
clarkekent
March 8th, 2010
7:38 pm
o’brien – totally agree
joBjo
March 8th, 2010
7:40 pm
looks like Woody’s eyebrows are growing back in.
Sautee
March 8th, 2010
7:41 pm
northcyde,
Conventional wisdom has most teams shortening their rotation in the playoffs, right?
Last year in the Finals, the Lakers used 9+ in all five games. Admittedly two of the games were blowouts, but STILL Phil used 9+ in EVERY Finals game.
joBjo
March 8th, 2010
7:42 pm
Joe over at the Knicks bench yukking it up. a sign of things to come?
J.J.M.
March 8th, 2010
7:42 pm
This is the team joe will play for next season. fans should enjoy this
joBjo
March 8th, 2010
7:44 pm
no D from Smoove on that 3
joBjo
March 8th, 2010
7:45 pm
no D from Bib on that drive
joBjo
March 8th, 2010
7:49 pm
Galinari got the moose going on that do.
joBjo
March 8th, 2010
7:50 pm
wide open 3 for Walker. no D again.
TheBark n' TheBite
March 8th, 2010
7:50 pm
Nobody was even in rebounding position
joBjo
March 8th, 2010
7:52 pm
Woody preaches D? who’s he preaching to the AJC?
J.J.M.
March 8th, 2010
7:53 pm
Lee>Horford
joBjo
March 8th, 2010
7:54 pm
Enter your comments here
TheBark n' TheBite
March 8th, 2010
7:55 pm
Man forget Joe. Let him go to the knicks PLEASE. Sick of his now OVERRATED a.ss
J.J.M.
March 8th, 2010
7:56 pm
omg marvin sucks
Melvin
March 8th, 2010
7:56 pm
Seem like every team the Hawks play have dead-eye/knock down shooters…
joBjo
March 8th, 2010
7:57 pm
another wide open 3 for Galinari. no D again.
joBjo
March 8th, 2010
7:58 pm
Lee layup and foul on Al. no D again.