Late Hawks Squawks: Hawks 106, Bucks 102 (OT)
– The bottom line is the Hawks turned back a tough, scrappy opponent that came in a hot streak and avoided losing two straight at home for just the second time this season. “We all gutted it out,” Jamal said. “It was definitely intense and very physical out there.”
– So the bottom line looks good. Some of the other lines were ugly, though: 5 of 18 shooting in the fourth quarter, including 2 of 9 for J.J., 0 for 3 for Jamal and no shots at all in 11 minutes for Smoove.
– Basically, here’s how it went: bad Iso-Joe and the Hawks faltered, good Iso-Joe and they won.
– Fourth quarter Iso-Joe: fadeaway airball, missed 3-pointer, missed fadeaway, missed runner and the missed pull-up at the regulation buzzer. Overtime: 3-pointer, fadeaway jumper, baseline fadeaway, and a missed 21-footer.
– “When you get another chance you always want to come through,” J.J. said. “I wanted to make plays in that overtime to get us over the hump.”
– He shot 7 of 22 in regulation, 3 of 4 in overtime. “He’s going to have games like that,” Josh said. “We had to keep riding him to see if he could get going. He was making tough shots and tough moves on his guy. When he’s like that, we’ve got to keep giving it to him.”
– It worked out in the end because J.J. really is a very good one-on-one player even when a strong guy like John Salmons is up in his face. But the Iso approach contributed to the familiar no-ball-movement, poor-shot-selection formula that has hurt the Hawks late in games. They are a combined 16 for 54 (29.6) from the field in the fourth quarter of their last three games.
– At least the Hawks played some fourth-quarter D this time. After the Bucks shot 50 percent through three quarters, the Hawks held them to 6 of 17 in the fourth. As usual, the tighter D led to offense: six points off turnovers and seven fastbreak points in the fourth for the Hawks.
–The Bucks scored the first five points of overtime and it felt like the Mavericks all over again. “We knew what we had to do,” Jamal said. “We look at the Dallas game as a fluke. Our record in the last few minutes of the game is actually outstanding.”
– “Milwaukee has been hot lately but we were able to get the win,” Josh said. “It’s nice to have a win to get our confidence back. We just need to tighten it up on the defensive end and share the ball offensively.”
– I’m guessing at least four of Jamal’s 11 misses were forced. He’s now shooting 26 of 84 (31 percent) in the seven games since the All-Star break. He says the shoulder only bothers him when he drives to the hole. So it’s got to be that he’s just in some kind of funk right now.
– But he did have four assists and a steal against just one turnover. And, as he was sure to point out, he made his free throws.
– Nice D by Horford on Bogut on Milwaukee’s last possession of regulation. He held his ground against a bigger opponent who was determined to get to the basket. It’s how the Hawks had to play the Bucks in a game where officials allowed roughhousing.
– “We couldn’t back down,” Smoove said. “We didn’t take any mess. That’s how you’ve got to play when a team hits you in the mouth.”
– “It was a fun game to be on the court,” Zaza said.
– Stackhouse looked spry while scoring 10 points in the first quarter and eight in the fourth. He was interested in joining the Hawks last summer. Think their bench and locker room would benefit from a pro like him?
– Salmons has really made a difference for the Bucks. Because he went for 32 points they still had a chance to win with Brandon Jennings scoring just three points. But Salmons couldn’t stop Iso-Joe in the end.
– Question: How do you make Iso-Joe develop even slower? Answer: Stop the clock and have shook game officials who don’t notice for at least five seconds.
– “I’m watching the clock tick down so I can see when to go and it just stopped,” J.J. said. “I was thinking it would start back, but it didn’t. It was frustrating, but it happens.”
– Yet another complete game from Smoove: 22 points, 15 rebounds, six assists. Take away those times he thought he was a point guard (five of the team’s 12 turnovers) and he was nearly perfect. “I’m letting the game come to me,” he said. “I’m playing well for the team. I’m not rushing anything. When the opportunity presents itself, I’m seizing it.”
– Woody played Zaza and Mo 14 minutes each, Teague seven minutes and Joe Smith six. It wasn’t always pretty but the bench crew pretty much kept the Hawks in the game during their stints.
– The Hawks play at the Bulls Monday night. “It’s going to be hard playing a back-to-back against a good team but we should feel good about ourselves,” Zaza said.
– I’m out, Hawks fans.
MC
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117 comments Add your comment
Grandad
March 1st, 2010
12:38 am
Michael Cunningham:
When you get a chance, would you ask Wdsn what exactly is his offensive
philosohy? I would be curious as to how he would answer the question.
Thanks. Good night all.
Grandad
March 1st, 2010
12:47 am
Dang, there I was 1st and I couldn’t handle the pressure.
@ least one misspelled word and one goofy paragraph typo
something-or-other. If Wdsn were to read the question,
he will just say, I’ll answer the D___ question when that
‘bleeping’ blogger graduates from Jr. High. Oh well.
bigboi
March 1st, 2010
1:04 am
Wow!!!!First?
Hawks Fan In New Orleans
March 1st, 2010
1:11 am
I don’t feel bad about any win. The Bucks had won six straight and were on a high beating the Celtics – great way to put a hot middling in its place…I really look forward to Jamal kicking it in gear against the Bulls tonight-long overdue for a big game.
Scoop
March 1st, 2010
1:13 am
Another lackluster performance by Marvin, Couple that with more trouble against the pick and roll and I think it becomes mandatory to start Mo Evans and bring Marvin off of the bench/start Teague and bring Bibby off of the bench.
Its imperative that we get some quickness on the perimeter, because Bibby is too slow to guard most point guards on the pick and roll, which leaves Joe to guard the pg and what ends up happening is we either switch a big-man onto the guard or Joe gets caught in the pick and the guard is able to penetrate into the lane. We need Mo/Teagues quickness for more minutes in the game to help defensively with the pick and roll. Plus, if Marvin comes off the bench he can get more touches and be the focus of the offense for the 2nd unit to help get his confidence up. He truly looks lost out there, when he gets a rebound he looks to pass the ball to a guard or even SMOOVE instead of looking to push it himself. Another thing to note is he struggles on help defense. If he’s switched into the post he is too late on helping if the defense is penetrated. He should also look to attack more on offense with his touches, if Joe is doubled and swings it to Marvin he usually takes the jumper but he’d probably be more effective driving with his athleticism.
Hawks Fan In New Orleans
March 1st, 2010
1:34 am
Grandad – we already the answer to that one. During preseason he said that his offensive philosophy to let them run ams that good offense is predicated off of good D and rebounding…when all fails, they didn’t execute the strategy or superb in game adjustments.
Grandad
March 1st, 2010
2:31 am
Hawks Fan in N.O.:
Yes sir, you are correct. He ‘lets’ them [Josh, Al, & Teaguer] run.
The rest are too old, or tired to run. Nique always says:
” I wish Josh would outlet to a [1] or a [2] and fill the lane…
if he did that he would have to wait on the ball. Bibby or Joe will not push it. Josh and Al take off and run. Young Mr Teague pushes the ball
for all of 3 min. per.
Perhaps I should have specified half ct. offense to Mr. Cunningham. As the play-offs tend to slow down and turn into a chess match.
*(Wdsn prefers checkers)
tjhook
March 1st, 2010
2:32 am
I hate Woodson’s offensive strategic ineptitude. And Mo should replace Marvin in the starting lineup – would we really miss the “Duck’s” prescence?
Ken Strickland
March 1st, 2010
3:21 am
MCUNNINGHAM-in tight gms down the stretch, we see Woodson grab his chalkboard and pretend he’s drawing up a play. Yet, when we take the court, all we see is JJ take the ball and go ISO. We’ve been doing this crap for the last 2-3yrs now, and you’d think Woodson would realize he’s not fooling anyone. Everyone knows what’s coming, since Woodson doesn’t have anything else to offer.
It’s truely sad when over the last 20 or so gms, our PF has become better at running the OFF and fastbreak as well as penetrate better than our starting PG. I won’t mention DEF and scoring. I’ve never seen a HC so in love with a particular player(Bibby)that he’ll completely ignore the obvious fact that he’s regressed so to the point of becoming a total detriment to the team.
What makes it worse is there’s a potential solution to the problem sitting on the bench(Teague), and Woodson stubbornly and inexcusably refuses to even give the potential solution the slightest chance to prove himself. I know we still have these dilusional fans who steadfastly claim Teague’s not ready. However, the way Bibby is embarrassing himself and hurting the team, it appears he’s the one that’s neither READY, WILLING OR ABLE.
If given simular mins as Bibby, there’s no way Teague could be as offensively inept as he’s been over the last 20+gms, and he’d certainly provide the DEF Bibby’s failed to provide during his entire tenure here. If, as some seem to think, Woodson’s irratic coaching is the result of him trying to win as many gms as possible down the stretch, you’d think he’d have enough sense to realize that over the last 33gms, his team has been treading water at a 500 clip, which has coinsides with Bibby’s rapid decline. STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES.
Live From the Westside of Macon (artist formerly known as Mac-Town'z Finest 478)
March 1st, 2010
3:51 am
It’s obvious that Bibby fluffs Woodson’s pillow at night and Marvin shines his baldy for him (take that any way you want). That’s the only reason I can think of as to why Woodson is so in love with this non-productive wastes.
o.O-Mac-Town -Macon, Georgia- Westsider-O.o
March 1st, 2010
3:57 am
Mike Woodson thinks a “coaching adjustment” is changing to a different color dry-erase marker for his lil board.
FIRE WOODSON.
Jesse
March 1st, 2010
7:10 am
Maybe the reason the stink in the 4th quarter is because they are exhausted from playing so many minutes…. Woodson needs to play his bench a bit more so the starters are only play in the high 30s in minutes, not 40s
dap01
March 1st, 2010
7:43 am
During one of the last possessions by the Bucks, there was 7 passes and no dribbles during a play (in the last minute).
The Hawks did not make 7 passes in the forth quarter. Joe goes ISO, he is tired, so he merely dribbles and throws up a fadeaway from 25 feet.
Does Sund watch the games?
dap01
March 1st, 2010
7:52 am
Why don’t anyone ask Woody why he plays the starters such long minutes on the first night of a back to back?
terrell
March 1st, 2010
7:55 am
Why does Dominique continue to say, “we need to put these guys away early”? The Hawks haven’t put a team away early in 6 freakin years.
O'Brien
March 1st, 2010
7:56 am
Another fourth quarter with 19 points or less. That makes 11 of them this season, and our record is 2-9 in those games. One thing about Woody. He will win or lose with iso JJs no matter who, no matter what, no matter when, no matter where.
Bibby did not give us anything last night, but he had 2 good games before last night’s game, so I’m looking forward to seeing what he is able to give us later. And he is the only starter who should be fresh, so hopefully he is making his shots. Although I think Derrick Rose will have a HUGE game later.
If Crawford keeps struggling like this, he might lose his grip on the SMOY trophy. Hawks need him to get it going, because that will give Woody more iso options, and JJ wont have to carry the load all by himself.
@ Wabe
“Something that I noted that I liked in this first half was seeing JT0 get minutes with Crawford at the 2 and JJ at the 3″.
I disagree. With those guys in the game, more often that not all Teague would do is bring the ball up the court, and then hand off to JJ or Crawford, and then get out of the way.
Since the Hawks are playing a back to back on the road tonight, it would have been nice to see Woody give the bench more minutes. It was an ugly win, but a win is a win. If we finish with the 3rd seed, we could play Chicago in the first round, so this could be a playoff preview. Our starters are tired, so I hope our bench gives us quality minutes tonight. Beat them Bulls.
JeJe
March 1st, 2010
7:57 am
We really really really should have signed Stackhouse. If we could’ve done that then traded Mo Evans for a 3rd PG, we’d be set. STackhouse can score the ball, has some size, and is a vet. Teague/Craw/Stack/Joe.S/ZaZa is a lot more powerful than having Mo out there
JeJe
March 1st, 2010
7:58 am
Read the post-game story. Smoove said we need to share the ball more…
JeJe
March 1st, 2010
8:13 am
LOL WOODSON USES A 6.5 MAN ROTATION NOW AND SAID IT WILL DECREASE COME PLAYOFF TIME, BUT JOE SMITH AND COLLINS SHOULD LOOK OUT FOR MINUTES.
THAT IS OUR HEAD COACH
Joe
March 1st, 2010
8:22 am
Why did the Hawks pass on Stackhouse last fall when he practiced with local pros including several Hawks and comments were made by those players that Stackhouse showed big with his A game and we certainly had a roster spot open for another 6- 6 big guard/forward who could play the 2 or 3 positions? His price would have been inthe Hawks budget I think,he was living in Atlanta, and appeared to recover from his injuries of last season. Now he is one of the reasons the Bucks are improving while the Hawks reserves are struggling with their shots.
JeJe
March 1st, 2010
8:23 am
Horford got bigger this past summer, but his post game still is not good enough. He doesn’t take high quality shots. And Smoove is always out of control driving the lane. You just cover your eyes, hoping it’ll go in
Calvin's Barber Shop
March 1st, 2010
8:54 am
Can we please take up a collection and buy Josh Smith a real nickname. Smoove? What’s that supposed to mean anyway? Better than Snookums, I guess, but not worthy of a player who is becoming a great one.
Coach D
March 1st, 2010
8:54 am
Where the hell are all the fans???? Phillips was maybe half full. I got to the game, which is a rare occasion, but an early evening Sunday game should be packed out! There was no fan influence until the end of the 4th quarter…
The Atlanta Spirit/Phillips group is not helping the fans want to return when they have the ushers stand “guard” at the top of the bottom level isles to prevent true fans to be able to move down closer to the court. GET A CLUE ASG!!!!!!!! Does the ASG think these fans who don’t have much discretionary income, will come back when they are not allowed to get closer to the court. This leaves a real bad taste in my mouth. Cater to the customer & fire Woodson and there may be more fans.
doc
March 1st, 2010
8:56 am
yeah MC, i asked the question on your last blog why mario and put up stackhouse’s numbers? those are the things about this management team that drives me crazy. problem is he would only get 5 minutes of play time instead of compete to make marvin better. he begged to play here. he is probably why the bucks have been so improved over the last month or so since he arrived. i dont think it is mere coincidence.
jj looked absolutely terrible on the last shot of the game. i would rather josh have it in his hand if jj is going to do absolutely nothing with it for 17 seconds of the 19 seconds we had it to draw a fould or contact. a fall away 18 footer is not the shot i want him to take..
Astro Joe
March 1st, 2010
9:10 am
Too bad that ugly wins don’t count the same as beautiful wins in the NBA.
@MC, so it appears that Sund’s shopping list is fairly limited, only a few vets have been bought-out (unless there is some last minute negotiating going on today in places like NJ). I assume that Sund will wait indefinitely for Z, right?
JeJe
March 1st, 2010
9:15 am
Why not just give Craw the last shot? he can easily get in the lane
doc
March 1st, 2010
9:28 am
coach d, sit where you buy your tix are is how it works. no one likes to return to a seat to have it occupied by someone not supposed to be there. too often freeloaders try to do just that. the hawks have plenty of promotions to get folks in at a bargain rate. season tix are a bargain if you sell them or get as a group. yes fans need to be there but in their own seats. those that are regulars dont need to fight for their seats. the folks at those aisles are very pleasant and have to put up with a lot of guff and rudeness by those thinking they are entitled to a seat they didnt pay for. hope you didnt take it out on them as they dot get paid a lot to put up with miscreants.
JM
March 1st, 2010
9:47 am
Did anyone notice the Hawks assitance coach say they loved Stackhouse and tried to get him here? if that’s the case, what stop them? MC any ideas?
O'Brien
March 1st, 2010
9:49 am
doc,
If Stackhouse was here, he would get limited PT, and when he did, he would probably not give us much, or be inconsistent like Joe Smith. Thats the kind of luck the Hawks have.
This offseason, Matt Barnes was available too, and everybody knew the Hawks needed a backup SF. But Rick Sund did not give Woody much of an option at that position. As for Marvin, he is not concerned about losing his spot, so hopefully somebody can light a fire and help him get it going.
AJ,
I havent heard any names out there that jump out at me either, so I think the Hawks will stick with the players they have. But there is room for improvement from within.
JeJe
March 1st, 2010
9:49 am
doc,
I see how teams like the Nets, who had a game where it started snowing in the middle, ANNOUNCED on the loud-speaker or intercom, whatever, that fans could move down since there were empty seats.
Why are the “premium” seats opposite the benches always empty? Why does it never sell out unless a superstar is in town?
Oh, I know why — Atlanta is a pathetic sports city
terrell
March 1st, 2010
10:04 am
Obrien, its called being STUBBORN.
terrell
March 1st, 2010
10:07 am
Obrien, can we even get the 3rd seed? I thought it was the division winners, and then 4-8? Did they change it?
terrell
March 1st, 2010
10:08 am
I’m thinking we gotta win the southeast to get the 2 or 3 seed, and I dont see that happening.
Mike is Back
March 1st, 2010
10:11 am
I have been out of loop since Thursday because of internet problems. I didn’t get a chance to see the Bucks game…however based on responses…I see it is the same ooooooooooooold thing and the same oooooooooooold Woody. They may not be world-beaters…but you got help on the bench. Perhaps doing the unthinkable like shaking up the starting line could bear some fruit…but what do we know…we are just bloggers. lol
Not only is ISO JJ old…that lame line up with Crawford and Bibby in the game at the end is old…you are putting two of your weakest defender on the floor at the same time. CMON MAN. Will there be some second half adjustments, or is this it???????
terrell
March 1st, 2010
10:14 am
Stackhouse chose Milwaukee, Wisconsin over the ATL? Didn’t want no part of Woody. Thats the only reason I can think of why he’d do such a thing.
terrell
March 1st, 2010
10:16 am
Hey Woody, start Bibby/Mo/JJ/Josh/Horf tonight. Thanks. Terrell
doc
March 1st, 2010
10:23 am
terrell he wasnt offered a job maybe here?
o’b agree and said just that above.
JM
March 1st, 2010
10:30 am
doc
if the coaching staff said they wanted him and tried to get him, why do you (or anyone) think Sund didn’t make the move?
fudd21
March 1st, 2010
10:32 am
Terrell, we can get the 3rd seed without winning the division.
doc
March 1st, 2010
10:41 am
jm, money?
GeeMack
March 1st, 2010
11:00 am
Another win for the Hawks, but it was very disappointing to see the effort they put forth.
I’m not sure what’s wrong, but something clearly needs fixing.
We were leading in the 4th against OKC, PHX, GS, & Dallas, and all four were loses. We needed OT to beak the BUCKS at home!
The Hawks should be on a 8 game win streak, but we’re 4-4 in that same stretch. We keep missing opportunities to catch both Orlando & Boston by playing lackluster ball in the 4th.
Marcus
March 1st, 2010
11:00 am
Whats irksome is that we could be, arguably, on a min. of a 5 game W streak ( big rolleyes for double-digit, come-from-AHEAD losses to Golden State and DAL) and at best a 7-game W streak coming out of the All-Star break (ATL starters get run by PHX bench in 4Q, nothwithstanding). Everything else in the NBA standings being the same, those 3 winnable games are the difference between being mere percentage points ahead of BOS for 3rd in the East and being tied w/ORL for the Southeast Div and 2nd in the East.
This was supposed to be the easy stretch before hitting the road vs. our tough march through March. Nothing has been easy, and we have to figure out the 4Q swoon and also get a strategy for that 2-3 zone. Best believe other teams peeped was DAL did to whittle down a 13-point lead in the last 5 mins to force OT.
thomas22
March 1st, 2010
11:01 am
Sure wish you guys wouldn’t waste your time with posts talking about players we could have signed/got! It’s too late (no trades allowed guys…..)- we have to focus on what we have so save yourselves some typing.
The Hawks just need to try to work inside out and pass the ball around more. That one pass and a shot philosophy is old. Teams have scouted us and they know that rarely we look inside and will take a long jumper instead, especially when we go iso Joe.
I didn’t use to think Coach W was really the problem, but watch the chemistry of the team during timeouts when he’s drawing up a play and they are basically not even paying attention. Has he lost control of the locker room?
I do believe that we could replace Marvin in the starting line up with someone and allow him to come off the bench. He may play better as well. Teague is showing signs of confidence now-I would think that he would get better as he gets more playing time. I like Bibby, but it’s evident he’s lost a step-most other PG’s are much younger and blow by him.
Daniel
March 1st, 2010
11:21 am
I don’t know how to look at these last few games. Yes, tough wins and tough losses. Both Dallas and the Bucks have been HOT. So could be an opponents issue. However, I really think that Crawford’s play is the key to our 4th quarter/inability to put a team away issues. I know the shoulder keeps getting down played and maybe he is starting to come out of it, but that is my area of concern here.
MC, I have a question for you. What does Zydrunis gain by continuing to talk about other teams at this point? If he is going back to Clevland they can’t offer him any more money than he already is being offered. Is he really that upset about being traded? Is this posturing for some front office kick back type stuff? Or is he serious about going to another team? I am confused by the whole thing.
JM
March 1st, 2010
11:22 am
thomas, you miss the point. insight it to some of our recent moves or lack thereof can help you forcast what we may do with future moves. or you can read more into it and say that Sund is building his team irregardless of what the current coaching staff wants or wanted.
JM
March 1st, 2010
11:26 am
* regardless
jlewis
March 1st, 2010
11:31 am
Mike is Back, you hit it right on the head, Bibby and Crawford in the game at the same time is a big problem and is hurting this team down the stretch. Mr. Cunningham, you ran off 5 plays in ISO in the 4th quarter, who took the other shots? You said Smoove had no shots in 11 minutes, you really want him shooting or getting it on put backs or shots off the break? You always mention the the ISO, lets hear about why your 4 time all star shooting guard has to always guard the point guard or the toughest player. You also mention Josh’s numbers, but on man to man defense, Josh is horrible, the problems with this team are not ISO’s, its defense.
I would also like to know have you mentioned JJ wearing knee pads the last few games, are his knees bothering him? Do some real reporting and stop just mentioning offense, we can score with anymore, the problem is defense. Tell us why Stack wasnt signed and how much can the Hawks pay Z.
Melvin
March 1st, 2010
11:40 am
Terrell.
Jim Todd lied about the Hawks wanting to sign Stack during that interview after the 1st qtr. It was well document that Stack wanted to play for the Hawks. Heck, we could have eliminated Cheeseburger Collins and Mario slot to sign Stack if it was about the money which I think it was b/c they chose to sign Mario during the season (pro-rated salary) versus paying him the 1 mil, had they chose to sign him in the offseason. So I am not sure where the blame lies (Mgmt, GM, Coach) for not signing Stack.
O'Brien
March 1st, 2010
11:46 am
terrell,
Stackhouse said he believed he would be a good fit in ATL. But he never got an offer from us. Why? I don’t know. And then Michael Redd went down for the Bucks, so they called him, he accepted. That was a better spot for Stackhouse anyway, because with Redd’s injury, he would get more PT there.
As for the seeding, they changed the rules. Even if the Hawks dont win the division, they can still be a #3 seed if they have a better record than Boston.
Daniel,
I think Crawford’s slump is part of the reason why we’re struggling to score in the fourth. I think he was one of the top scorers in terms of points scored in the 4th. I hope he gets out of his slump soon, because with Bibby struggling, and Marvin being Marvin, we need Crawford.
However, even if we take out the Miami game before the all star break (which is the game Crawford missed), and the subsequent games after the break where he is struggling, there are still 8 other games where the Hawks scored 17 points or less in the 4th quarter.
I havent looked at the numbers to see what happened in those games, but to me, the Hawks always have the potential to struggle in the fourth when isos aint working, and jump shots aint falling.
I look for Crawford to get out of his slump tonight in Chicago. Come on Jamal, the Hawks need you to prove me right
DecDawg
March 1st, 2010
11:50 am
Can we stop with the “JJ guards the toughest player on the other team BS”? He does not guard Carmelo, Lebron, Pierce, Rose, Durant, Jason Terry, Deron Williams, Chris Paul…etc. And please do not mention either of the guards from Golden State, Steve Nash, Kelvin Martin or any other guards that go off against us every time.
I know it sounds good to say it but it’s just not true. Now he may end up guarding them on a switch or from time to time but so does every one else on the Hawks because of the constant switching on D.
niremetal
March 1st, 2010
11:55 am
Melvin,
First off, I think the Hawks made a mistake signing Rio instead of Stack, assuming Stack was interested. From the team’s perspective, the decision couldn’t have been about the money because Rio and Stack cost the team exactly the same out-of-pocket since the league reimburses teams that sign vets to minimum contracts. I think Stack would have been a better 10th/11th man than Rio.
But second, why is it a lie for Todd to say the Hawks wanted him? “Well documented?” You mean Stack said it twice, therefore it must be true? Did you ever notice what O’Brien indicated here and on the other blog – that Redd’s season-ending injury guaranteed Stack MUCH more PT in Milwaukee than he could ever hope to get here, where he would be the 5th wing in a 3.5 wing rotation? Stack would have had to resign himself to a good number of DNP-CDs and garbage time minutes if he came here. So calling Jim Todd a liar is just your way of complaining, once again, about the Hawks not signing a player that YOU think they should have signed while ignoring the possible reasons that player may have logically preferred another team to ours.
As I said, I would rather have Stack than Rio, and if the Hawks had the chance to sign Stack but chose Rio instead, they did wrong (and since Stack was still a FA when we released Othello, that’s quite possibly how it went down). But stop acting like you know what happened. “Liar” is too strong a word to use by someone who has no idea what the hell happened.
Michael Cunningham
March 1st, 2010
11:57 am
@granddad: as others have noted, Woody believes good defense and rebounding leads to points in transition. as far as halfcourt, in defense of Iso, he has said that the goal of any play is to get the ball in his best players’ hands in good position to score so why run a bunch of screens when J.J. and Jamal can get their own shot? so that’s his philosophy as far as i can tell.
@ Astro re: buyouts . . . yeah, looks like still not much in the buyout bin. Hawks might have been interested in D. Gooden but he’s staying with Clips. so Sund will wait on Z.
@everyone asking about Stack: i wasn’t here when all that went down but from what i hear Hawks basically thought J Smith would be a better fit than Stack on and off the court. Stack was interested but the Hawks never reached out. again, i wasn’t here, but that’s how i hear it played out.
@ daniel re: Z . . . who knows what he stands to gain by waiting. the league’s not going to do anything anyway so not sure why the agent would still be trying to give the illusion there was no prearranged deal. his agent hinted that he was upset about the trade. or maybe Big Z really is thinking about it. all of this uncertainty is why i can’t ignore the story. unless you know Z and talk to him it’s hard to figure what’s going on. heck, Joe Smith knows him and talked to him and he still doesn’t know what’s going on, said Z is still kind of shocked by the trade.
@jlewis: dude, simma down. i have answered pretty much every single question you just asked in previous posts (except for J.J.’s kneepads). so stop trying to punk me and improve your reading comprehension. matter of fact, i just did a story and a blog on the defense and rebounding problems yesterday. but i guess when Hawks shoot 5 for 18 in the fourth and hold the Bucks to 6 for 17 i should focus on defense again. i keep track of Iso-Joe because that was the big controversy when i started (and still is if you watched the game last night), so i wanted to actually try and track it instead of just making assumptions based on perception (like you do). more than once i’ve gone over the reasons i don’t track everything else so, again, pay attention.
as for J.J.’s kneepads: he gets ice on the knees after most games. whenever i ask him about it, he says it’s just the wear and tear of the season. it’s not uncommon to see around the league this time of year.
Lacsho
March 1st, 2010
11:59 am
Daniel- The Hawks have an Offense issue. Every game they go scoreless for 7-12 minutes. Woodrow needs to call a timeout or sit someone down during this stretch. Furthermore, during this stretch the big’s get limited touches. Commonsense tells a player to get it inside after missing jump shots for 7-12 consecutive minutes.
Melvin
March 1st, 2010
12:04 pm
Astro,
Mark Blount or Franciso Elson would be the bigs I would go after if Tony Battie doesnt get bought out. And I would sign Larry Hughes with the 15th spot….
Clyde
March 1st, 2010
12:10 pm
One of the biggest mistakes Sund made in the offseason was not resigning Flip Murray.
FIRE WOODY
GeeMack
March 1st, 2010
12:13 pm
Daniel
I think Crawford shoulder is a bigger concern than he leads on.
However I think Josh’s increased play over the last 8 games has made it less noticeable, but it is a big issue with playoffs approaching.
I also think there needs to be a shake up the starting line up. Defensively the Hawks are getting killed on the pick & roll with quick hitting point guards.
I love what Bibby brought to the team 2 seasons ago, but his productivity has dropped drastically this season. I’m not sure if it’s the ankle or what, but he is nowhere near the same player he was last year.
What you think?
thomas22
March 1st, 2010
12:15 pm
Lasacho-Great post! Maybe someone from the Hawks will see it and consider doing it….
If you notice last night in OT when we went inside, JJ hit a nice jumper from about 8 ft because the defense had to react because we attacked the basket before shooting the jumper.
GeeMack
March 1st, 2010
12:22 pm
O’Brien
You’re correct 4th quarter scoring has been a problem for a while, but how do we fix it.
These long droughts without a FG is getting old, however I thing a line up change may inject life into this team in the fourth quarter.
Lacsho
March 1st, 2010
12:25 pm
Thomas22-
Milwaukee’s coach didn’t hesitate to insert the bench after the starting squad was struggling. Woodrow needs to do the same. Our starters are two comfortable b/c they know Woodrow would never bench them.
STRETCH
March 1st, 2010
12:31 pm
Thomas22 and Lasacho,
You both had great points. And as you can see thats why they lost the last 4 games against OKC, Dallas, PHX and GS. Elite teams will withstand another teams runs with a star player making a play or even a role player making one. Also, the Head coach has be able to use his starters effeciently and recognize when to call TO and get the guys together and re-group…somethin Woody refuses to do.
PHX and OKC, those games were dog fights from the begining, but there is absolutely NO excuse for the Dallas and GS losses. This season is like having a terminal illness…its just only a matter of time before the ultimate happens. 2ND ROUND AND OUT.
Hopefully looking forward to next season, some things to hope for:
1. new coach with a clue
2. Josh Smith matures
3. a PG with speed and a shot
4. Marvin gets the ax
5. GET A BIG MAN!
Traceman
March 1st, 2010
12:31 pm
Daniel/O’Brien,
No doubt Crawford’s struggles are a HUGE reason we are struggling in the 4th quarter. For a significant stretch of the season, the:
Bibby
Crawford
JJ
Smoove
Horford
lineup has successfully closed out games because Jamal has been so deadly in the 4th. The D was not great but it didn’t matter because Jamal was so dang good. However, now that he is struggling to score, the defensive liability of having him and Bibby on the floor to close out the 4th is being exploited.
Jamal is shooting 31% overall and 26% from the 3 pt line since the All Star break while Bibby is shooting 33% and 28% respectively. You simply can’t win consistently when you are a perimeter-oriented team and your backcourt is that bad.
Last night, Woody decided to go with Marvin down the stretch while sitting Bibby. I honestly didn’t care who sat last night between Jamal and Bibby because they were both struggling but if he had stuck with both of them playing down the stretch, I think we would have lost.
Marvin was by no means great yesterday (hard to be great when you only get 5 shot attempts) but he had a solid game and he contributed a lot of things that didn’t show up in the boxscore. The team defense in the 4th quarter and OT was a LOT better with him on the floor.
Bottom line is that if Crawford and Bibby are scoring, I have no problem with Woody staying with them but if they are clearly off (as they have been since the All Star break), he needs to go with Marvin for defensive purposes in the 4th and at least make it tough for the other team to score.
PS – I also liked the fact that Woody went offense/defense down the stretch in OT with Jamal and Mo. Jamal let Ridnour go right around him for a layup before that move but after that, MIL got no more layups or uncontested shots. He needs to do that more often. Mo did a good job defensively on J Kidd in the 3rd quarter of the DAL game. I wish Woody had come back to him late in the 4th because nobody else on our team seemed to be able to stop him.
Daniel
March 1st, 2010
12:38 pm
Alright, MC, then take off your reporter hat for a minute (this being the blog portion) what is your gut telling you about Z? I know it is not based on any inside knowledge, I would be curious to hear what you think. From the outside looking in, last week just seemed like the “going through the motions”-type stuff until he resigned with Clevland, but now it just seems well….odd. Thought?
jlewis
March 1st, 2010
12:39 pm
Cunningham:
No need for me to simmer down, I’m not upset. If it’s my ability to comprehend, I have no problem in that area. I pay attention that you pay attention to what you want to.
Traceman
March 1st, 2010
12:40 pm
DecDawg,
If you don’t think that JJ spends a SIGNIFICANT amount of time guarding the other team’s best perimeter player (and he has done that since he got here), then I have no idea what you have been watching.
Yes, our defensive philosophy involves a lot of switches on screens but the guys are still responsible for guarding a specific player on each possession. In addition, in JJ’s case, he actually fights around the screen more than any other player on the team.
O'Brien
March 1st, 2010
12:40 pm
Thanks for the responses MC,
I share the opinion that if we had to choose between Joe Smith and Stackhouse, Joe Smith is the better fit. However, the question is why not Stackhouse instead of Othello Hunter?
@ Traceman,
Good points.
@ GeeMack,
I wouldnt mind seeing a lineup change either. However, you would be hard pressed to find a coach who will change their lineup with only 20 something games left. Also, the team is still #3 in the East, so any coach would not want to make a drastic change this late. And thats understandable.
@ Lascho,
Woody will get on his players during a timeout sometimes. But overall, when our starters do something wrong, all Woody does is stand there and glare at them. When they’re struggling, he just waits for them to stop struggling.
We talked about the players not listening to him when he preaches defense and rebounding, so maybe they are tuning him out on offense sometimes too.
jlewis
March 1st, 2010
12:42 pm
Oh, sorry, you didnt answer all my questions because you didnt address the Smoove and shots question I posed to you. I want your opinion on how do we get Josh “shots” so the Hawks don’t go 11 minutes without him touching it, do we go ISOJOSH?
Melvin
March 1st, 2010
12:46 pm
Nire,
Look like MC beat me to it. First, notice MC said the Hawks reach out to Stack (conflicting to what Todd said). Secondly, Hawks had a chance to sign Stack in the offseason and during the season prior to Redd getting hurt. Third, Stack said publicly he wanted to play for the Hawks so spectulating about playing is irrelevent. And who’s to say Stack would have been on the bench had he proving himself to effective on the court?
Daniel
March 1st, 2010
12:46 pm
Gee- I really like Traceman’s breakdown of the 4th quarter situation. I don’t know how shuffling the starting line-up really affects anything unless the coach is just trying to send a message, what matters is who is playing down the stretch. Bibby is clearly having a down year, his minutes are also down, but I would still give Crawford and him minutes in the 4th to see how the shot is falling. Bibby played great against Dallas. I know Kidd ate up everybody, but I thought Bibby actually handled their pick and roll better than Josh or Al or Joe, who were the ones who kept getting caught out of position. Ultimately, how does a coach affect a veteran’s stroke? I mean they either got it or they don’t, and we all have to hope that both Bibby and Jamal get back down the stretch. I do like have Marvin on the floor for defense when Jamal is not shooting well, but that is tough too, because for a guy like Jamal his next hot streak is only one shot away.
The issue that I think should be addressed at this point in the season is the decrease in our team defense. The guys keep getting caught out of position, there is not a lot of help(except Josh), just not seeing the whole “taking responsibility” for each other that we were earlier in the season. That’s what needs to be addressed for me. The 4th quarter scoring? Either Jamal and/or Bibby’s shot gets healthy or we will be in trouble down the stretch.
ligf
March 1st, 2010
12:48 pm
woodson = fired coach walking
Daniel
March 1st, 2010
12:50 pm
Melvin- going back to Stack, I don’t think it was about money, because were he to have signed for the vet min, like Joe Smith, the league pays most if not all that salary.
Daniel
March 1st, 2010
12:52 pm
I think the Hawks (Sund? Woodson?) had an issue with his personality. I think they didn’t think he would fit in well with the team and be willing to be 3rd behind Crawford and Evans off the bench. Just a guess on my part.
Ken Strickland
March 1st, 2010
12:55 pm
JM-I also caught that comment, and it supports a contention that I’d made before, and got jumped on for mentioning it. WOODY LOVERS didn’t like hearing me say that Woodson’s irrational and inconsistent use, misuse and/or underutilization of his bench, especially his veteran players, might come back to bite us. It just might be a matter of Stackhouse wanting to come here until he got an offer from a team with a HC that has enough intelligence, guts and appreciate for the value of having and utilizing his bench.
Joe Smith refused to resign with Cleveland because of the way they refused to utilize him just prior to and during the playoffs. Then he comes here and gets all but ignored during the entire regular season, while hearing public comments from Woodson about how he’ll be utilized more during the playoffs. Our fool of a HC then said he hoped they understood the situation, even although he admitted he hadn’t mentioned anything to that effect to any of them.
Daniel
March 1st, 2010
12:57 pm
Also, Stack sat out most of the season, so it wasn’t just the Hawks who passed on him, every team did. So it makes you wonder if he wasn’t asking for something more(i.e. role) during the off season that scared off most teams. He got humbled and took the Bucks offer. You would have to say the Bucks have made some nice moves with the addition of Salmons and Stackhouse, but having low expectations tends to overinflate results. They still lost.
J
March 1st, 2010
12:58 pm
I’m with Doc on this one .. Coach D, it isn’t fair for the people who paid more to have fans from the upper levels come down and sit next to them. The Ushers are doing their jobs, as they are instructed to do, which is to make sure people are sitting in the right place. I had somebody sitting in my seats a few nights ago, b/c i have aisle seats and got there a bit late, and i was not happy at all. The people then looked at me as if i was the person in the wrong.
And there are really good specials out there for people to sit closer. Sunday Night was a Kids Night, which meant half-off seating to those that had kids with them. If you are a coach, you should have done your scouting on the front end about ticket pricing before complaining and blaming the Hawks for you not getting better seats (or trying to sit in seats that you didn’t purchase). There are a few secrets to getting better deals, make sure you do your homework!
J
March 1st, 2010
1:00 pm
Oh, and Woodson needs to go!!! I get tired of hearing everyone use iso-joe but its the only “play” he runs come crunch time. Then again, Joe is our main go-to guy, similar to Kobe/D-Wade/Lebron getting the ball in crunch time.
Astro Joe
March 1st, 2010
1:09 pm
Melvin, I’d take Mark Blount but not Larry Hughes (sub-40% shooter)… I also doubt that Sund will sign a 15th player. Blount is a lousy rebounder but he would at least give us a center who can draw opposing centers wawy from the paint.
niremetal
March 1st, 2010
1:19 pm
Melvin,
Nire,
Hawks had a chance to sign Stack in the offseason and during the season prior to Redd getting hurt.
Yes. And they took Joe Smith instead. Considering that everyone was clamoring for us to sign a big, I don’t see what your point is there. My point was about why we didn’t sign him in Jan/Feb, not in the offseason. MC’s post didn’t address that time period.
Third, Stack said publicly he wanted to play for the Hawks so spectulating about playing is irrelevent.
Funny. Jim Todd said the Hawks wanted him and you called him a liar. Stack says he wanted to be here, and you assume he was telling the truth. Confirmation bias ftw! Gee, it’s not like players ever feign interest in playing for certain teams in order to drive up their market price.
Also, maybe Stack was interested in playing for the Hawks, but decided that since he’d almost certainly get more PT in Milwaukee, he would be even more interested in playing there. Nahhhh…that wouldn’t jive with your preconceived notion that every player in the universe that you like wants to play for the Hawks, and the only reason the Hawks don’t sign them is because the Hawks are cheap/stupid/etc. Confirmation bias ftw!
And who’s to say Stack would have been on the bench had he proving himself to effective on the court?
Uh…because Woody’s rotations don’t seem to correlate with who does well on the court.
DecDawg
March 1st, 2010
1:31 pm
Traceman…By the way other teams best perimeter players have been posting big numbers on us (since he got here), your theory that he’s the defensive man guarding them makes him look worse. None of the guys I mentioned have trouble scoring against JJ. And if not for Josh hanging around in the paint, their numbers would be even better.
But I have to admit that you did not say he was acting as a defensive stopper…you just said he was the one guarding them. And for the record, Marvin draws the toughest matchups on a regular basis.
niremetal
March 1st, 2010
1:32 pm
On that note, MC – any insight into why the Hawks signed Mario instead of Stack in January? According to my Google searches, we waived Othello on Jan 5 and signed Rio on Jan 12; Stack didn’t sign with the Bucks until Jan 18. You showed up at the AJC right in the middle off all that jazz, so I know you were still probably trying to get your bearings, but do you have any idea how the Hawks decided to go after Rio instead of Stack (or instead of keeping Hunter, for that matter)?
JeJe
March 1st, 2010
1:41 pm
Hawks game last night was painful to watch. I almost wish we had lost.
Our starters’ legs are dead.
Woodson doesn’t use the bench
We are playing 3 on 5 with Bibby and Marvin starting
Woody won’t adjust rotation
Season is over
JeJe
March 1st, 2010
1:46 pm
SIGN MICHAEL FINLEY
WE SHOULD’VE HAD STACKHOUSE.
DO NOT LET HIM GO TO BOSTON OR CLEVELAND
Lacsho
March 1st, 2010
1:47 pm
O’BRIEN- this statement was on point: Woody will get on his players during a timeout sometimes. But overall, when our starters do something wrong, all Woody does is stand there and glare at them. When they’re struggling, he just waits for them to stop struggling.
We talked about the players not listening to him when he preaches defense and rebounding, so maybe they are tuning him out on offense sometimes too.
As a coach everyone should be fair game when it comes Criticism
Melvin
March 1st, 2010
1:53 pm
Nire,
Did you missed this statememnt by MC “Stack was interested but the Hawks never reached out”. Hawks had no intention of signing the guy. So timeframe has nothing to do with him signing with the Bucks.
terrell
March 1st, 2010
1:57 pm
Doc, one of the assistant Coaches said last night that we tried to get Stack to come here.
Fresh
March 1st, 2010
1:59 pm
Question?
With Shaq missing the rest of the season…do the Hawks really need to go out of the way to sign Big Z?
Melvin
March 1st, 2010
2:00 pm
Nire,
One more thing. I said since the begining of the season that I felt the Hawks needed another wing player. Preferably someone who could play SF. So If Todd said they wanted to bring in Stack that I guess they see a need for another wing player as well…. Bring on Larry Hughes…
Melvin
March 1st, 2010
2:01 pm
*If Todd said they wanted to bring in Stack, I guess they see a need for another wing player as well.
terrell
March 1st, 2010
2:06 pm
Joe Smith over Stack? Wow! How bout Joe Smith AND Stack? Cheapos!
Daniel
March 1st, 2010
2:06 pm
Fresh- Absolutely, if for no other reason than keeping him away from the Cavs would hurt them. But, he would clearly give our bench an upgrade.
Daniel
March 1st, 2010
2:09 pm
terrell- I am pretty sure that not signing Stack was a money issue. The vet min. is mostly paid by the league, not the team. I think that they had concerns about his attitude and how he would mix in with a young team that was still gaining maturity.
doc
March 1st, 2010
2:09 pm
terrell read stack’s comments, they never reached out to him. hmmmm would he lie or does the assistant really know what the gm does?
geez, they didnt even bring him to camp to compete terrell. many of us were dumbfounded as he had dominated in pick up games here among the hawks.
Daniel
March 1st, 2010
2:12 pm
nire- If you think Stack chose the Bucks over the Hawks because of PT or the coach, then you don’t think very highly of Stackhouse’s decision making ability. The truth is the Hawks (along with every other team) were not that interested. The reasons are clearly not about playing ability but off the court/ locker room issues.
Ree Roe
March 1st, 2010
2:15 pm
In case most of you didn’t know, the Spurs released G/F Michael Finley today. I’m not even gonna get my hopes up & expect the Hawks to use our sizeable midlevel exemption on the veteran guard, but I would at least hope the Hawks prove me wrong and acquire veteran depth we can use.
Maybe it’s just me, but does anybody find it interesting that Big Z hasn’t resigned with CLE yet? Maybe he remembered that they did trade him, did bench him this season & did not allow him to set the Cavs record for games played at home in CLE this season. They made him set the record on the road. Maybe Big Z is starting to realize how he’s been disrespected by the Cavaliers organization numerous times this season & how much of a tool he’d look by resigning with them. Maybe the Hawks really do have a chance to sign him.
Also, I agree with the frustrations about our iso-insert name offense especially late in games. I just wish Al would get more touches in the paint when we go on our 4-7 minute scoring droughts.
-REEscind it for Roe!!!
northcyde
March 1st, 2010
2:16 pm
FACT: At 33.1 minutes a game, the Hawks rank #10 in the league in minutes played by its starters. The teams ahead of them?
1) Memphis
2) Charlotte
3) New York
4) LA Lakers
5) LA Clippers
6) Washington
New Jersey
7) Chicago
9) Boston
Surprised? You shouldn’t be.
The problem that this fan base flat out REFUSES to understand about our bench, is that for the most part . . THEY . . ARE . . SORRY.
So when you play them extended minutes, you don’t help your starters . . you put the team in a further hole on most nights.
The Hawks starting unit ranks #3 in the league. The only 2 teams ahead of us are . . you guessed it . . LA Lakers and Boston.
At 48% FG, the starting unit for the Hawks ranks #7 in shooting. Boston is #1 at almost 51% FG.
The illusion that is created by a team like Boston, is that they play their bench players at the same point . . together. Very few of the bench mixes in with the starting unit. The reason, is because no one on the bench is as good as the starters. Only Rasheed Wallace is apt to see extended minutes off the bench. Maybe Nate Robinson as well, only if Rondo is having a bad game.
When we try to play our bench together, we get thoroughly outplayed on most nights. Why? Because they’re not that good. We could do like some suggest, and “sprinkle in” the bench with the starters. But doing that takes away some of the Hawks most effective 5-man lineups.
Some of you act like we have this fabulous bench that we can just insert in a game, and nothing negative will happen.
With Crawford struggling late, our bench now ranks #26 in the league. The 42.8% FG that the bench shoots, ranks #26 in the league as well.
You DO NOT REDUCE the minutes of Horford and Smoove, to play Zaza and Joe Smith more in games. Especially not when these dudes aren’t giving you much. Some of you still cry for Teague, but he’s shooting . . . . you know what, instead of just singling out Teague, let me post the shooting percentages of our 6 – 10 guys.
Crawford: 44.7%
Zaza: 44%
Evans: 43%
Joe Smith: 39.5%
Teague: 35.4%
Crawford plays in place of Bibby, and is our super sub. The rest of the team simply doesn’t play even at a consistent level on a nightly basis.
If Zaza plays bad, you can’t rest Horford much, because someone has to play center. You can play Teague, and Woody did go with a Teague – Crawford – JJ lineup for a short stretch in the 2nd quarter ( that lineup got outscored 9 – 4 by the way ).
Some of you need to stop acting like we have good bench players on this team. We don’t.
Everytime we lose a game, people go crazy around here. And you see how crazy people went when Woody left Zaza in the Golden St game in the 4th quarter ( that was a blowout at the time ). So what would happen if Teague is on the floor, and a decifit goes from 2 to 10 points? Oh my bad . . that’s already happened . . a few games ago.
It doesn’t matter what Woody does with the lineup, the bench players simply have to be more consistent. If they aren’t consistent, then we have no choice but to play the starters extended minutes. The bench can’t play together as a unit on most nights, so it’s no way you can get those guys extended minutes to rest the starters like some of you want to.
niremetal
March 1st, 2010
2:17 pm
Melvin,
You’re assuming more than what MC actually said. The fact that he mentioned the signing of JoeS and that he wasn’t around at the time indicates to me that he was talking about the offseason, so I don’t know why you’d assume it also included January – after JoeS was signed and when MC was around. I’ll let him say what time frame he was talking about, because that’s not clear to me.
In any case, you still haven’t said a word about why Stackhouse would choose to come here and be the 5th wing in a 3.5 wing rotation instead of going to Milwaukee and getting 20 minutes a game. It’s sad that you’re so convinced of your opinion on this matter that you apparently interpret Stackhouse indicating that he would be interested in the Hawks as tantamount to him having the Hawks as his #1 choice, and that he would have come here regardless of the PT available to him. As I said, this is typical of you – for players that YOU like and that YOU want the Hawks to sign, you interpret everything that happens so that it jives with that player wanting to come here and the Hawks being too cheap/stupid to make it happen. Therefore, in your mind, Stackhouse’s statement of interest is a firm commitment to come to Atlanta if only the Hawks would offer, and Jim Todd’s statement that the Hawks were interested is an outright lie. Heh. Ok, man.
JM
March 1st, 2010
2:25 pm
KS- I agree with you 100%. I’ve laid off of Woody this year but I’m done. I know we won’t get a new coach, but I hoping Sund is watching this sh__. There is no excuse not to be able to make adjustments, use your bench, call a play when in need of a bucket or call a timeout for that matter. Against Dallas, he let them play on for a good 4 or 5 minutes before calling a timeout to stop the bleeding. Phil maybe able to get away with letting his team “play throught it” but Woodson aint Phil Jackson and the Hawks aren’t the Lakers.
As far as Stak, I still don’t know how to read that. At first vet free agents didn’t want to play here. Now that they do, we don’t sign them (although Joe Smith was a good pick up).
Go Hawks!
doc
March 1st, 2010
2:29 pm
daniel, what were those issues? i thought it was because he had been injured last year and his age. he was a bit untested until he worked out here with our boys who liked him a lot according to sekou.
niremetal
March 1st, 2010
2:43 pm
Daniel,
Not that I see why a player choosing to go to a team where he’d get more PT reflects poorly on his decisionmaking ability, but considering that Stackhouse blew a trade a couple years back by telegraphing the fact that it was a pre-arranged deal does indeed make me not think very highly of his decisionmaking ability.
Oh – and Melvin. The Hawks did sign another wing. His name is Mario. Or did you not read the part of my post where I talked about that and questioned the decision?
To me, it seems the Hawks DID have a chance to sign Stack in January. They chose to sign Rio instead. Signing both would have been useless considering that both are undersized swingmen (like Mo) and we have positions where depth is even more of an issue (read: PG). But my puzzlement is why they would pursue Rio instead of Stack when Stack was available, since the cost would have been the same.
The Truth
March 1st, 2010
2:45 pm
Melvin
I had the same reaction when I heard Jim Todd comments about wanting to sign Stack during that interview after the 1st qtr. It suggested a strong interest in wanting Stackhouse which is a lie, a half-truth or an over exaggeration of the facts. The truth is that Sund did show interest but it appeared to be a “weak interest”. From my fact checking, I found this interview Sekou Smith had with Stackhouse:
THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT STACKHOUSE REALLY SAID
Q: You mentioned a handful of teams that make sense for you. Are the Hawks one of those teams?
A: Sure. And we’ve had a little dialogue with them. They have some interest, but I know they have some other things they’re looking at as well. I have a relationship with [ Hawks GM] Rick [Sund] from back in our days in Detroit, and I’m pretty sure he’ll shoot straight with me one way or the other, so we’ll see what happens.
Notice Stackhouse comments: “little dialogue” and “some interest” and also “they have some other things they’re looking at as well”. These comments do not suggest anything remotely to be a strong interest. Perhaps Stackhouse perceived the half-interest shown and returned the favor with a half-interest to the Hawks. Maybe (just maybe) the Bucks showed a much stronger interest so he was more willing to sign with them.
Without any question, Stackhouse would have been an upgrade over Mo Evans. If Steve Wonder had listened to the game last night, he would have seen that. Also, I was surprised how well he played on defense as well.
This is yet another example of how uncreative Sund can be when it comes to acquiring talent with only Crawford being the exception.
Melvin
March 1st, 2010
2:53 pm
Nire,
Let’s stay with the facts. Stack said in the offseason he wanted to play for the Hawks. It was reported by Sekou then and MC now that the Hawks didn’t have any interest in him. Jim Todd said last night during the game that the Hawks said wanted to bring him in. So I dont know where the fall out lies but I do believe the Hawks had a chance to sign him at some point.
Ree Roe
March 1st, 2010
2:55 pm
northcyde you bring up some great points about our bench & our starters and it is true that yes our bench rotation will probably only go 8-9 deep come playoff time, but of those top 10 teams in starters minutes you mentioned, only BOS & LA are considered title contenders. ORL, CLE, DEN & DAL aren’t on that list & that’s why a short bench is a real cause for concern for the Hawks. Against CLE & ORL their depth is why they’re the top 2 teams in the East. When we play them, they’re depth allows them to experiment with lineups in a way that we can’t match. Bottom line is that we need more depth. A developed bench would be useful as we enter a very manageable stretch over these next few weeks.
-REElay it to Roe!!!
Sleepy
March 1st, 2010
2:55 pm
No way Stack wouldve been happy playing 10 minutes per game. Anyone who thinks he would have has absolutely no idea who jerry stackhouse is .
I dont get why its so hard for people to understand why Bibby and Crawford get 4th quarter minutes.Its like some sort of mental block is in place .
Marvin is garbage offensively and our defense with Marvin is simply not good enough to be having this discussion . But our offense when Bibby and Crawford are in the floor together has a much better chance .
With Marvin we hold the opponent to 96 points but we can barely score 90 ourselves so we end up losing 96-93 .
With Bibby and Crawford in the 4th qive up a few easier baskets so the opponent gets 99 but our offense is so much better we score 104 and win by 4 pts .
As it stands right now and I think Woody would agree. Both Bibby and Crawford are clutch players and they have a better chance of making a clutch defensive play whether its a steal ,deflection whatever even when they are off offensively than Marvin has a chance of some offensive explosion in the 4th.
You guys who keep saying you would bet on Marvins defense would lose and lose often.
The most disturbing stat to me is Joe not having any ft attempts until OT. 26 fga and only 2 fta ?
O'Brien
March 1st, 2010
2:58 pm
doc,
I agree with Daniel. In my opinion, not signing Stack was NOT a money issue. The Hawks were probably concerned about his attitude and how he would handle being the 3rd guard off the bench, along with receiving little to no PT sometimes (regardless of who was struggling).
Stackhouse would have helped, but he would have received inconsistent minutes like what Joe Smith gets. So although he looks good playing for the Bucks, I doubt if he would look as good playing here. Plus Stackhouse is probably better suited for SG these days compared to SF.
During the offseason, the Hawks needed a backup SF. The trade deadline has passed, and we still need a backup SF. Mo tries, but he is too small (and he is a SG), and he performs better when he receives steady minutes. Why did Rick Sund not make a move for a backup SF? Thats a bigger question to me.
And why is Z so peeved that he got traded? he has an expiring contract, which means if he wants to, he could sign with somebody else this offseason, and even before the trade, the Cavs were counting on him getting a buyout and resigning with them. So the Cavs were able to add another weapon to help win a championship (isnt that what Z wants?), and then still get get Z back. So what’s his beef?
Melvin
March 1st, 2010
3:02 pm
Truth,
Good find on the link. You are right, I guess there’s truth to what Todd said but the way he said it was very misleading. I wonder if the Hawks offer him an non-guarantee contract at the time as a training camp invitee, which he thought he could have gotten a better offer somewhere else.
Traceman
March 1st, 2010
3:03 pm
I think the decision not to sign Stack was CLEARLY an off the court issue. I read somewhere that one of the reasons he was not asked back in DAL was because he felt he should have been playing more before he got hurt and that was messing with team chemistry.
Melvin
March 1st, 2010
3:10 pm
If Stack has so much baggage than why would the coaching staff wanted to bring him in?
Melvin
March 1st, 2010
3:13 pm
MC, could you track Stack down before the next time we play the Bucks and ask him why he chose the Bucks over the Hawks (or any other team)?.
Thanks in advance.
niremetal
March 1st, 2010
3:13 pm
Melvin,
The timing makes quite a difference. The Hawks apparently showed at least mild interest in Stack last summer, but failed to make him or Mario an offer, choosing instead to go with JoeS, JColl, and Othello. None of those guys were wings, which makes it seem that the Hawks decided (not unreasonably) that they had higher priorities at other positions.
But in January, the Hawks cut Othello and signed Mario – who, like Stack, is an undersized swingman. Stack was a free agent at the time the Hawks waived Othello and signed Mario. That suggests 3 possibilities: 1) Stack was still interested in the Hawks, but the Hawks decided to go with Rio instead; 2) the Hawks were interested in Stack, but Stack turned them down for one reason or another; or 3) neither Stack nor the Hawks were interested in each other. Like you, I’m guessing that in January, possibility 1 was what actually happened. But unlike you, I don’t presume to KNOW what happened and call Jim Todd an outright liar despite my limited knowledge. Do you not see the difference there? But this is par for the course for you. When a player you like signs with another team, you blame it on the Hawks for not getting him, ignoring the possibility that the player might not have come here even if the Hawks had (or did) make an offer.
What I am interested in is WHY the Hawks decided to sign Rio assuming that Stack was available.
thomas22
March 1st, 2010
3:18 pm
I know everyone is on Coach W, but there also has to be an element of “blame” on the players-he’s not coaching a bunch of NCAA players.
How much more does Coach W need to tell them before they do what they’ve been paid to do? Shouldn’t they know how to execute by now-we’ve played over 50 games this season and have won 30+ right?
I have nothing personal against Marvin, but have you seen his play and looked over his stats since we were 19-6? However, he is still a starter. The rotations with Bibby and not benching Josh when he shoots that d**n jumper is on Coach W however……
Melvin
March 1st, 2010
3:22 pm
Nire,
And this is so like you, running to the ASG defense. You did similiar things with the JChill debate. When me, Doc and others clearly said the Hawks drop the ball. As they could have signed him before the Greek offer…. Very similiar situations, player want to be a Hawk but end up playing for another team for whatever reason…
GeeMack
March 1st, 2010
3:25 pm
JM
The Hawks may not be the Laker, and Woody may not be PJax.
However the Hawks play uninspired and unmotivated ball just like the Lakers.
The differene is the Lakers have invested in the talent neccessary to hide those shortcomings. The Hawks on the other hand…well you know.
Traceman
March 1st, 2010
3:33 pm
@ Sleepy,
If Crawford and Bibby are making shots that may be true but since the All Star break, Crawford is shooting 31% (26% on 3’s) and Bibby is shooting 33% (28% on 3’s). Surely Marvin can shoot that poorly if necessary and his defense is so much better that it is not worth discussing.
Actually, given the few shot attempts he gets these days, Marvin isn’t shooting that poorly (43% FG, 50% on 3’s since the All Star break). JJ, Crawford (or Bibby), Smoove and Al should be able to generate enough offense in the 4th and Marvin gives us better D.
In addition, go to 82games.com and look at clutch statistics. Marvin has only been on the floor in 44% of our “clutch situations” as defined by 82games.com but he has been successful in those situations 64% of the time. That 64% would make him our 2nd most successful player in the clutch next to Jamal at 67%.
Oddly enough, Smoove is our least successful clutch player of the 6 guys who play virtually all of the clutch minutes but my guess is that is because he probably comes out of the game in most situations when the other team needs to foul and he doesn’t get “credit” when our players make those FTs.
Melvin
March 1st, 2010
3:47 pm
Traceman,
Are you saying that you prefer Marvin to take clutch shots over Bibby or Crawford? Keep in mind that those stats are showing a guy who take fewer shot per game. So his percentages should look better (less the risk, higher the percentages).
Marvin played 40mins last night and only attempted 5 shots. Now some may say they need to run more plays for him but I think it’s on the player. Mo played less than half the mins Marvin played and attempt one less shot…
Astro Joe
March 1st, 2010
3:52 pm
Geez, has Stack averaged a triple double in the past 10 games or something?
Here’s my unsolicited theory. Othella was cut in early January… the Hawks had a very good December, something like 9-5. But they suffered losses to Nate Rob and Derrick Rose in December (along with back-to-back losses to the Cavs). So if you’re sitting there at that time and thinking “what do we need?”, you come to the same conclusion that many of us did at that time…. someone to harass (at best) and bruise (at worse) quick guards who are going the F off on us. And sorry, but that’s not Jerry Stackhouse.
We discussed this at length and guessed the moment that Othella was cut, who would be brought in (despite the quote from Sund about “checking the waiver wire”). Mario made sense for what we needed at that time. Our offense in December was tremendous, we scored over 95 in all but one game (Cavs of course) and over 100 in probably 80% of the games. So at the time, the greater need was for a designated stopper not a designated scorer.
Lastly, if Crawford weren’t shooting 33% over the past 5-5-6 games, we may not be feeling the need for another scorer right now.
The Truth
March 1st, 2010
4:22 pm
AJ
They called that style of management you described as “OH SH!T” or CRISIS MANAGEMENT. No planning, just reacting to events as we are currently doing with Big Z. If our interest in Big Z is of the same magnitude as Stackhouse then we shouldn’t waste too much bandwidth. A HALF INTEREST = NO INTEREST. Only a strong interest (backup with money) = A REAL INTEREST. In Z’s case, even a real interest is no guarantee (that he will sign) but at least it’s being sincere and not deceptive.
niremetal
March 1st, 2010
4:28 pm
Melvin,
Yup, this is like the Chills debate. You and Doc jumped to the conclusion that the Hawks dropped the ball, and I pointed out that none of us have any clue what happened because none of us were there. Therefore, none of us can say with certainty what, if any, talks were going on between the Hawks and Chills’ people. You and doc acted like it was inconceivable that Chill would have left unless Sund or the ASG “dropped the ball” in some way. I pointed out that Chill had perfectly legit reasons for going to Europe, and that you had no evidence that the Hawks had “dropped the ball.” You still don’t. Just like with Stackhouse, and with you calling Jim Todd a liar not once, but twice. You selectively decide what information you want to hear because it fits with your theory, and then ignore everything else. Confirmation bias ftw!
I readily admit that the Hawks might have dropped the ball with Chill. And I have said out loud – on this very blog – that they probably DID have a chance to sign Stackhouse if they were interested in doing so. And then I actually said that I think they made the wrong call by signing Rio instead. How the HELL is questioning ASG’s decision “running to the ASG defense?” The answer: It’s not. You just are so dead set in your opinion on Stackhouse and Hawks management that Jim Todd is a “liar” for saying something that doesn’t fit with your theory and that I’m “running to the ASG defense” for having the audacity to point out the possibility that you (and I) might be wrong about what happened.
I’d say “get real,” but what’s the use? Confirmation bias ftw!
Ken Strickland
March 1st, 2010
6:08 pm
Guess what everybody, we didn’t sign Stackhouse, we won last night in overtime and wore our top 6 players out in the process. Now we have to deal with the the backend of a back to back against the Bulls on the rd. The question is, will Woodson continue riding our top 6 players into the ground like last night, or will he finally show enough guts and intelligence to use his bench?
How many of you remember Woodson’s response a while back when asked about why RMorris wasn’t getting more mins after turning in several inspiring performances in limited opportunities? Remember when he said it was up to the player to take advantage of the opportunities he gets, and he would give any player additional mins and/or opportunities if that player produced. Otherwise, he’d go elsewhere to get what he wanted. Can anyone remember anything RMorris has done since those inspiring performances and that statement that would cause Woodson to stop even dressing him, let alone refusing to even play him?
Has anyone noticed the frequency in which players like JoSmith, JTeague and RMorris have been benched for long periods, or given extremely limited mins, immediately after turning in solid performances?