Hawks Squawks: Hawks 116, Bulls 92
Chicago– If the Hawks came out with a focused effort, the Bulls didn’t have enough talent in uniform to handle them. That was no sure thing after the Hawks went overtime with the Bucks last night. But the Hawks jumped the Bulls early and then held them off when they tried to rally behind Derrick Rose.
– “They were focused and locked in,” Woody said of his players. “We didn’t lose our composure. That’s a good sign after we played an overtime game last night. Back-to-backs are tough, especially on the road.”
– The Hawks could have relaxed after Luol Deng (knee) was a late scratch to join Joakim Noah (foot) on the injured list. Instead, they handled their business “You don’t want to have a letdown,” Josh said. “You can’t think this is a just a walk-over.”
– Smoove certainly didn’t play that way. He had nine points, three rebounds, two assists and a steal as the Hawks took a 27-17 lead. Final line: 17 points, 18 boards, four assists, two steals and all kinds of energy.
– “Smoove was tremendous again tonight,” Woody said. “That’s back-to-back games. The energy he brings is unbelievable. He really got the guys going tonight.”
– Smoove finally acknowledged what’s been pretty obvious: He’s sending a message to the Eastern Conference coaches who left him off the All-Star team. “Obviously I’m playing with a chip on my shoulder,” he said. “I feel like I’ve got a lot to prove. I know the importance of these last games and I’m trying to focus on winning them.”
– His 18 rebounds paced the Hawks’ 68-37 demolition of the Bulls on the boards. “They didn’t really have a lot of guys that can rebound except for Taj Gibson,” Josh said. “So we felt like we could be aggressive on the boards.”
– Horford had 10 rebounds, Marvin and J.J. nine apiece and Zaza seven. “We finally had a game where everyone was focused on going to the boards,” Woody said.
– This game is evidence for the theory that if Jamal is hitting, then the Hawks don’t have so much trouble putting opponents away. He scored 21 points and shot 6 for 13. “It’s coming back around,” he said. “I’ve been thinking too much. I’m definitely getting my timing back.”
– Give Smoove another assist for that. Jamal said he told him to keep shooting. “He’s an extremely good shooter,” Josh said. “I do the same thing with Bibby and Joe Johnson. He can’t get down on himself. When you have a teammate behind you telling you to keep shooting, it gives you confidence.”
– This is another example of how Josh has become more assertive as a leader. His words have to carry a lot of weight when he’s playing like this. “He’s doing it all,” Jamal said. “Blocking shots, rebounding, steals, assists. He’s a great teammate. He’s genuinely happy if he scores three points and we win.”
– The Bulls had almost no chance with both Jamal and Marvin getting it done. Marvin was big when the Hawks held off the Bulls in the second half. “There are a lot of guys on this team who can really pass the ball, so I just tried to stay active, go to spots and find the ball,” he said.
– Marvin and Kirk Hinrich got called for a double technical for some jawing. Then Marvin bumped Hinrich on the way off the court at halftime. Hinrich and Bulls coaches pleaded for a second technical and ejection for Marvin but officials missed it.
– Marvin said there’s no history between the two and he doesn’t expect any carryover. “That’s just some chippy stuff out there,” he said. “I’ve always been a big fan of his. I know he’s a competitor who plays hard. I’m easygoing but I can get chippy, too.”
– Did you see Mo’s falling-down shot from behind the backboard? Amazing, and it should have been and-1. “I am waiting on the whistle, waiting on the whistle and concentrating on the shot,” he said. ” But I don’t hear a whistle and I’m like, ‘OK.’”
– Mo said he banged his back against the basket standard on that play and had a sore left shoulder and neck after a later fall. He said his arm was tingling when he shot free throws after the second fall. “I had a rough night, man,” he said.
– I’m out, Hawks fans.
MC
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214 comments Add your comment
vava74
March 2nd, 2010
9:20 am
According to ESPN’s Chris Sheridan, these are the top 10 buyouts
1. Michael Finley
2. Travis Diener
3. Larry Hughes
4. Mark Blount
5. Mike James
6. Wally Szczerbiak
7. Kenny Thomas
8. Ricky Davis
9. Brian Cardinal
10. Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Personally, I would not mind adding either Finley, Thomas or Wally.
Finley may be too old right now and I sincerely haven’t seen him playing recently. I think he a had a pretty decent year last season so it is certainly worth considering.
Thomas is a undersized interior scorer who rebounds well for his size. I think his presence would not hurt at all.
Wally could be a got fit if he has recovered from his injury, in particular as a situational 3 point threat (we lack one) or as an offensive insurance in the event that any of our top scores went down temporarily. Yes he can’t guard his own shadow, however, at his age, Finley probably doesn’t too.
The rest don’t seem worth consideration: James, Hugues and Davis are all malcontent-shot-happy idiots (and James has been around since the pyramids)
Cardinal is pretty worthless right now, Blount’s best days are well in the past.
It leaves out Diener who could probably help at the point and with his 3 point marksmanship, however, I confess that I have not seen him play more than a few minutes and I don’t have any idea if he is any good.
James
March 2nd, 2010
9:22 am
Check out that Mario dunk video posted earlier. Smoove and Horford are lovin’ it!
kerry hillman
March 2nd, 2010
9:24 am
Easy win for the hawks, now moving on to the next one, The awesome dunk by mario west was the highlight factor of the game.
KevinA
March 2nd, 2010
9:28 am
northcyde,
So there’s no way those 2 guys can be your main scoring options on the Hawks. Maybe in the future, but not right now. Their inability to create AND MAKE shots, is a detriment to the half court offense
I agree that there not there yet but both are vastly improved. When we have played our best is when our big’s are more involved. Running more sets through both would create more diversity and movement in our offense. Which ties into our huckleberry.
If we got stops, we could push the ball and score. But when we don’t get stops, simply going up the floor fast doesn’t help our offense, because people are already back on defense.
If we pushed the ball more often than not our big’s beat them down the court which feeds into our big’s strength. Even when we are in half court set making that first pass at 18 seconds is much better than 13 sec. This gives us time to go inside and maybe back out again and still have time for an ISO move.
Using Al to draw the center out is a strategy that could be used against the Howard’s of the world. Using Josh on the block like Duncan would be perfect with his passing skills. One of the gripes with Woody is the lack of experimentation using the skills we see during helter swelter.
So what happens in the playoffs, when Smoove and Al have to go up against the big frontline’s that tend to neutralize both guys?
Increasing the skill level of our big’s will not happen without touches and repetition. Throwing in the towel to teams with better rebounders and resorting to jump shooting and guard play is futile for sustained offense. Al is finally getting more shots and both are getting more touches. If this would have started a year ago we would have been farther down the road to better balance. Apparently I think we are alot closer to this development and have more faith in the skill levels of our young bigs.
niremetal
March 2nd, 2010
9:33 am
Oh, what the hell.
northcyde,
Ramon, the team’s MVP is obviously Joe Johnson.
He’s the guy that has been making the tough shots all year. He is the guy that the opposing team gameplan to stop. He’s the guy whose presence on the court, makes life easier for other guys . . . even if he isn’t scoring. He’s the guy that allows Jamal Crawford to go up against a weaker defender, when he and JJ are playing together. ( the other team’s best perimeter defender will ALWAYS guard JJ )
On offense, yes. But there’s another side to the game called “defense.” Josh is the best help defender in the league, and his on-ball defense this year is the best it’s ever been. JJ is a good perimeter defender, but his impact there is a fraction of Josh’s. Why does JJ’s offensive impact outweigh Josh’s defensive?
But when he goes to the bench, this team tends to fall completely apart, especially defensively out on the perimeter. It even happened tonight. The run that the Bulls made at the end of the 3rd quarter, came IMMEADIATELY after JJ went to the bench, even though JJ wasn’t having a good shooting game.
Well, JJ is usually out at the same time as Josh, and JJ’s defensive replacement (Jamal) is much shakier than Josh’s (JoeS or Zaza). Confirmation bias to interpret defensive +/- without considering that.
People hate ISO-JOE around here so much, that they fail to realize how good of an ISO player JJ is. When that guy is on, he makes Kobe-esque type shots. Every ISO-JOE miss gets criticized extensively. But the ISO-JOE makes hardly get noticed, unless he’s hit 4 or 5 shots in a row off of ISO offense
But how often does that latter bit happen? Much less often than the multiple consecutive misses, I assure you.
Remember, the kryptonite to this team are frontlines who can defend and dominate on the boards.
Actually, equally kryptonitic are quick teams that slash us to death. And that’s not something that is remotely our frontcourt’s fault.
Horford has struggled mightily against big centers all year. He can try all he wants to be that back to the basket scorer. But ever since he declared that he could be a “go to scorer” at All-Star Weekend, he has struggled mightily after the break.
I don’t even know where to begin with that one. The first game after the break, Horford scored 31. The next night, 10 and 9. Then 26 and 11. He’s averaging 17ppg since the break and hasn’t gone below 10 since January. That 31 came against All-Star 7-footer Chris Kaman, and the 26 was against 7′0 Biedrins. His best games before that was 24/16 and 25/19, both against the 7′2 Hibbert. Yup, Horford sure struggles against those big centers.
[Josh and Al's] inability to create AND MAKE shots, is a detriment to the halfcourt offense.
It might not be a good thing if we asked them to shoot 18 times a night, but right now it’s tough to argue that it’s a detriment considering that they have the #1 and #2 EFG%s on our team.
The one good thing about those two…
Uh…the “one?”
Even a forced jumper by JJ ends up being a quality shot, because he can make that shot over 40% of the time on most nights.
That’s funny. Because right now, JJ is shooting exactly 40% from 16-23 feet and 37% from deep. If he’s hitting forced jumpers 40% of the time, he must do pretty damned poorly on the unforced ones. A forced jumper by JJ is not a good shot.
ken
March 2nd, 2010
9:33 am
Please stop with the Big Z stuff because its a wrap that he will go back to the Cavs especially now that Shaq will be out . This way the Cavs will get the benefit in two ways, resting Shaq and getting Z back in fold. It would not surprise me at all if this whole scenario was staged to remove any doubt in the mind of Big Z about going somewhere else. Teams are willing to do anything to win a championship. The question I have for the Hawks is this. Why did you wait so late to try to get another legitimate big when the need has been there from the start of the season? How serious are you about going to the next level?
Astro Joe
March 2nd, 2010
9:40 am
Well, this is certainly a disappointing list of vets who are available to be added to the roster:
http://espn.go.com/nba/dailydime/_/page/dime-100301/daily-dime
Coach D
March 2nd, 2010
9:44 am
Good point JeJe.
Also, JJ spends a lot of his warm-up time practicing 1 on 1 moves and then shooting fade away jump shots that more often than not go in. He practices those crazy azz fade aways all the time. With the shot clock there are going to be forced/tough shots, but I wish there were fewer…
What I don’t understand is this crap of getting the ball to the guard right around half-court on what looks like a post-up 50 feet away from the basket!!!! I could be wrong, but I believe the Hawks are the only team to do this crap! Move without the ball, set pick-and-rolls, penetrate & dish to get into sets, etc…
Nevertheless, GO HAWKS-Get Big Z!
niremetal
March 2nd, 2010
9:45 am
Ricky Davis = no thanks.
KevinA
March 2nd, 2010
9:48 am
niremetal,
I’ve never understood why you and some others feel that praising Josh and Al somehow requires belitilling other players. It doesn’t.
You keep pushing that point and mostly I just ignore it. I think JJ and Jamal are great. You just have some idea that my suggestion of more front court play is negative towards the guards. As time goes by our big’s natural ability is becoming more refined and skilled. My position is to feed them more to speed up the process of their impact. As their role has gained prominence they have responded. In the end I believe a bigger role by Al and Josh will help Jamal and JJ become even more efficient.
As mentioned many times getting the ball to the big’s early in the clock gives the opportunity to pass more, not just take shots. The goal is less contested shots by big’s or guards.
Astro Joe
March 2nd, 2010
9:49 am
I’d rather bring back Loreenzen Wright than add Ricky Buckets.
Fundamentals
March 2nd, 2010
10:32 am
So far no sign of quality on the waiver wire?
Except maybe Big Z, but it’s doubtful he’ll give us a shot.
Focus on Friday.
Sautee
March 2nd, 2010
10:37 am
nire,
Nice parry. You beat me to the punch on several of northcyde’s statements.
But here’s another:
“That dribble, dribble, dribble pass at the last minute, usually gets Marvin or Bibby a wide open look. It’s not pretty offense at all, but it does get guys good looks.”
I’ll take issue with the “usually”. To be real, I’d have to say “sometimes”.
Melvin
March 2nd, 2010
10:37 am
Astro,
Philips Arena have enough people working the popcorn stands. No Lorenzen Wright please. Two tours of duty was enough for the Popcorn Man in Hawksland.
Astro Joe
March 2nd, 2010
10:41 am
Melvin, you can never have too much popcorn!
niremetal
March 2nd, 2010
10:42 am
KevinA,
My issue with you is that you wildly inflate Josh and Al’s abilities while complaining constantly that the guards don’t pass enough. I admit, you don’t explicitly “belittle” the contributions of your non-favorite players as much as some others around here, but you clearly see all the games through a warped lens in which your expect our shooting guards to act like point guards and think our frontcourt is a Duncan-and-Robinson in the making. The result is that you expect the Hawks to play in a manner that no playoff team in the NBA (and maybe no team at all) has played since the Duncan/Robinson Spurs. That you think the Hawks offense should be modeled after that team’s shows that you greatly undervalue what our backcourt brings to the table, and overvalue what our frontcourt brings.
I will never let you live down your statement a few weeks back that Horford has the potential to be a Tim Duncan-level offensive player. Because I don’t see how anyone in their right mind can possibly think that Horford (or Smoove) could ever be the type of offensive threat that Duncan – a 2-time MVP and first-ballot HOFer who averaged 21 and 11 from the day he entered the league – was and is. To be blunt, no one suddenly blossoms into a Tim Duncan.
So I’ll alter my complaint about you: I’ve never understood why you can’t praise Josh and Al without taking it one step too far by hyperbolizing their abilities and potential and saying that they should push an elite offensive player down to the #3 option.
vava74
March 2nd, 2010
10:46 am
Fundamentals,
The list of available bodies is above on a former post. Not much of an offer… it feels like going to a discount store on a last day of the sales… only broken or really old items available.
I didn’t realize that Thomas’ game had faded so much during the past 3 years. I thought that he could still get a 5 and 4 off the bench every once in a while.
ICECOLD
March 2nd, 2010
11:31 am
northcyde- its not that they over looking joe.. its that people are proud of josh smith and what he has been doin.. they know that in order for us to do anything in the playoffs or even attempt to win a championship.. josh smith has to keep doing what he is doing. joe johnson as been a all star for four years, josh smith hasnt been in one yet.so atlanta hawks fans are glad that he is proving the coaches wrong by how he is playing. joe is going to be joe, but when any other player is doing good or great, then they deserve a little extra props then normal… also.. josh smith feels the stat sheet better then anybody else in the league. every catagory he has stepped his game up ( he was even close to a quadruple double 20+ points 13 rebounds 7 steals and 8 assist against the bucks)… if he continues to do that.. yeah he should be the hawks MVP.. most valuable player and the best player are two different things.. best player is joe johnson, he is no doubt.. but he doesnt rebound and get steals and block shots like josh smith does.. so josh is the most valuable player because he does it all.. all.. literally
Traceman
March 2nd, 2010
11:37 am
@ Kevin A,
Your 9:48 post is totally different than your previous assertion that:
“JJ is a great ball player but in reality by the end of the year he should be the third option behind Josh and Al.”
I think most people agree that it is a good thing to involve Smoove and Al more in the offense and that has been happening this year. Their touches are up from last year (even if they don’t always shoot it) and Bibby’s and Marvin’s touches are down. As a result, the offense is more balanced than it was last year and we are a more efficient offensive team overall. If Marvin and Bibby can start making shots again with their reduced touches, this team will be
That said, I can’t envision a scenario where Smoove or Al becomes a higher offensive option than JJ on this team in the next 3 years. MAYBE if JJ slows down in 4 or 5 years but certainly no time soon.
That doesn’t mean that Smoove or Al won’t be “better” players than JJ prior to that time because there is FAR more to this game than offense. Whether either of them becomes better players than JJ remains to be seen.
I think a case can be made that Smoove is the MVP of the team right now because he covers up for so many deficiencies that other players have on this team. BUT, he is NOT our best player in a vacuum. JJ is.
Traceman
March 2nd, 2010
11:44 am
Reference my previous post,
“If Marvin and Bibby can start making shots again with their reduced touches, this team will be MUCH BETTER OFF.”
Grandad
March 2nd, 2010
11:47 am
Gentlemen:
What would be wrong with an old fasioned concept of ‘Team’, which we seem to have, and not worry about MVP oe Alpha dog.
I love what Jamal said about Josh:
“he could care less if he gets 3 pts. but the team wins”.
The mere fact that we argue over who is MVP suggests there is no clear cut one that stands out above the other. This is a good thing.
As far as Alpha dog… we must admit…we don’t have one. It’s not Joe’s personality. Team leader, I think it is quietly Al. Spiritual,
emotional leader, no doubt = Josh. You throw in Jamal and we have
four seemingingly indespensible players. I’m glad we have each one.
Let’s not try to place one above the other. Have a good day my friends.
Grandad
March 2nd, 2010
11:51 am
If I could get through just one post w/o a typo:
oe Alpha dog… looks like a mens fraternity @ UGA !
northcyde
March 2nd, 2010
12:09 pm
Y’all can go over to HS to see some of my posts directed at Northcyde, the HawkSquawk version of Samuel. He goes too far in the other direction, overstating JJ’s abilities and not sufficiently recognizing how limiting and ultimately self-defeating the ISO-Joe offense is.
Hey northcyde, do you understand yet that 3>2?
ISO JJ is a necessary evil for this offense, considering we don’t have a penetrating PG who can get to the rim AND score . . . or a dependable low post option who can create his own shot AND score. It’s obviously something that can’t be ran all game, but you have to run it enough to get the one person who can score in the halfcourt offense, scoring opportunities. JJ has been one of the assist leaders on this team going on 5 years now. I simply trust his decision making, whether he shoots the ball out of ISO-JJ . . or passes the ball out of ISO-JJ.
LOL . . I understand that 3>2 . . . but do you understand what a wasted possession is? Question for you . . which player is the shooter you’d want on the Hawks?
- The Marvin Williams that is a 33% 3FG shooter and a 35% long range 2 point shooter
or
- The Marvin Williams that didn’t shoot threes at all, but was a 45% shooter on long 2 point shots?
Melvin
March 2nd, 2010
12:12 pm
Grandad,
Cosign your post. I’m happy that we have all those players and I think it shows team growth (or organic growth per Astro) that we can debate over who the team MVP is b/c in years past it was unarguably JJ’s….
O'Brien
March 2nd, 2010
12:18 pm
AJ,
Senior night for Clemson against GT tonight. Trevor Booker’s last home game. Check him out
Rod from College Park
March 2nd, 2010
12:28 pm
Sautee,
“That dribble, dribble, dribble pass at the last minute, usually gets Marvin or Bibby a wide open look. It’s not pretty offense at all, but it does get guys good looks.”
My question would be is it really a good look if the guys you are passing to have proven they can’t make those shots. Was it a good luck when he was passing to Josh behind the 3 point line?
niremetal
March 2nd, 2010
12:29 pm
Northcyde,
Way to frame a loaded question. Marvin is shooting 33.7% from deep, 35% on long twos, and 55% on shots closer than that, and most of his shots now fall in the formermost and lattermost categories. I prefer that Marvin to the one who shot 45% on long twos but rarely ventured inside and never outside the arc. Marvin is shooting a higher effective percentage from the floor now than he did two years ago, so I prefer the current model in terms of shooting from the field, although last year’s model would be ideal.
How about this: Do you prefer last year’s Marvin or the one from the year before? After all, Marvin’s FG% was slightly down last year, but his eFG% was way up. Would you rather have Marvin shoot long jumpers hit them 45% of the time, or 3s that he hits 34% of the time? Hmmmm?
3>2, northcyde. You made a complete fool of yourself on HS trying to pretend like that’s a misleading equation, but I sense you’re about to repeat the error here.
For those who are so bored that they want to see what this stems from, look here:
http://www.hawksquawk.net/community/index.php/topic/342466-why-wont-woodson-make-smoove-quit-shooting-jumpshots/page__st__20
AceDawg
March 2nd, 2010
12:30 pm
Next year, can the Hawks get Chris Bosh? Maybe he’d have interest in returning to Atlanta in light of his GTech days? I’d find that as perfect of a pickup as the Hawks could get being as Lebron wouldn’t come. If Joe Johnson stuck around, Atlanta would have to official NBA Championship contenders from one sports writer to the next.
JeJe
March 2nd, 2010
12:32 pm
“Some of you need to watch the other NBA teams. They don’t waste time playing useless players that can’t help the squad. Most teams go 9 deep, if that. Very few go 10 deep. So questioning Woody on why the 10th, 11th, and 12th man doesn’t get a lot of playing time, is kind of silly.”
That’s not the point. The point is that Woody doesn’t use the 7th 8th and 9th guys much or at all. Last night was the firs ttime in a while that he has given minutes in the 2nd half too. HE DOES NOT USE THE BENCH IN CLOSE GAMES. HE IS BURNING OUT OUR STARTER’S LEGS. CAN YOU NOT SEE THIS
Najeh Davenpoop
March 2nd, 2010
12:47 pm
In response to northcyde, niremetal already addressed most of the key points in his 9:33 am post, but let me just add:
“So what happens in the playoffs, when Smoove and Al have to go up against the big frontlines that tend to neutralize both guys? Remember, the kryptonite to this team are frontlines who can defend and dominate on the boards.”
What happens in the playoffs when Joe has to go up against someone like LeBron? That didn’t work out too well last year either.
All of the Hawks have limitations. Not all of them compensate for their limitations in the same way. This is the difference between Joe and Josh. When Joe is having trouble scoring, he continues shooting until he breaks his slump. When Josh is having trouble scoring, he tries to get dimes, control the boards, and create transition opportunities with his steals and blocks, like he did in this game for example, even though he was going up against one of the top power forward defenders of all time.
When I say Smoove is the Hawks’ MVP, it’s not necessarily a criticism of Joe. When Joe is on, whih is most of the time, he’s as good as any 2-guard in the league. The problem is, when he’s off, he costs the Hawks possessions by under-utilizing the rest of his talents, while Josh makes a conscious effort to impact the game in other ways.
Of course, all of this would be a moot point if Woody gave a sh-t about offense beyond just giving the ball to Joe and getting out of the way. I place a lot more blame on Woody for relying too much on iso-Joe than on Joe for not making more things happen when his shot is not falling.
Grandad
March 2nd, 2010
1:02 pm
Question: [All you fellas jump in on this one]
If Teaguer Had been playing 16 min. per all season long:
What would our record be?
(Would he have cost us a significant amount of wins?)
How much better/worse would we be right now?
(not record/but from a team standpoint, it’s perception and perspective)
vava74
March 2nd, 2010
1:10 pm
Co-sign Najeh
O'Brien
March 2nd, 2010
1:19 pm
melvin, nire, northcyde,
I wonder who has been the beneficiary of most of JJ’s assists this year, and who has been the beneficiary of Josh’s assists?
In my opinion, JJ is our best player, but Josh is the team MVP. It would be great if we could simulate games to find out if we replaced JJ with an average SG, what impact would that have on the team?
Now replace Josh with an average PF, and see what that impact is. It would be interesting to see.
Grandad,
Thats a tough question to answer, and it will vary from each camp. In one camp (the camp I’m in), I dont think playing Teague would have cost us games, assuming Woody knows how and when to use him while still finding 16 mpg for him.
In the other camp, they will say he has not looked good enough in games to deserve 16 mpg (especially with that low FG%), and they might even say the Hawks would have lost more games.
rusty
March 2nd, 2010
1:29 pm
northcyde
you greatly overvalue jj.he is not a great shooter,he is a very streaky shooter. i dont want to see him always dominating the ball & the shot cloak. when he starts ball hogging it usually means that our offense grows stagnant. he is horrible at forcing shots & turning the ball over. most of his assists are not assists on getting some one an easy shot but making some one having to make a jumpshot with time running out. in the old days he would not even to get an assist. when jj is ball hogging our offense shuts down. when jc
goes iso he often feeds off for easy shots. he also doesnt eat the shot cloak up. jc is also
a much better outside shooter & can get his shot off quickly. jj lately is shooting better lately than he has in a long time even tho not consistantly. anyone who thinks jj is a good defensive player is wrong. quick guards easily drive around him & strong guards over power him. he tries to play defense by using his hands. he often doesnt show great hustle going after loose balls.if some one is coming to him on a fast break he dissapears.
northcyde
March 2nd, 2010
1:50 pm
It’s still all about wasted possessions. I’m not talking about Marvin driving to the hole. I think everyone agrees that if he can get to the basket, he should definitely do that. I’m talking about his jumpshot ( which is his major weapon as a player )
Two years ago, he was dang near “automatic” on his long jumpshot, without worrying about taking a 3. Last season, he did seem like he was going to be able to incorporate both the long range and midrange game to his arsenal. This season, he’s a slightly below average 3 point shooter and a below average long 2 shooter, seeing that his looks are almost all spot-up looks via a pass, rather than pull up jumpshots. With his usage much lower than it has been in past years, it’s more important now than ever, that we get quality possessions out of Marvin every chance we get.
Marvin developing his 3 point shot is only good, if he can make 37%+ of his attempts. As a spot up shooter who will get wide open attempts, and as a guy who isn’t going to get a lot of shot attempts, he needs to shoot that high from 3.
Give me “Money Midrange Marvin” any day of the week, than this wannabe 3 point shooter whose shot seems to be off from what used to be “money midrange”.
Here is his 2007 – 08 game log. Forget the fact that he used to almost always get double figures in games, go to the shot chart, and look at where he used make shots from. If we had that player, instead of the one we have now, we’d be so much better off as a team.
Even his 3 point shooting last year, may have been fool’s gold. He had that great November in which he shot 47%. Then he shot 27% in December. Then back up to 39% in January. And back down to 28% in February. He was shooting 33% in March, before he went down with the injury ( missing his last 6 attempts ).
Give me the 45% long 2 shooter, who will convert a positive result almost 1 out of every 2 shots.
Melvin
March 2nd, 2010
1:52 pm
OB,
I honestly can’t say who been the beneficiary in either case. I seen them both spread the assist around to different guys. I will let that one to some of the Stat guys on here to research.
Grandad,
I’m in OB camp. Play the rook and let him learn on the job. There’s substitute for game experience. And I dont believe that our record would be anyworse than it is now. Heck I would make a case that it would be 1 or 2 games better b/c Teague ability to stay in front of those speedy PGs and allow Joe to guard the opposing team SG. Oh well, thats my two cents and I’m sure I will get bash for it…
Grandad
March 2nd, 2010
2:06 pm
O’B & Melvin:
It’s only hypothetical and just for fun anyway!
I’m with you guys as I think most are.
Najeh Davenpoop
March 2nd, 2010
2:17 pm
“Question: [All you fellas jump in on this one]
If Teaguer Had been playing 16 min. per all season long:
What would our record be?
(Would he have cost us a significant amount of wins?)”
9 extra minutes of Teague wouldn’t have impacted the record one way or another. But I’ll bet that if Teague had been getting 16 consistent minutes off the bench at the beginning of the year, he would have improved by now to the point that he would have forced Woody to give him more minutes, in light of Bibby’s decline. As it stands, Woody uses his inexperience as a reason to not give him minutes, when it is his decision to not give him minutes that causes him to be inexperienced.
In the long run, of course giving your first-round pick point guard of the future playing time benefits your team. There is no logical explanation for how he will improve more by sitting and watching.
Melvin
March 2nd, 2010
2:29 pm
Well said, Najeh…
Big Ray
March 2nd, 2010
2:32 pm
Hell of a battle I’ve seen here today. Some truly great blogging.
Gotta give northcyde credit for both staying calm and sticking to his stuff.
Since honest abe doesn’t grace us with his presence anymore, the Ninja moniker now goes to Niremetal , in no small part due to the blade work he has displayed today. I haven’t seen anything like that since Jet Li in “Hero”. Hot DAMN….
Grandad has a great point though: Why make this Joe vs Josh? That’s not what it is, or at least I hope not. We need both guys rather badly. They both serve different roles, and the expansion of roles to Josh, Al, and Crawford can only help Joe. Remember the days when Joe had to do everything? Those days are and should be gone. We should be glad of that. They should be glad of that.
Having said that, Mike Woodson himself said Josh has been our MVP. Take that for what it’s worth. I’m sure he didn’t mean it to say that Joe is secondary to Josh. That’s certainly not how I took it. It’s been said by many media and experts alike that for the Hawks to take the next stop, Josh had to start being what his potential has said he could be: the most unique player in the league with what he does. He’s being that player now. Don’t hate. Appreciate. It has nothing to do with JJ’s “alpha dog” status. Dude is still top scorer/offensive player. IT’S HIS ROLE. I wonder if Boston fans find ways to argue whether Kevin Garnett or Paul Pierce is MVP? Geesh…
Najeh ,
On point. As always. You’re as consistent as I wish our beloved Birds were….
Grandad ,
Great question. I think it’s a bit tough to say what our record would look like if Teague had gotten a consistent 16 mpg this season. Part of it depends on when within the game he got the minutes. Do I think he’d be a better player due to increased minutes? Absolutely. Each minute added is experience, and you don’t get the full effect of that from the box score. Playing more minutes does not mean automatically performing better in stat land. It means learning, and learning sooner. It’s too late for that now, though. We’re going to have to ride the train we boarded, and hope it turns out okay.
Astro Joe ,
Lorezen Wright = quality fouls. Every time. Gotta love it.
Lacsho
March 2nd, 2010
2:35 pm
Hmmm, Just her Woodrow on 790 the zone, and I have to agree with his assesment of JSMOOVE (SMASH). Woodrow stated Smoove was the MVP on this team.
Now can we build around Smoove and Horford?
Lacsho
March 2nd, 2010
2:38 pm
What’s good Big Ray?
Ree Roe
March 2nd, 2010
2:43 pm
Coach Woodson was on 2 Live Stews this afternoon and said Smoove was the team’s MVP. When Josh is playing at a high energy level (blocking shots, dunking, getting rebounds, passing, getting steals) we can beat ANYBODY. This team’s swagger is different. I’m a big Joe fan, but he’s not the team’s MVP this season. He is solid & steady as always, but the engine for the Hawks is #5
-REEtired, yes or Roe?!?
niremetal
March 2nd, 2010
3:02 pm
Two years ago, he was dang near “automatic” on his long jumpshot
45% is “automatic?”
Give me “Money Midrange Marvin” any day of the week, than this wannabe 3 point shooter whose shot seems to be off from what used to be “money midrange”.
45% is “money?”
Hey northcyde, guess what: 3>2. So in the mid- and long-term, shooting 35% from 3 will result in more points for the team than shooting 40-45% with long twos. And it will give your team a better shot at grabbing offensive rebounds (at least as long as the shooter isn’t a PF/C). That’s why teams work to deny 3 pointers and shots in the paint and funnel them into shooting from mid-range.
3>2, northcyde. 3>2.
JeJe
March 2nd, 2010
3:15 pm
northcyde sucks.
Prove me wrong on this:
Some of you need to watch the other NBA teams. They don’t waste time playing useless players that can’t help the squad. Most teams go 9 deep, if that. Very few go 10 deep. So questioning Woody on why the 10th, 11th, and 12th man doesn’t get a lot of playing time, is kind of silly.”
That’s not the point. The point is that Woody doesn’t use the 7th 8th and 9th guys much or at all. Last night was the firs ttime in a while that he has given minutes in the 2nd half too. HE DOES NOT USE THE BENCH IN CLOSE GAMES. HE IS BURNING OUT OUR STARTER’S LEGS. CAN YOU NOT SEE THIS
doc
March 2nd, 2010
3:25 pm
i am glad i am a fly on the wall on days like today.
northcyde
March 2nd, 2010
3:37 pm
Dang . . I forgot to post Marvin’s 2007 – 08 game log:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=2797&year=2008
*************
@ rusty
Players who can create AND MAKE shots are a prized asset around this league. The guys who can do that, are the guys who become stars in this league, for the most part. But let’s put it to the test. We all know what JJ’s strengths and weaknesses are. But let’s see how they stack up against the top SGs in the league.
When it comes to guys who create their own shot amongst shooting guards, JJ is in a group with: Kobe, Wade, Brandon Roy, Monta Ellis, and Vince Carter. These are the 6 main guys in the league that see less than 40% of their FG makes being assisted.
In other words . . . these are your main ISO shooting guards in the NBA. ( Crawford sees 42% of his makes being assisted, so I could easily add him to this group as well )
But let’s break it down, and see how Joe Johnson stacks up against those other SGs. All of this data can be found on hoopdata.com:
at the rim%
- Roy: 66.2%
- Crawford: 66%
- Wade: 64.9%
- Ellis: 60.4%
- Johnson: 59.4%
- Kobe: 57.8%
- Carter: 51.6%
( No real surprises here, although people may be surprised at seeing Crawford convert at a 66% rate at the rim. The problem though, is that he only gets to the rim 2.5 times a game. JJ is a little better at 3.7 times a game. Guys like Ellis and Wade get to the rim almost 7 times a game )
<10 feet ( but not at the rim ):
- Johnson: 52.2%
- Wade: 47.2%
- Kobe: 46%
- Roy: 44.4%
- Ellis: 44.1%
- Carter: 42%
- Crawford: 34.9%
( This is the floater folks, JJ’s signature shot. Since JJ doesn’t get all the way to the rim when he goes inside, he’ll shoot the floater. He leads the league amongst SGs in attempts in this area, averaging 3.6 attempts per game. Only Monta Ellis, at 3.3, is close to JJ in attempts in this area. Matter of fact, he’s 5th in the league from this range in attempts, and 4th in the league in makes. He’s one of the best in the league from this area )
10 – 15 FT:
- Crawford: 50%
- Johnson: 49.5%
- Kobe: 49.4%
- Roy: 48.9%
- Ellis: 40%
- Carter: 37%
(( Surprised again? You shouldn’t be. JJ has done this his entire career. And you shouldn’t be surprised to see Crawford shoot 50% from here either. When he blows by people and pulls up inside the FT line, the shot is usually money. Problem is, he doesn’t do it a lot. But this is Kobe’s area. The vaunted short midrange game in which he can absolutely kill people from. At 4.2 shot attempts per game, he and Rip Hamilton ( another midrange guy ), shoot more than twice as much as anybody else in the league from this area. JJ at 1.8 attempts, is tied for 7th amongst SGs )
16 – 23 FT:
- Crawford: 43%
- Roy: 42%
- Kobe: 42%
- Johnson: 40%
- Carter: 40%
- Wade: 38%
- Ellis: 38%
(( Once again, there’s Crawford at the top of this list from long midrange. What drives me crazy about Crawford, is that instead of taking more midrange jumpers, he’ll sometimes settle for wild three point attempts. He’s playing great for us overall, but he could be even better if he just take people off the dribble, instead of settling for the pull up 3 pointer. As for JJ, he’s right there at 40% ( which was as high as 44% before these last 2 games brought his percentage down )
3 Point Range ( eFg%):
- Johnson: 56.1%
- Crawford: 54.8%
- Roy: 52.4%
- Carter: 51.5%
- Kobe: 48.9%
- Ellis: 48.5%
- Wade: 44.1%
Once again, our guys are #1 and #2 in the league, when it comes to ISO SGs.
***************
Crawford has been dynamic for us this year. But since the All-Star break , he’s reverted back into the old “jack it up from 3″ Crawford. We don’t need those wild 3’s from him. Play under control, and get in that 15 – 20 foot range. If you’re open from 3, take the shot. If you’re on fire, keep shooting at will.
While Crawford can make the 3 point shot, what makes him lethal is his ability to take and make midrange jumpers off the dribble. It’s a special trait that only a few guys in the league possess.
Luckily for us, JJ is one of those people. See . . what this fan base doesn’t realize in all of their “pseudo-hate” of JJ, is that this dude is SPECIAL. You guys may not like the methodical way he sets up his shot or goes to the hole, but the dude gets the job done. I don’t overrate this dude one bit. He’s just that good on most nights. When it comes to the midrange game, only JJ, Kobe, and Monta Ellis use it the way it’s supposed to be used. And he’s a good enough 3 point shooter to be respected from that range at all times.
The ONLY thing keeping JJ from averaging 25 ppg, is the lack of foul calls he gets from the refs. If the dude shoots an air ball on a floater, the whistle should IMMEADIATELY be blown, because he simply doesn’t airball that shot. He gets hammered a lot going to the hole, but no foul is called. ( the same goes for Josh Smith ). When JJ finally starts to get “superstar” calls, is when he’ll turn into a legit superstar player.
Respect your Captain folks. Yeah, he can have a bad night. But on most nights, this dude is Kobe Jr, with the amount of tough shots he can make.
Th
O'Brien
March 2nd, 2010
3:43 pm
To nire and northcyde’s point though,
The bottomline is Marvin is not the shooter we need him to be (regardless of whether thats midrange or long distance). We need a more consistent threat (especially from 3) like a Mike Miller, Kyle Korver type, because Marvin gets a lot of open looks (especially from the corner).
And with the way JJ and Josh can pass the ball, that shooter will get lots of open looks (Bibby gets some too, but he’s been off this year too).
As for the JJ argument, he is the 3rd best SG in the league, and I hope the Hawks do whatever it takes to keep him. But I agree with Woody that Josh is the team MVP. The Hawks are lucky that we have 2 guys capable of being the MVP on any given night.
Grandad,
Teague does make a lot of rookie mistakes (silly fouls, gambling for steals), and he has a low FG%. But he provides a change of pace, and he he has the potential to play better defense than Bibby (if he’s not doing it already). The key is Woody has to figure out how and when to utilize him.
The Hawks have been fortunate to escape the injury bug this season. But what if Bibby gets injured in game 1 of the playoffs, and is out for 3-5 games? Hawks would not know how to respond to adversity (what’s plan B), and Teague would be thrown out there and forced to learn under the bright light of the playoffs, so why not give him the PT now so that if he is needed in the playoffs, he wont have cold feet?
I MUS WRITE
March 2nd, 2010
3:44 pm
Northcyde easy with the JJ man Crush Homie……..
Astro Joe
March 2nd, 2010
3:46 pm
@MC said that he has seen Woody tell a guy how to do something and 10 seconds later that player does something different. Would you give that player extensive playing time if they seem to have problems picking up tactical concepts? How do you think that would be perceived by teammates if Woody gives extensive playing time to someone who has trouble retaining a lesson seconds after it is taught? Since we’re throwing out “what if” scenarios today, i thought I would toss one out.