Hawks at Bulls, AKA Big Ray and Woody’s Way
Salmons saw too much Iso-Joe. (Gregory Smith, AP)
Big Ray brings the funk today with strong takes on iso and D. They are seemingly unrelated topics but I’m going to tie them together after taking a look at what he’s saying.
Ray observes that “the Hawks don’t seem to buy into the defensive precepts of Mike Woodson anymore.”
What happened? A team once known for getting wins by playing a suffocating defense, now finds itself as one of the more defensively inept teams in the league. Hawks commentator Bob (
RathburnRathbun) noted that Atlanta is in the bottom third of the League in defense. Why? Is the defensive concept an issue? Are the players not listening to the coaching staff? Can it really be attributed fully to one or the other, or (solely) to any other theory?
First, let me say the Hawks aren’t quite that bad on D. If Rathburn Rathbun was referring to points allowed per game, the Hawks actually rank 12th at 97.3. I prefer to look at efficiency (points allowed per 100 possessions), where the Hawks rank 13th at 103.8. They finished last season ranked 11th at 104.6.
(Edit: Rathbun emailed me: “I referenced on the air our field goal percentage defense. We finished FEB 25th in the league in FG% defense (.479).” What he didn’t say is I butchered his name twice. My bad.)
But the point stands that the Hawks just don’t seem to be defending as well lately. And it is weird since Woody is all about D. Ray ponders whether the concepts are the issue, and from what I’ve seen one big problem with the switching D is the Hawks sometimes are waaaaay too slow to help when there’s a mismatch in the post or on the perimeter. Pat Riley calls it “pulling triggers” when player are really scrambling and reacting with every pass and teammates are covering for each other. Riley pounded “pulling triggers” into his team’s psyche so much that it’s part of the Heat culture, and if players didn’t buy into it they didn’t play (that’s one reason Beasley, for all his offensive talents, has come along slowly there). “We weren’t pulling triggers tonight” was a common quote from Heat players after a bad defensive outing.
I just haven’t seen that kind of intensity and commitment from the Hawks lately. Recently Woody said the Hawks might think they can just outscore opponents. And usually that might be true but these poor fourth quarters lately show the danger in that approach. Which brings us to isos. Ray says: “Iso-Joe (j)ust really isn’t the issue. Oh sure, it’s a hot button topic if you’re focused on who you want to blame for stagnant offense or a loss. As stated by folks like Niremetal . . . the Hawks run a series of ISO plays.”
I’ve seen some of my blog people say Woody only runs isos. That’s not true, of course. The Hawks have other plays but Ray is so on point when he says those plays end up in iso because the Hawks just aren’t very persistent in running their sets to completion or resetting when option No. 1 isn’t there. It’s part of the problem I’ve had with tracking Iso-Joes: If he gets a screen, gets doubled, backs it out and goes one-on-one for the last 18 seconds, is it an iso? I’d say yes, but technically it wasn’t the play.
But the Hawks do tend to go iso-heavy late in games, especially lately. I think Ray is a little bit too dismissive of Iso-Joe as an issue. So was I when I first got on the beat because I figured that it works most of the time so it’s a good thing (and I still think that to a certain extent). But the part I underestimated is the psychological effect Iso-Joe can have on the team when it doesn’t work.
I’ve seen enough scrunched faces and slumped shoulders from other guys after Joe goes one-on-one and misses to know that it has an effect. I’ve seen the telling eye-rolls when Iso-Joe is brought up in conversation with some guys. I saw Josh get fed up at Utah and start demanding that his teammates share the ball. Last night I saw Josh bring the ball up himself a couple times and try to make passes inside, and then I heard him say (again) after the game that the Hawks need to share the ball more. Maybe he was trying to make that happen himself. When Iso-Joe (or whomever) doesn’t work, and the players get frustrated, and the home fans groan, or the road fans roar, and things go bad–I think it does have an effect beyond Woody’s (and my) bottom-line assessment of it working more often than not.
And here is where I tie Ray’s observations about defense and isos together: What you see from the Hawks isn’t always what Woody wants. After spending time watching this team at practice and shootarounds, and hearing how what Woody says from the bench plays out on the court, I think I can say that the Hawks aren’t always a very focused group.
At practices I’ve seen Woody show a guy exactly what he wants him to do against a screen-and-roll, ball reversal, or whatever, then watch that guy do it wrong 10 seconds later when the Hawks run through the situation. “Where are you going?” is a common refrain from Woody during these sessions. I’ve heard Woody repeatedly urge his guards to get the ball inside to Smoove or Al only to see them passively pass it around the perimeter. Last night against the Bucks, I heard Woody yell at Josh four times to give up the ball and get inside when he brought it up but Josh instead tried to whip passes to the post (as noted above that might be because he doesn’t want the Hawks to end up in iso).
Now please don’t take these examples and conclude that the players have tuned Woody out. That’s a big reach, and I’ve seen nothing to support that. What I’ve seen is the normal frustrations when something doesn’t work and the Hawks lose. All I’m saying is, what you see from the Hawks on offense and defense may not be what Woody wants.
– Kevin Pelton at Basketball Prospectus takes a statistical look at the 2010 free-agent class and projects that J.J. may be a risky proposition as a max salary guy as he hits his 30s. He ranks Joe at the bottom of the second-tier of potential free agents.
– I love my blog people. You care enough to come here and read my stuff and vent your frustrations about the Hawks. Like I said when I started, I respect that you care so I try to keep you coming back. Hopefully you’ve seen that I can take it when you think I’m full of it (except for maybe a bad day or two) and in fact encourage healthy disagreement. It keeps me on my toes, might make me consider something I hadn’t before and generally makes for a fuller conversation. That’s all good.
Having said that, if you come on here with some weak stuff I might send it back. If you are unreasonable, rip me for not addressing something I already have, say dumb things or try to punk me, you might get called out. Just remember it’s nothing personal. If you give it, got to take it.
But I really do love my blog people. Do you like me back? Check yes, no, or maybe. (Remember how you used to put “maybe” when you weren’t confident, to give the girl the chance to let you down easy so you could save face with your boys? I remember because I just did it last week.)
(J/K, blog people, my game is stronger than that! Well it usually is, anyway.)
– Talk amongst yourselves, Hawks fans.
MC
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373 comments Add your comment
northcyde
March 1st, 2010
10:56 pm
I agree @ Just Chill.
I was at the game last night vs Milwaukee. If any of these fans are on the board that walked out of the game at the end of regulation with the score tied . . . DON’T GO BACK TO A HAWKS GAME . . EVER!! That was the most pathetic thing I’d ever seen in my life at a sporting event.
It was barely 10 or 11,000 at the game anyway. But to literally see about 3,000 walk out of that game when JJ missed the game winning shot, was pathetic.
Good win tonight. Hawks have all of a sudden won 4 out of 5 games.
Taylor
March 1st, 2010
11:00 pm
Leaving games early is an ATL tradition. If a Braves game goes into extras people leave. Falcons OT, people leave, Hawks OT people leave.
I MUS WRITE
March 1st, 2010
11:10 pm
Dam It the one time i go to the bathroom I miss the Mario Dunk……
@AJ- The bulls have made it clear they will pursue Joe in the off season, That would be a nice line up if he lands there.
Acie law will be outta the league in two years ,Y did we draft him again.
o.O-Mac-Town -Macon, Georgia- Westsider-O.o
March 1st, 2010
11:10 pm
to JustChillFans, anybody who notices anything wrong in a serious or joking matter regarding the Hawks and calls it out “isnt a fan”
I call out everything, good and bad. To act like EVERYTHING is all good is being just as blind of a fan to act like EVERYTHING is all bad. Pot meet kettle. JustChillFans need to just chill his/herself.
This is the same person who acted like people weren’t “fans” for pointing out Bibby’s less than stellar play and then went into “where yall Bibby haters at now” after Bibby nailed back2back 3s as if that was the norm for him this year. What a load.
o.O-Mac-Town -Macon, Georgia- Westsider-O.o
March 1st, 2010
11:14 pm
It’s like a guy who’s got his a$$ handed to him alllll day playing Madden against some other guys, then he wins one game like “what what.. I TOLD YA SO!!!!!”
It just doesnt work that way. Show some consistent positive results. These are NBA players, they dont deserve praise if they stink it up 6 games out of 7 and then have 1 good game.
The Truth
March 1st, 2010
11:26 pm
Marvin should learn a valuable lesson in tonight’s win. If he would move and cut more toward the paint for easy buckets instead of moving toward the perimeter for long jumpers, he might get better results. Also I notice he played with a little attitude tonight (Hinrich must have pissed him-off). This should become his forte instead of playing like a nice “Boy” from UNC.
northcyde
March 1st, 2010
11:36 pm
Consistency:
The Hawks are 17 – 9 since the early Jan loss @ Miami
Yet, people act like the sky is falling around here.
And we’ve won 4 out of our last 5 games. May not have been pretty . . and we should’ve been on a 6 game win streak, but 4 out of 5 is decent, isn’t it?
The positive fans have to be EXTRA positive, to offset all of this BS negativity on this board, simply because the Hawks don’t play like world beaters every night or win games they have leads in.
But for any of you that walked out on the Hawks at the end regulation of that Milwaukee game, and didn’t watch the OT . . . please . . . just give your tickets to fans that actually give a (( bleep )) about the team.
And people wonder why Atlanta is called a bad sports town.
jay dubu
March 1st, 2010
11:39 pm
I have a feeling that Big Z already knows that he’s going back to Cleveland. He has to wait 30 days before rejoining them, so he’s just laying low, and enjoying the vacation.
If money were a driver for him, he would sign as soon as possible.
northcyde
March 1st, 2010
11:44 pm
Plus . . we’ve had only ONE losing streak that went beyond 2 games, the entire year ( the 4 game losing streak during the Christmas/New Year’s holiday )
That’s the mark of a good team. No . . we’re not great . . but we are good . . damn good.
Rod from College Park
March 1st, 2010
11:48 pm
“It just doesnt work that way. Show some consistent positive results. These are NBA players, they dont deserve praise if they stink it up 6 games out of 7 and then have 1 good game.”
Agreed Mactown Sometimes I think people forget that this what these guys do for a living. Imagine going to your job for a whole month and only doing a good job one or two days that month. You would be out of a job before you eyes blink. Then someone mentioned it earlier, the Hawks had the nerve to raise season ticket prices 35 to 40%. I promise I will not renew if we don’t get an NBA level small forward next year.
Wabe
March 1st, 2010
11:48 pm
Not sure if you were being sarcastic about my last post regarding the set plays or if you were really serious. But, just to clear it up, I was really being serious. I might be too blind to see us trying to execute some type of set play, but usually, JJ/JAMAL dominate the ball in an attempt to get a bucket.
As far as set plays go, I was being dead serious. Those 2 that I mentioned and then the one were J.Smith runs cross court looking like he’s going to take an entry-pass but then wraps around his guy and gets the alley thrown to him from Bibby, whose standing at the top of the key. Those are honestly the only plays that come to mind when talking about Hawks set plays.
Maybe it’s just me.
Rod from College Park
March 1st, 2010
11:55 pm
northcyde,
“But for any of you that walked out on the Hawks at the end regulation of that Milwaukee game, and didn’t watch the OT . . . please . . . just give your tickets to fans that actually give a (( bleep )) about the team.”
Tell those fans you want us to give the tickets to, to spend their hard earned money every year on a team who’s ultimate goal is to get to the playoffs and not win it all. Then maybe they will see how we feel. When people spend THEIR money, they have the right to do whatever pleases them. If they left early, maybe they has somewhere to go. This is Atlanta, not Utah, Cleveland, Milwaukee, Oklahoma City……..
Ree Roe
March 1st, 2010
11:59 pm
@ northcyde, maybe youre right. But please don’t be one of those fans who thinks everything is great when it’s not. Yes, the Hawks have started to play better ball recently and look to be primed for an extended winning streak, but there are alot of defiencies with this team that need to be expressed. I’m an optimist, but get very frustrated at times with this team. I think most of us believe this team is capable of more, but their lack of offensive identity, consistent bench play or coaching hold them back from reaching greatness.
-REEady for Roe!!!
Wabe
March 2nd, 2010
12:02 am
And The Truth, as happy as I was to see Marvin make a decent contribution tonight, I’ve learned not to get too high on the guy. He has these occasional “bleep” games, where he’s actually on the radar. But, would I take too much away from it? Not unless he comes out and duplicates it and puts this kind of performance together more consistently. And it would help if he did it against an actual SF.
I’m rooting for you Marvin, just not too confident in you. If that makes me a “Marvin-hater”, so be it. I’m just tired of seeing minutes wasted with mediocore numbers to show for it.
o.O-Mac-Town -Macon, Georgia- Westsider-O.o
March 2nd, 2010
12:05 am
Pardon some of us for wanting to see the Hawks go deep into the playoffs, and possibly contend and win a title. That’s not what real fans do. I guess we should stand around and be happy with Woodson’s abysmal coaching or some of the players not performing up to par. I guess we should just be content on being a 3-4 seed and 2nd round playoff exits.
Have you “happy go lucky” fans ever heard what some ELITE players, teams and coaches in all sports say? You have teams d4mn near perfect (which we arent close to being) with players and coaches saying like “we still have some things to work on”…..always wanting to improve, not just “settling” for things. If some of you are perfectly fine with the Hawks being a B- or B+ team thats fine but dont act like other people “arent real fans” just because they want to see the Hawks be an A+ team and arent afraid to let it be known what they feel is holding the club back from reaching that level.
northcyde
March 2nd, 2010
12:08 am
Hawks record at home in the last 2 seasons:
54 – 17 . . a 76% winning percentage
LOL . . . of course they’re going to raise ticket prices. The Hawks are not in the top 15 in ticket prices around the league, so of course they’re going to raise the price to reflect the success of the team.
Some of you fans act like this organization owes you something. The Hawks or the AJC don’t owe you or me a dang thing. They’ve put a great product on the floor that will win almost 75% of their home games.
I drive 300 miles about 5 – 10 times a season ( not including playoffs ), to see this team . . REGARDLESS of who they’re playing. And if they’re going to raise prices next year, oh well. I’ll pay to see that product.
That’s the cost of success.
northcyde
March 2nd, 2010
12:29 am
Mac-Town . what goes on this board, and with the sportswriters, is almost sinister-like. Every chance they take to take a shot at the Hawks, or Woody, or Marvin, or JJ, or anybody else that has built the foundation of this team, is done on a daily basis . . WIN or LOSE.
You would think that a fan base and these “agenda driven” sportswriters would be a little more appreciative of what this team has done so far this year. It wasn’t a single sportswriter ( especially not in Atlanta ), that thought that the Hawks would be in striking distance of the division, and a #2 seed, on March 1st.
Now that we are, the fans expect the Hawks to be this perfect team and play at an elite level ( even though most national “experts” consider us to be just as elite as Denver ).
The team is not perfect. The coach is not perfect. Our star player is not perfect. Our young players are not perfect. But you know what? They’re nowhere near as bad as people make them out to be. Not even close. It just that some of you fans are so used to whining about the Hawks, that you can’t help yourselves. Every bad loss is supposed to mark the “end of the world” for the Hawks, yet, they STILL haven’t had more than one 3-game losing streak all year.
This team is resilient as hell. The coach is definitely resilient as hell. And JJ is the most disrespected star player in Atlanta sports history.
This organization owes the fans of Atlanta NOTHING. If people can’t support the product that’s on the floor right now, then shame on them. Stay your behinds at home and let us “real fans” root for the Hawks.
northcyde
March 2nd, 2010
12:33 am
LOL . . let me stop.
Me ranting on this board isn’t going to change a thing with the people that are used to hating on this team. I’ll just go back to supporting this team, our players, and our coach, until we play our final game in the playoffs.
I meant the “ASG”, not the “AJC” on that 2nd post. The ASG don’t owe Hawk fans a dang thing, seeing that they’ve put a very good product on the floor.
o.O-Mac-Town -Macon, Georgia- Westsider-O.o
March 2nd, 2010
12:45 am
Northcyde, I think you are confusing and combining different types of “fans”
Is a man NON-SUPPORTIVE of his B+ grade having son, just because he stays on his rear and wants him to get that A+ ????? That makes him NON-SUPPORTIVE? Heck NO!
At times a bit too hard on the kid??? maybe. NON-SUPPORTIVE??? Nah!!! If anything, it’s maximum support.
Us fans who REALLY want the Hawks to get to that A+ level dont go around saying that you people who settle for B level basketball “arent real fans” simply for settling for less…..so dont say we arent real fans simply for demanding and wanting EXCELLENCE.
Now I know why you happy go lucky fans are so supportive of Woodson, you would be horrible coaches as well with that mentality.
northcyde
March 2nd, 2010
1:19 am
Tell those fans you want us to give the tickets to, to spend their hard earned money every year on a team who’s ultimate goal is to get to the playoffs and not win it all. Then maybe they will see how we feel. When people spend THEIR money, they have the right to do whatever pleases them. If they left early, maybe they has somewhere to go. This is Atlanta, not Utah, Cleveland, Milwaukee, Oklahoma City……..
Rod . . . you and I know EXACTLY what that “walk-out” was about. Those same people probably were “disgusted” that the Milwaukee Bucks were even that close to begin with, even if they were on a 6 game win streak. They were also probably mad at JJ for missing all of those shots up to that point. Most of all, they’d just seen the Hawks blow a lead vs Dallas, and come out completely flat in the OT to lose the game.
That’s why they walked out before the game was over. They already had it in their minds that the Hawks were going to lose.
We’re talking a Sunday night . . around 8:30 PM, when JJ missed that shot. Those fans didn’t have anything to do or a place to go. They just had it in their mind that Milwaukee was going to beat us once OT got here . . . just like Dallas did.
When the Bucks went up by 5 to begin the OT, about another 1,000 fans left. At the end of the game, it was only about 7,000 of us in that arena, ( us and the kids ) LOYALLY CHEERING our Hawks, who had taken care of business. JJ, after the horrible 3.5 quarters of play, scored 9 tough OT points and led us to victory.
Props goes out to the kids at that game. They get mad too when the Hawks don’t play well. But at least the kids are LOYAL. You’ll NEVER see then walk out on this team, like they’re the Nets or somebody.
That “walk-out” was PATHETIC on just about every level. No justification for that whatsoever.
And you’re right. That IS Atlanta, and definitely not Cleveland, or Utah, or Oklahoma City, or Milwaukee. Because their fans wouldn’t dare do something like that, with their team fighting to win a game. You’d never see that in those cities.
Big Ray
March 2nd, 2010
1:35 am
Glad to get another road win.
Nice to see most of us up to what we’re usually up to:
Bashing players that performed well, and bashing each other in general.
northcyde
March 2nd, 2010
1:46 am
Mac . . the people who want “A+ basketball” will always have something to complain about. And that’s the point. No matter how well this team plays, or if they have to grind out a win, those “A+ wanting fans” will always whine and complain about something. It never fails.
If I’d view the team as the the “A+ wanting fans”, instead of simply accepting the flaws of this team and the limitations of these players, I’d think that the Hawks were a below .500 squad.
- JJ is constantly disrespected by Hawk fans and the sportswriters in ATL,despite being a 4-time All-Star, and having one of his best years as a Hawk.
- Woody is constantly bashed as being “dumb and stupid”, despite him being 95 – 65 ( 59.4% winning percentage ) in his last 160 games as the Hawks coach.
- Smoove, while he’s being loved right now, will be called a “low IQ player” as soon as has a bad game.
- Marvin will ALWAYS be bashed, regardless of how he plays, because he isn’t Chris Paul.
I’ve said that if Woody doesn’t get us to the NBA Finals, some of you will still want him fired, regardless of how we play in the playoffs. That’s a given. The same goes for JJ, if he’s not playing like a superstar ( even though people get mad when he actually tries to play like a superstar ).
People aren’t beyond criticism. But the criticism on here is “agenda driven”, from the fans, to the sportswriters.
Everything isn’t “rosy” . . but I be dang if we have a bunch of “dead roses” lying around either. This is a very good team that still has its ups and downs.
Fortunately for us, the ups occur far more frequently than the downs.
It is what it is on this board though.
Alien in ATL
March 2nd, 2010
2:20 pm
Northcyde – I couldn’t agree with you more! Well said!