Hawks at Bulls, AKA Big Ray and Woody’s Way
Salmons saw too much Iso-Joe. (Gregory Smith, AP)
Big Ray brings the funk today with strong takes on iso and D. They are seemingly unrelated topics but I’m going to tie them together after taking a look at what he’s saying.
Ray observes that “the Hawks don’t seem to buy into the defensive precepts of Mike Woodson anymore.”
What happened? A team once known for getting wins by playing a suffocating defense, now finds itself as one of the more defensively inept teams in the league. Hawks commentator Bob (
RathburnRathbun) noted that Atlanta is in the bottom third of the League in defense. Why? Is the defensive concept an issue? Are the players not listening to the coaching staff? Can it really be attributed fully to one or the other, or (solely) to any other theory?
First, let me say the Hawks aren’t quite that bad on D. If Rathburn Rathbun was referring to points allowed per game, the Hawks actually rank 12th at 97.3. I prefer to look at efficiency (points allowed per 100 possessions), where the Hawks rank 13th at 103.8. They finished last season ranked 11th at 104.6.
(Edit: Rathbun emailed me: “I referenced on the air our field goal percentage defense. We finished FEB 25th in the league in FG% defense (.479).” What he didn’t say is I butchered his name twice. My bad.)
But the point stands that the Hawks just don’t seem to be defending as well lately. And it is weird since Woody is all about D. Ray ponders whether the concepts are the issue, and from what I’ve seen one big problem with the switching D is the Hawks sometimes are waaaaay too slow to help when there’s a mismatch in the post or on the perimeter. Pat Riley calls it “pulling triggers” when player are really scrambling and reacting with every pass and teammates are covering for each other. Riley pounded “pulling triggers” into his team’s psyche so much that it’s part of the Heat culture, and if players didn’t buy into it they didn’t play (that’s one reason Beasley, for all his offensive talents, has come along slowly there). “We weren’t pulling triggers tonight” was a common quote from Heat players after a bad defensive outing.
I just haven’t seen that kind of intensity and commitment from the Hawks lately. Recently Woody said the Hawks might think they can just outscore opponents. And usually that might be true but these poor fourth quarters lately show the danger in that approach. Which brings us to isos. Ray says: “Iso-Joe (j)ust really isn’t the issue. Oh sure, it’s a hot button topic if you’re focused on who you want to blame for stagnant offense or a loss. As stated by folks like Niremetal . . . the Hawks run a series of ISO plays.”
I’ve seen some of my blog people say Woody only runs isos. That’s not true, of course. The Hawks have other plays but Ray is so on point when he says those plays end up in iso because the Hawks just aren’t very persistent in running their sets to completion or resetting when option No. 1 isn’t there. It’s part of the problem I’ve had with tracking Iso-Joes: If he gets a screen, gets doubled, backs it out and goes one-on-one for the last 18 seconds, is it an iso? I’d say yes, but technically it wasn’t the play.
But the Hawks do tend to go iso-heavy late in games, especially lately. I think Ray is a little bit too dismissive of Iso-Joe as an issue. So was I when I first got on the beat because I figured that it works most of the time so it’s a good thing (and I still think that to a certain extent). But the part I underestimated is the psychological effect Iso-Joe can have on the team when it doesn’t work.
I’ve seen enough scrunched faces and slumped shoulders from other guys after Joe goes one-on-one and misses to know that it has an effect. I’ve seen the telling eye-rolls when Iso-Joe is brought up in conversation with some guys. I saw Josh get fed up at Utah and start demanding that his teammates share the ball. Last night I saw Josh bring the ball up himself a couple times and try to make passes inside, and then I heard him say (again) after the game that the Hawks need to share the ball more. Maybe he was trying to make that happen himself. When Iso-Joe (or whomever) doesn’t work, and the players get frustrated, and the home fans groan, or the road fans roar, and things go bad–I think it does have an effect beyond Woody’s (and my) bottom-line assessment of it working more often than not.
And here is where I tie Ray’s observations about defense and isos together: What you see from the Hawks isn’t always what Woody wants. After spending time watching this team at practice and shootarounds, and hearing how what Woody says from the bench plays out on the court, I think I can say that the Hawks aren’t always a very focused group.
At practices I’ve seen Woody show a guy exactly what he wants him to do against a screen-and-roll, ball reversal, or whatever, then watch that guy do it wrong 10 seconds later when the Hawks run through the situation. “Where are you going?” is a common refrain from Woody during these sessions. I’ve heard Woody repeatedly urge his guards to get the ball inside to Smoove or Al only to see them passively pass it around the perimeter. Last night against the Bucks, I heard Woody yell at Josh four times to give up the ball and get inside when he brought it up but Josh instead tried to whip passes to the post (as noted above that might be because he doesn’t want the Hawks to end up in iso).
Now please don’t take these examples and conclude that the players have tuned Woody out. That’s a big reach, and I’ve seen nothing to support that. What I’ve seen is the normal frustrations when something doesn’t work and the Hawks lose. All I’m saying is, what you see from the Hawks on offense and defense may not be what Woody wants.
– Kevin Pelton at Basketball Prospectus takes a statistical look at the 2010 free-agent class and projects that J.J. may be a risky proposition as a max salary guy as he hits his 30s. He ranks Joe at the bottom of the second-tier of potential free agents.
– I love my blog people. You care enough to come here and read my stuff and vent your frustrations about the Hawks. Like I said when I started, I respect that you care so I try to keep you coming back. Hopefully you’ve seen that I can take it when you think I’m full of it (except for maybe a bad day or two) and in fact encourage healthy disagreement. It keeps me on my toes, might make me consider something I hadn’t before and generally makes for a fuller conversation. That’s all good.
Having said that, if you come on here with some weak stuff I might send it back. If you are unreasonable, rip me for not addressing something I already have, say dumb things or try to punk me, you might get called out. Just remember it’s nothing personal. If you give it, got to take it.
But I really do love my blog people. Do you like me back? Check yes, no, or maybe. (Remember how you used to put “maybe” when you weren’t confident, to give the girl the chance to let you down easy so you could save face with your boys? I remember because I just did it last week.)
(J/K, blog people, my game is stronger than that! Well it usually is, anyway.)
– Talk amongst yourselves, Hawks fans.
MC
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373 comments Add your comment
clarkekent
March 1st, 2010
5:55 pm
G-money -
woody will ever play 10-11 guys.. this team should be 8 to 9 players deep but woody will not play his bench .. his job is on the line and this team has to have a strong showing for him to keep his job. he is our doug collins(CHI).. he got us as far as he is going to take us. they brought in phl jackson… DET had Rick Carlisle and brought in larry brown. teague and joe smith should be playing much more than they play… our bench is ZAZA and crawford.. that is it! And that is all you will see. maybe 5 mins for teague and joe smith if we have a lead.
Astro Joe
March 1st, 2010
5:57 pm
The Truth… LOL!
Speaking of money issues, did we ever find out of if Belkin made his payment of $2.5M?
What really sucks is when you consider that Sund was able to obtain a $2M cash payment in the Andersen trade over the summer… and yet we could only afford 13 players during the bulk of the year.
bigdave
March 1st, 2010
6:03 pm
Stro Joe..
co-sign your 5:42
rob
March 1st, 2010
6:11 pm
im ready to see hat they do against Chicago tonight. Tonite is a must win we need to get a win streek going. The hawks are avereraging 97.7 since Jan 1. Its a direct reflection of Jamal not lighting it up lately. I have said it before, when Jamal was consistent scoring 20 plus, all of these defiencies were not noticeable. Now that he is average, all our problems come to light. Remember earlier in the year, the Portland game on the road? Sactown? Jamal was scoring at an unbeleivable clip. Game winner vs Suns, meaningful minutes vs Boston all 4 times. I know that is not the only problem, but it helped when he was going off. I hope he catches fire again
The Truth
March 1st, 2010
6:15 pm
AJ
Good point, regarding the 2M cash, it does sucks; I wondered that same thing. If their reported losses are valid, perhaps that 2M cash is the only profit for the year. Since I’m not in a real bullish ASG mood these days; I DOUBT IT.
Maybe the Belkin question you raise would be a good project for MC to innvestigate.
doc
March 1st, 2010
6:16 pm
aj neither of us are betting men. heh heh so i guess the argument could stop there …. but it wont.
but before you jump in with your money where your mouth is thinking it is a sure bet you might want to read and weep on this one. the crow might be tough:
http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm
Ken Strickland
March 1st, 2010
6:22 pm
ISO’s are good when you have a matchup advantage you can exploit, but one man pounding the ball for 10-15 seconds to beat double/triple teams isn’t a matchup advantage. If a HC can’t get his players to listen to his pleas to play DEF, run the OFF, push the ball, create ball movement, or pass it inside to your Bigs, especially at this late point in the season, then it’s time to get a new HC.
JObJO
March 1st, 2010
6:22 pm
I wuz watching the lakers nuggets game yesterday. late in the game denver had a time out with a camera in the huddle and Karl went on and on about not taking quick shots and passing the ball and trusting your teammate even if you have a shot clock violation in order to make the defense work. Karl was in his players faces and challenging them to do the right thing. After the time out Billips came down and immediately threw up a three [got fouled and shot freethrows]. then came down the next several possessions at blatantly failed to do what Karl had implored. moral of the story is……player play, coaches watch.
clarkekent
March 1st, 2010
6:30 pm
JObJO-
Billups has a ring… joe johnson don’t
A Hawks Fan
March 1st, 2010
6:33 pm
Clarkekent, that’s not an argument for taking or not taking quick shots. Lebron does not have a ring either….so what?
The Truth
March 1st, 2010
6:49 pm
Once the players learned Woody’s structured rotation routine, then it doesn’t matter what they do or don’t do on the court. Their playing minutes are lock-in and set mostly every game. Woody is creating a culture of disobedience amongst his players. By only screaming at the rookie Teague, the veterans seem to get a pass.
Astro Joe
March 1st, 2010
7:00 pm
doc, I prefer salt and butter with my crow.
Seriously, i didn;t think we were talking “game winning shots” just iso plays in general. We’ll have a pretzel vs. popcorn stand-off on this one. And much like too much salt on either snack food isn’t good for you, too many iso-Joes and too many Josh 3s are bad for our health.
70 minutes to POPCORN time.. I may even enjoy it with one less shake of the salt contianer… in honor of my buudy the doc.
northcyde
March 1st, 2010
7:06 pm
Truth . . do you really want Woody pulling JJ and putting Evans into a game, simply to prove a point to JJ about his ineffective play? Or insert Joe Smith into a game in the 4th quarter, because Smoove made a bad play? You don’t do that to your best players on the team. You’ll hurt the entire team if you did that . . and pizz off your star(s).
LOL . . I can see Phil Jackson now . . pulling Kobe to put in Shannon Brown, because Kobe took an ill-advised shot.
Is that what people really want around here?
***************
Those bench players are just SORRY.
Joe Smith could barely get on the court last year during the playoffs in Cleveland, yet, some on here think he should get MORE time here? He’s a sub 40% FG shooting PF. People do realize that, right? And his defense isn’t great either. Matter of fact, as a frontline, Zaza and Joe Smith are pretty bad. They do rebound though ( Zaza his own misses, and Joe Smith on the defensive end )
Zaza is a sub 50% FG shooting center ( which is horrible )
Teague is a 35% FG shooting PG ( which is horrible )
Evans isn’t horrible . . he’s just nowhere near as efficient as he was last year. And I remember people literally BLASTING into Mo Evans for his play in the playoffs last year. It’s not like these guy are going to get better with increased playing time. The only one that MIGHT get better, is Teague. And even he would have to significantly improve to justify more playing time.
This team is what it is.
Josh Childress isn’t walking through that door.folks. Spud Webb isn’t walking through that door.
tyger
March 1st, 2010
7:11 pm
Hawks punch drunk…
Month of February has been brutal, despite a 7-5 record that kept the Hawks treading water. A win is a win, but they sure have been ugly and don’t say alot about our playoff chances.
The Big Z wet dream is over, a meaningless smokescreen for those of lil’ pockets. Better target would’ve been Drew Gooden, but looks like LAC can use him. He would bring low post toughness and scoring we’ll need later but…u know the story.
Scrappy ain’t gonna get it…in Feb. we lost to the Thunder, got blown out by the Magic and Heat, outclassed by the Suns and Warriors, despite an 18 pt. lead, caught hell from the Twolves and Bucks….that ain’t how contenders do it.
Yes, a win is a win, but we’re still where we were at the beginning of the year – a couple pieces away.
doc
March 1st, 2010
7:16 pm
aj,someone will come up with the stat of interest like shooting percentage for fourth quarter which may get as close as it gets but i was talking about rather having the ball maybe in josh’s hands instead of jj’s hands for important shots down the stretch. didnt josh make one recently, as well as a miss?
i like ball distribution maybe woody likes to keep it on the ground so to speak and grind it out like a football coach preferring the three yards and a cloud of dust over even the simplest of passes. maybe he thinks the fewer the passes the better the odds of getting a shot. me, i think it may get you a shot but a poor one and havent we seen that enough? again woody doesnt seem to have confidence in his guys down the wire.
is it the favorite kind of lorenzen tonight?
nice analogy as well, chuckled hard on that one.
Scoop
March 1st, 2010
7:18 pm
Good stuff MC,
Ill say it again our problem on D isnt the philosophy but our quickness on the perimeter, especially on the pick & roll. Joe and biby and even crawford are too slow laterally to guard quick guards like the one were playing tonight in D Rose.
I think an answer that solves multiple issues is to start Mo Evans over Marvin. That would give us more quickness defensivelyand allow Marvin to get more touches with the 2nd unit.
Let me know what you think MC.
Jody
March 1st, 2010
7:35 pm
I hope Smoove keeps up the good play tonight. The Hawks are going to need it against Chicago. I thought he did a great job from the 2:38 mark on in the 4th quarter last night of shutting down John Salmons.
northcyde
March 1st, 2010
7:38 pm
You start Mo Evans, and you’ll have a situation like you had in the 2009 playoffs. I guess people have forgotten that though.
It’s not like Mo is playing well enough to start over Marvin. And Marvin has been playing with the 2nd unit all year, but has been ineffective. You definitely don’t start flipping the minutes of Mo Evans and Marvin Williams. Even if Marvin was benched, you play him major minutes, and definitely more minutes than Mo.
I hope Woody doesn’t read the blogs or listen to the commentators and/or talking heads. He simply needs to coach this team the way HE wants to coach him. Not how everyone else wants them to be coached . . including me. He knows this personnel better than any fan or sportswriter out there. He knows what guys are doing in practice, and what guys aren’t doing.
The crazy thing is . . if we win tonight, we’ve won 4 of our last 5 games. Lose tonight, and we’ve lost 4 of our last 7. We’re a Dallas collapse from having a 4 game win streak right now. So a win tonight would be big. A loss just keep the talk going about what is wrong with this team.
The team doesn’t play perfect. Nowhere near perfect. They simply play like the Hawks. George Karl has the same problems with his squad that we do with ours . . . CONSISTENCY.
It may be frustrating to watch at times, but they’re going to win more often than not. And both teams will be a factor during playoff time.
Grandad
March 1st, 2010
7:41 pm
Michael Cunningham:
Thanks for the quick turnaround on my query to Mr. Wdsn.
Please don’t be angry if I am disgusted by his answer.
I wonder about the man sometimes?[Joe & Jamal can get their own shot]
*His [so-called] philosophy] does not address:
1. Making the def. play both sides of the floor!
2. Using Hi/Lo to take away help
3. Getting Joe open in better spots so he doesn’t have to work so hard.
4. Ditto – Josh and Al.
5. Perhaps having an inside out ‘philosophy’. There’s that word again.
6. Actually having a zone offense – concept.
7. Using a quick point guard to [*penetrate]slash and kick, etc.
* [Teague]
8. Spacing/player movement/getting shots in rhythm/etc./etc./etc.
I look forward to reading Wdsn’s book on offense when it comes out.
I realize, this post was not fair to you because I asked a question,
you followed through, he answered and I made sport of his answer. To you, Michael, I apologize.
Sautee
March 1st, 2010
7:54 pm
My biggest problem with ISO’s is this: If you give the ball to a single player (not just Joe) and have them go one-on-one (or one-on-two) then you are not only allowing the opponent to basically rest 2 to 3 players, but you are NOT involving the rest of the team. Every basketball player alive wants to be involved in the game. If you set a couple of screens then the screeners feel like they were involved in helping the team score. Do you think anybody but the shooter feels that way after ISO’s?
I can see it IF you are exploiting a mismatch, but too much of it and the other players start getting antsy. And apparently rolling their eyes.
I said in the offseason that the lack of touches by the frontcourt was a potential chemistry problem. The more games we lose, and the more ISO’s we run, the closer that reality looms.
O'Brien
March 1st, 2010
7:55 pm
doc,
I checked 82games.com and found players FG% in the 4th quarter LAST SEASON.
JJ – 43%, Josh – 51%, Bibby – 39%,
Horford – 62%, Marvin – 42%
Unfortunately, I couldnt find this year’s 4thQ FG% numbers.
northcyde,
I agree that our bench is weak, especially compared to the other big spenders. But during the offseason, do you think Sund is going to let Woody use it as an excuse if the starters falter down the stretch or in the playoffs?
Grandad,
Woody’s philosophy when it comes to isos may not be that different from other coaches. The main difference is how we execute.
bigdave
March 1st, 2010
8:05 pm
lets get it..
Ree Roe
March 1st, 2010
8:11 pm
Deng is questionable for tonight. Noah is out.
Big game tonight against another possible first round opponent. D. Rose is coming off a knee bruise he suffered Sat night in Indy so we’ll see how effective he is early on. If we can win tonight we’ve got a good stretch of games coming up.
@ CHI
PHI
GS
@ MIA
@ NY
@ WAS
DET
@ NJ
Interesting fact: Hawks are 1-3 in the first game of each month.
-REEalize I’m Roe!!!
northcyde
March 1st, 2010
8:11 pm
O’Brien . . . I’m already content with the fact that it will be our starters who will determine if we live or die in the playoffs. I’m not jaded about all of this “develop the sorry bench” talk one bit, because I know where the strength of our team lies. Woody is definitely content with living and dying by the starters. I personally have no problem with that.
Remember 2 years ago? When people was mad at Woody for playing 7 guys in order to make the playoffs? People were crying about Acie and Solo and Salim not playing back then. But Woody definitely did the right thing in reducing that rotation, in order for us to make the playoffs.
So if he decides to go with just Crawford, and 2 other people off the bench, I have no problem with that. Those bench guys have done nothing but put us in holes all year, yet, people want them to play more?
And no . . Sund isn’t going to let Woody use that as an excuse if we happen to look bad in the playoffs. A first round exit means that he’s probably gets fired, regardless of the circumstances. A second round exit in which we lose in 4 or 5 games, probably means he gets fired.
But if we take a team to 7 games, and lose Game 7 in a competitive manner, he should get a new contract.
Hawk fans hate Woody because they don’t like how he manages the team. But these days, it’s not about how good you look . . it’s about if you WIN. And Woody has done a lot of winning since the acquisition of Mike Bibby. LOL . . these fans better get used to 3 or so more years of Woody . . whether they hate him or not.
No Deng or Noah tonight . . . let’s see if Horford and Marvin can be active tonight.
northcyde
March 1st, 2010
8:15 pm
5 quick for Bibby . . good start for him. We’re a different team when he’s making shots, because you have to guard everybody.
The Truth
March 1st, 2010
8:15 pm
northcyde
We’re not talking about “ineffective play”. We’re talking about a scenario where a player (JJ included) insists on doing the opposite of the coach’s instructions. Yes pull them if they insist on disrespecting their boss. However, this example may be a stretch for players like JJ (as with most of the star players Kobe included) since he has not shown those behavior tendencies. Early in Josh Smith career for example, I can remember occasions when Woody would pull him out of a game if he went off on the deep-in. In general, because of Woody’s growing relationship with his players, he is growing softer and softer with them. This is a common trap as to why many coaches ultimately get fired.
Taylor
March 1st, 2010
8:17 pm
Marvin sucks so bad
Taylor
March 1st, 2010
8:18 pm
Smooove!!!!!
Wabe
March 1st, 2010
8:19 pm
That was a monster slam by J.Smith.
Sautee
March 1st, 2010
8:20 pm
Boy, that looked bad. Rose at the very least hyperextended his right knee. Maybe worse.
That’s awful for the Bulls if it’s a tear. I hate seeing him beat us but I LOVE watching him play.
Taylor
March 1st, 2010
8:22 pm
I’m thinking rose and bibby just banged knees
Taylor
March 1st, 2010
8:23 pm
Marvin with the lucky score
Wabe
March 1st, 2010
8:24 pm
J.Smith dominating.
northcyde
March 1st, 2010
8:26 pm
OK . . we’re up 9 . . watch and see if the Bench can maintain this lead, when Woody starts subbing people out
Sautee
March 1st, 2010
8:26 pm
Taylor,
I hope you are right but the replay looked like his right knee buckled.
Ree Roe
March 1st, 2010
8:28 pm
WGN HD>>>>Fox Sports South and it’s faster. WGN is real time…FSS is like a tape delay it’s so slow. Guys are attacking early on, good sign.
-REEspond to Roe!!!
J.J.M.
March 1st, 2010
8:29 pm
man marvin sucks
terrell
March 1st, 2010
8:29 pm
Marvin has got to hit some of those open looks.
rob
March 1st, 2010
8:30 pm
marvin def needs to make open looks, and rebound
Taylor
March 1st, 2010
8:33 pm
Knew rose would be back
J.J.M.
March 1st, 2010
8:33 pm
lmao@joe what was that
terrell
March 1st, 2010
8:33 pm
Did Acie speak to Woody before the game? lol!
BONE
March 1st, 2010
8:34 pm
Why hasn’t Teague gotten any mins? stop wearing people out woody
J.J.M.
March 1st, 2010
8:35 pm
yooo zaza needs 2 hit the gym early and work on his shot
Sautee
March 1st, 2010
8:35 pm
Lovely spin and teardrop by Joe.
BONE
March 1st, 2010
8:35 pm
Acie should punch woody in the face
northcyde
March 1st, 2010
8:35 pm
@ The Truth:
Woody trusts JJ unconditionally. He’s made enough good plays for us and makes enough tough shots, so that he wouldn’t get pulled in that situation. I think the same may go for any star player on a team.
Even with Smoove, back in the day, it’s not like we could sub in a quality player in place of him. On the few occasions that Woody did try to discipline Smoove, he’d have to get him right back in there because Solo or Shelden or Lorenzen Wright would play sorry.
You instruct those guys what you want to do via the sideline, or during timeouts.
With a young guy like Teague, he’s not going to be treated the same . . nor should he. He’s a rookie. When he keeps making the same mistakes over and over again, and you have more experienced and talented players playing in front of him, he’s not going to have much room for error. Now if Crawford wasn’t on the team, Woody would have no choice but to let him play through his mistakes.
rob
March 1st, 2010
8:36 pm
woody played Joe Johnson the whole first quarter. wow
northcyde
March 1st, 2010
8:37 pm
Acie should punch himself in the face. He’s the one who has created his own situation, by not making jumpshots and not defending like he should. If he can’t beat out Flip Murray, he shouldn’t be playing in the first place.
Astro Joe
March 1st, 2010
8:37 pm
I can’t wait for Acie to show Woody how much he can do after spending time with 3 different coaches in 4 months.