Hawks Squawks: Hawks 105, Jazz 100
Salt Lake City–Forget that Deron Williams and Andrei Kirilenko sat out with injuries for the Jazz. Remember that the Jazz had won 17 of 19, the Hawks had lost 15 straight in Utah and of course they were coming off that debacle at Golden State on Sunday night.
– “It’s big, especially with that long flight home,” Jamal said. “You don’t want to be sitting there thinking about a loss the whole time.”
– The Hawks showed resiliency in winning this one. They were down 85-79 and 95-94 but lots of guys made plays: Al (that blocked shot to stop a fastbreak layup), J.J. (that 3-pointer from the corner and a fadeaway jumper), Josh (blocked shot) and Crawford (the steal and two free throws).
– The Hawks went 2-2 on the trip. “It was a big win after an upsetting loss last night,” Bibby said. “We could have won 3 of 4 but .500 is pretty good.”
– Blowing that 18-point lead at Golden State tested the Hawks’ mettle. “After last night we could have folded it in,” Al said. “Especially with the last game of the road trip, we could have just came out with no focus.”
– “We did a good job of staying together when times got tough,” Bibby said.
– The Hawks came back from deficits in the second and fourth quarters. There wasn’t much of the panicked play that marred the end of the Warriors game. “I thought we were very composed tonight in the fourth quarter when we got down,” J.J. said. “We were able to not get rattled and made a run of our own.”
– The Hawks last won here on Feb. 13, 1993. “‘93? I was 15,” Bibby said.
– ‘Nique was in uniform that night. “I didn’t even realize that until today,” ‘he said. “Like I told them, records are made to be broken.”
– ‘Nique scored 43 points to beat the Jazz back then. “We had three ‘bigs’ hurt and I had to play power forward,” he said.
– J.J. poured in 28 to finally beat the Jazz again. “It fells great, man,” he said. “It’s been along time since the Hawks won in this building.”
– It wasn’t easy. The Jazz still gave a spirited effort and Energy Solutions Center is notorious as a tough place to play. “You saw the guy waving the little umbrella when I was shooting free throws?” Josh said. “They get under your skin, I’m not even going to lie. You can hear them. They are right there. They don’t stop the whole game. I’m glad I only have to play here once a year.”
– Marvin kept the Hawks in it early. Then Woody went to his bench. He got nothing until Mo gave the defense a lift and Jamal (4 of 8 on 3s) started making shots. “That was a total team effort by everybody who played,” Woody said. “That’s what we need the rest of the way.”
– After the offense bogged down in the third quarter, Smoove spoke up. “He kept harping on us to share the ball, share the ball and make it easier for each other” Al said.
– “I just noticed that we were passing the ball one time and taking a shot,” Josh said. “They were catching our misses and getting out on the break.”
– It was redemption of sorts for Jamal, whose technical foul late at Golden State was costly. It was awful timing for only his fourth career technical. “I rarely lose my composure,” he said. “I’ll take the blame for that loss. When good things happen I get credit so I’ve got to take blame when things go bad.”
– That and everything else about the Oakland meltdown was easier to forget after this rare W at Utah. “Yesterday was yesterday,” J.J. said. “We pulled together and got this one. That’s how we’ve got to think. That’s got to be our mentality: Whatever happened yesterday is yesterday.”
– I’m out, Hawks fans.
MC
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276 comments Add your comment
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2010
6:51 pm
Mark Eaton?
Jody
February 23rd, 2010
6:51 pm
KevinA,
You’ve got a pont. It would be a shame if the Hawks signed Big Z and Woody gave him the bench treatment. Still, it’s very telling that Horford would more than welcome him on the team and how playing the 4 a little more would be easier for him. Sometimes I think folks don’t understand just how hard both Al and Josh have to work everynight against bigger opponents. Also, I think Josh could play some three. I really don’t think it matters what forward spot Josh plays. When he attacks the basket, he’s succesful and I’ve watched as he done that to alot of players this year, not just power forwards.
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2010
6:51 pm
Jeff Hornacek?
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2010
6:51 pm
Felton Spencer?
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2010
6:52 pm
Matt Harpring?
Astro Joe
February 23rd, 2010
6:52 pm
Byron Russell?
KevinA
February 23rd, 2010
7:11 pm
Jody
Al would be like a kid in a candy store with Big Z. If he pulled the centers from the paint Al would have the advantage in rebounding. Cosign Al and Josh fighting and it being tough. Thinking of Big Z pulling centers out of the paint. We should try this with Al more. His range has improved.
When we are playing big teams It would be a good experment to try
Joe, Jamal/Evans, Josh, Al and ZaZa. Why not go big.
niremetal
February 23rd, 2010
7:21 pm
Sautee,
You’re right re:Wade. For some reason, I saw “DHoward” and thought “DWade.” Maybe it’s because for most people, Wade is a lock as a top 5 player, and I leap at any chance to say “NO” to that. My bad
Jody
February 23rd, 2010
7:25 pm
KevinA,
I agree with you totally. The Hawks have got to do something different against big teams.
Hawks Fan In Jax
February 23rd, 2010
7:31 pm
Don’t look now but Toronto is only 4 games behind the Hawks, so fellas u better play strong down the stretch or see that 1st rd home advantage gone
KevinA
February 23rd, 2010
7:54 pm
Toronto has a pretty tough schedule coming up. If we win the games were supposed to and split the rest we will be ok. There should be room for 17-20 wins left.
O'Brien
February 23rd, 2010
8:08 pm
When mentioned as a PF, this was Horford’s quotes;
“I’d be a lot more comfortable,” Horford said. “That’s a position that I’d play with more guys my size. It would come easier for me.”
I am fine with Horford at Center and Josh at PF. I just hope we get a better backup Center than ZaZa (I dont know how or when).
“Still, the Hawks intend to at least make a pitch to Ilgauskas. They have their midlevel exception ($5.9 million) available – in addition to their biannual ($2.1 million) and veteran ($1.3 million) exceptions – though it is unknown how much they are willing to spend.”
It would have been nice to see the Hawks spend some more money on their bench this offseason. With the mid-level and the bi-annual, we could have gotten 2 more bench players, and maybe not needing Mario or Collins.
Sautee
February 23rd, 2010
8:10 pm
nire,
I’m right there with you on Wade.
Missed a few
February 23rd, 2010
8:13 pm
My short list of deserving max players:
Kobe, LeBron, KG, Duncan, DHoward.
Dirk, Nash, Durant, Wade, Bosh, CP3, DW, Pau Gasal
Melvin
February 23rd, 2010
8:32 pm
O’brien,
Cosign your last post. I made that point a week or two ago. Had the Hawks use their exception(s) this past summer they could have possibly given them contracts/bodies to use as trade pieces during the deadline period.
O'Brien
February 23rd, 2010
10:03 pm
Melvin,
I think the Hawks just wanted to spend as little money as possible this past offseason, for 2 reasons. 1) They have to resign JJ 2) They just dont have the money like some of these other teams.
Legler and Mashburn just had a discussion on NBA fastbreak. The question was which team in the East can challenge the Cavs (Magic, Celtics or Hawks).
Mashburn said he likes the Hawks because of the toughness of JJ and Woody, and with JJ and Crawford, they’re a difficult matchup.
Legler likes the Magic. He said he does not like the Hawks because they are .500 since December, and they had that horrible road loss at Golden State. Basically, they are too inconsistent for a team that is trying to get to the next level, and .500 ball over a 2 month stretch is inexcusable, Tim said.
Jason
February 23rd, 2010
10:37 pm
O’Brien,
I saw the exchange on NBA Coast to Coast. The problem with Legler’s comment is the three teams have almost the same record since December. The Hawks are 14-10, the Celtics are 13-11,and the Magic are 15-11. So if it is inexcusable for the Hawks, it must be inexcusable for the Celtics and Magic, also.
Ken Strickland
February 23rd, 2010
11:09 pm
ASTRO JOE-the same HC that did such a sorry job of coaching against the Suns and Warriors. HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN ALREADY? Remember, even a blind squirrel will occasionally find an acorn. This team needs CONSISTENCY, and we’re not getting it from Woodson, unless you consider the consistency of his inconsistency.
Ken Strickland
February 23rd, 2010
11:37 pm
We’re 2-4 over the last 5gms. Over those same 5gms, PG MBibby has averaged 31MPG, 4.6APG & 6PPG. Over the last 4gms he’s averaged 29.5MPG, 4.25APG & 4.5PPG. Teague on the other hand has played in only 4 of the last 5 and has averaged 9.75MPG, 2APG & 2PPG. Despite very weak efforts by some BIBBY LOVERS to make it appear he’s actually doing something, the truth is he’s become a waste of good mins.
But I don’t blame Bibby, because he’s not forcing himself to play all of those mins, and he’s not forcing Teague to try and contribute while receiving limited, inconsistent mins and little support from his HC. IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE WHO THINKS TEAGUE COULDN’T IMPROVE UPON BIBBY’S EXTREMELY POOR OVERALL PERFORMANCE IF GIVEN HIS MINS? IF YOU’VE NOTICED, I DIDN’T EVEN MENTION THE HANDS DOWN IMPROVEMENT WE’D GET ON DEF WITH TEAGUE.
Bibby’s entire gm has deteriated, and Woodson is allowing him to take the team down with him. Look at all of the other teams that are getting solid production from their starting rookie PG’s. Also, look at the teams with solid starting vet PG’s that are still getting solid production from their rookie or D-league backup PG’s.
We have 27gms left in the regular season, and we have a rookie PG that still gets limited, inconsistent mins and little support for his HC. We have his distractors who are fine with it because they claim he’s not ready. We also have a starting vet PG that has become the NBA’s slowest, most one dimensional and none productive starting PG, and getting worse.
niremetal
February 23rd, 2010
11:47 pm
Actually, Ken, every advanced breakdown of the team’s stats confirms what most people around here see: Jeff Teague is a godawful defender right now. Worse than Bibby, in fact. I know you will foam at the mouth at the concept that anyone could be worse than Bibby on D, but JT0 is just lost on defense right now. He doesn’t move his feet, doesn’t deny penetration, gives up too easily when he gets beat, and doesn’t even funnel opposing player to the help. The team stats bear that out. In fact the team is 7.2 points per 100 possessions better with Bibby on the floor than when he’s off (ie they give up 7.2 fewer pp100) and 2.6 points worse with Teague on the floor.
The box score stats might say Teague gets more steals than Bibby. But that’s the only edge he’s got, far as I’ve been able to see.
niremetal
February 23rd, 2010
11:48 pm
(Above team stats from 82games.com, btw)
JeJe
February 24th, 2010
12:00 am
We would lose to Orlando’s bench in a series.
Orlando’s bench of JJ Redick, Gortat, Bass, R.Anderson, Pietrus, J.Wills, and A.J. would beat our starters in a game
James
February 24th, 2010
12:01 am
KS – what playoff team is gonna bench their starting pg who many credit with elevating the current team into a playoffs to begin with for a rookie this late in the season ?
Look at Portland and Bayless . He didnt play much last year but this year even though they had Blake and Miller they moved Blake because Bayless earned that role. Teague has got to earn it and if Woody tried to just hand it to him it would never work.
darrell starks
February 24th, 2010
1:13 am
I here people on the radio and bloggs saying if we get big z he will back up horford thats a joke, if we get big z he better starte from day 1 period.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
February 24th, 2010
1:17 am
ME IF IM COACHING THE HAWKS AND WE GET BIG Z.
STARTERS JAMAL, JOE, JOSH, HORFORD, BIG Z.
BENCH BIBBY, MOE, MARVIN, JOE SMITH, ZAZA.
RESERVE TEAGUE, COLLINS
STREET CLOTHES MORRIS, MARIO.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!
Ken Strickland
February 24th, 2010
1:34 am
You BIBBY LOVERS are really something else. The flood water has entered the house and you clowns are still trying to fry bacon.
JAMES-your comment is exactly why Woodson is so adamant about protecting Bibby’s starting position, even if he has to limit the progress of younger PG’s in the process. What Bibby did 3yrs ago doesn’t have a damn thing to do with what’s going on now. Bottomline, Bibby almost assuredly saved Woodson’s job when he 1st arrived, but he’s now playing so poorly and hurting the team so much, he just might end up costing Woodson his job in the end.
NIREMETAL-I admire your determination to make Bibby into something he isn’t and will never be. According to your assumption and comments, “HE DOESN’T MOVE HIS FEET(and I suppose Bibby does), DOESN’T DENY PENETRATION(and I suppose Bibby does), GIVES UP TO EASILY WHEN HE GETS BEATEN(and I suppose Bibby doesn’t) AND DOESN’T EVEN FUNNEL OPPOSING PLAYER TO THE HELP(and of course we must assume Bibby does an excellent job of that).
How often do we see Bibby reach out and grab players as they blow by him? Is that your dilusional idea of him NOT GIVING UP WHEN BEATEN and/or DENYING PENETRATION? How many times can we actually say we’ve seen Bibby challenge a fastbreak, or go above the rim to block a shot attempt? I know we’ve all seen Teague do it a number of times, so is that your dilusional idea of him GIVING UP WHEN BEATEN. And when players take turns blowing by Bibby, as he stands flatfooted, is it your dilusional belief that he’s FUNNELING PLAYERS TO THE HELP?
You obviously can’t think beyond your obsession with trying to rationalize your distorted beliefs, which is why you conveniently failed to mention who was on the floor with Bibby and Teague when those figures were gathered. Bibby is seldom on the floor without Horford, JJ and Smoove, our 3 best DEF players. Teague is often on the floor with most of the 2nd unit players, and always during garbage time when little DEF is played by anyone. Bibby is seldom if ever on the floor in these situations.
NEXT TIME TRY TO MAKE AN HONEST, INTELLIGENT COMPARISON, NOT ONE DESIGNED OR SLANTED TO PROMOTE YOUR WEAK, IRRATIONAL IDEAS.
NIRE-REMEMBER, SOME PEOPLE CAN’T SEE THE FOREST FOR THE TREES, NO MATTER HOW HARD YOU TRY.
IREPATL
February 24th, 2010
1:37 am
youre retarded if you think jt0 plays worst d than bibby…..just retarded
doesnt move his feet? hellooooooooo thats what he does suprisingly good
GTFan1
February 24th, 2010
7:26 am
Does this Hawks team have good chemistry? Is it overrated?
http://thesportsdebates.com/2010/02/23/the-chemistry-in-sports-debate-%E2%80%93-bad-team-chemistry-limits-success/
dap01
February 24th, 2010
7:51 am
I am not an expert judge of NBA talent but if you look at Bibby, his legs are gone. His center of gravity while on defense is completely on his heals.
On offense, he does that strange side step shuffle just to get the ball across mid court and hand off and then he runs around with no real purpose. He is not sprinting to get into position. He is just getting out of the way.
Wow, 2 more years and if Woody is here, Bibby will play 29 minutes a game and give us 6 points and 2 rebounds.
Our team is at present disfunctional, our guards do not like to run, our coach does not like to run and our big men can fly.
O'Brien
February 24th, 2010
7:52 am
nire,
In terms of points per possession, to be fair to Teague, most of his minutes are with the second unit, so he doesn’t have the luxury of having Josh and Al back there to clean up his mistakes.
And when Bibby is in the game, how many times does JJ end up guarding the opposing PG? And when Teague is in the game, how effective is our switching (with bench players) compared to switching with our starters?
The fair comparison would be if Teague was to get minutes at PG playing with the starters, what would our defensive points per possession be? Under that scenario, I think our defense would be better.
I will admit that Teague needs to work on his defense, and he still makes a lot of mistakes, but the more PT he gets the better his defense will get. The more Bibby plays, is the worse his defense gets.
niremetal
February 24th, 2010
8:11 am
Ken,
You’re zealous hatred of Bibby is really becoming sad to see. You put a whole lot of words in my mouth there. I never said Bibby was good at any of the things that Teague is bad at. The only one of those 4 that Bibby does well is funneling players to help defenders. But you won’t even acknowledge that. You won’t acknowledge that there is anything positive about Bibby’s defense at all. My guess is that you won’t acknowledge that he’s quite good at doubling down on the post, which is an important skill on a team with an undersized front line. Or that he’s got some veteran savvy when it comes to selling contact and getting offensive fouls (particularly when he’s coming off screens).
I also never said that who they are on the floor with doesn’t matter. It does. But even if you look at the breakdowns for each 5-man unit, the ones where Bibby plays with the second unit and Teague with the first have show the same trend. Now that might be largely attributable to the fact that Teague doesn’t spend many minutes on the floor with the first unit and thus isn’t prepped to help them out. Another weakness of Teague’s is that he reaches in too much and thus gets too many foul calls. Bibby’s fouls per 36 minutes (2.5) is right in line with the league average for PGs; Teague’s (4.4) is significantly worse. That’s pretty common in young PGs, and no doubt will get better. And I actually DO very much want to see Teague get more PT so that he does get better at not fouling (and other aspects of his game). But right now, it’s a pretty big downside
Can you read your post? “Is that your dilusional idea of him NOT GIVING UP WHEN BEATEN and/or DENYING PENETRATION?” “You obviously can’t think beyond your obsession with trying to rationalize your distorted beliefs.” “NEXT TIME TRY TO MAKE AN HONEST, INTELLIGENT COMPARISON, NOT ONE DESIGNED OR SLANTED TO PROMOTE YOUR WEAK, IRRATIONAL IDEAS.” Why was any of that called for? Take a deep breath, man.
I never said Bibby was a good defender. I certainly think he is a below-average defender. But I don’t think he’s as cripplingly atrocious as you seem to think he is. And based on my observations, I certainly don’t think that as we stand here today, Teague is any better. The stats don’t reveal anything to the contrary (although I use stats as a checkpoint rather than a starting point). That’s why I’ve lobbied for us to acquire a solid on-ball defensive PG like Antonio Daniels or Brevin Knight. Right now, we have 3 bad choices when it comes to defensive PGs. Maybe in a month or next fall, JT0 won’t be bad (and no doubt, Bibby will be even worse). But right now, he is quite bad. That’s all I was saying.
niremetal
February 24th, 2010
8:12 am
*going around screens
ILL-logical
February 24th, 2010
8:48 am
Shultz’s most recent column on the Hawks is,well, for him, a cogent ,reasoned analysis.Add Al’s comments cited on this blog earlier, regarding his desire to play the 4 and compete against players his size and you have to wonder when the lightbulb is going to go off for the incumbant head coach.
The ball is in his court: if he adjusts to the realities that there is a problem and he is the major part of it with his lack of offensive excection and poor personnel decisions, he can be be part of the long term picture here. If not…?
It is not as if he doesn’t have options; line up changes now are tough but are a great deal easier now than in May. Allowing Coach Drew more resposibility for the offense is not a major issue unless he makes it one and creating more intensity on defense is matter of resting players during the game so that they can muster the energy at critical points late in the game rather than being run into the ground by then.
Who can get through to the guy? Don’t know but I do recall Al’s comments during the eyebrow incident:” Josh was the only one (with) enough courage to talk about it and … put the fake eyebows on him” Sounds as if there is a communication gap with the playres and dialouge only flows one way.
lp
February 24th, 2010
8:48 am
What about shaq coming to ATL if he accepts the MLE, I know he’s old but that would still be a step forward.
GeeMack
February 24th, 2010
8:52 am
Memo to the Hawks:
Please get a real center so Al can move to PF. Al will never complain, but he would welcome with joy a move to the 4. It als benefits the team.
vava74
February 24th, 2010
8:56 am
nire,
JT0 needs more minutes to develop his game and we need him to improve in order to have a minimum chance at being competitive in the second round of the playoffs (if we reach that far and if we do not sign a PG as the 14th man).
The point is – in my opinion – that under Woody’s present strategy we are working and pushing for a win-loss record which will be deceiving since we will reach the playoffs without a consistent rotation and without a game plan which will be AT LEAST COMPETITIVE against the Magic, the Cavs and even the Celtics.
Ken is right when he says that, in the absence of anyone else new to take over some of Bibby’s minutes at the PG slot we are damaging our game and our chances at anything better by keeping him longer than 25 minutes on the floor.
I do not agree in saying that he is completely washed up and that he has no role in our ball club, however, I believe that – in particular since he rolled his ankle – that his game is so bad right now that we would not be losing too much by giving more consistent minutes to JT0 and in particular with the first unit (or part of it).
I actually think that Bibby should take a week off to rest and re-focus, even if that mean losing a couple of games more (which is not a given fact).
When Woody took out Teague against the Warriors he was not directly responsible (at all) for our debacle and for the rapid decrease of our lead and – unfortunately for us – Bibby’s contribution to stop or overturn that disaster was ZERO.
Actually, if you look at the simple logic of the match up with had in that game against the Warriors, to have a slow footed and defensively weak PG like Bibby matching up against a burning hot Curry in the 4th quarter was a huge mistake by Woody.
Teague could not have done any worse since Bibby was not even bringing his shot to the table as he demonstrated by passing the rock when he had a pretty clear look to launch the game tying 3-pointer.
Personally, I would have gone extra big in the 4th and pounded the inside with Craw, JJ, Josh, Al and one of the bigs (probably JoeS playing at the high post) to counter Nellies “big” line up. On defense I would probably have gone zone and gamble on GS going cold down the stretch.
Craw would still give away a lot to Curry but at least we would have enough fire power on court.
O'Brien
February 24th, 2010
9:05 am
“I actually think that Bibby should take a week off to rest and re-focus, even if that mean losing a couple of games more (which is not a given fact)”. vava
vava,
I posted a similar opinion on the other blog.
“Nash’s backup had a pretty good game against the Thunder (and lots of TO too, but thats expected), and Collison has been playing well (he just needs to cut down on his turnovers) in place of CP3.
The Hawks have used only 2 different starting lineups all year, and have missed the fewest games in the NBA due to injury, so we have been very fortunate.
Not to wish anything bad on the Hawks, but I think it would be good for Teague if Bibby had to miss a game or 2. That way, maybe Woody would start Teague, so he would get some burn with the starters. And I think that would help his confidence long term.
If Bibby ever has to miss any games though, you hope its against crappy teams, and you hope its nothing serious.”
Fundamentals
February 24th, 2010
9:28 am
Folks on this blog go crazy when you mention starting Teague or letting him play with the 1st unit. It’s not about developing the kid and seeing what he can do. It’s all about wins and losses and seeding to protect Woodson’s record for his contract.
I personally don’t think Sund cares about our record. He cares about our performance in the playoffs. I’d say he wants to lock up at least the 4th seed, but after that he’s watching to see how we compete in the post season.
With that said who can argue that our bench needs to develop so that we can compete against Orlando or Cleveland? Aren’t we assuming that Teague, Collins and Randmo will need to be utilized to help in that effort?
If they don’t get minutes how are they going to be ready in a 2nd round series? We won’t even trust them in a regular game against terrible competition?
Bibby is obviously hurting and slumping. We need him to heal 100% and be ready for the playoffs.
What’s the harm in starting Teague and possibly even Randmo to experiment a few games with the Rook and going big. If it hurts us in the first quarter take them out and bring in Woody’s 7 man rotation. We’ve proven we can definitely come out of a slow start.
Give them a chance to develop. We need all our pieces ready…or we’ll go home in 4 in the 2nd round…if not the first round in 6.
Astro Joe
February 24th, 2010
9:40 am
It’s amazing how subtle changes are ignored around here.
So no one has noticed how many half-court sets now feature Josh in the high post in a “point PF” role? Has anyone noticed the frequency of the play when Joe uses a screen to cut to the rim and Josh hits him directly underneath the basket? Or how many times of late Joe is receiving the pass in or very close to the paint? I honestly have not looked at the monthly break down, but I would suspect that Smith’s assist have increased monthly since the beginning of the season.
Has anyone noticed Horford’s scoring output of late? Is he converting more of the same FGAs from the beginning of the season or is he getting more FGAs? I’d venture a guess that his FGAs are increasing.
How would you know if Woody changes his offensive strategies? Would he need to announce it to the media? An interview with ESPN or NBA.com? Or could he just do it without a grand announcement? It just seems like there are all kind of signs that the Hawks are altering their half-court sets since the beginning of the season but it seems to be taking some a while to open their eyes and actually see the change. And one iso-set would have you believe that nothing has changed.. you don’t remove the iso-sets but you do reduce them (and I think they have clearly been reduced).
I challenge folk to watch a few games looking for “what is good or what is different” as opposed to cynically watching for something that you don’t like.
vava74
February 24th, 2010
9:41 am
Astro,
We have completely missed the point when analyzing where I am coming from.
I am “pleased” with our record and my wish is that the Hawks become a competitive ball club.
I don’t think that winning the title is a realistic objective since I acknowledge the franchise and the town’s limitations. I do hope that we can achieve that goal, however, I don’t think we are in position to make push.
My rants against Woody are not related to being unhappy with the win-loss record, although I honestly think we could do better with the personnel we have.
I also know that we could be worse and I have repeatedly praised Woody for the positive things he brings to the table: focus on defense, good character, manages well the relationship with players, …
However, no one can honestly shake off the feeling that his management and his strategy is leading us to a deceiving win-loss record and that only if we are delusional we can believe that we stand any chance at going past the second round and that is SAD.
If you look at some of the teams with similar records, who also suffer from some inconsistencies, you see in them that although they are not yet top rate contenders you can sense that they MIGHT surprise any of the contenders. WE DON’T.
O’Brien’s post with the stats on our 4th quarter woes is very telling and you cannot expect that a good 4th quarter against an grossly undermanned Jazz team can wipe out the clear evidence that our coach manages poorly the rotation, consistently makes bad personnel decisions, does not have enough variation on our offense and is too afraid (probably due to his contractual situation) to live up to his own promises of playing his bench more and developing a deeper rotation.
Astro Joe
February 24th, 2010
9:49 am
Fundamentals, I for one do NOT believe that we will need 12 players to beat the Magic or Cavs or Celtics. My guess is that the team that plays us in the 1st round (and subsequently gets smacked down) won’t play the back-end of their bench against us (except when we’re blowing them out). Maybe the 3rd center plays when Horford has the first two fouling out. Or the 4th/5th guard plays when Joe/Jamal are abusing the first 3-4. But those back-end guys will only play as an act of desperation or in a blow-out situation. Just my opinion.
Fundamentals
February 24th, 2010
9:55 am
Astro,
I agree. I’m not saying we’ll play them or that we’ll need them if all goes well, but what happens when 2-3 players get banged up? Who do we go to? Right now we go home. We’ll probably go home with Teague and Morris, but at least we tried to be ready on all fronts for all situations. It can’t hurt us to develop the kids. Yeah Toronto is on our heels, but there’s gotta be a way to use the kids to get them ready.
Our lack of focus in 10-12 winnable games will haunt us late. We’ve done it to ourselves. We’ve missed a real chance to put ourselves in the 2nd seed with 2-3 developed players.
We’re on pace for 52 wins and an early 2nd round exit. Done deal without a real change of mental focus.
Daniel
February 24th, 2010
9:56 am
I want to co-sign Astro’s post. I think we all have a myopic view of the team, each of us with an agenda. Some fall into the IsoJoe camp, some the Marvin sucks camp, some the Teague and Randmo would be All Stars by now camp, and others the Woodson sucks camp. So we all watch the games looking for our particular agenda issues to arise, even when they don’t we see them or make them work to our advantage. Like with Teague, no one can argue with someone who says Teague would be better if given more minutes because it is all assumption. There is no proof there, but you can always be right that the player who is not on the court would do a better job if that happens to be the way you want to see it. It is just as likely that Teague is getting exactly the amount of pt that a rookie pg on a team with healthy veteran leadership should be getting. That opinion is just as “right” as any other. Everyone suggests that somehow Bibby is inhibiting Teague’s development. Well, Bibby’s minutes are drastically reduced, in reality it is Crawford’s presence that is keeping Teague on the bench. So I guess the minutes he has been getting are too much? The truth is if you want more of Teague it is not about less Bibby, it is about less JC and JJ. So please at least make your Teague “development” arguments based on the true minute distribution.
vava74
February 24th, 2010
9:56 am
Astro,
I am trying to post a much bigger post but the blog is not letting me.
The basic contents is to confront Woody’s own words on the previous blog by MC with the bare facts and with Al’s words on Josh’s vocal call for more ball movement down the line against the Jazz.
Apparently, the guy who is taking over as the vocal leader is not actually Al but Josh. Go figure!
vava74
February 24th, 2010
9:59 am
Astro,
We are not even talking about the playoffs yet.
The fact is that we got beaten by Amundsen and Dudley during the PHO loss and by a GS line up with Biedrins and Chris Hunter, a NBDL C.
With Woody is always PLAN A, PLAN A, PLAN A, PLAN A…
niremetal
February 24th, 2010
10:01 am
O’Brien/Vava,
No argument from me. I’d like to see Teague get more PT, and I have little doubt that he would easily surpass Bibby as a defender before too long. Heck, he’ll do that even without PT. My posts arise more out of frustration that Teague hasn’t been the on-ball defender I thought he’d be in the minutes he’s had this year. He’s a young cat, though, so it’ll come before long (assuming he gets PT).
Astro Joe
February 24th, 2010
10:04 am
Vava, I suspect that there is some mathematical equation that can be used to predict a team’s post-season success. I would suggest that some of the variables that immeduiately jump to my mind are the record against winning teams, road record, point differential, offensive and defensive efficiency, turnover rate and rebouding rate. I wouldn’t put 4th quarter scoring there without understanding what was the game situation (were they winning/losing going into the quarter), were any key players in foul trobuble, did the team miss an unusual amount of FTAs in the 4th quarter, etc. A sample of a 12 minute block of time can never be as good as a sample of a 48 minute block of time.
Lastly, I don’t know what is exactly “deceiving” about our record. Right now, we’re the 4th seed which suggest failure in the 2nd round. Wow, is that remarkably different than what would likely happen to a sub-luxury tax team playing a luxury-tax team in a 7 game series? Oh and throw in the fact that the other 3 teams have tons more playoff experience than the Hawks.
I don’t think that there is anything “deciving” about our record.
By the way, look who has played the most wiinijng teams so far and has a comparable number of losses to those winning teams? But hey, we sucked in 10 4th quarters so we’re doomed to postseason humiliation.
http://espn.go.com/nba/standings/_/type/expanded/group/2
Astro Joe
February 24th, 2010
10:09 am
Vava, you’re right I’m sure. When we get badly out-rebounded by the other team’s second unit, it is ALL about the coaching. Because rebounding so much about strategy and so little about physical execution. Let’s ignore the fact that we scored over 100 points in 3 road games and the one when we didn’t socre 100, we held the other team to about 20 points below their season scoring average. Just poor coaching. Let’s fire Woody now and have Drew take over.
James
February 24th, 2010
10:10 am
Ks – so you think Woodson is just trying to protect Bibby ? Why would a coach sabotage his own team just to play a rookie ? If he made a change right now the entire am would be shocked because everyone knows teague is not ready except for some fans.
This isnt an endorsement of Bibby but the reality that Jeff Teague is not ready to contribute major minutes to this team this year. Not mentally,defensively ,or offensively. Like every rookie he will give you a spurt or two but thats not what a playoff team is looking for .
vava74
February 24th, 2010
10:11 am
Daniel,
I have no agenda. I like Bibby, I like Woody, I actually like everyone in the organization.
What I don’t like is how Woody is not evolving but regressing.
Read MC’s previous blog again and draw up your conclusions.
Woody says that we lost against PHO and GS due to lack of effort, retracting from his own acknowledgement of guilt by playing only 6 guys against PHO and not acknowledging that we had NO STRATEGY to counter react to Nellie’s line up with two Centers.
His conclusions are: our game plan is good enough to win and when we don’t win is because our guys do not execute or don’t put effort.
Then he says that he does not like to blame players???
He also says that ISO Joe and ISO Jamal have been very effective for us.
O’Brien’s stats on our 4th quarter woes tell us the opposite.
Al Horford said, after the UTH game that Josh was shouting during the 4th quarter for more ball movement – in CLEAR CONFLICT WITH WOODY’S WORDS PRIOR TO THE GAME.
Apparently, the player who almost everyone proclaims (including me at times) as having the lowest BBall IQ was the guy taking over as the vocal leader and with positive results.