Woody: Short bench strategy “backfired on me” vs. Suns
Phoenix– Woody, subdued and contemplative at this morning’s light practice, acknowledged that his strategy of playing his starters heavy minutes was a big factor in the Hawks’ loss to the Suns last night.
“I did something last night I haven’t done all year in terms of playing six guys,” he said. “I really thought we could beat those guys like that but it backfired on me because their second unit beat us.”
The Suns’ reserves took it to the Hawks in the fourth quarter. The Hawks’ reserves other than sixth man Jamal Crawford watched the entire second half from the bench.
Despite going with the starters plus Jamal for those 24 minutes, the Hawks managed just 30 points, missed 20 of 33 shots and were beaten 27-17 on the boards. Jason Richardson was the only Suns starter to play more than four minutes in the fourth quarter.
“Their second unit is probably their best defensive unit and they climbed up in us,” Woody said.
Woody stuck with his six-man rotation even though Hawks vet Joe Smith sparked the team in the first half. He had seven points and four rebounds in six minutes and was active rotating out to Phoenix’s shooters.
“Joe Smith surely should have played more in the second half based on how he played early on,” Woody said.
Making matter worse for the Hawks was a poor shooting night. Joe Smith, Smoove and J.J. combined to shoot 19 for 37; the rest of the Hawks were 11 for 39.
Add those numbers to the Hawks’ 50-36 deficit on the boards, 15 turnovers and Phoenix’s 52 points in the paint and it explains how the Hawks lost despite holding the Suns more than 20 points below their league-leading scoring average.
“We couldn’t make shots,” Woody said. “We got good shots, shots we normally make. That put some pressure on our defense to get stops, and we did get some. But our offense worked against us. We have not seen too many nights like that.”
I asked Woody if the offensive problems were related to the specific matchup with the Suns or if there are adjustments he can make going forward. He kept coming back to his six-man rotation.
“I had to see something for myself,” Woody said. “I condensed things last night almost like it was a playoff game, when your backs are against the wall and you have to have one. I blew out six guys trying to do it. I can tell you it won’t happen again.”
MC
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151 comments Add your comment
Sekou is fat
February 20th, 2010
2:28 pm
“Joe Smith surely should have played more in the second half based on how he played early on,” Woody said.
NO CRAP
Volman
February 20th, 2010
2:30 pm
Ugh, Woody is an idiot.
Grandad
February 20th, 2010
2:35 pm
Wdsn is obtuse!
tidog
February 20th, 2010
2:45 pm
What’s the benefit of a six man rotation in the playoffs. Playoff teams have bench depth, thats why they are playoff teams. He’s amazing.
dap01
February 20th, 2010
2:48 pm
Do you think that Woody went with the starters because they were so hot?
Joe Smith played excellent in the first half and did not play again.
Bibby was terrible and yet Teague did not play.
Bad coaching.
Jay
February 20th, 2010
2:54 pm
Does anyone HONESTLY believe Woody wont run his players into the ground again?
NO
This is 100% the reason why Woody should NOT be extended. We will NEVER win ANYTHING with our players exhausted when the playoffs start.
Do you think it was just coincidence when all of our players got hurt in the playoffs? It was because the long rotations that the players play in the regular season finally wore them out.
jmthoughts
February 20th, 2010
2:57 pm
According to ESPN, PHX gives up 107ppg and their second team is their best defensive unit ?! Really? This is a really frustrating loss to a team that can’t play defense. Woody was the one that said come back focused on the second half. Way to lead by example. No in game adjustment whatsoever. Wow.
Hawk Str8Talk
February 20th, 2010
3:11 pm
I’ve been saying this on my blog for 2 years now. Woodson rolls with Plan A 95% of the time. Now, lack of use of the bench is NOT new, Woody. Maybe playing only 6 guys…guys who weren’t even playing well. I mean it makes sense a tad if your 6 guys were playing well and you were scared to LOSE, but when you’re being beaten that way to not change is crazy. So, we finally get Woodson to decide to put his stamp on a game and try something NEW and that’s what he came up with – play 6 guys when they aren’t playing well. For real, Woodson. that’s what you came up with. See my blog for more…Me, the Hawks, Drinks, Cards, Coaching, and Bench Loathing…http://www.hawkstr8talk.com/2010/02/game-recap-hawks-suns.html
MannyT
February 20th, 2010
3:20 pm
Woody is showing that he’s going to win or lose his way.
I wonder if the rest of the coaching staff thought this was a good idea.
It was a back to the future moment. He used to distribute minutes this way when Chills was the 6th man.
I hope he learnes from the mistake. More importantly, if you catch him again, I’d be curious…if the 6 had pulled out a close win by playing them into the ground, would that be better for the long term prospects of this team?
When the bench plays a decent first half, no minutes for you in the 2nd. What kind of message does that give to them?
BWAF
niremetal
February 20th, 2010
3:21 pm
Woodson rolls with Plan A 95% of the time.
And the other 5% is Plan B. Unfortunately, Plan B is to try harder at Plan A.
doc
February 20th, 2010
3:38 pm
woody being woody.
i can tell you, no, i guarantee you, he will do it again. problem with woody is he costs games on the floor rather than wins them. is he a good coach? yes, emphatically off the floor but not during games in his management of personnel during them. it is what makes a good assistant coach. it is why sometimes he gets soft minutes from his bench as he does. before you cry, “they should be ready all the time”, human behavior and bodies dont behave that way anymore than the “belief” his starters dont take minutes off for rest during their play time. i wonder if sund is keeping a running count on how many times his coach influences games positive or negatively as the season goes on.
MC that might be something to keep count of as well … woody’s personnel moves that truly influence flows of games.
james
February 20th, 2010
3:50 pm
MC –
maybe you could ask Woody why we are not more prepared for the hard double team team of jamal off the screen and roll.
The cavs did the exact same thing 2 months ago and we still seemed to have no strategy when in fact they were daring someone else to exploit them.
Craw uses the pick and gets double teamed out at the 3 point line . He passes to the big who set the screen and hes right at the top of the key and from that point on even though we have a 4 on 3 advantage we have no idea what to do .
We should be getting easy wideopen threes or the big should be able to make a quick move right into the lane and score .
Woody in essence proved a point about just how ineffective both Marv and Bibby have been this year. He played them both quality starter minutes and they couldnt give the team anything meaningful. He did it against a poor defensive team after a nice little rest as well.
I expect to see him adjust their minutes over the next few weeks and give someone else an opportunity.
JaBe
February 20th, 2010
3:55 pm
Gen. Manager Sund looks like agenius by waiting to have contract talks with Woodson after the season.
This team will not advance deeper into the play-offs under his coaching as evidence by the last three games.
Astro Joe
February 20th, 2010
4:40 pm
Recognizing the problem is the first step toward resolving it.
O'Brien
February 20th, 2010
4:42 pm
@ MC,
Could you ask the players (especially JJ), why do they think we come out so many games and not have the necessary focus needed? Especially this late in the season where every game counts as we try to win the division?
Assuming Woody gets a new contract from the Hawks this offseason, I wish he would hire Hubie Brown or Mike Fratello as an offensive consultant (even if its just during training camp). Because Woody has no idea when it comes to offense.
If the players are hitting shots, its all good. But when they’re missing, we dont have a play to go to for an easy bucket (unless its ISOs). And Woody does not know how to make adjustments. Its like he has it in his mind that if the players try harder, everything will work.
No bench players played much in the second half, and Woody said “I decided to go that route,” he said. “I learned a little something tonight because that won’t happen again.”
Seriously Woody? It does not take a rocket scientist to figure this stuff out. It doesnt matter who you are, you will get tired. And when you’re tired, even someone less skilled can outplay you. It does not matter the sport or the profession. 6 years as a Head Coach, and he stil hasn’t figured that out?
And where is Samuel? I think Woody can use some COY props…
Jed
February 20th, 2010
4:56 pm
What you have to like is Woody owning up to his mistakes (in the media, no less!). OK, maybe YOU don’t have to like it…..but to my mind, that’s what you want from a (still relatively) young head coach–the ability to learn. And if you don’t have a lot of ego invested in how smart you are (as evidenced by refusing to defend yourself in the media), you’re gonna see your mistakes a lot quicker and work to correct them. Furthermore, it gives the players the freedom not to doubt themselves so much. I hate that we lost the game, but I’m hoping it pays off for us in the long haul.
bigdave
February 20th, 2010
5:06 pm
he’s said this before.
Embarrased Hawks Fan In Phoenix
February 20th, 2010
5:17 pm
Woody is a moron, but MARVIN WILLIAMS IS OUR ACHILLES HEEL. He NEVER STEPS UP. I live in Phoenix and was at the game, and when Marvin threw that inbounds pass to Steve Nash, the entire US airways arena burst into laughter. I mean where is your head at man? CUT MARVIN WILLIAM
Happens to the best of 'em
February 20th, 2010
5:29 pm
AND IN EVEN MORE IMPORTATNT GAMES
MannyT
February 20th, 2010
5:41 pm
I feel like I am in the movie Groundhog’s Day as I cosign 3:21 (niremetal) & 3:38 (doc)comments.
I am sure we have done this multiple times in multiple years.
Maybe we can get Joe to average 40+ mins/game for the rest of the regular season as we reestablish bad habits.
BWAF
Point/Counterpoint
February 20th, 2010
5:42 pm
What’s wrong with Bibby?! He’s been awful!
Melvin
February 20th, 2010
5:50 pm
Woody keep an excuse in his back pocket. I guess he will expand his rotation to 7 in the 2nd half by playing ZaZa. If you want to impress us, trying playing at least a 9-man rotation in the 2nd half.
Clyde
February 20th, 2010
5:58 pm
Year after year its the same thing. Woody has been saying he will use his bench more for 3 years. Woody is Woody.
Delbert D.
February 20th, 2010
6:01 pm
Jeff Teague, where are you?
niremetal
February 20th, 2010
6:03 pm
Woody’s our very own Jubilation T. Cornpone. Opposing teams will build monuments to him after he retires.
Eric
February 20th, 2010
6:13 pm
The Hawks would be a better team today if they had chosen Flip over Bibby. It’s just like Atlanta fans to say today how bad Bibby is, but when he was a free agent everybody was saying please sign Bibby back. You got your wish, live with it!!!
kiki
February 20th, 2010
6:22 pm
Woody has peaked as a coach. Sund has to let him go at the end of the season; but the question is: are there better options available?
WE WON'T WIN UNTIL!
February 20th, 2010
6:26 pm
THAT dumbA** start using his bench and developing young players. let them play! he kills every young players career. teague would be a star on another team. man I can’t wait until we get a coach here who uses his bench like mike did in the 80’s. DOMINIQUE PLEASE COACH THE HAWKS….We would be way better off that that jackA***
R.U. KIDDIN'ME
February 20th, 2010
6:38 pm
HEY WOODY…. STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES!!! @ WE WON’T WIN UNTIL! YOU SIR ARE SPOT ON!!!!
O'Brien
February 20th, 2010
6:39 pm
How many times has Woody used the excuse “I need to play the bench more”. He’s probably said it every year for the last 3 years.
This offseason, all the starters and Woody talked about how good it was to have veterans on the bench. But whats the point if the coach wont play them?
If you’re a bench player on the Hawks, and you see Woody leave the starters out there, who are struggling, but yet he doesnt give anybody (besides Crawford) a chance to contribute, doesn’t that tell you that the coach has no confidence in you?
But yet, when he puts you in for 5 minutes, he expects it to be 5 minutes of mistake free basketball and 5 minutes of perfect execution, although you dont know when he’ll give you 5 minutes again, no matter how good you play?
What does Woody do if Crawford leaves when his contract is up, and Mo Evans is not resigned? He will be complaining about how he doesn’t have anyone on his bench who he can trust.
That being said, Sund has to share some blame too. He signed Bibby for 3 years (at least 1 year too long), and he gave Mo Evans a player option for a 3rd year (1 year too long). And if Marvin does not turn it around by next season, Sund will be responsible for giving Marvin a 5 year deal when noone else had offered Marvin anything. And at the trade deadline, Sund did not make a move.
Hawks need to step it up, because I cant imagine Sund is pleased with what he is seeing from Woody and the players he (Sund) signed.
Ken Strickland
February 20th, 2010
7:05 pm
If Woodson gets a contract extension:
(1) how many players do you think will want to return? Other than JCrawford, do you really think anyone on our bench would put on another Hawks uniform under him if they had a choice?
(2) How many veteran players will be willing to sign with the Hawks after seeing how Woodson has treated veterans Joe Smith, MEvans, ZPachulia, RMorris and JCollins?
(3) How many young PG’s would want to be traded to the Hawks knowing how they’ll be mistreated by Woodson because of his love affair with MBibby and his disdane for young PG’s?
When the team announced it would only maintain a 13 man roster, fans questioned why the team made the decision. Well, with a HC that’s too stupid, stubborn and/or insecure to play more than 7 players, why waste the money.
O'Brien
February 20th, 2010
7:06 pm
Saw this on ajc.com,
“But those veterans are playing career-low minutes for the Hawks, so it’s not clear if they will play a big role for the Hawks in the postseason. Woodson said they might.
“When the playoffs come, they can be a big, significant part of it,” Woodson said. “I haven’t told them that, but I hope they can sense it. In the playoffs, your rotation thins and you tend to play the guys that have done it. They become more valuable in the playoffs.”
What is Woody talking about? In the playoffs your rotation thins? His rotation is thin now.
cp
February 20th, 2010
7:07 pm
Every year we hear the same crap from Woodson. Its as if he has this stuff written down just in case he gets asked a question. 6 years as the head coach of this team and he still cant make adjustments, never has a reliable plan B, still under utilizes the bench, still no offensive system, still no team identity, and still cant figure out how to stay with the hot hand or take the cold guys out and try something different, and he still has an answer for our problems after the game but nothing during the game. Our talent has improved but coaching wise I still see the same crap.
TheAntiMe
February 20th, 2010
7:53 pm
Woody had to see for himself. That’s okay, except that everyone else could plainly see, by the end of the 3rd quarter, that his 6-man rotation wasn’t getting it done. Why did it take Woody so much longer to grasp this concept?
Melvin
February 20th, 2010
7:54 pm
Watching the OKC/Knicks game. TMac scored 5 pts in the opening 4mins of the game. He doesnt look bad for a guy who has missed the last 1 1/2 seasons…
Astro Joe
February 20th, 2010
8:16 pm
Funny, Woody admits his mistakes more readily than guys on here who use pseudonyms and have zero accountability for their opinions. Y’all wanted a more diversified offense with more touches for bigs… you got it. You asked for an offense where Josh wouldn’t be “forced” to shoot 3s at the end of the shot clock, you got it. You wanted a fast break oriented offense… I think we rank amongst the top 5 teams in fast break points. Is the offense perfect? Of course not, but it does rank among the top 5-6 in offensive efficiency and near the top in points per game in the Eastern Conference. Y’all are acting like we’re still a “Joe and the Pips” offensive team… didn’t we just win a road game with Joe, Jamal and Bibby scoring less then 35 combined?
OB, are you suggesting the team didn’t have energy in Phoenix?
Strickland, I challenge you to answer this question (as opposed to changing the question and answering a different one), if you were the GM, how many of the vets on this bench would YOU be interested in bringing back? RandMo? Colins? Joe Smith? Mario? Mo Evans (he actually can opt-out if he chooses)? Please, tell me how many of these wonderful players you would anxiously bring back next season.
Astro Joe
February 20th, 2010
8:18 pm
Melvin, I hope that you are taping the T-Mac Comet. He may not come back around for another 18 months.
Michael Cunningham
February 20th, 2010
8:19 pm
@tidog “What’s the benefit of a six man rotation in the playoffs. Playoff teams have bench depth, thats why they are playoff teams. He’s amazing.” fair point. usually this means going from nine to maybe 7, not from 8 to 6.
@ Manny “When the bench plays a decent first half, no minutes for you in the 2nd. What kind of message does that give to them?” another fair point.
@ doc: “MC that might be something to keep count of as well … woody’s personnel moves that truly influence flows of games.” that’s a very subjective thing. don’t think there is an objective way to do that. but if you want to come up with some criteria and keep track, even for a game, holla.
@ Jed: “What you have to like is Woody owning up to his mistakes (in the media, no less!).” something to be said for that but, then again, what else could he say? it was so strange.
@ O’Brien: “Saw this on ajc.com . . .”
that’s from my Sunday story: http://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-hawks/hawks-have-talent-but-317706.html
i plan to blog more on this tomorrow, but here is how it went down: Woody says before the game last night he plans to use J. Smith and Collins more in the playoffs. i’m skeptical but he plays both guys in first half and i think, “OK, he’s really going to do it, especially with J. Smith playing so well. this is the start of something.” then he plays no one but JC off the bench in the second half and i’m totally perplexed. then he says he learned his lesson last night and again today. it’s confusing.
Michael Cunningham
February 20th, 2010
8:35 pm
@ Astro Joe: “Is the offense perfect? Of course not, but it does rank among the top 5-6 in offensive efficiency and near the top in points per game in the Eastern Conference.” any criticism of the offense has to be placed in this context. the burden of proof is on the critic. the numbers are good despite not getting much from Bibby and Marvin most nights.
Hawk n the Ham
February 20th, 2010
8:36 pm
Woody, Woody, Woody. How are we going to believe you can figure out the Magic, if you can’t even figure it out to play your bench against the Suns bench??
Melvin
February 20th, 2010
8:44 pm
Astro,
TMac has 19pts (7-12) and 3assist in 17mins in the 1st half….
Astro Joe
February 20th, 2010
9:01 pm
Melvin, no doubt that he is a talented player. He’s a HOF talent who plays about 50 of every 80 games. And at $22M/year, it ain’t worth it. Not to mention his history of failure in thepost-season. Maybe, he will be willing to take on a Grant Hill type role for his next contract and team. Maybe that’s what D’Antoni is hoping to convince him to do.
Astro Joe
February 20th, 2010
9:05 pm
MC, I’d venture to say that the offense os good without getting much from Bibby and Marvin becvcause there aren’t too many teams who get a consistent 14+ from 4 guys every night. We spend so much time criticizing those who don’t bring it that we someetimes fail to realize that most teams don’t have 4 guys like Joe, Al, Josh and Jamal who are fairly consistent on both ends of the floor and can each deliver upwards of 20+ on a given night.
O'Brien
February 20th, 2010
9:06 pm
Astro,
I dont know what it is about these Hawks. I’m sure Woody talks to them before the game, and during halftime, about staying focused. But sometimes after a loss, the players will say they were’nt focused enough. That should not be happening.
Its one thing to just be missing shots, or the other team was playing great defense, or maybe we were tired, but it should not be lack of focus.
Melvin,
TMac has commented that he is not concerned about his salary for next year, because he has made lots of money already. He said he just wants to be healthy and show what he can do, and hopefully the Knicks will bring him back to play with whichever star player they get next season, and he is willing to take a pay cut.
Although at his salary and performance and injury, what else is he going to say? He knows he will have to take a fraction of $23 mil next season.
Wabe
February 20th, 2010
9:07 pm
I promise you, everytime I come in here after a loss, we’re all whining about the same things. There are flaws in our execution, but also the coaching.
Lack of minutes for the bench, lack of offensive sets, iso-jj/jamal, marvin/bibby don’t show up…
It’s always the same story when we lose. I’ll say this in terms of the bench, there REALLY isn’t as much talent on that bench as there needs to be for the Hawks to be a serious contender. I know many praised the Hawks for having depth earlier in the season, but, I wouldn’t hold that thought to be true today.
Wabe
February 20th, 2010
9:09 pm
And some of you guys have already pointed out how a team’s payroll factors into the quality of the bench. Investing in the bench is in the best interest of this team.
LY Munz
February 20th, 2010
9:11 pm
Come on MC,
No mention of Marvin’s fat duck butt ending the game throwing the ball right at Nash. What a disgracefu POS he is. Pathetic player!
ant banks
February 20th, 2010
9:30 pm
please do not resign jj. let someone else pay him 17mil/per yr to avg 19pts a game and not show up in big games.
LY MUNZ,
you are rigth. marvin is a pos
niremetal
February 20th, 2010
9:38 pm
Watching Toronto-Washington. Great game. Two things stick out to me:
1) The Wizards are playing MUCH better now than they did before the team was blown up. Flip has always been good at molding second units, so I guess a team full of second-unit players suits him.
2) The Raptors home crowd is larger and louder against Washington than ours was when I went to the Jazz game.
Harpie
February 20th, 2010
9:40 pm
Mike Woodson makes me SICK!
Melvin
February 20th, 2010
9:41 pm
TMac is on the bench with 7mins remaining in the 4th and the crowd is chanting “We want Tracey”… Too Funny
Melvin
February 20th, 2010
9:42 pm
Now the crowd goes wild as TMac gets off the bench to check in the game…
Melvin
February 20th, 2010
9:49 pm
Astro,
Keep in mind, how this conversation of TMac started. I said if he was bought out of his contract then it would be nice for the Hawks to sign him. It would have been a low risk move with potential to have high rewards. Hawks would have sign him for pennies and his presence on the court demands the other team attention and he possibly could generate more tickets sales b/c he’s still has a good following. Dont forget he’s only 29 unlike Hill who was in mid 30’s when he finally got healthy again.
Michael Cunningham
February 20th, 2010
9:56 pm
@Ly: mentioned Marvin in the game blog last night. i know he’s disappointing you with his play but no need to get personal with the guy. it’s just basketball.
Melvin
February 20th, 2010
9:57 pm
This is crazy. TMac first game back after in over a year with a new team and team are running ISO TMAC in the 4th qtr… Oh yeah, he’s delivering too..
Astro Joe
February 20th, 2010
9:58 pm
nire, I suspect that the previous Wizards crew had a certain culture already established and Flip was likely an outsider. Now, he mostly has guys who are looking to prove something as NBA players (Thornton, Blatche, Young & McGee) or are trying to ensure a good contract next summer (Miller, Foye, Boykins & Howard). In other words, these guys are probably more apt to listen than the previous collection who acted entitled to return to the playoffs. If they weren’t in our division, I would be pulling for Flip and the Wizards (even though I believe that the Wizards management enabled some of Arenas’ bully tactics).
Bank Head
February 20th, 2010
10:00 pm
I think we should be officially worried about Toronto. They’re now only 4 games back. If you check their sched, right after that game where we killed them in December they’ve been on a big run.
Astro Joe
February 20th, 2010
10:06 pm
Melvin, I think TMac is a ball-hog who would reduce FGAs for Horford and Josh and increase the amount of jumpers shot by this team. And I don’t think that he would have come in with a team-first mindset but instead to increase his value for his next contract. At best, Sund is only going to add one roster spot and I would hope that we could find someone who addresses an existing need better than a bought-out TMac. I don’t trust him to stay healthy and if he is healthy, I don’t trust him to play within the team’s existing dynamic. For all of the faults that are well documented here, it is still telling that Mario West has experienced more playoff series success than Tracy McGrady.
O'Brien
February 20th, 2010
10:08 pm
Melvin,
Even if TMac was bought out, I doubt he would sign with the Hawks. He would want to go somewhere where he could get more minutes, and with JJ and Jamal, that would not happen here.
And I cosign AJ’s 10:06 pm post.
I wonder what kind of salary Josh Howard will get next season. If he cuts down on the partying and the smoking, he might actually have alot of suitors.
LY Munz
February 20th, 2010
10:10 pm
It’s not personal. If I suck at my job, I get fired/criticized. Simple as that. The fact of the matter is, the guy continues to slide by despite being absolutely useless. If Woodson had any balls he would bench him immediately. That pass last night was inexcusable. My grandmother could have inbounded it better.
My main point is that the guy needs to be criticized heavily. Perphaps that will motivate him to improve a bit. Right now he is coasting.
Keep up the good work though MC. Sorry I missed it in the blog last night.
LY Munz
February 20th, 2010
10:11 pm
Anybody watching T Mac right now? Absolutely crazy how well he is playing. Damn good game going on here.
Astro Joe
February 20th, 2010
10:16 pm
OB, but who is going to trust that he has cut down on the partying and smoking?
Hey y’all, take a look at Mo Evans from around 12/18 through last night’s game. Two solid months of data.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=1031
Melvin
February 20th, 2010
10:16 pm
Astro,
I remember you saying some of the same thing about Jamal and look how well he has mesh with this team. Also, we could have used 3rd legit scorer last night that could create his own shot when the Hawks scored 30pts in the 2nd half….
Melvin
February 20th, 2010
10:20 pm
Obrien,
Signing TMac was just a hypothetical suggestion. I told Astro that signing him would help with revenue and if he could still play that would be a bonus…
Melvin
February 20th, 2010
10:22 pm
Astro,
Good link. Looks like Mo is over paid…lol… I wish we could play like his look-a-like Darvin Ham, remember him?
S Hawk Fan
February 20th, 2010
10:23 pm
I have said it for a few years….. if Woody is coach then we are settling for average! He is outcoached every night! But considering this ownership group.. what should we expect! If the Hawks retain Woody then I WILL NOT GO TO OR WATCH ANOTHER GAME UNTIL HE IS GONE! I am tired of settling for average!!! Mr. Sund do the right thing!
O'Brien
February 20th, 2010
10:29 pm
AJ,
For the Hawks to upgrade their bench as necessary, ASG might have to open up their wallet, because we will not win the Eastern conference with bench players like Joe Smith, Mo Evans, Collins, West etc.
I was hoping Sund would have been able to make a deal at the deadline for a backup SF, because Mo is getting worse offensively, and his defense is overated (plus he is too small to play backup SF).
He averaged 4.5 ppg in January, and 1.5 ppg so far in February. Horrible nimbers. I hope Sund and Chills are able to work things out this summer. Either sign him, or trade him.
Jt
February 20th, 2010
10:35 pm
Same ole Woody. Never will learn
Carlos Slim
February 20th, 2010
10:55 pm
I’m going to buy this franchise and i will be moving this team to Seattle(Mexico City if I could.)
Carlos Slim
February 20th, 2010
10:59 pm
Atlanta is just a bad city for sports.
Jody
February 20th, 2010
11:03 pm
I tell you what, if T-Mac were bought out, the Hawks would be extremely foolish not to consider the guy. He defenitely could provide that third guy on the floor who can consistently create his own shot and would make the Hawks that much stronger come playoff time. When the opportunity presents itself, you don’t turn down talent.
doc
February 20th, 2010
11:13 pm
MC, first of all glad you are reading and interacting with us. good stuff and glad you are here. i guess i’ll take your acumen at watching nba basketball and you might have seen a few maneuvers by a head coach that deserve a huge cudo. i bet adelman and george karl have racked up a few playing with inferior talent and coming up big even when there are injuries, maybe you saw them.
guess i could say riles did it a few times when you were covering the heat to counter moves a coach made, no? i guess it wasnt so subjective either was it. i guess you have seen them yourself and marveled at it. i guess when you see woody do it, wake me up and tell me because i rarely see woody being that inventive or creative. sorry good guy, good coach but not in the realm that i sit back and say wow, where did he come up with such an idea that worked so well.
Carlos Slim
February 20th, 2010
11:20 pm
Mexico City Brown Eagles. Too bad Mexico isnt a good place for an NBA team.
dstdeelite
February 20th, 2010
11:47 pm
Woody, are you an idiot? Or do you just play one on TV.
Rufus1
February 21st, 2010
12:40 am
One Day
We will kmow one day if our problem is Woody or our players. We will know if he wasted talent and draft picks or got the most out of this team. I think our problem is Woody…just like Clevelands problem is Brown. The lack of player development and in game adjustments has always been our problem. OKC has done in 3 years, what it has taken the Hawks 6…How good would OKC be in the east? Teague will go the way of Law in Woodys system and be another wasted draft pick.
As good as our team is on defense at times…you win championships by offensive and defensive development. Woody has proven he is a defensive coach..maybe Golden State should hire him, because we now need an offensive coach.
PS..I think a new coach would be atleast as good as Woody
BirdDawg
February 21st, 2010
1:56 am
@ WE WON’T WIN UNTIL!…it seems someone else feels as much frustration as I do with this coach. This guy has been making the mistake of not using his bench and his young players the entire time he’s been here. It’s time for him to stop holding this team back or be replaced with a coach that can take them to the next level, I vote for Byron Scott. Woodson just doesn’t have the ability to get the most out of his team and with a team with as much talent as the Hawks, that’s a complete waste. Billy Knight stepped down rather than see this guy continue to coach this collection of talent into the ground. Time to keep his sacrifice from being in vain.
BirdDawg
February 21st, 2010
2:05 am
cp
February 20th, 2010
7:07 pm
Every year we hear the same crap from Woodson. Its as if he has this stuff written down just in case he gets asked a question. 6 years as the head coach of this team and he still cant make adjustments, never has a reliable plan B, still under utilizes the bench, still no offensive system, still no team identity, and still cant figure out how to stay with the hot hand or take the cold guys out and try something different, and he still has an answer for our problems after the game but nothing during the game. Our talent has improved but coaching wise I still see the same crap.
I LOVE THIS POST!!!! THIS IS HITTING THE NAIL SQUARELY ON THE HEAD!!!! GREAT ONE CP!!!!
Dr. Warren
February 21st, 2010
2:24 am
At least he publicly admitted his mistake. But it was a reckless move. The Hawks can credit their 35 wins so far, in large part, to their lack of injuries. Why push it at this stage of the season??
Ken Strickland
February 21st, 2010
3:18 am
ASTRO JOE-I would not only bring the entire bench back, I’d actually play them this season. MWest can have a positive influence on some gms with his hustle, DEF and athleticism. RMorris has size, height, mobility and a very good inside OFF gm than can make a difference in gms where our outside shooting is off. Playing him at PF can also create some serious and interesting matchup problems for certain teams, like Orlando. JCollins has proven to be effective against bigger less mobile centers like himself. JSmith gives us a still talented and versatile player who can effectively replace Smoove and play center against less physical centers.
The problem is, your beloved Woodson allows his personal feelings to influence his judgement and treatment of players, often to the detriment of the team. As a result, when it comes to certain players, he will focus on what they don’t do well and respond to them accordingly, rather than taking advantage of what they can do well. And since when did ADMITTING a mistake become more important than CORRECTING that mistake?
You WOODY LOVERS seem to be satisfied with him continuing to make the same stupid mistakes and poor judgement, as long as he continues admitting to it. WHAT KIND OF BS IS THAT? I know he’s making it hard for you to justify supporting him, but DAMN!
Woodson likes being the HC more than he likes the responsibility of coaching. He maps out a pregame strategy, and if at some point it fails, he simply puts the gms in the hands of his key veteran players, then stands on the sidelines and allows them to do whatever they want. If we win, most fans are happy, especially those like you who defend him no matter what. If they fail, Woodson blames the players, and supporters like you single out certain players to blame, in order to deflect any criticism of Woodson.
RSUND HAS SIMPLY GIVEN WOODSON MORE TALENT, VERSATILITY AND DEPTH THAN HE HAS THE ABILITY TO EFFECTIVELY HANDLE.
Ken S.
February 21st, 2010
4:37 am
Robes for sale!
vava74
February 21st, 2010
6:56 am
My ten grains of salt:
1. I couldn’t watch the game, it was way to late for me over here (tip off @ 2 AM), however, after reading all the info and analyzing all the data made available in the net, it is easy to conclude that we lost a tight game against a strong opponent almost exclusively due to Woody.
I am also downloading the game so I can check it out in detail later today.
2. I have always been a moderate Woody supporter because I am a firm believer that coaches can also grow and improve.
I am a strong believer that part of the team’s success is due to Woody and that he has instilled good things in this group.
I also thing that the players like him and listen to him. This is an extremely important factor and something which cannot be disregarded.
3. However, Woody is proving to be a very slow learner. Why? Probably because his a** in on the line and he is too afraid to take risks and use his bench (including JT0).
Maybe, like I have read in the blog earlier, he is an excellent Assistant, rather than a good HC. We just have to wait until the end of the season.
I know that everyone sees RandMo under a very bad light due to his poor conditioning last year, however, he is UNDOUBTEDLY our best and most refined low post threat. He has very good fundamentals and his moves are sharp and well executed.
I concede that his defense and rebounding are still below par, however, when we have trouble scoring why not give him some minutes and some possessions? How can he develop into something useful to us if he does not play?? And how many times have we seen our own starters failing to defend well and having match up problems against scrubs??
The fact is with our current use of the bench, we are delusional if we thing we can go beyond the second round. PURELY DELUSIONAL, EVEN IF WE GET THE #2 spot in the East!!!!!!!
The 1989 BAD BOYS had Vinny Johnson, James Edwards, Mahorn and Salley ALL PLAYING a minimum of 18 minutes. NINE guys played consistent minutes.
The 1990 BAD BOYS again had 8 players getting a minimum of 22 minutes (they didn’t resign Mahorn).
Even the 2004 Pistons’ much shorter rotation had Okur and Lindsey Hunter averaging 11 minutes, Corliss Williamson averaging 15 and Mike James and Elden Campbell averaging 8/9 minutes.
I mentioned already a few weeks ago that we need to “sacrifice” (meaning accepting the possible sacrifice of – and not that it’s a given fact that there will be an actual sacrifice) a few wins by playing our bench more, INCLUDING JT0!!!!
Yes, he is raw, but not playing him does only bad things to him. How can do much worse than Bibby is right now?? Let me tell you: HE CAN’T.
I like Bibby and I still consider that he can still have a very important role in our future success, however, I cannot shake the feeling that Bibby is a bit lazy and is feeling a little bit too comfortable regardless of what he brings to the table:
a) He should shed some weight;
b) He should be forced to penetrate more (yes, he is slow, but we have seen him drive and pop, off picks, in occasions with acceptable results – Woody has to demand that from him) – remember, Bibby’s best game was not only his 3 point shot but also his mid range shot.
c) His game dropped dramatically after his ankle sprain. How many games did he miss? ZERO and everyone knows that ankle sprains do not get better by playing injured. TO REST is essential!!
4. Nonetheless, that is not the only thing going bad with Woody: he’s in game analysis is poor and I believe that his opponents scouting is also.
This is the second time in just a few games in which the opposing team’s bench completely trounces us.
MIA won the game with their bench and now PHO won the game with their bench. How can you be so ill prepared that you let Dequan Cook score at will in almost every single game against us??
How can we play the Magic making the exact same mistakes? Leaving their 3pt shooters completely free to turn the games around?
How can he play PHO at home, see Dragic do a good job against us and not be prepared to see him do it again?? Dragic in ATL was 5-10 for 10 points, 2 reb, 6 assists, 3 steals in 23 minutes!!!!
How can he – as certainly did – not prep talk the team to be careful with Dragic? Both times we came prepared for Nash and then we relaxed when his replacement came in…
BAD PREPARATION. You need to remind the players of what has happened in previous games and know your opponents (the same goes for MIA’s Cook)
5. Our record is now dwindling slowly as the season progresses. This is obviously linked with the fact that Bibby’s game has gone down, Crawford missed a game and is playing hurt and below his standard.
AND WOODY does not adapt… well, to be honest, he does, BY SHORTENING THE ROTATION!!!!
You have 2 players out of your top 6 playing hurt and you SHORTEN the rotation??? WTF???
5. I already suggested a few times and will continue to do it again:
Marvin is playing a lot worse than last year. Many factors certainly contribute to that, including some which are not of his responsibility.
Despite Woody’s commentaries that he hoped that he would step up his game, the fact is that now that we have Craw, there are less minutes and less touches for Marvin: he his seldom involved in the offensive game.
Marvin is a natural shooter (the shots are not going down, but his release is good) who is now reduced to an utility player.
He brings a low key type of defense which is precious within the switching defense (his +- against PHO was positive), however, the overall balance of his presence on court seems in many occasions negative.
Why not bring him off the bench like he played in NC? Why not try JJ at the SF spot and Mo at the starting SG slot?
Mo is playing out of position and looking at his log YOU CAN SEE that he is suffering from lack of minutes. He had a few good games early in the season WHEN he played 20+ minutes.
He should start and get 20/25 minutes and he would certainly deliver. Since he is not producing under the current assignment, why not try this?
JJ at the SF slot would be able to use his dribble and superior comparative speed against most SF and we could have JT0 coming in at the PG spot with Craw and JJ attracting the opponents defense.
I am sure that JT0 would get to the rim and score (or dish) with that ATL line up since he would not be – FOR SURE – the focal point of the defense.
This would allow us to have a much deeper rotation. IT IS NOT a given fact that your starting 5 has to be the top 5 talents in the roster, but the combination which allows you to have a better ROTATION.
We need to have a second team which keeps enough pressure offensively and but points in the board, even if they do give away on defense as well.
The fact is, how can you motivate you bench to play good defense, be focused and produce if you don’t give them enough minutes to even warm up??
Joe
February 21st, 2010
7:08 am
How does this guy keep his job? We are shameful franchise….
Go CAVs!!!!
JoeBjoe
February 21st, 2010
7:29 am
Shouldn’t you have run that experiment before the trade deadline to see if ya’ll needed to make a move?
Clyde
February 21st, 2010
7:56 am
Samuel please take up for ya boy Woody!!!
FIRE WOODY
Jeff
February 21st, 2010
8:12 am
MC- I have an idea, ask Woody to let the 2nd unit start tonight and let the hawks get the lead before bring in the 1st unit (starters) and see what his reaction would be. I think it would be very interesting to say the least to watch. Heck- he may be surprised as to how well they would do.
It appears that the starters are getting tired legs, and it isn’t like we are burning up the month. We currently stand at 4W and 3L. JJ seems a bit slow and ISO happy. Maybe he is getting worn down a bit.
Maybe we could find a replacement from within for Marvin and his shooting woes. Just a thought.
Clyde
February 21st, 2010
8:15 am
Vava good post
vava74
February 21st, 2010
8:38 am
Clyde,
Thanks for the props.
By the way, the Pistons’ rotational stats that I mention relates to the PLAYOFFS, not regular season.
d.carter
February 21st, 2010
8:43 am
Vava very good post….
niremetal
February 21st, 2010
8:49 am
I just noticed this…Andris Biedrins is shooting 13% from the line this year. Granted, he’s only attempted 23 but my goodness…
niremetal
February 21st, 2010
8:51 am
And agreed with Clyde and d.carter – great post, Vava.
Sautee
February 21st, 2010
9:18 am
Mike Woodson: “I had to see something for myself,” Woody said. “I condensed things last night almost like it was a playoff game, when your backs are against the wall and you have to have one.”
Funny but in the Finals, Game 5 when ORL “had to have one” SVG played TEN players. And I’m no SVG fan, by any means.
In fact, for the 5 games of the Finals, NEITHER team played fewer than 9 players in ANY game.
BONE
February 21st, 2010
9:32 am
Woodson is just a bad coach. He doesn’t do anything good.
vava74
February 21st, 2010
10:00 am
d.carter & nire: thanks!
terrell
February 21st, 2010
10:22 am
INSANE!
terrell
February 21st, 2010
10:28 am
That interview alone should get Woody canned. Seriously!
The Truth
February 21st, 2010
10:29 am
Michael Cunningham
Nice job in revealing the “The Truth” about Woody issues and exposing his often-talked-about flaws. The blog “chatter” is beginning to show up in your articles. Sekou Smith is a nice guy but he often avoided this type of dialog. The political correct option with a Rah-Rah spin suited him best. Your investigative style is refreshing.
terrell
February 21st, 2010
10:36 am
Shoulda picked up T-Mac. I’d rather have an often injured McGrady for 45 games or so, than a healthy Marvin for the entire season. And btw, here comes Toronto, Miami, and Chicago. Hawks better step their game up.
Saint Richt
February 21st, 2010
10:47 am
Fire Mike Woodson……team succeeds DESPITE his best efforts.
Astro Joe
February 21st, 2010
11:17 am
Melvin, one of my mentors always used to say “never assume that lightening will strike twice in the same place”. And therefore, no thanks to TMac. I’ll gladly watch him rehabilitate himself elsewhere.
Strickland, Im not privy to any of Woody’s “personal feelings” about his players. I used to be on the anti-Woody bandwagon but I had to jump off when he had the nerve to start winning. So yeah, count me as a fan… because I also have some very specific thoughts about the ASG’s level of funding and the price of bringing in a proven coach. The Hawks are in a tight battle for 2nd/3rd place and not entirely because BK and Sund have been exceptional GMs with an exceptional salary to purchase exceptional players. The whole works and that whole includes Woody. So I tend to defend the whole, Marvin, Joe and even Woody. The whole works… the ish does in fact work.
Astro Joe
February 21st, 2010
11:21 am
Man, are y’all sending BK bouquets on the down low? Because if this team is competing for a top 3 playoff spot entirely in spite of Woody, then BK clearly needs to be receiving weekly thank you notew from this fan base (and Sund too). And every other NBA team needs to figure out how to find self-managing players who can have this level of success without any guidance from their head coach. They could easily reduce operating costs by simply hiring a trainer and a travel secretary, or maybe Mo Evans is also a travel agent and arranges all of the logistics for the road trips too. Wow, these guys are good.
Melvin
February 21st, 2010
11:33 am
“• Of the top free agents for 2010, Atlanta’s Joe Johnson is the one considered the most likely to find a new team. The Hawks have heard the rumblings and already made it known that Johnson will get a first-year salary of around $17 million in a new multi-year “maximum” salary deal. He’s making $15 million now.” – NY Daily News
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/2010/02/20/2010-02-20_cross_nets_clips__heat_off_lebrons_list.html
niremetal
February 21st, 2010
11:57 am
Melvin,
Whoever that “source” is (hint: this is the NYDN, which is basically a glorified tabloid, so there probably isn’t a source) needs to brush up on the NBA’s salary cap rules. Barring a significant increase in the salary cap next year (which is about as likely as the Nets winning 10 straight between now and May), the max salary JJ could get next year is 105% of his current salary, or $15.7M. It might average $17M over the life of the deal, but it sure won’t start there.
richbrave
February 21st, 2010
12:01 pm
niremetal
February 20th, 2010
9:38 pm
Watching Toronto-Washington. Great game. Two things stick out to me:
1) The Wizards are playing MUCH better now than they did before the team was blown up. Flip has always been good at molding second units, so I guess a team full of second-unit players suits him.
2) The Raptors home crowd is larger and louder against Washington than ours was when I went to the Jazz game.
Nice to know that you’re seein’ what I’m seein’. Someone asked why the big difference in regard to the play of the WIZ. My answer was…………. guaranteed contracts and the level of pay.
vava74
February 21st, 2010
12:08 pm
I’ve just watched the game. Some complementary notes:
1. I have no words to qualify Woody’s role in this loss. Maybe “bewildering” comes close. Joe Smith was very active and productive and the fact that he did not get any more minutes is pathetic.
2. Bibby had a pretty decent first half (6pts 4ass) and a pretty awful second half with many lazy passes. In his defense, I think he got whacked in the 4th when did the right thing and drove to the basket in search of the free throws or a dish.
At this juncture of his career, or at least in his current physical status, he can only play 20-25 minutes. To play him more than this is a bad option.
3. Crawford is clearly struggling. To make him shake off his injury by playing him heavy minutes is – again – bewildering.
4. Mo is clearly playing out of position: he got slaughtered by Hill in a couple of possessions where his lack of height exposed him as a bad option on the SF slot. His defense is more effective at the top of the key where he can get steals, keep up with SG, help trap the opposing PG and get easy fast break buckets.
5. JJ has 2 major flaws in his game which should be easy to correct – one of them with Woody’s intervention:
a) When he is double teamed on the sideline (typically on left side of the court) and he tries to pass over the double team, he is often too lazy and slow doing it. In his defense, I must say that, typically, there is no one close enough for him to squeeze a pass between the defensive trap.
When JJ is trapped, Woody has to put people helping him out and coming closer to get the ball instead of having JJ trying to make a long pass.
Also, AVOID AT ALL COST, getting the ball to JJ in that position so many times in a row (I know that it’s his favorite spot. but it shouldn’t when he gets consistently double teamed there). Let them double team him at the top of the key where he will have two passing options.
b) JJ often turns his head on defense and let’s his man perform a back cut to the basket unopposed. The funny thing is that this happens more often against scrubs or secondary players than with first-teamers.
It happened during a critical moment of the game with Dudley as it happened as well against NY with Nate in ATL.
6. It is also unexplainable why no one crashes the boards when JJ is isolated. One thing is to clear the court for him to penetrate, another is to, when he starts the jump shot motion, remain nailed to the ground.
7. Let’s be honest: Al is in some games over matched by bigger opponents which are as mobile as he is. Nothing against him!! He is, by his own right, an all star center, however, when he faces this type of opponents he can be taken off the game.
The fact is that in those games Woody has to put some more beef on court taking Al out of the game earlier and then getting him in when the match up is more favorable.
Another alternative would be to – in set occasions – have Smoove drop to the SF slot, Al to PF and use another big (even Joe Smith would do) to get us some more boards and create favorable match ups for Al and Josh inside.
Provided that Joe Smith is placed on the top of the key in the high post within his shot range we could have interesting results.
I MUS WRITE
February 21st, 2010
12:14 pm
VAVA Thats alot of salt Homie….. Good post’s tho
darrell starks
February 21st, 2010
12:19 pm
WOODY IS GOOFY WHO DOES THAT AS A COACH 6MAN ROTATION WHAT A JOKE.
GO HAWKS!!!!!
vava74
February 21st, 2010
12:27 pm
IMUS,
Thanks. To watch a game which outcome is already known and end up in a defeat hurts even more than to watch it live… you can see in anticipation all the lost opportunities and where the game is being lost with a more analytic eye. It’s an interesting exercise.
Melvin
February 21st, 2010
12:32 pm
Nire,
Good catch about the NY Daily. I won’t put nothing pass the media trying to make news. However, I know the Hawks can offer JJ an extra year but can an opposing team offer the same starting amount?
JohhnyWalking
February 21st, 2010
12:41 pm
The Hawks are still a VERY GOOD team this year. You can AND WILL hound Woody for his short comings as coach, BUT the Hawks are still in the best position that have been in a lonnnng time. And for that Woody gets his credit. To read some of these post you would think people are talking about the NETS. Worse job ever, No clue at ALL, we get beat by 20 every night, the bench sucks, we wont make it to the FINALS game JUST the eastern conf Finals, I mean come on man, REALLY??? But thats the function of any BLOG seems like. True enough we had a 13 win season not long ago,BUT to come where we are TODAY speaks volumes. Is this team perfect, NO not even close. They are still one of the TOP teams in the NBA on a Walmart budget. Woody aint so bad. They are the HOME team, how about a little support??? Come out to a game, spend 20 or 30 bucks. Dont just sit on a blog during EVERY game whining and complaining.
darrell starks
February 21st, 2010
12:48 pm
JOHHNY WALKING dont come on here talking about us blogger, i dont just be on here complaining i be at the hawks game complaining 2, i am a season tickets holder so no what your talking about.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!
Ken Strickland
February 21st, 2010
12:51 pm
VALVA74-WOW, you’re starting to sound like a less frustrated version of me. EXCELLENT COMMENTS AND OBSERVATIONS.
ASTRO JOE-you are always give Woodson credit for whatever the team does well, but you are unwilling to hold him accountable for his involvememt in whatever the team does wrong, even if he admits it. YOU KNOW, YOUR DOGMATIC, INFLEXIBLE AND STUBBORN APPROACH AND THOUGHT PROCESS MIRRORS WOODSONS. YOU BOTH STICK WITH WHAT YOU FEEL NO MATTER HOW BADLY IT’S FAILING.
niremetal
February 21st, 2010
12:53 pm
Melvin,
Yeah, I’m pretty sure other teams can offer the same starting salary. The big differences are 1) as you said, the Hawks can offer a 6th year instead of just 5; and 2) the Hawks can offer higher annual raises (10% instead of 8%). As a result, if the max starting salary is $15.8M, the max other teams could offer is ~5yr/$90M (averaging $18M/yr) and the max the Hawks can offer is ~6yr/$119M (averaging $19.8M/yr) or if the Hawks don’t want to offer a sixth year, 5yr/$96M (averaging $19.2M/yr).
niremetal
February 21st, 2010
12:54 pm
*10.5%, not 10%. Those percentage points add up when you’re doing a long-term contract.
JohhnyWalking
February 21st, 2010
1:01 pm
“i dont just be on here complaining i be at the hawks game complaining 2″ “YOU BOTH STICK WITH WHAT YOU FEEL NO MATTER HOW BADLY IT’S FAILING.” Thats exactly what im talking about. Complaining about what??? Trying to get the NUMBER TWO seed in the EAST???? Failing at what???? Home court advantage in the 1st round??? Maybe I’m blind. Maybe if we had a luxury tax roster or won a Championship in the last 3 years and TRYING to get back on top I could see it.
Ken Strickland
February 21st, 2010
1:32 pm
ASTRO JOE-With the talent former GM BKnight and current GM RSund have added to our roster each yr, this team would be hard pressed not to win. And before you get too carried away with your embellishment of Woodson as the sole reason for this team winning, remember, he’s had a grand total of just ONE(1) winning season prior to this yr. How hard was it to increase our win total each yr when we started out with a near NBA record low 13wins. And, with the GM adding quality talent each yr, where else was there to go but up?
You can’t seem to get beyond the teams past, both before the Woodson era or during it. What he did for the team when it was developing was great, and he got paid for that, as well as a new contract. But we are dealing with the here and now ASTRO, and it’s no longer a matter of what he’s doing FOR the team, it’s a matter of what he’s doing TOO the team. This isn’t the young, inexperienced and limited Hawks of the past that need’s an overseering taskmaster.
The current Hawk team is far more talented, experienced, versatile, athletic and mature than any of Woodson’s former teams. Therefore, they need more input, strategy, direction, inclusion and structure, and our boy Woody is proving he’s not up to the task. His 1st 3-4yrs, he kept the team going, but his last 2yrs, he’s held the team back. He’s proven he can get more out of less, but when given more, he gets less.
cp
February 21st, 2010
2:27 pm
I read that teams are working out Von Wafer. Would be a nice guy to have come off the bench. Good defender and can score. I would rather have him than Mario but I doubt we even show intrest.
Jason
February 21st, 2010
2:40 pm
I honestly don’t have a question about this game b/c none of it surprises me. I’ve watch year after year as the fact that we’ve steadily increased our win total year after year overshadows the fact that “Coach” Woodson refuses to play his bench, ride Joe Johnson into the ground, and leave the team exhausted by playoff time. What I want to know is, with the combination of length and athleticism we have, why the Hawks didn’t make a run at Mike D’Antoni when he left Phoenix??? The style of play fits the playes we have ( Horford and Smith run the floor very well and Bibby is very good at distributing the ball on the fast break) Everyone in and/or around the league seems to only talk about how “athletic” a team we are, why not bring in a coach that will maximize their strengths rather than play the starters 40 minutes a game in the regular season and give them a 5-hour energy and a pat on the butt when the playoffs roll around???
vava74
February 21st, 2010
2:48 pm
Mike D’Antoni is an overrated coach who rode Steve Nash’s back during his best years.
Not a terrible coach, but not nearly good enough.
Jason
February 21st, 2010
2:59 pm
well at this point I’ve run out of frustration with Woodson. So hopefully we make a deep run in the playoffs and he can prove me wrong b/c I deeply hope this isn’t the best he can come up with
All I'm Saying Is...
February 21st, 2010
3:00 pm
VaVa74 – Excellent post!
I didn’t see the game so my post is based purely on Woddy’s comments. I’m sorry to be so harsh but Woody is an idiot if it took this game for him to realize the implications of soley relying on his starters. Phoenix may not even make the playoffs and if they do, they will be a 7 or 8 seed most likely yet for him to think like this and to articulate what his thinking was shows how little he has learned and how dense he is despite the talent he now has at his disposal. The bench he has now is nothing like the bench he was stuck with when the Hawks played the Celtics in the first round of the playoffs a couple of years ago. It is inexcusable and a terminating offense, in my book, for him to make a stupid decision like he did against the Suns. (If this were hockey and he were the coach of the NJ Devils, their GM, Lou something or other would fire him because he did just that towards the end of the season before the playoffs started despite the fact that his team had a playoff spot.)
I just hope Rick Sund is paying attention because without even trying I can think of two coaches (Avery Johnson and Byron Scott) who have taken teams to the NBA Finals who are likely available to take over this team and no doubt will instantly have much respect as soon as they walk into the locker room.
You had better tighten up your act, Woody, and not screw this team up with your stupid decisons (and I say stupid because he ought to know better by now).
LET’S GO HAWKS!
niremetal
February 21st, 2010
3:01 pm
Vava,
Gotta disagree with you on that one. Nash never reached his peak until he started playing for D’Antoni, and didn’t play at the same level when D’Antoni left – until, that is, D’Antoni’s former assistant Gentry re-implemented D’Antoni’s offensive system this past summer. Coach and player drove each other, same way as Sloan rode Stockton/Malone and vice versa.
Jason
February 21st, 2010
3:13 pm
niremetal
I used D’Antoni as an example but thats what i feel is lacking in Atlanta. Woodson does not strike me as the kind of coach who can cultivate team and bring out their true potential. He seems like a very good assistant coach who, in a limited role, can be useful in a complementary capacity to the head coach (i.e. his time with the Detroit Pistons) Its not that I enjoy ragging on Woodson, becuase that would mean that my team is not performing to its capabilities otherwise I would have no just cause to do so. I just see so much potential talent on this team, even as they have improved.
And with the VERY REAL possibility that the team won’t have Joe Johnson to lean on after this season, the Atlanta Hawks will need someone leading them that will cultivate them and maximize their strengths
I am and have been a RABID Alabama Crimson Tide fan my whole life. SO I have seen teams settle for being above average until they are coached by someone who shows them they have the ability to be extraordinary
darrell starks
February 21st, 2010
3:51 pm
CAVS MISSING BIG Z ALREADY YOU CAN SEE THE DIFFERENCE WHEN SHAQ COME OUT.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!
darrell starks
February 21st, 2010
3:53 pm
This is why we must get big Z 2 block the cavs from getting him plus our front court will be stronger.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!
Clyde
February 21st, 2010
3:53 pm
Jason u in the right place. Woody = Mike Shula
ROLL TIDE
ILL-logical
February 21st, 2010
3:53 pm
Some excellent analysis today thanks to vava74’s cogent posts. If there is a truely culpable party in the scenario, it is ownership. Their management and finacial shortcomings compound whatever coaching and general management weakness the Hawks have.
Case in point, last season before the playoffs Sund tried to work a deal with the Clippers for Chris Kamen but the owners blocked it. Would the Hawks won a championship with Kamen? Probably not but they would have at least one more big to battle against the Celts,Cavs and Magic and after watching the Cav -Magic contest it is clear that you need to have a strong inside force(s) to play with these guys. and the Hawks do not have that force, partly because of the failure of the ownership and partly because the current head coach will not deveolp the players he has or change his “system” to better accomadate the talent he has.
Until or unless the ownership’s issues are resolved, the discussions will only address the symptoms and not the problem.
jay dubu
February 21st, 2010
4:05 pm
Did Woody have to wait until the game was overto realize that he should have played Joe Smith more?
Astro Joe
February 21st, 2010
4:13 pm
Strickland, how many of the top 8 teams in the league are over the luxury tax threshold? Does spending big bucks on bench players likely mean that you have more depth than a team whose bench likely averages a salary of around $2M (excluding Jamal)?
You will never find a post of mine where I give Woody “sole” credit for the team’s performance. I understand the definition of “team”. I speak about the WHOLE being greater than the individual parts. We do NOT have an elite coach. We do NOT have an elite player. We do NOT have an elite payroll. But somehow, we’re sitting with an elite record after 50 games. It seems to me the answer is simple, the whole (Woody, Marvin, Joe, Mo, Mario, RandMo, the ASG and everyone else) have formed a team that is among the league’s elite. Sorry if I refuse to highlight the shortcomings of the coach… it’s not as if there is not another dozen or so around here to provide that perspective. And if you choose to believe that this steady increase in wins happens completely in spite of Woody, have at it. I think it is an absurd notion, but hey, shout at the rain if you choose. Just don’t hinder me while I bask in the sunlight.
vava74
February 21st, 2010
4:26 pm
Nire,
i agree that D’Antoni – Nash relationship was symbiotic but the point I wanted to make was that D’Antoni’s system does not work without a top notch offensive PG which something we obviously lack.
Consequently, D’Antoni with this roster would not work and that was the main point of my rushed post.
ant banks
February 21st, 2010
4:33 pm
ASTRO,
you know i am a hawk lover but they will be in trouble come playoffs. i am not sure that we will make it out of the first round, especially if we play toronto, chicago, or miami. then the 2nd round really is a wash.
while watchin’ this season playout, i am also thinkin’ about next yr. with or without joe johnson we in trouble. with him, we can’t get out of the 2nd round without him, who is out there for us?
vava74
February 21st, 2010
4:33 pm
Nire,
Strictly speculating and without jumping immediately into the fire Woody bandwagon (in my book he still has the rest of the season to correct his shortcomings):
have seen Bill Laimbeer’s work in the WNBA? Is he any good? My guess is that he probably learned with one if the best (Daly) and has a good bball knowledge and that his success with the Detroit ladies could be linked to his ability.
Obviously I could be wrong.
ant banks
February 21st, 2010
4:41 pm
VAVA74,
no mo’ detroiters coachin’ here. that is where woody came from. if we lose woody get some new blodd in here. what worked with the girls won’t work here anyway. there ain’t no lebrons, kobes, or dwade with the girls.
Grandad
February 21st, 2010
4:58 pm
vava74:
Two items – from ’salt’ Mahorn was lost in expansion draft [minnesota]and they tried fervently to get him back.
The reason I mention this is I’m wondering if he could overcome WNBA
incident and become a men’s asst. eventually leading to an HC pos.
As for D’Antoni I think he would be wonderful here, ‘coaching up’ our gifted athletes.
CP – Why even look @ Von Wafer or anyone else. Wdsn’s not gonna play ‘em.
darrell starks – You’re my hero.
nire – What would we do w/o you? You’re our resident ‘capologist’.
O'Brien
February 21st, 2010
5:03 pm
Mike Woodson: “I had to see something for myself,” Woody said. “I condensed things last night almost like it was a playoff game, when your backs are against the wall and you have to have one.”
So does this mean that the next time our backs are against the wall, and we “have to have one” Woody will give his bench more PT, since his starters didn’t deliver this time?
I also think Woody deserves some of the credit for our wins. Unfortunately, there are games where I think he is a major contributor as to why we lose.
@ Vava, good observations. If regular fans can make these observations, why can’t Woody? How come he has no strategy? How come he never tries anything different? And that has nothing to do with the quality of our bench players.
Melvin, nire,
I could be wrong, but at his age, I dont think money will be the reason that determines where JJ signs. I think it will be based on how competitive the team will be, and how comfortable he thinks he will fit with the team’s players.
Now if you’re the Hawks, do you offer JJ 6 years, $119 mil? Thats basically $20 mil per year on average? My opinin, I would gladly offer him the 5 years, $96 mil. But a 6th year? i dont know, because he will be 34, and who knows how his body will hold up since he has played so many minutes over his career?
bfmb
February 21st, 2010
5:05 pm
woody is the best coach!!!! what are yall talking about.he gave the pistons a championship!!!like he will make the hawks 1 day.
sirluciouscp
February 21st, 2010
5:22 pm
Woody is a moron, can we get a real coach please.
BirdDawg
February 21st, 2010
5:41 pm
To vava, I’m giving you more props. Great post. You should keep it up.
To AstroJoe, don’t just consider the overall, look at specifics. True enough, the Hawks are winning and as fans, we are happy about that, but as a true fan, you should see that this team has the talent to be so much better than they are right now. BK was called a bonehead, sometimes by myself, but looking at this team and the tremendous talent it has, it appears maybe he wasn’t so boneheaded after all. Not to say he was a great GM, but at least now we can see his vision come to fruition. And yes, this team is winning in spite of Woodson due to that great talent. If you really look, you will see that this team is making the same mistakes and losing in the same ways they were when Woodson first got here, just not as often…experience will do that for you in spite of horrible coaching. Another point, Michael Jordan’s Bulls and Kobe’s Lakers were winning before Phil Jackson arrived, but they didn’t win a championship until he got there. So talented teams can win without a great coach, they just won’t win a championship without a great coach and that’s where the Hawks are right now. This team has NBA championship level talent with AAU level coaching and that just isn’t going to get them to the promised land.
Thinking ahead
February 21st, 2010
5:44 pm
Deron Williams is unhappy with the Jazz. Let’s do a sign and trade with JJ. Then do a Bibby trade for a guard. We also need a sign and trade with Chills to get something out of him.
Najeh Davenpoop
February 21st, 2010
5:45 pm
“Because if this team is competing for a top 3 playoff spot entirely in spite of Woody, then BK clearly needs to be receiving weekly thank you notew from this fan base (and Sund too).”
As a matter of fact, you are right. I’ve felt for a while that Rick Sund gets an undue amount of credit for the Hawks’ current success that BK really deserves. Jamal Crawford is the only key Hawk that is a Sund acquisition. BK is often judged by the players he didn’t get (Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Al Jefferson, Rudy Gay, Brandon Roy, Rajon Rondo) but the fact is that he did put together the core of a team that is now in the top 8 of the NBA.
Of course, before any of us go overboard giving BK props, the truth is if the Hawks didn’t luck into the #3 pick in 2007, they would still be sucking now in all likelihood. Luck plays a major role in every successful team.
Najeh Davenpoop
February 21st, 2010
5:48 pm
“Now if you’re the Hawks, do you offer JJ 6 years, $119 mil? Thats basically $20 mil per year on average? My opinin, I would gladly offer him the 5 years, $96 mil. But a 6th year? i dont know, because he will be 34, and who knows how his body will hold up since he has played so many minutes over his career?”
Worst case, if he does break down by age 34, he would represent a massive expiring contract that the Hawks will be able to turn into future assets. I don’t think the possibility of him losing a step at age 34 should be a barrier to the Hawks doing all they can to keep him.
The only reason I would be willing to see the Hawks part with Joe Johnson is if they are confident they can replace him with Dwyane Wade. And considering any team that acquires Wade would probably have to execute a sign and trade, I don’t see that happening.
Najeh Davenpoop
February 21st, 2010
5:56 pm
As far as the Joe Johnson to New York rumors, I am pretty sick of the sense of entitlement New York sports fans and media have. The Knicks may be located in the biggest city in America, but they have been irrelevant as a basketball franchise for a while now. This constant ESPN-fed story of free agents joining that joke of a team has become one of the most annoying stories of this NBA season. I really hope LeBron, D-Wade, Joe Johnson, etc. use the Knicks as nothing more than a bargaining chip and that team ends up having to overpay mediocre players to use its cap space like Detroit did last offseason.
Expectations to high
February 21st, 2010
6:05 pm
While Vara made many good points so have Ken and Astro. I would be on the side of moderate frustration concerning our team. I have not forgot the rise of the past 4 years. Last year were a top 12 team at best and this year I expect a top 6-8 team at best. Of course we have the smallest payroll of any of these teams. All this talk about championships is not being realistic.
What we have not discussed much is the upcoming CBA. A harder cap only rewards teams like the Hawks who put a competitive team on the floor while spending 10-24 million less.
Nelson is what – like 2nd in wins in the NBA? He is a corporate jerk. I would pick Woody any day. xxx and ooo’s does not rate so high in the grand scheme of things. Talent on the floor rules.
Expectations to high
February 21st, 2010
6:20 pm
I do not blame Sund for Joe Smith. Most of us cheered his decision. We did not expect the demise of Bibby and Evans. While many hope for Teague he his a second to third project at best. A team that cannot throw money at problems has few options.
Reality
February 21st, 2010
6:29 pm
Love to see Boston go down. Sometimes you don’t have to win. We have blown opportunities against teams that we should beat. But who hasn’t. This year the NBA is about parity.
Geemack
February 21st, 2010
6:52 pm
Ken Strickland
My question is how is Woody holding them back? You act like this team should be winning titles.
vava74
February 21st, 2010
7:01 pm
Grandad,
thanks for the correction. I was not enterily sure of what happened with Mahorn.
ILL-logical
February 21st, 2010
7:04 pm
The challenge ownership faces with w/not to re-sign Joe is that if you give him the max deal, where do you find the funds to add the other missing pieces to put together a championship team?
And they can’t continue to say that the current roster will win a championship with just some more experirnce.
As far as a new coach, the same issue there: to get a championship caliber coach, you have to pay big bucks. Can they afford to pay a star,superstar money; add another piece-a real center AND pay a big time coach? You tell me.
Reality
February 21st, 2010
7:27 pm
ILL-logical
I agree 100%
be real, we have to ride out the CBA abd see what happens.Give Joe a one to two year contract and see what happens.
niremetal
February 21st, 2010
7:36 pm
If we only offer JJ a 1-2 year contract, he’ll be out of here faster than you can count to 3. And we wouldn’t get jack back for him because multiple other teams would have no trouble convincing him to sign there instead of here.
Blast
February 21st, 2010
8:17 pm
Bibby! Missed shot and a turnover!
What is wrong with Mike? Never seen him play so bad for so long a stretch!
BirdDawg
February 21st, 2010
9:33 pm
Wow! So we, as fans of a very talented Hawks team should not expect them to compete for a championship?!!! Well, I stand corrected. I guess we should all be satisfied with second round sweeps every year and have a parade every time they take their second round opponent to seven games. This team has the talent to have one of the best records in the NBA, even with a crappy coach, but we shouldn’t want them to compete for a championship. I suppose that since they were so bad before, we should all settle for mediocre coaching even though this team has more talent than a lot of the elite teams in the league. Well, I guess the flaw in my thinking has been exposed. Let’s all cheer for another second round sweep, that will make the “real” Hawks fans very happy. Why even take it that far, why not just cheer for them to take their first round opponent to seven games and be satisfied with that? It’s better than they were six years ago, right? Unbelievable.