Atlanta Hawks (no) trade primer
Los Angeles–My editor sent me a note today with a question: “Why AREN’T the Hawks in the Stoudemire chase?”
So I stopped staring out at my balcony view of Marina del Rey long enough to collect my thoughts on the matter. Tough gig.
I know it’s the kind of question Hawks fans have, too. They look at their team’s holes, hear about all the big deals going down (or being talked about) in the league and wish the Hawks would get in on Stoudemire or some other stud.
So I will attempt to answer my boss’s question and yours without boring or confusing you:
1. The Suns are looking to shed salary and the Hawks have no large expiring contracts to match up with Amare’s $16.4 million salary other than Joe Johnson’s $15 million.
2. The Hawks aren’t willing to deal J.J. or other core players with value (Smoove, Jamal and Horford) and haven’t received interest in players they might be willing to part with.
3. Hawks ownership, which still must maintain flexibility for its efforts to re-sign Johnson this summer, isn’t inclined to take on future salary. Part of the reason the Suns are looking to deal Stodemire is his $17.7 million player option for next season. Even if Stoudemire doesn’t invoke the option, he’ll be looking to re-sign for a long-term deal.
Those explanations can apply to why the Hawks aren’t on any of the big money guys you hear in trade rumors. It doesn’t make sense to trade J.J., Smoove or Horford (who remember is still a great bargain at $4.3 million). The Hawks just don’t have any other real assets (expiring contracts, young starters on the rise) or the financial wherewithal to make a major deal.
And all of you including Marvin Williams in your wishful trade thinking need to remember that he’s a base-year compensation player. Assuming another team covets Williams, which is no sure thing considering his decline in production, the Hawks can only use half of his $7.5 million salary under the traded player exception for teams over the salary cap.
In other words, if they traded Williams they could only take back 125 percent plus $100,00 of $3.75 million, or about $4.8 million, instead of $8.9 million. For Williams this holds true until after June 30. The BYC rule is designed to prevent teams from exploiting a loophole in the traded player exception and as you can see it serves as a strong disincentive to trade players like Williams.
– The Hawks still aren’t getting calls about Johnson because there’s no point. The Hawks aren’t dealing him.
– From what I’m hearing, there’s nothing to that rumor about the Hawks looking to deal Mo Evans and a throw-in contract to Milwaukee for Kurt Thomas. It didn’t make much sense when I heard it because the Hawks don’t seem to have much enthusiasm for Thomas and the Bucks aren’t looking to add future salary (Mo has a player option for $2.5 million for next season).
Maybe Thomas would add a bit of defensive toughness and vet leadership but he’s not the big body the Hawks need. And who would be the Hawks’ wing off the bench if Mo is gone?
– The Hawks are interested in Boston forward Rasheed Wallace but the Celtics apparently aren’t interested in dealing him. It was probably a long shot anyway since (here it is again) ownership doesn’t seem inclined to take on future money. Wallace has two years and about $13 million left on his contract after this season.
– I was surprised to see the Clippers deal Marcus Camby to Portland for Travis Outlaw and Steve Blake. The Clippers sent away a good player with an expiring $7.5 million contract (and who had expressed interest in staying with the team) for two decent players with expiring contracts.
The Hawks like Camby, who I think would be a great fit, but they wouldn’t have been to use their players with expiring deals to match his salary in a trade. Also, the Clippers apparently needed a backup point guard for the short term and the Hawks don’t have one to offer with an expiring deal. The Clippers also will receive cash in the deal and maybe that was the main consideration.
– One good thing about the relative quiet around the Hawks this week: no distractions.
“Haven’t said not one word (about trades),” Woody said. “I’m sure these guys are aware of (the deadline). I haven’t heard anything about our team in terms of trade. Most of these guys besides the ‘rook (Jeff Teague) have been around a long time and know sometimes your name will be mentioned in trade rumors. It’s part of the game.”
MC
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237 comments Add your comment
Steve
February 16th, 2010
8:08 pm
This may be saying the same thing, but the Hawks have two issues on the trade front:
1. Not enough high/expiring contracts
2. Too many reasonable/rookie contracts
The combination of those two make it nearly impossible to even make a deal. The assets that teams want from us are on (relatively) reasonable salaries, and we’re not in a position where it is worth spending more – 1 player isn’t going to win us a championship. The hard work will need to get done this summer…I almost feel sorry for Sund (but I’d take his job in a heartbeat)
CrazyDIAMOND
February 16th, 2010
8:09 pm
Nice analysis – thanks. No need to reshape the team now. The offseason will be intersting, though.
Michael Cunningham
February 16th, 2010
8:13 pm
@steve: yes, since they (understandably) don’t want to deal their one big expiring contract (J.J.). they could get something for Smoove of course but he’s getting better and is part of their future. also, i’d add to your list mid-salaried vets with long-term deals and declining production in Bibby and Zaza.
NDiiBaBii
February 16th, 2010
8:15 pm
We need to keep our entire team, I don’t want Marvin Williams going anywhere, the most humble guy on the team. I even witnessed him give a less fortunate child his expensive coat off of his back, lol I know that’s irrelevant, but we have something special, we need to keep it and work on the areas that need improving, work on our rookies. If Joe stays he stays, if he leaves we can find somebody better!
Astro Joe
February 16th, 2010
8:23 pm
MC, nice job of making a complex issue easy to understand. I anxiously await how you will address our salary cap situation during Joe’s upcoming contract negotiations. I heard some idiots on Atlanta sports radio suggest that we simply use the salary slotted on Joe to go get D. Wade. Is it too much to ask sports radio announcers to have some basic knowledge of the CBA? If they can take the time to learn about the impact of signing bonuses on the NFL salary cap or arbitration for baseball players, surely they can learn the basics of the Bird rights and other basic NBA CBA rules. Edumacation… that’s what we need. Some edumacation.
LY Munz
February 16th, 2010
8:30 pm
Marvin can give out 1,000 coats to the homeless. That still doesn’t change the fact that he flat out has declined in a big way at age 23. That does not reflect well on him exhibiting any kind of major improvement to warrant the 5 years he has remaining on his deal.
Unfortunately though, his contract coupled with his increasingly low value make him impossible to trade as MC said. If Sund can get creative and try to pull off a three way deal shedding Bibby and our small expirings such as Smith, Morris etc. to aquire a more athletic/younger pg like Devin Harris than that would be huge. I just don’t think we have the resources to do so.
Astro Joe
February 16th, 2010
8:34 pm
Here’s a trade that works for both teams and meets salary requirements:
Hawks trade Bibby, Zaza and Evans to Raptors for Calderon, Nesterovic and Wright.
We get a good (not great) PG and 2 expiring contracts attached to bench players with good size. It adds almost $4M to our cap space this summer.
Raptors save money later on because when Calderon is in his fianl year, Zaza will be making half of Jose… so it provides long-term savings. Jack has become their starting PG and Bibby would bring some vet leadership, Zaza some rugged toughness to their soft front court and Mo is a stabilizing force behind their rookie SG, Derozen. Maybe a surprising run this summer may help them retain Bosh.
Not as awe-inspiring as trading Randolph Morris for Brook Lopez… but it’s a little more practical.
MS
February 16th, 2010
8:40 pm
I think Hawks can make a trade that entices JJ to stay, improves team and is salary neutral.
ATL – receives Rasheed Wallace and Ryan Gomes
BOS – receives Marvin Williams
MEM – receives Brian Scalabrine and Zaza Pachulia and ATL 1st round pick for 2010
Obviously Atlanta is better as Gomes and Williams are equivalent, but no comparison between Zaza and Rasheed.
Boston trade allows them to get much younger and clears room for Antwan Jamison acquisition.
Memphis does trade (salary neutral long term) plus another first round draft pick.
Ben
February 16th, 2010
8:46 pm
Basketball is a big men sport…Unfortunately, the Hawks lack those…even Kobe can’t win without a true 5…..
The Truth
February 16th, 2010
8:48 pm
As with Marvin, isn’t Bibby BYC?
Melvin
February 16th, 2010
8:49 pm
Astro,
You know this Franchise doesn’t have the “You know what” to trade Bibby.
richbrave
February 16th, 2010
9:17 pm
Well, HAWKS fans, the WIZARDS went to take a dump and the HOGS ate ‘um. The BUTLER boat has sailed, and JAMISON to CLEVELAND appears to be inching closer to reality as the dead-line approaches.
DREW GOODEN doesn’t want to be a WIZARD, and is saying he’ll sit out the balance of the year rather than do so. The other three former MAVS aren’t happy either, although not quite as outspoken as GOODEN.
WIZ are trying to pry Z, MOON, and a #1 from CAVS for JAMISON, and would you believe it, MIKE JAMES. GRUNFELD certainly IS a wizard if he can move that atrocious 6.5 million expiring contract for anything. J-CRIT will be available if you want a home-boy next year.
And speaking of that, KEVIN ANDERSON (N. DeKALB) and DAVID GONZOLVEZ (Marietta) have carried my SPIDERS into the #25 slot this week in the AP poll. U-u-u-h-h-h-rah!!!!
If all the former MAVS and current WIZ on expirings make like collective trees and leaf, the D.C. club will be down to eight warm bodies under contract next season, and one is on a player option. Even if they keep both their picks and add the CAVS #1, they still need a minimum of three JOE SMITH’s from FA, or from developmental league/European personnel. And there’s still ARENAS to deal with. What a frickin’ mess.
NDiiBaBii
February 16th, 2010
9:17 pm
Lets be real Rasheed Wallace doesn’t want to come here, he was here for a day already, did you guys forget & he was very happy to leave.
Zaza and Marvin aren’t going anywhere, they are responsible for a lot of us who are actually season ticket holders, Bibby on the other hand can go, that’s JJ’s bff on the team and Bibby is horrible this season. Marvin may not be playing as well as he could be, but lets not forget who stepped up during the playoffs when JJ wasn’t doing anything Marvin and Jsmoove! He’s being a productive enough member of the team, if anyone was to be traded let it be Bibby!
kjb
February 16th, 2010
9:21 pm
please make a deal!!!
sansho1
February 16th, 2010
9:46 pm
Rasheed Wallace is now a very bad ballplayer.
Astro Joe
February 16th, 2010
9:48 pm
Blast, from the previous blog, Jamal had to agree not to opt out of the current season’s contract. Imagine if we had traded for him and the next day, he opted out… we’d be left with nothing. But it was just for this season, he does not have an opt-out clause for this summer. And no one game can be used to evaluate anything. Heck, I watched Speedy steal something like 7 balls from the Cavs in one of his few healthy appearances as a Hawk. Like I said, one game is not good for evaluating anything.
MC, tell Jamal to stop messing with those coyote ugly ladies, then he won’t hurt his shoulder trying to gnaw it off.
Best wishes to George Karl for a speedy and long-lasting recovery.
ILL-logical
February 16th, 2010
9:50 pm
People,people: what part of won’t,can’t and ain’t do you not understand? The Hawks won’t make a move because they are living in the now(more on that later); they can’t because of the financial realities surrounding the franchise; and they ain’t because they have no intention of adding any more salary expense.
The franchise is at a critical junction under current ownership. If Joe decides that there is no way that he will ever get the pieces around him to win a championship here he is gone. Period. And if he goes, Woodson is history. No iso Joe no offense from a Woodson coached Hawk team.
Add the fact that while many NBA players love living in the ATL; few, if any superstars want to play for a fiscally challenged organization- Chris Paul being the possible exception- and you have an interesting summer coming up.
JeJe
February 16th, 2010
9:56 pm
THIS TEAM DOES NOT HAVE A PLAYER TO COMMIT A HARD FOUL.
THAT AND A COMBINATION OF WOODY’S UNWILLINGNESS TO USE A BENCH PLAYER BESIDES CRAW AS A SPARK WILL LEAD TO A SWEEP IN THE 2ND ROUND
THIS IS A SOFT BASKETBALL TEAM AND YOU WILL ALL SEE IN THE 2ND ROUND YET AGAIN
HOW ABOUT JOE SAYS “I” INSTEAD OF “WE” FOR ONCE. 80 % OF THE TIME HE’S THE ONE BEING SELFISH. JUST LOOK AT HIS NUMBERS LAST YR VS THIS YEAR. HOPE HE LEAVES THIS SUMMER SO WE CAN MAKE A RUN AT WADE. OH WAIT, WE CAN’T. WE HAVE THE WORST OWNERSH!T IN THE NBA
CONTENDERS MY ASS
Melvin
February 16th, 2010
9:58 pm
NDiiBaBii,
Did Marvin even played in the playoffs last year??? lol
darrell starks
February 16th, 2010
9:59 pm
NO TRADE OUT FIRST ROUND.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!
UGA
February 16th, 2010
9:59 pm
Craig Smith from the Clippers. Get him, he can score with his back to the basket. Face it, we’re not making a huge deal until the next year or two if needed.
The Sham
February 16th, 2010
10:01 pm
@MC:
I agree that JJ isn’t going any where, but speaking hypothetically, do you think if they were to trade JJ for Amare, that Marvin has the ca-hones to fill one of two roles: either Joe’s shoes or Jamal’s role and let Jamal be the big shooter? With the big 3 then down low (JS, AS, AH) can pick up the scoring slack and that will force Marvin to step up to his ability.
I know it changes the chemistry of this team dramatically, but my thinking is that without a move like this, we are about to peak and resemble the Steve Smith and Mookie team that flat lined… The Cavs are just too good and we can’t control Howard enough to get out of the East…
darrell starks
February 16th, 2010
10:03 pm
If the hawks play HORNETS, OR HEAT in the first round say bye bye to coach woody.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!
Najeh Davenpoop
February 16th, 2010
10:09 pm
Drew Gooden is not a cure-all for the Hawks’ weaknesses, but considering it would take literally nothing to sign him, it would be monumentally foolish for the Hawks not to try. Any trade proposition can be dismissed by pointing out the Hawks’ lack of assets, but I would think the revenue the Hawks get from one playoff game would be way more than enough to pay Gooden’s salary for the rest of the year.
darrell starks
February 16th, 2010
10:10 pm
SHAM why you dont think joe going any where he turn down 4year 64mill?
GO HAWKS
Najeh Davenpoop
February 16th, 2010
10:16 pm
If the Hawks were to make a trade, however, this is one that would definitely help them now:
ESPN Trade Machine
Hawks get Antonio McDyess (2 years left after this one) and Keith Bogans (expiring) from Spurs
Spurs get Maurice Evans (expiring), Joe Smith (expiring), and Jason Collins (expiring) from Hawks
The Hawks get a significant upgrade inside without having to give up any key players, especially since Bogans is an adequate replacement for Evans. The Spurs, who have been rumored to want to dump McDyess’ contract, get expiring contracts in return to free up some cap space for the Tyrus Thomas trade they want to make. McDyess is a proven veteran, and even though he’s over the hill he is still a solid rebounder, shoots well from the field, and is a smart (if physically limited at this point) defender. The big downside, of course, is that he has two years left on his contract after this one, meaning the Hawks will have two veteran backup big men with long-term deals entering this offseason. But at least for the rest of this year, this trade would be worth it. Who knows, maybe McDyess knows a thing or two about guarding Dwight Howard that the rest of the Hawks’ front court doesn’t know.
darrell starks
February 16th, 2010
10:16 pm
I remember when the hawks had the best record in the nba, and they traded niq for sorry a$$ danny manning and every thing went down hill.
GO HAWKS!!!!!
cdog
February 16th, 2010
10:17 pm
DON’T ANYONE ELSE QUESTION MIKE WOODSON’S COACHING IF THE HAWKS GET PUT OUT OF THE PLAYOFFS.ITS THAT DUMB GM NAMED RICK SUND WHO SHOULD BE FIRED IF HE FAILS TO IMPROVE THE HAWKS MISSING PIECE. THE MONEY HE SHELLED OUT TO ZSA ZSA PACHILIA COULD HAVE HELPED.HE PLAYS LIKE HE HAS A STAVE STUCK UP HIS BACK, IN 0NE PLACE
darrell starks
February 16th, 2010
10:18 pm
NAJEH IN WHAT WAY THAT TRADE IMPROVE THE HAWKS?
GO HAWKS!!!!!!
Najeh Davenpoop
February 16th, 2010
10:22 pm
Darrell, unless you think Joe Smith is as good as Antonio McDyess, it’s an obvious improvement. Will it make the Hawks the favorites to win the title? Obviously not, but it will make them much less likely to get roasted inside against Dwight Howard in the 2nd round of the playoffs.
O'Brien
February 16th, 2010
10:26 pm
AJ, Melvin,
Woody does not have the “you know what” to let Bibby go.
During the offseason, I talked about using the mid-level to get Jack, and let Bibby go. I thought Jack would be better for us because he is younger, cheaper, and a better defender than Bibby (I also liked Sessions).
But Jack is not the shooter Bibby is. Jack eventually signed for 5 years, $20 mil (Pacers did not match the Raptors offer). But Sund decided to go with continuity, which was fine, except he gave Bibby 3 years. That 3rd year will be tough for us, because that means we can’t trade him next season. Hopefully, he will find the fountain of youth.
Best wishes goes out to George Karl, fighting throat cancer.
MC,
Thanks for the trade explanations. The Hawks players and coaches will have to find a way to improve from within. If Marvin can step up, and if ZaZa can go back to being the ZaZa of old, and Woody can learn how to make adjustments, this team will be very competitive against anybody.
Najeh,
Spurs are also looking to trade Roger Mason too.
AJ,
I agree that once JJ resigns, Hawks could look to trade Crawford. For his $10 mil salary, we should be able to get at least 2 solid assets (we have lots of needs; solid backup PG, solid backup SF, solid backup PF).
The NBA is so crazy. Bobcats have beaten the Cavs twice this season. And the Nets have beaten the Bobcats twice this season.
doc
February 16th, 2010
10:29 pm
i would not want sheed for half the contract he has over three years. durn i didnt realize he took ainge so bad. ainge got lucky once, not again.
jamison is a better fit than amare for the cavs, smoother, able to do more on his own and will be a better fit overall in their scheme. scary if he ends up there. wish we could have somehow done a zaza, marvin, mo and joe smith for what the mavs got.
doc
February 16th, 2010
10:31 pm
o’b man i cant believe what you just said about karl. he looks in terrible health before that news but geez.
JeJe
February 16th, 2010
10:43 pm
RICK SUND PAID MARVIN 8 MILL A YEAR (ABOUT THAT MUCH) FOR 4 MORE YEARS. WE HAVE BIBBY FOR 2 MORE YEARS
NO ONE WANTS THESE PLAYERS UNTIL THEIR EXPIRING YEARS. FOR MARVIN, THAT’S IN LIKE 4 YEARS SINCE HE HAS A PLAYER OPTION ON HIS LAST YEAR
LOL NO ONE WANTED THIS GUY, YET WE GIVE HIM EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTED.
GOOD JOB SUND
NO WONDER YOU ARE A !@#$%Y GM. YOU’VE WON NOTHING IN THIS LEAGUE
Melvin
February 16th, 2010
10:47 pm
Hold up before we get rid of our 1st round draft pick. I found our backup SF that’s project to be a late 1st round draft pick.
Pros- good size, can create off the dribble and can shoot it from deep.
Cons- he may be Marvin distant relative b/c they look alike…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERcmFdlrrXY&feature=player_embedded
siskel_god
February 16th, 2010
10:48 pm
Just my opinion, the Hawks aren’t making any deals because they don’t have too. This is a real good team and a team that can make a little noise in the playoffs. They may not be a championship team, but I don’t think Amare or anybody else that is available is going to put them over the hump. Wait on free agency and try and re-sign Joe and bring in Bosh and this will be a championship team.
Traceman
February 16th, 2010
10:53 pm
I just don’t get some of the proposals here. Why on earth would we be focusing on trying to trade JJ or Jamal rather than figuring out a way to keep both of them long term? Neither is a PG but both are excellent ballhandlers who have proven that they can play significant minutes together in the backcourt.
They compliment each other SO WELL. JJ is an all around great player who MUST be accounted for at all times. He creates mismatches against virtually every team we play. Jamal is versatile as well and he gives us that MUCH needed “KILLER” in the 4th quarter that all the great teams have. He may not be the all around player that D Wade, LeBron or Kobe are but other than Kobe, I’d just as soon have Jamal take a big shot as ANY guy in the NBA. His rep as a great clutch player preceded his arrival and he has done nothing but enhance that rep since he’s been here.
IF we have to spend HUGE dollars to keep JJ (I don’t consider a deal starting at $15M for JJ huge), I could see the team looking to cut costs to stay under the cap but that doesn’t necessarily mean that Jamal should be the one who has to go. There are other options not named Smoove, Al or Marvin who can be dealt to keep costs at an acceptable level.
Jamal has been GREAT and I LOVE him as a Hawk but when he becomes a FA at age 31, I will be VERY surprised if a team other than us offers him a longterm deal starting at more than the $10M a season he currently makes. More than likey, he will actually have to take a slight cut (as will most players in his situation when the new CBA is negotiated). That being the case, if I were Sund, I’d be trying to figure out how to keep JJ and Jamal beyond next season. I think it can be done.
Najeh Davenpoop
February 16th, 2010
10:53 pm
O’Brien, the only reason I didn’t mention Mason is because he makes $3.5 million this year, and the Hawks simply don’t have the expiring contracts to match him and McDyess combined. Purely on the court, between Mason and Bogans, I’d definitely rather have Mason.
darrell starks
February 16th, 2010
10:54 pm
MARVIN, BIBBY, AND TEAGUE AND OUR FIRST FOR IGG, JRUE HOLLIDAY, CARNEY this trade put us at the top.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!
Melvin
February 16th, 2010
11:05 pm
Astro,
Will you please stop with the Jamal conspiracy. You have already admit that you was wrong about him coming to Hawks and having a positive impact. He has been a welcome addition to this team, community and exceeded expectations. The Hawks would be crazy not to resign him. Why are you trying to run him out of town instead some other overpaid, less contributing player(s) on this team???
niremetal
February 16th, 2010
11:07 pm
Good work, MC. But it’s amazing how people seem to not read the article before commenting.
darrell starks
February 16th, 2010
11:17 pm
STARTER JAMAL, JOE, IGG, JOSH, HORFORD.
BENCH JRUE, MOE, CARNEY, JOE, ZAZA.
RESERVE WEST, MORRIS
Ramon
February 16th, 2010
11:44 pm
Najeh, I don’t think you can trade players who are signed to the veteran’s minimum.
JeJe
February 16th, 2010
11:57 pm
We really need a SF off the bench. Stackhouse was perfect. He lobbied to come here for like 5 months. How much could this guy have wanted?
HE IS MAKING 679,000 RIGHT NOW WITH MILWAUKEE. THATS HOW MUCH HE COSTS. AND WE COULD HAVE HAD HIM
JESUS CHRIST
Hawks Fan
February 17th, 2010
12:17 am
Tayshaun Prince makes all the sense in the world to get here. We can trade the rights to Childress and Marvin for him. He’s an excellent defender that plays the 3 at 6″9. He also can score. Woody coached him at Detroit, so he knows the system. Everyone says we need a big, but let’s face it, no one in the league is giving up a quality big, and the game has changed so much where you don’t really need a big center. I don’t believe we’d have to give up the house to get Prince here. We can still keep our “key” core players. The Hawks not making any moves shows me that ownership is satisfied with mediocrity. As a life long Hawk fan, I’m sick of the wait and see, and look towards the future crap. Let’s when a damn championship. And waiting for Joe Johnson is bs. He’s shown me nothing to prove he’s a max player. The only guys with heart on this team is Horford, ZaZa, and Crawford. I’m say Josh has heart, but he whines too darn much.
Hawks Fan
February 17th, 2010
12:19 am
Tayshaun Prince makes all the sense in the world to get here. We can trade the rights to Childress and Marvin for him. He’s an excellent defender that plays the 3 at 6″9. He also can score. Woody coached him at Detroit, so he knows the system. Everyone says we need a big, but let’s face it, no one in the league is giving up a quality big, and the game has changed so much where you don’t really need a big center. I don’t believe we’d have to give up the house to get Prince here. We can still keep our “key” core players. The Hawks not making any moves shows me that ownership is satisfied with mediocrity. As a life long Hawk fan, I’m sick of the wait and see, and look towards the future crap. Let’s win a damn championship. And waiting for Joe Johnson is bs. He’s shown me nothing to prove he’s a max player. The only guys with heart on this team are Horford, ZaZa, and Crawford. I’d say Josh has heart, but he whines too darn much.
tony
February 17th, 2010
12:56 am
The hawks will never get to the nba finals without a BIG who can put pressure on the opposition frontline! TRADE Joe Johnson to Toronta for Chris Bosh NOW!
kirkinga
February 17th, 2010
1:59 am
It seems as if the Hawks are exactly the team most of us thought they were at the beginning of the season. Coach Woodson has done an acceptable job preventing his contract situation from becoming a distraction.
Organic growth, not trades is what the remainder of this season is all about. I appreciate that the team has provided a bit of suspense about who will win the division, but we expected the Hawks to play into the 2nd Round and at this point, there is no reason to lower that expectation.
Go Hawks!!
Grandad
February 17th, 2010
2:17 am
Wierd time for me to be awake.
N.D. – Per NBA Tr.Mach.:
Mo and either [J. Collins or R. Morris] gets Mason. SA would have to agree of course.
Mason would give us one more shooter to spread the ct., one more scoring option, a hustler on def., but unfortunately one more weapon for Wdsn to mismanage.
Clyde
February 17th, 2010
2:58 am
Jeje welcome to the club. Your posts on this page have made u worthy for entrance into our club of hate.
FIRE WOODY
sansho1
February 17th, 2010
3:41 am
Jerry Stackhouse is now a very bad ballplayer.
Dr.Phil
February 17th, 2010
7:13 am
The Hawks…HA HA! How is this team working for you Atlanta?
spirit
February 17th, 2010
7:26 am
no trade! this hawks team aint oing nowhere. unless you settle for mediocrity. trade zaza, collins, a second round pick and cash consideration for ben wallace and chris wilcox( both expiring contract). the contracts matched. that trade wont make us a championship caliber team but it will give us more chance to get to eastern finals. down the road we would have to face orlando, clevland or boston. we have no chance against those team with our current roster. Ben might be older but he can still defend, wilcox will be a wild card. why wait untill the free agency, let’s try to do something now and then would see
NBA Trade Rumors 2/17/10 « SprungOnSports
February 17th, 2010
7:30 am
[...] and filler for Kurt Thomas trade and the Celtics aren’t trading Rasheed Wallace, reports the Atlanta Journal Constitution. -There will be no Kevin Martin trade but Memphis, New York and New Jersey all like Sergio [...]
O'Brien
February 17th, 2010
8:26 am
Traceman, Melvin,
I would love to see the Hawks resign JJ and Crawford. But I can also see where AJ is coming from. If the Hawks sign JJ for $16-$18 mil, Josh making over $11 mil, and Horford getting a big raise in 2 seasons, the BASG will be hard pressed to find $10 mil to pay a sixth man of the year.
And I only say that because the Spirit are tight with the money. But they will have Bibby coming off the books, and Marvin can be traded for somebody cheaper, so hopefully they can keep both JJ and Crawford.
kirkinga, cosign 1:59 am post. I thought the Hawks would be competitive for a #3 seed (even if they end up beng #4), and thats where they are.
I hope the Hawks stay away from ‘Sheed. Maybe Brandon Bass is available from the Magic, because he gets little to no PT from them and has been complaining (although I dont think the Magic would deal him, and definitely not within the division).
DDawgDavis
February 17th, 2010
8:26 am
Just to fuel the fire and to see what happens, I don’t have the contract information in front of me, but trading my favorite current Atlanta Hawks Josh Smith (refuse to call him JSmoove, crap I just did) for Amar’e Stoudemire is interesting. I hate to give up a “face” of a franchise for a guy who poo-poo’d the idea of coming here a few seasons ago, but Amar’e against Dwight and keeping him off the Heat roster is too interesting not to talk about.
Should’ve gone after Camby.
Sautee
February 17th, 2010
8:41 am
Did I stumble onto some Fantasy League blog?
Most of these trade ideas are ludicrous. Scroll, scroll, scroll.
(not you Najeh).
richbrave
February 17th, 2010
8:44 am
JeJe:
“……………………WE CAN’T. WE HAVE THE WORST OWNERSH!T IN THE NBA”
I beg to differ. Have you noticed the events of this season ongoing in D.C.?
richbrave
February 17th, 2010
8:47 am
Najeh Davenpoop
February 16th, 2010
10:53 pm
“O’Brien, the only reason I didn’t mention Mason is because he makes $3.5 million this year,………..”
Actually, 3.78 million, but who’s counting.
NEW CARS
February 17th, 2010
8:50 am
The Hawks are sort of stuck with what they’ve got for now, which isn’t a terrible thing…It’s just disheartening to see the coach repeat the same mistake from past years…When we get to the playoffs, JJ, Josh and Al are going to be worn down and not ready to put up a fight..One of the basic jobs for any coach or manager is to develop young talent and depth to continue the ball rolling…It’s one thing the Braves did over the past 2 decades and it’s something that Woodson either doesn’t have the patience or aptitude for…He learned from Larry Brown and Mr. Brown’s greatest criticism has always been his lack of patience with young players, starting with Diaw and going through Law, Josh and continuing with Teague and Morris…It’s amazing how other teams like Denver, the Spurs, Celtics and Heat have been able to insert younger players into their rotations and keep winning…If we can’t figure out how to do that, then the steady improvement is going to hit a wall and we’ll return to mediocrity…Just look at what will happen if Joe takes the Knicks’ money and runs…If I knew the ownership would spend the money to replace him and move in a different direction at head coach, it wouldn’t bother me, but who thinks that is going to happen?
Astro Joe
February 17th, 2010
8:52 am
Melvin, it’s not a conspiracy theory. You actually think that Jamal would be giddy about remaining a back-up for what will likely be his last really good contract (most guys don’t get great deals after they tuurn 32)? And if I believe that he would prefer to return to a starting gig, does that make me guilty of having “an agenda”?
Daniel
February 17th, 2010
9:03 am
ditto Sautee- but Najeh I would say McDyess is an upgrade over Joe Smith but I don’t think it is as much of an upgrade as the baggage of the second year on his contract. Bogans/Evans is a wash.
R.U.KIDDEN-ME
February 17th, 2010
9:04 am
@JE JE @9:56 P.M. YOU ARE SPOT ON BRO.!! I COULD NOT HAVE SAID IT ANY BETTER!!
Daniel
February 17th, 2010
9:07 am
I would also like to add that all these complaints about the Hawks making “the same mistakes”. They will never do this or that, yet another this or that. Am I living in an alternate universe or were we happy to make the playoffs with 37 wins just 2 seasons ago and just last year won the first 7 game series in like 40 years? What is this track record of decent mediocrity? We have been AWFUL for a long time with just now our young core developing.
vava74
February 17th, 2010
9:07 am
Melvin,
Nice link. His shot is a bit awkward but seems effective. He also seems to have a nice low post game.
MC, you should forward the link to Sund!
GeeMack
February 17th, 2010
9:18 am
Najeh Davenpoop
That not a good trade senario for the Hawks.
heelsfan
February 17th, 2010
9:19 am
Some of you just dont understand the game. Who can the Hawks trade for to make them a contender. Do you not remeber the 13 game winning seasons. Now the Hawks are consistently making the playoffs. i know we all desire for an NBA championship but it wont happen this year and the league would not let that happen as well. There s no need to trade just keep on building slowly and by the way all of you call for Marvin to be traded, that’s crazy. His numbers are down but Jamal averages 18 and Joe shoots alot more than he has in the past(contract year). Marvin doesn’t even play 30 minutes a game because of Woody’s dumb rotation. So lets just chill and enjoy the ride.
Voice of reason
February 17th, 2010
9:24 am
I d take Stodumire over horford any day of the week, so why cant we just swap the salary and lets take the game to a higher level. All the Hoe ford nut huggers will get over it. Lets maximize the hawks potential.
By the way, where’s Michael Vick when you need him?
Cobb County girl attacked by pit bull-2/17/10, AJC
Voice of reason
February 17th, 2010
9:27 am
heelsfan I hear you. But that means another season or two of listening to the Bubba Crew seethe about their hate and direct it towards Woodson. Why dont we just trade Hoe ford for Amare now and the problem is solved. Championship basketball is on the way.
JeJe
February 17th, 2010
9:30 am
richbrave,
The Wizards’ owner DIED this season (Rest In Peace, Mr. Pollin). That is the reason the team is in disarray. It was a serious disappointment that Caron/Jamison/Arenas didn’t work out, but our team is on the RISE but will stop at a brick wall in the 2nd round again because WE HAVE NO MONEY TO SPEND, OUR GM SUCKS, AND OUR CORE HAS BEEN TOGETHER WAY TOO LONG.
Starting lineups are supposed to change a bit every year or two. Look at the Celtics and Cavs. Woodson THINKS THAT THE SAME STARTING LINEUP FOR US WILL WORK IN EVERY SITUATION. And that’s why he’s a bad coach. He is such a rigid coach and does not listen to his assistants
GeeMack
February 17th, 2010
9:31 am
Astro
From a previous post ” a 4-6 year run like the Kings” is not a good look.
The only thing the Kings have to show for that run are division Championships.
This is something the Hawks experienced in the 80’s and 90’s.
As a life long Hawks fan that’s not very comforting. Going for a champioship will change outlook of the franchise altogther.
I like your post most of the time. They are always well thought out, and very informative, however I think this is where you and I may differ.
I would rather have 4 to 6 run like the Celtics than the King. The Celtics 1 title 2 60 wins season and a 55+ win season this year and 50+ wins next year barring any major injuries.
JeJe
February 17th, 2010
9:35 am
Why the heck do people want Kurt Thomas? We already have like 4 veteran bigs on our bench who Woodson doesn’t use. Isn’t Joe Smith the player Kurt Thomas would be for us? Joe S was balling before that injury. Now he is an atrocious player.
MARVIN AND BIBBY’S CONTRACTS SCREW US OVER. 4 MORE YEARS OF MARVIN’S PISS-POOR 11 PPG EFFORTS WITH MEDIOCRE DEFENSE. LOL
Bad mother shut your mouth!
February 17th, 2010
9:36 am
Daniel, reality does set in. You will never win a championship with our starting center rated as the number 18th center for block shot in the NBA. That is just to weak to even get out of the second round. We will be here another 10 years before you realize that you aint going to win with such a palsy defense. In the half court game of the nba Championship rounds this equates to a sweep or a near sweep. Get real.
Stop blaming Hoe fords lack of defense on the switch. Most coaches Isolate and work hoe ford over, besides if I were the coach Id try to switch and get Josh out of the painted area. Josh plays under the switch defense too and he is an Excellent defender, always among the NBA leaders in block shots.Hoe ford is Number 18th for his position.
The only thing horford can do for josh is get the rebound when josh blocks the shot.
Bad mother shut your mouth!
February 17th, 2010
9:41 am
FIRE SUND!NOW!
Bad mother shut your mouth!
February 17th, 2010
9:41 am
FIRE SUND RIGHT NOW!
Astro Joe
February 17th, 2010
9:44 am
Gee-Mack, I am personally not willing to give the ASG the revenue (season ticket package and team swag) that they need to deliver a title, so I have lower expectations of them because of my unwillingness to do my part. Until the Hawks are averaging top 5-8 in home attendance, I will be content with a Sacramento-type run.
Melvin
February 17th, 2010
9:44 am
Astro,
Let’s stay in the now. Jamal has already said he’s accepted and enjoyed his role here in the ATL. Although he’s not a starter, he plays starter mins and he finished most games on the court. Which I think most players would prefer to do versus hearing their name announce to the crowd and doing chest bumps with their teammates only to watch the crunch time from the bench (Marvin). Keep in mind that Jamal has never been to the playoffs before and being a member of the Hawks will be his 1st opportunity to do so. So, maybe there’s some sentimental/loyalty that will be consider once he become a FA (think Bibby). Believe it or not, not all players go to the highest bidder. Also, playing for the Hawks keeps him closer to his son which lives in the ATL as well.
CRAWFORD = 6th Man Of The Year….
Daniel
February 17th, 2010
9:46 am
as far as Joe goes, I for one am a little hurt by his comments about the Knicks, but I understand it is just a business. I still believe he will stay with the Hawks if for nothing else then the economics of the situation. For people that just say, ahhh let him go and sign someone else. The NBA’s CBA does not work that way. If we lose Joe we would only have about 10 milion available to sign a free agent, so forget Wade, etc..
vava74
February 17th, 2010
9:46 am
Poor Truth Serum… I am sure that his gripe against Al is because when he plays NBA2K10 he can get any stops with Al…
Go and watch your Darryl Dawkins youtube videos…
I guess that when Horford was left in a switch playing one on one against Nash at the end of the game, stayed with him and blocked his shot it was because he does not protect the rim…
terrell
February 17th, 2010
9:46 am
I can name a couple of players who only make half of what Marvin makes, that I’d trade him for. Travis Outlaw 4 mill, Al Thornton 1.9. Lets make a deal. lol! And where in the hell is ACIE LAW? Is he still in the league? Seriously
Daniel
February 17th, 2010
9:52 am
Bad Mother… Your post makes absolutely no sense. Are you blaming Horford for your perceived lack of an NBA championship this year? Woodson? What? So since only one team will win the championship this year, we can blame all the rest on the lack of blocked shots from the 5 position?
O'Brien
February 17th, 2010
10:00 am
Rumor has it the Celtics are trying to acquire Nate Robinson from the Knicks. The main holdup/hiccup is that Robinson is a BYC player. Maybe the Celtics saw how good Nate looked against the Hawks, and figured he would help their chances against us.
With no Camby tonight, and Outlaw just coming back from injury, Hawks should win this game. The key is defend, rebound, and run.
chris
February 17th, 2010
10:13 am
Like trade Maurice Evans and Jason Collins and Randolph Morris to the Lakers for Adam Morrison. Than go out and pick up to BIG Centers D.L or Free Agent.
NBA Rumors: Trade Deadline Approaching « Sports Talk, Rumors and Other Contrarian Insights
February 17th, 2010
10:17 am
[...] -Apparently, the Hawks feel the same as the Magic, according the Atlanta Journal Constitution. Click here for AJC story. [...]
chris
February 17th, 2010
10:19 am
Look trade Maurice Evans and Jason Collins and Randolph Morris to the Lakers for Adam Morrison. Than go out and pick up too Big Centers in the D.L or free agent.
Mike is Back
February 17th, 2010
10:19 am
MC, thanks for the break down of the Hawks trade scenarios…I think it’s a mix blessing for the Hawks…we certainly could have used another Big…all the deals sound great when you first hear them…but the actual benefits are tenuous at the best.
Teams know the Hawks have closed the gap…once we get JJ resigned…we should be in position to make some moves to close the gap even farther in the East. We know where the drop off in production is…hopefully we will see some adjustments in strategy from Woody to address this issue…Before the playoff. lol
MC, I would be curious to know if getting more production from his reserves is major priority for Woody starting out the second half…now that is clear that these are the guys that we are going to depend on in the playoff…what is his plan to get them ready???????????
Also, on RandMo. There was a guy name Solo that struggled mercifully before he finally gained Woody trusts…and gained a little PT. So, my question is if Zaza continues to under achieve would Woody consider giving RandMo more PT, or has RandMo improve to the point where giving him more PT would be a consideration???????????????
Doc, Sheed would have been all right…Woody coached him before…those guys in Detroit have a tight bond with Woody…I think he would have been able to keep him under control. I see, Boston ain’t about to do any thing to give us a leg up. THINK they know we are the number three seed in the East…….hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PMC
February 17th, 2010
10:20 am
So it makes more sense to get NOTHING at all for JJ when he leaves after the season?
THey still need a center and they STILL need a superstar Point Guard. If/When Joe leaves they need a shooting guard that can create.
This team STILL has too many forwards.
PMC
February 17th, 2010
10:21 am
Joe Is LEAVING…. they have to get what they can for him while they can.
jfreak13713
February 17th, 2010
10:24 am
The Hawks probably aren’t good enough to beat the Cavs to reach the finials but I think they can beat anyone else in the East. Sometimes winning a championship THIS year is too unrealistic. I like this team and hope they can sign J.J. plus add a big for next year. Who knows the Hawks get on a roll they can beat ANYONE. It’s nice to have a chance for a change. Thank you HAWKS! Good Luck!
PMC
February 17th, 2010
10:25 am
So as it stands you WILL lose your best player Joe Johnson you still can’t compete (win a playoff series) with Orlando (outside shot maybe) or Cleveland so you still aren’t a championship team as constructed…. why NOT make a move?
PMC
February 17th, 2010
10:27 am
On the other hand, if they do keep everyone intact add a center and a better point guard next year they might have a go at it.
I don’t want Stoudamire and his no defense/bad knees anyway.
Hawk n the Ham
February 17th, 2010
10:27 am
We are built as a defensive team (minus Bibby). There is not a decent trade out there to make us better defensively. Defense wins championships.
To echo O’Brien, Defend, Rebound, and RUN!!
Hawk n the Ham
February 17th, 2010
10:29 am
The Hawks will add a BIG man in the offseason on the CHEAP.
Anyone remember somebody named Siler??
theZaZaguy
February 17th, 2010
10:33 am
Marvin giving a kid a coat is absolutely relevant. It’s relevant to the hawks overall philosopy of drafting and acquring quality, both in play and in character. This works for the following reasons.
1. You minimize the risk of external distractions (Arenas, Delonte West, Latrell Sprewell)
2. There tend to be less ego fights.
3. Guys like this tend to work harder and are more focused on team goals
I’ve been very impressed by the quality of men we have on this team as well as the quality of play.
So they don’t make a lot of noise and aren’t telegenic. They love basketball, like each other, and get the job done.
This is the philsophy of Joe Dumars and management at San Antonio as well. It worked out pretty well for them, and I think it will work out well for us over the next 4-5 years.
Astro Joe
February 17th, 2010
10:33 am
Melvin, I wasn’t trying to trade him NOW. If we want to stay in the NOW, there is nothing to debate.
theZaZaguy
February 17th, 2010
10:34 am
I say the hawks put Jason Collins on one of those movie star diet and exercise regimens and ban cheesburgers from Phillips Arena. Then watch out!
Astro Joe
February 17th, 2010
10:51 am
Woodson Interview Alert. 12:00 EST on 790thezone.com or 790 AM in Atlanta.
richbrave
February 17th, 2010
10:58 am
JeJe:
And there you go JJ, I rest my case. The worst ownership is the one willing to DIE to abdicate it’s responsibility.
Melvin
February 17th, 2010
11:09 am
Astro,
I know that but you are overlooking some very important factors now that could have an impact on his decision in the next year or two…
Melvin
February 17th, 2010
11:12 am
Astro,
Also, why even consider trading him (our option 1A or 1B) instead of moving some other dead weight on this team (i will leave their names anonymous)….
Daniel
February 17th, 2010
11:14 am
Astro- As a fan it is not my responsibility to create a championship team. I pay to be served by a product not the other way around. Really, you think it should be “If they come, then we will build it” instead of “If you build it, then they will come.” The measure of me as a fan is not reflected by the teams performance. I am the best fan in the NBA and deserve a championship!!! I mean why not just declare that, there is no reasonable measurement.
hawkville
February 17th, 2010
11:17 am
Why do u guys always talk about making a trade. And the Hawks needing a big man. Za Za at center Hoeford at forward, a simple move would do wonders for them. Along with the willingness to attack matchup advantages. Za Za will have to do a better job with the ball (stop looking for a bail out) but play aggressive and with confidence with the ball and everything else will fall n place. Marvin sucks, how much prove do u need. Against Miami, u needed a second option and he didn’t get it done and that happens over and over but the Hawks are still ramming him done our throats enough, its time to move on.
Melvin
February 17th, 2010
11:20 am
Daniel,
Co-sign your post (Amen, for the front row of the congregation). I had a response to AJ comment about the fans but it was zip by the blog master. However, I like the way you explain it. It’s not the fans/customers responsibility to grow your business. It’s on the business to sell a product that the fans/customers will purchase.
John
February 17th, 2010
11:29 am
Marvin’s production is down because he is getting less minutes. He is getting less minutes because we have the best bench player in the league that takes minutes away from him. We slide JJ to the 3 alot. Even Josh’s points are down. I will say it again. It is incredibly hard to have 5 guys averaging 15 or more points. Marvin serves a role for us that we need. He provides us with outside shooting from the SF position. He spaces the floor to let Al and Josh work down low.
Fundamentals
February 17th, 2010
11:52 am
Cosign Daniel…as always.
Marvin’s biggest problems are his draft selection # and the fact that Sund handed him a big deal without competition to make up for the summer before. We locked him up both times with high expectations. He has talent, but he hasn’t ever found his niche. What is his niche? Hopefully a deadly shooter when given the chance, a strong rebounder and a lock-down defender at the 3. At times he gives us that, but most times he lacks the motivation and fire to stay in the mix. His efforts wane, and we begin giving him crap here on a daily basis.
The kids gotta find his niche, or we’ll be watching him elevate his game on a new team next year. Kid’s got potential. He just can’t find his niche here, and thus his efforts don’t meet the average fans approval.
Astro Joe
February 17th, 2010
12:02 pm
I think that a team that has a top 6 record should have better fan support that bottom 10 home attendance. I don’t think ownership has to invest a luxury-tax level funding in hopes of moving from 20-something in home attendance to maybe 12th. Would it be nice for the owners to throw in another $10M+ to make us title contenders while revenues grow by a fraction of that investment? Absolutely. Will I hold it against the owners if they choose not to move forwarf with that return-on-investment, absolutely not. If you want to be even half-way objective, you have to consider that maybe the investment they have put forth since bringing in Bibby (the exact time we went from bottom 5 payroll to somewhere in the middle) has not been met with comparable increase in revenue. Yes, the economy tanked shortly thereafter, but again, should we really expect any owner to bleed more money… for an apathetic fan base? Yeah, it would be nice. (And again, I am persoanlly guilty because I don’t spend much of my discretional income on the Hawks).
Melvin, I don’t value the role as mch as you. It’s less about Jamal and more about the role he plays. I’d feel the same if it were Jason Terry, Barbosa, Manu or Andrew Toney himself. I’d rather invest limited dollars elsewhere.
The Sham
February 17th, 2010
12:05 pm
Michael Cunningham (MC) – I asked you a question!!! Most every other blogger answers their blog followers – where you at?
Oh well, I guess I’ll have to go back and keep reading old UGA recruiting nuggets for my lunch hour…
Anti Thought Police
February 17th, 2010
12:07 pm
Its apparent to me that M. Cunningham is in fact, a ham, who wishes to police thought and block anyone whose view is confrontational to his fool hearted view. Whats left is a bunch of bloggers who share idiot Cunningham’s point of view.
Anti Thought Police
February 17th, 2010
12:08 pm
Good post The Sham!
Astro Joe
February 17th, 2010
12:08 pm
Daniel, why isn’t moving from 13 wins to 50-something not enough to expect an increase in fan support? I’m not saying that the product can remain at 40-something with an expectation that fans come flocking. But shouldn’t two All-Stars, a top 3-4 conference record and an exciting team be more than enough to at least have a top 10 home attendance?
Being a fan does not give us the right to expect ownership to bleed money until we get around to spend money on that team. That’s an entitlement attitude that often results in teams moving to another city where fans will show some financial support.
Sautee
February 17th, 2010
12:10 pm
Fun facts about shotblocking:
#1 team in shots blocked? Chicago at 6.3 / gm.
Hawks, by the way are 10th at 5.17 / gm. and are 11th in points allowed.
But interestingly Chicago gives up MORE points per game than the Hawks.
#2 team in blocks – tonight’s foe, the Clippers at 5.88 / gm. Yet they are 17th in giving up points.
#3 in blocks – 76ers at 5.75 / gm. Yet they are 16th in points allowed.
#6 in blocks – Indiana at 5.59 / gm. Yet they are a dismal 25th in points allowed.
Wow, maybe there’s more to defense than just blocked shots. And I’ll take our record over that of any of the above mentioned teams.
Anti Thought Police
February 17th, 2010
12:12 pm
Because they are dedicated to winning it all! Just content to be a 50 win something team. I hate losers! People who dont strive to be the best!Lets not settle for mediocrity.
Paid for by the Horford apologist
February 17th, 2010
12:14 pm
Horford # 18th among centers in the NBA for block shot.
A sign on his back say’s come right in and dunk on me please. I just want to watch!
Paid for by the Horford apologist
February 17th, 2010
12:15 pm
Its not about team blocks idiot, its about what’s going on in the middle, at the basket, Azz breath.
Paid for by the Horford apologist
February 17th, 2010
12:20 pm
Fun facts about shotblocking:
Our center doesnt play defense and is listed as the number 18 center for blocking shots, he will however pick up an occasional rebound if Josh plays defense and block a shot. There is no what we get past the second round not being able to protect the basket in the paint. Trade hoe ford now! The Hawks will never be serious.
Paid for by the Horford apologist
February 17th, 2010
12:21 pm
no way we get past the second round with a defenseless center
Astro Joe
February 17th, 2010
12:21 pm
Sautee, are you suggesting that since most blocked shots come from a weakside defender who is leaving his man open to help a teammate, that maybe blocked shots is not a great measurement of team defense? Wow, what an original idea. I wonder if that is why Rick Mahorn and Bill Laimbeer were great defenders, because they made their opponent uncomfortable as opposed to blocking their shot? I wonder if that is why Rodman and Jordan were likely the best defenders I’ve seen, because they never allowed an opposing scorer to find his comfortable spot?
But who cares about that, counting how many shots are put into the stands is so much more fun than worrying about defensive rotations and nudging guys out of their comfort zone.
vava74
February 17th, 2010
12:22 pm
Sautee,
You are missing the point! Don’t you see that we need an enforcer like Darryl Dawkins!?! A guy who averaged 1,4blks per during his career!!!
Or better still, an enforcer like Bill Laimbeer!!! A guy who averaged 0,9 blks per during his career!!!
Anti Thought Police
February 17th, 2010
12:24 pm
People will come when the hawks show they are serious about trying to get a championship. Who want to come watch a team that is content with being good but not great?
Anti Thought Police
February 17th, 2010
12:29 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7ZKBKIMEWY
an enforcer in the middle, horford take note.
roger that!
February 17th, 2010
12:30 pm
Yes, laimbeer was indeed a force in the middle and they didnt rush in on Chocolate thunder either.
Horford is part bytch.
3Klub
February 17th, 2010
12:32 pm
Michael, Can’t Josh Childresses contract be included in a trade?
Fundamentals
February 17th, 2010
12:35 pm
Anyone who can bash Horford’s efforts since arriving in the ATL is not a fan of the Hawks. Maybe he’s out of position, but don’t bring your crap in here without legitimate points. He proved in the All-Star game that he belonged and could play with anyone, as he has every night here in the ATL.
Name me one player who can 1 on one with Dwight? Heck, name me several since you’re so pissed. I want at least 10 or you’re full of CRAP!
Step off bashing one of the best players we’ve ever had!
Sautee
February 17th, 2010
12:37 pm
Funny, but I don’t think anybody who makes the All-Star team NEEDS any apology.
Second best center in the East, as named by the Head Coaches of the league.
Nice try T-s, but once again, I hear the chuckles resounding through the blog.
Fundamentals
February 17th, 2010
12:46 pm
No apology needed, just tired of weak “Make a big trade or else” bloggers who don’t really watch, care or know about the team.
Coaches did speak on behalf of Horford. I think he fit in well on the East squad.
Paid for by the Horford apologist
February 17th, 2010
12:50 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss-H8Lfdimc
roger that!
February 17th, 2010
12:52 pm
great video guys!
rusty
February 17th, 2010
12:53 pm
lets trade jj for stoudmire or bosh right now.we would not miss jj at all as we have jc. he is a lot better than jj. he is more clutch better inside & outside & a much better at distributing the ball. jj defense is way over rated plus the team cant fast break with him. then could we get rid of woody,he brings nothing to the table.
Sautee
February 17th, 2010
12:54 pm
T-s,
We’re not laughing WITH you.
Daniel
February 17th, 2010
12:54 pm
Astro- being a fan does give me the right to have expectations of my teams ownership. My ticket prices have not changed and I am not responsible for getting 300 more fans in a night. I do understand your point about the economics of basketball. Just so you know the Hawks are a little ahead of where we were at this time last year in attendance and we should expect a bump in the second half and playoffs. BTW- Orlando, which only has one professional team, had just a few more fans than the Hawks last season. Now, their numbers are up but still not top 10. Should their fans not expect an effort to win? For the record, I do not expect the owners to go into the luxury tax. I am with you there.
But the Hawks (or any team) should consider their fans as champions for supporting them, not that the fans should become “championship level” for the team to compete. We tend to let the tail wag the dog too much.
doc
February 17th, 2010
12:56 pm
sautee nicely puts things into perspective at 12:10 regarding blocked shots and their importance. they dont even mean a change of possession like a steal does. even that may mean someone id out of position at other times or maybe over guarding and getting burned more often than steals. two of the best blocks i saw all season were by teague, unfortunately, they followed poor decisions of his on the other end and he was trying to cover his own mistakes. patrick ewing blocked a lot of shots in his day as did mutumbo but they didnt make it to the promised land of championships very often, now did they?
Daniel
February 17th, 2010
12:58 pm
Fundamentals- don’t let those “weak” bloggers bother you. They are going to make the same statements no matter what. Even when the whole blog was written to explain why the Hawks are not in a position to make a big trade.
O'Brien
February 17th, 2010
12:59 pm
From Bill Simmons on espn.com, speaking about Andrew Bynum and Horford.
“I don’t trust him (Bynum) yet. As for Horford, he gives you 95 percent of what Bynum gives you for one-third the price. Did you notice how well he fit in with everyone in the All-Star Game? One of my favorites”.
Its ironic that even around the league, Horford gets so much respect for what he brings to the table, but some fans around here are too blind to see.
NDiiBaBii
February 17th, 2010
1:00 pm
Melvin,
Umm yes Marvin played in the playoffs, he was hurt and he came back early to help us out because Joe wasn’t doing anything
Sautee
February 17th, 2010
1:03 pm
doc,
Thanks. Yeah the Horford haters are pulling their hair out over his All-Star berth.
It just seems to get more shrill by the day. I guess some people have a hard time being shown to be wrong.
Astro Joe
February 17th, 2010
1:03 pm
Daniel, my point is that the ASG has tried and continue to “try” to improve the product. But there may be a line that they will not cross until they get more revenue in the door. And I personally think that is reasonable. Fans talk about “going for it” but if you challenge them to define that, they can’t. Finishing amongst the top 8 in a 30 team league is not what I would personally call mediocre. That’s roughly top 25-30%. But the attendance is bottom 50%. There is something wrong with that picture. And I won’t criticize ownership if they don’t cross that line until that bottom 50% improves to something that more closely resembles the team’s ranking in the league.
Daniel
February 17th, 2010
1:04 pm
Hey “paid for by the Horford…” you are allowed to give whatever opinion you want on here as long as it is clean. But, you are not “critiquing facts” you are giving an opinion. And secondly, no you do not have the “right” to give your opinion on a forum without others getting to critique you. That is called a free speech, you know blogging about the Hawks, etc. Sorry if you feel that know one should tell you that you are wrong but that is the way life works. I hope you can learn that sooner than later. I bet if you do things like a blog or a basketball player or a writer would make you feel so bad about yourself.
Daniel
February 17th, 2010
1:12 pm
Astro- I agree with you that finishing in the top 8 is NOT mediocre. I also don’t think the owners should go into the luxury cap unless it is financially feasible. But, attendance figures lag behind performance by at least 2 years, people need a track record. And, I strongly disagree that attendance figures is the best measure a fan bases’ “right” to expect and root and hope for a winner. I mean isn’t that by definition the nature of a fan?
Daniel
February 17th, 2010
1:16 pm
couple of corrections: of course I meant no one, not “know one” although I like the mistake. and I meant that those things would not make you feel so bad about yourself.
Fundamentals
February 17th, 2010
1:17 pm
No worries here Daniel, just want to push back sometimes when I get tired of the crap. I’ve been off the blog a while cause it has been crap. True Hawks fans realized when Mario signed we tied our own hands in terms of moves before tommorrow. Do we need one? It’s nice to explore options or missed chances, but overall we’re not missing out on anything.
I haven’t really heard any names dangled that really make me want to change our team.
Still no word on who can defend Howard or other “better” bigs. Guess they just got nothin, except the 2nd best center in the East!
Hoping for a great start on this West Coast swing tonight. I’m guessing Josh will come out with some fire!
bad trade
February 17th, 2010
1:20 pm
***BREAKING NEWS***
hawks trade joe johnson and cash to the heat for wade
Now on espn
Fundamentals
February 17th, 2010
1:24 pm
Atlanta’s interior defense hinges on getting Josh & AL working hard together. They can do that night in and night out against anyone except maybe Howard. Sometimes the lack of guard pressure leaves them exposed and helping, but overall we run a tight ship on D. I’ll agree we need a strong backup for Horford come stretch time, but I’m guessing ZaZa will bring it when we need it. He always has, no reason to doubt him now. Hopefully we’ll also use Randmo & Collins to wear down Howard. Didn’t work last time, but who really has kept Howard beat down? NOBODY!
As for dunks – I’ve seen everyone get dunked on from time to time. Are Ewing, Motumbo, Kareem, David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Dwight Howard or Hakeem “bytches” cause they got dunked on regularly? No, most of them are or will be Hall of Fame Centers.
Pick a fight you can actually use facts to win.
You have a right to your opinion. I have a right to prove it sucks!
terrell
February 17th, 2010
1:28 pm
Astro, 13-50 something? When did we win 50 something games? Did I miss something?
wordy
February 17th, 2010
1:34 pm
Get Bosh!
Daniel
February 17th, 2010
1:43 pm
Fundamentals- here is a name for you .. Mike Miller. wouldn’t have to give up much if anything and pick up a half year salary.
Idiot watch
February 17th, 2010
1:49 pm
As for dunks – I’ve seen everyone get dunked on from time to time, but nothing like what happen to w-horeford.
Dick Long
February 17th, 2010
1:51 pm
Excuse me,… is it or is it not a fact that Horford is 18th in the NBA amongst center in block shots?
niremetal
February 17th, 2010
2:06 pm
For the entirety of their existence, Hawks attendance has lagged well behind the team’s record in the standings.
You can blame it on our lack of playoff success if you want. But teams with equally bad or worse postseason performance records do better. You can blame it on the owners if you want. This has persisted through 4 ownerships (Cousins, Turner, AOL, ASG). You can blame it on the lack of superstars, but it has persisted through the coming and going of at least two superstars (Pete and Nique).
The fact that metro Atlanta traditionally cares more about baseball and football than basketball might explain part of it. But the Braves and Falcons have consistently suffered from the same phenomenon – their attendance lags behind their record in the standings (it’s actually even more pronounced with the Braves, but less pronounced with the Falcons – although even the Falcons finished T-11th in the standings but 17th in attendance last year, which actually was an improvement over last year’s T-6th/23rd gap).
The two biggest reasons, I suspect, are simple: 1) Atlanta is a city where most of the adult population was born and raised elsewhere, which strips away the multi-generational loyalties of other teams; 2) football and baseball are the traditional sports pasttimes throughout the region, with football getting the most attention at the HS and college levels and baseball traditionally getting the most attention at the pro level; and 3) Atlanta’s metro area is massively spread out and lacks a unified public transit system (and the system that exists in Fulton and Dekalb sucks), which leads to terrible traffic and is a big deterrent for fans in the suburbs who might otherwise attend games.
Here are the Hawks’ rankings among NBA teams in terms of their ranking in Won/Lost and their ranking in attendance for each of the past 25 years:
1985-86
50-32 (6th in NBA), 19th in attendance = -13
1986-87
57-25 (3rd in NBA), 8th in attendance = -5
1987-88
50-32 (T-7th in NBA), 8th in attendance = -1
1988-89
52-30 (6th in NBA), 11th in attendance = -5
1989-90
41-41 (T-16th in NBA), 17th in attendance = -1
1990-91
52-30 (13th in NBA), 19th in attendance = -6
1991-92
38-44 (T-17th in NBA), 27th in attendance = -10
1992-93
43-39 (12th in NBA), 27th in attendance (worst in NBA) = -15
1993-94
57-25 (T-3rd in NBA), 21st in attendance = -18
1994-95
42-40 (14th in NBA), 26th in attendance = -12
1995-96
46-36 (T-11th in NBA), 27th in attendance = -16
1996-97
56-26 (T-6th in NBA), 27th in attendance = -21
1997-98
50-32 (T-10th in NBA), 14th in attendance = -4
1999
31-19 (T-7th in NBA), 27th in attendance = -20
1999-2000
28-54 (23rd in NBA), 25th in attendance = -2
2000-01
25-57 (24th in NBA), 28th in attendance = -4
2001-02
33-49 (22nd in NBA), 27th in attendance = -5
2002-03
35-47 (22nd in NBA), 28th in attendance = -6
2003-04
28-54 (22nd in NBA), 29th in attendance (worst in league) = -7
2004-05
13-69 (30th/last in NBA), 28th in attendance = +2 (slightly better than Charlotte and NO, the two cities involved in the Hornets relocation fiasco)
2005-06
13-69 (T-26th in NBA), 29th in attendance = -3
2006-07
30-52 (26th in NBA), 26th in attendance = 0
2007-08
37-45 (19th in NBA), 20th in attendance = -1
2008-09
47-35 (12th in NBA), 20th in attendance = -6
This year to date
33-18 (6th in NBA), 20th in attendance = -14
The Hawks have never finished in the top third of the league in attendance (the two times they finished 8th was when the league had 23 teams). And only once in the past 25 years has their attendance ranking exceeded their won/loss ranking. You can try to blame management all you want, but the problem is much more fundamental than that.
niremetal
February 17th, 2010
2:07 pm
*three biggest reasons
Ramon
February 17th, 2010
2:15 pm
I love Horford’s play and what he can bring to the table. But I won’t lie, if I was Sund and the salaries matched, I would have considered a Horford/Bibby and 1st pick for Amare and Barbosa.
niremetal
February 17th, 2010
2:18 pm
I seriously think it’s the transplant population factor that is mostly responsible. It’s tough to cultivate city pride and team loyalty when most city residents were born elsewhere and brought their existing loyalties with them. I’ll be a Hawks fan all my life even though it’s been 8 years since I left Atlanta, and my girlfriend will be a Blazers fan all her life even though it’s been 8 years since she left Portland. Imagine people like us forming 2/3 of the population of a city, and you have Atlanta.
Can’t underestimate the transit/traffic either. That’s the biggest reason why I have no intention of moving back to Atlanta. Atlanta is consistently ranked as having the worst public transportation system in the country:
http://www.forbes.com/2008/04/24/cities-commute-fuel-forbeslife-cx_mw_0424realestate3_slide_11.html?thisSpeed=undefined
Considering the city started as a damned railroad hub, there’s no excuse for THAT.
Truth-serum
February 17th, 2010
2:24 pm
I have to agree. We can do a whole lot better than Horford, if we are trying to win a championship.
Truth-serum
February 17th, 2010
2:25 pm
The question is what can we get for w h o r e f o r d ?
Daniel
February 17th, 2010
2:30 pm
truth-serum: What is the matter with you? You were doing a lot better for awhile there. It is sad to see you revert back to this “shock value” form.
rusty
February 17th, 2010
2:32 pm
trade jj for bosh. jc will be gone after his contract expires. why would he want to be here as sixth man. he would start for most everyone else in nba. him being the sixth man has to be swoodys doing
Truth-serum
February 17th, 2010
2:34 pm
The truth about the attendance issue is nobody believes this team will get the personnel necessary to win championship.
Idiot watch
February 17th, 2010
2:37 pm
JJ is leaving because he wants to win a championship. It aint going to happen like this. Woodson will be leaving too followed by Josh who will demand a trade.
Dick, Barry, Long
February 17th, 2010
2:39 pm
Dick Long
February 17th, 2010
1:51 pm
Excuse me,… is it or is it not a fact that Horford is 18th in the NBA amongst center in block shots?
Truth-Serum
February 17th, 2010
2:40 pm
Dick, let that go. They dont deal with facts here, just emotion.
Paid for by the Horford apologist
February 17th, 2010
2:41 pm
I just laugh at them and continue to make my point.
Idiot watch
February 17th, 2010
2:42 pm
Truth-Serum Ill co-sign that.
Bad mother shut your mouth!
February 17th, 2010
2:44 pm
Trade Sund and Horford.
FIRE SUND RIGHT NOW!
Astro Joe
February 17th, 2010
2:54 pm
nire, there is NO mystery regarding metro Atlanta’s public transportation issues. It is rooted in something that is much older than the railroad.
And if ownership brought in the right players, the next excuse would be wrong coach. And then the excuse would be style of play or lack of a “real superstar”. It would be one excuse after another… and then one day, we’ll be the Seattle Supersonic fans.
Sautee
February 17th, 2010
2:54 pm
Here’s a FACT for you: The Head Coaches of the NBA voted Al Horford as the second best Center in the East.
Better than Shaq, better than Lopez, better than O’Neal, better than Bogut, etc.
A sad fact if you are a Horford hater.
Grandad
February 17th, 2010
2:55 pm
Nire – Great post.
Zaza Guy – Same with your Marv post!
Sautee – Al is concievably our most important player. I think those of us who would like to see a goaltender has nothing to do with Al’s defense. Rather, the inadequecies of our backcourt, allowing penetration.
Sybil – nice to see you back.
Trades – Wait until summer. Marv+Bibby+Childress+draft pick = trade chips. It appears that Al Jefferson will be available for a small forward in return.
ASG – Let the court case be resolved and I really think they will try to do whatever it takes to put a championship team on the floor.
Whomever is the coach??? We must have a workable offensive system in place. As for the discussion above; an old gentleman once told me,
“defense wins games, offense wins fans.”
PMC
February 17th, 2010
2:57 pm
Anyone bashing Al Horford is not a fan of the Hawks period. We need a center… definately but we still need Al too.
Sautee
February 17th, 2010
3:03 pm
Grandad,
Yeah here’s what Woody said earlier this year:
“I remember last year after Al got hurt those two times … We were exposed. Al’s the one guy I feared going down.”
AG
February 17th, 2010
3:20 pm
What about Thorton with the clips. I like him better than Marvin
Dick, Barry, Long
February 17th, 2010
3:25 pm
I cant see why Horford’s nut huggers cant answer a direct question.
Excuse me,… is it or is it not a fact that Horford is 18th in the NBA amongst center in block shots?
AG
February 17th, 2010
3:31 pm
Williams and Bibby for Thorton & Davis. This trade works
Paid for by the Horford apologist
February 17th, 2010
3:33 pm
Dick Long, let me answer that question for the factually challenged guys like….
“Hey “paid for by the Horford…” you are allowed to give whatever opinion you want on here as long as it is clean. But, you are not “critiquing facts” you are giving an opinion.” – Daniel
Yes, Dick, it is a fact that w h o r e f o r d is 18th amongst NBA center for block shots, No, it is not an opinion. Yes, it is very relevant to protecting the basket.
niremetal
February 17th, 2010
3:36 pm
Truth-Serum,
Actually, people have acknowledged that repeatedly. Yes, Horford is 18th amongst centers in blocked shots.
Isn’t it also true that there is much, much more to playing defense than just blocking shots?
Isn’t it also true that Tim Duncan – the best low-post defender of the past decade – has never come close to leading the league in blocks?
Isn’t it also true that the Eastern Conference head coaches decided that Al Horford was the second best center in the conference?
Grandad
February 17th, 2010
3:45 pm
Sybil:
Did you not see your shadow?
I thought you were gonna crawl back in your hole for 6 more weeks.
Ramon
February 17th, 2010
3:48 pm
Niremetal, I’m not a Horford hater at all. But from a business perspective I realize the name Amare Stoudemire would sell more tickets than the name Horford at the moment. Now to what you stated about Duncan 2 things I’ll like you to remember. First, Duncan averaged 2.5-3.0 blocks per game for MAJORITY of his career (his career average is 2.33 bpg) to go along with 8.0-9.3 defensive rebounds a game. But the main reason why you have to leave Duncan out of this conversation when speaking about Horford is, Duncan is a legit 7 footer who’s played power forward for all but 2-3 seasons of his career.
Personally, I think THIS lineup could make it to the Finals with the addition of one more wing player who’s capable of creating (and making) his own shot for the bench. As I’ve said before, if the Hawks run the floor (like they could do if they had Calderon at PG), then Howard/Shaq would have a problem staying on the floor long enough to pressure our front court. I think Josh and Horford can win battles with big if given more touches to be a part of the game plan offensively. There’s no way that Horford and Josh has been able to compete with Boston’s frontline for the last three seasons, and they won’t be able to compete with anyone else. When you’re paying Cleveland or Orlando, the most important rule is to never double team the post! If Woody follows that rule, and takes Bibby out (he can’t close out on shooters) he’ll be in good position more times than not.
Truth-Serum
February 17th, 2010
3:51 pm
Yes, Niremetal it is true,blocking shots is not the only thing that makes for a great center, how ever it is important,and Id like to have my center register in the top five for that category, not lower 18.
Tim Duncan is a power forward, we are talking about centers, apples, not oranges, its also note worthy that he never finish as low as 18th as a power forward. There is also the question of whether he is the greatest defender of his day. That is a matter of opinion I respect that you have one.
And for your last misrepresentation of the truth, please show me on this page where any of you nut huggers have acknowledge how weak a showing for blocked shots Horford has put forth. You are the first of horfords nut huggers to admit it that im aware of .
I respect the many guys who acknowledge Horford as a weak defender but a hard working blue collar guy, because that’s what he is.
Truth-Serum
February 17th, 2010
3:53 pm
Good post Ramon.
Daniel
February 17th, 2010
3:54 pm
Truth-Serum:
Why are you acting this way? Are you not taking your meds? Seriously, man people are not bashing you because they don’t like your opinion. You are literally not making sense. Using multiple names and talking to yourself. Can you not address those things?
Fundamentals
February 17th, 2010
3:55 pm
Last I checked blocks isn’t the only stat you rate for a good center. Al blocks a decent amount. Not a league leader, but Smith does factor into that. On a team approach we rank quite well.
Like was stated earlier – all the coaches in the league voted Horford the #2 center in the east, regardless of his “18th” ranking. They must see things like I do. Who’s more qualified to talk to – you who’s posting to yourself or the leagues coaches.
I get paid by Horford every night. He puts the team first, he plays hard and he’s what every player in the league should strive to be. A hard working player who takes his assignment seriously and works hard at it, regardless of whether it’s his “position” or not.
I also like the quote from Rivers a few weeks back. It’s on my fridge at home. Basically said it doesn’t matter what position he plays – he’s a load to handle and one of the best talents this league has to offer.
Show me a way to get a “real” center who meets your specs within our cap & trade constraints w/o negatively affecting the chemistry and I’ll definitely say “You Are the Man”…but you can’t, and won’t. So keep puffing your 18th ranking pipe and stay on the Anti-Hawks bandwagon.
Why don’t you pick a “winner” like all the other “quality” fans this league has and watch Cleveland, Orlando or LA on the NBA league pass. Leave being a true fan of our team to the rest of us.
niremetal
February 17th, 2010
3:58 pm
Ah, I see. So the blocks made by Josh, Tim Duncan, and Karl Malone don’t count because they were power forwards. Nevermind that they were the #1 help defenders on their teams while the “center” was responsible for on-ball defense. Kind of like, you know, Josh is our main help defender while Al is responsible for on-ball defense here.
And by the way, anyone who thinks that Duncan can be defined as a power forward any more than as a center must not watch many Spurs games. Duncan is assigned to defend the paint on defense and work from the post on offense. In clutch situations, he assigned to the other team’s best big man, regardless of whether he is a PF or a C. For some reason, people got it stuck in their heads that he was not a “real” center because he played alongside Robinson early in his career. But from ~2001 onward, he has played the role of a center as much as that of a PF. I mean, doesn’t it seem bizarre to call Matt Bonner a center and Tim Duncan a PF despite the fact that Duncan is taller, stronger, and plays closer to the basket?
niremetal
February 17th, 2010
4:00 pm
*Kevin Garnett, not Karl Malone
Astro Joe
February 17th, 2010
4:06 pm
Smityh is the designated weak side defender/shot-blocker. The last thing you want is both Horford AND Smith leaving their man to chase a loose guy attacking the rim. So Woody has designed a defense that has SMith predominantly play that weakside role. When Camby was in Denver, he blocked a bunch of shots and Kaman did the same for the Clips. When they came together, their individual stats suffered because Dunleavy didn;t have them both chasing after guys.
Fundamentals
February 17th, 2010
4:06 pm
Amen netrimental.
We need a game bad. Guys on this blog are self destructive.
Stretch drive is what’s important. There is no “Big Trade” that’s going to work. Folks can worry about ripping this team apart after the season is over.
If all goes well and we play to our stregths they’ll still be griping about the same team next year. If we play our game Woody will venture to the ECF and thus seal the haters fate for a few more years to come.
Guess we’ll be griping about ISO JOE, WOODY BALL, HORFORD, BIBBY & MARVIN again next year. Most likely with 3 All-Stars and Woodson as coach of the East All Stars.
I’ll be LMAO when Woodson does get to the ECF and they name him COY. Not cause I like Woodson, but because he and his players earned it despite your negativity!
Show me a better way, I’ll respect your opinion. Rip my team aimlessly, I’ll call it crap. I got plenty of time to type.
Fundamentals
February 17th, 2010
4:08 pm
So Astro is proving why Al’s blocks are limited.
He’s helping Josh by doing the dirty work to get the team more wins.
Sad when a guy puts TEAM first instead of personal gain.
That’s why I love Horford!
Truth-Serum
February 17th, 2010
4:20 pm
Daniel , Just the facts mam.
Fundamentals, no argument. Fair enough.
niremetal Instead of trying to creatively make your wrong, right, just admit Duncan is a power forward and ramon and myself pointed out to you. Its a lot easier than denial (not a river in egypt).
Bottom line is Horford is a weak defender.
GMAN013
February 17th, 2010
4:21 pm
Well it seems like the sweep of the celtics will be the last wins for us against Boston. Looks like they gonna get Nate Robinson “HAWKS KILLA”
More Truth
February 17th, 2010
4:25 pm
Quit using Josh’s hard work to justify Al’s lack thereof.
Josh is not the post up defender that you want a center to be. Josh catches slashers and mans up because he is a player. Al, gets punked in the paint because he is a bytch.
Yes, Josh does a good job on defense. If we could get a center who could do the same then the other team would be forced to shoot outside instead of demonstrating their show Dunks on AL W H O R E F O R D.
Fundamentals
February 17th, 2010
4:25 pm
Truth Serum
Horford is a TEAM defense kind of center. He’s not great one on one against Dwight. You still never prove who is? Who is better than Horford for our situation?
Who do you suggest to fix our center problem. You still never address your griping with a real solution? Show me how we move forward in your perfect scenario.
Give us real options, not just pissing on Horford all day.
More Truth
February 17th, 2010
4:26 pm
Quit using Josh’s hard work to justify Al’s lack thereof.
Josh is not the post up defender that you want a center to be. Josh catches slashers and mans up because he is a player. Al, gets punked in the paint because he is a byttch.
Yes, Josh does a good job on defense. If we could get a center who could do the same then the other team would be forced to shoot outside instead of demonstrating their show Dunks on AL H O R E- F O R D.
Think it over
February 17th, 2010
4:31 pm
Give us real options, not just pissing on Horford all day.
All the little bitty guards are so why cant I?
Amare is a better center who is available. His offense overrules his mediocre defense because he will command a double team in the low post and you can play the in and out game better, plus he will put more fans in the stands who believe that the hawks are serious competitors for a ring.
Sautee
February 17th, 2010
4:37 pm
Yawn
Al Horford
February 17th, 2010
4:37 pm
Guys, you have hugged the shiyitte out of my left nut. Do you mind hugging the right one? And will one of my great defenders, please defend the paint for me to night. My left nut hurts and I wont be able to average my 1 block per game tonight….Oh wait a minute, we are playing a team with out a center…its my time to look good. Never mind, I feel much better. Easy on the nut hugging will you guys?
Al Whorford
February 17th, 2010
4:38 pm
Guys, you have hugged the chitte out of my left nut. Do you mind hugging the right one? And will one of my great defenders, please defend the paint for me to night. My left nut hurts and I wont be able to average my 1 block per game tonight….Oh wait a minute, we are playing a team with out a center…its my time to look good. Never mind, I feel much better. Easy on the nut hugging will you guys?
Fundamentals
February 17th, 2010
4:39 pm
Amare is an injury prone power forward who does not play defense, he’s never won, he’s never proved anything more than Horford.
Guards “piss” on Horford b/c our guards can’t stop anyone. Is that a Horford issue or a guard issue?
Why doesn’t Amare have a ring if he’s so good. He is playing with a 2 time MVP? Did they go to the playoffs last year?
Rod from College Park
February 17th, 2010
4:40 pm
theZaZaguy,
“Marvin giving a kid a coat is absolutely relevant. It’s relevant to the hawks overall philosopy of drafting and acquring quality, both in play and in character. This works for the following reasons.
1. You minimize the risk of external distractions (Arenas, Delonte West, Latrell Sprewell)
2. There tend to be less ego fights.
3. Guys like this tend to work harder and are more focused on team goals
I’ve been very impressed by the quality of men we have on this team as well as the quality of play.
So they don’t make a lot of noise and aren’t telegenic. They love basketball, like each other, and get the job done.
This is the philsophy of Joe Dumars and management at San Antonio as well. It worked out pretty well for them, and I think it will work out well for us over the next 4-5 years.”
This truly is one of the dumbest post I have ever seen. Marvin giving a kid a coat means absolutely nothing in terms of the Hawks being a good basketball team. I have personally seen Mike Vick give away clothes, shoes, money…… Does that make him a great guy? I give my clothes to the Salvation Army every year, it means absolutely nothing to my job. In response to your points.
1. Delonte sure has caused a big distraction for Cleveland this year huh?
2. There is no correlation between good guys and ego’s. Jordan and Kobe are considered great and were known to have huge egos. Kobe (Supposedly) sodemized someone, and Jordan is known to be a habitual gambler, and not liked by a lot of his peers.
3. Guys who show no emotion, can’t knock down wide open shots, can’t dribble, stumble a lot when going to the hole, can’t defend their position(Marvin) don’t work harder. I would venture to say that out of our starting lineup, Marvin worked the least on his game besides Bibby. Everyone else has added to their game this year, Marvin has added nothing. He is worse than he was last year, which still was below average.
Joe Dumars won a title with Rasheed Wallace. San Antonio won one with Stephen Jackson. How do you know that they like each other? I go out a lot in Atlanta, and know for a fact that Joe and Josh don’t hang out together. You don’t have to like someone to be on a successful team. That applies in sports and in business. Scottie Pippen did not like Jordan or Rodman. The bottom line is production. You either produce or you don’t. Marvin is not producing.
Fundamentals
February 17th, 2010
4:41 pm
I’ll hug and defend Horford any day. Kids got heart, talent and brings alot to this team. Alot more than what you’ve presented.
Quit watching TV. Everything they say in a hype segment isn’t true.
Horford’s play speaks for itself. Amare isn’t the answer.
Astro Joe
February 17th, 2010
4:42 pm
So, what should we discuss next, religion or politics?
Fundamentals
February 17th, 2010
4:45 pm
I say the game against the Clippers.
I do believe they have an All Star Center in Kaman tonight against our All Star Center Horford. Should be a good matchup to compare.
Sautee
February 17th, 2010
4:46 pm
Truth-serum
You should just admit that Horford is the second best Center in the East. After all the Coaches have spoken, the game is already over. He played and played well.
Its a lot easier than denial (not a river in egypt).
BTW, I don’t think Horford makes the All-Star team if the coaches thought he was a weak defender. They SURELY didn’t name him for his offense (4th or 5th option).
Sorry if that conflicts with your reality.
Fundamentals
February 17th, 2010
4:47 pm
Josh should come out strong in response to his “snub”. Joe and Al will be ready. Crawford’s might be a bit rusty, but he’ll fire up by the 2nd half. Real question is how will Bibby, Mo and Teague respond in the stretch? Will Randmo get minutes? Is Collins going to continue to lose weight preparing for the playoffs? Will Joe Smith and ZaZa return to form? Will Marvin ever find his niche.
There’s plenty to talk about if you’re a Hawks fan and not a HATER!
Rod from College Park
February 17th, 2010
4:47 pm
Ramon,
“Personally, I think THIS lineup could make it to the Finals with the addition of one more wing player who’s capable of creating (and making) his own shot for the bench.”
I agree, the only difference I have is that I think that other wing player should be starting. I don’t agree with this nonsense that a better player should be coming off the bench. Childress was better than Marvin and he should have been starting. Any other wing player we could possibly get could produce the same or better than Marvin, so why would they come off the bench?
payaso
February 17th, 2010
4:48 pm
Nate Robinson is now with the Celtics. Tell horford to go in hiding.
Fundamentals
February 17th, 2010
4:48 pm
Truth shall set you free! He has all day today.
At least I don’t talk to myself when I post things that make me look like an idiot.
Astro Joe
February 17th, 2010
4:50 pm
I’ll be interested to see how Joe manifests his statement about “leading a more focused team” (I may have mis-paraphrased his quote but I think that is directionally correct). Does that mean he is shooting the first 8 shots of the game, he will play tighter defense to set the tone early, he will look to pass initially to set-up his teammates or none of the above? So I’ll be focused on the first quarter mostly.
OK, and I also don’t expect to be able to stay up all night, so my attention will likely last until about 10:45 before I crash and burn. Just offering a little truth to the liar’s table.
Truth-Serum
February 17th, 2010
4:51 pm
Ill meet you guys here after the second round and we can continue this conversation. Its the same one from last year.
Have a nice day girls.
Fundamentals
February 17th, 2010
4:52 pm
Why would NY give up Nate for House? Bad deal for the Knicks. Look out for a revamped Celtics squad. That’ll hurt.
Fundamentals
February 17th, 2010
4:53 pm
Good, no more Truth Serum until say, JUNE. Adios buddy! Hope you’re a man of your word.
Truth-Serum
February 17th, 2010
4:55 pm
Truth shall set you free! He has all day today.-Fundamentals
Just offering a little truth to the liar’s table – Astro Joe
Thanks guys. I do what I can. So many whiny bytches around here youve got to be quick on your feet.
Nice to be appreciated!
Truth-Serum
February 17th, 2010
4:55 pm
Truth shall set you free! He has all day today.-Fundamentals
Just offering a little truth to the liar’s table – Astro Joe
Thanks guys. I do what I can. So many whiny bytches around here youve got to be quick on your feet.
Rod from College Park
February 17th, 2010
5:02 pm
Nate to the Celtics puts us behind the Celtic’s again. There is word that J. Pargo want’s a trade from Chicago. I know that he has not played a lot this year, but he would be an upgrade over Teague for the stretch run since Woody won’t play Teague. He is a vet, and he can knock down the wide open three like Bibby. He was deadly in N.O. when he was on the floor with C. Paul. He used to kill the Hawks also.
For Real
February 17th, 2010
5:10 pm
Here is the lineup the Hawks should use when they play Cleveland or Orlando:
Hawks Cleveland Orlando
PG: Joe Johnson 6-7 Mo Williams 6-1 Jameer Nelson 6-1
SG: Marvin Williams 6-9 Delonte West 6-3 Vince Carter 6-6
SF: Josh Smith 6-9 Lebron 6-8 Rashard Lewis 6-10
PF: Al Horford 6-10 Varejao 6-11 Mickael Pietrus 6-6
C: ZaZa 6-11 Shaq 7-1 Dwight Howard 6-11
So all this talk about not matching up with Cleveland and Orlando is crazy. The coach needs to be more creative.
For Real
February 17th, 2010
5:12 pm
Also, there isn’t another 4 in the NBA that runs the floor like
Joe
Marvin
Josh
Horford
Melvin
February 17th, 2010
5:29 pm
The Celtics picks up a midget and now yall ready to crown them. I don’t see how this move makes them better. They traded a knockdown shooter for a pint-size chuncker… This move shouldnt pump any fear into the Hawks…
Traceman
February 17th, 2010
5:39 pm
Melvin, I agree. What are the Celtics going to do, bench Rondo or Allen so that Nate can play? Fine by me!
Traceman
February 17th, 2010
5:41 pm
Astro Joe,
I want to see what JJ does tonight as well. I hope I can hang in long enough to at least watch the first half.
Marvin Williams
February 17th, 2010
5:42 pm
You guys need to stay up late tonight and watch the show. I’m about to go off!
Jody
February 17th, 2010
5:47 pm
I might be in the minority here, but if it is true that the Celtics have acquired Nate Robinson, I think it’s a good move for them. Say what you will about Nate, but recent history (especially against the Hawks) has shown that he can change games with his ability to attack the basket and make big shots.
Astro Joe
February 17th, 2010
5:56 pm
Nate will bring some youthful energy to the Boston Nursing Home.
Regular Fan
February 17th, 2010
5:57 pm
I just read in the “NY Times” where the Knicks are giddy about their chances of trading for Tracy McGrady. Not so much for his talent, but for his contract expiring at the end of the season. What kind of crap does this say about the NBA? About the state of the gsme? And, why is a NBA ticket the most expensive ticket in town? Please enlighten me with your collective wisdom.
Rod from College Park
February 17th, 2010
5:57 pm
Melvin,
What they are going to do is bring Nate off the bench behind Rondo, and he will destroy most teams second string point guard with penetration and kicking. When they play the Hawks there is no one on the floor for us who can stay in front of him. House never has big games agianst us, and actually neither does Allen. Nate will. When we go with that 4th quarter lineup of Bibby, Jamal, Joe, Josh, and Horford, they can matchup with Nate, Rondo (Allen), Pierce, Garnett and Perkins. It also gives them another guy to isolate against us, which gives our switching defense problems (see Tony Parker or Nate Robinson).
Big Ump
February 17th, 2010
6:03 pm
Truth Serum
How everything going with you?
Rod from College Park
February 17th, 2010
6:09 pm
If the Nate deal goes thru, I actually think that the Celtic’s thought about Atlanta in acquiring him. I think the Celtic’s when healthy feel that they can matchup with Cleveland (somewhat),and Orlando, but not Atlanta. They have seen Nate destroy us, and Doc Rivers is a smart enough coach to exploit a matchup. He would kind of be like their Jamal Crawford. A guy who could come off the bench and put 15 to 20 up. House really can’t run the point, and they have really needed a backup point. He also would bring another confident guy who can back it up on the court unlike MARVIN.
Jody
February 17th, 2010
6:10 pm
Instead of laying the blame on Horford for the Hawks struggles to defend the basket against driving guards and big centers, why not indict the real culprits for this problem: very poor player personnel decisions in the past and the refusal to make more use of current personnel.
We all know Horford is a power forward playing center. However, he didn’t put himself in that position. I don’t think it’s fair to him to be forced to play out of position, but what else is he going to do? Until the Hawks are in a position to get someone who’s a better fit (not neccesarily a better player) at that position, he’s just got to the best he can defending the basket. Just think, if Horford is a solid all-star at a position where he constantly battles bigger guys in the post, imagine what he might become if ever gets into a position where he enjoys the size and physical advantage every night. I remember Steve Smith saying last year that if Horford ever moved to the 4 spot, he would average 20 and 10 numbers and I believe him.
niremetal
February 17th, 2010
6:29 pm
Robinson might be a midget with a limited and inconsistent game. But he’s precisely the type of quick guard that kills the Hawks because we don’t have anyone that can stay in front of him without fouling (*Teague* *ahem*).
Is it possible that the Celtics made this move precisely with a Hawks-Celtics series in mind? It’s tough to say that it makes them a better team on most nights. If that’s the case, it’s a complement to the Hawks.
Astro Joe
February 17th, 2010
6:34 pm
Regular Fan the next NBA CBA will attempt to correct the ability of team’s to circumvent the salary cap by temporarily absorbing bad contracts for the purpose of having space the following year to grab a decent free agent. It is one of many things that hurts today’s NBA. Fans in NY and NJ have been told for at least 2 seasons to wait for this coming summer. There is very little ability for teams to “rebuild” if they either make a mistake signing a player (Jared Jeffries) or a player becomes injured (Eddy Curry). Of course, owners want to only guarantee half of the player’s contracts. Imagine that, someone like Curry could be gone because of lack of production instead of holding on by a thread because his contract is guaranteed.
The classic example was when Keith Van Horn received a fat paycheck for being a part of a trade AFTER he had essentially retired (but he was smart enough not to file his papers), because the team needed to make the math work. He was sitting at home eating Butterscotch Krumpets (or maybe Honey Buns), and suddenly, someone pays him a few million to add his name to a trade agreement. Yeah, the system is clearly broken.
bigdave
February 17th, 2010
6:38 pm
i dont see that trade confirmed anywhere…
Truth-Serum
February 17th, 2010
6:40 pm
Big Ump ! whatz up man? Living large trying to keep it real, wading through all the haters here.
becareful not to criticise AL w h o r e f o r d or the Bubba crew will paint you as a hater. I guess they are trying to get some get back for when we kicked their butts about COY Woodson.
Jody, I agree that horford could be more productive at pf but the problem is Josh is a better pf so you have to decide who to keep. Id keep Josh, trade the al and the bubba crew for amare and change.
Rod from College Park It aint got nothing to do with switching defense. There is not a guard in the NBA that can keep any other guard out on the perimeter. Any Guard and penetrate and take a man off the dribble. The key is to have such a force in the paint that he doesnt want to go there. All of the hawks guards including Bibby are capable of penetrating in the middle against anybody, and they do. Its just with playoff finalist type teams they wont let you beat them inside. We dont have a center who will not allow us to get beat inside, in fact, our center(the #18th center for shot blocking), helps guys like 5′10″ tony parker and little bitty nate robinson show case their talents in the paint “WITH AL IN THE PAINT”.
I wish people would quit making excuses for Al lack of defense.When ever I mention his lack of defense they mention his rebounds. Well, he gets rebound because every body else is doing the work.
Here are Al’s defensive numbers. DD-10th, PPG-#12, RPG-#10, BPG-#18
There are only 12 centers in the NBA who score more points per game than horford
There are only 9 centers who grab more rebounds than horford
There are only 17 more centers who block more shots than horford per game
There are only 10 more centers who have higher double doubles than horford.
You cant win a championship with this kind of talent on your team.
Thats why nate and everybody else puts up great numbers, Al doesnt play defense.
If its true the celtic got Robinson and we did not get Amare it only goes to show who’s serious about winning and whos catering to the bubba crew.
Truth-Serum
February 17th, 2010
6:50 pm
Nate and tony did not be us out side but right at the rim. Guards dont protect the rim center do!
Astro Joe
February 17th, 2010
6:52 pm
Cavs just won the Eastern Conference. WojYahooNBA Cavs get Jamison and Telfair, Clippers get Drew Gooden and Wash gets Illgauskas, Al Thornton and Brian Skinner and Cavs 1st round pick.
Magic, Hawks and Celtics are playing for second place now.
Truth-Serum
February 17th, 2010
6:53 pm
*nate and tony did not beat us out side but right at the rim and right in front of al wh o re ford
Blaming the guards for what happens at the rim is the same as saying I am protecting my house as long as it doesnt come under attack.
Truth-Serum
February 17th, 2010
6:57 pm
And the Hawks made what move? what trade?
niremetal
February 17th, 2010
7:03 pm
Yeah, why didn’t the Hawks make a trade? I know they have an extraneous player with an 8-digit expiring contract lying around here somewhere…
Same reason the Magic, Nuggets, and Spurs aren’t active right now: We don’t have any chips to play with, unless you want to trade Smoove or Horford.
Oh wait. This is the guy who thinks Horford, second best center in the East, is the main thing standing between the Hawks and a title. My bad.
niremetal
February 17th, 2010
7:04 pm
*JJ, Smoove, or Horford. But my guess is that Smoove and Horford would draw more interest than JJ right now.
Astro Joe
February 17th, 2010
7:25 pm
I’d take Gooden or Skinner if/when they get bought-out. And add Etan Thomas, Earl Watson, Tony Battie, Trenton Hassell and a few other names to my wish list. We’re not going to make a trade (for well-documented reasons) but we can add some “situational players” if Sund geets approval from ASG.
terrell
February 17th, 2010
8:51 pm
For Real, you got Pietrus at pf, and Lewis at sf. I’m pretty sure it’s the other way around. I actually would’nt mind the lineup. JJ is basically the pg anyway. That would give us a bench of Bibby, Crawford, Mo, Joe , Morris, and Teague. Dont like Josh Smith at the 3 though, but hey, cant be any worse tham Marvin at sf.
terrell
February 17th, 2010
8:59 pm
How in the hell does Nate Robinson put the Celtics back ahead of the Hawks? He hasnt even played a game with the C’s yet,and they’re back in front of the Hawks? Please! Some trades work out, some dont. Dont be so quick to judge..
terrell
February 17th, 2010
9:08 pm
Quick to judge are you Astro? The Cavs were good before Jamison. If anything, I can see them messing with their chemistry a little bit. So I guess this means Amare will end up in Miami.
wuffe
May 30th, 2010
10:36 am
we should trade the “Dream Team Ownership” of the Hawks… for a bushel old used tires.
THEN … See if Jon Koncak will come out of retirement. and trade up for him and get rid of Marvin William.
Then …. Go get Harry the Hawk who wants to stay in Atlanta and let JOE JOHNSON go to the worst team in the NBA, the Knicks..
THEN …. I would get one of these life size pictures of Josh Smith … go to Grady hospital and.. find a heart… and tape the heart to the picture…and darn if I wouldnt start that picture with heart instead of the real thing..
Then..
Start Teague
My lineup : no questions…
C: John Koncack
Pf:Horford
Sf:Picture of Josh Smith with heart taped to chest.
Sg:Harry the Hawk
Pg: Teague
This would be my team after the debacle I saw after seeing them get swept by Orlando Magic.