Atlanta Hawks (no) trade primer
Los Angeles–My editor sent me a note today with a question: “Why AREN’T the Hawks in the Stoudemire chase?”
So I stopped staring out at my balcony view of Marina del Rey long enough to collect my thoughts on the matter. Tough gig.
I know it’s the kind of question Hawks fans have, too. They look at their team’s holes, hear about all the big deals going down (or being talked about) in the league and wish the Hawks would get in on Stoudemire or some other stud.
So I will attempt to answer my boss’s question and yours without boring or confusing you:
1. The Suns are looking to shed salary and the Hawks have no large expiring contracts to match up with Amare’s $16.4 million salary other than Joe Johnson’s $15 million.
2. The Hawks aren’t willing to deal J.J. or other core players with value (Smoove, Jamal and Horford) and haven’t received interest in players they might be willing to part with.
3. Hawks ownership, which still must maintain flexibility for its efforts to re-sign Johnson this summer, isn’t inclined to take on future salary. Part of the reason the Suns are looking to deal Stodemire is his $17.7 million player option for next season. Even if Stoudemire doesn’t invoke the option, he’ll be looking to re-sign for a long-term deal.
Those explanations can apply to why the Hawks aren’t on any of the big money guys you hear in trade rumors. It doesn’t make sense to trade J.J., Smoove or Horford (who remember is still a great bargain at $4.3 million). The Hawks just don’t have any other real assets (expiring contracts, young starters on the rise) or the financial wherewithal to make a major deal.
And all of you including Marvin Williams in your wishful trade thinking need to remember that he’s a base-year compensation player. Assuming another team covets Williams, which is no sure thing considering his decline in production, the Hawks can only use half of his $7.5 million salary under the traded player exception for teams over the salary cap.
In other words, if they traded Williams they could only take back 125 percent plus $100,00 of $3.75 million, or about $4.8 million, instead of $8.9 million. For Williams this holds true until after June 30. The BYC rule is designed to prevent teams from exploiting a loophole in the traded player exception and as you can see it serves as a strong disincentive to trade players like Williams.
– The Hawks still aren’t getting calls about Johnson because there’s no point. The Hawks aren’t dealing him.
– From what I’m hearing, there’s nothing to that rumor about the Hawks looking to deal Mo Evans and a throw-in contract to Milwaukee for Kurt Thomas. It didn’t make much sense when I heard it because the Hawks don’t seem to have much enthusiasm for Thomas and the Bucks aren’t looking to add future salary (Mo has a player option for $2.5 million for next season).
Maybe Thomas would add a bit of defensive toughness and vet leadership but he’s not the big body the Hawks need. And who would be the Hawks’ wing off the bench if Mo is gone?
– The Hawks are interested in Boston forward Rasheed Wallace but the Celtics apparently aren’t interested in dealing him. It was probably a long shot anyway since (here it is again) ownership doesn’t seem inclined to take on future money. Wallace has two years and about $13 million left on his contract after this season.
– I was surprised to see the Clippers deal Marcus Camby to Portland for Travis Outlaw and Steve Blake. The Clippers sent away a good player with an expiring $7.5 million contract (and who had expressed interest in staying with the team) for two decent players with expiring contracts.
The Hawks like Camby, who I think would be a great fit, but they wouldn’t have been to use their players with expiring deals to match his salary in a trade. Also, the Clippers apparently needed a backup point guard for the short term and the Hawks don’t have one to offer with an expiring deal. The Clippers also will receive cash in the deal and maybe that was the main consideration.
– One good thing about the relative quiet around the Hawks this week: no distractions.
“Haven’t said not one word (about trades),” Woody said. “I’m sure these guys are aware of (the deadline). I haven’t heard anything about our team in terms of trade. Most of these guys besides the ‘rook (Jeff Teague) have been around a long time and know sometimes your name will be mentioned in trade rumors. It’s part of the game.”
MC
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237 comments Add your comment
niremetal
February 17th, 2010
2:18 pm
I seriously think it’s the transplant population factor that is mostly responsible. It’s tough to cultivate city pride and team loyalty when most city residents were born elsewhere and brought their existing loyalties with them. I’ll be a Hawks fan all my life even though it’s been 8 years since I left Atlanta, and my girlfriend will be a Blazers fan all her life even though it’s been 8 years since she left Portland. Imagine people like us forming 2/3 of the population of a city, and you have Atlanta.
Can’t underestimate the transit/traffic either. That’s the biggest reason why I have no intention of moving back to Atlanta. Atlanta is consistently ranked as having the worst public transportation system in the country:
http://www.forbes.com/2008/04/24/cities-commute-fuel-forbeslife-cx_mw_0424realestate3_slide_11.html?thisSpeed=undefined
Considering the city started as a damned railroad hub, there’s no excuse for THAT.
Truth-serum
February 17th, 2010
2:24 pm
I have to agree. We can do a whole lot better than Horford, if we are trying to win a championship.
Truth-serum
February 17th, 2010
2:25 pm
The question is what can we get for w h o r e f o r d ?
Daniel
February 17th, 2010
2:30 pm
truth-serum: What is the matter with you? You were doing a lot better for awhile there. It is sad to see you revert back to this “shock value” form.
rusty
February 17th, 2010
2:32 pm
trade jj for bosh. jc will be gone after his contract expires. why would he want to be here as sixth man. he would start for most everyone else in nba. him being the sixth man has to be swoodys doing
Truth-serum
February 17th, 2010
2:34 pm
The truth about the attendance issue is nobody believes this team will get the personnel necessary to win championship.
Idiot watch
February 17th, 2010
2:37 pm
JJ is leaving because he wants to win a championship. It aint going to happen like this. Woodson will be leaving too followed by Josh who will demand a trade.
Dick, Barry, Long
February 17th, 2010
2:39 pm
Dick Long
February 17th, 2010
1:51 pm
Excuse me,… is it or is it not a fact that Horford is 18th in the NBA amongst center in block shots?
Truth-Serum
February 17th, 2010
2:40 pm
Dick, let that go. They dont deal with facts here, just emotion.
Paid for by the Horford apologist
February 17th, 2010
2:41 pm
I just laugh at them and continue to make my point.
Idiot watch
February 17th, 2010
2:42 pm
Truth-Serum Ill co-sign that.
Bad mother shut your mouth!
February 17th, 2010
2:44 pm
Trade Sund and Horford.
FIRE SUND RIGHT NOW!
Astro Joe
February 17th, 2010
2:54 pm
nire, there is NO mystery regarding metro Atlanta’s public transportation issues. It is rooted in something that is much older than the railroad.
And if ownership brought in the right players, the next excuse would be wrong coach. And then the excuse would be style of play or lack of a “real superstar”. It would be one excuse after another… and then one day, we’ll be the Seattle Supersonic fans.
Sautee
February 17th, 2010
2:54 pm
Here’s a FACT for you: The Head Coaches of the NBA voted Al Horford as the second best Center in the East.
Better than Shaq, better than Lopez, better than O’Neal, better than Bogut, etc.
A sad fact if you are a Horford hater.
Grandad
February 17th, 2010
2:55 pm
Nire – Great post.
Zaza Guy – Same with your Marv post!
Sautee – Al is concievably our most important player. I think those of us who would like to see a goaltender has nothing to do with Al’s defense. Rather, the inadequecies of our backcourt, allowing penetration.
Sybil – nice to see you back.
Trades – Wait until summer. Marv+Bibby+Childress+draft pick = trade chips. It appears that Al Jefferson will be available for a small forward in return.
ASG – Let the court case be resolved and I really think they will try to do whatever it takes to put a championship team on the floor.
Whomever is the coach??? We must have a workable offensive system in place. As for the discussion above; an old gentleman once told me,
“defense wins games, offense wins fans.”
PMC
February 17th, 2010
2:57 pm
Anyone bashing Al Horford is not a fan of the Hawks period. We need a center… definately but we still need Al too.
Sautee
February 17th, 2010
3:03 pm
Grandad,
Yeah here’s what Woody said earlier this year:
“I remember last year after Al got hurt those two times … We were exposed. Al’s the one guy I feared going down.”
AG
February 17th, 2010
3:20 pm
What about Thorton with the clips. I like him better than Marvin
Dick, Barry, Long
February 17th, 2010
3:25 pm
I cant see why Horford’s nut huggers cant answer a direct question.
Excuse me,… is it or is it not a fact that Horford is 18th in the NBA amongst center in block shots?
AG
February 17th, 2010
3:31 pm
Williams and Bibby for Thorton & Davis. This trade works
Paid for by the Horford apologist
February 17th, 2010
3:33 pm
Dick Long, let me answer that question for the factually challenged guys like….
“Hey “paid for by the Horford…” you are allowed to give whatever opinion you want on here as long as it is clean. But, you are not “critiquing facts” you are giving an opinion.” – Daniel
Yes, Dick, it is a fact that w h o r e f o r d is 18th amongst NBA center for block shots, No, it is not an opinion. Yes, it is very relevant to protecting the basket.
niremetal
February 17th, 2010
3:36 pm
Truth-Serum,
Actually, people have acknowledged that repeatedly. Yes, Horford is 18th amongst centers in blocked shots.
Isn’t it also true that there is much, much more to playing defense than just blocking shots?
Isn’t it also true that Tim Duncan – the best low-post defender of the past decade – has never come close to leading the league in blocks?
Isn’t it also true that the Eastern Conference head coaches decided that Al Horford was the second best center in the conference?
Grandad
February 17th, 2010
3:45 pm
Sybil:
Did you not see your shadow?
I thought you were gonna crawl back in your hole for 6 more weeks.
Ramon
February 17th, 2010
3:48 pm
Niremetal, I’m not a Horford hater at all. But from a business perspective I realize the name Amare Stoudemire would sell more tickets than the name Horford at the moment. Now to what you stated about Duncan 2 things I’ll like you to remember. First, Duncan averaged 2.5-3.0 blocks per game for MAJORITY of his career (his career average is 2.33 bpg) to go along with 8.0-9.3 defensive rebounds a game. But the main reason why you have to leave Duncan out of this conversation when speaking about Horford is, Duncan is a legit 7 footer who’s played power forward for all but 2-3 seasons of his career.
Personally, I think THIS lineup could make it to the Finals with the addition of one more wing player who’s capable of creating (and making) his own shot for the bench. As I’ve said before, if the Hawks run the floor (like they could do if they had Calderon at PG), then Howard/Shaq would have a problem staying on the floor long enough to pressure our front court. I think Josh and Horford can win battles with big if given more touches to be a part of the game plan offensively. There’s no way that Horford and Josh has been able to compete with Boston’s frontline for the last three seasons, and they won’t be able to compete with anyone else. When you’re paying Cleveland or Orlando, the most important rule is to never double team the post! If Woody follows that rule, and takes Bibby out (he can’t close out on shooters) he’ll be in good position more times than not.
Truth-Serum
February 17th, 2010
3:51 pm
Yes, Niremetal it is true,blocking shots is not the only thing that makes for a great center, how ever it is important,and Id like to have my center register in the top five for that category, not lower 18.
Tim Duncan is a power forward, we are talking about centers, apples, not oranges, its also note worthy that he never finish as low as 18th as a power forward. There is also the question of whether he is the greatest defender of his day. That is a matter of opinion I respect that you have one.
And for your last misrepresentation of the truth, please show me on this page where any of you nut huggers have acknowledge how weak a showing for blocked shots Horford has put forth. You are the first of horfords nut huggers to admit it that im aware of .
I respect the many guys who acknowledge Horford as a weak defender but a hard working blue collar guy, because that’s what he is.
Truth-Serum
February 17th, 2010
3:53 pm
Good post Ramon.
Daniel
February 17th, 2010
3:54 pm
Truth-Serum:
Why are you acting this way? Are you not taking your meds? Seriously, man people are not bashing you because they don’t like your opinion. You are literally not making sense. Using multiple names and talking to yourself. Can you not address those things?
Fundamentals
February 17th, 2010
3:55 pm
Last I checked blocks isn’t the only stat you rate for a good center. Al blocks a decent amount. Not a league leader, but Smith does factor into that. On a team approach we rank quite well.
Like was stated earlier – all the coaches in the league voted Horford the #2 center in the east, regardless of his “18th” ranking. They must see things like I do. Who’s more qualified to talk to – you who’s posting to yourself or the leagues coaches.
I get paid by Horford every night. He puts the team first, he plays hard and he’s what every player in the league should strive to be. A hard working player who takes his assignment seriously and works hard at it, regardless of whether it’s his “position” or not.
I also like the quote from Rivers a few weeks back. It’s on my fridge at home. Basically said it doesn’t matter what position he plays – he’s a load to handle and one of the best talents this league has to offer.
Show me a way to get a “real” center who meets your specs within our cap & trade constraints w/o negatively affecting the chemistry and I’ll definitely say “You Are the Man”…but you can’t, and won’t. So keep puffing your 18th ranking pipe and stay on the Anti-Hawks bandwagon.
Why don’t you pick a “winner” like all the other “quality” fans this league has and watch Cleveland, Orlando or LA on the NBA league pass. Leave being a true fan of our team to the rest of us.
niremetal
February 17th, 2010
3:58 pm
Ah, I see. So the blocks made by Josh, Tim Duncan, and Karl Malone don’t count because they were power forwards. Nevermind that they were the #1 help defenders on their teams while the “center” was responsible for on-ball defense. Kind of like, you know, Josh is our main help defender while Al is responsible for on-ball defense here.
And by the way, anyone who thinks that Duncan can be defined as a power forward any more than as a center must not watch many Spurs games. Duncan is assigned to defend the paint on defense and work from the post on offense. In clutch situations, he assigned to the other team’s best big man, regardless of whether he is a PF or a C. For some reason, people got it stuck in their heads that he was not a “real” center because he played alongside Robinson early in his career. But from ~2001 onward, he has played the role of a center as much as that of a PF. I mean, doesn’t it seem bizarre to call Matt Bonner a center and Tim Duncan a PF despite the fact that Duncan is taller, stronger, and plays closer to the basket?
niremetal
February 17th, 2010
4:00 pm
*Kevin Garnett, not Karl Malone
Astro Joe
February 17th, 2010
4:06 pm
Smityh is the designated weak side defender/shot-blocker. The last thing you want is both Horford AND Smith leaving their man to chase a loose guy attacking the rim. So Woody has designed a defense that has SMith predominantly play that weakside role. When Camby was in Denver, he blocked a bunch of shots and Kaman did the same for the Clips. When they came together, their individual stats suffered because Dunleavy didn;t have them both chasing after guys.
Fundamentals
February 17th, 2010
4:06 pm
Amen netrimental.
We need a game bad. Guys on this blog are self destructive.
Stretch drive is what’s important. There is no “Big Trade” that’s going to work. Folks can worry about ripping this team apart after the season is over.
If all goes well and we play to our stregths they’ll still be griping about the same team next year. If we play our game Woody will venture to the ECF and thus seal the haters fate for a few more years to come.
Guess we’ll be griping about ISO JOE, WOODY BALL, HORFORD, BIBBY & MARVIN again next year. Most likely with 3 All-Stars and Woodson as coach of the East All Stars.
I’ll be LMAO when Woodson does get to the ECF and they name him COY. Not cause I like Woodson, but because he and his players earned it despite your negativity!
Show me a better way, I’ll respect your opinion. Rip my team aimlessly, I’ll call it crap. I got plenty of time to type.
Fundamentals
February 17th, 2010
4:08 pm
So Astro is proving why Al’s blocks are limited.
He’s helping Josh by doing the dirty work to get the team more wins.
Sad when a guy puts TEAM first instead of personal gain.
That’s why I love Horford!
Truth-Serum
February 17th, 2010
4:20 pm
Daniel , Just the facts mam.
Fundamentals, no argument. Fair enough.
niremetal Instead of trying to creatively make your wrong, right, just admit Duncan is a power forward and ramon and myself pointed out to you. Its a lot easier than denial (not a river in egypt).
Bottom line is Horford is a weak defender.
GMAN013
February 17th, 2010
4:21 pm
Well it seems like the sweep of the celtics will be the last wins for us against Boston. Looks like they gonna get Nate Robinson “HAWKS KILLA”
More Truth
February 17th, 2010
4:25 pm
Quit using Josh’s hard work to justify Al’s lack thereof.
Josh is not the post up defender that you want a center to be. Josh catches slashers and mans up because he is a player. Al, gets punked in the paint because he is a bytch.
Yes, Josh does a good job on defense. If we could get a center who could do the same then the other team would be forced to shoot outside instead of demonstrating their show Dunks on AL W H O R E F O R D.
Fundamentals
February 17th, 2010
4:25 pm
Truth Serum
Horford is a TEAM defense kind of center. He’s not great one on one against Dwight. You still never prove who is? Who is better than Horford for our situation?
Who do you suggest to fix our center problem. You still never address your griping with a real solution? Show me how we move forward in your perfect scenario.
Give us real options, not just pissing on Horford all day.
More Truth
February 17th, 2010
4:26 pm
Quit using Josh’s hard work to justify Al’s lack thereof.
Josh is not the post up defender that you want a center to be. Josh catches slashers and mans up because he is a player. Al, gets punked in the paint because he is a byttch.
Yes, Josh does a good job on defense. If we could get a center who could do the same then the other team would be forced to shoot outside instead of demonstrating their show Dunks on AL H O R E- F O R D.
Think it over
February 17th, 2010
4:31 pm
Give us real options, not just pissing on Horford all day.
All the little bitty guards are so why cant I?
Amare is a better center who is available. His offense overrules his mediocre defense because he will command a double team in the low post and you can play the in and out game better, plus he will put more fans in the stands who believe that the hawks are serious competitors for a ring.
Sautee
February 17th, 2010
4:37 pm
Yawn
Al Horford
February 17th, 2010
4:37 pm
Guys, you have hugged the shiyitte out of my left nut. Do you mind hugging the right one? And will one of my great defenders, please defend the paint for me to night. My left nut hurts and I wont be able to average my 1 block per game tonight….Oh wait a minute, we are playing a team with out a center…its my time to look good. Never mind, I feel much better. Easy on the nut hugging will you guys?
Al Whorford
February 17th, 2010
4:38 pm
Guys, you have hugged the chitte out of my left nut. Do you mind hugging the right one? And will one of my great defenders, please defend the paint for me to night. My left nut hurts and I wont be able to average my 1 block per game tonight….Oh wait a minute, we are playing a team with out a center…its my time to look good. Never mind, I feel much better. Easy on the nut hugging will you guys?
Fundamentals
February 17th, 2010
4:39 pm
Amare is an injury prone power forward who does not play defense, he’s never won, he’s never proved anything more than Horford.
Guards “piss” on Horford b/c our guards can’t stop anyone. Is that a Horford issue or a guard issue?
Why doesn’t Amare have a ring if he’s so good. He is playing with a 2 time MVP? Did they go to the playoffs last year?
Rod from College Park
February 17th, 2010
4:40 pm
theZaZaguy,
“Marvin giving a kid a coat is absolutely relevant. It’s relevant to the hawks overall philosopy of drafting and acquring quality, both in play and in character. This works for the following reasons.
1. You minimize the risk of external distractions (Arenas, Delonte West, Latrell Sprewell)
2. There tend to be less ego fights.
3. Guys like this tend to work harder and are more focused on team goals
I’ve been very impressed by the quality of men we have on this team as well as the quality of play.
So they don’t make a lot of noise and aren’t telegenic. They love basketball, like each other, and get the job done.
This is the philsophy of Joe Dumars and management at San Antonio as well. It worked out pretty well for them, and I think it will work out well for us over the next 4-5 years.”
This truly is one of the dumbest post I have ever seen. Marvin giving a kid a coat means absolutely nothing in terms of the Hawks being a good basketball team. I have personally seen Mike Vick give away clothes, shoes, money…… Does that make him a great guy? I give my clothes to the Salvation Army every year, it means absolutely nothing to my job. In response to your points.
1. Delonte sure has caused a big distraction for Cleveland this year huh?
2. There is no correlation between good guys and ego’s. Jordan and Kobe are considered great and were known to have huge egos. Kobe (Supposedly) sodemized someone, and Jordan is known to be a habitual gambler, and not liked by a lot of his peers.
3. Guys who show no emotion, can’t knock down wide open shots, can’t dribble, stumble a lot when going to the hole, can’t defend their position(Marvin) don’t work harder. I would venture to say that out of our starting lineup, Marvin worked the least on his game besides Bibby. Everyone else has added to their game this year, Marvin has added nothing. He is worse than he was last year, which still was below average.
Joe Dumars won a title with Rasheed Wallace. San Antonio won one with Stephen Jackson. How do you know that they like each other? I go out a lot in Atlanta, and know for a fact that Joe and Josh don’t hang out together. You don’t have to like someone to be on a successful team. That applies in sports and in business. Scottie Pippen did not like Jordan or Rodman. The bottom line is production. You either produce or you don’t. Marvin is not producing.
Fundamentals
February 17th, 2010
4:41 pm
I’ll hug and defend Horford any day. Kids got heart, talent and brings alot to this team. Alot more than what you’ve presented.
Quit watching TV. Everything they say in a hype segment isn’t true.
Horford’s play speaks for itself. Amare isn’t the answer.
Astro Joe
February 17th, 2010
4:42 pm
So, what should we discuss next, religion or politics?
Fundamentals
February 17th, 2010
4:45 pm
I say the game against the Clippers.
I do believe they have an All Star Center in Kaman tonight against our All Star Center Horford. Should be a good matchup to compare.
Sautee
February 17th, 2010
4:46 pm
Truth-serum
You should just admit that Horford is the second best Center in the East. After all the Coaches have spoken, the game is already over. He played and played well.
Its a lot easier than denial (not a river in egypt).
BTW, I don’t think Horford makes the All-Star team if the coaches thought he was a weak defender. They SURELY didn’t name him for his offense (4th or 5th option).
Sorry if that conflicts with your reality.
Fundamentals
February 17th, 2010
4:47 pm
Josh should come out strong in response to his “snub”. Joe and Al will be ready. Crawford’s might be a bit rusty, but he’ll fire up by the 2nd half. Real question is how will Bibby, Mo and Teague respond in the stretch? Will Randmo get minutes? Is Collins going to continue to lose weight preparing for the playoffs? Will Joe Smith and ZaZa return to form? Will Marvin ever find his niche.
There’s plenty to talk about if you’re a Hawks fan and not a HATER!
Rod from College Park
February 17th, 2010
4:47 pm
Ramon,
“Personally, I think THIS lineup could make it to the Finals with the addition of one more wing player who’s capable of creating (and making) his own shot for the bench.”
I agree, the only difference I have is that I think that other wing player should be starting. I don’t agree with this nonsense that a better player should be coming off the bench. Childress was better than Marvin and he should have been starting. Any other wing player we could possibly get could produce the same or better than Marvin, so why would they come off the bench?