Atlanta Hawks (no) trade primer
Los Angeles–My editor sent me a note today with a question: “Why AREN’T the Hawks in the Stoudemire chase?”
So I stopped staring out at my balcony view of Marina del Rey long enough to collect my thoughts on the matter. Tough gig.
I know it’s the kind of question Hawks fans have, too. They look at their team’s holes, hear about all the big deals going down (or being talked about) in the league and wish the Hawks would get in on Stoudemire or some other stud.
So I will attempt to answer my boss’s question and yours without boring or confusing you:
1. The Suns are looking to shed salary and the Hawks have no large expiring contracts to match up with Amare’s $16.4 million salary other than Joe Johnson’s $15 million.
2. The Hawks aren’t willing to deal J.J. or other core players with value (Smoove, Jamal and Horford) and haven’t received interest in players they might be willing to part with.
3. Hawks ownership, which still must maintain flexibility for its efforts to re-sign Johnson this summer, isn’t inclined to take on future salary. Part of the reason the Suns are looking to deal Stodemire is his $17.7 million player option for next season. Even if Stoudemire doesn’t invoke the option, he’ll be looking to re-sign for a long-term deal.
Those explanations can apply to why the Hawks aren’t on any of the big money guys you hear in trade rumors. It doesn’t make sense to trade J.J., Smoove or Horford (who remember is still a great bargain at $4.3 million). The Hawks just don’t have any other real assets (expiring contracts, young starters on the rise) or the financial wherewithal to make a major deal.
And all of you including Marvin Williams in your wishful trade thinking need to remember that he’s a base-year compensation player. Assuming another team covets Williams, which is no sure thing considering his decline in production, the Hawks can only use half of his $7.5 million salary under the traded player exception for teams over the salary cap.
In other words, if they traded Williams they could only take back 125 percent plus $100,00 of $3.75 million, or about $4.8 million, instead of $8.9 million. For Williams this holds true until after June 30. The BYC rule is designed to prevent teams from exploiting a loophole in the traded player exception and as you can see it serves as a strong disincentive to trade players like Williams.
– The Hawks still aren’t getting calls about Johnson because there’s no point. The Hawks aren’t dealing him.
– From what I’m hearing, there’s nothing to that rumor about the Hawks looking to deal Mo Evans and a throw-in contract to Milwaukee for Kurt Thomas. It didn’t make much sense when I heard it because the Hawks don’t seem to have much enthusiasm for Thomas and the Bucks aren’t looking to add future salary (Mo has a player option for $2.5 million for next season).
Maybe Thomas would add a bit of defensive toughness and vet leadership but he’s not the big body the Hawks need. And who would be the Hawks’ wing off the bench if Mo is gone?
– The Hawks are interested in Boston forward Rasheed Wallace but the Celtics apparently aren’t interested in dealing him. It was probably a long shot anyway since (here it is again) ownership doesn’t seem inclined to take on future money. Wallace has two years and about $13 million left on his contract after this season.
– I was surprised to see the Clippers deal Marcus Camby to Portland for Travis Outlaw and Steve Blake. The Clippers sent away a good player with an expiring $7.5 million contract (and who had expressed interest in staying with the team) for two decent players with expiring contracts.
The Hawks like Camby, who I think would be a great fit, but they wouldn’t have been to use their players with expiring deals to match his salary in a trade. Also, the Clippers apparently needed a backup point guard for the short term and the Hawks don’t have one to offer with an expiring deal. The Clippers also will receive cash in the deal and maybe that was the main consideration.
– One good thing about the relative quiet around the Hawks this week: no distractions.
“Haven’t said not one word (about trades),” Woody said. “I’m sure these guys are aware of (the deadline). I haven’t heard anything about our team in terms of trade. Most of these guys besides the ‘rook (Jeff Teague) have been around a long time and know sometimes your name will be mentioned in trade rumors. It’s part of the game.”
MC
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237 comments Add your comment
Daniel
February 17th, 2010
11:14 am
Astro- As a fan it is not my responsibility to create a championship team. I pay to be served by a product not the other way around. Really, you think it should be “If they come, then we will build it” instead of “If you build it, then they will come.” The measure of me as a fan is not reflected by the teams performance. I am the best fan in the NBA and deserve a championship!!! I mean why not just declare that, there is no reasonable measurement.
hawkville
February 17th, 2010
11:17 am
Why do u guys always talk about making a trade. And the Hawks needing a big man. Za Za at center Hoeford at forward, a simple move would do wonders for them. Along with the willingness to attack matchup advantages. Za Za will have to do a better job with the ball (stop looking for a bail out) but play aggressive and with confidence with the ball and everything else will fall n place. Marvin sucks, how much prove do u need. Against Miami, u needed a second option and he didn’t get it done and that happens over and over but the Hawks are still ramming him done our throats enough, its time to move on.
Melvin
February 17th, 2010
11:20 am
Daniel,
Co-sign your post (Amen, for the front row of the congregation). I had a response to AJ comment about the fans but it was zip by the blog master. However, I like the way you explain it. It’s not the fans/customers responsibility to grow your business. It’s on the business to sell a product that the fans/customers will purchase.
John
February 17th, 2010
11:29 am
Marvin’s production is down because he is getting less minutes. He is getting less minutes because we have the best bench player in the league that takes minutes away from him. We slide JJ to the 3 alot. Even Josh’s points are down. I will say it again. It is incredibly hard to have 5 guys averaging 15 or more points. Marvin serves a role for us that we need. He provides us with outside shooting from the SF position. He spaces the floor to let Al and Josh work down low.
Fundamentals
February 17th, 2010
11:52 am
Cosign Daniel…as always.
Marvin’s biggest problems are his draft selection # and the fact that Sund handed him a big deal without competition to make up for the summer before. We locked him up both times with high expectations. He has talent, but he hasn’t ever found his niche. What is his niche? Hopefully a deadly shooter when given the chance, a strong rebounder and a lock-down defender at the 3. At times he gives us that, but most times he lacks the motivation and fire to stay in the mix. His efforts wane, and we begin giving him crap here on a daily basis.
The kids gotta find his niche, or we’ll be watching him elevate his game on a new team next year. Kid’s got potential. He just can’t find his niche here, and thus his efforts don’t meet the average fans approval.
Astro Joe
February 17th, 2010
12:02 pm
I think that a team that has a top 6 record should have better fan support that bottom 10 home attendance. I don’t think ownership has to invest a luxury-tax level funding in hopes of moving from 20-something in home attendance to maybe 12th. Would it be nice for the owners to throw in another $10M+ to make us title contenders while revenues grow by a fraction of that investment? Absolutely. Will I hold it against the owners if they choose not to move forwarf with that return-on-investment, absolutely not. If you want to be even half-way objective, you have to consider that maybe the investment they have put forth since bringing in Bibby (the exact time we went from bottom 5 payroll to somewhere in the middle) has not been met with comparable increase in revenue. Yes, the economy tanked shortly thereafter, but again, should we really expect any owner to bleed more money… for an apathetic fan base? Yeah, it would be nice. (And again, I am persoanlly guilty because I don’t spend much of my discretional income on the Hawks).
Melvin, I don’t value the role as mch as you. It’s less about Jamal and more about the role he plays. I’d feel the same if it were Jason Terry, Barbosa, Manu or Andrew Toney himself. I’d rather invest limited dollars elsewhere.
The Sham
February 17th, 2010
12:05 pm
Michael Cunningham (MC) – I asked you a question!!! Most every other blogger answers their blog followers – where you at?
Oh well, I guess I’ll have to go back and keep reading old UGA recruiting nuggets for my lunch hour…
Anti Thought Police
February 17th, 2010
12:07 pm
Its apparent to me that M. Cunningham is in fact, a ham, who wishes to police thought and block anyone whose view is confrontational to his fool hearted view. Whats left is a bunch of bloggers who share idiot Cunningham’s point of view.
Anti Thought Police
February 17th, 2010
12:08 pm
Good post The Sham!
Astro Joe
February 17th, 2010
12:08 pm
Daniel, why isn’t moving from 13 wins to 50-something not enough to expect an increase in fan support? I’m not saying that the product can remain at 40-something with an expectation that fans come flocking. But shouldn’t two All-Stars, a top 3-4 conference record and an exciting team be more than enough to at least have a top 10 home attendance?
Being a fan does not give us the right to expect ownership to bleed money until we get around to spend money on that team. That’s an entitlement attitude that often results in teams moving to another city where fans will show some financial support.
Sautee
February 17th, 2010
12:10 pm
Fun facts about shotblocking:
#1 team in shots blocked? Chicago at 6.3 / gm.
Hawks, by the way are 10th at 5.17 / gm. and are 11th in points allowed.
But interestingly Chicago gives up MORE points per game than the Hawks.
#2 team in blocks – tonight’s foe, the Clippers at 5.88 / gm. Yet they are 17th in giving up points.
#3 in blocks – 76ers at 5.75 / gm. Yet they are 16th in points allowed.
#6 in blocks – Indiana at 5.59 / gm. Yet they are a dismal 25th in points allowed.
Wow, maybe there’s more to defense than just blocked shots. And I’ll take our record over that of any of the above mentioned teams.
Anti Thought Police
February 17th, 2010
12:12 pm
Because they are dedicated to winning it all! Just content to be a 50 win something team. I hate losers! People who dont strive to be the best!Lets not settle for mediocrity.
Paid for by the Horford apologist
February 17th, 2010
12:14 pm
Horford # 18th among centers in the NBA for block shot.
A sign on his back say’s come right in and dunk on me please. I just want to watch!
Paid for by the Horford apologist
February 17th, 2010
12:15 pm
Its not about team blocks idiot, its about what’s going on in the middle, at the basket, Azz breath.
Paid for by the Horford apologist
February 17th, 2010
12:20 pm
Fun facts about shotblocking:
Our center doesnt play defense and is listed as the number 18 center for blocking shots, he will however pick up an occasional rebound if Josh plays defense and block a shot. There is no what we get past the second round not being able to protect the basket in the paint. Trade hoe ford now! The Hawks will never be serious.
Paid for by the Horford apologist
February 17th, 2010
12:21 pm
no way we get past the second round with a defenseless center
Astro Joe
February 17th, 2010
12:21 pm
Sautee, are you suggesting that since most blocked shots come from a weakside defender who is leaving his man open to help a teammate, that maybe blocked shots is not a great measurement of team defense? Wow, what an original idea. I wonder if that is why Rick Mahorn and Bill Laimbeer were great defenders, because they made their opponent uncomfortable as opposed to blocking their shot? I wonder if that is why Rodman and Jordan were likely the best defenders I’ve seen, because they never allowed an opposing scorer to find his comfortable spot?
But who cares about that, counting how many shots are put into the stands is so much more fun than worrying about defensive rotations and nudging guys out of their comfort zone.
vava74
February 17th, 2010
12:22 pm
Sautee,
You are missing the point! Don’t you see that we need an enforcer like Darryl Dawkins!?! A guy who averaged 1,4blks per during his career!!!
Or better still, an enforcer like Bill Laimbeer!!! A guy who averaged 0,9 blks per during his career!!!
Anti Thought Police
February 17th, 2010
12:24 pm
People will come when the hawks show they are serious about trying to get a championship. Who want to come watch a team that is content with being good but not great?
Anti Thought Police
February 17th, 2010
12:29 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7ZKBKIMEWY
an enforcer in the middle, horford take note.
roger that!
February 17th, 2010
12:30 pm
Yes, laimbeer was indeed a force in the middle and they didnt rush in on Chocolate thunder either.
Horford is part bytch.
3Klub
February 17th, 2010
12:32 pm
Michael, Can’t Josh Childresses contract be included in a trade?
Fundamentals
February 17th, 2010
12:35 pm
Anyone who can bash Horford’s efforts since arriving in the ATL is not a fan of the Hawks. Maybe he’s out of position, but don’t bring your crap in here without legitimate points. He proved in the All-Star game that he belonged and could play with anyone, as he has every night here in the ATL.
Name me one player who can 1 on one with Dwight? Heck, name me several since you’re so pissed. I want at least 10 or you’re full of CRAP!
Step off bashing one of the best players we’ve ever had!
Sautee
February 17th, 2010
12:37 pm
Funny, but I don’t think anybody who makes the All-Star team NEEDS any apology.
Second best center in the East, as named by the Head Coaches of the league.
Nice try T-s, but once again, I hear the chuckles resounding through the blog.
Fundamentals
February 17th, 2010
12:46 pm
No apology needed, just tired of weak “Make a big trade or else” bloggers who don’t really watch, care or know about the team.
Coaches did speak on behalf of Horford. I think he fit in well on the East squad.
Paid for by the Horford apologist
February 17th, 2010
12:50 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss-H8Lfdimc
roger that!
February 17th, 2010
12:52 pm
great video guys!
rusty
February 17th, 2010
12:53 pm
lets trade jj for stoudmire or bosh right now.we would not miss jj at all as we have jc. he is a lot better than jj. he is more clutch better inside & outside & a much better at distributing the ball. jj defense is way over rated plus the team cant fast break with him. then could we get rid of woody,he brings nothing to the table.
Sautee
February 17th, 2010
12:54 pm
T-s,
We’re not laughing WITH you.
Daniel
February 17th, 2010
12:54 pm
Astro- being a fan does give me the right to have expectations of my teams ownership. My ticket prices have not changed and I am not responsible for getting 300 more fans in a night. I do understand your point about the economics of basketball. Just so you know the Hawks are a little ahead of where we were at this time last year in attendance and we should expect a bump in the second half and playoffs. BTW- Orlando, which only has one professional team, had just a few more fans than the Hawks last season. Now, their numbers are up but still not top 10. Should their fans not expect an effort to win? For the record, I do not expect the owners to go into the luxury tax. I am with you there.
But the Hawks (or any team) should consider their fans as champions for supporting them, not that the fans should become “championship level” for the team to compete. We tend to let the tail wag the dog too much.
doc
February 17th, 2010
12:56 pm
sautee nicely puts things into perspective at 12:10 regarding blocked shots and their importance. they dont even mean a change of possession like a steal does. even that may mean someone id out of position at other times or maybe over guarding and getting burned more often than steals. two of the best blocks i saw all season were by teague, unfortunately, they followed poor decisions of his on the other end and he was trying to cover his own mistakes. patrick ewing blocked a lot of shots in his day as did mutumbo but they didnt make it to the promised land of championships very often, now did they?
Daniel
February 17th, 2010
12:58 pm
Fundamentals- don’t let those “weak” bloggers bother you. They are going to make the same statements no matter what. Even when the whole blog was written to explain why the Hawks are not in a position to make a big trade.
O'Brien
February 17th, 2010
12:59 pm
From Bill Simmons on espn.com, speaking about Andrew Bynum and Horford.
“I don’t trust him (Bynum) yet. As for Horford, he gives you 95 percent of what Bynum gives you for one-third the price. Did you notice how well he fit in with everyone in the All-Star Game? One of my favorites”.
Its ironic that even around the league, Horford gets so much respect for what he brings to the table, but some fans around here are too blind to see.
NDiiBaBii
February 17th, 2010
1:00 pm
Melvin,
Umm yes Marvin played in the playoffs, he was hurt and he came back early to help us out because Joe wasn’t doing anything
Sautee
February 17th, 2010
1:03 pm
doc,
Thanks. Yeah the Horford haters are pulling their hair out over his All-Star berth.
It just seems to get more shrill by the day. I guess some people have a hard time being shown to be wrong.
Astro Joe
February 17th, 2010
1:03 pm
Daniel, my point is that the ASG has tried and continue to “try” to improve the product. But there may be a line that they will not cross until they get more revenue in the door. And I personally think that is reasonable. Fans talk about “going for it” but if you challenge them to define that, they can’t. Finishing amongst the top 8 in a 30 team league is not what I would personally call mediocre. That’s roughly top 25-30%. But the attendance is bottom 50%. There is something wrong with that picture. And I won’t criticize ownership if they don’t cross that line until that bottom 50% improves to something that more closely resembles the team’s ranking in the league.
Daniel
February 17th, 2010
1:04 pm
Hey “paid for by the Horford…” you are allowed to give whatever opinion you want on here as long as it is clean. But, you are not “critiquing facts” you are giving an opinion. And secondly, no you do not have the “right” to give your opinion on a forum without others getting to critique you. That is called a free speech, you know blogging about the Hawks, etc. Sorry if you feel that know one should tell you that you are wrong but that is the way life works. I hope you can learn that sooner than later. I bet if you do things like a blog or a basketball player or a writer would make you feel so bad about yourself.
Daniel
February 17th, 2010
1:12 pm
Astro- I agree with you that finishing in the top 8 is NOT mediocre. I also don’t think the owners should go into the luxury cap unless it is financially feasible. But, attendance figures lag behind performance by at least 2 years, people need a track record. And, I strongly disagree that attendance figures is the best measure a fan bases’ “right” to expect and root and hope for a winner. I mean isn’t that by definition the nature of a fan?
Daniel
February 17th, 2010
1:16 pm
couple of corrections: of course I meant no one, not “know one” although I like the mistake. and I meant that those things would not make you feel so bad about yourself.
Fundamentals
February 17th, 2010
1:17 pm
No worries here Daniel, just want to push back sometimes when I get tired of the crap. I’ve been off the blog a while cause it has been crap. True Hawks fans realized when Mario signed we tied our own hands in terms of moves before tommorrow. Do we need one? It’s nice to explore options or missed chances, but overall we’re not missing out on anything.
I haven’t really heard any names dangled that really make me want to change our team.
Still no word on who can defend Howard or other “better” bigs. Guess they just got nothin, except the 2nd best center in the East!
Hoping for a great start on this West Coast swing tonight. I’m guessing Josh will come out with some fire!
bad trade
February 17th, 2010
1:20 pm
***BREAKING NEWS***
hawks trade joe johnson and cash to the heat for wade
Now on espn
Fundamentals
February 17th, 2010
1:24 pm
Atlanta’s interior defense hinges on getting Josh & AL working hard together. They can do that night in and night out against anyone except maybe Howard. Sometimes the lack of guard pressure leaves them exposed and helping, but overall we run a tight ship on D. I’ll agree we need a strong backup for Horford come stretch time, but I’m guessing ZaZa will bring it when we need it. He always has, no reason to doubt him now. Hopefully we’ll also use Randmo & Collins to wear down Howard. Didn’t work last time, but who really has kept Howard beat down? NOBODY!
As for dunks – I’ve seen everyone get dunked on from time to time. Are Ewing, Motumbo, Kareem, David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Dwight Howard or Hakeem “bytches” cause they got dunked on regularly? No, most of them are or will be Hall of Fame Centers.
Pick a fight you can actually use facts to win.
You have a right to your opinion. I have a right to prove it sucks!
terrell
February 17th, 2010
1:28 pm
Astro, 13-50 something? When did we win 50 something games? Did I miss something?
wordy
February 17th, 2010
1:34 pm
Get Bosh!
Daniel
February 17th, 2010
1:43 pm
Fundamentals- here is a name for you .. Mike Miller. wouldn’t have to give up much if anything and pick up a half year salary.
Idiot watch
February 17th, 2010
1:49 pm
As for dunks – I’ve seen everyone get dunked on from time to time, but nothing like what happen to w-horeford.
Dick Long
February 17th, 2010
1:51 pm
Excuse me,… is it or is it not a fact that Horford is 18th in the NBA amongst center in block shots?
niremetal
February 17th, 2010
2:06 pm
For the entirety of their existence, Hawks attendance has lagged well behind the team’s record in the standings.
You can blame it on our lack of playoff success if you want. But teams with equally bad or worse postseason performance records do better. You can blame it on the owners if you want. This has persisted through 4 ownerships (Cousins, Turner, AOL, ASG). You can blame it on the lack of superstars, but it has persisted through the coming and going of at least two superstars (Pete and Nique).
The fact that metro Atlanta traditionally cares more about baseball and football than basketball might explain part of it. But the Braves and Falcons have consistently suffered from the same phenomenon – their attendance lags behind their record in the standings (it’s actually even more pronounced with the Braves, but less pronounced with the Falcons – although even the Falcons finished T-11th in the standings but 17th in attendance last year, which actually was an improvement over last year’s T-6th/23rd gap).
The two biggest reasons, I suspect, are simple: 1) Atlanta is a city where most of the adult population was born and raised elsewhere, which strips away the multi-generational loyalties of other teams; 2) football and baseball are the traditional sports pasttimes throughout the region, with football getting the most attention at the HS and college levels and baseball traditionally getting the most attention at the pro level; and 3) Atlanta’s metro area is massively spread out and lacks a unified public transit system (and the system that exists in Fulton and Dekalb sucks), which leads to terrible traffic and is a big deterrent for fans in the suburbs who might otherwise attend games.
Here are the Hawks’ rankings among NBA teams in terms of their ranking in Won/Lost and their ranking in attendance for each of the past 25 years:
1985-86
50-32 (6th in NBA), 19th in attendance = -13
1986-87
57-25 (3rd in NBA), 8th in attendance = -5
1987-88
50-32 (T-7th in NBA), 8th in attendance = -1
1988-89
52-30 (6th in NBA), 11th in attendance = -5
1989-90
41-41 (T-16th in NBA), 17th in attendance = -1
1990-91
52-30 (13th in NBA), 19th in attendance = -6
1991-92
38-44 (T-17th in NBA), 27th in attendance = -10
1992-93
43-39 (12th in NBA), 27th in attendance (worst in NBA) = -15
1993-94
57-25 (T-3rd in NBA), 21st in attendance = -18
1994-95
42-40 (14th in NBA), 26th in attendance = -12
1995-96
46-36 (T-11th in NBA), 27th in attendance = -16
1996-97
56-26 (T-6th in NBA), 27th in attendance = -21
1997-98
50-32 (T-10th in NBA), 14th in attendance = -4
1999
31-19 (T-7th in NBA), 27th in attendance = -20
1999-2000
28-54 (23rd in NBA), 25th in attendance = -2
2000-01
25-57 (24th in NBA), 28th in attendance = -4
2001-02
33-49 (22nd in NBA), 27th in attendance = -5
2002-03
35-47 (22nd in NBA), 28th in attendance = -6
2003-04
28-54 (22nd in NBA), 29th in attendance (worst in league) = -7
2004-05
13-69 (30th/last in NBA), 28th in attendance = +2 (slightly better than Charlotte and NO, the two cities involved in the Hornets relocation fiasco)
2005-06
13-69 (T-26th in NBA), 29th in attendance = -3
2006-07
30-52 (26th in NBA), 26th in attendance = 0
2007-08
37-45 (19th in NBA), 20th in attendance = -1
2008-09
47-35 (12th in NBA), 20th in attendance = -6
This year to date
33-18 (6th in NBA), 20th in attendance = -14
The Hawks have never finished in the top third of the league in attendance (the two times they finished 8th was when the league had 23 teams). And only once in the past 25 years has their attendance ranking exceeded their won/loss ranking. You can try to blame management all you want, but the problem is much more fundamental than that.
niremetal
February 17th, 2010
2:07 pm
*three biggest reasons
Ramon
February 17th, 2010
2:15 pm
I love Horford’s play and what he can bring to the table. But I won’t lie, if I was Sund and the salaries matched, I would have considered a Horford/Bibby and 1st pick for Amare and Barbosa.