Hawks Squawks: Thunder 106, Hawks 99
Durant 2, Hawks 0. (Layne Murdoch/NBAE/Getty Images)
– Too much Kevin Durant (again), too many defensive breakdowns for the Hawks. “Defensively we were nonexistent in the second half,” Woody told FSN South’s James Verrett. “That third quarter was a bad defensive effort.”
– The Hawks pretty much controlled Durant in the second half but let Russell Westbrook get loose and kept giving up rebounds. The Thunder is a good rebounding team but 17 offensive boards?
– And what about nine boards for Westbrook vs. five for Al, six for Smoove and six for Marvin?
– The Thunder collected 28 of the Hawks’ 39 misses (72 percent). The Hawks got 26 of the Thunder’s 44 misses (59 percent).
– The Hawks got within two when Durant made a couple jumpers and set up his teammates for two scores. That was it. He’s the first player since Allen Iverson nine seasons ago to score at least 25 points in 22 consecutive games
– Durant is for real. He also gets a lot of calls. Tough to say where one ends and the other begins.
– J.J. (37 points) was feeling it. He prevented the Hawks from getting blown out in the third. And even though he wasn’t getting calls, he got to the line for eight free throws.
– This wasn’t one of those games where the Hawks had something else working and went away for it for Iso-Joe. J.J. was what the Hawks had working, they went away from him early in the fourth, and the offense stalled. “He had it going, ” Woody said. “We were picking and choosing (going to other guys) but we weren’t consistent offensively.”
– ‘Nique was calling for J.J. to come off screens instead of running isos. He got his wish late but it only served to clog things up for J.J. The Thunder was able to double him and force him to give up the ball, and no one else could make big shots at the right time.
– “We made a game of it in the fourth but then we shot ourselves out of it,” Woody said.
– But, really, this loss wasn’t about the offense. “We weren’t too flat but we just couldn’t get stops,” Woody said. “Defensively and rebounding the basketball, we are struggling a little bit in those two areas. Those are the main two areas you’ve got to be clicking to win games, especially on the road.”
– I saw one Iso-Joe in the fourth quarter though not sure if I should include it in the count because it wasn’t a called play. Al set a screen and his man doubled J.J., who backed out and decided to take Thabo Sefolosha one-on-one. He lost the ball out of bounds on the drive. Looked like a foul but goes down as a turnover.
– The Hawks put some good traps on Durant, particularly Zaza, who was showing hard. Trapping Durant might have worked if the Hawks rebounded the ball when his teammates missed.
– More early minutes for Joe Smith. He rebounded and played solid D. I still get the feeling he’s going to help the Hawks in the playoffs. He’s the kind of vet who knows how to stay ready.
– Al is making strong moves to the basket but was missing chippies lately. So it was good to see that dunk off a Bibby feed in the third quarter. But where was he in the fourth?
– Smoove is so much better when he catches the ball and immediately makes his move. When he pauses, it gives defenders a chance to scrape at the ball once he puts it on the floor.
– He’s really good at taking hard bumps and still getting off his shot. And did you see his drive and kick to J.J.? Where did that come from?
– Smoove got his 1,000th career block. He’s the youngest to do it.
– Dang ‘Rio hung in the air for that tip dunk. A little extra bounce in his step due to the new cheese?
– Marvin was just kind of out there. He really can make something happen when he attacks the basket but then he settles for jumpers and finishes his moves going away from the basket.
– Bibby’s shot seems to be back. He also was setting guys up. Hawks need that more than once every three or four nights.
– Jeff Teague was a pest on defense, made a nice runner and generally didn’t foul up. That jumper is going to take time, though.
– Hawks almost got screwed on another shotclock error. Woody was going crazy until Hawks got the ball back.
– The Magic won again. The Hawks are two games behind in the Southeast. Earlier reports had Paul Pierce missing significant time for the Celtics but now it looks like that’s not the case.
– I’m out, Hawks fans.
MC
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145 comments Add your comment
Taylor
February 3rd, 2010
12:05 am
first? man we really messed up getting marvin williams
Geemack
February 3rd, 2010
12:25 am
Michael Cunningham
Effort and instensity cost the Hawks this win on the defensive end.
Harpie
February 3rd, 2010
12:26 am
Woodson stinks
Geemack
February 3rd, 2010
12:26 am
intencity
Rod from College Park
February 3rd, 2010
12:28 am
Wabe,
“JJ did his thing. I’d say Smoove showed up tonight as well. Bibby and Al had their moments. Whose the lone starter that essentially gave the Hawks nothing again tonight both from an offensive and defensive perspective?”
Would the answer be MARVIN WILLIAMS? Over our last 3 games against playoff caliber teams he has scored 4points, 7 points and 4 points. No offensive production while allowing Pierce to go for 35 and Durant to go for 33 both over their season averages. But the very knowledgeable ASTRO JOE and TRACEMAN will tell me I am crazy for saying Marvin is not a good defender. OK GUYS.
Astro Joe
“Rod, I think it is clear that you are the only one (or close to it) who thinks that Marvin is “not even an average defender at his position”.
Really!!!! Check the responses above.
Traceman,
“As for Marvin’s D, he does a good job. He has not been quite as good this year as he was last year but he has still been solid.”
He has huh. LOL. You guys are some comedians.
Wes
February 3rd, 2010
12:29 am
I say keep Marvin, trade Mo Evans and a draft pick to get Tayshaun Prince. That would add some depth, a better scorer & defender off the bench who can guard multiple players.
I figure if we tweak too much (we need better perimeter defense, but Mario West is what appears to be the Hawks only solution this year), team chemistry will suffer.
Grandad
February 3rd, 2010
12:30 am
So, Marvin lost the game tonight? Well I’ll be darned.
Funny, because I was watching him guard the pee outa his man.
I also disagree with MC, Marv is not a slasher.
Now I must admit to seeing only the 2nd half
I suppose Wdsn understands that when you trap, you then must recover,
otherwise opponent has a free rebounder [Westbrook] without a body
on him to box out.
One last item, a screen can be set for Joe away from the ball, in order for him to be open when he recieves it. Could have been what Nique had in mind, or not.?
Dante Fitzgerald
February 3rd, 2010
12:38 am
FIRE MIKE WOODSON!!!
Wabe
February 3rd, 2010
12:58 am
I’m not saying Marvin lost this game. We lost this game on the glass. That stat in MC’s article is telling of this:
“And what about nine boards for Westbrook vs. five for Al, six for Smoove and six for Marvin?”
There’s enough blame to go around for this loss.
I pointed out Marvin because it’s just disappointing to get that kind of production with those minutes. To be honest, watching him throughout the game, he never looks to create for himself. He’s always looking to pass, never create for himself. Whether it be his confidence or his lack of ability can be debated. All I’m saying is, the production isn’t there. We’ve gotta get more out of the 3.
I’m pulling for Marvin, but he’s gotta produce.
richbrave
February 3rd, 2010
1:00 am
I have it on good authority the new ownership of the WIZARDS wants to start off right by establishing a solid base of operations for their newly purchased franchise. Therefore,they are suggesting a trade of head coaches, FLIP SAUNDERS for WOODY while retaining the superior judge of talent, ERNIE GRUNFELD as GM. LOL.
CRITTER sighting. JAVARIS CRITTENTON told the players union not to contest his season long suspension thereby finishing his career with the WIZARDS. The D.C. franchise did not extend his contract at option time, and he becomes a FA in July. GRUNFELD in essence fired him for playing in the HOTLANTA league last July against orders and getting hurt.
Rod from College Park
February 3rd, 2010
1:27 am
Grandad,
Again, I don’t like to disrespect my elders, but it might be time for an annual eye exam. If you saw Marvin guard anybody you might be in early stage Alzheimer’s. You can’t continue to get dominated on the defensive end, and not make your man work on the offensive end. Even Dominique realized that.
Mac-Town'z Finest 478
February 3rd, 2010
3:43 am
“– Smoove is so much better when he catches the ball and immediately makes his move. When he pauses, it gives defenders a chance to scrape at the ball once he puts it on the floor.”
exactly as I’ve been saying. If he had more plays that resulted in him cutting to the basket, receiving the rock in a fast flow of action for a dunk, or quick move to the rim for a lay up, etc…maybe ONE dribble and up…that would be cool…but all of that dribbling by him just doesnt cut it MOST of the time
Steven A.
February 3rd, 2010
5:40 am
WHERE’S “TREE” ROLLINS?
NO DEFENSE OFF THE BENCH!
HAWKS WILL NOT MAKE IT OUT OF THE FIRST ROUND THIS YEAR…..I GUARANTEE IT.
Over paid for Zsa Zsa and getting NOTHING from Jason Collins. No defensive stopper period!
Watch these clowns Draft another point guard or 6″8″ forward and bypass a guy like
DeAndre Jordan, Javelle Mcgee, OR Robin Lopez, even Marc Gasol, the lesser of the Gasol
brothers would help this team get over the hump. HEy, i’d even settle for 59 year old
Wayne “TREE ROLLINS”
justahawkfan
February 3rd, 2010
6:16 am
Last night is a good example of how a super star is made: if the referees give any starter on the hawks team that many trips (Kevin Durant) to the foul line we would have several super stars. Where is the justice in the NBA?
Astro Joe
February 3rd, 2010
7:20 am
One of the next steps in Smith’s development is when he demands to take on guarding the hot scorer late in a game. And don’t tell me about coaches making that decision, we have all heard stories of how players will demand the chance to shut down a guy on fire late in a game. I would have liked to see Smith take a turn at Durant last night. No, Smith is not a great defender on the perimeter but he certainly has better size than Joe. I doubt that Smith would have done much better than anyone else on KD, but it would have been nice to see. I’d like to see him take on Lebron and Pierce and some other guys in late game situations as well. Just give those guys a different defensive look and give Joe a little relief from having to be the principle player on both ends of the floor. I’m not complaining, Smith is obviously having his best season. I’m just suggesting what might be the next step up for him.
Clyde
February 3rd, 2010
7:34 am
FIRE WOODY
vava74
February 3rd, 2010
7:37 am
My take on yesterday after sleeping over it:
1. Woody had it wrong when he did not adjust to the opponent again: when we are giving up too many offensive rebounds to OKC we should have stop switching and clamp down the rebounding.
2. Although JJ had a terrific game, it is not that frequent that when a player capitalizes the offense the team gets the win. We should have gone to Josh and Al even if that meant taking the risk of losing the game.
Players who are involved on the offense tend to work harder on defense and on rebounding.
3. The refs killed us. Simple examples? Charging foul by Westbrook on Josh converted in 2+1, Sefolosha hitting JJ’s arms when he was dribbling several times resulting in turnovers and on the other side, JJ’s defense on Durant resulted in fouls being called.
Hence, I think we need to shake up the line up.
I continue to thing that my suggestion of yesterday, made on the Hawks’ Nest should be tried:
Start Mo at the SG slot (his natural position and where he does not give up size). He is sufficiently good when plays significant minutes but is a poor performer with limited minutes. Also, this would not give up too much ground on defense.
Put JJ on the SF slot where he can play point forward with Bibby and Mo lurking around the 3 point line.
Crawford in for Bibby as soon as Bibby shows that either he is not shooting well or is giving too much ground on defense.
If Bibby is working well, Crawford can get in for Mo. Bibby should be limited to 22/28 minutes to keep him fresh and used as a steadying element and 4th quarter sniper.
Feature Marvin as the second team’s offensive focus – playing 20/22 minutes – against lesser opponents in order to see if he gets out of his slumber.
Get Teague to play around 16/20 minutes to close the 1st quarter and start the 2nd and to finish the 3rd and start the 4th.
Play Collins instead of Zaza in order to see if his bulk helps closing down the lane and get more rebounds and see if he can get into game shape by playing.
Put Zaza in a suit for a couple of weeks watching video montages of russian soldiers invading Georgia wearing D12 jerseys
E43
February 3rd, 2010
8:07 am
i thought the bench just didnt get it to drop last night. i liked seeing most of the team get deployed.I honestly think we should continue to play like this to keep as many knives sharp in the kitchen for the playoffs. Jamal had not as great a game but at least we know we have enough fire power to deploy the main team and have a chance of beating 500+teams despite him not lighting it up.
terrell
February 3rd, 2010
8:12 am
Remember when everyone was praising Sund earlier in the year? The trade for Crawford was an excellent move, I agree. But tying up nearly 12 mill a year for Zaza and Marvin was a horrible move. Morris could give us as much production as Zaza can, and ANYBODY could take over for Marvin and we wouldn’t miss a beat. Still dont know why we didn’t let him play out his contract(1 year) before we re-signed him?? And btw, the Pacers are trying to move Troy Murphy. How bout Marvin and Zaza for Murphy and a player?
Clyde
February 3rd, 2010
8:13 am
Resigning Bibby, Zaza and Marvin was a complete waste of money.
tjhook
February 3rd, 2010
8:21 am
I’m beginning to resent Marvin Williams. By accepting the Hawks’ contract, he told fans that he was ready to bring it. He did not deserve what he signed for and now we are having to eat it. Please – TRADE HIM!!
tjhook
February 3rd, 2010
8:22 am
for James Posey (who is with the Hornets)
Astro Joe
February 3rd, 2010
8:28 am
Vava, Durant had more touches than Joe (when you include the FTAs) and it worked out pretty well for them. Kristic had fewer FGAs than Horford and Smith yet out-rebounded both in fewer minutes. Sorry, but the notion that guys won’t crash the boards unless they receive x number of FGAs just stinks to me. If that’s the case, we need to trade half the team for Varejao… someone who doesn’t seem to care about anything other than owning the glass.
terrell
February 3rd, 2010
8:31 am
Agrred, Clyde. Now if Sund messes around and gives Woody a new deal, he’ll be worse than BK. Already gave 3 bums a total of nearly 17 mill$ a year. Wow!
JeJe
February 3rd, 2010
8:41 am
THIS GAME IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF WOODSON NOT USING THE BENCH WHEN THE GAME IS CLOSE. HE STICKS TO THE SAME LINEUP REGARDLESS OF WHETHER IT IS WORKING OR NOT
HOW THE HELL DID JOE KEEP GETTING STRIPPED WHEN HE DROVE THE LANE? PATHETIC. I DON’T THINK KOBE LEBRON OR D.WADE WOULD LET THAT HAPPEN. OH WAIT–THEY’RE ACTUALLY SUPERSTARS. LOLOLOL
FIRE WOODSON AND GET RID OF DEADWEIGHTS MARVIN AND BIBBY. TWO USELESS BASKETBALL PLAYERS. AWFUL CONTRACTS AND CANNOT PRODUCE ANYMORE
O'Brien
February 3rd, 2010
8:43 am
The switching was not working, but didn’t we go to a zone for parts of the second half? The problem was when OKC missed, we couldn’t get the rebound. That is on the players. A big part of rebounding is about effort.
This loss was a team loss. Nobody rebounded consistently on defense, and offensively, nobody could get it going (consistently) to help out JJ. And we got out coached too.
ZaZa has regressed this year, and Al hasn’t looked the same since his hand injury. Our center position needs to step it up.
Marvin has regressed this year, especially offensively (and I think he was playing better defense earlier in the season). He has to step it up, especially his defense and rebounding.
I think Bibby is also on the decline this season.
Clyde,
It’s ironic that the 3 guys who Sund resigned seem to have regressed. But I liked the ZaZa signing. The only thing I don’t like about the Bibby deal was they gave him 3 years instead of 2. And I was glad we resigned Marvin, keeping the team intact.
The thing that bothered me about the Marvin signing was Sund thought very little of Chills (even referring to him as a utility player, although Chills was the one who Woody would have in the game at the end, not Marvin). But yet Sund thought enough of Marvin to give him the contract that he did.
terrell,
Thats a good point about letting Marvin play out his contract, or let the Market determine his value. But remember, it’s always easy to look back in hindsight, and it’s easy to play armchair GM (which I’m always doing).
But to be fair, Marvin still has 4.5 years left on his deal, plenty of time to turn it around. And the Hawks need him to turn it around ASAP
N-Trigue
February 3rd, 2010
8:48 am
Mike Woodson made us loose this game! He stayed with the reserves too long in the beggining of the 2nd Qtr….Josh and Jow shouldve came back sooner. Im sorry Joe Smith does not have the same presense defensively as Josh and they took advantage while the starters were out and kept the game close. We couldve had a lead at halftime if we started the 2nd qtr off right. Josh was hot and Joe was too…Too many times during the game we abandon giving the ball to the players that are hot. I would play Mario more when we are in those games where are defense is not clicking! I know weve been wanting Woody to trust his bench players more but this was not the game it didnt call for that…Woody tends too overthink too much and then were stuck with a loss at the end to an mediocre team!
Mike is Back
February 3rd, 2010
9:17 am
I may be way off on my take…besides the poor officiating…and inadequate match ups on Durant…the Hawks have a bigger dilemma.
WHAT TO DO ABOUT BIBBY??????????????????????????????????????????????????
Bibby is a warrior…but clearly, his diminished mobility makes him a liability whenever he is on the floor. His leadership and three points shooting can no longer offset his liability on defense. It puts the team in scramble mode trying to provide help defense on his man…the switching defense only highlights this problem. Westbrook was able to roam free to get offensive rebounds or break us down and get to the hole at will.
Woody will have to significantly reduce Bibby’s minutes, if he expects to get anything out of him for the playoffs. Bibby is making the effort…his body just can’t handle the load. Hopefully, the All Star break will give him a reprieve…its only going to get worst as the season wears on.
Teague is starting to show some signs…maybe its time to let the young fellow play a more minutes. What other options do we have?????????????????????
WTF was Marvin thinking on that play before Woody took him out the game…jez. We need to bring Marvin off the bench…he is not a starter…he is a role player.
darrell starks
February 3rd, 2010
9:31 am
BIBBY AND MARVIN MUST MAKE A CHANGE.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!
bigdave
February 3rd, 2010
9:34 am
i thought when Joe was on Durant he did a great Job… Joe is a position defender and got in on Durant forcing him to either take a highly contested shot or put the ball on the floor where he is an avg finisher. while Marvin, though contesting, gave him too much room and comfort. Jamal was also caught on Durant and it was easy buckets…
darrell starks
February 3rd, 2010
9:34 am
Bibby is still limping is he hurt or what but either or he should not be starting.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!
N-Trigue
February 3rd, 2010
9:36 am
Trade Bibby and Marvin for a another post player!!!
dvj
February 3rd, 2010
9:38 am
Marvin Williams is a burst.He can’t hit an open shot for nothing.He is not aggresive going to the basket,plays like he’s scared.How about play like you know you can score,which he don’t.Tell me one good thing he does on a nightly base.I hope I not the only one see this…
darrell starks
February 3rd, 2010
9:39 am
Marvin no way he should be starting he has lost his confidence, i think bring him of the bench would bring his sense of urge back and plus the bench would be stonger.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!
bigdave
February 3rd, 2010
9:39 am
my thing with Marvin from an offensive production stand point is based on making his opposition play defense. on most NBA teams a great deal of scoring comes from your 2 and 3. opposing 2’s have there work cut out for them against the Hawks. however, guarding Marvin Williams is not much of a challenge, im sorry. Marvin made a nice move yesterday from a quick spin and floater/runner. however, im noticing him fading… falling away… or drifting on his jumper. what is this all about? im definitely not opposed to seeing Moe (not a big fan) start at 2 and move JJ to 3 just to see what happens. im sure Mo can knock down those open looks that penetration from Joe usually gets Marvin at a higher clip. even at inches taller Mo is a better finisher that Marvin if he was forced to put the ball on the floor.
bigdave
February 3rd, 2010
9:40 am
the major flaw in starting Mo is limiting our team rebounding even further… oh how i miss the f-in BASELINE BUM!!! CHILLY-O!!! COME SAVE US!!!
bigdave
February 3rd, 2010
9:44 am
WE SENT THE WRONG GUY TO EUROPE!!! WE PLAYED HARDBALL WITH THE WRONG GUY!!!
Daniel
February 3rd, 2010
9:52 am
I am going into full whiner mode here so bear with me.
What the sam heck is going on with the officiating? Durant gets a hand breeze by him and he gets a foul. Joe gets hammered over and over an no call??? What gives? For real??
bigdave
February 3rd, 2010
9:57 am
Daniel…
some feel its not the refs… Joe needs to to a better job at “selling” his fouls… kinda how Durant sold his??? Joe from now on go into seizure like spasms every time you’re touched…
Daniel
February 3rd, 2010
9:59 am
I hear ya big dave, but watching last nights game, I didn’t see Durant doing a lot of “selling” and Joe was getting HAMMERED. what can he do?
darrell starks
February 3rd, 2010
10:04 am
Check out this scenario, okay this trade right here will send the hawks 2 the finals, monta ellis is on the trade block monta ellis, andris biedrins for bibby, marvin, zaza and a first, ellis is 24 biedrins is 23.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!
cp
February 3rd, 2010
10:08 am
The crazy thing about this season is the number of wins we have considering that our starting pg and sf have been pretty much non existent for most of the year. The production from Bibby and Marvin have been inconsistent or just not there many times this year. Bibby deal was 2 years too long. Marvin is just too passive and I don’t know if even moving him to the bench will help because then he will defer to Crawford. We have to start getting production from these two positions.
darrell starks
February 3rd, 2010
10:09 am
STARTE MONTA ELLIS, JOE, JOSH, HORFORD, ANDRIS BIEDRINS.
BENCH TEAGUE, JAMAL, MOE, JOE SMITH, MORRIS.
RESERVE MARIO, COLLINS.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!
Melvin
February 3rd, 2010
10:11 am
Astro,
You sure know how to play on both sides of the fense or show I just call you a homer (to be nice). You are quick to defend Marvin when others trash him then you comeback say “it would be nice to see Josh guard the hot scorer late in the game” in which you name three SF’s (Pierce,KD,Lebron) for Josh to guard. If Marvin is such a good defender than why do you want Josh to guard those guys? Let me guess, b/c Marvin cant guard anyone while he’s on the bench. Its funny how Marvin is more likely to finish the game on the bench than being the closer. This is the third year (really the 4th excluding his rookie season) that we seen Marvin not be apart of the closing line up (JChill, Flip, now Jamal). Where’s this great defender that everyone label him as. Rod show you the opposing players numbers that exceed their avg (feel free to post your rebuttal stats). Can Marvin at least get his scoring avg on offense? Yes, my patient has grown thin with him. How about lets see our defensive stopper role expand by guarding some of the better scoring PF (Bosh,KG,Dirk, Zach)???
darrell starks
February 3rd, 2010
10:11 am
We get our point plus we get our center.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!
terrell
February 3rd, 2010
10:16 am
Bibby and Marvin for Troy Murphy and player.(Dauntay Jones/Earl Watson). Heard Indy was trying to move Murphy.
Duluth Danny
February 3rd, 2010
10:19 am
I will jump on board with Daniel. Refs were horrible last night. Especially in the time span of like 3 minutes through 1 minute to go when it was a 2 point game. Tick tack foul for Durant. JJ gets hammered cutting through the lane without call. Then JJ does the wrap around poke of the ball, which would have ended up in a breakaway layup that they call. Just not consistant.
That being said I thought before this game that OKC is playing better ball than we are and they are. For a few weeks here teams have killed us on the boards. Duncan career high. Howard twenty something. We do so much switching and doubling to try to mask our defensive inablities and our lack of size, and I think teams are starting to really figure out how to “unveil” that mask and create opportunities for offensive rebounding. We really need to buckle down and put forth maximum effort on the D boards these next few weeks.
We cannot trade Bibby right now. I do not want Crawford playing point and getting wore out. Teague is def not ready. Just go with what we got. I’m not happy with Marvin lately either, but we don’t run anything through him ever. And at least he gives effort defensively and on the boards. We are soo much better with motion offense when a bunch of people get touches, but we seem happy to ISO these days for the most part.
Rod from College Park
February 3rd, 2010
10:21 am
bigdave,
“the major flaw in starting Mo is limiting our team rebounding even further… oh how i miss the f-in BASELINE BUM!!! CHILLY-O!!! COME SAVE US!!!”
Joe is a better rebounder than Marvin from the 2 spot, so obviously he would be better from the 3 spot. As a matter of fact, I would be willing to say that anything Marvin can do at the 3, Joe could do better.
vava74,
“Feature Marvin as the second team’s offensive focus – playing 20/22 minutes – against lesser opponents in order to see if he gets out of his slumber.”
I would much rather Mo starting at the 2 and Joe at the 3. I actually stated this at the beginning of the year, but I substituted Crawford with Mo. We would become a much better team right away. The only problem I have with your statement is the feature Marvin part. Marvin would probably be worse, if we tried to feature him with the second unit because then he would have someone guarding him. It really does not matter who he is on the floor with. He never stands out. The majority of his points now come from wide open layups or jumpshots. He can not score when he is defended. If I were the Hawks, I would seriously look into trying to acquire Tayshaun Prince (if healthy) or Rip Hamilton from Detroit. Either would force Marvin to the bench and make us a much better defensive and offensive team. If you leave Tayshaun wide open like teams do Marvin, he would make you pay by knocking down the open mid range jumper or putting the ball on the floor and getting to the hole. Rip would bring another scoring threat, an active defender and open the floor up more for Joe. Either guy would tremendously help the Hawks. Neither would have a problem understanding Woody because they come from the holy grail team (Detroit). I think a move at the 3, whether it be changing the starting lineup, or a trade for another 3 is the only move that can reallistically be made, which would not seriously affect team chemistry.
Melvin
February 3rd, 2010
10:21 am
bigdave,
I see ya throwing jabs at my “selling fouls” suggestion. I still say Joe need to do that, at least in the early stage of the game and maybe he can get some of the those (touch) foul calls in the late stage of the game. Heck, by him not floppings sure ain’t getting him any extra calls. Even Josh draw fouls at a higher clip than Joe. I’ve seen Josh bailout several times by the refs…LOL
terrell
February 3rd, 2010
10:23 am
Duluth Danny, thats why I included Earl Watson in the trade. Bibby and Marvin for Murphy and Watson. The salaries match.
terrell
February 3rd, 2010
10:29 am
Or Zaza and Marvin for Murphy and Dauntay Jones.
Rod from College Park
February 3rd, 2010
10:31 am
Melvin,
Exactly about Astro Joe. He just told me what a great defender Marvin was, now it should have been Josh’s responsibility to guard MArvin’s man. These are also the same guys who told me I was crazy for saying that MArvin was not our best on ball defender. They actually had nerve to say Marvin was a better on ball defender than Josh. Pure comedy. If Josh is guarding Durant, who will rebound?
Barry Gee
February 3rd, 2010
10:32 am
Here’s my list of the Hawks MAJOR problems:
1. Mike Woodson has ABSOLUTELY NO OFFENSIVE GAME PLAN.
2. I love Horford but he is NOT A CENTER, WE NEED A TRUE 5.
3. Josh Smith still taking that 15-20 Foot Jumper
4. Bibby has regressed, he is not shooting the ball well.
5. I’m sorry but Marvin Williams, you are now officially a BUST!
6. Josh Smith trying to dribble too much
7. Woodson not playing TEAGUE and not giving him any confidence
8. The Hawks switching on defense is lazy at best, STAY WITH YOUR MAN.
9. They don’t seem to be inspired at times
10. They leave too many guys open NIGHTLY!
Publix
February 3rd, 2010
10:34 am
I would move BIBBY for Sessions and trade Marvin and Zaza for Murphy.
Start: Sessions, Joe, Josh, Horford, Murphy
Bench: Teague, Crawford, Evans, Smith, Morris
Championship team!
Publix
February 3rd, 2010
10:35 am
and you are saving a ton of money for the upcoming free agency
Barry Gee
February 3rd, 2010
10:36 am
I would trade Marvin and Za Za for Tayshaun Prince and another player in a heartbeat. Is it me or has Marvin Williams been GOD AWFUL this year? Marvin Williams is a bust and should be traded immediately following the season or maybe before the trading deadline. As is, we will NOT beat Cleveland or Orlando.
terrell
February 3rd, 2010
10:38 am
I bet if Lebron was on the Nets, they’d be better than the Hawks. Seriously.
Melvin
February 3rd, 2010
10:38 am
I don’t like the idea of starting Joe at SF. That would require him to defend bigger players on defense. He is already Mr. Do-It-All for this team. He defends the opposing team best perimeter player from 1-3 spot. Why put more pressure on him to guard the opposing team best scorer for the entire game? I would prefer he use most of his energy on offense like the other great scorers in the game (KD, Melo, Bron, Kobe, Wade). We need a guy who can defend and score at SF spot therefore allowing Joe to concentrate more energy on offense (i.e. bring back Chills). Get it done Sund…
terrell
February 3rd, 2010
10:40 am
Barry Gee, the problem is, who wants Marvin? Gotta get some idiot to take him 1st. lol!
Rod from College Park
February 3rd, 2010
10:44 am
As much as I hate to say it, because I really do repect the way Joe plays the game (no whining, and arguing about calls), and old statement comes to mind. “When in Rome, do as the Romans.” All of the great players get calls because they scream at the refs. It is an NBA (Stern) thing, but it also is a form a psychology. If you convince the refs that everytime you miss a shot, someone had to foul you, they eventually start believing it. Another phrase that applies is “Quiet mouths don’t get fed.” In order to get more calls, Joe will have to change his approach or his demeaner. Name me one guy in the league, who is a superstar who does not bark at the refs constantly. I can think of one or two, and that’s Tim Duncan and Durant, and they both still do it frequently.
Rod from College Park
February 3rd, 2010
10:49 am
Melvin,
“I don’t like the idea of starting Joe at SF. That would require him to defend bigger players on defense.”
He does it now anyways. All of those guys you named, Joe ends up checking them anyway. With him and Mo on the floor, it would be no different than with him and Marvin. I actually have been impressed with Joe guarding those players. He seems to be the only player besides Josh and Mario, who has any success defensively on those guys.
vava74
February 3rd, 2010
10:54 am
Astro,
Durant made quite a few shots coming off picks (although he did handle a lot of plays as well on ISO situations).
The fact that Krstic had more rebounds will few touches does not overrule the fact that, typically, bigs are more active in the boards if they are more involved on offense.
Krstic example is no good for me since he is a role player and knows it, whilst Josh and Al are not and are psychologically less prepared to withstand huge droughts due to lack of touches.
I rather see JJ racking up 10 assists and scoring 22 than what we had yesterday.
With this I am not saying that JJ is not valuable in ISO situations and that he carries us many times, HOWEVER, since he is a shooter, it is up to the coach to refrain him from forcing too much beyond the limit like he sometimes does, by over handling or launching 3 pointers early in the shot clock without our bigs boxing out.
Rod,
Crawford as a starter would make us a lot more fragile defensively and I really think that offensively he is more poised and knows better how to generate points if he has time to evaluate the game flow from the bench. Mo would be the blue collar guy in the back court and would produce enough to justify his minutes.
As for Marvin, I still consider him to be an important chip and sufficiently talented to warrant our patience, however, it is obvious that he needs a jolt and that must come from Woody.
Benching him and DEMANDING him to be aggressive with the second unit should do the trick.
I suspect that due to last year’s injuries and the less touches on offense he is mentally blocked and is even less aggressive than his normal self. Since he was a sixth man in NC, I think he could adapt well to that role, even if only temporarily.
In the event that he continued apathetic, I would get RandMo in and go extra big with our second unit (Joe Smith, Zaza/Collins, RandMo). Joe can spread the defenses with his Js and Collins would provide low post offense. Collins/Zaza would provide the banging.
Since most second units are not only less talented but typically less tall, I think it could work in many situations, in particular on the rebounding side since Crawford would certainly jack up a lot of Js.
If the opponents were playing small, we could use West in spot occasions.
theZaZaguy
February 3rd, 2010
10:59 am
We got out rebounded and lost the turnover battle. Hard to win when that happens. I wonder what the correlation is between wins and turnover ratio wins? I bet it would track pretty closely.
Wednesday Bolts – 2.3.10 | Daily Thunder.com
February 3rd, 2010
11:01 am
[...] From Hawks Squawks, the AJC’s blog: “Durant is for real. He also gets a lot of calls. Tough to say where one ends and the other begins … I saw one Iso-Joe in the fourth quarter though not sure if I should include it in the count because it wasn’t a called play. Al set a screen and his man doubled J.J., who backed out and decided to take Thabo Sefolosha one-on-one. He lost the ball out of bounds on the drive. Looked like a foul but goes down as a turnover.” [...]
ILL-logical
February 3rd, 2010
11:02 am
Following up on VaVa74’s 10:54 post, one thing that struck me last night was how unathletic the Hawk’s second unit is, especially in the front court.
This factor may become critical when facing the Magic/ Cavs. Perhaps a tweek in the starting line up/ the addition of one of ,for instance,Wizard’s young bigs could be accomplished before the playoffs.
Melvin
February 3rd, 2010
11:02 am
Rod,
Joe does guard those guys during crunch time or when he move to SF which I prefer but not to start the game. Let him take the smaller or weaker guy to start the game.
The way I see, the Hawks need to upgrade the PG or SF spot. We can’t be deficient at both positions, undersize in the paint and expect this team to be good defensively. Besides, this team doesn’t have the size and length to be a great defensive team. If the Hawks are remain with the current undersize frontcourt, than they better upgrade on the perimeter positions.
darrell starks
February 3rd, 2010
11:18 am
Look monta ellis, and joe in the back court would be the best in the nba, josh, horford, biedrins would be the best defensive front court in the nba, that line up of monta, joe, josh, horford, biedrins would be and up grade at every position.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!
dhawk
February 3rd, 2010
11:21 am
vava74, we fell way behind in the 3rd because no one could convert offensively running plays for Horford, Smooth, Bibby, etc. Down 13 and about to get blowed out, JJ just took over to get us back in the game. Once we caught up with about 4 minutes to go, Woody wanted to give JJ a break (who played the entire 2nd half btw), by running plays for others. The lead started to increase again for OKC. Bottom line our frontcourt got outrebounded badly and offensively didn’t have it last night, even though there was no Duncan or D.Howard to stop them.
MuscleFlexer
February 3rd, 2010
11:34 am
The Hawks employed a DUMB strategy last night to beat the Thunder instead of a simple one. OK, we know that Kevin Durant is one of the top scorers in the nba, that is no secret to anyone. Green went off for 19 points but the rest of the thunder were fairly silent. Why not DOUBLE TEAM KEVIN DURANT FROM THE BEGINNING, and force him to give up the ball to his teammates. This strategy would have worked and the Hawks would have had a “W”. It works because Durants supporting cast are not world beaters and they are not going to destroy you. This strategy wont work with the Orlando Magic because if you double Dwight Howard, the magic have phenomical 3-point shooters out on the perimeter and they will knock them down. But against the Thunder, that is what you do to secure the victory. Oh well, maybe next time the Hawks will do the right thing.
vava74
February 3rd, 2010
11:34 am
dhawk,
I saw the game, however, it’s a “text book situation” known by most coaches and accepted as gospel: most bigs have to be involved on offense from the early going in order to produce well.
It’s difficult to get Al or Josh involved in the low post when the game is half way, their mind set and focus are lost and that reflects badly on the defensive end and on the boards particularly.
We started really well with a bunch of stops and we could have jumped easily out of the gates with a 15 point advantage in the first 8 minutes, however, instead of going inside we started to jack up jumpers. It was out right ugly and at that stage JJ was 2 for 6, Marvin 1 for 4, Bibby 0 for 2, Mo 0 for 1…
I know that Al was also 1 for 4 at that stage with 3 bricks down low, however, I would have continued to feed him since his dominance of Krstic would come sooner rather than later. Also, Josh was then 3-3 and even so he was not getting the rock as he should have.
I MUS WRITE
February 3rd, 2010
11:52 am
Let me just start off by saying that Marvin Gaye Williams is a Wack Sandwich. I thought he would at a minimum be as good as last year boi was i wrong…..
DING!!!!- Publix -I would be all over both those trades.
Sessions is an average shooter but he thrives at getting to the rim and playing D. Bibby’s shot has’nt really been falling all year and he hurts us defensively -playing with the ankle weights… Minnesota absolutely wont do this trade but Sessions would be a nice fit
Murphy for Zaza/Marvin I dont think Indiana does this either but we could get 2 players in one if they would….Long range shooting and 12 boards a game -sign me up.
Is Hakim Warrwick available
Duluth Danny
February 3rd, 2010
11:54 am
All that trade talk is fun but really who wants Bibby or Marvin Williams? Terrible contracts.
MOTION OFFENSE and more straight up d. Heck the zone seemed to work last night but he went back to the switch on all defense again. Teams are figuring that out and it is killing us, especially on the D boards.
jean
February 3rd, 2010
11:55 am
its amazing how joe can have his best game and still choke down the stretch…no tmake the right pass lose the ball force a shot…….he burns of 15 second of the clock even when we are loseing
darrell starks
February 3rd, 2010
12:06 pm
Duluth golden state is making a change ellis is on the trade block, if the hawks can get ellis and biedrins it would benefit both team they get bibby, marvin, zaza, and a first, for ellis and biedrins neither team could go wrong plus zaza could starte and they get our first and marvin need a change.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!
I MUS WRITE
February 3rd, 2010
12:07 pm
Darrell-U do know Bedrinis and Monte would cost us about 23 milli a year.
Tyger
February 3rd, 2010
12:14 pm
Hawks are flawed and need a trade for a legitimate 7fter and shooter.
Tracy Morgan
February 3rd, 2010
12:18 pm
I wub it, I WUB IT!
darrell starks
February 3rd, 2010
12:31 pm
PLUS CONTRACT WILL EVEN OUT SINCE YOU GUYS LIKE 2 USE THE TRADE MACHINE, and throw in the right of afro puffs contract no way golden state turn down that offer.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!
darrell starks
February 3rd, 2010
12:34 pm
BIBBY 2MILL, MARVIN 8MILL, CHILL 6MILL, ZAZA 5MILL= 21 MILL
MONTA 11MILL, BIEDRINS 9MILL= 20MILL
GO HAWKS!!!!!
O'Brien
February 3rd, 2010
12:40 pm
I have been on Marvin this season, deservedly so. And I dont think there is any defense for his play the last few games. Somebody needs to light a fire under his tail.
All I can say, is he is only 23, and this is the first year of his contract. Hopefully he can prove us detractors wrong (like Josh did)and step his game up. It would be nice if he could step it up this season, especially in the playoffs.
But I dont think the Hawks can trade him this year because of his BYC status. However, all options should be explored in the offseason.
I agree with Melvin. We are winning despite being deficient at both PG and SF. It would be nice if we could get an upgrade at one of those spots.
And Mo Evans is really a backup SG (he is undersized as a backup SF). Hopefully Chills will lower his asking price, so we can bring him back this offseason.
Another question we’ve discussed in the past, is who is our leader on the court? JJ is captain by default, but I dont think the Hawks have a leader on the court. I think thats another issue for the Hawks.
We need someone to be a coach/leader on the court. Bibby does it sometimes, but with the way his minutes have declined, we need somebody else to step up and assume that role.
How often do you see Kobe, LeBron, Chauncey, Wade, KG or Pierce, the list goes on, barking instructions to their teamates. Or getting on them, or motivating them out there?
Too often we stand around as a team while things are going wrong, or you’ll see us look to the sidelines.
darrell starks
February 3rd, 2010
12:55 pm
O BRIEN i agree with you but until the hawks can get a center and move horford 2 power ford they will not advance in the play offs.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!
darrell starks
February 3rd, 2010
12:57 pm
TRADING BIBBY, MARVIN, ZAZA, AND THROW IN THE RIGHT OF CHILL PLUS OUR FIRST FOR ELLIS, AND BIEDRINS, will make us better we get our point guard plus we get our center.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!
Astro Joe
February 3rd, 2010
1:29 pm
Melvin, you’re right, why should I expect more from a $58M player than a $38M one? My bad.
Daniel
February 3rd, 2010
1:46 pm
as far as the trade scenario’s go. You have to remember that Marvin is in his BYC year, which makes trading him that much more difficult.
terrell
February 3rd, 2010
2:10 pm
I still say we should go after Murphy and Dauntay Jones for Marvin and Zaza. We could even throw in a draft pick if they include Jeff Foster. They’re trying to move Murphy, so it wouldn’t hurt to ask. lol!
terrell
February 3rd, 2010
2:16 pm
I forgot about that Daniel. So lets do Bibby/Zaza,1st for Murphy/Earl Watson
Melvin
February 3rd, 2010
2:27 pm
Astro,
Because Josh makes more $$$ you are going to reduce Marvin responsiblity? Josh earns his money, can you say the same about Marvin? Do you think Marvin is a more desirable trade piece than Josh? Please, let’s not have Rod from CP post a list of SF’s that have equal (or better) stats and make less money.
J.J.M.
February 3rd, 2010
2:29 pm
trade marvin for camby
northcyde
February 3rd, 2010
2:35 pm
from dhawk:
(( vava74, we fell way behind in the 3rd because no one could convert offensively running plays for Horford, Smooth, Bibby, etc. Down 13 and about to get blowed out, JJ just took over to get us back in the game. Once we caught up with about 4 minutes to go, Woody wanted to give JJ a break (who played the entire 2nd half btw), by running plays for others. The lead started to increase again for OKC. Bottom line our frontcourt got outrebounded badly and offensively didn’t have it last night, even though there was no Duncan or D.Howard to stop them. ))
I’m glad you paid attention to that. A lot of Hawk fans don’t. They hate seeing JJ actually trying to play like a superstar by taking superstar type shots. They’d rather for him to pass to less skilled offensive players, than for him to shoot the ball when hot.
After going 2 – 6, JJ made 11 of his next 12 shots. He had made 8 in a row at one point. Why in the world would you go away from a player that is on fire like that? But some on this board hates to see the one-on-one play. They would rather for JJ to do like he did in the Orlando game, and pass to people who simply isn’t making shots or not converting post-ups, just for the sake of “ball movement”.
Last night, when JJ had it going, Smoove and Horford should have made it a PRIORITY to secure every rebound that they could, so that they could give JJ more opportunities to score the basketball. They are the primary rebounders on the team. They can’t afford to take nights off on the boards.
When Andre Miller went off a few nights ago for 52 points, you didn’t see Juwan Howard sulking, because he only got 3 shots. No . . he hit the boards,and got 12 rebounds.
Marvin led the team in defensive rebounds with 6. Smoove grabbed 5. Bibby grabbed 4. Horford grabbed 2. Switching defense or not, there’s no way that Bibby should have more defensive rebounds than Horford . . . EVER.
With the Clips coming in here tonight, there’s no way we can have a defensive rebounding effort like that tonight. Kaman and Camby are two of the best rebounding tandem of big men in the league. If we give this team a lot of 2nd chances, this game will be a lot closer than what it should be.
We’ll see which Clipper big man the board will be ranting and raving about in about 9 hours.
newkid
February 3rd, 2010
2:45 pm
With the trade deadline only a couple weeks off, would the Pistons do a deal for Marvin (5.6 byc), Zaza (4.75), and Collier (expiring), for Prince and Kwame? What about Marvin, Zaza, and the rights to Chill for Prince, Kwame, and a future 1st? If so, I hope Sund considers.
Daniel
February 3rd, 2010
2:48 pm
terrell- Murphy certainly brings a skill set to the bench that Joe Smith and Za Za don’t have, particularly the outside shot. But, with JC on the bench is Murphy what the bench needs? I thought we needed more inside toughness and rebounding. Earl Watson is a waste.
Astro Joe
February 3rd, 2010
2:49 pm
Melvin, when have I “reduced Marvin’s responsibility”? Because I want to see our our wannabe DPOY take on 6′9″ SFs instead of Joe for about 3-4 minutes? I’d love for Marvin to defend those guys for 48 minutes AND hit all of his open jumpers AND get me a big bowl of popcorn. I just don’t think that is realistic. So when he sits and instead of Joe doing the heavy lifting, I suggested that maybe Smith could take on that role for a few minutes. What’s the big deal about that?
Melvin
February 3rd, 2010
3:08 pm
Astro,
Let me see if I understand you correctly. You’re suggesting that while Marvin sits, Josh guard the hot hand and you want Joe to battle the big boys in the paint? How is that helping Joe, having to battle with guys who are a few inches taller and 40-50lbs heavier?
I got an idea, what if our starting SF can contribute enough to validate him being on the floor during crunchtime therefore allowing our All-Star SG to defend the opposing team guard. That way everyone can play straight up without the switch-a-roo on defense…
Daniel
February 3rd, 2010
3:21 pm
Melvin/Astro- Or we could get All Star level play at every position and the bench then we wouldn’t have to worry about any of this stuff. Maybe we could have a reincarnation of the original Dream Team, (I hope Chuck Daly wouldn’t run to many Iso Jordan plays and of course Teague would still need to get his 15 minutes a game, but…) We are not trading Marvin this year, HE IS A BYC PLAYER, next year we will not trade him because his contract is favorable to us, but to no one else who would deal us anything of value (to long of terms).
You know there is something to be said for continuity (in fact it may be these Hawks greatest strength) and sometimes when a team is a serious playoff team and one or two players are not at their perceived maximum, they sometimes can elevate their games given time.
terrell
February 3rd, 2010
3:22 pm
For everybody who keeps saying, “Teague aint ready”, if Ole stubborn butt would’ve given him some signifigant min. earlier in the season, he WOULD be ready.
Daniel
February 3rd, 2010
3:23 pm
I know patience and big picture thinking is not always the sexiest way to react, especially after a loss, but it may be the only reasonable way. Just a thought
Rod from College Park
February 3rd, 2010
3:28 pm
Melvin,
“I got an idea, what if our starting SF can contribute enough to validate him being on the floor during crunchtime therefore allowing our All-Star SG to defend the opposing team guard. That way everyone can play straight up without the switch-a-roo on defense…”
Astro won’t agree with that Melvin. He wants to keep making excuses for a 5th year player about how young he is or how he is leaning when he shoots or how hard it is to guard better players and score also. A bunch of hogwash. Josh and Marvin should never be compared. One guy (Josh)no matter how bad he plays, goes out and gives you everything he has on a nightly basis. The other (Marvin), you have to try to remember if he actually played or not. One player was drafted as a project, and one was drafted as a apparent superstar. I wonder which guy has worked harder?
terrell
February 3rd, 2010
3:29 pm
Daniel, Earl Watson is a waste? Bibby makes 3 times as much as Watson. So what does that make Bibby? A triple waste? How bout Bibby/Zaza/1st for Murphy/Dauntey Jones/Foster?
terrell
February 3rd, 2010
3:32 pm
I meant Bibby/Zaza/1st for Murphy/Dauntey Jones?
Rod from College Park
February 3rd, 2010
3:34 pm
Daniel,
“You know there is something to be said for continuity (in fact it may be these Hawks greatest strength) and sometimes when a team is a serious playoff team and one or two players are not at their perceived maximum, they sometimes can elevate their games given time.”
Take a look at Marvin’s career playoff averages. Please don’t hold your breath waiting. I actually like reading your responses sometimes. Marvin brings nothing in the way of Chemistry, Continuity or any of that other crap. He is waht you call a liability. Of course you know this is not a new or recent concept of mine, I have said it from the day we drated him. When he was making 2 or 3 million a year, I might understand it a little but 7.5 million, no way.
fudd21
February 3rd, 2010
3:35 pm
Darrell, I’m just curious but why would Golden State give up their best player (Ellis) and their only real big man (Biedrins) for an over the hill, slow, non-defense playing PG, a SF who has not lived up to his draft position and billing (not to mention it would stunt the growth of Randolph) and a role player in ZaZa. Especially when all 3 just signed new contracts and aren’t coming off the books anytime soon.
Oh and put me down in the group that wants NO parts of seeing Josh move to the 3. I think the team would take a step back and also put him in a position to not maximize his talents.
Rod from College Park
February 3rd, 2010
3:47 pm
Believe it or not I actually look for Marvin to have a great game tonight(by his standards 10 to 14 points max and 5 to 8 rebounds. He normally does that against the worse teams in the league. I still look for him to be outplayed by Thornton or Butler, as Thorton usually has great games against us, I wonder why?
BONE
February 3rd, 2010
3:52 pm
Man I remembaer what thornton did to us last time. I think the Hawks might come out flat again.
Astro Joe
February 3rd, 2010
3:56 pm
Melvin, why not play Zaza and Horford with Smith at the SF in those late game situations where we’re getting killed on the boards and a 6′10″ SF is shooting over our non-Marvin defenders? I don;t want to see Smith at SF for more than 3-4 minutes, but it gives that red-hot scorer a different look and it doesn’t require Joe to do the heavy lifting on both ends of the floor. Right now, we have a single defender with length to guard hot SFs. Short of going out and bringing in someone, what other options do we have other than playing Marvin the entire game? I’d be interested in hearing other ideas how to keep a decent-sized defender in front of a SF at all times… Mo? Mario? Joe… that is clearly plan B. I don’t know why Smith is not an option.
terrell
February 3rd, 2010
3:59 pm
Rod, Marvin wasn’t drafted to be a superstar. He wsn’t even a superstar in College. He was drafted on potential. Just hasn’t or will never reach it.
terrell
February 3rd, 2010
4:02 pm
Astro, “playing Marvin the entire game”? Hahahahaha!
Astro Joe
February 3rd, 2010
4:04 pm
Rod, you have one thing right… I don’t value “playing hard” nearly as much as I value “playing right”. Marvin has been disappointing this season, but unlike you, I qualify it as “this season”. I have never thought much of the notion of “at least he’s trying” for any player. Like you said, a 4th or 5th year player should ALWAYS be doing more than just “trying”. I’d be embarrassed if my boss went home and told his wife “well, at least Joe was trying today at work”. That should never be considered a reasonable evaluation for an employee. I’m very glad that we have moved beyond that point in the 6th NBA season for Mr. Smith.
O'Brien
February 3rd, 2010
4:10 pm
Rod,
I’ve been on Marvin too (mostly this season). But to be fair, he does provide chemistry to our starting lineup. The problem is, for $7.5 mil, we need more than chemistry from him. We need better defense, more rebounding, and he must knock down the open jumper more consistently.
However, just because there may be chemistry issues with inserting another SF into our starting lineup, that does not mean that the Hawks wouldn’t/couldn’t be a better team for it.
But it is a big risk none the less. And because the Hawks are 30-17, I dont think Sund will take that risk during the season.
Our best bet is to hope Marvin is able to turn it around this season, because we will need him to step up in the playoffs when we’re playing the SFs from the big 3 in the East (Pierce, LeBron, Pietrus and Barnes). And if he does turn it around this season, then his value would be higher to the Hawks, and to other teams.
And although he was drafted #2 and Josh was drafted #17, it was Josh who got the bigger contract, so obviously everybody realizes the value of Josh. And terrell is right.
Marvin was drafted based on potential, which means there is still a chance he will reach it.
terrell
February 3rd, 2010
4:21 pm
Obrien. There’s a better chance that Suh fallls to the Falcons. lol!
terrell
February 3rd, 2010
4:23 pm
Wonder if Solo could give us more than what Zaza gives us right now had he stayed? Hmmm??
terrell
February 3rd, 2010
4:28 pm
And Marvin even got a player option in the final year of his deal at 7.5 mill. Wonder if he’ll opt out? Haha. Great work Sund. Marvin must have one hell of an agent.
JeJe
February 3rd, 2010
4:29 pm
THIS TEAM HAS NO HEART
NO ONE TO COMMIT A HARD FOUL
NO VOCAL LEADER
JUST A BUNCH OF ATHLETIC PLAYERS
HOW THE HELL DO YOU WIN IN HOUSTON, DALLAS, AND BOSTON (TWICE) BUT CAN’T EVEN BEAT THE THUNDER. LOL
JeJe
February 3rd, 2010
4:35 pm
Lol @ Celtics struggling and having inner locker-room tension, yet they are ahead of us in the standings
terrell
February 3rd, 2010
4:41 pm
I hope Joe Smith is practicing that 15 ft jump shot right about now. I swear he hasn’t made one all year long. lol!
terrell
February 3rd, 2010
4:42 pm
I meant 5-10 ft jump shot. Haha.
Traceman
February 3rd, 2010
4:44 pm
Astro,
Didn’t you know that EVERYTHING is Marvin’s fault including our nation’s current economic situation? Just ask Rod, i’m sure he will explain it to you.
It is simply AMAZING how much focus Marvin gets regarding whether we win or lose when the reality is that we win when our All Star caliber players (JJ, Al, Smoove and Crawford) play like All Stars.
Marvin is a role player on this team. When he plays his role to the best of his ability, we are certainly a better team. Even if he starts playing his role as well as he played it last year, it would be great for the team. That said, the team’s success (or lack thereof) is FAR more likely to be determined by the play of our All Star guys than anything good or bad that Marvin (or Bibby or Zaza for that matter) does.
Marvin couldn’t guard Durant? Who can? The dude has scored at least 25 points in all but FIVE games this season. He averaged 32 ppg in January (15 games) while shooting 52% from the floor and an incredible FIFTY THREE PERCENT from the 3 pt line. He should have a lock on the WC player of the month honor.
At any rate, rhe reason we lost last night’s game wasn’t because we couldn’t get stops, it was because we couldn’t rebound the ball when we did. You MUST rebound to win on the road and we simply did not do that last night. People laying the blame on Marvin for last night’s loss need to look at the inability of our frontline to rebound the ball.
I LOVE Al (wear his jersey to most games) but he has been pretty terrible since the HOU game. He is certainly not playing like an All Star. I don’t know if it is the hand injury that is keeping him from being aggressive (I assume that it is) but his rebounding has been TERRIBLE. I saw him not even go for the ball on a couple of occasions last night and that is simply not like him. In the 4 games since the HOU game, he has been out rebounded by the opposing Center by the following numbers:
27-9 Duncan
12-8 Perkins
19-4 Howard
7-5 Krisitc (Kristic averages 5 rbg)
I know he is undersized but that simply cannot continue if we are going to be successful. He needs to be pulling down his normal 9-10 boards virtually every night or we won’t win consistently, particularly against good teams.
Melvin
February 3rd, 2010
4:51 pm
Astro,
If Marvin play was effect, he could play just a many mins as the opposing team superstar SF. But I know, that sound crazy b/c we like to play Joe at SF. Riddle me this, how come Joe didn’t play as much SF when Chills was on the team?
I know I’ve been harsh on Marvin lately but I just don’t see this potential that alot of others see in him (excluding Rod/Sam). He was drafted with Superstar potential but it looks more like he’s going to be a career role player at best (where did we see him do that before). But I would prefer he prove me wrong and I will gladly eat my words. However, I will definitely continue to cheer for him especially while he’s in a Hawks uniform…
Astro Joe
February 3rd, 2010
4:54 pm
And just for the record, Marvin makes around $5.7M this year. About $1M more than Zaza. And about half of what Tayshaun makes for the Pistons (when healthy last year, Prince averaged 10 points and 5 boards).
Rod from College Park
February 3rd, 2010
5:02 pm
O’brien,
I agree with your post. But the chemistry thing is a joke. What chemistry does he bring. On offense is it chemistry to stand in the corner and do nothing but rarley hit a wide open shot. On defense does he provide great chemistry by getting torched defensively by other small forwards. The chemistry is always better when he is not on the floor. Remember last year when he went down and Mo started, we played better without him. This year we get down in the first quarter a high percentage of the time with him on the floor, and then we have better chemistry when Jamal comes on the floor. Plug any small forward in that slot and the chemistry would be better. Marvin was drafted on the potential that he would be a great player, and I can tell you now so that you won’t continue to wait, that it ain’t happening. With all his flaws, Josh has worked harder and earned the right to make more money than Marvin. Marvin never earned anything. As much as everyone wants to say that you can’t blame him for his draft position, he was paid and rewarded because of his draft status, nothing else. Any other respectable coach who believes in guys competing for starting jobs, would have benched Marvin a long time ago. Do you think Marvin would start for Phil Jackson, Pop, even Larry Brown, I don’t. Chills was better, and was relegated to the bench, and I actually was not a big Chills fan, but he brought much more than Marvin did or does to this team. You can’t have it both ways.
Astro Joe
February 3rd, 2010
5:02 pm
Melvin, I don’t care why he was drafted. I don’t even know why that is still up for discussion. During his most recent evaluation by NBA experts, it was decided that he is worth an average of $7.5M over 5 years. It’s like discussing a house’s appraisal 5 years ago… it is irrelevant, only the most current appraisal matters. And the most current one has Marvin at $7.5… which suggests that he is supposed to be a good starting SF (below the standards of Tayshaun, Josh Howard and Luol Deng). And based on last year, he was a good starter. The guy who judged Marvin at the draft is gone… and he won’t be back. If his yardstick will always be the way BK measured him, then I can understand the anger. But based on the most recent measuring stick, he isn’t that far off. His draft slot is no more relevant than my 2005 job performance grade to the way I perform my job today.
Rod from College Park
February 3rd, 2010
5:13 pm
Astro Joe,
“And just for the record, Marvin makes around $5.7M this year. About $1M more than Zaza. And about half of what Tayshaun makes for the Pistons (when healthy last year, Prince averaged 10 points and 5 boards).”
Prince is a 3 or 4 team consensus 2nd team all defensive team player. I think that is voted on by the players. That means he is that master of something, and Master of none.
terrell
February 3rd, 2010
5:13 pm
Rod, hopefully we’ll draft a sf this year to compete with Marvin, or even push Marvin to the bench. Mo is as good as gone. He’s not a sf anyway. Anybody you have in mind? Because it’s going to be hard to trade him, unless we include him in a deal for someoene else or somethiing like that. Seriously.
bigdave
February 3rd, 2010
5:15 pm
Daniel…
that was my point Durant wasnt selling anything but he got a consistent whistle… its a lack of respect…
Melvin…
naw man… i agree with you and we saw a Joe doing a little of that last night. however he was getting bumped to the point of losing the ball. defenders no they can get away with more contact against Joe. i was only exaggerating for those who still feel the whistle wasnt a bit biased last night on the touch fouls. sure everyone complains about calls but, we’re talking a matter of extended possessions and turnovers, which are keys to wins.
Rod from CP…
maybe… maybe not… i mean i cant just say putting a guy thats been consistently roaming the perimeter and making him get in there and bang consistently for rebounds is advantageous. especially carrying the role he already answers to. but hey like i said, its worth a shot… in my opinion.
terrell
February 3rd, 2010
5:17 pm
Hoopshype has Marvin at 7.5 this year.
terrell
February 3rd, 2010
5:25 pm
Rod, how bout Damien Jones(Texas)? I hope Aminu(Wake) falls, but I kow he wont. NBA Draftnet has Atlanta taking Jerome Jordan(Tulsa) C 7′0 245lbs in rd.1
Big Ray
February 3rd, 2010
5:27 pm
Joe Johnson has the respect of many around the league and doesn’t give the refs flak, but they don’t respect him? Why?
I still don’t completely buy that theory.
Traceman
February 3rd, 2010
5:28 pm
Rod, did Marvin take your woman or something? Seriously. When is the last time you made a post that didn’t include a derogatory comment about him?
Yes, he has struggled this year but he is certainly not the only guy who has struggled after signing a new contract. Just look at this year. Andre Miller is struggling in POR (despite the 52 pt game). Richard Jefferson is struggling in SA. Hedo Turkogli is struggling in TOR. Trevor Ariza is struggling in HOU. Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva are struggling in DET. Brandon Bass (and to some degree Marcin Gortat) is struggling in ORL. Even Zaza and Bibby have struggled
this season.
A lot of it is psychological and I’m sure Marvin will get back on track just as Smoove did last year. You do remember how much Smoove struggled the first half of last season don’t you? He turned it around at the end of the season though and he is having a career year this year. Marvin is young and he can very well do the same thing. I know you would hate that though.
Rod are u stupid
February 3rd, 2010
5:29 pm
Damn, Rod, it seems like u dont even watch the games!…With your “star” Joe jacking up shot after shot, and Jamal jacking up shot after shot how can marvin ever live up to his draft status..Hell Hortford was the 3rd pick and he averages 14 a game right…so is he not living up to his status?….top 5 picks suppose to average over 20 right rod.u are insane dude..we are 3rd in the east and if we got another sf we would still be 3rd in the east..WE HAVE NO CENTER AND NO OFFENSE ROD..if we trade marvin and bring in another sf he will do one of the following…1. jack up shots and mess the chemistry up or stand in the corner and wacth joe dribble…
Astro Joe
February 3rd, 2010
5:31 pm
Joe doesn’t get calls because he doesn’t play the game to get calls. he doesn;t flop on defense and he doesn’t pump fake and lean in on offense. He plays the game “straight up”. I’m not saying that is good or bad… just the way I see it. I never see him playing any “tricks” like about 98% of other players (Bibby, for example, has a bag full of those crafty tricks). I guess I admire that philosophy but it clearly doesn;t pay off in terms of getting “star treatment”.
Rod, was Tayshaun there last year or did he (heaven forbid) have a disappointing season based on previous set standards?
Traceman
February 3rd, 2010
5:36 pm
Terrell,
Hoops hype is right. He’s at $7.5M this year but his salary goes DOWN to $6.7M next year. He will make an average of $7.5M over the 5 year life of his deal (excluding incentives).
Astro Joe
February 3rd, 2010
5:41 pm
terrell, I stand corrected… Marvin is making $7.5M. His BYC value (when using ESPN’s Trade Machine) is closer to $5.7M… that’s what I had in my head. But you’re right, he has a fairly flat salary over the 5 years.
Astro Joe
February 3rd, 2010
5:42 pm
Thanks, Traceman, you beat me to the punch.
terrell
February 3rd, 2010
5:55 pm
Thats a lot of $ for Marvin. I want his agent. lol!
vava74
February 3rd, 2010
6:01 pm
Without trading Marvin (bad move – never trade when stock is down), the best option would be to change the starting line up.
Again I insist: for the purpose of jolting things a bit, JJ at the SF spot and Mo at the SG is what makes more sense. JJ is better suited for the 3 spot than Mo and Mo better suited for the 2 spot (and more productive when given more minutes).
Traceman
February 3rd, 2010
6:16 pm
Vava,
I can’t see starting Mo no matter how much Marvin struggles. Yes, Marvin is struggling but the talent level is not even close. Mo’s BEST season (his last season in ORL) was not as productive as the season Marvin is having now and it pales in comparison to what Marvin did last year.
I agree that shaking things up a bit could help Marvin but starting Mo is not the way I would choose to go about it. I think Woody usually tries to get him some looks early in the game and that’s good but he tends to not call Marvin’s number much in the 2nd and 3rd quarters. I’d like to see Woody try to run more stuff for him in the middle of the game to keep him from drifting.
If that doesn’t work, I could see trying him off the bench but if I changed the starting lineup, I would try starting Jamaal at SG first rather than Mo. Honestly though, at 30-17, I don’t think I’d change the lineup. I would just keep Marvin on a short leash.
Ken Strickland
February 3rd, 2010
6:23 pm
All of you should know by now you’re just pissing in the wind if you think Woodson is going to make any changes or adjustments. So, suggestions like sending Bibby or Marvin to the bench, playing Teague more mins, extending his rotation or trading any of the players he insisted Sund resign. He’s going to finish the remainded of this season riding the backs of his MAGNIFICENT 7(starting 5 plus Zaza & Crawford), sink of swim.
He’s simply inflexible, has limited vision and doesn’t see the big picture, or make decisions that involve the future.
Rod from College Park
February 3rd, 2010
6:42 pm
Traceman,
“Rod, did Marvin take your woman or something? Seriously. When is the last time you made a post that didn’t include a derogatory comment about him?”
If he did why would that matter to you? He still would be an overpaid bum on the basketball court. It’s my opinion which has been proven this year, and I will continue to speak on it. Deal with it.
Whoevever,
“WE HAVE NO CENTER AND NO OFFENSE ROD”
We have an all star center on one of the top offenses in the east, so everything else you said is disqualified. Grow some nuts, be a man and stand up on your own two.
Simpdawg
February 3rd, 2010
6:53 pm
I said last summer that the Hawks should not have resigned Marvin Williams. They should have signed Josh Childress and David Andersen. This is the reasons why the Hawks will not make it to the Eastern Conference finals, hell they may not make it to the second round.
O'Brien
February 3rd, 2010
6:54 pm
There is nobody who the Hawks cna draft to compete with Marvin for his SF spot. Our draft pick will be in the late teens or early 20s.
If Chills couldnt take Marvin’s spot, no late first round draft pick will.
AJ,
Tayshaun Prince is not a good choice to compare Marvin to. Although Prince’s offensive numbers might be comparable, his defense is outstanding.
Prince was named to the 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008 NBA All defense second team.
If Marvin can play that kind of defense, I think people will cut him some slack where his offense is concerned.
Traceman
February 3rd, 2010
6:57 pm
It matters to me because I happen to think Marvin is a great guy who plays for my favorite team. I also think Marvin is a very talented young player who will get better. He represents the franchise well and I want to see him succeed, just as I want to see ALL of the Hawks succeed.
Your opinion has been proven? The only thing that has been proven is that you are obsessed with Marvin. That said, speak on brother, speak on!
Blast
February 3rd, 2010
7:04 pm
Game blog up!
terrell
February 3rd, 2010
7:15 pm
Bibby still strugglin
Simpdawg
February 3rd, 2010
7:19 pm
It’s amazing to me that a player like Marvin Williams, who has played in the league over four years, has not improved on his game. Take a player like Danny Granger. He was drafted the same year as Marvin. Marvin selected second overall and Granger selected seventeenth overall. They are both similar in size and play the same position, but over the years Grangers’ game has continue to improved and Marvin continue to struggle with his game. Please help me out somebody.
Simpdawg
February 3rd, 2010
7:31 pm
If the Hawks lose to the Clippers at home, I’m through with this team.
ROD SHUT UP
February 3rd, 2010
7:34 pm
Al Hortford is 6ft 8 ….At Fla he played PF..HE IS A POWER FORWARD..we will never beat Orlando with a 6 ft 8 center Rod from the clayton county side of college park..lift your head up for some air dude….