Hawks at Thunder, AKA Could You Help a Beat Writer Out?
The debate over Iso-Joe got me to thinking, and that’s always dangerous. Wouldn’t it be cool to have some numbers that shed some light on the effectiveness of Iso-Joe?
So it’s my hope going forward to track the results of fourth quarter Iso-Joe situations, defined as any play where it appears the primary aim is for J.J. to take his man one-on-one in a set halfcourt. The possible results are a made shot, missed shot with defensive rebound, missed shot with offensive rebound, turnover, assist, foul with no free throw or foul that leads to a free throw, all by either J.J. or a teammate (holla if there is a possible result I’m missing).
Some of you stat types might know a better resource than me, but the best fourth-quarter numbers I could find are these ‘08-’09 breakdowns at 82games.com. They are interesting but they don’t say anything about this season, nor do they break it down by play type or possessions. So I think tracking this myself is the best way to go about it.
But I need your help tracking Iso-Joes for two reasons. One is transparency–I wouldn’t want you to think I’m juking the stats. Another is expediency-sometimes I’ve got a lot of things going on during games and maybe I miss an Iso-Joe here or there. If I post my Iso-Joe numbers and lots of you have something different, we can work that out, agree on the numbers and move on.
My goal is to have a quantitative way to evaluate Iso-Joe by the end of the regular season (that’s 36 more games counting tonight). Maybe no meaningful conclusions come out of it. It could be that we end up with a weak sample size. The inability to compare Iso-Joe numbers going forward to games already played is a drawback. It also might be more illustrative to compare the results of Iso-Joe to the other play types the Hawks run in the fourth quarter but, to be honest, I think that might just be too ambitious and time-consuming for me on deadline. But if any of you want to give it a shot, I’m down.
At the very least the numbers we come up with can be part of the Iso-Joe conversation. Even if that amounts to pointing out all the ways they aren’t useful, that’s something, right? Because then we are talking about what else should be considered and doing our best to analyze Iso-Joe. Anyway, let me know if you think I’m onto something and if you are willing to help me out.
– I’m not on the road with the team, so I’ll be watching it on television like most of you. It’s not the best situation, but is what it is, you know? I’m still going to do the best postgame blog I can even though it’s better to get locker room perspectives.
– Talk amongst yourselves, Hawks fans.
MC
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
265 comments Add your comment
vava74
February 2nd, 2010
10:27 pm
very poor effort on the boards… it’s almost impossible to win a match when you are out rebounded by 10
BONE
February 2nd, 2010
10:28 pm
List of teams that OWN the Hawks:
Thunder
Spurs
Magic
Knicks
So sad
jean
February 2nd, 2010
10:28 pm
o brien lmao how can some1 help him out if he dont pass em the ball…he play every postion like its the end of the quarter jus holds the ball
Blast
February 2nd, 2010
10:29 pm
It’s sad when Joe scores 37 and Hawks still lose. Where is his sidekick? I’ve been critical of Joe hogging the ball, but he was awesome tonight.
Mac-Town'z Finest 478
February 2nd, 2010
10:30 pm
This year’s Hawks = for the most part last year’s hawks. Horrible coaching, Good enough talent and athleticism to be one of the better teams (in the east),and way too many holes to be considered elite.
We’re still garbage on the road, and probably will have to go to 7 games to beat Chicago, Charlotte , Miami or whatever mediocre/slightly above mediocre team with have to play in the first round.
Something has to change…Woodson’s coaching philosophy or personnel…..maybe both???
Big Ray
February 2nd, 2010
10:32 pm
Hawks lost this game by getting beat on the boards each time they played defense well enough to stop the opposing offense. During other instances, their defense broke down altogether, starting at the perimeter.
That’s right: STARTING AT THE PERIMETER.
Hate to see such a good game by Joe Johnson wasted. Al and Josh tried to help out at the end, but it was too late. Josh only got two shot attempts in the entire second half that I can recall. Al was stinking it up, thus the lack of attempts, but then poured in a few when given the chance. Nobody else was helping.
Marvin Williams? Who?
Mike Bibby gives you two sides. One is the side that can hit big shots despite being cold from the floor. The other side? Can’t match the opposing team’s point guard, much less stop him when it counts.
For the Thunder, Green and Westbrook stepped up to help Durant out. Where was Joe’s help? I guess ISO Jamal wasn’t on for the evening. I guess there are some things that even ISO Paradise can’t overcome.
In the end, Hawks lost this game by not playing enough defense when they needed to, and by getting beaten like a dirty rug on the glass. A pitiful effort in that department, and I’m disgusted by it.
Just Saying
February 2nd, 2010
10:34 pm
I hope the “baby” Thunder grow up more mature than our Hawks did. What a joke!
Big Ray
February 2nd, 2010
10:34 pm
But hey, at least the boo birds have something to crow about. So many fans are in love with the losses…
Wabe
February 2nd, 2010
10:34 pm
Hawks starters tonight:
PG Mike Bibby – 12 points, 6 assists, 4 rebounds
SG JJ – 37 points, 3 assists
SF Marvin Williams – 4 points, 6 boards
PF J.Smith – 15 points, 6 boards
C Al Horford – 14 points, 5 boards
Seriously, 4 points and 6 boards in 27 minutes?
WE NEED A 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
vava74
February 2nd, 2010
10:34 pm
and the refs where… well… the usual…
any good defense on Durant was rewarded with a foul call… any good defense to get a charging call was rewarded with the opposite (there was one called on Josh that… well, words are a waste)
Even the local OKC guys from foxsports west were saying that JJ was a four time all star but Durant being only a first time all star was already getting super star calls…
Big Ray
February 2nd, 2010
10:34 pm
It wasn’t our offense. We shot 48% from the field, had nearly 5 guys in double figures, with one of them nearly getting 40.
Defense didn’t come through, and we acted like they were bigger, stronger, and meaner than us. Two out of three just aren’t true against that team on any given night. The third one got us right in the arse. Sucky efforts on the boards. Absolutely sucky.
O'Brien
February 2nd, 2010
10:37 pm
jean,
Other guys had shot attempts, but they weren’t scoring enough. We needed every shot from Joe. Can’t fault him for anything tonight. 37 pt, 3 assists, plus he played better defense on Durant than Marvin.
Hawks gave up too many (17) offensive rebounds. Unacceptable. And once again, refs were horrible.
vava,
We need more from Marvin.
Scott Brooks for COY.
Big Ray
February 2nd, 2010
10:39 pm
Refs were bad, but even if the Thunder went to the line for the exact number of times we did, the score would still be tied at best. That’s right, we lost by 7, the exact number of free throw attempts MORE that the Thunder had, than we had.
I’m not buying the ref stuff. We could have won that game anyway. We sucked on defensive and rebounding effort. SUCKED
Astro Joe
February 2nd, 2010
10:39 pm
Hawks have to get more than 16 boards from our frontcourt aginst a team like this. I would have hoped for more than 16 from Josh and Al alone. OKC plays a very Eastern Conference style of ball. Really good defense with an emphasis on half-court sets. Of course, it helps when Durant can shoot over virtually every defender.
Good to see Bibby make some shots tonight. And whoever mentioned Zaza is dead on… dude is no where near as effective as he was last season. I don;t know if it is because Al is getting more minutes or what, but he blows many defensive rotations and fails to make open jumpers.
Have we had refs who were this bad in our favor recently? Joe should have broke his Jordans off on one or two of those refs tonight.
Sid
February 2nd, 2010
10:41 pm
We had about 80 possessions tonight and I would say Joe dominated the ball on over 40 of those possessions. There was no room for anyone else to step up not when you are bringing the ball up and shooting or the PG brings it up hands it to you with 17 seconds on the clock and you hold the ball for 15 seconds looking to shoot.
But the key to this game is the same thing that happened in the majority of our losses . The starters come out to start the game or the 3rd and dont match the intensity of the opposing teams.
When selfolosha played handball on that one possession in the 3rd Woody should have called timeout and sat the entire starting 5 down.This lack of effort from the starters is getting old
kwooden1
February 2nd, 2010
10:45 pm
I only listened to the game on the radio, but this was probably the most frustrating game I’ve heard all year!! I watched the last game against OKC and stated that OKC plays the game the way it is supposed to be played. I was hoping that the HAWKS learned something from that game and really started to understand how they have to play the game. The HAWKS must get stops and get out and run. This game they didn’t get stops and when they did, they didn’t consistently get the rebounds! Westbrook had more rebounds than anyone on the HAWKS!! ANYONE!!! Again I didn’t see the game so I really can’t put the blame on anyone particular, but I know as a team they didn’t take care of their defensive boards. 16 assists just doesn’t cut it!! I think John Stockton averaged that for his career!! Woody’s lack of an offensive comes into play again, but I’ve come to the realization that it’s never coming. This team has to get stops and get out and RUN!! They didn’t do it enough this game and we can all see the results. They have to get this through their heads! Play good defensive, rebound the ball, push the ball and find the open man!!!
GO HAWKS!!!
dub366
February 2nd, 2010
10:48 pm
name Larry Drew the head coach. Need to fire WOODY
Astro Joe
February 2nd, 2010
10:50 pm
Some of you didn’t notice that Joe didn’t shoot the ball in the first 3-4 possessions of the 4th quarter. Smith scored in thepost, I think Horford was stripped in the post and I think Crawford may have taken a shot. But other than Smith (and later Bibby), Joe was the only consistent scoring threat tonight. At one point, Joe was 13-17. When a guy is 13-17, he is SUPPOSED TO DOMINATE THE BALL. To ask someone else to shoot is to ignore the guy who is on fire. That’s dumb.
Westbrook shot horribly but came up with 9 boards and 9 assists.
I like that Thunder team. They drafted well and are well coached. And the players have bought into a defense-first philosophy. A very nice young team. And where do we get a Serge Ibaka? I want one of those.
kwooden1
February 2nd, 2010
10:50 pm
I was wrong Stockton, averaged 10.5! more than half what our team had tonight.
UGA
February 2nd, 2010
10:50 pm
Clips, Bulls, Wizards, Grizzlies, Miami— I think we finish 4-1 or 3-2 right here before the break. We lose to Memphis, the game in question will be at Washington.
I really like Marvin, but I’m starting to have some doubts now. Plus, if we’re not going to play him then do we need to look at a trade to upgrade the SF spot……….
kwooden1
February 2nd, 2010
10:52 pm
Astro I would take Ibaka over Zaza any day. I like Zaza, but Ibaka is more athletic and a better enforcer in the paint.
Astro Joe
February 2nd, 2010
10:53 pm
kwooden, when they tried toplay good defense, Durant would either shoot over them or the refs would blow the whistle. The game was lost on the glass (IMO). Plain and simple. We’d play good defense and then give up an easy offensive rebound. Hard to win on the road against a quality opponent when you can’t secure the ball and run the fast break. I thought the defense was above average tonight… we just couldn’t collect the missed shots. And some guy name Serge gave them 8/4/2 in 15 minutes. Imagine 8 points, 4 boards and 2 blocks in 15 minutes from one of our back-up big men. HA!
cp
February 2nd, 2010
10:54 pm
Once again we got killed on the boards but hey at least we signed Mario for the rest of the season. He was clearly a piece we had been missing. SMH whatever…. Marvin with another invisible man game. We need to upgrade the sf position. Its clear that Marvin is just not that guy. Like I said yesterday, if he isn’t going to score he could at least crash the glass and play good d but he isn’t even doing that. The only thing he has been good at this year is wrapping all those towels around his neck when he is sitting on the bench.
Wabe
February 2nd, 2010
10:54 pm
Co-sign on Serge Ibaka AstroJoe.
Astro Joe
February 2nd, 2010
10:56 pm
Ibaka is built like Solo, except it took Solo 3 games to produce 8/4/2… because he averaged around 6 fouls per 5 minutes of court time.
BTW, how’s he doing in Indy? Ouch, 35 total minutes in his last 10 games. Whew, at least he’s getting more PT than Acie.
Ken Strickland
February 2nd, 2010
10:57 pm
Although there are some Hawk fans who will remain in denial on this issue, but the Hawks have serious coaching issues, PG issues, which is directly related to and created by the coaching issues, and serious OFF issues, which is the direct result of our HC not giving a damn about the OFF. WE’VE COMPLETELY STOPPED RUNNING AND HAVE BECOME ALMOST TOTALLY DEPENDENT ON JUMPSHOOTING AND ISO JOE. IN OTHER WORDS, WE’RE BACK TO PLAYING WOODY BALL. We have what can be best described as a total disaster for a halfcourt OFF.
They were able to wear us down because we played only 7 players more than 8 mins while they played 9 players more than 11mins. However, many WOODY LOVERS will still use the old tried and true to defend him. They will say, WE STILL HAVE 30 WINS AND ONLY 17 LOSSES, and counting. They will continue to bury their collective heads in the sand, pretend everything is fine, while ignoring the fact we’ve lost 11 of our last 22gms, 3 or our last 4, fallen to 2nd place in our division and 4th place in the Eastern conference behind Boston.
BOTTOMLINE, WE’RE GETTING WORSE AS THE SEASON PROGRESSES WHILE MOST OF THE OTHER TEAMS WE’RE COMPETING WITH IN THE EAST ARE GETTING BETTER.
Wabe
February 2nd, 2010
10:57 pm
And no doubt that this game was lost on the glass. Coming down the stretch, we had gotten a couple of stops but we let Russell Westbrook come down and snag offensive boards on back to back possessions. Those 2 boards alone killed the Hawks chances to pull this one out.
Ken Strickland
February 2nd, 2010
11:03 pm
We got beaten on the OFF boards because of Woody’s beloved switching DEF. Far too often our best rebounders ended up on the perimeter trying to defend their PG’s and SG’s, which left our guards to defend and try to out rebound their Bigs. DUMB ASS COACHING.
Wabe
February 2nd, 2010
11:06 pm
I wouldn’t say that the C’s are getting better Ken Strickland. I wouldn’t say the Magic are getting much better either.
I think you’re seeing the same Hawks team that you’ve seen from day 1. The lone difference is now, teams are aware of Hawks weaknesses and exploiting them. Our lack of a prescence at the 3 is disturbing. Our lack of a PG who can command the offense really gets us into trouble in some games. I’ll give you that on some nights, the Hawks just plain don’t show up. But, on most nights, you’ll see the Hawks play Hawks ball – but it’s just an ineffective style of play. Teams like the Magic or the Spurs have had success stopping what the Hawks do because they’ve made it difficult for the Hawks primary offensive options to get it going and other guys don’t step up. Defensively, we’ve struggled to stop opposing PG’s, and on some nights, switching has really gotten us into trouble. I think that this team can get better as we move later into the season, but we’ve got to get some guys up to speed. As some of you have mentioned, Zaza hasn’t given us the production we saw out of him in previous years. Hopefully, he can pick it up as the season progresses. I also think it’s vital to get JT0 up to speed and into the rotation consistently. We’ve got to maximize the talent that we have, and that means developing young talent throughout the season so that they can play a meaningful role as we come down the stretch.
Overall, the Hawks are 30-17. Back to back losses suck, but all you can do is bounce back strong tomorrow night against the Clippers. We’re still right in the thick of things in terms of Eastern Conference standings, but what are this teams goals? I’d say we’re a solid peice away from true contention, but is this team willing to strive for greatness, or will they settle for good enough?
Astro Joe
February 2nd, 2010
11:07 pm
Strickland, you’re right. We should fire Woody now and just blow-off the rest of this season. Start the rebuilding tomorrow against the Clippers. Bench Bibby and start Teague. Who cares if we don’t win more than another 15 games this season. Let’s start the rebuilding process NOW. Don’t wait another day.
Sid
February 2nd, 2010
11:08 pm
Astro Joe – that philosophy is exactly why we will be out in the first rd .
Being hot is not about shooting every time you touch it its about knowing when to pass and making the right decisions
Joe started out the 4th quarter turning the ball over after finishing the last three and half of the third quarter taking all the shots excepts ONE.
WE WERE LOSING despite all of that . What started the comeback ? It was Crawford finding Zaza
and Bibby and then we got it to within 4 and then it was back to Joe doing his thing and then we tied the game when Joe gave up the ball early in the shot clock to Bibby.
Crawford and Joe had the same percentage before Joe came back in in the second quarter . 3-5 Joe had 6 points Crawford had 7 points ….. he got 3 more shots the entire game
Throughout this game when we gave someone else a chance to score by moving the ball we either got a great shot and missed or scored a basket with an assist.
Wabe
February 2nd, 2010
11:08 pm
And when I said that our style of play is ineffective, I meant that it’s ineffective against certain teams (i.e. Magic/Spurs).
Astro Joe
February 2nd, 2010
11:09 pm
Of course, let’s ignore that if the switching D left our bigs on their PG… and their PG had 5 offensive boards, that the coach is to blame. Let’s ignore that piece of data.
Start the rebuilding NOW. This season is a horrific failure. We’re an NBA embarrassment. Don’t wait another day. Rebuild. NOWWWWWWWWWWW!
Astro Joe
February 2nd, 2010
11:13 pm
Sid, in a perfect world, a player would only score 30+ points if he were assisted often. But that is not the way it always works. If a team/coach goes away from what is working, how is that a good decision? Our failure at the end of the game was more about making stops and less about scoring the ball. 99 points on the road should be more than enough to bring home a win… if you’re handling your business on the glass.
kwooden1
February 2nd, 2010
11:17 pm
Astro you’re over reacting after one poor performance. Remember they only lost by 7 and had several chances to take the lead in the 4th. This team can still be special, but they have to decide to play their game. All 5 guys must rebound the ball!! They won’t be able to run on everyone, but they have to realize they’re not running for fast-break points, they’re running for secondary break points. I believe they can do that against any team, but they have to believe it will work!
rms
February 2nd, 2010
11:19 pm
you’re being sarcastic Astro, right???
Astro Joe
February 2nd, 2010
11:19 pm
Comeon Strickland, say it with me…
RE-BUILD. START NOW! RE-BUILD! START NOW (I can’t hear you). RE-BUILD! START NOW!
iREPATL
February 2nd, 2010
11:22 pm
astro, u buggin, we only need a 5 @ 3 . rebuild my ass
Astro Joe
February 2nd, 2010
11:24 pm
kwooden, I’m just busting Strickland’s chops. Like I have said before, the pace to win around 55 games means that the Hawks will lose around 3 of every 10 games. And some fans just act insane when we actually lose those 3 games. The Thunder are a quality team playing in front of great fans. And they have a true superstar. We’ve lost 2 of the last 3… now it’s time to string together a streak of 5-6 games. It’s all good.
Najeh Davenpoop
February 2nd, 2010
11:25 pm
If the Hawks keep rebounding the way they are now, either the Clippers or Grizzlies will beat them, if not both.
Astro Joe
February 2nd, 2010
11:25 pm
rms, me sarcastic? I can barely spell the word.
Geemack
February 2nd, 2010
11:30 pm
Ken
Are you suggesting we fire Woody, and start fresh.
jj
February 2nd, 2010
11:33 pm
Ken,you talking to the wind.If Sund and the Boyzs are satisfied or just blind to reality,it don’t matter that this Team is on a downturn.It’s sad because a season that has so much posibility,will more than likely end in dissapointment.I wish Sund had the balls or authority to make the CHANGE that is required.
Geemack
February 2nd, 2010
11:34 pm
On this blog Woody can’t win for losing.
Astro Joe
February 2nd, 2010
11:38 pm
GeeMack, on this blog, Woody can’t win when winning.
shannon
February 2nd, 2010
11:45 pm
I hope the Hawks have Marvin Williams on the trading block.. He is the teams weak link
Geemack
February 2nd, 2010
11:47 pm
Astro
You right about that.
Geemack
February 2nd, 2010
11:50 pm
shannon
On this blog you blame Woody for everything. That’s the only logic for losing a game around here….blame Woody.
Rod from College Park
February 2nd, 2010
11:53 pm
Wabe,
“JJ did his thing. I’d say Smoove showed up tonight as well. Bibby and Al had their moments. Whose the lone starter that essentially gave the Hawks nothing again tonight both from an offensive and defensive perspective?”
Would the answer be MARVIN WILLIAMS? Over our last 3 games against playoff caliber teams he has scored 4points, 7 points and 4 points. No offensive production while allowing Pierce to go for 35 and Durant to go for 33 both over their season averages. But the very knowledgeable ASTRO JOE and TRACEMAN will tell me I am crazy for saying Marvin is not a good defender. OK GUYS.
Astro Joe
“Rod, I think it is clear that you are the only one (or close to it) who thinks that Marvin is “not even an average defender at his position”.
Really!!!! Check the responses above.
Traceman,
“As for Marvin’s D, he does a good job. He has not been quite as good this year as he was last year but he has still been solid.”
He has huh. LOL. You guys are some comedians.
DecDawg
February 2nd, 2010
11:55 pm
Well…the Bulls had to get rid of Collins to get Phil Jackson and go to the next level. It’s not like they were losing with Collins but they understood someone else was needed to push that team to a championship level.
Maybe Woody is our Collins…