The Aftermath . . .
Something big happened for the Hawks last night.
No, not that. Yeah, Jamal Crawford’s dagger was exciting, and it was just rewards for the Hawks after they kept competing hard (if not always smart) after the game appeared lost. But this being the NBA, the buzz from a victory like this lasts for 10 minutes and then it’s on to the next one. For the Hawks, that’s Oklahoma City on Monday.
More important for the big picture, a couple hours after Crawford’s game-winner the Magic got blown out at Portland for its sixth defeat in eight games. The Hawks, winners of five of their last six, moved a half game ahead in the Southeast and are No. 3 in the East. The Magic is shook, with forward Matt Barnes wondering out loud to the Orlando Sentinel about the team’s resolve after it failed to compete against the Brandon Roy-less Blazers:
“It’s like we are going through the motions. Just because you went to the Finals last year, you can’t go out on the floor and expect teams to lay down. We got no heart. You can only make so many excuses. Everybody has to come and play hard, not just one or two guys. I’ve played on teams that used to love to punk the good teams in the league. We loved to do that.”
So now you see the Hawks have three home games next week against Oklahoma City (21-18), Sacramento (15-23) and Charlotte (18-19). The Magic, meanwhile, is at the Lakers on Monday before returning home to face Indiana (14-25) and Sacramento and heading back out to Charlotte.
All of that means the next two weeks are a chance for the Hawks to show they intend on staying on top of the division and perhaps gain some ground on the Celtics before KG comes back. You figure the Hawks need to go ahead and win these next three because elite teams dominate at home. And also because after that comes a brutal week of at Houston and San Antonio, and a back-to-back of Boston at home and at Orlando.
You can’t put any of these next three down as Ws for the Hawks–Oklahoma City in particular is one of those teams that make you play even if you are better, and the Hawks sometimes doesn’t don’t seem interested in that kind of game. Time for the Hawks to put it down and supplant Orlando for good in the East’s top three.
– Over at Peachtree Hoops, hawksdawgs laments Joe Johnson’s shot selection and the team’s switching D in the fourth quarter. On the latter point, Woody mentioned the other day that he likes to start a wing on the opposing point so that when the switch on the pick-and-roll happens, the Hawks don’t end up with a small on the post guy.
I understand that thinking, but this was a game where instead of that we saw Al Horford keep ending up guarding Steve Nash straight up off the pick-and-roll. I think I’d rather take my chances with a mismatch against Channing Frye or Robin Lopez in the post (where at least there’s a chance of help) rather than have Nash operate in the open floor against Horford.
– Some of you wanted to know why Jeff Teague got the DNP-CD. I missed Woody’s postgame due to deadline and so I didn’t get to ask. Rather than speculate on Woody’s reasoning, we’ll just have to wait until tomorrow.
– Anybody else see that “In the Suns’ Face” headline on the ajc.com Hawks front and immediately think of this?
– Finally, thanks to all for the warm welcome. Keep coming back and I’ll keep giving you something. Also, follow me on Twitter and become a fan of AJC Hawks on Facebook.
MC
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110 comments Add your comment
darrell starks
January 16th, 2010
9:32 pm
WHERE IS KEN? BUT ANY WAY NICE WIN HAWKS.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
January 16th, 2010
9:34 pm
JAMAL IS A BEAST.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!
O'Brien
January 16th, 2010
9:35 pm
Sid,
I am okay with Bibby getting the minutes in the 4th quarter and down the stretch. But Teague can get minutes early in the game.
If Bibby gets hurt, and Woody starts Crawford, then who comes in off the bench to give us a spark?
And I am okay with Teague getting only 10-12 minutes per game. What I dont like is that he gets a lot of DNPCD. I think he should get minutes every game.
I agree that Bibby stretches the floor, but does he really stretch the floor if he is shooting 2-8? And even when he stretches the floor on offense, why do you think so many PG (Rose, the Hornets backup PGs, Nate Robinson) have career nights against Bibby?
Because his defense sucks, and his bad defense leads to our bigs guarding guards away from the basket, which takes our bigs away from the paint where we need them. Or our bigs pick up fouls trying to guard Bibby’s man.
clarkekent
January 16th, 2010
9:47 pm
you play talent not sit it… minutes to a player are like water to a flower.. it allows them to blossom. i understand the stretching the floor peice but if this team is to win on defense then practice what you preach. teague is already a better defender than bibby. and he can stay in front of the more quicker guards in the league. when the hawks play guards that drive to the basket we get burned…teams with two slashing guards kill the hawks because bibby can’t hide..(cle. clt. hou. lac. nyk. orl. sat.). again i’m not saying start teague just give him more mins. And some minutes with the other starters. not to mention joe is still playing 40mins a game. it would be over 40 if it was’t for a few blowouts (some good /some bad).
ricknole
January 16th, 2010
9:55 pm
I agree Teague needs to see the floor at least 10-12 min per game. However, there is no way you let a rookie on the floor with the game on the line. IF Woody(and i am not a big supporter of his) put Teague in the game last night and he had a costly turnover, you same people would be calling for his head.
Sautee
January 16th, 2010
10:00 pm
Here’s a quote from Woody a few weeks ago when Teague got some consistent burn:
(about Jeff Teague) Said Woodson, “He’s been playing pretty good for us. A lot of that is he’s getting a few minutes and he’s got some confidence going. That’s what it’s all about.”
If that’s what it’s all about, then isn’t the opposite true as well? When you get inconsistent minutes, you are less confident (especially as a rookie).
HOF Coach Popovich has figured this out. I wish Woody would. We need some help at PG.
RA
January 16th, 2010
10:13 pm
I think that last night was important from the standpoint that the Hawks need to understand that they have to keep fighting even on nights when they just don’t have it. Now, there are going to be some nights when everything comes easily, like those games against Toronto and that bloodbath against the Nets. But on the nights when they’re missing something, like that game against Orlando and last night, they have to compete and put themselves in a position to win in the end. Now, I’ll be honest, coming out of that Orlando game, I wondered aloud if they were the type of team that could win on nights when everything was going. They gave the answer last night, yes.
O'Brien
January 16th, 2010
10:13 pm
ricknole,
Most of us bloggers are NOT saying Teague that should be in the game down the stretch. All I’m saying is that he deserves 10-12 minutes every game (even if its all in the first 3 quarters).
When Woody had Royel Ivey, Ivey would start the game for the Hawks, and get most of his minutes early. But he would get very few minutes late. And that’s okay. Because he was getting consistent minutes almost every game.
Teague just needs 10-12 minutes every game, even if he doesnt play in the 4th quarter.
cp
January 16th, 2010
10:18 pm
You don’t let him play through his mistakes? Then how is he to get better? Like I said you don’t do it at the expense of wins but I’m truly not seeing how he would cost us games. Bibby stretches the floor but gives up twice as much on the defensive end. The one thing Bibby does that I love is take care of the ball. Like O’Brien said, if Bibby is on one of his normal 2-9 nights and getting thrashed on defense then there is no reason Teauge should not come in. If someone gets hurt during a crucial part of the season and he has to play but isn’t prepared then I wonder what will be said then. And Sautee great post. Pop is not even known as a coach who loves the young guys but he seems to find them consistent minutes. He has no problem with sitting down a guy who isn’t producing regardless if he is a vet or not. They say pg is the hardest position to learn and it has to be even harder when you have to look over your shoulder wondering if you are going to get yanked after one mistake or when you do play well you don’t see the court again the next few games. That type of coaching can kill a young guys confidence. You get pulled for a mistake and don’t get rewarded for good play. And once again Bibby is looking older and slower out there I don’t know what he will have come playoff time but if how he is playing now is any indication then he wont give us much.
RA
January 16th, 2010
10:19 pm
And Mr. Cunningham,
As you’ve probably pieced together, we’re a fairly lively bunch, and there are a few Johnny Come Lately’s, but most of us were here for the LEAN years and most of us are true Hawks fans. We don’t expect a bunch of Rah Rah bull. If they play bably, they deserve whatever you, Bradley, or any other objective journalist has to say about them. In short Mr. Cunningham, just tell the truth as you see it to be, we’ll respect that, even if we don’t always agree. But for what it’s worth, I think you’ll have a much easier road than your predecessors. One thing’s for sure, you’re going to be following a much better team:)
Sid
January 16th, 2010
10:21 pm
@Sautee – Pop does that because the Spurs are always injured and MANU even when healthy cannot play the point . If Manu could play the point those guys wouldnt have those minutes so its an entirely different situation. Crawford changes EVERYTHING.
@ Obrien if Crawford has the start we do lose our primary spark but wouldnt it be a opportunity for teague to become that spark ?
Teague is on pace for 10 dnp cd this season thats not a high number at all for a rookie whose team has backourt depth and has not had any injuries .
Bibby could miss all ten shots in a game and in the 4th they would not double off him but they most certainly would a rookie who they know has no shot .
His defense sucks but because Marvin hasnt been able to shoot consistently either so Woody chooses to go with the vet over the rookie .
@Clarkekent
Woody has played Teague but there is also talent ahead of Teague . Teague against smallish guards yes but teague against the larger guards wont get to play much . But he also has to earn that trust . His play against the Wizards and Boykins was a nice start. I expect him to get decent minutes against DJ Augustin of the Bobcats next week but I wouldnt expect to see him against Westbrook on Monday against Maynor the backup yes but not Westbrook .
I wouldnt have played him against Nash and that backup has been a euro pro for years so I wouldnt play him then either. . Sac has Evans and Udrih both have nice size so when we are talking matchups right now Teague puts us in a tough spot .
Joe is averaging 37 ppg which is great and blowouts are how all the heavy minute stars get there minutes down. Bibby has averaged 25 mpg this month so where are the minutes for Teague because Crawford is the backup point and thats his most dangerous position especially against the better teams .
Also when people say play him no matter what I have a real problem with that because we are within 3 games or so of the best record in the conference. We just cant afford to say its okay if you come in and take a couple of bad shots a few fouls and turnovers . Every game is gonna be important and one game could cost us homecourt in the second rd . So its funny to me because everyone speaks as though Teague has not played poorly at times when he has come in as well.
There are so many factors that go into playing Teague(or not) and all should be taken into account.
Sautee
January 16th, 2010
10:29 pm
Sid,
So do you disagree with Woodson when he says:
“He’s been playing pretty good for us. A lot of that is he’s getting a few minutes and he’s got some confidence going. That’s what it’s all about.”
Woody says that time equals confidence. Do you disagree?
Sautee
January 16th, 2010
10:30 pm
And Sid,
What does Manu have to do with Blair getting 17 / gm.?
O'Brien
January 16th, 2010
10:33 pm
Sid,
So its not okay for Teague to get consistent minutes, but yet you think he could become a spark off the bench if somebody gets hurt?
Isn’t that contradictory?
mykhalc
January 16th, 2010
10:40 pm
Marvin can’t send ANYONE to the bench…PERIOD!!! Bibby on his worst nite still commands more respect from a defense than MW. JJ, JC and MB will always be the go-to combo down the stretch IMHO. at best MW brings more reboundin’ at the 3 spot than Joe but that’s it. in fact MO should get more burn than MW at this point. but WOODSON has never been known to do the smart thing.
Sautee
January 16th, 2010
10:41 pm
Sid,
Sorry man, I’m not picking on your post. I just keep finding things to question.
You said this:
“Every game is gonna be important and one game could cost us homecourt in the second rd .”
Quite true, but Popovich will rest HOF TD on back to backs because he KNOWS that the playoffs are where Timmy will be needed. The West is MUCH more competitive than the East, but it doesn’t stop HIM from giving young players minutes. It’s just a different (and obviously more confident) approach.
I can’t speak for O’Brien and others who say he needs consistent minutes, but I’d say throw him in there and IF he’s F’n up pull him. Of COURSE he’s played poorly at times. All rookies do. All veterans do too at times.
As I mentioned, I’m VERY concerned that Bibby has lost a step and a half just lately. We MUST deal with his decline. I’m not over the top about Teague, but without making a deal, he’s our PLAN B for the near future. So give him some regular minutes and get his confidence up.
Astro Joe
January 16th, 2010
10:41 pm
What’s wrong qith making a young guy earn it? Why must everything come so easy? What right does he have to playing time… some good pre-season performances? Didn’t Dion Glover have good pre-season performances?
Horford earned it for the same coach. Heck, Salim earned it his first two seasons as a 2nd rounder. Diaw earned playing time and he and Woody straight hated each other. Why is it so hard to believe that maybe Teague simply hasn’t earned consistent time yet? Are you thinking that Woody gets to abuse his rookie without consequence? Do you think that Sund (or his assistant GM) aren’t checking in on practice as part of their evaluation of the coach? Or maybe you’re thinking that Sund won’t notice.
Teague appears to be the 4th string PG, if Bibby goes down, Woody will give more minutes to PGs #2 and #3. Should Woody play RandMo more in case Josh Smith gets hurt? Isn’t RandMo the 4th string PF?
What did Ray Allen say? Woody and Jim Todd pushed him hard as a rookie. I’d much rather see Teague be pushed hard than be on cruise control. If this team were paper-thin on guys who could run the offense, it would be one thing… but we’re not.
Sautee, you’ve watched George Hill play… doesn’t it appear that he is beiog groomed to replace Mike Finley or Roger Mason? He’s a gunner/slasher off the bench. It doesn’t look like he is being groomed to be anoffensive general, just one of the guys firing from the left flank. Don’t we want more from Teague? Blair (whom I love and lobbied for pre-draft) is playing a specific niche role that fits him to a tee… rebound. If he is getting extra PT, it may have more to do with saving Duncan and less to do with “player development”. (Didn’t Duncan skip games last year? Is that happening again?) And by the way, I’d bet a very large sum of money that Pop makes his rookies earn PT and isn’t handing it out like candy cane at Christmas. If Blair and Hill are getting time, it is either a function of roster attrition or they earned it (heaven forbid).
Denver and Ty Lawson… let’s see, they could ask JR Smith to play some PG (mistake), Aaron A. (mistake) or they could hold a competition between Lawson and Anthony “Don’t Confuse Me with Jacque Vaughan” Carter and see who wins.
4th seeds don’t have to give away playing time, they have the luxury of making players earn it. And there is nothing wrong with that.
Sautee
January 16th, 2010
10:56 pm
AJ,
“What’s wrong qith making a young guy earn it? Why must everything come so easy?”
Don’t misunderstand me. If I hadn’t seen such a backward slide in Bibby’s quicks, I’d be fine having Teague “earn it”. But I’m extremely concerned having watched Bibby all these years, and now sliding backwards at (for me, anyway) an alarming rate. As I said, I’m NOT necessarily sold on Teague, but in this case I think we need to be prepared to ease Mike out (God I hated typing that), and unless we make a deal, then Teague is the most likely candidate.
I recognize that Craw is the de facto backup PG, but I remain unconvinced that we’re better off using him that way.
And why did Woody see fit to give Teague more consistent minutes earlier in the season? Had he “earned it” then?
Astro Joe
January 16th, 2010
11:15 pm
Sautee, by the way, in Farmar’s rookie season, the Lakers went 42-40 and their starting PG was… Smush Parker. ‘Nuff said on that one.
Maybe Woody “gave it” to Teague and he lost it. Or, maybe he wanted to see how Teague and Crawford worked together and didn’t like what he saw. I know that when I watched them early, I thought that they were a bad pairing. My sense is that they both need the ball to be effective. My comment during those days was that Teague would likely be better off with Mo Evans in the backcourt with him.
It appears that the team is still gelling… Crawford has just recently established himself as the team’s closer (I love the nickname “The Difference” but “Rivera” wouldn’t be bad either… as in HOF-to-be closer Mariano Rivera), Collins showed value against Shaq and Mario has returned. Teague may find a role yet… but I’m not overly concerned. We’re in the mix for the 3/4 slot and I just don’t think that we could realistically ask for more than that.
Oh and I think (I could be wrong on this) that Acie Law received more PT under Woody in his first 35 or so games last season than he has in his first 35 or so games this season.
Samuel
January 16th, 2010
11:37 pm
Yea Joe,
You know we’re doing pretty good when all we can find to hate on “My Boy” Woody is why our third string PG is not getting enough minutes. We’re tied for the 4th best record in the “freekin” NBA heading into the AllStar break and the topic of our conversation is Jeff “freekin” Teague. Who woulda thunk it?
People here also can’t seem to realize that the switching defense is what makes us unique. No other team can do it and get away with it. I watched Horford put “clamps” on Nash in crunch time. What other center in the league can do that?
Also, if you notice, while Bibby may be slow, he’s very strong for his size in his lower body. Many times bigs think they can post him easily but many times they are not able to move him. Whatever Woody’s doing. It’s working.
Woody=COY
Big Ray
January 17th, 2010
12:03 am
This is always a somewhat amusing conversation.
We should call it “A comedy of exaggerations”
Some think and act like every move or decision Woody makes is the right one, no matter what. Others think that NOTHING he does is right.
Some want to give Woody credit for everything that happens, every play, every shot, etc. Right. Well since everything that works is to his credit, then he can be blamed for all of the missed shots, missed defensive rotations, etc. Right?
Oh, and I’m sure he planned to have Horford guard Nash in the waning minutes of the 4th quarter. Yep, planned it all from the very beginning. Which of course, does NOT explain THIS:
“On the latter point, Woody mentioned the other day that he likes to start a wing on the opposing point so that when the switch on the pick-and-roll happens, the Hawks don’t end up with a small on the post guy.”
Really? So what happens when a big ends up on a small? Now who is guarding the rim when Josh or Al is chasing a point guard? Oh, I forgot. It’s Bibby, who’s bionic super strong legs keep bigs from posting him up and scoring on him. Yeah, that never happens.
We got lucky with Horford on Nash. Really lucky. But people wonder why we give up layups to teams like New York and New Orleans. Look the switching defense works, but NOT EVERY TIME. Smarter coaches know how to exploit it. Some have already. It does work a lot of times. But there are times where it does not. We don’t have all the right personnel for that system, and not everybody is in the right frame of mind with it every night, either.
Woody is doing a good job. The team is doing a good job. There is always room for criticism, particularly until you’ve won it all.
KevinA
January 17th, 2010
12:05 am
If Bibby got hurt, (30 min avg.), Jamal would play 40 min instead of 30. Evans is capable of bringing the ball up the court and handing the ball off to JJ. JJ can play the point. Of course Teague and Mario would get their shots at proving they deserve to play.
Worst cast scenerio (serious long term injury) I am sure we could get a PG for a Rando/Collins/Joe Smith or go to the D League.
Out of our top 6 players in minutes Bibby getting hurt is the least of our worries.
northcyde
January 17th, 2010
12:17 am
A lot of you guys are comparing totally different situations, and trying to apply that to Teague.
* Ty Lawson
At the beginning of the season, JR Smith was not ready to play because of injury. With the Nuggets only having 3 healthy guards at that time, Lawson was basically forced into playing time right away. Carter started at PG, Chauncey at the 2, and Lawson was the backup PG. He played great on opening night, setting the tone for him to continue to get playing time. When JR Smith came back, Lawson had played well enough to basically send Carter rotting on the bench. The injuries to Smith and then to Billups, has allowed Lawson to develop.
* DeJuan Blair
San Antonio doesn’t have a center. So technically, Duncan is the center. So if Duncan plays center, who plays PF? Matt Bonner started out as the starting PF. Then they tried McDyess in the PF/C role. Blair was getting minutes, because he was the best rebounder between the two. Once Bonner went down, Blair got thrust into the backup PF role full time. Now, Pop has him starting at CENTER. Blair is 6 foot 7.
In both of those cases, they’re not in a situation like Teague is in, where you have a pretty good veteran starter in Bibby, and a star combo guard in Crawford who can take minutes from him. This is not hard to understand why he doesn’t play 10 – 15 minutes every game. And he really hasn’t played his way into the lineup either.
I guess Larry Brown is doing Acie wrong too huh? Felton is the starter at PG. Augustin is the backup PG. And Flip is the all-purpose combo guard that sometimes even takes minutes from Augustin. So why should Larry create set minutes for Acie to play, just for the sake of development? Especially when that team has won 9 of their last 12 games?
Once again, in spot minutes, the kid is shooting 37% FG and 21% from 3. Why in the world would you take minutes from our best 3 point shooter ( Bibby ), and give them to a rookie PG that can’t make a shot from the outside, and has trouble finishing at the rim?
If he plays . . . great.
If he doesn’t . . . oh well.
Big Ray
January 17th, 2010
12:26 am
The other popular exaggeration has to do with Jeff Teague. You say you want to see the kid get 10-12 mpg, and the Woody-ites act like you’re trying to give him the starting job and release Bibby from the team.
What’s wrong with 10-12 mpg? How did that turn into “give him the starting job” or “rush him into development, hurry, hurry!”
Obviously some games it’s good to keep Joe, Jamal, and Bibby playing more, but some games…surely he can get some experience.
What I find even more humorous is that if the kid does well, it’s “well, that was in garbage time, I’m not impressed.” But you don’t want him to have “real time”….so what gives? Is it just more convenient to talk bad about the kid and highlight his shooting percentage? Is it more convenient, because then you can say “see? Woody’s a good coach, he keeps that scrub on the bench.”
If using JJ as a point guard was a bad idea, then what makes using Crawford that way a good idea? Crawford is not our backup pg, he’s a security blanket (and a damn good one). He’s the first guard off the bench, and sometimes the only one (though I count Mo Evans as a 2, really). I ain’t complaining, I’m just calling it like it is. Every team Jamal has played for, he really has ended up being the 2. Why? Because he’s simply better “off the ball.” So we don’t have a backup pg . It’s just that simple.
I’m tired of hearing Acie Law’s name when it comes to rookie pgs and minutes. The guy got decent minutes until Bibby came, and that’s all there is to it. I mean, gee whiz, there was Lue and AJ in front of him. Of course you’re going to play the rookie. Law is not Teague, Teague is not Law. The players aren’t the same, and neither is the situation.
I know one thing is for certain: we haven’t lost any games because Teague got to play. Nor have we won any that way.
If it shouldn’t be so hard to believe that Teague hasn’t earned playing time, then it shouldn’t be too hard to believe that he HAS earned it. Who said anything was easy? Playing for Woody is easy? Hah! I rather doubt it. And I’m not saying it should be. But earning minutes may not always have anything to do with a guy playing. Point guard is a very important position. Teague may have earned the minutes, but Woody may feel better with a seasoned veteran in the game.
And along that vein of thinking, I have to say that if Teague doesn’t get minutes, it isn’t because he didn’t earn them. It’s because Woody saw fit to play whomever he saw fit to play, as he judged the situation at hand. And before a Woody-ite jumps on me, I’m not suggesting that he has always, or even often made the wrong decision in doing so.
Assuming that Teague didn’t play because he stunk it up in practice (or otherwise didn’t earn it) is just as presumptuous as assuming that Woody isn’t playing him at times, because he hates the kid. And where is playing time earned? In practice or in games? Both? We don’t know what happens in practice. We only see the games. So an assumption either way is folly.
Big Ray
January 17th, 2010
12:42 am
Northcyde ,
Actually, Teague is playing 10.7mpg.
Really, you have two kinds of people clamoring for Teague to play. Those who just want to see him get more minutes, and those who see opportunities during games, where Teague could get meaningful time, and might even be able to help.
You make some good points about Blair and Lawson.
I don’t figure Larry Brown is doing Acie wrong. Acie has been trade bait twice now, and will be lucky to be an NBA journeyman. But he’s a victim of planning and inability to focus. Charlotte didn’t trade for Law, he was just part of the package. They had their two pgs already.
Teague was not drafted to take Bibby’s job this year. He was drafted to eventually take it, and how soon that would be is anybody’s guess. However, he is a pg, and Jamal is not. Jamal is a guy who can score like nobody’s business, which is why Woody plays him. Jamal started off passing and stuff, but Woody wasn’t down with that, he wanted Jamal to score, not distribute. Therefore, Jamal is once again….NOT A PG. Hey, it works for now, so I’m not blasting him for it. It doesn’t change the fact that we basically have one pg on our roster who plays. Put Jamal and Joe in the game, and the ball movement ain’t the same. We resort to ISOs and missed jumpers.
It’s easy to pick on Teague for his shooting percentage. But…
“Once again, in spot minutes, the kid is shooting 37% FG and 21% from 3.”
Yep. And what rookie have you seen that has shot well from the field in “spot minutes?” I’m just saying. I’d be more worried about his ball-handling and defense than I would his shooting. I mean, our “best 3 point shooter” is also shooting a whopping 41.8 percent from the field overall. Yep, a gigantic 4.8 percentage points higher than our crappy little rookie pg. I guess this is what he has to aspire to…heh…
But, the thing Teague has in common with Bibby is the ability to take care of the ball. The kid gets 2 assists per game to 0.7 turnovers per game in his spotty minutes. Not bad for a rook guard who some thing is better playing off the ball. I think I can wait on his shot. Hell, he can too, since whether or not he plays is irrelevant. Right?
rms
January 17th, 2010
12:43 am
Hey whatever works, right!! I still say worse case scenerio if Bibby re-injures that ankle then we are in a tough spot. Crawford is not a PG. He can play PG for a little while but you really dont wont him playing PG for an extended amount of time. I think most people fear is that if Bibby hurts his ankle more severely then we will be forced to play Teague and that actually may cost us some games by not having him ready ahead of time especially when teams are jockying for playoff position late in the season.
Big Ray
January 17th, 2010
12:45 am
KevinA ,
I don’t know about all that. When Bibby is not in the game, the ball movement all too often goes to sh_t. Seriously.
rms
January 17th, 2010
12:47 am
and Big Ray:
When you say Teague is playing 10.7 MPG, keep in mind that is just an average not what he actually plays per game. Some times he plays 2-4 mins or sometimes he gets DNP CD. When the Hawks were blowing opponents out his average went up along with all the other reserves because the game was already decided so they would just play the entire 4th quarter.
Big Ray
January 17th, 2010
12:51 am
rms ,
I think that’s a valid fear. Bibby can be porous on defense and sometimes can’t buy a shot, but he is very good at taking care of the ball, making decisions, moving the ball around, giving it to the right guy off a screen and roll….and even sets one hell of a screen.
If he gets hurt, Teague will see his minutes go up, but then again…maybe not. No matter how you slice it, Jamal or Joe gets stuck playing pg, when both are far better utilized off the ball. Teague won’t be ready, but he may get pressed into service.
On the one hand, it will be valuable, and probably painful experience.
On the other hand, we’ll get to see him make mistakes and guess what? All the people who want to see him rot on the bench will get to say “See, I told you he was a scrub! See, I told you he wasn’t ready! See? See? See!” ….and we’ll never hear the end of it….
rms
January 17th, 2010
12:52 am
I defitnitley agree when our starting pg is not in the game we have zero ball movement. I think Woodson is more concerned with winning now so he can get a new contract than some rookie getting minutes. You can hear him on the sidelines calling him “rook”. He dont even call him by his name but he says ” Hey rook” ” Come here rook”
rms
January 17th, 2010
12:55 am
Co-sign that 12:51 post. Cant disagree about that one. And you know what else, that doggone Samuel might be right about Woodson being COY!!! I hate to admit it but he might be right!!
Big Ray
January 17th, 2010
12:55 am
rms ,
No doubt. I know that Teague’s minutes vary from game to game. Northcyde had said that it was easy to see why Teague didn’t get 10-15 mpg. I was just pointing out that he DOES get just inside that range of PT. But you’re right. It’s not steady by any means, and I respect that fact that some games the coach decides that he needs to keep his veteran guards in there.
I may not always agree with it (I really think Teague should have gotten some decent minutes against NY, at least until he proved he was not going to be any help in the game), but I can understand it. I mean, what coach salivates at the idea of playing his rookie when he has three veteran guards he can use, two of which are 20ppg capable guys? It is what it is….
Big Ray
January 17th, 2010
12:59 am
When the Hawks were blowing opponents out his average went up along with all the other reserves because the game was already decided so they would just play the entire 4th quarter.
True. What bugs me is when people say he shouldn’t get significant minutes because he isn’t such a good shooter, but then when he DOES get minutes in blowout games, they scoff at his stats, saying it only happened in garbage time. It also bugs me that people only see shooting percentages. What about other aspects of the game? The kid has only 0.7 turnovers per game. That ain’t nothing but a good thing! Even if you tripled his minutes and therefore tripled his stats, that would be 6 apg and 2.1 turnovers per game. Guess what? That’s even better than Bibby.
Of course, that math is straight statistics, and not reality.
Big Ray
January 17th, 2010
1:02 am
rms ,
If this team wins 55 or more games, or otherwise manages to win the southeastern division, I think Woody can start making space on his wall for that COY plaque.
Then again, you never know. These awards are funny things. They may give it to the coach of the OKC Thunder, especially if they keep winning like they are, and make the playoffs. Particularly if they make the playoffs at a higher seed than 8th.
rms
January 17th, 2010
1:04 am
Gotta point there. I forgot about that, but then again they may look at the improvement Woodson has done over the years and give it to him. Well see……
cp
January 17th, 2010
1:30 am
rms and Big Ray great post… Its like if a person suggest Teague gets a consistent 10 to 15 minutes on here certain guys act as if you want Teague to start or we need to bury Bibby on the bench. No one is saying that. What we are saying is give the kid some time and let him blossom and see what he can do out there. How hard is that to understand?.. And I see certain guys only come around when we win to pat their boy on the back but when we were losing I didn’t see any post what so ever. But hey I guess its like he said, when we win its because of Woodson and when we lose its because of the players. Funny how that works.
J-MAN
January 17th, 2010
1:34 am
CAN WE PLEASE SIGN JAMAL CRAWFORD LONG TERM!!!!!!
stevo
January 17th, 2010
1:46 am
i’ll try this again using a short version (maybe, we’ll see).
if you give teague 10-15 minutes a game (assuming a close, meaningful game for 48 minutes), where do you take it? if just the guards, assume johnson/bibby/crawford only play the 1 or 2 then that is 96 minutes for three proven, veteran, BETTER guards. 32 each (if you happen to be mathematically challenged). take 12 minutes away and now you are talking 28 each. are you freakin kidding me?!?!?! of course it doesn’t work like that. lets take woodson’s habit of overplaying johnson and assume he just played the standard 36-38 minutes that any star (and if the hawks have one, he is it) should play. lets say 38 because that is much closer to reality. so now you have 58 for bibby and crawford. @ 30 is probably right for bibby and maybe a little low for crawford, but ok. but if you take ten minutes out of that, now they are talking about 24 minutes each for the two of them. again, what universe do you live in where that is how the veteran, proven, only real half court offense you have players get those kind of minutes (awful sentence, but you get the meaning and i am too lazy to go back).
the point is this is not the time or the team or the place for teague to get a taste in any other situation besides blow outs. AND THAT IS A GOOD THING!!!!
and if you start talking about johnson getting some minutes at the three, we could do the very same exercise in minutes not being enough to include williams/evans/pachulia/smith/horford, not to even mention the other smith.
those of you who are clamoring for teague do not know basketball in my opinion.
cheers!
northcyde
January 17th, 2010
1:50 am
For the record, I’m not anti-Teague. I’m just not in a rush to play the kid, when this team is obviously playing well without trying to give him 10 – 12 minutes every night.
And Jamal is a guard that can play both the point and the 2. Just because he’s not the distributor that the typical PG is ( even though he’s shown that he can be ), doesn’t mean that he can’t play the position. He’s an obviously better SG, but he can play the point. The 2 plays he made late in the 4th quarter, in which Josh Smith got dunks, proves that he can play the position if need be.
In Woody’s offense though, the PG ( or lead guard ) must be able to score the basketball. The most glaring problem with Teague, is actually not his jumpshooting, but his inability to finish at close range
http://www.nba.com/hotspots
Go to that link and pull up . . HAWKS . . 2009 – 10 REGULAR SEASON . . and TEAGUE’S name. As a PG, he needs to be finishing at least at a 50% rate when he gets close to the rim. The fact that he’s finishing at a 42% rate is alarming. Very alarming. If you can’t finish close to the rim, then you need to be at least like Brandon Jennings, and have a jumpshot ( although that’s been failing him big time lately )
If he’s playing mainly against the other team’s 2nd unit, and he’s only finishing 42% of the time when he gets close to the rim, how successful can he ( or will he ) be against the 1st team?
For a comparison, go to that same site, and pull up Ty Lawson’s name. When you see his chart, you see why Lawson plays.
I got no problem with Teague playing as much as 15 minutes a night . . . provided that he’s going to be effective in that time period. But an automatic 10 – 12 mintues a night? Shoot . . . even a vet like Mo Evans doesn’t get an automatic 10 – 12 minutes a night. Woody has on a few occasions, decided to DNP Evans, and play Teague.
Teague simply isn’t quite ready folks. And as our coach said at the beginning of the year . . . he’s not sacrificing wins just to get people playing time.
northcyde
January 17th, 2010
2:16 am
Let me take that back. Evans only has 1 DNP on the year. But Woody has opted to put Teague in the game and play him, before playing Evans, on a few occasions.
Stevo . . . another thing that people aren’t addressing, when it comes to Teague’s playing time, is the overall play of the 2nd unit this season. They’ve been, as a group, below average at best. Yet, people keep insisting that Woody “develop” the bench. Don’t lose the game . . . but develop the bench. It just doesn’t make any sense. We are in no position to sacrifice possible games, just to develop people.
You think Phil Jackson is “losing sleep”, because he can’t find any minutes to develop Adam Morrison?
We’re not a rebuilding franchise anymore.
He has to play the bench, but he doesn’t have to leave them in the game if they’re going to play poorly.
nunna yo biznezz
January 17th, 2010
3:08 am
northcyde,
great post,but i have to disagree with you.
yes now,crawford is the backup pg,but he can play both and that was expected.but,he was brought in to spell jj and to occasionally play with jj in the backcourt until they got used to playing with each other..
teague was drafted to get the chance to be the number 2 pg behind bibbs..teague showed even in pre-season that he needs playing time and that he can play in this league..
as for all of the “give teague more PT or BURN timers”,and the ones who defends this coach and his lack of player development,you are both right..
teague is good,and teague is not ready yet..
im not confused,but,teague is stuck somewhere in the middle of that because we don’t and probably won’t see what he is truly made of this year because of lack of playing time..
again,the 2nd rotation looked to have been,teague-crawford at the guard spots,joe smith-moe evans at the forward spots,then zsa zsa or even randmo or collins on nights that woody wanted to match up with opponents like cleveland and shaq or orlando and howard or even lopez,gasol(spell check!!..”niques voice when he says heat check”),or whoever..
and lastly northcyde,
when woody goes to a full 10 man rotation,we have won..
when teague,mo,joe smith,zsa zsa all get come in as a 2nd unit,we have won..and the 1st unit would normally put the game out of reach in the 3rd because of the rest they had in the 1st half and then we’d see the 2nd unit playing 8 minutes plus in the 4th quarter..
our bench,sure,they will have an off nights….
sure they will miss defensive assignments but so does the 1st unit..
sure, the shots won’t fall on some nights but neither does the 1st unit sometimes..
just like u leave the 1st unit in on off nights why not leave the 2nd unit in as well..unless they have a nice lead and the 2nd unit squanders it away,then yes i can see a reason not to leave them in..
but,it will be woodys fault if this team has to rely on the bench in an important game or stretch and they play like crap..
if woody would really need the 2nd unit because of major injuries,late in the season,this team won’t be ready and his sorry excuse will be is that his bench is not capable..
same excuse every year..
stevo
January 17th, 2010
4:04 am
man, that is the second post of mine that has been lost to cyber nowhere or somewhere or i don’t know where (and that first one was good). maybe someone in power doesn’t like what i have to say.
fair enough. lets try this:
‘nunna yo…’, you claim woody isn’t using and/or developing the bench. but if you compare the hawks’ starters average minutes to the starters on any other top team, they are generally less. almost across the board. so by what measure do you make that assertion?
it rings false and hollow and ill-informed (at best) to me. please enlighten me so i am no longer confused.
cheers!
KevinA
January 17th, 2010
4:17 am
Big Ray,
I know one thing is for certain: we haven’t lost any games because Teague got to play. Nor have we won any that way.
I agree with that point. I would hazard to guess Woody wants to play Teague during those situations when he cannot affect the game to much. Big leads or big deficits.
KevinA
January 17th, 2010
4:30 am
2010 vrs 2009, Teague vrs Acie Law
Teague 3.7% of minutes, Acie Law 2.8 % of minutes.
KevinA
January 17th, 2010
4:51 am
The biggest change in minutes is between Al and ZaZa. 2009 vrs 2010
ZaZa went from 7.5% to 5.6%
Al went from 11.4% to 14.3%
Bibby 13.9 to 11.5
Marvin 10.6 to 12.1
Josh 12.3 to 13.6
JJ 15.8 to 15.5
Flip 10 Jamal 12.1
Evans 9.3 to 6.2
Jamal has gotten a chunck of Bibby’s minutes due to good play.
Al is getting ZaZa minutes because of good play.
In total the bench (minus the top 6 players) has lost close to 7% of minutes played even with the blow outs
Of course you have to factor in last years injury.
Numbers are never perfect.
dap01
January 17th, 2010
7:47 am
When you are getting beat because the opposing pg is so quick, why not put your quickest defender on him? Or why not make the opposing pg have to guard a quick pg like Teague. Bibby is the slowest, least athletic guard in the NBA.
Woody’s well thoughtout game plan, “Bibby, give the ball to ISO Joe”
Fritz
January 17th, 2010
7:51 am
Samuel,
The topic isn’t Teague – it is about the contributions that Teague MAY provide, given the opportunity, for our team to overcome those situations when, because of Woody’s intractability, we underperform. It is about games when we underperform, games when we melt down, games that we could win, or should win (see CAVS, KNICKS), games that could make us a GREAT team, a STRONGER team, rather than a very good team with significant flaws. It is about our Coach’s ability to adapt to game circumstances as they unfold, it is about giving a sh*t about our offense and what happens when our jump shots aren’t falling and everyone is standing around watching Joe or Jamal go one on one. It is about what to do when our defensive sh*t DOESN’T work and opposing guards are undressing Bibby and Crawford and shredding our interior for layups and dishes.
Samuel, it ISN’T ABOUT TEAGUE AT ALL. What IT IS ABOUT is WOODY. I’m not a HATER, and I suspect that a lot of other critics aren’t either. In fact, if Woody ever figures out how to GROW Teague (Mario as much as I love him is not the answer) – and to put a bit more CARING to the OFFENSE – he just might be COY. As a Hawk fan, nothing would make me happier than to see that!
northcyde
January 17th, 2010
8:45 am
6th man – Crawford
7th man – Zaza
8th man – Mo
9th man – Teague/Joe Smith
10th man – Teague/Joe Smith
Depending on the game situation, Teague is going to be the 9th or 10th man off the bench.
J.J.M.
January 17th, 2010
9:30 am
Breaking News Josh Smith will not attend dunk contest
doc
January 17th, 2010
9:32 am
northcyde, i think mario will be an option before teague is played now that he is on board. as good a mario is he woludnt have stopped the slash of nate or other quicks. havent we seen that before? the guys like parker that hammer us watched him totally take over a game last year when ginobli and duncan wewre not even dressed and bowen was mainly on the bench in much the same fashion nate did last year. mario didnt stop those guys before and he wont stop them now. he is relentless but not that quick or fast for the real quicks in the league. teague has now slumped to the 10th or11th man if he stays in uniform and on the bench. randmo might be in front of him and only collins behind him.
as so eloquently put by fritz, to not use teague and develop him it also doesnt address the glaring needs the offense has at times when its shooters arent shooting and the passing lanes are not open to get it into the interior. jamal can get the ball there sometimes but not as reliably as teague. teague has the capacity to naturally get into the face of the defense with his quickness and ability to not cause turnovers, a weakness of acie’s in comparison. mario will not help the offense one lick. it is teague’s ability to penetrate that isnt being developed that ultimately slow the progress of this team into the champions i think we can become. if it isnt teague then sund better keep an eye on the waiver list to see if someone doesnt fall off the moon into his hands. if not this season then in the off season as bibby, jamal, jj and mario are not the answer to those particular match ups. look carefully because that is how we are swamped against orlando; their point guards seem to have their day with us including a guy that we rejected going off on us last year.