Back from Boston
Greetings, all-
Just got back from Boston and am in the office, waiting to head over to Philips for practice.
Some links:
Two Boston Globe stories from last night’s game.
Game story that focuses on Glen Davis‘ flagrant foul on Marvin Williams, and what happened after.
“I was surprised,’’ Davis said. “I’m a big guy. I don’t feel like I did it intentionally. Really, when I was coming down, I was trying to hold him from falling. The refs made a decision. I can’t get mad and upset at them.’’
A column questioning the Celtics’ status at the top of the East.
(Joe) Johnson, who finished with 36, is a quiet assassin. The former Celtic – can you believe he was traded to Phoenix for Tony Delk and Rodney Rogers? – is one of the league’s best pure scorers and shows no emotion when he snuffs the confidence of opposing defenses. The Hawks are a young team and Johnson is only 28, but he has a veteran savvy that teammates pick up on.
From the Boston Herald:
“We still feel we’re the better team,” said an exhausted Paul Pierce, who like the rest of a closing unit that included Glen Davis, Rajon Rondo, Ray Allen and Kendrick Perkins, played the last 19 minutes without a substitution by associate coach Tom Thibodeau, who took over for Rivers. (Ed. note: That was pretty big. Brian Scalabrine had been eating up the Hawks but I don’t think he played in the fourth quarter.)
“The year we won the (2008) championship, we lost four times to Washington. It definitely bothered us, but we’re a better team, and it will show.”
Perkins seconded that emotion.
“It’s not like I fear them,” he said. “I don’t think anyone on this team fears them. They look at us like a rival, but I don’t think we look at them as a rivalry team.”
ESPN’s Daily Dime touts the Hawks as “legitimate playoff contenders.”
It’s funny to me, I may have said this before, but I’m going to guess that Joe Johnson, as well as the Hawks, are held in much higher esteem outside of metro Atlanta than they are in it, or at least by the various participants on the blog. It reminds me of the Bible verse about how a prophet has no honor in his own country and, no, I’m not comparing the Hawks to Jesus. It’s just the sense that the grass is greener on the other side and that, the more you can look at something, the more warts you start to see. I imagine there’s people in Paris who are like, “The Mona Lisa? My five-year-old could paint that.”
I was on a radio show in Cleveland before the Hawks’ two-game set with the Cavaliers, and we were talking about fans’ disenchantment with Johnson’s overdribbling, and the show hosts were saying how Cavs fans have the same gripe about LeBron James.
Now, frankly, I tend to think that my colleagues in Boston have overrated the Hawks a little bit – they certainly wouldn’t have called Johnson an assassin on Saturday. But I also think that maybe many of us underrate the Hawks, too.
Anyway, my take on what Pierce and Perkins said. I think they might be on to something. Yes, the Hawks have now taken three in a row. However, Boston’s record is better and I think you’d have to say they’re a better night-in, night-out team. If, for example, Boston finishes with 57 wins and the Hawks sweep the Celtics but finish with 50, wouldn’t you have to say that they’re better than the Hawks?
If you say that winning three in a row means that the Hawks are better than the Celtics, then couldn’t you make a similar argument that the Knicks are better than the Hawks?
Clearly, the Hawks have played with focus and determination against Boston that we haven’t seen against other teams. The Celtics, perhaps not surprisingly, haven’t been able to match the sort of playoff-type fervor that the Hawks save for them.
Thoughts?
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119 comments Add your comment
northcyde
January 12th, 2010
3:48 pm
First off Ken . . . good luck in your next venture. I personally appreciated your opinions about the Hawks, even if I didn’t approve of them sometimes. So good luck in everything you do in the future.
@ Dan . . . you summed up exactly how I feel about the Hawks. And that’s the very reason I challenge the rationale of the overly negative fans, more than I do the inconsistent nature of the Hawks.
They only have 2 more hurdles to clear before becoming a legit championship contender:
1) Taking care of home court against just about every team in the league.
2) Become a .600+ winning % team on the road, because the truly great teams will win 25+ games on the road.
They’re not there yet, but they’re getting closer. They’re showing the ability to win big road games against good teams ( @ Portland, @ Boston, @ Dallas, played very well @ Cleveland in a loss ).
But they have a new hurdle to overcome. A hurdle that no one is talking about. And that is . . . . how to play night in and night out, when lesser teams look at you as “elite”.
That’s what I think is happening with teams like the Knicks and the lesser Eastern Conference teams we’ve lost to. They’re getting pumped up for us, like we do the Celtics. Those teams don’t count the Hawks as an automatic win anymore. They know that they have to bring their A-game to beat us. In the eyes of those teams, beating a good Hawks team ( especially at home ), is just like beating Phoenix, or Denver, or Orlando in their building.
Yes folks, we ARE ON THEIR LEVEL. don’t let anybody tell you different.
Bottom line is that while this year’s and last year’s team have similar records, this year’s team has the ability to much more greater things, because they’ve proven that they can win big road games. No, they can’t win them all . . . but they can win some of them.
Rod from College Park
January 12th, 2010
3:50 pm
Fundamentals
“Nique for Marvin – Nique was one of a kind, though time will tell.”
Your comparison was nice, but this comparison was not. Even if Marvin became the best small forward in the league tommorrow, he could not carry Nique’s bags. Nique could well be considered the best small forward of his generation, behind maybe Bird, Marvin’s not the best small forward that the Hawks have under contract (Chills).
Sautee
January 12th, 2010
3:51 pm
Astro joe,
Regarding this:
“If my math is correct, winning around 54-56 games means that the Hawks would lose 3 of every 10 games. Or, close to 1 of every 3. With this fan base, losing like that would result in frequent “fire Woody, trade Joe, bench Bibby, Horford is too small, Josh is too inconsistent, Marvin is a bust” comments on the way to a very successful season.”
LOL. This crowd was saying those things back when we were on a pace to win SIXTY!
I guess we should be complaining that there’s not enough to complain about!
O'Brien
January 12th, 2010
3:52 pm
from ESPN dailydime: “Atlanta shimmied to within a game of the Magic in the Southeast Division with Monday’s triumph, and Woodson told his troops to proceed with a goal of securing the division crown.”
I agree. Plus if we win the division, we will probably be the 3rd seed, and more than likely we would not see Orlando until the ECF (assuming we both win and advance).
I’ve given Woody a hard time, and in the past, I’ve contemplated buying one of Clyde’s T-shirts. But the more I think about it, it’s probably going to be similar to what Ken is talking about. The grass always looks greener on the other side, and that includes coaches too.
The really good (established and proven) coaches are employed. As a result, I would be okay if Woody would just hire an established offensive coordinator (we need some offensive sets). Woody would also need to listen to his offensive coordiantor, and also be more flexible and willing to make adjustments with rotations and switching.
David Smith
January 12th, 2010
3:53 pm
The main problem with this team is consistency. These guys can play like world beaters one night and completely lay an egg the next game. Mike Woodson needs to draw up a more free flowing offensive plan instead of letting Joe Johnson predictably dribble into double teams while everyone else is just standing around instead of presenting themselves for a better shot. Woodson has no excuses since Rick Sund has given him several key free agents to bolster the bench and needs to let Jeff Teague play his game instead of stunting his progress by relegating him to the bench.
Sautee
January 12th, 2010
3:59 pm
Did anyone else notice that BEFORE Zaza’s alleged flagrant foul, that Perkins blatantly traveled? He gathered himself with a two footed bunny hop backwards to try to gain some space. Unbelievable that the refs missed it.
Sautee
January 12th, 2010
4:01 pm
And speaking of the refs, does anyone think that if last night’s game was in the playoffs, that we’d get a foul disparity in our favor? Dream on.
Melvin
January 12th, 2010
4:21 pm
Sautee,
I saw that bum, Kendrick Perkins travel by for the foul. I was yelling at the refs from my living room….
rms
January 12th, 2010
4:22 pm
Dang Ken thats actually a good story you wrote there. Maybe the grass does seem to be greener on the other side. What if Johnson tearn his achilles and is lost for the season, then what?? Maybe we will realize just how important Johnson really is to this team. We have been very fortunate this year to have any serious injuries to this team and we complain and complain (myself included) about how the bench isnt used effectively, the lack of play by Teague, the ISO-play by our two guards Crawford and Johnson. I am sure other teams complain about their player too, Lakers and Kobe, Clevleand and Lebron, Denver and Carmelo and so on. I just want us to be consistent and have some sort of identity.
Astro Joe
January 12th, 2010
4:22 pm
Sautee, Perkins did more traveling last night than Forest Gump! Thank gooedness Woody finally realized that Horford did not need any help with the dancing bear in the post. That adjustment made a huge difference in the team’s ability to defend the 3-point shot.
Melvin
January 12th, 2010
4:23 pm
I like Kendrick Perkins about as much as Rod from CP likes Marvin…
Fundamentals
January 12th, 2010
4:28 pm
Rod,
I figured I’d get some beef for that one. Not really spinning Marvin as in the same league. More that Nique was a unique talent. It’s hard to compare anyone to his unique skill-set. He was one of a kind, but in the end he alone wasn’t enough for the Hawks to be relavant in his day.
GeeMack,
They do have records in the west, but who is touted as the Bigs of the West? Maybe San Antonio, Denver or Dallas? Most folks consider the Lakers an easy WCF Champion to face one of the big 3? You don’t hear alot of conversation otherwise.
I’m tired of folks discounting the East like it’s inferior. There are plenty of good teams in the East.
GeeMack
January 12th, 2010
4:55 pm
Fundamentals
I hear you. Like you said Dalla SA, and Denver are legit challengers to the Lakers. Also with the way the Lakers are playing the can be beat.
I don’t discount the east, but I think the west is bette overall. Good point though.
Rod from College Park
January 12th, 2010
5:02 pm
Malvin,
Two bums.
Rod from College Park
January 12th, 2010
5:09 pm
Melvin,
Two bums.
Fundamentals,
I am not of the belief that because you did not win you were not great. I understand your point, but one should not be judged in basketball by win and loses. I Dominique was on the Lakers with Magic at the 3, would he not have been as good as Worthy. Worthy could not come out and give you 30 a night with the other team totally focusing on him. The Hawks were relevant, just not good enough to beat teams with more than one dominant player.
MAD-DONNA
January 12th, 2010
5:14 pm
The Hawks are a group of really good athletes, without a strong organization behind them! From Woodson on up, this organization really fails in all areas! I mean really, they need help and the best they can do is Mario West?
T-Man
January 12th, 2010
5:27 pm
Mario West rocks….They need a shut down defense guy for people like Rondo and that shrimp from New York….
MAD-DONNA
January 12th, 2010
6:05 pm
T-man if Mario rocks, he would have been picked up before now!
MAD-DONNA
January 12th, 2010
6:24 pm
whoa!
junebaby
January 12th, 2010
6:35 pm
Fundamentals…, i agree with some of your “then n now” assessment, but i disagree on joe smith/antoine carr. imo antoine carr had some of the best offensive moves of any forward around at the time. there may have been some other issues that kept him from being a star, but it wasn’t his offense, same with the late eddie johnson(fast eddie), greased lightning. if “john drew”(and eddie) hadn’t succumbed to the atlanta crack epidemic, he would have maybe been atl’s greatest scorer ever. imo dan roundfield was the best rebounding forward atlanta ever had, and tree had that little jump hook he pulled out occasionally. spud webb was a gimmick, but he could really push the basketball at times, when he had teammates willing to fill the wings.
theZaZaguy
January 12th, 2010
6:44 pm
The thing about nique is, he really wasn’t great when he first entered the league. He drove to the basket a lot, tired himself out dunking during warm-ups, didn’t play much defense and couldn’t hit a jump shot consistently.
After 3-4 years in the league, he improved his defense, developed a shot, learned the game and got better and better every year to reach his peak (although I’m still waiting for the left handed baby hook he promised us).
Our boys today haven’t even hit their peak, and they’re still dominating good teams. Atheletes hit their physical peak at around age 25. Most of our guys are 24. Nique didn’t hit is NBA peak until he was about 28. The future is very bright…very bright indeed.
theZaZaguy
January 12th, 2010
6:44 pm
Happy birthday Nique!
richbrave
January 12th, 2010
7:28 pm
KEN STRICKLAND:
Just caught the posts from yesterday and today. Thanks for the good words. It actually helped the pain a bit.
When I think back and remember how loudly I protested GILBERT’s actions in ‘07-’08, right here on SEKOU’s blog, I remember then that I didn’t blame AGENT ZERO for being who he was when he laid out the “JAMISON stays or I go” ultimatum or later on, “the” contract. If you remember I protested loudly then about ownership’s and management’s actions, not GIL’s.
If he could influence the signing of a teammate he was just being GIL. The management knew who he was at that point, and condoned his behavior by not letting him walk. Instead they signed him to that hidiously crippling contract. If I were GA, I would take the money and run just as he did. They thrust him into a position of leadership and responsibility with the money his brain couldn’t handle.
That’s not on him. The rational evaluation process was totally missing here. Yes, I do hold GILBERT accountable for his acts of stupidity, but I hold ownership equally responsible for the franchise’s demise by reinforcing the stupidity. “A fool and his money are soon parted” is a great old expression quite applicable in this instance.
Again, KEN, thanks. You be da’ man.
JerryWest
January 12th, 2010
7:58 pm
All star game selection:
JJ is in.
Josh should be in unless he plays badly rest of this month.
Josh+Al have great opportunities to beef up their stat in this 5 game homestand.
Josh’s main competitor Wallace is falling further behind, but Wallace still has superior numbers. Huge rebounding advantage for Wallace.
Al has to beat out Bogut/Lee/Noah/Bargnani. I hope the coaches look at total contribution rather than stats.
Starters: Howard/Garnett/LeBron/Iverson/Wade. Iverson has too big a lead to lose out to Carter. No Arenas.
Bench: Bosh/Pierce/JJ
Bubble: Rondo/Rose/MWilliams – Deng/Josh/Wallace – Lee/Bogut/Horford/Noah.
I think Garnett & Iverson will sit out. This is a weak East squad.
For Horford – next year might be a much harder year to make it to the All Star game chiefly because, Lopez will play next to a superstar and he will also get all the Chinese votes (Yi). Bynum might get traded for Bosh. The center positions in the East will become much more loaded.
Yi will also gobble up one of the forward spots next year.
Hopefully this year isn’t the largest window for Josh & Al. They really need to go all out in the next 3 weeks.
richbrave
January 12th, 2010
8:54 pm
And one final comment. Study the game tape of the WIZ-MAGIC game the other day, and come prepared for payback the next time the birds fly into disney’s world.
Melvin
January 12th, 2010
9:08 pm
Watching the Bobcats/Rockets game. Bobcats are dangerous when they go to the small lineup (Felton,Flip,SJackson,GWallace and Diaw)…. They can really cause matchup problems with that group…..
Blast
January 12th, 2010
9:17 pm
Can’t believe Doc and other Celts would even protest that flagrant by Big Baby on Marvin. He had Marvin by the neck, wrenching him down! Basketball is supposed to be a no contact sport!
It’s not a rivalry yet until Hawks beat Boston in the playoffs. Or sweep them two years in a row in the regular season. But Boston players must show some respect. Hawks have your number.
Bone.
My problem with you as a so-called Hawks fan is that you are just so negative. One, you seem to post during games only. And you bash the team big time. Two, you seem to expect Hawks to win now and win big. I would like that too. But Hawks are not built that way or have the payroll to do what Boston did when they got Garnett and Ray to play with Pierce and won a ring.
Hawks are built to get progessivelly better, and they are doing that, if you’ve been following the team for the last 10-20 years. Some nights they will lay a big fat egg, but most nights they will get it right. Real fans understand the limitations of their teams, and roots for them though thick and thin. Not bring them down when they are not doing well.
Hawks can be very successful if they defend, rebound, and most importantly, move/share the ball. They will do well if they perform all three. Ball does not need to stick. Hawks have enough scorers to knock down open shots when they move the ball.
Love the links, Ken!
mountainman36
January 12th, 2010
9:22 pm
wow that was a great game – i know im chiming in late, but i needed to say a few things.
the celtics are a better team, not because of a better record, but because of more consistency. that better record reflects the consistency. Now we seem to have thier number, and thats good.
i think the flagrant calls, both of them could have gone either way. zaza defineitely was worse. Big Baby really wasnt intending to hurt. a flagrant isnt just an on purpose foul, or even an agressive one, its one designed to hurt the other player…..that said, its about time we got some calls against an elite team…..If LBJ had done that, it wouldnt have been a flagrant. Just sayin.
we have a chance to run the table at home, so a 6 game win streak will sure make woody look good, and help JJ with the trade rumors…..
as for Al horford – hes a bit small, but hes still good…..once he gets that jumper down, and a bit more range hes gonna be a huge asset and weapon…..how many times did he have the ball at the top of the paint (at 3 point line) and the defence didnt even guard him. If he can be a bit more of a threat from range, that wll open up so much more…..slightly unrealistic i know, but Josh isnt taking 3 point shots anymore, and i never thought he would quit that…..
it could happen.
rms
January 12th, 2010
9:26 pm
richbrave:
How u got access to gametape??
Blast
January 12th, 2010
9:28 pm
Hope the Spurs can knock off the Lakers tonight.
richbrave
January 12th, 2010
9:29 pm
rms:
No, but hopefully the HAWKS do.
Big Ray
January 12th, 2010
10:55 pm
Sure, the Celtics are the better team.
And I’d love to play them in the playoffs and beat them. Then they can be the better team, and we can advance to the next round….
The Truth
January 13th, 2010
12:45 am
Big Ray, I agree
I would rather be labeled a spoiler team and advance to the championship final then to be labeled an elite team and get swept in the 1st round.
Perhaps that has been the Hawks problem. They are pursuing a label that is really unattainable during the regular season. All these so called “elite” teams have been getting their “azzs” handed to them lately. It reminds me of the Wizard of Oz story. Instead of pursuing an unreal Wizard as Alice did, the Hawks are pursuing an unreal “elite” label. In the process, they have shown us multiple personalities as a team and at times suffer from an identity crisis. They should subscribe to Alabama football head coach (Nick Saban) receipt for success: “BE WHO YOU ARE, AND DO WHAT YOU DO”
Clyde
January 13th, 2010
1:34 am
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
vava74
January 13th, 2010
6:04 am
Clyde,
Your contributions keep getting better and better!!!
JSS
January 13th, 2010
6:42 am
Ken S…
Chiming in before you walk out the Blog door… Remember I said you had “Big shoes to fill” when they placed you on the Hawks. You did that and more, it was a pleasure to have you around… I hope your Sports Editor took note…
Next time, make someone like Arthur take you to Legal Seafood at least!!!
Good luck!
justahawkfan
January 13th, 2010
8:39 am
Don’t get on Ken for what you consider to be negative assessment of the Hawks, he is just immulating what all you “great hawk fans” have been writing all season long. Oh I get it, it ok for me cut up my team but when blog writer do it just not right! You can believe boston consider us rivals, they just think that if they deny it not true.
Fundamentals
January 13th, 2010
8:45 am
Rod, Sounds like we’re thinking the same. I wasn’t dogging Nique, just saying he needed consistent help…like Joe Johnson does. No doubt he could’ve dominated if he were swapped for Worthy in LA.
Juneboy – I loved Carr. He had some great games, but he never seemed to commit fully to playing basketball. Always kinda out of shape, lazy & inconsistent. I’ve got a few games on tape that he did show he could’ve been an All-Star with consistent effort using his skill-set…kinda like Josh who is just now learning to bring what he has every night.
Spud – I gotta get mad on that one. Gimmick is a big harsh. The kid pushed the ball and changed the game. He hit timely jumpers and led the offense on a good 2nd unit. Don’t knock him for giving up the rock to shooters. He did his job, and he did it well. Teague could be the same thing for this team. An effective floor leader that totally changes the tempo of the game.
Mountainman36 – gotta agree on the homestand. A good 5-6 game win streak will quiet all the hate on the blog, but will it fix all our issues?
I’m still perplexed about our roster. Sometimes it looks like we have it wrapped, other times we show glaring deficiencies in a few key areas. Usually it’s related to effort, but I still say we need to research Bigs for the future. Mario should provide lock-down D at the guard position. Question is, even if we get pieces, Will Woodson use them?
Fundamentals
January 13th, 2010
8:46 am
THANK YOU KEN FOR YOUR BLOG & WORK HERE! Can’t say it enough.
Big Ray
January 13th, 2010
10:32 am
http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=14960
Big Ray
January 13th, 2010
10:34 am
THE TRUTH,
I agree. But Alice went down the rabbit hole. It was Dorothy who was after a Wizard….
Melvin
January 13th, 2010
11:08 am
Big Ray,
Nice link. Perkins made some good points. I think this team is capable of making it to the ECF. If that happens, then this cast deserve to be kept together at least another year. I also would like to see them add Chills to this team. We may have to lose Mo but I think Chills would be a good upgrade and a missing piece that could propel this team even higher…
theZaZaguy
January 13th, 2010
11:15 am
Would there be any possibility of adding JChill at the end of the year? Would this help or hurt if it were possible?
I MUS WRITE
January 13th, 2010
12:22 pm
Of course their not afraid of the Hawks ….What else are they gonna say-” The Hawks have beat us three times in a row and we’re terrified” NO!!! However they’re probably thinking 1. jamal crawford is gonna be a problem 2. These guys are yung athletic and they continute to improve while we are getting older and long in the tooth. 3. They could actually beat us in a second round match up this year.
RIO- Welcome Back Homie…..Woodson has his attack dog back on the bench
Why do the Celtics always cry and whine….. That flagrant was the same foul marvin put on rando a couple years ago-STF and get over it -We didnt complain like some panzys-Marvin took his suspension and that was it.
Legite Playoff contenders? Maybe so but we have to stop playing down to the level of our competition. While i thin NY is improving daily and will be a tough out in the 1st round for sum one…..Elite teams dont get lit up by Nate Robinson type players jus say’n
GeeMack
January 13th, 2010
12:52 pm
Big Ray that hoopsworld article was pretty good.
I MUS WRITE
They also didn’t complain about that lame flagrant ZaZa recieved ealier in the game.
Hawks fans
I here alot about the bench not playing, however when I look at the stats JJ is the only one playing over 36 minutes per game. He is also down from last years and the year before.
There 10 player averaging 9 min or more per game. Think its harder to get Teague more than 10 min. whe he splits time with Bibby & Crawford.
Daniel
January 13th, 2010
12:52 pm
Ken S- I wanted to tell you that your eight game assesment column was right on the money. Very good work. What will you be onto next?
I also agree with you that any team is undervalued by its own fans because we stare and compare every single day. I would submit that this may also apply to your assesment of us bloggers. Sure, there are a handful on here who consistently make the same complaints: Woody stinks, IsoJoe is the work of the antichrist, Marvin is a “duck” and you know exactly who each of those thoughts belongs too. However, the MAJORITY of the bloggers here love the Hawks, think positive about the team and have a lot of hope for success. You know what I am sayin’?
Daniel
January 13th, 2010
12:55 pm
GeeMack- why are you wasting our time with thoughtful, logical, and reasonable comments on here? C’mon man, you know you are supposed to have an agenda and then make the facts fit your opinion, or try to find something to complain about so you can look smarter than the room.
Daniel
January 13th, 2010
12:56 pm
IMUS- I am with you on everything you wrote except the Nate Robinson thing. I mean the guy was literal throwing up shots backwards with his eyes closed and banking in half-court shots. What can you do when I guy gets hot like that?
theZaZaguy
January 13th, 2010
1:05 pm
What can we do to someone who throws up balls backwards and it goes in? Deny him the ball, and foul him every time he gets the ball. Then foul him again for good measure. I wish we had a smaller version of ZaZa. Oh wait we do. We just got Mario.
Daniel
January 13th, 2010
1:13 pm
your right ZaZa, if only Mario had of been in the game Nate wouldn’t have gone off like that… (NOTE: sarcasm) I am glad Mario is back, but you don’t know that to be true. Hindsight is always 20:20