On to Indiana
Greetings, all-
Hope those of you who celebrated had a joyful Christmas. I spent mine with my family, including my two nephews who are in that Lego-toy car phase, so it was a lot of fun watching them enjoy their presents.
Anyway, onto the Pacers. I am at home and not with the team, so don’t have a lot to offer. I’ll say this. This is the last respite the Hawks get for awhile. Starting with the home-and-home with Cleveland, the Hawks play 11 of their next 17 against teams over .500. Seven are away, and seven are against Boston-Cleveland-Orlando. And of those “Big Three” seven, all of them are back-to-backs. It’s some pretty tough sledding. Against Indiana, the Hawks had best gather their rosebuds while they may, as it were. (Hopefully I understood the poem correctly. I was an economics major, not English.)
One interesting thing from the article I wrote for Saturday’s paper, talking to Joe Johnson, Dominique Wilkins, Steve Holman and Peachtree Hoops blogger Drew Ditzel about the season, looking back and ahead – what stuck out to me was that the predictions for wins were between 50 and 55. That means that the expectation is that the Hawks will fall off their current .714 pace. Right now, they’re on pace for 58-59 wins. But to go, say, 53-29, that means the Hawks would have to go 33-21 the rest of the way, which is .611 ball. Not bad at all, obviously, but not as good as they’ve done so far.
Looking at the next stretch, you’d have to think if they get through the next 17 anywhere above .500, it would be a success. Interesting link about Hawks’ schedule thus far. According to the formulas, the Hawks ought to be 22-6.
So, Indiana. The Pacers are without Danny Granger (torn plantar fascia) and have lost four in a row. Like I said the other day, I think the Hawks win this one, though it may be tougher than you might otherwise expect. (Standard proviso: I am wrong a lot on a variety of things.)
Anyway, something to consider watching Hawks-Pacers. Indiana has “lost seven games in which they led or were tied in the fourth quarter, including each of the past three,” according to an article by Indianapolis Star Pacers writer Mike Wells. That includes losses to Boston Dec. 22, when the Pacers led by 15 at halftime, Orlando, San Antonio and Portland.
This is off the topic, but I asked Steve Holman, the Hawks’ radio guy, to name his all-decade team. It’ll be in the Sunday paper. In checking out the story, I came upon something I’d completely forgotten about. The Hawks drafted Pau Gasol in 2001 as part of a trade to get Shareef Abdur-Rahim. Our own Mark Bradley was, praising then-GM Pete Babcock, saying that, through the trade and other moves, “he has remade a roster that ranked with the league’s worst, turning into an assemblage – might as well say it – of playoff caliber.” I’m going to have to guess Mark was not alone in his opinion.
Follow me here, though. The Hawks also got Vancouver’s first-round pick in that trade, which they traded to Indiana (used on Jamaal Tinsley) for a future first-round pick. Two years later, the Hawks used the Pacers’ pick to get Boris Diaw. And, as you know, Diaw and two first-rounders later went to Phoenix for Joe Johnson. So, maybe it wasn’t all so bad. (Though, you are free to point out, I’m going to guess the trade didn’t exactly hinge on Boris Diaw being a part of the deal.) (Sorry to ramble. I often find the long-term effects of trades kind of interesting.)
Happy Saturday and Hawks watching.
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287 comments Add your comment
bigdave
December 26th, 2009
12:07 pm
lets get it…
G-dot
December 26th, 2009
12:07 pm
First
G-dot
December 26th, 2009
12:08 pm
Damn bigdave thought i had you. Anyways the Hawks win easy tonight.
jgsbirds
December 26th, 2009
12:11 pm
in nashville so i won’t get to see my hawks tonight in indiana…unfortunately fox sports here is showing the predators and then an afternoon grizzlies game. good luck boys sure do need a win tonight.
Benjamin
December 26th, 2009
1:05 pm
Ken, as an English teacher, I have to point something out…
“Onto Indiana?”
Come on, man!
MannyT
December 26th, 2009
1:06 pm
He said he was an econ major.
Benjamin
December 26th, 2009
1:12 pm
lol Manny…
I’m just hoping to be acknowledged. Bradley doesn’t acknowledge my presence…
On a serious note, re: the upcoming schedule, I’m going to be very surprised if we can whip our way through it. The home and home vs. Cleveland will be telling, but it’s going to be brutal. If we can get through there at a 9-8 or 10-7 pace, I’m going to be super excited as a Hawks fan.
MannyT
December 26th, 2009
1:47 pm
Now is the time that the Hawks will show how legitmate they are. Next week starts the run of games against the better teams. I don’t want to overlook Indiana, but the games from now to Groundhog’s Day will really show where we stand.
KenS–the next 2 blocks of 10 games will be more telling. I hope the contest continues.
BWAF
Fire Woodson
December 26th, 2009
1:57 pm
Ken,
Diaw was traded because he had many porblems with Woodson. Ken, Billy Knight drafted great, but Woodson refused to play the talent he was given……..Thats why the whole rebuliding process took 5 years instead of 2 or 3. Diaw, Soudamire,Solomon Jones, and now Morris all were waisted…. The only pick that Knight made that was bad, was the Sheldon Williams over Roy….i wish we had Diaw off the bench now though…..
Ken what do you think about Marvin’s Game? I think he is very talented but he will never put up the stats because Joe and Jamal shoot every time they touch the ball.
I MUS WRITE
December 26th, 2009
3:04 pm
Marvin is a classic underacheiver…..I cant think of one team in the league where he would be the man or even a #2 option. Watch the game closely tonight-Marvin will get his shot blocked atleast twice,disappear for long stretches of the game,and at some point make u say WTF
I never liked the Abdul Rahim trade -I just thought Gasol would be better for us in the long run.
O'Brien
December 26th, 2009
3:30 pm
Cleveland dominated LA on the road yesterday, and Boston won in Orlando (without Pierce).
I know that we beat Boston in Boston earlier, but Boston also shot horribly from 3 that game.
With our schedule coming up, I look forward to seeing the Hawks rise up, and win some of these games (not just the home games).
I think Hawks win big tonight
BosnianBaller
December 26th, 2009
3:45 pm
That shareef trade made sense he was a 20 and 10 guy and he was the final piece of the rebuilding project.The Hawks had talented players,but the chemistry wasn’t there.
C-Theo Ratliff
PF-Abdur-Rahim
F-Glen Robinson
G-Jason Terry
G-Dan Dickau/Emannual Davis
tjhook
December 26th, 2009
3:49 pm
Marvin Williams is not going to solve our problems (defensive perimeter, an increase in aggressive scorers). If Williams was traded for say, a future first-round pick, could Childress be brought back from overseas? Also, could you ask Sund whatever happened to Mickeal Gelabale?
South ga boy in the atl
December 26th, 2009
4:47 pm
I mus write- I can’t understand the hatorade that gets poured all over marvin on this blog. Yes I know he was take no. 2 overall, but this mentality of he either has to be mello or he’s a bust just because he was taken no. 2 is dead wrong. There is a middle ground ya know. Yea I know he can look clumsy at times and he is a streaky shooter, but disappear. When it comes to offense there is only 1 ball, you realize that don’t you. He’s usually on the floor with the the team leader (Joe) who btw is around top 10 in scoring every yr, bibby who must be scoring or can’t really contribute because of his age and lack of defensive ability, Jamal who is and always has been a pure scorer for as long as he’s been in the league, and 2 guys down low (al and Josh) who avg double figures every night. I’m not sure what you see when you look at Marvin but what I see is a 23, let me say that again, 23 yr old 6′9″ forward with a tremendous wing span and good leaping ability who can be a long range shooter of 3’s (yes I said streaky but he can hit them which is more than you can say for Josh whose game I love- don’t get me wrong) and who can drive to hole and use either hand. A guy who brings good chemistry to the team (loved by his teammates) and has never been accused of any knucklehead stuff. He’s made tremendous improvement after just one yr of college ball and if he as on a team that needed him to score more then he would. I mean, hello, we were 4th in the league in scoring the last I checked. You Marvin haters need to get over it. He contributes in many different areas. He’s a team player and is willing to do whatever woody needs him to do. And did I mention HE’S 23. He will only get better !!!!!!
JeJe
December 26th, 2009
5:08 pm
Today’s game is a respite? Were the away NOH game, the home Knicks game, and away Chicago game a respite too?
JeJe
December 26th, 2009
5:09 pm
Why does everyone want Childress back? I don’t even think the guy is healthy.
He’s a frail player who puts up no numbers, has “this guy has no B-Ball IQ” moments, a horrific jumpshot he cannot get off contested, and only wants money
South ga boy in the atl
December 26th, 2009
5:24 pm
Oh JeJe I couldn’t agree more. Why would we want childress back. I wouldn’t trade Mo for 2 Childress’s. Mo gets 2.5 mil a yr and childress wanted 6+ mil per and I would pay Mo more than I would childress. Mo can score, he will hit a big 3 for you that chills never could and Mo works just as hard around the basket. Our gain (Mo), is Greece’s loss (chills)
LL Cool Scott
December 26th, 2009
5:48 pm
“Billy Knight drafted great…”
WHAT?!
2004 – Josh Childress over Luol Deng and Andre Iguodala
2005 – Marvin Williams over Deron Williams and Chris Paul
2006 – Shelden Williams over Brandon Roy (or my grandmother for that matter)
little dave
December 26th, 2009
5:50 pm
these are the type of games we lose just like the detroit game (omg y im i so negative)
ant banks
December 26th, 2009
6:07 pm
LLCOOL SCOTT,
please include the move for jj. the move for j-smoove. i actually like chills. he doesn’t need the ball to be effective.
AND IF WE HAD MADE THOSE MOVES THAT YOU SUGGESTED IN 05 AND 06 WE WOULD NOT HAVE HORFORD OR TEAGUE.
O'Brien
December 26th, 2009
6:16 pm
JeJe,
Check your stats. Chills averaged 11pts, 6 rebs per game, in his career for the Hawks, as a sixth man. Marvin averages 10 pts, 5 rebs for his career, mostly as a starter (and Marvn makes $7.5 mil annually). But yet you say Chills puts up no numbers?
I agree that his jump shot is ugly (and Marvin has a sweet stroke), but Chills doesnt take many jump shots. Woody used Chills to bring the ball up sometimes, and Chills had more impact on games than Marvin does (Chills provided key rebounds, and key buckets). Also, if you take a poll, Chills would win hands down over Marvin when it comes to higher basketball IQ.
However, you might be right in that Chills is about his money, but who isn’t? Why did JJ turn down a 4 year $60 mil extension? Because he wants more money. And thats just one example.
south ga boy in the atl,
I agree that Marvin might be the 6th option on this team behind the guys you mentioned. The issue then, would be Rick Sund, because why would you pay somebody ~$7.5 mil per year, when he is the 6th option on your team? However, he’s only 23, and he still has the potential to to improve his game, so for the sake of the Atl Hawks, I hope he becomes the player BK and Woody (and ‘Nique) thought he would be.
ant banks,
I’m a huge fan of Teague and Horford, but we dont know what Teague will develop into, and I would have taken CP3, DWill, or Roy at that time, even if it meant missing out on Horford.
terrell barron
December 26th, 2009
6:23 pm
Time for a new streak. Cleveland is on fire!
JeJe
December 26th, 2009
6:41 pm
My bad, you know I talk outs me arse all the time and dont know what ze fook Im tawking about.
South ga boy in the atl
December 26th, 2009
6:53 pm
Obrien you can’t compare chills numbers on a team that lacked any offense, other than jj, to marvin’s numbers on this top 5 offensive team. Chills would have zsa zsa type offensive numbers on this team. He would be lucky to avg 6 points a game on this team. And u r right about his shot. It had to be the ugliest jump shot I have ever seen. And lastly, there is every reason to believe Chill’s had just about reached his potential ( have you heard anything about him tearing up the league over in Greece) while Marvin has tremendous upside so I would gladly give Marvin the extra mil a yr over Chills and as stated earlier, I would much rather have Mo over chills also.
bigdave
December 26th, 2009
6:53 pm
Urban Meyer…?
Fire Woodson
December 26th, 2009
6:53 pm
LL Cool Scott,
The year we took Childress was also the year we took J Smith, so i would have to rate it an A+….Deng is not a better all around player than J chill was, and Igu has improved but i would take J chill over him any day..the guy really was a starter but came off the bench and still averaged around
6 boards
i still have faith that Marvin will be a 20 pt per game player in the future..Paul and Derron Williams have never won NBA Championships….And marvin plays in a guard offense and is the 5 th option on a title contending team
Now Sheldon over Roy that was Woodson choice all day long..he said he didnt want any more young players and since shelden played 4 years at duke, he felt he was more NBA ready than roy or gay
BONE
December 26th, 2009
6:58 pm
How many times does Ol Marvin the Duck get blocked 2day???????????
bigdave
December 26th, 2009
7:01 pm
lets get it!
BONE
December 26th, 2009
7:02 pm
So nobody wants to throw out a number lol?????????????
Kiki
December 26th, 2009
7:04 pm
At least 1 Bone. But that does not mean he has no talent. What he does not have right now is confidence.
BONE
December 26th, 2009
7:11 pm
I didn’t say he doesn’t have talent it’s actually hilarious watching Marvin play.
doc
December 26th, 2009
7:13 pm
tell it like it is o’brien, tired of the crap about chills. he was stiffed by management and anyone who has ever been in that situation better walk when the better deal is offered because it wont come again.
BONE
December 26th, 2009
7:14 pm
YEA BOYYYYYYYY
Big Ray
December 26th, 2009
7:16 pm
Ant Banks ,
I hate to disagree, man. But I laugh everytime somebody says “hey, if we drafted this or that guy, we wouldn’t have Horford (or Teague)”
I like Horford a lot, and Teague is another guy I like. But if you gave me the chance to go back in time and take CP3, Deron Williams, Brandon Roy (knowing what we know NOW), knowing that we wouldn’t be able to get Horford and Teague NOW? I’d go back and do it every time. All three guys are franchise-leading players. Much as we love them, can you say that about Horford or Teague? Just trying to be objective.
Even if we didn’t know what we do now, I’d still have drafted one of those guys. Not crying over spilled milk, but I just can’t agree. Seriously, man. CP3 or Deron playing next to JJ? Roy next to JJ? Wow.
Mychelfromatl
December 26th, 2009
7:17 pm
Lord,
All I want for Christmas is for the Hawks to bring this same energy and effort Tuesday/ Wednesday night. Please don’t make me regret not selling my seats for $600.
Amen.
Blast
December 26th, 2009
7:18 pm
Hawks came to play tonight.
BONE
December 26th, 2009
7:20 pm
Marvin good try lol
Big Ray
December 26th, 2009
7:23 pm
In any case, looks like we’re jumping all over Indiana. Best to enjoy the show and move along…
nunna yo biznezz
December 26th, 2009
7:27 pm
it looks like a 10 man rotation nite tonite..
if we only do this even when we’re playing from behind as well,i think this team would be doing a heck of a lot better..
defense and live hands are doing it with this team now,and if the starters get the rest they need and come 3rd quarter,look out!!
this game will be over by then if not by now the way they are playing..
Kiki
December 26th, 2009
7:30 pm
Josh and Horford came to play!!!
Mychelfromatl
December 26th, 2009
7:31 pm
Anybody know if Joe Smith will be back by Tuesday?
BONE
December 26th, 2009
7:33 pm
Ok we should be up 20 not 13
Melvin
December 26th, 2009
7:34 pm
Great 1st qtr by the Hawks. What’s not to like (in my Bill Walton voice)????
nunna yo biznezz
December 26th, 2009
7:36 pm
bone i’d say 2 more times if its garbage points..but if they are calling plays for marvin then 4 more times if he drives in the lane
hawkfan
December 26th, 2009
7:36 pm
yea, i want joe smith to play against his former team, especially if we win!!!
BONE
December 26th, 2009
7:38 pm
OK the hawks giving up pts now
Mychelfromatl
December 26th, 2009
7:39 pm
T.J. schoolin Teague. Take notes youngsta.
BONE
December 26th, 2009
7:39 pm
Everybody but Horford played Defense
Blast
December 26th, 2009
7:39 pm
Now we have a ballgame!
Bring back the starters!!!!
nunna yo biznezz
December 26th, 2009
7:40 pm
the hawks are running the offense thru crawford,and thats bad when u have a point guard on the floor..
we run no plays for mo evans..
and,no one is in postition under the hoop to rebound when the quick shots are being taken..
BONE
December 26th, 2009
7:41 pm
I meant everybody except Horford is not playing D
BONE
December 26th, 2009
7:44 pm
Now the pacers are hitting shots
Mychelfromatl
December 26th, 2009
7:44 pm
So I’m guessing unless Joe Smith plays Tuesday, we’re going with an 8-man rotation against Cleveland.
BONE
December 26th, 2009
7:47 pm
Damn marv lol
Blast
December 26th, 2009
7:47 pm
Hawks have stopped moving the ball.
Airball, Marvin!
niremetal
December 26th, 2009
7:54 pm
I’ve always thought that a player should be credited with an assist in a situation like that, where Horford made a great pass to Joe, Joe got to the line off a shooting foul as a direct result, and then hit free throws.
niremetal
December 26th, 2009
7:56 pm
Hawks Starters 45, Pacers Starters 12
Pacers Bench 21, Hawks Bench, 2
BONE
December 26th, 2009
8:01 pm
It’s so quiet u can hear roaches tapdancing
Melvin
December 26th, 2009
8:06 pm
Hawks bench 15+ mins, Pacers – 40+ mins…
BONE
December 26th, 2009
8:07 pm
The bench has been absolutely terrible
South ga boy in the atl
December 26th, 2009
8:08 pm
Doc not trying to slam chills, just trying to be like big Ray and be objective. I can’t fAult Chill’s for getting as much money as he can but there was no way a backup with the ugliest jump shot in the entire NBA was worth 6 mil a yr. If he was then Mo Evans should get about 10 mil a yr. At least Marvin is getting paid starter money and “potential” money. Chill’s had knotts on his head from bumping into his ceiling.
LL Cool Scott
December 26th, 2009
8:26 pm
Come on now, Billy Knight apologists… You’re defending the guy who passed on 2 of the top 15 players in the league in consecutive drafts. You can’t be serious when suggesting we’d be better off without Chris Paul and/or Brandon Roy. Try and be a little objective.
doc
December 26th, 2009
8:28 pm
south, problem is chills was playing important minutes at the end of games that marvin couldnt fill because he was a liability. we now have a 10 mil a yr no 6 man dont we? 6 mil for competence that marvin doesnt bring because he hasnt justifying salary gotten out of the gutter to begin to reach his ceiling is going in the wrong direction when it comes to.
BONE
December 26th, 2009
8:33 pm
whats with those alley oops to bibby
bigdave
December 26th, 2009
8:33 pm
lol @ Hansbrough
Mychelfromatl
December 26th, 2009
8:34 pm
Wooooowwwww Tyler
Is that what happens when whiteboys try to jam LMAO??!!!
Sorry I couldn’t resist, now I’m going to timeout.
Mychelfromatl
December 26th, 2009
8:37 pm
Damn Tyler’s balling now.
LL Cool Scott
December 26th, 2009
8:39 pm
Marvin and Hansbrough would be absolutely dominant in the WNBA.
Jody
December 26th, 2009
8:40 pm
LL Cool Scott,
Co-sign on 8:26 p.m. post.
Kiki
December 26th, 2009
8:41 pm
Some rest to the starters, please?
Ken Sugiura
December 26th, 2009
8:45 pm
Joe Smith is expected to practice when the team comes back from Indy. I’m not sure if that means he’ll play, but hopefully he will.
LL Cool Scott
December 26th, 2009
8:45 pm
HOLY CRAP! Josh is achingly close to the fabled “Cinco” tonight. One more block, steal, and assist and he’s got it.
BONE
December 26th, 2009
8:46 pm
Al is raping the pacers
Melvin
December 26th, 2009
8:47 pm
Hopefully Woody will play Teague extended mins in the 4th. If I’m not mistaken, Indiana is his home state…
Kiki
December 26th, 2009
8:49 pm
MVPs of this game so far: Josh and the undersized one!!!
Ken Sugiura
December 26th, 2009
8:50 pm
And, sorry, Benjamin. All of my English teachers – to say nothing of the copy desk at the paper – are lowering their heads in shame right now.
Ken Sugiura
December 26th, 2009
8:53 pm
Jamal seems to fall down a lot on jump shots.
Mychelfromatl
December 26th, 2009
8:58 pm
Teague needs to play the rest of this game, expecially if he’s gonna get any significant pt against Cleveland.
Melvin
December 26th, 2009
8:59 pm
Why is Hordford still in the game?????????
rms
December 26th, 2009
9:06 pm
Whats up with that Ken, Jamal falling down on his jump shots
Ken Sugiura
December 26th, 2009
9:07 pm
i’d say he’s looking for a foul. it generally doesn’t seem to work.
South ga boy in the atl
December 26th, 2009
9:13 pm
Doc. Didn’t quite understAnd some of that last post other than the “Marvin sux” part. It’s legitimate to ? Marvin s salary this yr but u have to see the end of the contract to see whether a guy has justified the money or not. Many times a guy is overpaid at the begining and underpaid at the end or vice versa. It all depends on the situation whether Marvin is in at the end of the game or not. When we need defense and more size to rebound then he is in at the end but if we are behind by 5 and need Jamal and Joe to be able to penetrate and bibby to kick to for a 3 to catch up then u see Jamal, Joe and bibby at the end. Can u honestly say that chill’s would be doing anything but riding the pine at the end of a game, on this team, all the time. And I stillhavent heard you say whether you would take him as a backup over Mo, especially for an extra 4 mil a yr. And I’m sorry I guess I have missed all those headlines of how chills is tearing up all of Europe in that glorifies D league that he plays in now. And I missed all the offers the Hawks recieved last offseason for the rights to chills. Oh that’s right there weren’t any. I guess teams aren’t lineing up to pay 6 mil to a backup rebounder with little to no scoring potential. If you want to make your case against Marvin then so be it but don’t tell me how everyone is pining away to have chills over Marvin. There may be a few Marvin haters but not to many who no how to judge the current and future potential of a NBA basketball player.
Melvin
December 26th, 2009
9:19 pm
How ironic, on a day where a Marvin/Chills debate developed, Marvin has a DNP-CD in the 4th qtr in a game where the other 4 starters played cruical mins in the 4th…
cp
December 26th, 2009
9:39 pm
Nice work by the starters. Horford and Josh went to work…..At what point do the Hawks think about moving Marvin? I’m sorry but year after year its the same excuses, he is young, he will improve, he just needs more touches, etc etc etc. At this point it looks like Marvin is what he is which is an avg small forward. Ive tried to hold out hope for him but I’m just not seeing it. I would easily take Chills over Marvin at this point. Hell give me Gerald Green over Marvin. I’m sure Gerald can score 10 points with those type of minutes and would be a lot cheaper. Its time to stop using his age as an excuse. Its guys who came out in the same draft and even later drafts that have surpassed him as far as production.
Wabe
December 26th, 2009
9:41 pm
Instead of having the size debate with Horford, we should be asking whether this team has a legit 3-man. Both Marvin/Mo Evans seem like rotational guys to me. Neither one of them seems to possess the abilities to play consistent roles on the floor. Both Marvin/Mo are asked to simply play their roles. Make the most of the opportunities given on the offensive end and play solid defense/rebound. Do you guys think either one does that on a high level consistently? A high enough level to be a legit starter?
I see this issue to be of greater concern than Horford’s size issue. We talk about Horford vs other dominant big men in the game today, but the league is also full of dominant wing-men that possess the ability to take over games. Does Marvin offer any advantages when matching up with the Pierce’s, Lebron’s, Melo’s? If he’s not a primary option on the offensive end, then he must possess the ability to be a lockdown defender at that position, but he doesn’t live up to that title.
I’m not trying to come off as a Marvin hater, but the 3 spot is one I feel we’re not getting enough production from this season. Marvin’s role is as simple as can be – knock down open looks (he sees plenty) and play solid defense. He’s definately a streaky shooter and isn’t a great defender. He’s good, but at the end of a tight game, who do you think is gonna be covering the hot hand? Marvin or JJ?
Marvin’s a role player. He’d be a much better fit coming off the bench. However, I don’t see Mo Evans as being the answer to plug into the starting lineup. I’m not calling for trades or moves to be made, but if anybody is to jump on a Hawks weakness, it’d be hard to look past the Williams/Evans combo at 3.
South ga boy in the atl
December 26th, 2009
9:41 pm
How ironic that people would take such a short sided view on a 23 yr old starting small forward in the NBA on a elite or near elite team. Oh no wait a minute the Marvin haters are the one talking about one game. Well there goes reason and any hope for objectiveness
Wabe
December 26th, 2009
9:42 pm
By the way, great game tonite. Did what we needed to do and got a W.
Big games coming up this week against those Cavs. Swept 4-0 last season in the playoffs. Hard to argue that the Hawks aren’t thinking of these next 2 as barometer games.
Jody
December 26th, 2009
9:48 pm
Question. Why is Marvin William’s age always used as an excuse when he plays poorly and that excuse is never used for Josh smith who pratically the same age? I’m not trying to hate, but it seems to continue to play the age card for a guy who has been in the league for 5 years now is a weak and lame excuse.
O'Brien
December 26th, 2009
9:53 pm
South ga boy in the atl,
As Melvin pointed out, Woody always played Chills at the end of close games. Not Marvin. That tells me that the coach has more confidence in Chills. And Marvin has a smooth jump shot, but what is he doing with it? Getting blocked in the lane, or going 1-4 like he did tonight?
Compared to Marvin, Chills has a higher avg (in points and rebounds), and is a career 52% shooter (36% from 3). Marvin is a career 45% shooter (31% from 3). I dont think Chills is worth $7.5 mil, and neither is Marvin. But all things being equal, I would take Chills.
As for the game tonight, I was disappointed that Teague was -21. What was he doing out there?
And for those who keep talking about Horford, all he does is go out and give you 25 pts, 19 rebs, and 5 blocks. If only we had a real center…
Great win Hawks.
Wabe,
After being blown out by Orlando last season, and in the preseason, the Hawks wanted to send Orlando a message. But instead, Orlando outscored the Hawks by 29 in the second half.
That being said, I’m with you. Lets beat Cleveland back to back, and let them know that we are legitimate contenders for best in the east.
South ga boy in the atl
December 26th, 2009
9:54 pm
Wane Now let me see you were talking about size and al but you would take chills who is 2 inches shorter than Marvin at the 3. Hmmmm. Doesn’t compute. I guess you Marvin haters would think that having 2 more top scorers on the Lakers would mean they would avg scoring 200 points a night. There is only one ball guys. You can only have so many guys averaging 15-20 points a night. Yes Marvin had a bad night but bibby had 8 points with probably more min than Marvin and where is the outrage.
Wabe
December 26th, 2009
10:05 pm
You obviously don’t get me man.
I didn’t mention anything about size when talking about Marvin. A couple of bloggers here often talk about our lack of size that Horford offers against other centers in the league. I simply said that fans should be more concerned with Marvin/Mo Evans inconsistent play at SF instead of talking about our lack of size.
I never mentioned anything about Chills. I’m simply suggesting that our SF’s play hasn’t been consistent. Neither Marvin/Mo are lockdown defenders, and neither one of them are the primary options on offense. We lack a “starter” at the 3.
Jody
December 26th, 2009
10:06 pm
According to pre-draft measurements, Josh Childress is 6′7.25″ with shoes and Marvin Williams is 6′8.25″ with shoes. Just sayin’.
Jody
December 26th, 2009
10:09 pm
Wabe,
As one who thinks the Hawks could use more help inside, I think you make an excellent point and it’s something to watch going forward into the offseason.
Melvin
December 26th, 2009
10:23 pm
South,
“How ironic that people would take such a short sided view on a 23 yr old starting small forward in the NBA on a elite or near elite team.”
To say we are taking a short view and than reference Marvin being 23yrs old, is like standing on both sides of the fence is it?????
Jody,
Good fine on the Marvin/Chill measurements, I would like to add that I saw both guys up close in person and I think they are close in height than the numbers. I guess if you measure Marvin flat on his stomach, you would get an extra inch b/c he like to stand with a slight tilt (hence, the duck reference)…lol
South ga boy in the atl
December 26th, 2009
10:25 pm
Wabe My bad if you weren’t talking about size ip front. I’ll try chill out, no pun intended lol. But dude I just don’t know wht you expect from Marvin at this early point in his career. For example, if you dropped LeBron in at the 3 on our team his points per game would drop by 7 or 8 because there is only one BALL. Is Marvin suppose to hog the ball the way jj does, according to so many on this blog, iso Marvin would cause some ppl to jump off the top of the atl s tallest buildings. Should he snatch the ball away from bibby and chuck 10 three s a game, should he move al off the blocks to call for the ball every time down. Every time he pulls A board should he mimick smoove and run the break himself and pull up for a jumper even if it’s a 2 on 4 break. Exactly which one of these manuevers would you have him do. As I said earlier, we have the 4th best offense in the league and still your complaining about not enough offense from Marvin. Again sorry bout the mis interpretation on ur earlier post. My bad on that.
Miss Horford
December 26th, 2009
10:34 pm
What a night for Josh & Al and all you can blog about is Marvin? What’s up with that? We all realize Marvin’s struggles to fit into our offense. We all realize Chills probably ain’t comin back. Props to Tyler for fighting hard.
Wabe
December 26th, 2009
10:37 pm
To be completely honest with you South GA, Marvin shows flashes, just can’t put it together. I get that he’s only 23, but I’m not buying into his “youngster” status anymore. There are plenty of young SF’s doing much more than Marvin’s done to this point in his career.
I hate to play the draft stock game, but look at what the Thunder have down there with Durant. Both Durant and Williams played one year in college and then jumped. Both were drafted #2 overall, but Durant is clearly ahead of Marvin at this point in his career. I hate to compare Marvin to an up and coming superstar in the league, doesn’t seem fair, especially judging him based on draft positioning. But, the point I’m stressing is there are other young SF’s in the league that are far beyond where Marvin is and they’ve spent less time in the league than he has.
Let’s just call it like we see it, he’s not a STUD. What hurts him is his draft positioning. The guy isn’t a bad player, just not a STUD. But, with the #2 pick comes expectations, and it’s fair to say he hasn’t lived up to them. I’d buy into the “he doesn’t get enough touches” argument if he made the most of the ones he’s got. But, he just doesn’t do that. He’s too streaky when it comes to shooting, and when attacking the basket, at times, it seems he has no intent to finish strong – just draw contact. He doesn’t completely lock people up on the defensive end, something that other SF’s have been payed to do in this league (Bowen/Battier). That leads me to think his role isn’t being fulfilled.
RLP
December 26th, 2009
10:44 pm
After nine games on Ken’s ten game prediction the Hawks have 7 wins and 2 losses. So anyone who predicted a 7-3 or 8-2 record is right on schedule.
doc
December 26th, 2009
10:50 pm
wabe, with a starting spot comes expectations especially when this is what the fourth year as a starter? marvin is not coming close to them. he is in a huge slump at both ends of the floor. no progress seen yet this year on a team that has to have organic growth. agree with the comments though this whole blog is beginning to look like rod won us over. i was pro marvin last year thinking he was growing, just dont see it thus far this year and have not sen him do what he did before his back went out on him.
RA
December 26th, 2009
10:52 pm
First off, I’m not an apologist for Marvin Williams. What I will say is that he averages more points a game than Lamar Odom, and the one thing that nobody talks about is the defense that he plays every night. What doesn’t show up in the box scores is that Marvin Williams draws some of the other teams toughest big men and holds his own with them on the defensive end of the floor and because he can stroke the three, they don’t dare leave him to help inside as much as they should. Now what that translates into is more touches and shots for Horford and Smoove. Truth, Marvin isn’t a “studd,” but does he need to be? We’ve got five or six players on this team that can burn a team for 20+ points on any given night. Do we really need Marvin to avarage 20 points himself or can other guys do it while he concentrates on defending, rebounding, and taking the shot when it’s there? I don’t know what people expected out of Marvin Williams and I don’t care, but what I can say is that over the years, there have been a lot of first and second picks over all that NEVER became studs, never even became good complementary pieces for that matter. Now, maybe Marvin will become a stud and maybe he’ll just be what he is now, a nice complementary piece on a good team, but either way, he’s a Hawk, and until he wears another uniform, I’m going to root for him. I’m sorry if some of you never will.
Big Ray
December 26th, 2009
11:14 pm
Another road win for the Hawks!
Hey, where’s everybody at? I expected to hear a million comments about that “non-center” we have, or about how the Pacers are a nobody team.
Hey, we won.
And I see that 25 points, 19 rebounds, and 5 blocks absolutely silences even the most ardent critics of our resident “non-center.” Heh…imagine that. Nice job, Big Al and Josh. Equally nice job by JJ and Jamal.
Tbird
December 26th, 2009
11:25 pm
To bad we don’t have a “real” center like Roy Hibbert!!! Cough! Cough!!
Big Ray
December 26th, 2009
11:28 pm
Wabe ,
Nice post. Narrow minds can’t see past their single mind-dominating thought: that Al Horford is not a real center. As you say, that is not only NOT the primary concern, it should be taking a back seat.
It’s funny, you go around the league and the national media, and what you hear about is Woody and how he does his job, what kind of decisions Josh makes on the court, and whether or not the Hawks have any true leader on the court, or whether they have an identity. You even hear about the Hawks needing another ice cold killer scorer. Not even once do you hear about Al Horford not being big enough. Guess none of those guys know what they’re talking about….
Whoever said Childress is shorter than Marvin is a little off. Draft Express has the measurements in their database. Marvin measured out as 6′7″ without shoes, and 6′8.25″ WITH shoes.
Josh Childress measured out 6′5.75″ without shoes, and 6′7.25″ WITH shoes. That’s a difference of one inch, for what it’s worth.
The real differences are in wingspan (Marvin’s is about 4-5 inches longer) and weight (Marvin is roughly 30-35 pounds heavier).
And considering what Marvin brings right now, I’d say Childress could duplicate it without a problem. He was doing it when he was with the Hawks. Either way, I don’t really care for this argument. Here is one more major difference, though. Chills was good enough with the ball in his hands that Woody had him bring the ball up the floor and initiate the offense many times. Marvin has not, and likely never will have that task. Chills is and was a more confident ball-handler.
Big Ray
December 26th, 2009
11:28 pm
LOL@ T-Bird…..so true!
Clyde
December 26th, 2009
11:40 pm
Little Ray Horford always has big games against weak frontlines. Lets see what he does when he has to go up against Shaq, Big Z and Varajao (or however you spell it).
AIN’T NOTHING CHANGED
FIRE WOODY
Fool Syrup
December 26th, 2009
11:40 pm
New Jersey Nets lose to Houston Rockets, Brook Lopez unable to stop 6′8 Carl Landry and 6′9 Luis Scola from scoring inside all night long. Landry finished with 26, Scola with 17. Anybody still want Lopez?
RLP
December 26th, 2009
11:42 pm
Controversy over Marvin:
If you look at Marvin’s career total’s I would say that his best season actually came during the 2007-2008 season. He played in 80 games starting each game he played. he set career marks in MPG (34.6), FG% (46.2%), SPG (1.0), and PPG (14.8). I was actually surprised by those numbers because my intuitive guess would have been that last year was his best season. But after seeing the actual figures I guess in retrospect that what I did like about last year was the way he started the season when he got off to a great start hitting 3 point shots. Until last year he had only taken 108 3 point shots and hit 25 for a career three point average of 23.1 %. Last year he took 155 and hit 55 or 35.5 % of those shots. That part of his game last year was a big improvement over what he had done previously. This year his attempts per game is down slightly but his 3 point percentage matches last years exactly.
So what I would say is that Marvin has had a higher burden placed on him by the coaching staff than any of our other young guys. In his fourth year in the league he was asked to change his playing style. Prior to last year he was not asked to play out on the wing and attempt three point shots. But last year he was and this year he is again been given that responsibility. His playing time has declined more than any other starter primarily because of the addition of Jamal Crawford who has taken time from his. A comparable example can be seen with ZaZa. With the addition of Joe Smith and the emergence of Al Horford, ZaZa’s MPG have declined from 19.1 MPG last year to 14.9 MPG this year. I do not think either of them are playing as well this year as they have in past years.
But the overall play of the team has improved in spite of the decline of these two players (and I suspect the same would be true of Mo Evans). What I think is exciting is that each of these players have demonstrated in past years that they have the capacity to play better. There are many of you who have pointed out that what happens during the regular season becomes irrelevant come playoff time. I am not sure I agree with that analysis but I do think that we should have more hope for the playoffs based on what has transpired so far this year. And I do not think this team’s growth has reached it’s peak yet. One reason is that these players have the potential to improve their performance between now and playoff time.
O'Brien
December 26th, 2009
11:44 pm
“What doesn’t show up in the box scores is that Marvin Williams draws some of the other teams toughest big men and holds his own with them on the defensive end of the floor and because he can stroke the three, they don’t dare leave him to help inside as much as they should” RA
What games are you watching? When the game is on the line, its JJ who guards the premier SF’s and SG’s. And Marvin gets a lot of open looks.
And ask 30 GM’s in the league if they would rather have Marvin or Odom, and see what the response is. Odom actually makes impact plays. Tell me one big play that Marvin made (besides the winning bucket in the NCAA championship game)?
Ray,
I would love to see Horford make the all star game this year (I think coaches and players will vote for him). People talk about defending the paint, but refuse to acknowledge the fact that defense starts on the perimeter (Bibby sucks defensively). Plus our switching defense is also inconsistent. But if we had a real center, all our problems would go way.
Horford averages almost 14pts and 10 rebounds per game, playing against guys bigger than him. But he never gets dominated (except for Howard, maybe).
Big Ray
December 26th, 2009
11:46 pm
Clyde ,
I knew you’d say that. So how’s ya boy Sean Williams doing? By the way, what do you define as a good front line? Horford had 18 and 10 against Denver, 16 and 11 against Minnesota, 11 and 13 against Portland, 12 and 13 against Boston, 15 and 10 against Portland the second time, 16 and 12 against Miami, shall I keep going? Double doubles each time.
So, uh….how’s ya boy Sean Williams doing?
It’s okay, ROLL TIDE ROLL, stick with what ya know…
Big Ray
December 26th, 2009
11:59 pm
RLP ,
You make some good points. Marvin has been asked to change his game here and there. Is it because he has the attitude and flexibility to do so where other do not, or is it because he doesn’t provide what the others do?
Also, you don’t know just how spot-on you are about Mo Evans. People were saying the guy is trash last year, but this year? Dude has NEVER looked better, if you ask me.
O’brien ,
I tell you what, it would be nice, but I know how this voting tends to go. Can you imagine the look on some people’s faces if he got the nod to the team, even if it was an injury replacement? Heh, heh, heh!
Where defense is concerned, you couldn’t possibly be more right. It’s aggravating as hell to repeatedly watch people blame Horford for not erasing all the mistakes made on the perimeter, or refuse to acknowledge the flaws of the switching defensive system, or the failure to execute it.
The nature of the switching defense is that it requires all five players on the floor to give the same effort at all times, and be able to guard multiple positions when/if necessary. Woody brought this system over from Detroit, but he just doesn’t have the same kind of players, which are essential to the success of the system.
Detroit won with that system because they had all of the players buying into that system, ALL THE TIME. And, they were all capable of doing it, both mentally and physically. Start at the top of the lineup and you see automatically how it can put guys in bad places, where they are unable to hold their own.
It all starts with the point guard, who must be able to guard his own position, switch over to a shooting guard and/or a small forward when it’s time to switch, and be able to hold on defensively until help comes, if it’s necessary. Billups was able to do it. Bibby never has been capable of such things.
If this system breaks down at the pg position, the whole system itself fails (as it does with Bibby, Jamal, and Teague), and you need a dynamic defender to erase all the chain reaction mistakes that come along with it. Simply put, Josh Smith is the chief reason that this defensive system works at all for the Hawks. Contrary to popular opinion, Horford is a secondary reason that it works, as he has on more than one occasion proven to be capable of staying in front of some perimeter players when forced to do so. Third (and almost tied for second) is Joe Johnson, who can switch to a straight up man-to-man defense and guard guys like Brandon Roy and Danny Grainger in the 4th quarter.
JeJe
December 26th, 2009
11:59 pm
We didn’t just pass on CP3, Deron, and Brandon Roy. Other players we took Marvin and Shelden over include: Danny Granger, Andrew Bynum, Rajon Rondo, Rudy Gay
Big Ray
December 27th, 2009
12:02 am
A “real center” would and could get just as lost in this system, as he could find himself switched onto an opponent that can exploit a mismatch, making the man look bad in the process. Need an example? Imagine playing a switch defense against Cleveland, and Horford getting stuck out on the perimeter, trying to defend Lebron. Sound bad? It would be worse if Horford was taller, bigger, and slower….all the things you find in a “real center.”
Here’s the kicker…I firmly believe that Detroit was successful with that system because they did NOT have a prototypical “real center.” They had the 6′11″ Wallace (most definitely a PF, not a center) and Ben Wallace (argue it how you want, but dude is 6′8″/6′9″, just like Horford).
Big Ray
December 27th, 2009
12:03 am
We didn’t just pass on CP3, Deron, and Brandon Roy. Other players we took Marvin and Shelden over include: Danny Granger, Andrew Bynum, Rajon Rondo, Rudy Gay.
Amen to that. Well, it’s all in the past now, though it always makes it back into the conversation anyway. And I think it will continue to do so, until the Hawks either win it all, or manage to get to a point where they consistently contend at the highest levels. Until then, re-hashing the past is how it goes.
Clyde
December 27th, 2009
12:06 am
Little Ray Sean Williams is sitting on the bench collecting a check. Kinda like Lorenzen Wright. I wouldn’t want to play anyway if I was on a team as bad as the Nets.
But speaking of Horford he had 6 and 9 against the Lakers and 2 and 9 against Orlando. These two teams were in the Finals last year and if we are striving for a championship shouldnt Al play his best against them?
DOUBLE DOUBLES EACH TIME ———–>FAIL
Fire Woody
Big Ray
December 27th, 2009
12:18 am
Clyde ,
Sounds like sour grapes to me. Sean Williams sucks if he can’t get PT on a bad team. A rookie took his job. Wait…he never had that job…
I agree. Horford should have better games against the best teams. I notice you skipped right over Boston, who won the championship a year ago and probably only got beat by Orlando because Garnett was out. As for Orlando and LA, Horford only got 3 shots against Orlando. Kinda hard to score well like that, eh? As for Orlando, he only got 8 shots, and he missed 5 of them. The five misses have no excuse, but when was the last time you saw somebody score big points with only 8 shots?
In both cases, Horford did decently on the boards. Like it or not, those are all the facts.
northcyde
December 27th, 2009
12:19 am
One big play by Marvin?
How about the 3-pointer in the corner with 2 seconds left in Nov. 2008 in the game @ Boston ( a game in which he went 4 – 4 from 3 point land ). Unfortunately “the truth” hit a shot at the buzzer over Horford to beat us.
RLP
December 27th, 2009
12:32 am
A quote from the writeup of the game at ESPN:
O’Brien was frustrated.
“We’ve been preparing for it [Atlanta's switches] for two days and it never registered with our players that the whole switching you spent Christmas Eve and this morning, talking about it in pregame and during timeouts and then acting like we were surprised they were switching,” O’Brien said. “So I don’t have an answer for that.”
I’m sure that will add to the never ending debate about the Hawks switching defense.
Nothing much is said on this blog about the Hawks defense having an effect on their offense but again ESPN’s story had this quote:
“We’ve just been playing hard defensively and it’s translate into easy baskets,” Johnson said. “Everybody’s been unselfish, we’ve just been out there running hard and it’s showing that we’re maturing as a team.”
Finally, I am surprised that no one has really commented on the job Jeff Teague did or did not do defensively against T.J. Ford. My observation is that I thought Jamal Crawford did a better job than Teague. I noticed that when Bibby was in with Ford on the floor that Crawford was assigned to guard Ford.
RLP
December 27th, 2009
12:36 am
I was keeping an eye on the Kings vs. the Lakers and the Kings were up late in the fourth quarter. But then the next I looked the Lakers had a lead of several points and I thought the game was over. But right now the game has gone to OT and the Kings are ahead by Seven with 2.39 left to play!
northcyde
December 27th, 2009
12:39 am
RLP . . . the switching defense is quickly becoming the “Woody defensive system”, even though other coaches have done it in the past ( namely Larry Brown with the Pistons ). But let Hawk fans tell it, the switching defense is the worse thing since the movie Showgirls [ starring Jesse ( Elizabeth Berkley ) of Saved by the Bell ]
As for Teague, he is NOT a good man defender yet. Not by a long shot. Crawford is bad, but so is Teague. It’s his lack of defense that’s keeping him off the floor, more than anything else. But people believe that Woody should just give him 15 minutes a night, just for the heck of it.
No way. Not when you have Bibby and Crawford ( bad defensive players, but pretty good offensive players), who can play the point.
Let the rookie sit and learn. Play him spot minutes at best, unless the game is close or the game is a blowout.
Kiki
December 27th, 2009
12:42 am
It’s amazing how people still find ways to attack “the undersized one” after a performance like tonight’s: 19 rebounds, 5 blocks against a much taller front line. Damn!!
RLP
December 27th, 2009
12:47 am
Lakers come back to tie game 101-101 on a tip-in by Pau Gasol with 0.3 second left on the clock.Second OT starting.
northcyde
December 27th, 2009
12:59 am
I just hope all of these people that love to complain about the Hawks, go to the home games ( especially if they live within 45 minutes of Philips Arena ). I know some do. The team needs your revenue at the gate, to keep a winning product on the floor.
RLP
December 27th, 2009
1:02 am
It looks like the Lakers will win in the second OT. They are ahead by 8 with 40.5 seconds left. Oh well.
nunna yo biznezz
December 27th, 2009
5:46 am
i watched the game last night,and i saw crawford getting faked out bad on 1 drive by ford and teague in fords hip pocket most of the night but ford still made shots over him..
hey ken,if u get a chance the next time your around woody,can u bring this question up to him??
my reason for this question is this,last year,he sent othello hunter and thomas gardner(bench players who got no playing time during the season) to the DLEAGUE to get playing time(and i know that teague is getting some minutes but not a lot unless we are blowing teams out)..
so the question would be:
Has he or the coaching brass thought about letting TEAGUE get playing time in the DLEAGUE,to work more on his defense??
And if not,what would be the benefits of him staying here to just watch,learn,and get some playing time compared to him watching,learning,and getting increased playing time altogether in the DLEAGUE??
now i know the one answer might be is that our DLEAGUE affiliate,the utah flash,might not play a switching defense,so with that being said if it is his answer,the follow up would be,
“where does he see or think teagues knowledge of the hawks defensive concept/scheme,and what exactly are the areas of concern and percentage wise does teague needs to work on to fulfill woody’s mind that he needs to actually be at now?”
nunna yo biznezz
December 27th, 2009
5:48 am
ERROR IN MY QUESTION..
it should be,
where does he see or think teagues knowledge of the hawks defensive concept/scheme NOW,and what exactly are the areas of concern and percentage wise does teague needs to work on to fulfill woody’s mind that he needs to actually be at now?”
nunna yo biznezz
December 27th, 2009
6:06 am
ERROR IN MY QUESTION PART 2!!
IM TRYING TO RUSH,I HAVE TO GO TO WORK..
IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN:
WHERE DOES HE SEE OR THINK TEAGUES KNOWLEDGE OF THE HAWKS DEFENSIVE CONCEPT/SCHEME IS AT RIGHT NOW??
AND WHERE IS HE PERCENTAGE WISE COMPARED TO WHERE U THINK HE NEEDS TO BE AT??
AND,THIS IS ONLY IF U THINK OF IT OR EVEN HAVE THE CHANCE TO ASK HIM THOSE QUESTIONS..
AND,LET HIM KNOW,HE NEEDS TO HAVE A COACHING SHOW SO THAT THE FANS CAN ASK HIM SOMETHING DIRECTLY..
THE ASSISTANTS CAN ONLY GO SO FAR WITH THEIR TIME AFTER GAMES..
RA
December 27th, 2009
7:09 am
From Je-Je
“We didn’t just pass on CP3, Deron, and Brandon Roy. Other players we took Marvin and Shelden over include: Danny Granger, Andrew Bynum, Rajon Rondo, Rudy Gay.”
Okay, no, we don’t have any of those guys, but let’s take a hard look at those TEAMS shall we.
Deron Williams Utah Jazz: 17-13
Patrick Roy Portland Trail Blazers: 20-12
Rudy Gay Memphis Grizzles: 13-16
Chris Paul New Orleans: 13-15
Danny Granger Indiana Pacers: 9-19
Rajon Rondo Boston Centics: 23-5*
Andrew Bynum LA Lakers: 24-5*
*The Celtics have three other guys by the name of Pierce, Allen, and Garnette, any one or all of which may end up in the hall of fame. I hope some can see how that could make things a little easier for you if you’re a point guard. And as far as I’m concerned, the way Rondo went after Chris Paul after he got his contract extension was utterly classless. He’s a punk and it would turn my stomach to see him in a Hawk uniform. (Btw, after all those guys are retired or past their primes, Rondo’s going to have a ball trying to back up all that talk that he’s doing now…)
*Bynum is a good player, but there’s another guy on that team, goes by the name of Kobe. So…
Now, maybe it’s early and I haven’t had my coffee yet, but it seems to me like the Hawks record is better than most of the other clubs listed above and isn’t that the bottom line? Shouldn’t it be? I mean for years, I’ve had to hear fans gripe about not getting this one or that one and what should have happened in the draft. Well you know what, it didn’t. The Hawks don’t have Chris Paul, they don’t have Deron Williams, or any of the other guys that got named off. What they do have is ball club that’s gone 21-8 over the first quarter of this season. After the last ten years, I’ll take that team. The rest of you can root for New Orleans, Memphis, or wherever the players you wanted happen to be playing.
O’brien, you can quote me as much as you like, but I’m usually more right than wrong. Marvin is a good defender. I’ve seen a lot of good ones and I’ve seen a lot of bad ones, and he’s better than some. The truth is that the Hawks switch out, they a lot, and Marvin does his share of defending the tough takes in the league, and I can count the times on one hand that I’ve seen him get eaten alive by anyone. But hey, what do I know, I’m just a fan. Lamar Odom is an impact player, no doubt about it, but again, and this is the point that I’m trying to make, does Atlanta need Williams to be an impact player? Do we really need another 20 point scorer or a nice complementary piece that all championship teams have. I’m sorry folks but all five starters aren’t going to average 20 points or more over the course of a season. The shots have to go somewhere and they have to come from somewhere. But like I said, they’re my team, and I’ll take them. You don’t have to.
Fory Valley Chevy Rider
December 27th, 2009
7:34 am
MARVIN WILLIAMS SUCKS!!!!!
HORFORD IS GREAT BUT SHOULD BE AT PF!!!!
WE WILL GET DOMINATED BY ORL OR CLE BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF A REAL CENTER.
THE END.
Fort Valley Chevy Rider
December 27th, 2009
7:34 am
TRADE MARVIN FOR A REAL CENTER!!!
RA
December 27th, 2009
7:54 am
Fort Valley Chevy Rider,
You are so eloquent. Have you ever thought of writing poetry. It must be your true calling.
RA
December 27th, 2009
7:55 am
And for the record, I haven’t seen anything out of any of the “big three” that leads me to believe that they are capable of dominating Atlanta or each other.
doc
December 27th, 2009
8:33 am
jeje, i questioned not taking bynum at the time. it may be knight didnt think his butt was big enough. we needed a project but needed someone to start right away on the budget we had was my take so they looked the other way. based on the time it took to develop him and his injury record it probably was the best choice since dollars were so limited during the fiasco ownership of the basg period.
terrell barron
December 27th, 2009
9:51 am
25 and 19? Too small to play center my ass.
Justahawkfan
December 27th, 2009
10:21 am
If some so called fans find a gold bar lying on the ground you would probably complain it was too heavy and too shinny. 21 and 8. Please!!!!!
Sautee
December 27th, 2009
10:29 am
Truth-Serum
December 23rd, 2009
7:12 pm
“The answer is blocks
The question is what is a major tool used in protecting the middle.”
“mystery, where is horford the center?”
He’s right there where we want him to be. And he blocked FIVE shots against the Pacers.
As of right now, the Hawks are 5th in the league in blocks which is better than Boston, Cleveland, LAL, Denver AND Orlando.
That’s right, in using that “major tool to protect the middle” the Hawks are BETTER than all of the elite teams they are vying with. Here’s the link:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=teamstatmisc&sort=blks&league=nba&season=2010&seasontype=2&avg=pg&order=true&split=0
RLP
December 27th, 2009
10:47 am
I know that the current 10 game prediction cycle still has one game remaining before a winner is decided but I just realized that I will be out of town visiting my son and his family. I will leave either Tuesday after my wife gets off work or early Wednesday morning. I will be returning home the following Monday. So if I do not present my predictions early I will not be a party to the next round of predictions. So I am going to make an assumption that Ken will again call on us to make predictions with the same guidelines as he used in the last two rounds of this little game.
Here are my predictions:
12/30 @ Cleveland – Lose
01/01 New York – Win
01/04 @ Miami – Lose
01/06 New Jersey – Win
01/08 Boston – Win
01/09 @ Orlando – Lose
01/11 @ Boston – Lose
01/13 Washington – Win
01/15 Phoenix – Win
01/18 Oklahoma City – Win
Overall Prediction
Win = 6
Lose = 4
For the third part of my prediction I predict that Jeff Teague’s MPG will decline and that he will average about 8 minutes per game over this series of games.
I am looking forward to the Cleveland game to see how I came out of the last ten game set. I was entirely too optimistic during the first round predicting a 9 win 1 loss scenario while the team actually went 7-3.
For the current series I have been dead on so far predicting every game correctly. I predicted that the Hawks would lose the final game against the Cavaliers so if I am right I will be in the running for first in the game. But my third prediction is weak (I predicted that Jeff Teague’s minutes would increase overall but that on the road there would be three games where he would not play in the second half.) and I think there were several others who made exactly the same predictions I did on the record so I do not expect to win even if the team loses to the Cavaliers because someone else will get more points for their third prediction. However, I hope someone who predicted a 8-2 record during this series will win the contest.
Before the month began I actually submitted a posting in which I predicted how the Hawks would do for the entire month of December. In that posting I nailed every game they have played so far except for four. I predicted the Hawks would defeat the Knicks and lose to Dallas. I also predicted the Hawks would defeat Chicago but lose to Utah. On that post I actually predicted the Hawks would defeat Cleveland at home and lose in Cleveland. If that is how it plays out then my won loss total of 10 and 4 for the month will be exactly right even if the individual game predictions were off.
Also during this 10 game series I changed my mind after the fact and posted a blog stating just before the Chicago game that I thought my prediction of a loss in Chicago would be wrong.
I have decided not to submit a monthly prediction for January. I like Ken’s idea of a ten game stretch much better than a monthly prediction because that allows you to make adjustments as more information is gained from the games played during the previous ten game stretch.
I may be able to use my son’s computer to check in during the time I will be out of town but I do not have a lap top so any posting I do will be with my son’s forbearance. I look forward to seeing how this contest ends and to the beginning of a new one.
Sautee
December 27th, 2009
10:49 am
Last night Horford had his 15th double-double in 29 games. Last year he had 20 in 67 games. Yet there are those who say he has “peaked”. Strange, eh?
Is #0 the future for running the point
December 27th, 2009
11:06 am
Is Jeff Teague the future for running the point for the hawks. The kids has great ball skills and can drive. Unfortunately, even with development over the next few years, I don’t see him as an outide shooter or a guy that will finish at the rim. He is no AI. The impact rookies in this league come in and make the mark immediately, regardless of the situation, i.e. Al Horford, Rose etc
Wanted to get some feedback here.
terrell barron
December 27th, 2009
11:27 am
Teague can finish at the rim. Wtf? And what have you seen to make you think his shot wont improve? We need a pg “who with great ball skills and can drive.” When we resigned Bibby and brought in Crawford, we all knew he would’nt come in and make his mark immediately. GIVE HIM SOME TIME. Remember, everyone wanted to trade Josh Smith after last year???? That would’ve been a horrible move. Thank God, Philly wanted old, worn down Elton Brand. lol!!
ILL-logical
December 27th, 2009
12:22 pm
Great road win. The current debate about Al and Marvin and ther respective values to the team raises an interesting-at least to me- conjecture:
What if Woodson at the end of last season’s try out between Kwame Brown and Randolph Morris said let’s improve Morris’s value to the team and its future by hiring a big man coach/ consultant. In other words develop him last year to where he is today.
What could have been a reasonable outcome from those actions? A front line of Josh,Randolph and Al with Jamal and joe in the backcourt. Marvin and Bibby coming off of the bench like Eddy house and Mikal Pietrus.
With a full season to work out the kinks, this line up would obviate the need to trde for a 5 and still allow Teague to develop at a measured pace.Heft,height and skill; what could have been.
Ken Strickland
December 27th, 2009
12:41 pm
Those who say they’d take CP3, DWilliams or BRoy over Horford seem to be overlooking two key factors.
First, BRoy was considered a duplication of JJ at the time, and they were correct. Both players need the ball in their hands to be effective, and we’ve already noticed JJ has had some issues with Crawford. However, those issues seem to have disapated somewhat, along with a reduction of Crawford’s acoring, impact and number of shots taken.
Secondly, you all seem to forget the WOODY FACTOR, and his issues with having young PG’s run his team. You also have to realize the PG requirements for running his OFF would very likely limit the talents of both CP3 or DWillims, especially CP3, let alone the fact they very likely would have gotten the ALaw treatment.
TRUTH SERUM-I’ve noticed that whenever I ask you a question, especially a series of questions, you completely ignore the question(s) and delve into this tired act about me following in your footsteps with some sort of treatment and confinement. Recently, you’ve responded by reposting the same BS verbatim.
I’ll give you another opportunity to see what you can come up with.
QUESTION #1-Other than DHoward, name another so called true center that’s outperformed Horford in head to head competition?
QUESTION #2-Of the so called true centers with higher RPG and BPG, how many have outrebounded, outblocked or dominated him physically in head to head competition?
You mentioned Shaq in favorable terms, and you obviously consider him a true center and someone that would better suit the Hawks at that position. Well, over the last 7gms, here’s what you get from Shaq, and I added Ilgouskas for good measure, since he’s a so called true center as well. SHAQ/ILGOUSKAS(TOTAL)
PPG-7.6/9.5(17.1), RPG-6.14/5.4(11.54), BPG-1.14/.86(2), SPG-.43/.29(.72) & APG-1.29/.71(2).
HORFORD-PPG-16.7, RPG-11.6, BPG-1.6, SPG-.71 & APG-2.14.
Let’s see how you, and any of the other proponents of HE’S NOT A TRUE CENTER, or HE’S PLAYING OUT OF POSITION or HE’S A NATURAL PF, or HE’S UNDERSIZED, have to say about his recent improvement and ability to become a dominant type center.
AHORFORD, THE STARTING CENTER FOR THE ATLANTA HAWKS, IS PUTTING UP NUMBERS ACROSS THE STAT SHEET THAT’S EQUAL TO OR BETTER THAN CLEVELAND’S TOP 2 CENTERS COMBINED. This argument is as stupid as the one that claims Egypt as a European rather than an African civilation, then follows that BS up with Greece being the first European civilization.
RLP
December 27th, 2009
12:55 pm
Is #0 the future for running the point:
Your inquiry is interesting. I disagree with you somewhat regarding the assertion that stars coming into the league make an immediate statement. I do so only because of young guys such as Kobe and Josh who take some time to mature before really having an impact. Kobe averaged 7.6 PPG in his rookie year and played 15.5 MPG. Josh averaged 9.7 PPG and played 27.7 MPG. But I am sure there are many who came into the league with a bit more experience who did have more of an immediate impact on the game. And I am sure there will be some who reply to your question and cite some of those players.
I also remember Dominique Wilkins coming into the league showing the ability to sky to the rim immediately but it was not until he developed an outside shooting touch that his game really took off.
So from my perspective I do think Teague has the potential to become the PG of the future for this team. He may be flawed but then again almost every player has flaws. He could also wind up as a disappointment. How many draft choices have failed to reach stardom because the draft is an imperfect way to judge talent. Witness Sheldon Williams as one example.But also remember that Doc Rivers was a second round selection and he had a pretty nice career in the NBA.
Fort Valley Chevy Rider
December 27th, 2009
1:02 pm
According to some of yall, the hawks have no flaws…we have all we need…yet we still havent gotten over the hump. This team has maxed out. Who gives a flying flip about what Horford or anybody did against the lowly Pacers. Lets see this team do it against ORL and CLE, then I’ll believe you.
Dudes on here love to gloat about performances against teams like the Pacers and Bulls. Pathetic.
Fort Valley Chevy Rider
December 27th, 2009
1:03 pm
Wow the Hawks MUST be on the right path because they beat a below .500 team!!!!
northcyde
December 27th, 2009
1:28 pm
Fort Valley . . . seriously. Maxed out? Says who?
This was the contention before the season started, when people didn’t think the Hawks could win more than 52 or so games. That these guys couldn’t take their games to the next level. But lo and behold, we’re sitting at 21 – 8, 1/2 game behind the mighty Magic.
If “maxed out” means that the Hawks win 62 games ( because that’s the pace we’re on ), then I’ll take that any day of the week.
FYI: We’re 6 – 2 against the current top 8 in the West . . . and 4 – 2 against the current top 8 in the East.
O'Brien
December 27th, 2009
1:39 pm
RA,
I’m a big fan of the Hawks, and as a result, I will root for Marvin. And I agree that the Hawks dont need much from Marvin. And thats why part of my issue is with Sund. Why give him $7.5 mil as the 6th option? Does his play live up to that salary? I dont think it does. And as long as JJ, Crawford, Josh and Al are here, Marvin will be no more than a 5th option.
Its not all Marvin’s fault, but I just dont know if he has it in him to be the player the Hawks envisioned him to be. I hope he makes me eat my words though, because that would mean great things for the Hawks.
cdog
December 27th, 2009
1:42 pm
CAN’T WAIT TO SEE THE HAWKS STOMP BIG CHILDISH LEBRON JAMES BACK TO BACK. WATCH OUT FOR THE OFFICIATING IN THESE TWO GAMES.I HOPE WOODSON AND THE HAWKS STAY ON THEM.THE HAWKS TEAM IS BETTER BUT ACCORDING TO THE OFFICIALS, THE HAWKS ARE SUPPOSE TO LOSE. THAT WON’T HAPPEN. THE HAWKS WILL SWEEP THE CAVS BACK TO BACK.
Rod from College Park
December 27th, 2009
2:08 pm
You Marvin supporters are hilarious. I’m done trying to explain how terrible he is. Keep waiting on him to improve. Maybe when he is 30 and has been in the league 13 years, you will stop talking about how young he is. He did the same thing Durant and Melo did and they were and are much better players than Marvin. Have you ever considered that he is the 6th option because he has proved that he is no better than the 6th option? I stated it two years ago, last year, and I will say again that Marvin and the 3 position is one of the most important positions on this team. Especially in the east with Pierce and Lebron. If we continue to put a team on the floor where those guys don’t even have to check Marvin, we will not beat them. Doc and O’Brien, glad to see that you both are seeing what I saw a long time ago. It is not about being a hater, it’s about knowing a good basketball player when you see one. Marvin looks good walking into the gym, but that’s about it. Chill’s was a much better player than Marvin, and actually was one of the main reasons that we played Boston so well in that playoff series. I would much rather have Chills than Marvin. At this point I honestly think Jerry Stackhouse would bring much more to the table than Marvin. The 3 position will need to be addressed if we plan on really being competitive in the playoffs. Steven Jackson was the move we should have tried to make.
Rod from College Park
December 27th, 2009
2:21 pm
O’Brien,
Trust me, he won’t become anything more than he is now. He skill set is limited, and he can’t shoot with a hand in his face. It really is very basic. He is a good jump shooter, but can’t shoot when pressured. He always goes right, has no handles, can’t change direction while dribbling, can’t post up or finish strong. He is not aggressive, and can’t defend any other position but the 3. He actually is only an average defender. He is clumsy and very uncoordinated. Although he is 6′9 he plays smaller. When playing the Hawks, leave him wide open and focus all your defensive effort on stopping Joe Johnson. His strong suits are rebounding and free throw shooting. That’s the scouting report, and I doubt it will change much throughout his career.
Melvin
December 27th, 2009
2:50 pm
Look who Hoopsworld said was the best NBA trade of the summer…
http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=14767
O'Brien
December 27th, 2009
4:33 pm
Thanks for the link Melvin.
“I knew I could really help there,” he explained. “One of our biggest strengths is our depth and being able to wear down other teams. For me it wasn’t hard. I knew I could still be who I am, and it’s more important who finishes the game than who starts it.” said Crawford.
Thats awesome. (Which is exactly why Woody would have Chills in the game at the end, not Marvin).
I hope the Hawks can afford to resign JJ though, because having him and Crawford on the team is awesome. And that will also take some of the pressure off Teague.
JeJe
December 27th, 2009
4:39 pm
LOL @ RA.
Wow
“What I will say is that he averages more points a game than Lamar Odom, and the one thing that nobody talks about is the defense that he plays every night. What doesn’t show up in the box scores is that Marvin Williams draws some of the other teams toughest big men and holds his own with them on the defensive end of the floor and because he can stroke the three,”
1) Odom doesn’t start
2) Marvin can stroke the 3? I see him make 1 jumpshot a game, maybe 2.
The guy is as good now as he’ll ever be. He is not a star in this league, nor does he have potential to get better. I’ve said for the last 5 !@$%ing years the guy would average 18 ppg and have MIP potential, but no. He is a 6″9 athletic wing with Pippen-like wingspan, but he sucks. His defense isn’t even that great. Plus he is one hit away from being out 3 months, since every time someone touches him, he is on the ground. We’re better off starting Mo Evans and getting a guy like Ryan Anderson or JJ Redick to come in with J-CRAW off the bench.
Hell, I’d take Matt Barnes, Ryan Anderson, Redick, Vince, Pietrus, and Brandon Bass all OVER Marvin.
He is NOT going to get better, people. I am pretty sure he’s had 1 good game all year (Houston).
Someone correct me, please
northcyde
December 27th, 2009
4:44 pm
If Bibby is the offensive “glue guy”, Marvin is the defensive “glue guy”.
Don’t get me wrong. JJ is our most important offensive player, and Smoove is our most important defensive player. But Bibby and Marvin are the “glue guys” on offense and defense respectively.
On offense, Bibby gives us that dual pass and shoot threat that keeps the offense stable on most nights.
On defense, Marvin gives us a 6-9 guy who can guard on the perimeter or the inside when we employ our switches, and go on the inside to grab defensive rebounds.
Until his midrange jumper comes back to him, that’s the role Marvin plays on this team. His length and athleticism makes our switching defense that much stronger.
northcyde
December 27th, 2009
5:12 pm
When the Minnesota Timberwolves made their run to the WC Finals 6 years ago, this was their starting lineup.
PG – Sam Cassell
G – Trenton Hassell
G/F – Latrell Spreewell
PF – Kevin Garnett
C – Ervin “not Magic” Johnson
After losing in the first round for 7 consecutive years, this was the main lineup that carried them to the WC Finals in 2003 – 2004.
Why?
They were highly efficient on offense because they basically let their Big 3 ( KG, Cassell, and Spree ) take almost 60% of the team’s shots. Because unlike teams in the past, this squad was also a DEFENSIVE ballclub.
Starters Ervin Johnson and Trenton Hassell averaged 1.9 pts and 5 pts respectively. But they were the “glue guys” of the T-Wolves defensive scheme.
EJ was able to effectively guard centers and big men for 18 – 20 minutes a game as a starter, keeping KG out of foul trouble against the other team’s first unit. Hassell was able to guard 2s and 3s, allowing Spreewell to almost strictly concentrate on offense. EJ flat out sucked as an offensive player, while Hassell could hit a midrange jumper every now and then, but never really looked to shot the ball.
I’ll still contend that Marvin is merely in a bad shooting slump right now . . one of the worst in his career actually.
But he does still have value to this team on the defensive end of the floor . . . even if he doesn’t accumulate gaudy stats. When he needs defense, Woody knows that Marvin needs to be on the floor to make his switching defense work. If Crawford is hot though, he’ll opt to go with Jamal, and let the offense extend the lead or get us back into the game.
JeJe
December 27th, 2009
5:23 pm
can someone please explain to me why Bibby feels he has to be so muscular? His only offense on this team is taking jumpshots. He is so big that he has no speed or athleticism anymore. I understand he’s getting old, but why not try get skinnier and look like he did in 2002? he is way too big to be a quick point guard for him.
NO, WHATEVER SMART ALLICK, PLEASE DON’T TELL ME OUR RECORD. I KNOW WE ARE 22-8. U DONT HAVE TO FREAKING TELL ME OUR RECORD.
The point is, he can be so much quicker and athletic than he is now. He isn’t posting up guards or penetrating the lane much, so why not lose weight?
Sautee
December 27th, 2009
6:27 pm
Truth-serum,
You have stated the you personally believe Al Horford is as good as he’s going to get, but ignore the fact of his 15 double-doubles in 29 games this year, next to 20 double-doubles in 67 games last year. Explain please how that’s not an upward curve?
You’re slanted view of his stats keeps you from noticing that while the numbers themselves aren’t hugely higher, the PERCENTAGES are.
For example you make fun of his 2.5 point increase (11.5 to 14.0) without seeing that it’s 21.7% HIGHER than last year. When you were defending Woodson you talked a lot about the kind of return and increase he had in wins, and how in the business world, he would be praised for that return. Well how about a 21.7% increase in production? Wouldn’t that be highly praised in the business world?
By the way, here’s a quote from Mike Woodson:
“I have to get him more touches,” said Woodson. “If we can get Al at about 12 or 13 points and double digit rebounds…then we’re talking.”
As of today: 14.0 pts, 9.9 reb. Horford is playing exactly like his coach expects him to. So why is that not good enough for you?
Last year you criticized Horford’s shooting %, saying it was too low for a center.
This year Al has raised his shooting % from .525% to .590%, which is a 12.4% increase. How would THAT be in the business world? But do we hear one word from you? No, it’s all “there’s not much change between this year and last”
And, once again, if Horford’s stats are “derived from other power forwards playing center”, then why even post that list of shot blockers since the VAST MAJORITY of those stats were when they were up against those same “other power forwards playing center”? Somehow Horford’s stats alone are discredited?
Only if you are a hater.
And I still don’t understand how you incessantly defend Woodson, yet TOTALLY disagree with HIS CHOICE for center on his roster. Makes NO sense unless your defense of Woodson is a lie. Because you CAN’T have it both ways. Either you back Woodson totally or you do not. If you DON’T back him totally then WTF is all the nonsense you give Ken Strickland?
I’m sure, knowing you, that you’ll dodge these questions and try mightily to change the subject. Good luck with that.
Melvin
December 27th, 2009
6:54 pm
Sautee,
You are on Fire….
Jody
December 27th, 2009
7:32 pm
Marvin Williams is defenitely a solid defender, but to be honest, Josh Smith is the glue guy defensively for this team. Not only is he the leader of the this team defensively, but he is also the guy that holds everything together on the defensive end (as evidenced by the game against the Knicks and every other game in recent times the Hawks have played without him).
Ken Strickland
December 27th, 2009
7:36 pm
SAUTEE-BRAVO MY FRIEND, BRAVO!
Also, I’ve noticed that a large number of those consistently complaining about Marvin are also Woodson supporters. Since there hasn’t been a single negative comment from Woodson about Marvins overall play, especially his struggles on OFF, why haven’t any of you complained about WOODSON’S DECISION to continue starting and playing him significant mins?
richbrave
December 27th, 2009
7:40 pm
doc
December 25th, 2009
9:01 am
rb miss your energy but i know it is hard to keep up with it all. peace bro, happy holiday my friend.
merry christmas all, make it a love fest today … just because
Catch me over on the O’BRIEN side with the BRAVES. I’m there year ’round.
kwooden1
December 27th, 2009
7:48 pm
Coming to the party late, but great road win by the HAWKS last night. I’m glad they weren’t looking ahead to the Cleveland games, they just took care of business.
My first point for the Cleveland game is, “Will Joe Smith Play?” We need another big body for that game, so I anticipate we will see some Collins if Joe Smith is a no go. I can understand Woodson playing Morris over Collins the past few games, but clearly that was because Collins is a vet and didn’t need the reps. I would hope that Joe Smith is available and healthy because we can use he’s outside shot.
My second point is Bibby and Crawford have to play good defense on Moe Williams. Cleveland struggles when they don’t have a second scorer. West has been struggling, so Williams is definitely the one to look out for.
My last point is PUSH THE BALL. This is the game that Horford and Smoove and really expose Cleveland’s lack of speed at the center and PF positions. I haven’t been tracking Cleveland to much this season but it looks like they’ve gotten the message already. Varejao is on the bench and Hickson has taken his place. Doesn’t matter, because Horford is faster than any center they bring in the game, even if they play Varejao at center.
GO HAWKS!!!
Blast
December 27th, 2009
8:03 pm
Melvin,
Read the link, but it only affirms what I repeated in Sekou’s last blog. The Jamal Crawford trade for a bag of chips is going to be the biggest acquisition this season. Not Shaq, not Vince, not Turk, because we already know what those guys can do. No one has seen the impact Jamal can have on a winning team yet. He will be HUGE come playoff time.
Big Ray
December 27th, 2009
8:24 pm
Rod from College Park ,
Does this…
You Marvin supporters are hilarious. I’m done trying to explain how terrible he is.
…mean that you aren’t going to post anymore? Just curious, because besides whatever redundant stuff you have to say about Marvin….well, I just can’t remember any other insight on the Hawks from you at all. You say you’re tired or you’re done trying to explain your point of view. Pardon me if I just don’t quite believe it.
RA ,
Give me a break. I don’t have particular issues with Marvin, he is what he is. I had MAJOR issues with Sheldon. Comparing the teams of the players we DIDN’T draft is way off the cuff. Yes, I know Chris Pauls’s team sucks right now. So does Rudy Gay’s (though they’re getting better, and quickly). Brandon Roy’s team looks pretty good, though.
But all of that is besides the point. We’re talking about how those players would perform on OUR team, not on their present teams. Otherwise, you’d also have to compare GMs, owners, payroll, etc.
Ken Strickland ,
I’m past the Woody factor when it comes to clear talent. Woody didn’t hold Al Horford back. I seriously doubt he could make Chris Paul not be Chris Paul. Guys with supreme talent and supreme confidence do well. Guys without it could go either way. Horford was one of those guys. Woody has even gone so far to say that with Horford’s fundamentals and instincts, he didn’t even coach him like a rookie. I really think that the poise CP3 and Deron Williams showed with their coaches (neither Byron Scott nor Jerry Sloan have much patience for foolishness, and both are harder than Woody), would have disappeared with Woody. I really saw them as being that good, and they’re showing it even now.
Big Ray
December 27th, 2009
8:28 pm
Ken Strickland ,
Having said that, it’s clear that Marvin Williams is NOT one of those guys. He lacks the aggression and confidence, although the talent level is constantly debated. But the combination of all three is not enough to overcome Woody’s coaching style. With Horford, it was. Marvin doesn’t even know his role right now, or what to do. The guy wasn’t a starter in college, meaning he was not familiar with the responsibility level. Here he is in year 5, and Woody has to tell him to rebound and defend, since scoring is not currently his major contribution? What gives? Not a Marvin hater by a long shot, but that tells you something about his psyche, Woody’s coaching, and how difficult it can be to find a niche.
Big Ray
December 27th, 2009
8:31 pm
Melvin is right. Sautee was on FIRE!!
Now…I wonder if someboDEEZ’s NUTZ are EXTRAORDINARY enough to muster a well thought out, intelligent response or rebuttal. Or will they have to call JOE Mamma to get the answer?
truly1
December 27th, 2009
8:53 pm
Every G M misses on picks we werent the only team to pass on those guys.
truly1
December 27th, 2009
9:02 pm
now about marvin we need someone to play their role who else do you want lebron james for marvin. yea that makes sense. Their are not that many 6 foot 9 245 pound small forwards in this league. They need him again clev to guard lebron. Who do you guys want to guard lebron besides joe johnson who needs to score for us. You guys want J crawford on him how about bibby or mo evans who is in the picture on every dunk Lebron had on us last year in the playoffs.
Melvin
December 27th, 2009
9:07 pm
Big Ray,
I thought Sautee post was address to Truth-serum??????????? lol
South ga boy in the atl
December 27th, 2009
9:20 pm
Sautee – get the hose out cuz ur on fire.
Big Ray – pulling folks pants down and whipping behinds I agree with some of what you say about Marvin ( yes I’m a marvin apologist) especially the part about him trying to figure out his role. If you remember the shot at Boston last yr that should have won the game early in the yr ( except for an answered prayer by paul pierce), it was starting to look as though he was finding his role. When Josh was hurt he stepped up and became more aggressive on both ends of the floor and until he hurt his back he was taking a major step forward. I don’t think he was truly healthy the rest of the yr. Then with the addition of Jamal this yr and his scoring prowess it has Marvin really questioning what his role is. I see a much better defender and rebounder than others, I guess and offense is not a problem with this team so I’m not sure what people think Marvin should be doing. He’s as tall or taller than most 3’s and can use either hand to drive to the hole. He’s our 1st or 2nd best free throw shooter. Do u not think that if Marvin had plays ran for him and was putting up 15-20 shots a game and with his free throw percentage that he would be avg 20+ per game. Just asking Big Ray
kwooden1
December 27th, 2009
9:29 pm
My comments on Marvin Williams:
What I see is a guy that’s still physically maturing and doesn’t have complete command of his abilities. I think Marvin gets a little better each year on his drives and change of directions moves because he matures more each year. I’ve seen several post-up moves, a step-back jumper and left/right running jump hooks. So I believe his clumsiness comes from a lack of physical maturity, oppose to lack of skill. I don’t think he will every be hyper-athletic like Lebron or Wade, or have the agility of Kobe, but I believe he will be much more under control in the coming years. His defense works very well for this team and his jump-shot is prefect for our offensive. These next two weeks are really what this team needs if it’s going to be elite, not just a single change in personnel. Going against the best in the East, multiple times, will force this team to find an identity. It will also remind them of how well they’ll have to play every night to an elite team in this league.
GO HAWKS!!!
GO HAWKS!!!
Ken Strickland
December 27th, 2009
9:58 pm
BIG RAY-there’s no doubt Marvin is not playing up to his potential or past levels of performance. I hold both he and Woodson jointly responsible for that. Bottomline, he’s not nearly as bad as some would make it seem, but he’s nowhere near as effective as he could be, regardless of anything Woodson has or hasn’t done.
He’s certainly not hurting the team as far as his overall play. I like the fact Woodson appreciates his DEF contributions and board work and has continued to take advantage of those contributions by playing him. The fact Woodson didn’t hold Horford back has no relationship to his attitude, approach and track record toward developing young PG’s. His history of playing slow, limited, defensively challenged, over the hill veteran PG’s like TLue, AJohnson or MBibby extensively, even when hurt, rather than commit to giving consistent mins and opportunities to younger PG’s is well documented.
But that’s water under the bridge. If he does a better job with Teague, all can be forgiven. I believe Teague has more overall talent, but ALaw was more mature and a much better DEF player. Both he and SStaudemire were two of the most confident and top clutch players coming out of college in their respective yrs. Both were reduced to showing little confidence under Woodson’s heavy handed treatment and inconsistent opportunities.
For me, it’s just a matter of looking at how well this team has become, and wondering how much better it could be if we’d experienced a higher level of player development, retention and utilization.
BILLY KNIGHT
December 27th, 2009
10:05 pm
I CANT BELIEVE YOU GUYS ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT ME DRAFTING MARVIN HOW ABSURD YOU SO CALL HAWKS FAN BE.
BILLY KNIGHT
December 27th, 2009
10:10 pm
NOW IF I WOULD HAVE DRAFTED CHRIS PAUL YOU GUYS WOULDNT HAVE BEEN IN THE POSITION 2 DRAFT HORFORD YOU CANT HAVE IT ALL.
Ken Strickland
December 27th, 2009
10:31 pm
KWOODEN1-over 3yrs ago I gave my accessment of why Marvin gets so many of his shots blocked and has difficulty driving to the basket. He has the same problem I had, as well as DWilkins. He’s a vertical jumper, which means he has to have both feet directly under him to get any lift. He can jump as high as Smoove or anyone else if he has both feet under him. He’s not an effective one step of one foot jumper. When he drives to the basket he’s usually leaning forward and tends to stumble trying to get both feet under him to get lift. If he doesn’t get his feet under him, he doesn’t get the necessary lift and thus often gets his shot blocked.
Even when shooting his jumpshot, he springs higher than most players because he can get so much more lift when he gets his feet directly under him and jumps off both feet. This’s why I say it’s stupid for any HC to design an OFF that limits a players scoring opportunities to ISO’s and one on one play when that’s clearly his weakness. YOU ALWAYS CATER TO A PLAYERS STRENGTHS, NOT HIS WEAKNESSES.
KevinA
December 27th, 2009
10:52 pm
JeJe
December 27th, 2009
5:23 pm
can someone please explain to me why Bibby feels he has to be so muscular? His only offense on this team is taking jumpshots. He is so big that he has no speed or athleticism anymore. I understand he’s getting old, but why not try get skinnier and look like he did in 2002? he is way too big to be a quick point guard for him.
We mostly disagree on many things but I will give you credit for this one. A 13lb. lighter Bibby would prob be more effictive.
KevinA
December 27th, 2009
11:23 pm
I would like Ken to ask Marvin how his back is doing and in Marvin’s opinion how much of the off season was dedicated to rehabilitation vrs working on new skill sets. I do not want to give up on Marvin if unless he cannot break through. If the doc and the trainers think it is possible, you do not give up on a kid with this much talent. Before his back injury I thought he was progressing just fine. Marvin will be an end of the year or next year decision.
Who else on our team is playing at a lower level than expected.
Al is progressing, so is Josh. Some might consider their play exceeding expectations but I think there a are a couple of levels of growth to go. No reason to think Teague and ZaZa won’t do as well including Rando.
Slowly but surely the big’s are getting the ball more. Jamal and JJ are driving more and taking jump shots closer to the bucket. Joe Smith was just starting to come on before injury. I see better basketball in our future. I see better basketball over the next two years. What’s not to like.
Nate ArchiBALL
December 27th, 2009
11:31 pm
Again, I question if Marvin has recovered fully from his back injury. Marvin isn’t the most athletic person from the start..He’s more big / long than athletic and with a bad back his mobility and ability to jump are impaired — which may be the cause of the inconsistent jumper. Marvin isn’t quick or strong enough to beat anyone off the dribble which is why his shot get blocked or he ends up on the floor when driving to the basket.. He probably got away with that move because a size advantage in the ACC but not in the NBA. I would love to see him nail the open jumper – it would really help the Hawks offense…
Ken Strickland
December 28th, 2009
1:47 am
NATE ARCHIBALL-you certainly could be right. I do know back problems reduced Larry Bird to a shell of his former self long before his time. It also caused a premature end to the careers of former Allstar PF’s Charles Barkley and Gus Johnson, as well as David Robinson.
Along that same line, his wrist injury could be affecting on his shooting issues. Just a thought.
Clyde
December 28th, 2009
2:59 am
FIRE WOODY
ILL-logical
December 28th, 2009
9:16 am
Agree with Nate ArchiBall’s diagnosis concerning Marvin; hope that that it is not/ will not become a chronic condition because it may force some line up changes that i am not ready to trust Woodson to make in the long term(2-3 years) interest of the team.
Overall, the organization,coaching staff and team are doing fine, prehaps even better than fine recordwise. however, there is a economics principle called Stein’s Law which in essence says that that which cannot go on forever, won’t. In short, avoiding problems in the short term will lead to bigger problems later.
Today, it appears that if they continue on their current path the Hawks will win 50+ games and extend their playoff run into the second round thus assuring Woodson at least a 2 year extension (and a raise). However, the 2010-11 season has several question marks beyond Joe/ woodson’s tenure.
First, the Hawk’s fans expectations will be much higher and the financial resources to maintain the current momentum let alone the greater expectations are not there.Second, and this is apoint toward Tuesday’s game, the league will no longer sleep on the team and will prepare acoordingly.Last, can the current line up bring a championship/ don’t know the answer to this question but Marvin’s physical health raises some questions that impact the teams future.
ILL-logical
December 28th, 2009
9:23 am
Agree with Nate ArchiBall’s diagnosis concerning Marvin; hope that that it is not/ will not become a chronic condition because it may force some line up changes that i am not ready to trust Woodson to make in the long term(2-3 years) interest of the team.
Overall, the organization,coaching staff and team are doing fine, prehaps even better than fine recordwise. however, there is a economics principle called Stein’s Law which in essence says that that which cannot go on forever, won’t. In short, avoiding problems in the short term will lead to bigger problems later.
Today, it appears that if they continue on their current path the Hawks will win 50+ games and extend their playoff run into the second round thus assuring Woodson at least a 2 year extension (and a raise). However, the 2010-11 season has several question marks beyond Joe/ Woodson’s tenure.
First, the Hawk’s fans expectations will be much higher and the financial resources to maintain the current momentum let alone the greater expectations are not there.Second, and this is a point that bears watching on Tuesday’s game, the league will no longer sleep on the team and will prepare acoordingly.Last, can the current line up bring a championship? Don’t know the answer to this question but Marvin’s physical health raises some questions that impact the teams future.
O'Brien
December 28th, 2009
9:49 am
Ill-logical,
One of the biggest question marks for 2010-2011 will be JJ’s free agency. Can the Hawks resign him, given that the salary cap will probably decrease, and he might have a max offer (or close to it) to go somewhere else?
vava74
December 28th, 2009
9:56 am
FIRE CLYDE!!!!
Miss Horford
December 28th, 2009
10:11 am
Points to Consider:
Team defense when played correctly negates the need for any new players on our squad. When we play our game we’re unstoppable on D, which translates to the O.
Marvin hasn’t found his niche. His back injury stopped his progress and really sent him back to square 1. His hand problems did it before that. Marvin has shown flashes, but injury always keeps him back when he gets a chance. He’ll develop in time. Just not right now. It isn’t as much age as it is being healthy long enough to build confidence.
Bibby was slow when he was skinny. His bulk helps him be more physical. He’s been gettin after folks lately. I like the tan and the bulk.
Teague would get major minutes playing on a sorry team. He can’t get much real development time with as much as we have on the line.
Al’s inside game is coming along. Why do we question the need to put him on the All-Star team if he isn’t a quality center?
The name is Miss Horford for a good reason – he’s one Sexy Beast!
Mike is Back
December 28th, 2009
10:43 am
Doc, you make some valid points about Marvin…but how many of you can honestly say that Marvin has reached his maximum potential. Its his attitude and how he fits with his teammates and operates within the system, that is often overlooked…those intangible skills allow him to coexist as the fourth or fifth option on a team that is loaded with talent…this is a long season…I would not write him too soon.
We were saying that same thing about Diaw when he was traded. In another system Marvin might be very different…we don’t know. But to keep blaming Marvin for being the number two pick in that drafted IS LUDACRIS. LOL
Marvin had no control over that…these guys are young. I’m not saying that Marvin will ever out perform CP3 and DW. I hope that is not his goal… I hope that he is focus on winning a ring…in that context…he is a valued asset to any team…CUZ HE IS A TEAM GUY. Jezz…give the guy some credit for something. He is going to look really bad some nights…its okay…CUZ YOU GOT HIM AT A REASONABLE RATE. We didn’t blow up the salary cap resigning Marvin. He still has room to grow…which the same can be said of the team. These guys are going to continue to improve…maybe not at the pace we fans want…that is unrealistic.
He is not a bust…maybe not a Super Star…but certainly not a bust. As long as Marvin is willing to put in work…he will continue to improve. Can we at lease agree on that??? THUS FAR, he has been more than willing to do that. I think that is a testament to his character.
You get tire of people dumping on Marvin about a draft that happen for years ago…especially with the season the Hawks are having. To his credit he has remain humble and respectful through out the whole ordeal.
OF COURSE, what do I know…I always cheer for the underdog? lol
Did I mention its great to be relevant again…GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
RLP
December 28th, 2009
11:01 am
Marvin Williams Vs. Lamar Odom:
MPG:
Lamar = 30.4
Marvin = 29.0
PPG:
Lamar = 8.7
Marvin = 10.2
RPG”
Lamar = 8.5
Marvin = 5.3
APG:
Lamar = 3.5
Marvin = 1.1
SPG:
Lamar = 0.9
Marvin = 0.8
BPG:
Lamar = 0.8
Marvin = 0.6
FG%:
Lamar = 42.3%
Marvin = 41.7%
FT%:
Lamar = 61.5%
Marvin = 82.2%
3P%:
Lamar = 28.9%
Marvin = 35.9%
I was like a lot of you in thinking that Lamar Odom was much better than Marvin. However, after looking at the side by side comparisons above I think they are very close. Although Marvin does start and Lamar does not their MPG is almost the same. The biggest difference I see in the two is that Odom is 29 and on the downhill side of his career and Marvin is 23. I cannot say that Marvin has the potential to be great but he is not a bad option on his team.
I am neither an apologist for Marvin nor a detractor but I do not think he is a bad fifth starter for this team.
Astro Joe
December 28th, 2009
11:19 am
Out of curiosity, if Marvin scored 5-6 more points per game, where would those points come from? Josh Smith? Joe? Crawford? Because the only way they could be incremental points is if the team were increasing offensive possessions or if he were taking shot attempts away from a less efficient player. Marvin is obviously a deferential player and with the improvement in Horford, maturing of Josh and acquisition of Crawford, he has deferred himself into a traditional “role player”. But he is NOT hurting the team (which is the only thing that matters). He doesn’t shot excessively, doesn’t play outside of his skill set nor does he take poor shot attempts.
Lastly, you can’t applaud Crawford’s quote about “it only matters who finishes games” AND ask why Marvin is starting. Woody has proven for several years now, that who starts and finishes are completely different. Rather it was Chill for 2-3 years, Flip or now Crawford, he will finish the game with the 5 that he feels will deliver the victory. Marvin gives the team the best opportunity to set the defensive tone early in a game. And ultimately, this team wins games based on their defense and NOT by having 5 offensive ninjas on the floor.
O'Brien
December 28th, 2009
11:33 am
Astro Joe,
I am not concerned about Marvin’s ppg. What I want from him is some consistency, and I would like to see him make impact plays. Like when the other team is making a run, it would be nice to see Marvin make a big 3 point shot (like he did against Boston last year). Or at the end of the half when he’s wide open, make the 3 that can give the Hawks some momentum.
And when the Hawks are settling for jump shots, I would like to see Marvin score when he drives (instead of getting his shot blocked, and the other team ends up on a fast break because Marvin falls down.
If we had Chills, I would prefer him starting, because he impacts the game without needing the ball. And if Marvin is coming off the bench, I think he would get more shots and be more productive. That being said, I am okay with Marvin starting, because Woody usually goes with the correct guys at the end of games.
Although I’m very disappointed in him, Marvin hasn’t really cost us games yet. Now in the playoffs, hopefully he can step his game up and surprise some people, because we will need him (especially against Pierce and LeBron).
JeJe
December 28th, 2009
11:40 am
If it’s about who finishes and not starts, why not just start the BETTER players in the first place?
For example, why the heck did we start Royal Ivey all those games? We never won with him on this team. We were better off starting The Closer or someone who would give us a better chance of winning.
Likewise, I think starting Crawford instead of Marvin and letting Marvin be the key player off the bench will help Marvin develop more and be more aggressive rather than the awkward guy in the corner who scores 6 points every other game
Rufus1
December 28th, 2009
12:07 pm
RLP
You forgot, ODOM makes 10mil a year..Marvin 7.5mil.
What we all know is that Marvin maybe the difference between being very good and great. The thought that we a miss a golden opportunity because of his current performance, upsets people. We are a fan base looking for RESPECT and we need all of our player playing at high level, just to get a little respect. We had higher expectation than his performance so far(some of us) and he has been disappointing, but not terrible.
It make take most of the year for him to find his niche on this team, but I am willing to wait.
RLP
December 28th, 2009
12:12 pm
One of the things that really disappointed me in the Denver game was the fact that in two or three really important points in the game when a score could have had a significant impact on the game’s momentum Marvin was given wide open three point shots that were off the mark. My hope is that when those opportunities come in the future he has better success.
Mychelfromatl
December 28th, 2009
12:14 pm
WOW!!!!
The Hawks are about to play their biggest games of the season so far and all you simpletons have to talk about is this same ol’ Marvin S**t. SMDH!!!!
South ga boy in the atl
December 28th, 2009
12:39 pm
Thank you Nate archiballs, mike is back, and Clyde for backing me up on this most recent Marvin controversy that doc and I and others re-ignited about 3 days ago. Injury, potential, and role on the team are legitimate points to bring up, and would be taken that way if we were talking about other players on the team. But not when people start harping on Marvin. Some lose the power of objective reason and become irrational haters. Are there some flaws in marvin’s game: of course there are as there are with every player this side of Michael. But to throw him under the bus the way some do o. This blog is ludicrus. He was injured last yr just as he was showing great improvement. He can stroke the three but has to become more consistant and just as he was starting to see a role for himself along comes Jamal (don’t get me wrong, love Jamal) and his role is undefined again. H plays good defense ( despite what other miopic people say) and pulls important boards. I say again “what’s not to like” you can’t have 5 starters avg 20 points a game with Jamal coming off the bench doing it as well. Chill out Marvin watchers. He’s 23
MannyT
December 28th, 2009
12:41 pm
Melvin,
Speaking of getting something for nothing, check out the latest NBA doomsday scenario from Bill Simmons. If we end up with Chris Paul via fire sale down the road, would that quiet the Marvin negativity?
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/091223&sportCat=nba
Not saying that we are big spenders, but maybe Sund has another magic beans trade card in his bag. If he can get Crawford, maybe there is another deal to be had in a bad economy.
By the way, I believe there is a CIAA sighting in Atlanta tomorrow. While we watch the Haws & Cavs, Tech plays Winston Salem State.
BWAF
Miss Horford
December 28th, 2009
12:41 pm
Next few weeks should prove hard for our Hawks. Any team, even the best would have a tough time going over .500 during the next few. I think we’ve got a good shot against Cleveland. It all hinges on solid team D and using our speed down low on offense. Horford is gonna shine. He’s proving he can use his speed to dominate slow footed “true” centers. I won’t predict 2 wins, but I pray for two hard fought games to the wire regardless of the outcome we can be proud. I predict 1-1 during the next 2.
newkid
December 28th, 2009
2:29 pm
AJ said:
” But he is NOT hurting the team (which is the only thing that matters).”
Do you really believe that’s “…the only thing that matters.”? Is a GM to select and retain players based upon a ‘NO’ answer to the question “is he hurting the team?”. If that were the case, wouldn’t the construct of most teams be quite different? Does Mitch, in tweaking last season’s O’Brien trophy winners, ask himself: “If I acquire Ron Ron, will he HURT the Lakers? Or does he ask: “Is Ron Ron the best available talent to HELLP my core bring yet another O’Brien to the Staples Center”? Two completely different approaches, arent they? How many of us would hire/retain associates in our business ventures based upon a ‘no’ answer to the question “does he hurt the team?”.
Okay, so I suppose you could argue that if he’s not hurting, he must be helping. To that I say in my best Dikta impersonation: C’mon man!
Again from a Carolina guy, I say we’re 21 & 8 inspite of – not because of – Marvin’s contributions to this point in the current campaign. Hopefully we’ll see a drastic uptick in the fraction of the side’s weight he carries for the remainder of the season (or for however longer Sund decides to swallow that “…he’s not hurting…” absense of logic).
Astro Joe
December 28th, 2009
2:54 pm
newkid, IMO, Marvin helped this team up until that past 29 games. His contract was based on past performance. Again, his performance is disappointing but it is NOT negatively impacting the team. He has gone from the 4th scoring option to the 5th. Wow! I’m not commenting on what happened in some distant draft selection nor the contract signed over the summer. I’m only dealing with the here and now… and here and now, his slump hasn;t resulted in him becoming a turnover machine, foul magnet nor malcontent.
OB, I agree, when he does get one of his 6-7 chances to shoot, he should do a better job converting. I’m grateful that he doesn’t work outside of his skill set (as we have seen others do) and try to do too much to “make up” for his deficiencies. I learned a term in my work life… “dumb energetic”. That describes workers who aggressively screw things up in an attempt to “do something”. While Marvin works through these issues, I am thrilled that he is NOT a dumb energetic.
Here’s my guess… this is likely Marvin’s first bad year as a basketball player in his life. Let’s see how he responds over the long-haul.
Astro Joe
December 28th, 2009
3:38 pm
Interesting, in Joe’s last two seasons with Phoenix (when he became a full-time starter), he averaged 40 minutes/game. He is on pace to play fewer than 38 minutes for the first time since he started more than 35 games as a pro.
Marvin is playing about 15% fewer minutes per game this season. His scoring and rebound per game averages are likewise down about 15%. However, his steals per minute and blocks per minute have increased year-over-year. His 3-point FG% and free throw percentages are both slightly up while his overall FG% is considerably down. Likewise, his trips to the free throw line are considerably down from last year. Last year, he shot the ball about 15 times per game (between FG and FT attempts)… this year he is only shooting 11 times per game. Meanwhile, the team is scoring about 7 points more per game than last year.
Rod from College Park
December 28th, 2009
4:08 pm
Big Ray,
“Does this…
You Marvin supporters are hilarious. I’m done trying to explain how terrible he is.
…mean that you aren’t going to post anymore? Just curious, because besides whatever redundant stuff you have to say about Marvin….well, I just can’t remember any other insight on the Hawks from you at all. You say you’re tired or you’re done trying to explain your point of view. Pardon me if I just don’t quite believe it.”
It means what it says. I am going to stop TRYING TO EXPLAIN. All the points I have raised about Marvin from two years ago to today have been proven true. He is not good. He is not worth the 7.5 to 8 mill per year we pay him. We should have signed Chills for that money, or Ariza or Artest, or traded for Steven Jackson….. He is not a top 10 small forward in the league. He is not our best perimeter defender. He is not better than Josh. He will not become and elite player in the league. He is not better than Danny Granger. He can not guard the top 3’s in the league. He falls a lot. He has no handles. He can’t post up smaller players and score consistently. He is the wink link in our starting lineup. All of these were debates I have had with many on this board to include (Nireclown, Doc, Big Ray, Sautee, O’Brien, Ken Strickland, terrell barron………..
I will ask you Marvin supporters this. What will Marvin do when the teams we play actually check him? Will he be able to score then?
Astro Joe
December 28th, 2009
4:08 pm
Stats notwithstanding, Marvin has clearly regressed this year.
Oh yeah, anyone notice what Mo Evans has done in the past 5 games? 4-23 from the field including 1-12 from distance. And 1 more total rebound than fouls over the same 5 games.
Rod from College Park
December 28th, 2009
4:12 pm
Astro Joe,
I would actually say that he is the 6th option behind Joe, Crawford, Josh, Horford, and Bibby. All of those guys are much better scoring options than Marvin no matter what the numbers say. His new salary does not support him being our 6th scoring option.
ILL-logical
December 28th, 2009
4:14 pm
“Eight teams (Philly, Sacramento, Charlotte, Memphis, Minnesota, Milwaukee, Indiana and Atlanta) already reside in the dreaded “We Make Less Than $500,000 Per Game” Club, and that number could swell once noncontenders either gut their teams or start tanking for lottery purposes.”
Well , there it is: no revenue means no Joe. BTW, tell me again what the Hawks’ marketing deparment does exactly?
Rod from College Park
December 28th, 2009
4:15 pm
Astro Joe,
Mo Evans was not a #2 draft pick, is not paid 7.5 mill a year and was not expected to make that big leap this year. Marvin was. Mo Evans is also not considered to be a core member of this team. Marvin is.
ILL-logical
December 28th, 2009
4:15 pm
Eight teams (Philly, Sacramento, Charlotte, Memphis, Minnesota, Milwaukee, Indiana and Atlanta) already reside in the dreaded “We Make Less Than $500,000 Per Game” Club, and that number could swell once noncontenders either gut their teams or start tanking for lottery purposes.”
Well , there it is: no revenue means no Joe. BTW, tell me again what the Hawks’ marketing department does exactly?
MannyT
December 28th, 2009
5:02 pm
ILL-logical,
What you skipped over in your research is that the Hawks have the greatest increase in attendance over last year. Yes, we are behind, but the gate revenue is making significant progress compared to the recent past.
The Atlanta Hawks (15-6), long challenged in the attendance department but off to their best start in a decade, have seen a league-high 26.8 percent increase in net gate receipts – to $468,036 per game, up from $369,157 at this point last season. Atlanta is selling an average of 10,573 tickets per game, up from 7,900 at this point last season.
Reference http://ken-berger.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/11838893/18850386
I am not defending the marketing department, but an extra $100k over 41 games, plus playoff money should not put us out of the running for JJ. ASSG put 4 yr/$60 mil on the table over the summer. That at least keeps them in the conversation.
A MAX offer for Joe isn’t much higher (in pro sports money) than the Hawks’ bid.
I’d suspect that JJ wants to keep his options open, but total compensation probably won’t be the dealmaker/breaker
BWAF
Astro Joe
December 28th, 2009
5:52 pm
Rod, I wasn’t making a case for Evans vs. Marvin, just saying that Mo has returned to his natural position as a 7-8th man on the bench. As I said, Marvin has regressed over the first 29 games (thus far). If memory serves me, Josh Smith didn;t appear to “deserve” his $11M/year contract during the first third of last year, either.
Rod from College Park
December 28th, 2009
7:00 pm
Astro Joe,
I disagree with your Josh statement. Even when he was taking dumb shots and shooting threes, he always brought it every night. He is not injury prone, and he always has been the most dominant defensive player on the floor. Josh deserves every dollar he gets from the Hawks, as does Joe. Just my opinion.
truly1
December 28th, 2009
7:09 pm
Simple answer JeJe you need more than 5 players to win a Game
truly1
December 28th, 2009
7:10 pm
crawford fits better on the second team
JeJe
December 28th, 2009
7:18 pm
I gotta agree with my boy Rod from the CP.
Marvin sucks. He is not a good Small Forward.
NO ONE ELSE IN THIS LEAGUE offered him a contract this past summer. NO ONE. There were no reports. NO ONE was going to sign a 12 ppg (or so) small forward who was injury prone for 7.5 mill (Marvin wanted more).
He was an AVERAGE basketball player. he is NOT a difference maker and is NOT a consistently good defender
JeJe
December 28th, 2009
7:21 pm
Marvin CANNOT post up smaller players.
One play that always sticks with me was the home game vs. the Rockets 2 years ago (in March 2008) when Marvin was posting up 6″2 Luther Head, 6 feet away from the hoop, lost the ball, and fell down. That is Marvin Williams. Uses his “athleticism” by getting owned by a 6″2 player
truly1
December 28th, 2009
7:28 pm
Who do you want that we can afford a SF that has length and size of marvin because defense is what we need at SF not points.
newkid
December 28th, 2009
7:29 pm
Rod from College Park, I respectfully disagree with those of you who pedal the nonsense that a proper evaluation of Marvin’s current contributions ought to start with the citing of his draft position 4+ years ago. Whether or not he’s contributing today has about as much to do with his slotting in that draft as the order of any of our births (in our respective families) when our contributions to society are measured. Whether he was taken 60th in the draft or 1st is completely immaterial and irrelevant in evaluating the extent to which he is (or isn’t) contributing to team success here 4+ years on. By your ‘logic’ players who are 2nd rounders or non-draftees should all be forever expected to contribute absolutely nothing to their sides. Yeah, right. Tell that to Agent Zero; tell that to Monta Ellis; tell that to Carlos Boozer; tell that to, well you get the idea don’t you?
The guy’s not carrying his weight, PERIOD; irrespective of his draft status. The draft ‘horse’ is long since dead; to what end need we stay out in the field beating it? You know what they say about people who trudge around fields and pastures looking for dead horses to beat, don’t you? There’s a new horse (called ‘current on the floor performance’) that justifiably requires our attention. You cats should c’mon in from the cold and help us beat hell out of the ‘live’ horse.
truly1
December 28th, 2009
7:29 pm
Who do you want that we can afford at SF that has length and size of marvin because defense is what we need at SF not points
JeJe
December 28th, 2009
7:33 pm
Wtf. Why does AJC eat up half my posts?
My post was about how Mark Cuban and Jerry Buss spend all the money in the world to get their teams far in the playoffs, whereas we never hear from our “ownersh!t” and they are cheap idiots. Any team trying to contend HAS TO GO INTO THE LUXURY TAX. You can’t survive with 7solid-paid players and a bunch of guys on minimum wage. The Lakers Big 5 is almost paid more than our entire roster, if they are not already.
In addition, our owners have no idea what RELATIONSHIP SELLING is. How are you gonna take a MONTH+ to sign Joe Smith to a VETERAN MINIMUM contract? What a freaking joke. No way FA’s want to be treated like rodents
idiots
truly1
December 28th, 2009
7:45 pm
yeah JeJe you are right about the ownership being cheap but some claim on this blog that marvin is making to much who do you want at sf playing for us? I just want to hear some name because I dont think many sfs would fit because they dont play defense at least the SFs that we can get.
Astro Joe
December 28th, 2009
8:07 pm
Rod, when Josh missed most of November, shot around 40% from the field and averaged 3 turnovers during his first few months as an $11M man, he certainly didn’t appear to be earning his contract. All I am saying is that if you define a players 5-year contract off of the first 6-8 weeks, then at least be consistent. And if “trying” is worth $11M, then Mario West should be earning $30M for some team, because NO ONE tried harder than Super Mario.
Marvin has had a disappointing season, but it doesn’t yet define him as a player (at least not to me).
Astro Joe
December 28th, 2009
8:30 pm
Did y’all know that the Hawks are 2-2 on the road against the top 4 teams in the West? Not bad. And somehow, I missed that we had become one of ESPN’s favorite teams this season. And we’re not just playing the role of the Washington Generals for other teams, several of our televised games, it appears that WE are the featured team. COOL!
Truth-Serum
December 28th, 2009
8:43 pm
JeJe I rarely see a post that get right down to the issue like your most recent one. Its up to the ownership to provide the necessary talent to take us over the hump. Yes, Buss and Cuban spend the Bucks. Dont forget Auerbach! In fact now Cleveland , Orlando and Boston all show they will spend.
Gate receipts? How long have we had a winning product? Since when have the owners made believers out of the fans? So us the money and we will pack the house. The old saying is “build it, they will come.”
Invest the money in top flight talent and they will come.
Manny T an excellent post. This increase is in a down economy and competing with the high point of football season.
So nice I had to post it twice!
The Atlanta Hawks (15-6), long challenged in the attendance department but off to their best start in a decade, have seen a league-high 26.8 percent increase in net gate receipts – to $468,036 per game, up from $369,157 at this point last season. Atlanta is selling an average of 10,573 tickets per game, up from 7,900 at this point last season.
Its nice to deal with the real culprits of upper management.
Truth-Serum
December 28th, 2009
8:44 pm
show us
Melvin
December 28th, 2009
9:26 pm
Doc,
I’m watching your boy Yi going to work against OKC (10-16, 26pts 6rebs, 2steals thru 3qtrs of work). As I sugguested to you a few months ago, don’t give up on him yet. I think he will be a late bloomer. You know, how people like to refer to Marvin… Heck, let’s swap Yi for Marvin right now…LOL
O'Brien
December 28th, 2009
9:44 pm
MannyT,
I think a more realistic trade proposal for the Hawks is if the Nets get the #1 pick, they might be willing to trade Devin Harris (assuming they draft John Walls). If I’m not mistaken, Harris makes close to $9 mil per year, so maybe Bibby at $6 mil (and one less year on his deal) might be more attractive (not sure what else it would take).
Rumor has it that Vinny Del Negro will be fired once the Bulls figure out his replacement. Maybe Woody will be a candidate at the end of the year.
Miss Horford
December 28th, 2009
9:55 pm
Are we mature enough to lose Bibby & his leadership? Would Devin be any better on D than Bibby? His speed and ability to get to the basket is awesome, but what do others think?
Why are other broke teams going to have more to offer Joe in terms of $$ than the ATL? I prefer to feel Joe wants to win, he sees us as our home, he’s committed to Woodson. Keep the core, keep Woodson & Joe will sign. That’s just me?
Marvin has digressed significantly. I say give him till season’s end. If he doesn’t produce explore trade options. I don’t see messing with chemistry till the offseason.
Melvin
December 28th, 2009
10:19 pm
If the Rockets are bold/dumb enough to release/waive TMac. I hope Sund and the Hawks would persue him. TMac in the SF spot with Crawford and Joe in the backcourt would be nice. He may or may not be the same player but he will still demand respect on the court just the same. We could let Marvin start and TMac finish…. Just a thought.
Miss Horford
December 28th, 2009
10:26 pm
TMac will be nursing an “injury” from the end of any bench he sits.
Miss Horford
December 28th, 2009
10:34 pm
What’s McGrady’s playoff record? How bout when games really matter? Kid’s got nothin!
Melvin
December 28th, 2009
10:46 pm
Miss Horford,
TMac as a complementary player, I’ll take him…Some people thought adding Crawford would be a bad acquistion. How did that workout for the Hawks???
Ken Strickland
December 28th, 2009
10:56 pm
The only way I’d consider trading Marvin is if I was assured of being able to resign Chills as his replacement. I also believe he’d resign with the Hawks if we offered him a decent contract and Woodson assured him he’d make him a starter rather than our 6th man.
It’s obvious Woodson’s OFF doesn’t have many options. Since Chills doesn’t need the ball in his hands to be effective, and has proven to be very productive without having plays called for him, he would be even more productive than before playing in our current uptempo style.
It’s obvious he wants back into the NBA, but only under the right circumstances, which I believe we can offer.
Also, if we insist on starting and playing Bibby extended mins and forcing Teague to look over his shoulder everytime he brings the ball down the court or makes a mistake, we’re going to fail in the playoffs. Until we improve our PG play, especially on DEF, we’ll continue being a notch below teams like the Cavaliers, Magic, Lakers, Mavericks, Nuggets and Celtics. Oh, we might win a few regular season gms against them, but in a 7gm playoff series, our chances will be limited, especially if they have the homecourt advantage.
Teague entered the game against the Pacers, and after only a few mins he had a turnover and was immediately replaced by Bibby. On our next OFF posession Bibby committed a turnover by making an errant pass and absolutely nothing was said or done by Woodson. This is the same confidence shattering double standard we’ve seen before with SStaudemire and ALaw.
JeJe
December 28th, 2009
11:04 pm
truly1,
I would like to see us trade Marvin + ZaZa (we love him, but the guy just is not consistently good. His offense is so frustrating to watch) for Josh Howard or Antwawn Jamison. These are 2 seasoned veterans who are still probably in the upper echelon of SF’s, they compete, and they will score points. I have a hard time believing Marvin will ever get better. I said in his 3rd and 4th yr, as did many others here, that Marvin would average 18 ppg. All he did last year was add the 3pt FG to his game. Besides that clutch Boston shot I really cannot recall anything this guy did for us at all last year.
Guys like Marvin, Acie Law, and Shelden, worked as hard as possible to be good for us, but they just aren’t/weren’t. Marvin will not get any better in the future than he is now. I’m not hating on the guy. Hell, he won a NC and his jersey number was one # off from #23. But he is not going to be a star in this league.
JeJe
December 28th, 2009
11:09 pm
And back to my post on Relationship Selling, it is of the essence in NBA when pursuing Free Agents. Rick Sund said Summer 2008 that we would not take Josh Smith out to dinner in Atlanta when negotiating, since “he’s been to every restaurant.” What type of idiotic statement is this? The owners alienate players and have no idea how to develop a rapport with the players. We had to blindly throw $14M at Joe (I think he was our 3rd or 4th choice that summer) to get him to come here. Other than that, we have NOT landed another HIGH PROFILE (If Joe was even considered that) Free Agent here — we have NOT thrown the money at players to come here. You NEVER see this team in any valid trade rumors for players like Bosh, Garnett years back, Bryant, McGrady. All you saw was that pathetic Amare rumor which never came into fruition.
I don’t think anyone here can honestly look at our roster now and in the next 2 years and see us winning our conference and getting to the Finals / winning in the finals. There’s no way in hell we will ever beat Orlando in a series or come close to winning. That team is so deep with talent. Their 9th and 10th options are light-years ahead of anywhere Marvin will ever be in his career. Bottomline: Cleveland (Shaq trade), Orlando (Went to Finals + Vince trade), and Boston (Rasheed signing) all made moves as perennial Eastern Conference powerhouses to get to the Finals, whereas we are stuck as the “cute” #4 seed in the East who will not compete for the Title.
I would like to see us go into the Luxury tax next year. If this requires the ASG selling the team, then that must happen.
More later
JeJe
December 28th, 2009
11:12 pm
No — We DON’T need Childress. What we need is to start Mo Evans, who costs garbage money, and to throw our money at a superstar (WADE) this summer. Childress isn’t going to do anything for this team. Do you people honestly want to pay 7M for a guy who makes garbage layups, who is frail, and cannot get a jumpshot off?
O'Brien
December 28th, 2009
11:15 pm
Ken,
Another big issue is what happens if Bibby ever has to miss extended time? Woody would not know what to do.
I would love to have Chills and Marvin as our SF’s. That would give Woody options, depending on matchups.
I’m looking forward to the game tomorrow. I hope Woody and his staff used the timeoff to come up with a gameplan. Even if LeBron gets his (and he will), we must keep Varejao (sp?) off the boards, and Bibby has to find a way to slow down Mo Williams.
JeJe
December 28th, 2009
11:22 pm
These days off always kill the Hawks. Why does it feel like we’ve had 3 days off between every game?
Jody
December 29th, 2009
1:10 am
This might sound strange to some, but I think the Hawks will have become an elite team when they can beat an elite team without having to play a “perfect” game. We’ve seen teams like the Lakers, Celtics, Cavs and Magic play less than stellar basketball and at times flawed basketball and STILL beat the Hawks most times they play them. On the other hand, the Hawks have to play pratically a perfect game to beat those teams. This is an indicator that the Hawks are a really good team, but not yet on the same level as the elite teams.
bigdave
December 29th, 2009
1:13 am
Boston loses in Oakland… big home and home series for us…
lets get it…!
hawks_4_life
December 29th, 2009
8:24 am
BIG HOME AND HOME AGAINST CLEVELAND AND NO NEW BLOG UP REGARDING IT?
Mychelfromatl
December 29th, 2009
8:39 am
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Damn the AJC is failing us again…SMH!
Sautee
December 29th, 2009
9:08 am
Jeje,
About this: “These days off always kill the Hawks. Why does it feel like we’ve had 3 days off between every game?”
While I applaud your eagerness to get to the next game, the days off hardly “kill” the Hawks. Actually our record is 6-1 with at least two days off between games.
O'Brien
December 29th, 2009
10:24 am
Good point Jody,
Question for you. When the Hawks play a perfect game, and their opponent (specifically Lakers, Celtics, Cavs, Magic) also play a perfect game, who wins?
Guys,
Cavs are on a roll. 2 monster road wins (1 in Phoenix, and 1 at Lakers).
Ken Strickland
December 29th, 2009
10:42 am
Tonight’s front end of a back to back with Cleveland will launch a stretch of gms that will tell us exactly what type of team we have. Hawk fans can whine, moan, complain and come up with all the unlikely trade senarios they want, but the truth is, we’ll most likely have to finish the season with our current roster.
The next stretch of gms, especially the back to back with Cleveland, will be a preview of what we can expect during this yrs playoffs. It’s going to take consistent contributions from Marvin, JJ, Smoove, Horford, Crawford, Bibby, Zaza, Evans, JSmith and Teague, along with some inspired coaching and decision making from HC MWoodson, to successfully navigate this stretch of gms.
I want everyone to pay attention to our PG play and see what I mean when I say it’s our biggest weakness. Acquiring Bibby in 08 to run our still very young, immature and inexperienced team was the single biggest improvement this team has seen in the last 5yrs. Now, this team has matured and improved to the point where Bibby has become our biggest weakness. Opposing teams now take us very seriously and continuously look for weaknesses that they can exploit to give them an edge and keep us from running them off the floor. So far this yr, Bibby has been their main target.
It’s been almost a week since Sautee and I made solid points and posed questions to those who’ve made an issue of Horford as our starting center, and so far there’s been nothing but silence.
It’s also rather amusing to see those who are staunch defenders of HC MWoodson attack Marvin by trying to point out every conceivable flaw imaginable, whether real of imagined, while ignoring anything he might be contributing to the team. Yet, when anyone makes a strong point about HC MWoodson’s coaching or approach to coaching, they are quick to throw out the same defense, BUT WE’RE 20-8 WITH WOODSON AS OUR HC. WELL, AREN’T WE 20-8 WITH MARVIN AS OUR STARTING SF? Where’s the logic?
Mz. Hawkdafied
December 29th, 2009
10:56 am
The tides have turned. The Cavs are playing great and are on a winning streak. The Lakers and Celtics meanwhile are on a losing streak. Now which of the three teams’ streak is of the greatest concern right now? The Cavs’ streak right. Why did the Cavs decide to start playing great basketball right before the back to back vs the Hawks?
A little while ago the Hawks and Cavs were flip flopping between the 3 and 4 spot. But not right now. Right before the back to back curses. I can’t lie with the way Cleveland made LA fall apart on Christmas night, it got this Hawks fan a little scared, shaking in the knees. And once again I must stress right before the back to back vs the Hawks.
Now this Cleveland back to back is serious business and a perfect opportunity to make a statement. Just think about it. We owe this team some payback. They stole (that’s right stole didn’t nobody foul Lebron) a win last season in January and took over the arena during the playoffs. Not to mention swept us and knocked us out of the playoffs.
Yeah we could use the excuse that our team wasn’t at full force during the playoffs. But guess what, we are at full force now. Full force with a better bench. I want this win tonight so bad. I hope the ATL Hawks do too.
Mz. Hawkdafied
December 29th, 2009
11:00 am
Ken Strickland make that 21-8.
Rufus1
December 29th, 2009
11:04 am
Ken..great points
If we are going to win with athleticism and not size, why to we have the most unathletic PG this side of Derek Fisher(Can Bibby still dunk?)
JeJe
December 29th, 2009
11:19 am
That’s what I’ve said about Bibby.
HE IS TOO BIG. HE DOES NOT UTILIZE HIS MUSCULARITY IN HIS GAME. HIS OFFENSIVE FOUNDATION IS SHOOTING AND HE DOESN’T PLAY DEFENSE.
IF THE GUY LOST 15 POUNDS HE’D BE SO MUCH MORE EFFICIENT. WHY DOES NO ONE ELSE MENTION THIS? I SAID ALL SUMMER HE HAD TO LOSE WEIGHT, BUT HE DIDN’T. I TOLD SEKOU HE SHOULD LOSE WEIGHT, AND SEKOU THOUGHT IT WAS A JOKE
Astro Joe
December 29th, 2009
11:29 am
Strickland, in fairness, you have to evaluate Bibby on BOTh sides of the court. He has ALWAYS been a weak defender and age won;t make him any better. But any honest evaluation of the PG position must include what happens on the offensive end, where we lead the conference in scoring and commit very, very few turnovers. No one can defend Bibby as a defender but it is VERY easy to defend Bibby as the best overall PG on this team.
KevinA
December 29th, 2009
11:41 am
Dallas, Memphis, Houston, Charlotte, Washington,Toronto, are teams Cleveland lost to on the road. Chicago and Boston were home loses.
Lakers, Charlotte, No, Detroit, Chicago, Denver. are teams the Hawks lost on the road. New Your and Orlando were home loses.
It looks to me Cleveland is just as vulnerable on the road as the Hawks. We are 10-2 at home. I will be placing my bet on the Hawks tonight and give Cleveland the edge tomorrow night.
Part of my growing confidence is the play of Josh and Al. If they stay out of foul trouble it should be a competitive game between the big’s.
Another big factor will be the play of JJ. He needs to avoid the ego point matching of Labron and set the example of team ball. Our big’s almost always play efficient on offense. Tonight we need the same from our guards. We will need to be close to 50% in FG% to win.
Astro Joe
December 29th, 2009
11:42 am
Hilarious, yeah, Derek Fisher ain’t nothing compared to an athletic contemporary like Steve Francis. I mean, if Fisher were all that, he’d have 5 rings by now (instead of 4). Ha!
Mz. Hawkdafied
December 29th, 2009
11:43 am
The more important question is, can Bibby distribute the ball effectively? YES HE CAN!
Each player on the Hawks team plays a role and contributes his own thing to the team, whether big or small. Discrediting Hawks players and coaches after a 21-8 start is just ignorant.
Mz. Hawkdafied
December 29th, 2009
11:50 am
Your precious Derek Fisher was getting posted up by Mo Williams and turning the ball over. The only contribution he was making in that Christmas game so far was getting some offensive fouls called.
Derek Fisher and Kobe has rings because they were fortunate to be on great Laker teams. The only ring those two really earned is the one from last season. Kobe’s team is starting to lose because he has gone back to his ball hogging ways. When Kobe plays team ball his team wins. Kobe is scoring 30+ points but his team is still losing. Well at least that was the case for the Cavs and Suns losses.
Melvin
December 29th, 2009
11:51 am
JeJe,
Because losing weight doesn’t automatically make you faster. It sounds good in principle but it’s not always practical. Especially when your over 30yrs old. Bibby is getting older and the older you get, the more atheletic ability you lose. There is no substitute for age, wear and tear on the body….
KevinA
December 29th, 2009
11:57 am
With all the complaints about Marvin I agree with Ken our weakest link is Bibby. But the old man is going nowhere soon and neither is Marvin. At the end of next year? Maybe. Alot depends on the developement of Teague and how Marvin is playing at the end of this year.
To change subjects I would like Rando to get enough playing time to decide if he will be our fourth big of the future with the idea of him becoming our 3rd big. I love ZaZa but Rando shows flashes of great feel around the basket. The kid like Teague needs a decent shot.
Samuel
December 29th, 2009
12:02 pm
“Bibby is our biggest weakness”. What a joke. How about we ask the players.
Some of yall were counting Cleveland and “My Boy” Shaq out a few days ago. Merry Christmas, ShaqAClause is back. They showed that the Lakers are still soft inside.
If we could get a player like TMac. Hell yea!! Why not. We need something else to put us a little closer to the “Big Three”. Plus, it would be more insurance in case JJ walks.
Miss Horford,
I’ve been telling these clowns that JJ is waiting to see what the ASG does with Woody for a while. They don’t believe me. Nice to see that someone else can see the less obvious. Good observation.
O'Brien
December 29th, 2009
12:05 pm
The Hawks defense (especially Marvin and Bibby) will be key, because if we get caught up in the switching, our bigs will end up in foul trouble.
We need Bibby to pressure the ball and slow down Mo Williams, although I wont be surprised to see JJ guard Mo Williams.
We’ve talked about Marvin’s defense and his disappearing act. Well, this is one game where he can make an impact. We know LeBron is going to get his, but Marvin needs to make LBJ work. And if Marvin can get some points, then LBJ would have to play some defense too.
Mz. Hawkdafied
December 29th, 2009
12:05 pm
Mo Williams was making D Fish look so bad, Kobe decided that the only way to deal with it was to make a dirty play and knock Mo down. The Cavs exposed the Lakers. Lamar Odom didn’t do jack but get thrown out of the game. The Lakers lost it. Even Phil Jackson wanted to blame the refs. SMH
My main concern is that the Hawks and Coaches stay level headed, keep their cool, and just play their game. Play their game to win that is. Stay focused. Stick with what works. And scratch whatever doesn’t work. And for goodness sake keep Lebron from doing his little gay dance on the sidelines. Who the heck told him he could dance? He needs to stick with basketball.
Samuel
December 29th, 2009
12:05 pm
Joe,er
These clowns are infatuated with “dunks” and BS like that. I call them “Nintendo GMs”. Fisher is a winner. Funny how Phil chooses to play him over young “studs” like Farmar and Brown.
Fire The Zen Master
Mz. Hawkdafied
December 29th, 2009
12:10 pm
No JJ just wants to be a part of the prestigious class of 2010 free agents. That’s my observation.
Rufus1
December 29th, 2009
12:12 pm
I don’t want to trade Bibby, I just want a back-up PG who can defend and penetrate. I believe Bibby is an important asset to the teams success and we will need his shooting and leadership in the playoffs.
If you remember when we played the Hornets last year and ACLAW was able to stop Paul from penetrating at will…the game change immediately. I would simply like a defensive option at PG.
Astro Joe
December 29th, 2009
12:17 pm
If you’re looking for world class dunkers, check out the Harlem Globetrotters. Me, I’ll take someone like Derek Fisher, Mike Bibby or Joe Johnson over Steve Francis, Nate Robinson or Corey Maggette each and every time.
KevinA
December 29th, 2009
12:58 pm
You might think of Bibby or Marvin as our weakest link. One could make a fair argument either way. What I am waiting for is the kudos to Woody for cutting both of their minutes and giving them to Jamal. Jamal, Bibby, Teague, Evans, Marvin all are subject to bench time when they are cold. We should recognize the improvement in this area.
RLP
December 29th, 2009
12:59 pm
I love the fact that right now we stand tied for third in the NBA in fewest losses. I love the fact that the two teams ahead of us both lost last night and are one and two losses respectively ahead of the Hawks in losses. So far this has been a great season for the Hawks.
But I am also a fan with many memories. I remember a time in the 80’s when the Hawks were competing with Detroit for becoming a truly elite ball team. If memory serves me correctly the Hawks defeated the Pistons in the playoffs one year just as both teams were reaching for the stars. I noticed that some people on this blog have pointed to other teams that stood on the cusp of greatness and then fell back. The Dallas team that was defeated by the refs and DWade is one example. The Suns have been in that role a number of times.
At this point none of us know what the outcome of this team’s push for greatness will actually deliver. Today we may be at that high point. Two losses to the Cavaliers and a tough schedule in January may see this team crashing back to earth. The team may then really be in a fight with the Heat for fourth place. Or the team may soar upward toward greatness. Who knows? That is why they play the games isn’t it?
My feeling is that this year’s team is an improvement over last year’s team. The team is simply better. But who knows how much better? We begin to answer that question tonight. Let’s get it on.
Jody
December 29th, 2009
1:08 pm
O’Brien,
Though I don’t have any numbers off the top of my head, I would say that when the Hawks play the elite teams and both teams play extremely well, the elite teams usually win because of the advantages they enjoy at certain crucial positions though I admit that the flow of the game, tempo and style of play have an impact. Again, I think the Hawks are a very good team and are moving in the right direction, but they are not yet an elite team as many call them. I think they are one or two moves away.
Melvin
December 29th, 2009
1:15 pm
RLP, co-sign your post…
Melvin
December 29th, 2009
1:16 pm
Astro Joe,
Come on. Steve Francis was one of the best players in the league before the injuries…
Hawk n the Ham
December 29th, 2009
2:00 pm
I can’t help but think this game is going to be decided by the bench. Can the Hawks play great D and push the ball up floor with the 2nd team on the court?
The Hawks rely so much on D and fast breaks but LBJ makes it difficult with him on the floor because he is the best come from behind defender in the NBA.
Melvin
December 29th, 2009
2:22 pm
Hawk n the Ham,
You must have missed Josh previous 5yr in the league. He use to do that on the regular. Now that Lebron started doing it last year, some how it became so popular….
Speaking of Josh, if he want to be an All-Star this year then he need to show up big in this miniseries against the Cavs….
In Josh we Trust…
Hawk n the Ham
December 29th, 2009
2:29 pm
Melv –
I’m with you brother. Gotta love the Smoove.
I’m pumped for tonight, wish I was in ATL for this one. I hope ZaZa plays clean up and lays LBJ out a couple of times tonight. Also, I’m glad this one isn’t on ESPN or TNT. I hate watching my Hawks and having to listen to the national media commentators make man love to the likes of the LBJs and Wades.
doc
December 29th, 2009
2:30 pm
rlp you are right to say the cusp of the season is upon us. excellent well grounded statements for the next few weeks. should be fun to be a hwaks fan again and regain some relevance.
melvin check you out tonight dude? with my son. manny t others will look out for you as well.
Melvin
December 29th, 2009
2:37 pm
Doc,
Sorry, but I will not be there tonite (no Kiss Cam). However, I will be there for the Boston game..
Melvin
December 29th, 2009
2:39 pm
Doc, not sure if you saw my post last night…
Melvin
December 28th, 2009
9:26 pm
Doc,
I’m watching your boy Yi going to work against OKC (10-16, 26pts 6rebs, 2steals thru 3qtrs of work). As I sugguested to you a few months ago, don’t give up on him yet. I think he will be a late bloomer. You know, how people like to refer to Marvin… Heck, let’s swap Yi for Marvin right now…LOL
Melvin
December 29th, 2009
2:43 pm
Hawk n Ham,
I agreee. I use to like Lebron but now I’m sick of his overhype (you know what)… Can somebody shut them damn puppets up…
Samuel
December 29th, 2009
2:47 pm
Monta Ellis is a beast
theZaZaguy
December 29th, 2009
3:11 pm
I hope Lebron storms off in a hissyfit after getting humiliated by the hawks. I so wish I wouldn’t have sold my tickets. I’m having sellers remorse.
Did any of you catch nba gametime after beating the pacers? They were going ga ga over how atheletic we are. They actually said that Boston and Cleveland would be afraid to face us in the second round and they threw out the possibility that we may even have home court in the second round. Nice to see we’re finally getting the respect from some of the national media.
bigdave
December 29th, 2009
3:30 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW9f_oC8fEs
“All grown up gotta fly with the rest.”
“Best of the best is what we strive to be.
A legacy is what we trying to leave.
Ya dig?”
“We tired of being runners up.
We coming up. Yup.
We ready for whatever you put in front of us.”
lets get it…
JeJe
December 29th, 2009
3:44 pm
Melvin,
Jason Richardson, Nash, Kobe and Iverson can still run. Why can’t Bibby?
BECAUSE THEY’RE IN SHAPE
JeJe
December 29th, 2009
3:46 pm
Where is the game blog?
Melvin
December 29th, 2009
3:57 pm
JeJe that’s a mixed group to compare Bibby to but none of those guys has gotten quicker or more atheletic age they age. Hence, how often you seen J.Rich (former dunk champ) get rundown from behind (Josh/Lebron/G.Wallace) and get his dunk block. Nash, doesnt have the same gear/motor he used to have, thats why Phx is grooming his backup Drogan(misp). Kobe went to Houston learn post move from the Dream this summer b/c he’s not flying over people like he use to. Iverson, Come’on man (in my Chris Carter voice). He has definitely loss a step or two….
MannyT
December 29th, 2009
3:59 pm
Let’s go Hawks!!!!
As much as I would enjoy being there tonight, I am still on holiday break. Will try to catch it on TV if I get to the right place by game time. Might be back for next game.
Melvin, I’ll see you at Boston. Unfortunately, WSS didn’t hold up well against Tech today.
Samuel, I think it will be tricky for anyone to get T-Mac. The Rockets must love having an expiring contract worth $23 mil. Could be worse, he could be Eddie Curry who is in a worse career position (but better financially) than Nate (buried under the bench) Robinson.
http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/27/if-curry-wants-out-knicks-can-make-it-happen/
BWAF
Melvin
December 29th, 2009
4:00 pm
Manny T,
Look like the Hornets have started Operation Salary Dump:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Wolves-get-Devin-Brown-cash-from-Hornets-for-Ja;_ylt=Ann157PipYVdCUVDJ4jDHAm8vLYF?urn=nba,211103
Melvin
December 29th, 2009
4:03 pm
they should have read in my 3:57 post…
*as they aged
Melvin
December 29th, 2009
4:07 pm
Houston may have no choice but to buyout TMac contract unless they could get KMart for Sactown. It’s too big to trade and they have no leverage consider other teams know he’s not wanted in Houston anymore…
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AmLqNcAPssdhJrBArqN_szS8vLYF?slug=aw-mcgradyrockets122809&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
JeJe
December 29th, 2009
4:27 pm
Melvin,
Those guys have mostly stayed in shape and have not gotten much slower. Bibby looks horrendous out there. The guy could hardly win a foot race with an injuerd Ilgasukas for crying out loud
Justin
December 29th, 2009
5:40 pm
Huge games tonight and tomorrow for psychological reasons if nothing else, to flush the memory of last year’s playoff series. Plus the schedule the next month is absolutely brutal. I can’t ever remember seeing a stretch that tough. 7 games against Orl, Cavs, and C’s, plus road games in Houston, San Antonio, Miami and home against Suns? Even the Thunder and Kings are tough these days. Would be great to get off to a good start with a few W’s.
Ken Strickland
December 29th, 2009
5:41 pm
ASTRO JOE-you said that Bibby is our best overall PG. Well, that’s our biggest problem. Bibby’s scoring fewer than 10PPG(9.6) and is averaging only 4.2APG in 28MPG, which barely beats out Smoove’s 3.5APG. Teague’s averaging 3.7PPG and 2.1APG in only 10.8MPG. It’s not a difficult proposition to assume if Teague was given Bibby’s MPG, and the same support from Woodson, he could give us more assists, steals, rebounds, at least as much scoring, and far superior DEF.
You like to make an issue of Bibby’s low turnover rate and abiility to protect the ball. Well, what PG wouldn’t get the same results if he controlled the ball only half the time, didn’t penetrate, and very rarely ventured below the top of the key with the ball in his hands? How can anyone look at how dominant we can be when playing solid DEF, yet make excuses for a player that’s rather one dimensional on OFF and contributes so little on the DEF?
Daniel
December 29th, 2009
5:45 pm
Guys, I am very excited about the game tonight, just like everyone else. We finally get to put a lot of this controversy to the test. Does the bigger but OLD front court of Clevland dominate the Hawks younger, smaller, quicker front court? Whose bench does the best work? Can our back court dominate? Will LeBron take over completely? Will the refs treat the Hawks fairly? (Big If) Will Clevland have a hangover?
Go Hawks.
Daniel
December 29th, 2009
5:49 pm
Ken- What Bibby brings to this team is sooo much more than just stats. If you notice when he is in the game, the team plays much more undercontrol and with confidence. His expierenc and leadership skills are his best value to this team right now. I like Teague a lot and think he will be very good in another 2 years, but you CANNOT extrapolate his stats based on minutes. He is going against 2cd and 3rd stringers in a totally different game situation. Is it really that hard to understand that an aging but still effective pg with serious big game expierence brings more to the table than a rookie pg who is only a third of the way into his first season?
Ken Strickland
December 29th, 2009
5:53 pm
We’re all hoping the Hawks can weather the next stretch of tough gms against some tough opponents fininishing at 500 of above. That’s why I’ve made such an issue when we managed to lose gms, and badly, to losing teams.
Steven A.
January 9th, 2010
9:39 pm
JOE FOR T-MAC
JOE JOHNSON “NOT A RANCHISE PLAYER” I WOULD TAKE DOMINIQUE RIGHT NOW.
SHOP JOE JOHNSON PLEASE!!!!! Dude is NOT, I repeat, is Not, a number one option. Time and Time
again “wanna be FRANCHISE PLAYER” JOE JOHNSON dissapears against the ELITE teams in the
NBA. PLEASE, RICK SUND, do us all a favor and put us out of our misery; Trade Johnson while he
still has value and take STARVIN MARVIN with him. I’d even take on T-MAC.