On to Indiana
Greetings, all-
Hope those of you who celebrated had a joyful Christmas. I spent mine with my family, including my two nephews who are in that Lego-toy car phase, so it was a lot of fun watching them enjoy their presents.
Anyway, onto the Pacers. I am at home and not with the team, so don’t have a lot to offer. I’ll say this. This is the last respite the Hawks get for awhile. Starting with the home-and-home with Cleveland, the Hawks play 11 of their next 17 against teams over .500. Seven are away, and seven are against Boston-Cleveland-Orlando. And of those “Big Three” seven, all of them are back-to-backs. It’s some pretty tough sledding. Against Indiana, the Hawks had best gather their rosebuds while they may, as it were. (Hopefully I understood the poem correctly. I was an economics major, not English.)
One interesting thing from the article I wrote for Saturday’s paper, talking to Joe Johnson, Dominique Wilkins, Steve Holman and Peachtree Hoops blogger Drew Ditzel about the season, looking back and ahead – what stuck out to me was that the predictions for wins were between 50 and 55. That means that the expectation is that the Hawks will fall off their current .714 pace. Right now, they’re on pace for 58-59 wins. But to go, say, 53-29, that means the Hawks would have to go 33-21 the rest of the way, which is .611 ball. Not bad at all, obviously, but not as good as they’ve done so far.
Looking at the next stretch, you’d have to think if they get through the next 17 anywhere above .500, it would be a success. Interesting link about Hawks’ schedule thus far. According to the formulas, the Hawks ought to be 22-6.
So, Indiana. The Pacers are without Danny Granger (torn plantar fascia) and have lost four in a row. Like I said the other day, I think the Hawks win this one, though it may be tougher than you might otherwise expect. (Standard proviso: I am wrong a lot on a variety of things.)
Anyway, something to consider watching Hawks-Pacers. Indiana has “lost seven games in which they led or were tied in the fourth quarter, including each of the past three,” according to an article by Indianapolis Star Pacers writer Mike Wells. That includes losses to Boston Dec. 22, when the Pacers led by 15 at halftime, Orlando, San Antonio and Portland.
This is off the topic, but I asked Steve Holman, the Hawks’ radio guy, to name his all-decade team. It’ll be in the Sunday paper. In checking out the story, I came upon something I’d completely forgotten about. The Hawks drafted Pau Gasol in 2001 as part of a trade to get Shareef Abdur-Rahim. Our own Mark Bradley was, praising then-GM Pete Babcock, saying that, through the trade and other moves, “he has remade a roster that ranked with the league’s worst, turning into an assemblage – might as well say it – of playoff caliber.” I’m going to have to guess Mark was not alone in his opinion.
Follow me here, though. The Hawks also got Vancouver’s first-round pick in that trade, which they traded to Indiana (used on Jamaal Tinsley) for a future first-round pick. Two years later, the Hawks used the Pacers’ pick to get Boris Diaw. And, as you know, Diaw and two first-rounders later went to Phoenix for Joe Johnson. So, maybe it wasn’t all so bad. (Though, you are free to point out, I’m going to guess the trade didn’t exactly hinge on Boris Diaw being a part of the deal.) (Sorry to ramble. I often find the long-term effects of trades kind of interesting.)
Happy Saturday and Hawks watching.
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287 comments Add your comment
O'Brien
December 27th, 2009
4:33 pm
Thanks for the link Melvin.
“I knew I could really help there,” he explained. “One of our biggest strengths is our depth and being able to wear down other teams. For me it wasn’t hard. I knew I could still be who I am, and it’s more important who finishes the game than who starts it.” said Crawford.
Thats awesome. (Which is exactly why Woody would have Chills in the game at the end, not Marvin).
I hope the Hawks can afford to resign JJ though, because having him and Crawford on the team is awesome. And that will also take some of the pressure off Teague.
JeJe
December 27th, 2009
4:39 pm
LOL @ RA.
Wow
“What I will say is that he averages more points a game than Lamar Odom, and the one thing that nobody talks about is the defense that he plays every night. What doesn’t show up in the box scores is that Marvin Williams draws some of the other teams toughest big men and holds his own with them on the defensive end of the floor and because he can stroke the three,”
1) Odom doesn’t start
2) Marvin can stroke the 3? I see him make 1 jumpshot a game, maybe 2.
The guy is as good now as he’ll ever be. He is not a star in this league, nor does he have potential to get better. I’ve said for the last 5 !@$%ing years the guy would average 18 ppg and have MIP potential, but no. He is a 6″9 athletic wing with Pippen-like wingspan, but he sucks. His defense isn’t even that great. Plus he is one hit away from being out 3 months, since every time someone touches him, he is on the ground. We’re better off starting Mo Evans and getting a guy like Ryan Anderson or JJ Redick to come in with J-CRAW off the bench.
Hell, I’d take Matt Barnes, Ryan Anderson, Redick, Vince, Pietrus, and Brandon Bass all OVER Marvin.
He is NOT going to get better, people. I am pretty sure he’s had 1 good game all year (Houston).
Someone correct me, please
northcyde
December 27th, 2009
4:44 pm
If Bibby is the offensive “glue guy”, Marvin is the defensive “glue guy”.
Don’t get me wrong. JJ is our most important offensive player, and Smoove is our most important defensive player. But Bibby and Marvin are the “glue guys” on offense and defense respectively.
On offense, Bibby gives us that dual pass and shoot threat that keeps the offense stable on most nights.
On defense, Marvin gives us a 6-9 guy who can guard on the perimeter or the inside when we employ our switches, and go on the inside to grab defensive rebounds.
Until his midrange jumper comes back to him, that’s the role Marvin plays on this team. His length and athleticism makes our switching defense that much stronger.
northcyde
December 27th, 2009
5:12 pm
When the Minnesota Timberwolves made their run to the WC Finals 6 years ago, this was their starting lineup.
PG – Sam Cassell
G – Trenton Hassell
G/F – Latrell Spreewell
PF – Kevin Garnett
C – Ervin “not Magic” Johnson
After losing in the first round for 7 consecutive years, this was the main lineup that carried them to the WC Finals in 2003 – 2004.
Why?
They were highly efficient on offense because they basically let their Big 3 ( KG, Cassell, and Spree ) take almost 60% of the team’s shots. Because unlike teams in the past, this squad was also a DEFENSIVE ballclub.
Starters Ervin Johnson and Trenton Hassell averaged 1.9 pts and 5 pts respectively. But they were the “glue guys” of the T-Wolves defensive scheme.
EJ was able to effectively guard centers and big men for 18 – 20 minutes a game as a starter, keeping KG out of foul trouble against the other team’s first unit. Hassell was able to guard 2s and 3s, allowing Spreewell to almost strictly concentrate on offense. EJ flat out sucked as an offensive player, while Hassell could hit a midrange jumper every now and then, but never really looked to shot the ball.
I’ll still contend that Marvin is merely in a bad shooting slump right now . . one of the worst in his career actually.
But he does still have value to this team on the defensive end of the floor . . . even if he doesn’t accumulate gaudy stats. When he needs defense, Woody knows that Marvin needs to be on the floor to make his switching defense work. If Crawford is hot though, he’ll opt to go with Jamal, and let the offense extend the lead or get us back into the game.
JeJe
December 27th, 2009
5:23 pm
can someone please explain to me why Bibby feels he has to be so muscular? His only offense on this team is taking jumpshots. He is so big that he has no speed or athleticism anymore. I understand he’s getting old, but why not try get skinnier and look like he did in 2002? he is way too big to be a quick point guard for him.
NO, WHATEVER SMART ALLICK, PLEASE DON’T TELL ME OUR RECORD. I KNOW WE ARE 22-8. U DONT HAVE TO FREAKING TELL ME OUR RECORD.
The point is, he can be so much quicker and athletic than he is now. He isn’t posting up guards or penetrating the lane much, so why not lose weight?
Sautee
December 27th, 2009
6:27 pm
Truth-serum,
You have stated the you personally believe Al Horford is as good as he’s going to get, but ignore the fact of his 15 double-doubles in 29 games this year, next to 20 double-doubles in 67 games last year. Explain please how that’s not an upward curve?
You’re slanted view of his stats keeps you from noticing that while the numbers themselves aren’t hugely higher, the PERCENTAGES are.
For example you make fun of his 2.5 point increase (11.5 to 14.0) without seeing that it’s 21.7% HIGHER than last year. When you were defending Woodson you talked a lot about the kind of return and increase he had in wins, and how in the business world, he would be praised for that return. Well how about a 21.7% increase in production? Wouldn’t that be highly praised in the business world?
By the way, here’s a quote from Mike Woodson:
“I have to get him more touches,” said Woodson. “If we can get Al at about 12 or 13 points and double digit rebounds…then we’re talking.”
As of today: 14.0 pts, 9.9 reb. Horford is playing exactly like his coach expects him to. So why is that not good enough for you?
Last year you criticized Horford’s shooting %, saying it was too low for a center.
This year Al has raised his shooting % from .525% to .590%, which is a 12.4% increase. How would THAT be in the business world? But do we hear one word from you? No, it’s all “there’s not much change between this year and last”
And, once again, if Horford’s stats are “derived from other power forwards playing center”, then why even post that list of shot blockers since the VAST MAJORITY of those stats were when they were up against those same “other power forwards playing center”? Somehow Horford’s stats alone are discredited?
Only if you are a hater.
And I still don’t understand how you incessantly defend Woodson, yet TOTALLY disagree with HIS CHOICE for center on his roster. Makes NO sense unless your defense of Woodson is a lie. Because you CAN’T have it both ways. Either you back Woodson totally or you do not. If you DON’T back him totally then WTF is all the nonsense you give Ken Strickland?
I’m sure, knowing you, that you’ll dodge these questions and try mightily to change the subject. Good luck with that.
Melvin
December 27th, 2009
6:54 pm
Sautee,
You are on Fire….
Jody
December 27th, 2009
7:32 pm
Marvin Williams is defenitely a solid defender, but to be honest, Josh Smith is the glue guy defensively for this team. Not only is he the leader of the this team defensively, but he is also the guy that holds everything together on the defensive end (as evidenced by the game against the Knicks and every other game in recent times the Hawks have played without him).
Ken Strickland
December 27th, 2009
7:36 pm
SAUTEE-BRAVO MY FRIEND, BRAVO!
Also, I’ve noticed that a large number of those consistently complaining about Marvin are also Woodson supporters. Since there hasn’t been a single negative comment from Woodson about Marvins overall play, especially his struggles on OFF, why haven’t any of you complained about WOODSON’S DECISION to continue starting and playing him significant mins?
richbrave
December 27th, 2009
7:40 pm
doc
December 25th, 2009
9:01 am
rb miss your energy but i know it is hard to keep up with it all. peace bro, happy holiday my friend.
merry christmas all, make it a love fest today … just because
Catch me over on the O’BRIEN side with the BRAVES. I’m there year ’round.
kwooden1
December 27th, 2009
7:48 pm
Coming to the party late, but great road win by the HAWKS last night. I’m glad they weren’t looking ahead to the Cleveland games, they just took care of business.
My first point for the Cleveland game is, “Will Joe Smith Play?” We need another big body for that game, so I anticipate we will see some Collins if Joe Smith is a no go. I can understand Woodson playing Morris over Collins the past few games, but clearly that was because Collins is a vet and didn’t need the reps. I would hope that Joe Smith is available and healthy because we can use he’s outside shot.
My second point is Bibby and Crawford have to play good defense on Moe Williams. Cleveland struggles when they don’t have a second scorer. West has been struggling, so Williams is definitely the one to look out for.
My last point is PUSH THE BALL. This is the game that Horford and Smoove and really expose Cleveland’s lack of speed at the center and PF positions. I haven’t been tracking Cleveland to much this season but it looks like they’ve gotten the message already. Varejao is on the bench and Hickson has taken his place. Doesn’t matter, because Horford is faster than any center they bring in the game, even if they play Varejao at center.
GO HAWKS!!!
Blast
December 27th, 2009
8:03 pm
Melvin,
Read the link, but it only affirms what I repeated in Sekou’s last blog. The Jamal Crawford trade for a bag of chips is going to be the biggest acquisition this season. Not Shaq, not Vince, not Turk, because we already know what those guys can do. No one has seen the impact Jamal can have on a winning team yet. He will be HUGE come playoff time.
Big Ray
December 27th, 2009
8:24 pm
Rod from College Park ,
Does this…
You Marvin supporters are hilarious. I’m done trying to explain how terrible he is.
…mean that you aren’t going to post anymore? Just curious, because besides whatever redundant stuff you have to say about Marvin….well, I just can’t remember any other insight on the Hawks from you at all. You say you’re tired or you’re done trying to explain your point of view. Pardon me if I just don’t quite believe it.
RA ,
Give me a break. I don’t have particular issues with Marvin, he is what he is. I had MAJOR issues with Sheldon. Comparing the teams of the players we DIDN’T draft is way off the cuff. Yes, I know Chris Pauls’s team sucks right now. So does Rudy Gay’s (though they’re getting better, and quickly). Brandon Roy’s team looks pretty good, though.
But all of that is besides the point. We’re talking about how those players would perform on OUR team, not on their present teams. Otherwise, you’d also have to compare GMs, owners, payroll, etc.
Ken Strickland ,
I’m past the Woody factor when it comes to clear talent. Woody didn’t hold Al Horford back. I seriously doubt he could make Chris Paul not be Chris Paul. Guys with supreme talent and supreme confidence do well. Guys without it could go either way. Horford was one of those guys. Woody has even gone so far to say that with Horford’s fundamentals and instincts, he didn’t even coach him like a rookie. I really think that the poise CP3 and Deron Williams showed with their coaches (neither Byron Scott nor Jerry Sloan have much patience for foolishness, and both are harder than Woody), would have disappeared with Woody. I really saw them as being that good, and they’re showing it even now.
Big Ray
December 27th, 2009
8:28 pm
Ken Strickland ,
Having said that, it’s clear that Marvin Williams is NOT one of those guys. He lacks the aggression and confidence, although the talent level is constantly debated. But the combination of all three is not enough to overcome Woody’s coaching style. With Horford, it was. Marvin doesn’t even know his role right now, or what to do. The guy wasn’t a starter in college, meaning he was not familiar with the responsibility level. Here he is in year 5, and Woody has to tell him to rebound and defend, since scoring is not currently his major contribution? What gives? Not a Marvin hater by a long shot, but that tells you something about his psyche, Woody’s coaching, and how difficult it can be to find a niche.
Big Ray
December 27th, 2009
8:31 pm
Melvin is right. Sautee was on FIRE!!
Now…I wonder if someboDEEZ’s NUTZ are EXTRAORDINARY enough to muster a well thought out, intelligent response or rebuttal. Or will they have to call JOE Mamma to get the answer?
truly1
December 27th, 2009
8:53 pm
Every G M misses on picks we werent the only team to pass on those guys.
truly1
December 27th, 2009
9:02 pm
now about marvin we need someone to play their role who else do you want lebron james for marvin. yea that makes sense. Their are not that many 6 foot 9 245 pound small forwards in this league. They need him again clev to guard lebron. Who do you guys want to guard lebron besides joe johnson who needs to score for us. You guys want J crawford on him how about bibby or mo evans who is in the picture on every dunk Lebron had on us last year in the playoffs.
Melvin
December 27th, 2009
9:07 pm
Big Ray,
I thought Sautee post was address to Truth-serum??????????? lol
South ga boy in the atl
December 27th, 2009
9:20 pm
Sautee – get the hose out cuz ur on fire.
Big Ray – pulling folks pants down and whipping behinds I agree with some of what you say about Marvin ( yes I’m a marvin apologist) especially the part about him trying to figure out his role. If you remember the shot at Boston last yr that should have won the game early in the yr ( except for an answered prayer by paul pierce), it was starting to look as though he was finding his role. When Josh was hurt he stepped up and became more aggressive on both ends of the floor and until he hurt his back he was taking a major step forward. I don’t think he was truly healthy the rest of the yr. Then with the addition of Jamal this yr and his scoring prowess it has Marvin really questioning what his role is. I see a much better defender and rebounder than others, I guess and offense is not a problem with this team so I’m not sure what people think Marvin should be doing. He’s as tall or taller than most 3’s and can use either hand to drive to the hole. He’s our 1st or 2nd best free throw shooter. Do u not think that if Marvin had plays ran for him and was putting up 15-20 shots a game and with his free throw percentage that he would be avg 20+ per game. Just asking Big Ray
kwooden1
December 27th, 2009
9:29 pm
My comments on Marvin Williams:
What I see is a guy that’s still physically maturing and doesn’t have complete command of his abilities. I think Marvin gets a little better each year on his drives and change of directions moves because he matures more each year. I’ve seen several post-up moves, a step-back jumper and left/right running jump hooks. So I believe his clumsiness comes from a lack of physical maturity, oppose to lack of skill. I don’t think he will every be hyper-athletic like Lebron or Wade, or have the agility of Kobe, but I believe he will be much more under control in the coming years. His defense works very well for this team and his jump-shot is prefect for our offensive. These next two weeks are really what this team needs if it’s going to be elite, not just a single change in personnel. Going against the best in the East, multiple times, will force this team to find an identity. It will also remind them of how well they’ll have to play every night to an elite team in this league.
GO HAWKS!!!
GO HAWKS!!!
Ken Strickland
December 27th, 2009
9:58 pm
BIG RAY-there’s no doubt Marvin is not playing up to his potential or past levels of performance. I hold both he and Woodson jointly responsible for that. Bottomline, he’s not nearly as bad as some would make it seem, but he’s nowhere near as effective as he could be, regardless of anything Woodson has or hasn’t done.
He’s certainly not hurting the team as far as his overall play. I like the fact Woodson appreciates his DEF contributions and board work and has continued to take advantage of those contributions by playing him. The fact Woodson didn’t hold Horford back has no relationship to his attitude, approach and track record toward developing young PG’s. His history of playing slow, limited, defensively challenged, over the hill veteran PG’s like TLue, AJohnson or MBibby extensively, even when hurt, rather than commit to giving consistent mins and opportunities to younger PG’s is well documented.
But that’s water under the bridge. If he does a better job with Teague, all can be forgiven. I believe Teague has more overall talent, but ALaw was more mature and a much better DEF player. Both he and SStaudemire were two of the most confident and top clutch players coming out of college in their respective yrs. Both were reduced to showing little confidence under Woodson’s heavy handed treatment and inconsistent opportunities.
For me, it’s just a matter of looking at how well this team has become, and wondering how much better it could be if we’d experienced a higher level of player development, retention and utilization.
BILLY KNIGHT
December 27th, 2009
10:05 pm
I CANT BELIEVE YOU GUYS ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT ME DRAFTING MARVIN HOW ABSURD YOU SO CALL HAWKS FAN BE.
BILLY KNIGHT
December 27th, 2009
10:10 pm
NOW IF I WOULD HAVE DRAFTED CHRIS PAUL YOU GUYS WOULDNT HAVE BEEN IN THE POSITION 2 DRAFT HORFORD YOU CANT HAVE IT ALL.
Ken Strickland
December 27th, 2009
10:31 pm
KWOODEN1-over 3yrs ago I gave my accessment of why Marvin gets so many of his shots blocked and has difficulty driving to the basket. He has the same problem I had, as well as DWilkins. He’s a vertical jumper, which means he has to have both feet directly under him to get any lift. He can jump as high as Smoove or anyone else if he has both feet under him. He’s not an effective one step of one foot jumper. When he drives to the basket he’s usually leaning forward and tends to stumble trying to get both feet under him to get lift. If he doesn’t get his feet under him, he doesn’t get the necessary lift and thus often gets his shot blocked.
Even when shooting his jumpshot, he springs higher than most players because he can get so much more lift when he gets his feet directly under him and jumps off both feet. This’s why I say it’s stupid for any HC to design an OFF that limits a players scoring opportunities to ISO’s and one on one play when that’s clearly his weakness. YOU ALWAYS CATER TO A PLAYERS STRENGTHS, NOT HIS WEAKNESSES.
KevinA
December 27th, 2009
10:52 pm
JeJe
December 27th, 2009
5:23 pm
can someone please explain to me why Bibby feels he has to be so muscular? His only offense on this team is taking jumpshots. He is so big that he has no speed or athleticism anymore. I understand he’s getting old, but why not try get skinnier and look like he did in 2002? he is way too big to be a quick point guard for him.
We mostly disagree on many things but I will give you credit for this one. A 13lb. lighter Bibby would prob be more effictive.
KevinA
December 27th, 2009
11:23 pm
I would like Ken to ask Marvin how his back is doing and in Marvin’s opinion how much of the off season was dedicated to rehabilitation vrs working on new skill sets. I do not want to give up on Marvin if unless he cannot break through. If the doc and the trainers think it is possible, you do not give up on a kid with this much talent. Before his back injury I thought he was progressing just fine. Marvin will be an end of the year or next year decision.
Who else on our team is playing at a lower level than expected.
Al is progressing, so is Josh. Some might consider their play exceeding expectations but I think there a are a couple of levels of growth to go. No reason to think Teague and ZaZa won’t do as well including Rando.
Slowly but surely the big’s are getting the ball more. Jamal and JJ are driving more and taking jump shots closer to the bucket. Joe Smith was just starting to come on before injury. I see better basketball in our future. I see better basketball over the next two years. What’s not to like.
Nate ArchiBALL
December 27th, 2009
11:31 pm
Again, I question if Marvin has recovered fully from his back injury. Marvin isn’t the most athletic person from the start..He’s more big / long than athletic and with a bad back his mobility and ability to jump are impaired — which may be the cause of the inconsistent jumper. Marvin isn’t quick or strong enough to beat anyone off the dribble which is why his shot get blocked or he ends up on the floor when driving to the basket.. He probably got away with that move because a size advantage in the ACC but not in the NBA. I would love to see him nail the open jumper – it would really help the Hawks offense…
Ken Strickland
December 28th, 2009
1:47 am
NATE ARCHIBALL-you certainly could be right. I do know back problems reduced Larry Bird to a shell of his former self long before his time. It also caused a premature end to the careers of former Allstar PF’s Charles Barkley and Gus Johnson, as well as David Robinson.
Along that same line, his wrist injury could be affecting on his shooting issues. Just a thought.
Clyde
December 28th, 2009
2:59 am
FIRE WOODY
ILL-logical
December 28th, 2009
9:16 am
Agree with Nate ArchiBall’s diagnosis concerning Marvin; hope that that it is not/ will not become a chronic condition because it may force some line up changes that i am not ready to trust Woodson to make in the long term(2-3 years) interest of the team.
Overall, the organization,coaching staff and team are doing fine, prehaps even better than fine recordwise. however, there is a economics principle called Stein’s Law which in essence says that that which cannot go on forever, won’t. In short, avoiding problems in the short term will lead to bigger problems later.
Today, it appears that if they continue on their current path the Hawks will win 50+ games and extend their playoff run into the second round thus assuring Woodson at least a 2 year extension (and a raise). However, the 2010-11 season has several question marks beyond Joe/ woodson’s tenure.
First, the Hawk’s fans expectations will be much higher and the financial resources to maintain the current momentum let alone the greater expectations are not there.Second, and this is apoint toward Tuesday’s game, the league will no longer sleep on the team and will prepare acoordingly.Last, can the current line up bring a championship/ don’t know the answer to this question but Marvin’s physical health raises some questions that impact the teams future.
ILL-logical
December 28th, 2009
9:23 am
Agree with Nate ArchiBall’s diagnosis concerning Marvin; hope that that it is not/ will not become a chronic condition because it may force some line up changes that i am not ready to trust Woodson to make in the long term(2-3 years) interest of the team.
Overall, the organization,coaching staff and team are doing fine, prehaps even better than fine recordwise. however, there is a economics principle called Stein’s Law which in essence says that that which cannot go on forever, won’t. In short, avoiding problems in the short term will lead to bigger problems later.
Today, it appears that if they continue on their current path the Hawks will win 50+ games and extend their playoff run into the second round thus assuring Woodson at least a 2 year extension (and a raise). However, the 2010-11 season has several question marks beyond Joe/ Woodson’s tenure.
First, the Hawk’s fans expectations will be much higher and the financial resources to maintain the current momentum let alone the greater expectations are not there.Second, and this is a point that bears watching on Tuesday’s game, the league will no longer sleep on the team and will prepare acoordingly.Last, can the current line up bring a championship? Don’t know the answer to this question but Marvin’s physical health raises some questions that impact the teams future.
O'Brien
December 28th, 2009
9:49 am
Ill-logical,
One of the biggest question marks for 2010-2011 will be JJ’s free agency. Can the Hawks resign him, given that the salary cap will probably decrease, and he might have a max offer (or close to it) to go somewhere else?
vava74
December 28th, 2009
9:56 am
FIRE CLYDE!!!!
Miss Horford
December 28th, 2009
10:11 am
Points to Consider:
Team defense when played correctly negates the need for any new players on our squad. When we play our game we’re unstoppable on D, which translates to the O.
Marvin hasn’t found his niche. His back injury stopped his progress and really sent him back to square 1. His hand problems did it before that. Marvin has shown flashes, but injury always keeps him back when he gets a chance. He’ll develop in time. Just not right now. It isn’t as much age as it is being healthy long enough to build confidence.
Bibby was slow when he was skinny. His bulk helps him be more physical. He’s been gettin after folks lately. I like the tan and the bulk.
Teague would get major minutes playing on a sorry team. He can’t get much real development time with as much as we have on the line.
Al’s inside game is coming along. Why do we question the need to put him on the All-Star team if he isn’t a quality center?
The name is Miss Horford for a good reason – he’s one Sexy Beast!
Mike is Back
December 28th, 2009
10:43 am
Doc, you make some valid points about Marvin…but how many of you can honestly say that Marvin has reached his maximum potential. Its his attitude and how he fits with his teammates and operates within the system, that is often overlooked…those intangible skills allow him to coexist as the fourth or fifth option on a team that is loaded with talent…this is a long season…I would not write him too soon.
We were saying that same thing about Diaw when he was traded. In another system Marvin might be very different…we don’t know. But to keep blaming Marvin for being the number two pick in that drafted IS LUDACRIS. LOL
Marvin had no control over that…these guys are young. I’m not saying that Marvin will ever out perform CP3 and DW. I hope that is not his goal… I hope that he is focus on winning a ring…in that context…he is a valued asset to any team…CUZ HE IS A TEAM GUY. Jezz…give the guy some credit for something. He is going to look really bad some nights…its okay…CUZ YOU GOT HIM AT A REASONABLE RATE. We didn’t blow up the salary cap resigning Marvin. He still has room to grow…which the same can be said of the team. These guys are going to continue to improve…maybe not at the pace we fans want…that is unrealistic.
He is not a bust…maybe not a Super Star…but certainly not a bust. As long as Marvin is willing to put in work…he will continue to improve. Can we at lease agree on that??? THUS FAR, he has been more than willing to do that. I think that is a testament to his character.
You get tire of people dumping on Marvin about a draft that happen for years ago…especially with the season the Hawks are having. To his credit he has remain humble and respectful through out the whole ordeal.
OF COURSE, what do I know…I always cheer for the underdog? lol
Did I mention its great to be relevant again…GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
RLP
December 28th, 2009
11:01 am
Marvin Williams Vs. Lamar Odom:
MPG:
Lamar = 30.4
Marvin = 29.0
PPG:
Lamar = 8.7
Marvin = 10.2
RPG”
Lamar = 8.5
Marvin = 5.3
APG:
Lamar = 3.5
Marvin = 1.1
SPG:
Lamar = 0.9
Marvin = 0.8
BPG:
Lamar = 0.8
Marvin = 0.6
FG%:
Lamar = 42.3%
Marvin = 41.7%
FT%:
Lamar = 61.5%
Marvin = 82.2%
3P%:
Lamar = 28.9%
Marvin = 35.9%
I was like a lot of you in thinking that Lamar Odom was much better than Marvin. However, after looking at the side by side comparisons above I think they are very close. Although Marvin does start and Lamar does not their MPG is almost the same. The biggest difference I see in the two is that Odom is 29 and on the downhill side of his career and Marvin is 23. I cannot say that Marvin has the potential to be great but he is not a bad option on his team.
I am neither an apologist for Marvin nor a detractor but I do not think he is a bad fifth starter for this team.
Astro Joe
December 28th, 2009
11:19 am
Out of curiosity, if Marvin scored 5-6 more points per game, where would those points come from? Josh Smith? Joe? Crawford? Because the only way they could be incremental points is if the team were increasing offensive possessions or if he were taking shot attempts away from a less efficient player. Marvin is obviously a deferential player and with the improvement in Horford, maturing of Josh and acquisition of Crawford, he has deferred himself into a traditional “role player”. But he is NOT hurting the team (which is the only thing that matters). He doesn’t shot excessively, doesn’t play outside of his skill set nor does he take poor shot attempts.
Lastly, you can’t applaud Crawford’s quote about “it only matters who finishes games” AND ask why Marvin is starting. Woody has proven for several years now, that who starts and finishes are completely different. Rather it was Chill for 2-3 years, Flip or now Crawford, he will finish the game with the 5 that he feels will deliver the victory. Marvin gives the team the best opportunity to set the defensive tone early in a game. And ultimately, this team wins games based on their defense and NOT by having 5 offensive ninjas on the floor.
O'Brien
December 28th, 2009
11:33 am
Astro Joe,
I am not concerned about Marvin’s ppg. What I want from him is some consistency, and I would like to see him make impact plays. Like when the other team is making a run, it would be nice to see Marvin make a big 3 point shot (like he did against Boston last year). Or at the end of the half when he’s wide open, make the 3 that can give the Hawks some momentum.
And when the Hawks are settling for jump shots, I would like to see Marvin score when he drives (instead of getting his shot blocked, and the other team ends up on a fast break because Marvin falls down.
If we had Chills, I would prefer him starting, because he impacts the game without needing the ball. And if Marvin is coming off the bench, I think he would get more shots and be more productive. That being said, I am okay with Marvin starting, because Woody usually goes with the correct guys at the end of games.
Although I’m very disappointed in him, Marvin hasn’t really cost us games yet. Now in the playoffs, hopefully he can step his game up and surprise some people, because we will need him (especially against Pierce and LeBron).
JeJe
December 28th, 2009
11:40 am
If it’s about who finishes and not starts, why not just start the BETTER players in the first place?
For example, why the heck did we start Royal Ivey all those games? We never won with him on this team. We were better off starting The Closer or someone who would give us a better chance of winning.
Likewise, I think starting Crawford instead of Marvin and letting Marvin be the key player off the bench will help Marvin develop more and be more aggressive rather than the awkward guy in the corner who scores 6 points every other game
Rufus1
December 28th, 2009
12:07 pm
RLP
You forgot, ODOM makes 10mil a year..Marvin 7.5mil.
What we all know is that Marvin maybe the difference between being very good and great. The thought that we a miss a golden opportunity because of his current performance, upsets people. We are a fan base looking for RESPECT and we need all of our player playing at high level, just to get a little respect. We had higher expectation than his performance so far(some of us) and he has been disappointing, but not terrible.
It make take most of the year for him to find his niche on this team, but I am willing to wait.
RLP
December 28th, 2009
12:12 pm
One of the things that really disappointed me in the Denver game was the fact that in two or three really important points in the game when a score could have had a significant impact on the game’s momentum Marvin was given wide open three point shots that were off the mark. My hope is that when those opportunities come in the future he has better success.
Mychelfromatl
December 28th, 2009
12:14 pm
WOW!!!!
The Hawks are about to play their biggest games of the season so far and all you simpletons have to talk about is this same ol’ Marvin S**t. SMDH!!!!
South ga boy in the atl
December 28th, 2009
12:39 pm
Thank you Nate archiballs, mike is back, and Clyde for backing me up on this most recent Marvin controversy that doc and I and others re-ignited about 3 days ago. Injury, potential, and role on the team are legitimate points to bring up, and would be taken that way if we were talking about other players on the team. But not when people start harping on Marvin. Some lose the power of objective reason and become irrational haters. Are there some flaws in marvin’s game: of course there are as there are with every player this side of Michael. But to throw him under the bus the way some do o. This blog is ludicrus. He was injured last yr just as he was showing great improvement. He can stroke the three but has to become more consistant and just as he was starting to see a role for himself along comes Jamal (don’t get me wrong, love Jamal) and his role is undefined again. H plays good defense ( despite what other miopic people say) and pulls important boards. I say again “what’s not to like” you can’t have 5 starters avg 20 points a game with Jamal coming off the bench doing it as well. Chill out Marvin watchers. He’s 23
MannyT
December 28th, 2009
12:41 pm
Melvin,
Speaking of getting something for nothing, check out the latest NBA doomsday scenario from Bill Simmons. If we end up with Chris Paul via fire sale down the road, would that quiet the Marvin negativity?
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/091223&sportCat=nba
Not saying that we are big spenders, but maybe Sund has another magic beans trade card in his bag. If he can get Crawford, maybe there is another deal to be had in a bad economy.
By the way, I believe there is a CIAA sighting in Atlanta tomorrow. While we watch the Haws & Cavs, Tech plays Winston Salem State.
BWAF
Miss Horford
December 28th, 2009
12:41 pm
Next few weeks should prove hard for our Hawks. Any team, even the best would have a tough time going over .500 during the next few. I think we’ve got a good shot against Cleveland. It all hinges on solid team D and using our speed down low on offense. Horford is gonna shine. He’s proving he can use his speed to dominate slow footed “true” centers. I won’t predict 2 wins, but I pray for two hard fought games to the wire regardless of the outcome we can be proud. I predict 1-1 during the next 2.
newkid
December 28th, 2009
2:29 pm
AJ said:
” But he is NOT hurting the team (which is the only thing that matters).”
Do you really believe that’s “…the only thing that matters.”? Is a GM to select and retain players based upon a ‘NO’ answer to the question “is he hurting the team?”. If that were the case, wouldn’t the construct of most teams be quite different? Does Mitch, in tweaking last season’s O’Brien trophy winners, ask himself: “If I acquire Ron Ron, will he HURT the Lakers? Or does he ask: “Is Ron Ron the best available talent to HELLP my core bring yet another O’Brien to the Staples Center”? Two completely different approaches, arent they? How many of us would hire/retain associates in our business ventures based upon a ‘no’ answer to the question “does he hurt the team?”.
Okay, so I suppose you could argue that if he’s not hurting, he must be helping. To that I say in my best Dikta impersonation: C’mon man!
Again from a Carolina guy, I say we’re 21 & 8 inspite of – not because of – Marvin’s contributions to this point in the current campaign. Hopefully we’ll see a drastic uptick in the fraction of the side’s weight he carries for the remainder of the season (or for however longer Sund decides to swallow that “…he’s not hurting…” absense of logic).
Astro Joe
December 28th, 2009
2:54 pm
newkid, IMO, Marvin helped this team up until that past 29 games. His contract was based on past performance. Again, his performance is disappointing but it is NOT negatively impacting the team. He has gone from the 4th scoring option to the 5th. Wow! I’m not commenting on what happened in some distant draft selection nor the contract signed over the summer. I’m only dealing with the here and now… and here and now, his slump hasn;t resulted in him becoming a turnover machine, foul magnet nor malcontent.
OB, I agree, when he does get one of his 6-7 chances to shoot, he should do a better job converting. I’m grateful that he doesn’t work outside of his skill set (as we have seen others do) and try to do too much to “make up” for his deficiencies. I learned a term in my work life… “dumb energetic”. That describes workers who aggressively screw things up in an attempt to “do something”. While Marvin works through these issues, I am thrilled that he is NOT a dumb energetic.
Here’s my guess… this is likely Marvin’s first bad year as a basketball player in his life. Let’s see how he responds over the long-haul.
Astro Joe
December 28th, 2009
3:38 pm
Interesting, in Joe’s last two seasons with Phoenix (when he became a full-time starter), he averaged 40 minutes/game. He is on pace to play fewer than 38 minutes for the first time since he started more than 35 games as a pro.
Marvin is playing about 15% fewer minutes per game this season. His scoring and rebound per game averages are likewise down about 15%. However, his steals per minute and blocks per minute have increased year-over-year. His 3-point FG% and free throw percentages are both slightly up while his overall FG% is considerably down. Likewise, his trips to the free throw line are considerably down from last year. Last year, he shot the ball about 15 times per game (between FG and FT attempts)… this year he is only shooting 11 times per game. Meanwhile, the team is scoring about 7 points more per game than last year.
Rod from College Park
December 28th, 2009
4:08 pm
Big Ray,
“Does this…
You Marvin supporters are hilarious. I’m done trying to explain how terrible he is.
…mean that you aren’t going to post anymore? Just curious, because besides whatever redundant stuff you have to say about Marvin….well, I just can’t remember any other insight on the Hawks from you at all. You say you’re tired or you’re done trying to explain your point of view. Pardon me if I just don’t quite believe it.”
It means what it says. I am going to stop TRYING TO EXPLAIN. All the points I have raised about Marvin from two years ago to today have been proven true. He is not good. He is not worth the 7.5 to 8 mill per year we pay him. We should have signed Chills for that money, or Ariza or Artest, or traded for Steven Jackson….. He is not a top 10 small forward in the league. He is not our best perimeter defender. He is not better than Josh. He will not become and elite player in the league. He is not better than Danny Granger. He can not guard the top 3’s in the league. He falls a lot. He has no handles. He can’t post up smaller players and score consistently. He is the wink link in our starting lineup. All of these were debates I have had with many on this board to include (Nireclown, Doc, Big Ray, Sautee, O’Brien, Ken Strickland, terrell barron………..
I will ask you Marvin supporters this. What will Marvin do when the teams we play actually check him? Will he be able to score then?
Astro Joe
December 28th, 2009
4:08 pm
Stats notwithstanding, Marvin has clearly regressed this year.
Oh yeah, anyone notice what Mo Evans has done in the past 5 games? 4-23 from the field including 1-12 from distance. And 1 more total rebound than fouls over the same 5 games.