On to Indiana
Greetings, all-
Hope those of you who celebrated had a joyful Christmas. I spent mine with my family, including my two nephews who are in that Lego-toy car phase, so it was a lot of fun watching them enjoy their presents.
Anyway, onto the Pacers. I am at home and not with the team, so don’t have a lot to offer. I’ll say this. This is the last respite the Hawks get for awhile. Starting with the home-and-home with Cleveland, the Hawks play 11 of their next 17 against teams over .500. Seven are away, and seven are against Boston-Cleveland-Orlando. And of those “Big Three” seven, all of them are back-to-backs. It’s some pretty tough sledding. Against Indiana, the Hawks had best gather their rosebuds while they may, as it were. (Hopefully I understood the poem correctly. I was an economics major, not English.)
One interesting thing from the article I wrote for Saturday’s paper, talking to Joe Johnson, Dominique Wilkins, Steve Holman and Peachtree Hoops blogger Drew Ditzel about the season, looking back and ahead – what stuck out to me was that the predictions for wins were between 50 and 55. That means that the expectation is that the Hawks will fall off their current .714 pace. Right now, they’re on pace for 58-59 wins. But to go, say, 53-29, that means the Hawks would have to go 33-21 the rest of the way, which is .611 ball. Not bad at all, obviously, but not as good as they’ve done so far.
Looking at the next stretch, you’d have to think if they get through the next 17 anywhere above .500, it would be a success. Interesting link about Hawks’ schedule thus far. According to the formulas, the Hawks ought to be 22-6.
So, Indiana. The Pacers are without Danny Granger (torn plantar fascia) and have lost four in a row. Like I said the other day, I think the Hawks win this one, though it may be tougher than you might otherwise expect. (Standard proviso: I am wrong a lot on a variety of things.)
Anyway, something to consider watching Hawks-Pacers. Indiana has “lost seven games in which they led or were tied in the fourth quarter, including each of the past three,” according to an article by Indianapolis Star Pacers writer Mike Wells. That includes losses to Boston Dec. 22, when the Pacers led by 15 at halftime, Orlando, San Antonio and Portland.
This is off the topic, but I asked Steve Holman, the Hawks’ radio guy, to name his all-decade team. It’ll be in the Sunday paper. In checking out the story, I came upon something I’d completely forgotten about. The Hawks drafted Pau Gasol in 2001 as part of a trade to get Shareef Abdur-Rahim. Our own Mark Bradley was, praising then-GM Pete Babcock, saying that, through the trade and other moves, “he has remade a roster that ranked with the league’s worst, turning into an assemblage – might as well say it – of playoff caliber.” I’m going to have to guess Mark was not alone in his opinion.
Follow me here, though. The Hawks also got Vancouver’s first-round pick in that trade, which they traded to Indiana (used on Jamaal Tinsley) for a future first-round pick. Two years later, the Hawks used the Pacers’ pick to get Boris Diaw. And, as you know, Diaw and two first-rounders later went to Phoenix for Joe Johnson. So, maybe it wasn’t all so bad. (Though, you are free to point out, I’m going to guess the trade didn’t exactly hinge on Boris Diaw being a part of the deal.) (Sorry to ramble. I often find the long-term effects of trades kind of interesting.)
Happy Saturday and Hawks watching.
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287 comments Add your comment
BONE
December 26th, 2009
7:41 pm
I meant everybody except Horford is not playing D
BONE
December 26th, 2009
7:44 pm
Now the pacers are hitting shots
Mychelfromatl
December 26th, 2009
7:44 pm
So I’m guessing unless Joe Smith plays Tuesday, we’re going with an 8-man rotation against Cleveland.
BONE
December 26th, 2009
7:47 pm
Damn marv lol
Blast
December 26th, 2009
7:47 pm
Hawks have stopped moving the ball.
Airball, Marvin!
niremetal
December 26th, 2009
7:54 pm
I’ve always thought that a player should be credited with an assist in a situation like that, where Horford made a great pass to Joe, Joe got to the line off a shooting foul as a direct result, and then hit free throws.
niremetal
December 26th, 2009
7:56 pm
Hawks Starters 45, Pacers Starters 12
Pacers Bench 21, Hawks Bench, 2
BONE
December 26th, 2009
8:01 pm
It’s so quiet u can hear roaches tapdancing
Melvin
December 26th, 2009
8:06 pm
Hawks bench 15+ mins, Pacers – 40+ mins…
BONE
December 26th, 2009
8:07 pm
The bench has been absolutely terrible
South ga boy in the atl
December 26th, 2009
8:08 pm
Doc not trying to slam chills, just trying to be like big Ray and be objective. I can’t fAult Chill’s for getting as much money as he can but there was no way a backup with the ugliest jump shot in the entire NBA was worth 6 mil a yr. If he was then Mo Evans should get about 10 mil a yr. At least Marvin is getting paid starter money and “potential” money. Chill’s had knotts on his head from bumping into his ceiling.
LL Cool Scott
December 26th, 2009
8:26 pm
Come on now, Billy Knight apologists… You’re defending the guy who passed on 2 of the top 15 players in the league in consecutive drafts. You can’t be serious when suggesting we’d be better off without Chris Paul and/or Brandon Roy. Try and be a little objective.
doc
December 26th, 2009
8:28 pm
south, problem is chills was playing important minutes at the end of games that marvin couldnt fill because he was a liability. we now have a 10 mil a yr no 6 man dont we? 6 mil for competence that marvin doesnt bring because he hasnt justifying salary gotten out of the gutter to begin to reach his ceiling is going in the wrong direction when it comes to.
BONE
December 26th, 2009
8:33 pm
whats with those alley oops to bibby
bigdave
December 26th, 2009
8:33 pm
lol @ Hansbrough
Mychelfromatl
December 26th, 2009
8:34 pm
Wooooowwwww Tyler
Is that what happens when whiteboys try to jam LMAO??!!!
Sorry I couldn’t resist, now I’m going to timeout.
Mychelfromatl
December 26th, 2009
8:37 pm
Damn Tyler’s balling now.
LL Cool Scott
December 26th, 2009
8:39 pm
Marvin and Hansbrough would be absolutely dominant in the WNBA.
Jody
December 26th, 2009
8:40 pm
LL Cool Scott,
Co-sign on 8:26 p.m. post.
Kiki
December 26th, 2009
8:41 pm
Some rest to the starters, please?
Ken Sugiura
December 26th, 2009
8:45 pm
Joe Smith is expected to practice when the team comes back from Indy. I’m not sure if that means he’ll play, but hopefully he will.
LL Cool Scott
December 26th, 2009
8:45 pm
HOLY CRAP! Josh is achingly close to the fabled “Cinco” tonight. One more block, steal, and assist and he’s got it.
BONE
December 26th, 2009
8:46 pm
Al is raping the pacers
Melvin
December 26th, 2009
8:47 pm
Hopefully Woody will play Teague extended mins in the 4th. If I’m not mistaken, Indiana is his home state…
Kiki
December 26th, 2009
8:49 pm
MVPs of this game so far: Josh and the undersized one!!!
Ken Sugiura
December 26th, 2009
8:50 pm
And, sorry, Benjamin. All of my English teachers – to say nothing of the copy desk at the paper – are lowering their heads in shame right now.
Ken Sugiura
December 26th, 2009
8:53 pm
Jamal seems to fall down a lot on jump shots.
Mychelfromatl
December 26th, 2009
8:58 pm
Teague needs to play the rest of this game, expecially if he’s gonna get any significant pt against Cleveland.
Melvin
December 26th, 2009
8:59 pm
Why is Hordford still in the game?????????
rms
December 26th, 2009
9:06 pm
Whats up with that Ken, Jamal falling down on his jump shots
Ken Sugiura
December 26th, 2009
9:07 pm
i’d say he’s looking for a foul. it generally doesn’t seem to work.
South ga boy in the atl
December 26th, 2009
9:13 pm
Doc. Didn’t quite understAnd some of that last post other than the “Marvin sux” part. It’s legitimate to ? Marvin s salary this yr but u have to see the end of the contract to see whether a guy has justified the money or not. Many times a guy is overpaid at the begining and underpaid at the end or vice versa. It all depends on the situation whether Marvin is in at the end of the game or not. When we need defense and more size to rebound then he is in at the end but if we are behind by 5 and need Jamal and Joe to be able to penetrate and bibby to kick to for a 3 to catch up then u see Jamal, Joe and bibby at the end. Can u honestly say that chill’s would be doing anything but riding the pine at the end of a game, on this team, all the time. And I stillhavent heard you say whether you would take him as a backup over Mo, especially for an extra 4 mil a yr. And I’m sorry I guess I have missed all those headlines of how chills is tearing up all of Europe in that glorifies D league that he plays in now. And I missed all the offers the Hawks recieved last offseason for the rights to chills. Oh that’s right there weren’t any. I guess teams aren’t lineing up to pay 6 mil to a backup rebounder with little to no scoring potential. If you want to make your case against Marvin then so be it but don’t tell me how everyone is pining away to have chills over Marvin. There may be a few Marvin haters but not to many who no how to judge the current and future potential of a NBA basketball player.
Melvin
December 26th, 2009
9:19 pm
How ironic, on a day where a Marvin/Chills debate developed, Marvin has a DNP-CD in the 4th qtr in a game where the other 4 starters played cruical mins in the 4th…
cp
December 26th, 2009
9:39 pm
Nice work by the starters. Horford and Josh went to work…..At what point do the Hawks think about moving Marvin? I’m sorry but year after year its the same excuses, he is young, he will improve, he just needs more touches, etc etc etc. At this point it looks like Marvin is what he is which is an avg small forward. Ive tried to hold out hope for him but I’m just not seeing it. I would easily take Chills over Marvin at this point. Hell give me Gerald Green over Marvin. I’m sure Gerald can score 10 points with those type of minutes and would be a lot cheaper. Its time to stop using his age as an excuse. Its guys who came out in the same draft and even later drafts that have surpassed him as far as production.
Wabe
December 26th, 2009
9:41 pm
Instead of having the size debate with Horford, we should be asking whether this team has a legit 3-man. Both Marvin/Mo Evans seem like rotational guys to me. Neither one of them seems to possess the abilities to play consistent roles on the floor. Both Marvin/Mo are asked to simply play their roles. Make the most of the opportunities given on the offensive end and play solid defense/rebound. Do you guys think either one does that on a high level consistently? A high enough level to be a legit starter?
I see this issue to be of greater concern than Horford’s size issue. We talk about Horford vs other dominant big men in the game today, but the league is also full of dominant wing-men that possess the ability to take over games. Does Marvin offer any advantages when matching up with the Pierce’s, Lebron’s, Melo’s? If he’s not a primary option on the offensive end, then he must possess the ability to be a lockdown defender at that position, but he doesn’t live up to that title.
I’m not trying to come off as a Marvin hater, but the 3 spot is one I feel we’re not getting enough production from this season. Marvin’s role is as simple as can be – knock down open looks (he sees plenty) and play solid defense. He’s definately a streaky shooter and isn’t a great defender. He’s good, but at the end of a tight game, who do you think is gonna be covering the hot hand? Marvin or JJ?
Marvin’s a role player. He’d be a much better fit coming off the bench. However, I don’t see Mo Evans as being the answer to plug into the starting lineup. I’m not calling for trades or moves to be made, but if anybody is to jump on a Hawks weakness, it’d be hard to look past the Williams/Evans combo at 3.
South ga boy in the atl
December 26th, 2009
9:41 pm
How ironic that people would take such a short sided view on a 23 yr old starting small forward in the NBA on a elite or near elite team. Oh no wait a minute the Marvin haters are the one talking about one game. Well there goes reason and any hope for objectiveness
Wabe
December 26th, 2009
9:42 pm
By the way, great game tonite. Did what we needed to do and got a W.
Big games coming up this week against those Cavs. Swept 4-0 last season in the playoffs. Hard to argue that the Hawks aren’t thinking of these next 2 as barometer games.
Jody
December 26th, 2009
9:48 pm
Question. Why is Marvin William’s age always used as an excuse when he plays poorly and that excuse is never used for Josh smith who pratically the same age? I’m not trying to hate, but it seems to continue to play the age card for a guy who has been in the league for 5 years now is a weak and lame excuse.
O'Brien
December 26th, 2009
9:53 pm
South ga boy in the atl,
As Melvin pointed out, Woody always played Chills at the end of close games. Not Marvin. That tells me that the coach has more confidence in Chills. And Marvin has a smooth jump shot, but what is he doing with it? Getting blocked in the lane, or going 1-4 like he did tonight?
Compared to Marvin, Chills has a higher avg (in points and rebounds), and is a career 52% shooter (36% from 3). Marvin is a career 45% shooter (31% from 3). I dont think Chills is worth $7.5 mil, and neither is Marvin. But all things being equal, I would take Chills.
As for the game tonight, I was disappointed that Teague was -21. What was he doing out there?
And for those who keep talking about Horford, all he does is go out and give you 25 pts, 19 rebs, and 5 blocks. If only we had a real center…
Great win Hawks.
Wabe,
After being blown out by Orlando last season, and in the preseason, the Hawks wanted to send Orlando a message. But instead, Orlando outscored the Hawks by 29 in the second half.
That being said, I’m with you. Lets beat Cleveland back to back, and let them know that we are legitimate contenders for best in the east.
South ga boy in the atl
December 26th, 2009
9:54 pm
Wane Now let me see you were talking about size and al but you would take chills who is 2 inches shorter than Marvin at the 3. Hmmmm. Doesn’t compute. I guess you Marvin haters would think that having 2 more top scorers on the Lakers would mean they would avg scoring 200 points a night. There is only one ball guys. You can only have so many guys averaging 15-20 points a night. Yes Marvin had a bad night but bibby had 8 points with probably more min than Marvin and where is the outrage.
Wabe
December 26th, 2009
10:05 pm
You obviously don’t get me man.
I didn’t mention anything about size when talking about Marvin. A couple of bloggers here often talk about our lack of size that Horford offers against other centers in the league. I simply said that fans should be more concerned with Marvin/Mo Evans inconsistent play at SF instead of talking about our lack of size.
I never mentioned anything about Chills. I’m simply suggesting that our SF’s play hasn’t been consistent. Neither Marvin/Mo are lockdown defenders, and neither one of them are the primary options on offense. We lack a “starter” at the 3.
Jody
December 26th, 2009
10:06 pm
According to pre-draft measurements, Josh Childress is 6′7.25″ with shoes and Marvin Williams is 6′8.25″ with shoes. Just sayin’.
Jody
December 26th, 2009
10:09 pm
Wabe,
As one who thinks the Hawks could use more help inside, I think you make an excellent point and it’s something to watch going forward into the offseason.
Melvin
December 26th, 2009
10:23 pm
South,
“How ironic that people would take such a short sided view on a 23 yr old starting small forward in the NBA on a elite or near elite team.”
To say we are taking a short view and than reference Marvin being 23yrs old, is like standing on both sides of the fence is it?????
Jody,
Good fine on the Marvin/Chill measurements, I would like to add that I saw both guys up close in person and I think they are close in height than the numbers. I guess if you measure Marvin flat on his stomach, you would get an extra inch b/c he like to stand with a slight tilt (hence, the duck reference)…lol
South ga boy in the atl
December 26th, 2009
10:25 pm
Wabe My bad if you weren’t talking about size ip front. I’ll try chill out, no pun intended lol. But dude I just don’t know wht you expect from Marvin at this early point in his career. For example, if you dropped LeBron in at the 3 on our team his points per game would drop by 7 or 8 because there is only one BALL. Is Marvin suppose to hog the ball the way jj does, according to so many on this blog, iso Marvin would cause some ppl to jump off the top of the atl s tallest buildings. Should he snatch the ball away from bibby and chuck 10 three s a game, should he move al off the blocks to call for the ball every time down. Every time he pulls A board should he mimick smoove and run the break himself and pull up for a jumper even if it’s a 2 on 4 break. Exactly which one of these manuevers would you have him do. As I said earlier, we have the 4th best offense in the league and still your complaining about not enough offense from Marvin. Again sorry bout the mis interpretation on ur earlier post. My bad on that.
Miss Horford
December 26th, 2009
10:34 pm
What a night for Josh & Al and all you can blog about is Marvin? What’s up with that? We all realize Marvin’s struggles to fit into our offense. We all realize Chills probably ain’t comin back. Props to Tyler for fighting hard.
Wabe
December 26th, 2009
10:37 pm
To be completely honest with you South GA, Marvin shows flashes, just can’t put it together. I get that he’s only 23, but I’m not buying into his “youngster” status anymore. There are plenty of young SF’s doing much more than Marvin’s done to this point in his career.
I hate to play the draft stock game, but look at what the Thunder have down there with Durant. Both Durant and Williams played one year in college and then jumped. Both were drafted #2 overall, but Durant is clearly ahead of Marvin at this point in his career. I hate to compare Marvin to an up and coming superstar in the league, doesn’t seem fair, especially judging him based on draft positioning. But, the point I’m stressing is there are other young SF’s in the league that are far beyond where Marvin is and they’ve spent less time in the league than he has.
Let’s just call it like we see it, he’s not a STUD. What hurts him is his draft positioning. The guy isn’t a bad player, just not a STUD. But, with the #2 pick comes expectations, and it’s fair to say he hasn’t lived up to them. I’d buy into the “he doesn’t get enough touches” argument if he made the most of the ones he’s got. But, he just doesn’t do that. He’s too streaky when it comes to shooting, and when attacking the basket, at times, it seems he has no intent to finish strong – just draw contact. He doesn’t completely lock people up on the defensive end, something that other SF’s have been payed to do in this league (Bowen/Battier). That leads me to think his role isn’t being fulfilled.
RLP
December 26th, 2009
10:44 pm
After nine games on Ken’s ten game prediction the Hawks have 7 wins and 2 losses. So anyone who predicted a 7-3 or 8-2 record is right on schedule.
doc
December 26th, 2009
10:50 pm
wabe, with a starting spot comes expectations especially when this is what the fourth year as a starter? marvin is not coming close to them. he is in a huge slump at both ends of the floor. no progress seen yet this year on a team that has to have organic growth. agree with the comments though this whole blog is beginning to look like rod won us over. i was pro marvin last year thinking he was growing, just dont see it thus far this year and have not sen him do what he did before his back went out on him.
RA
December 26th, 2009
10:52 pm
First off, I’m not an apologist for Marvin Williams. What I will say is that he averages more points a game than Lamar Odom, and the one thing that nobody talks about is the defense that he plays every night. What doesn’t show up in the box scores is that Marvin Williams draws some of the other teams toughest big men and holds his own with them on the defensive end of the floor and because he can stroke the three, they don’t dare leave him to help inside as much as they should. Now what that translates into is more touches and shots for Horford and Smoove. Truth, Marvin isn’t a “studd,” but does he need to be? We’ve got five or six players on this team that can burn a team for 20+ points on any given night. Do we really need Marvin to avarage 20 points himself or can other guys do it while he concentrates on defending, rebounding, and taking the shot when it’s there? I don’t know what people expected out of Marvin Williams and I don’t care, but what I can say is that over the years, there have been a lot of first and second picks over all that NEVER became studs, never even became good complementary pieces for that matter. Now, maybe Marvin will become a stud and maybe he’ll just be what he is now, a nice complementary piece on a good team, but either way, he’s a Hawk, and until he wears another uniform, I’m going to root for him. I’m sorry if some of you never will.