Live from Denver International Airport…
Denver – This is a little later than promised (something the editors at my paper have heard more than a few times from me). I thought there’d be Internet access on the plane, but there was not. (I’ve since landed, and am now at a little table finishing up, before going to get my car.)
Anyway, my thoughts on Minnesota.
As I watched the game in the estimable company of Hawks sideline reporter James Verrett and Hawks PR man Arthur Triche, my impression was that the game was a little raggedy, that the Hawks weren’t really sharp and no one, save Joe Johnson and Jamal Crawford, played all that well. Minnesota was getting open looks at the basket and had more energy.
The man the Hawks call "Big Country"
But, looking at the box score, and certainly the final score, it would certainly indicate that the Hawks dominated. The Hawks shot 48.9 percent and held Minnnesota to 41.1 and forced 22 turnovers. They were 9 for 20 from 3-point range and assisted on more than half of their baskets (22 of 43). They only turned the ball over 10 times.
So it made me wonder if I’ve come to judge this team with an overly critical eye, or if I was focused on how many fouls the Hawks took (29, their second-highest total of the season) and their free-throw shooting (17 for 25), or if the Hawks actually didn’t play all that great but still managed to deliver a 26-point beatdown, which is the Timberwolves second-worst loss of the year, which, given that it’s the Timberwolves, is saying something.
Anyway, old news. Onto the Nuggets. Don’t know what you remember from last time, but a refresher. The Hawks were coming back to Philips after the West Coast trip that ended with the blowout loss to Charlotte. It was the second night of a back-to-back, while Denver was in Atlanta for a day or two. To that point, it was their biggest win of the season, I’d argue, a 125-100 win. The Hawks shot 54.5 percent from the floor and outrebounded Denver 44-36. Interestingly, the Nuggets shot 41 free throws, making 36, both season highs for Hawks opponents. The Hawks took 33 fouls, a season high.
For what it’s worth, when I did my story about what statistics Mike Woodson and Rick Sund use, I found a story online about how the Nuggets director of qualitative analysis – can you imagine Red Auerbach having one of those? – was helping the team. George Karl sounded what gave like begrudging credit to him for helping shape the strategy to “winning the free-throw line.”
You'd think a diagram on free-throw shooting form wouldn't have the off hand placed under the ball. Nice kicks, though.
Using stats through Monday, Denver was averaging 32.7 free throws per game, far and away best in the league. The second-best team was Orlando at 28.3. The gap between Denver and Orlando was about the same as the one between Orlando and the No. 20 team in the league. (The Hawks were at 23.6)
Getting to the line, as I imagine Karl himself would say, is only part of the equation. Some of the teams close to the top are Charlotte, Washington and Toronto.
Digression alert: In the pursuit of my own quantitative analysis, I just looked at how the division leaders ranked in a number of statistics in search of “What do all good teams do?” Leaving out point differential, my parameters were to find which statistic has the most division leaders in the top 10.
Two had five of the division leaders – opponents points per game and opponents field goal percentage. Perhaps you might have guessed it.
Opponents PPG top 10 – Boston, Portland, Charlotte, Cleveland, Lakers, Detroit, Oklahoma City, Orlando, Dallas, San Antonio. (Hawks are 11)
Opponents FG pct. top 10 – Lakers, Cleveland, Boston, Dallas, Portland, Indiana, Orlando, Oklahoma City, Charlotte, Chicago. (Hawks are 18) (I guess there is a reason Mike Woodson talks about this all the time. I think it’s his favorite statistic. He wants the team to get to 43, 44 percent. Before Minnesota, the Hawks were 45.9.)
end digression
Back to Denver: The thing that I remember most about that game (it was the first game I covered in place of Sekou) was Josh Smith’s block of Chris Andersen, and how he was just all over the floor – 22 points, nine rebounds, seven assists, six blocks and one turnover. Also, Denver was without Kenyon Martin and J.R. Smith. The Nuggets should have them in the lineup, but might not have Chauncey Billups. He was limited in practice Monday and is unsure if he’ll be able to return against the Hawks. That, obviously, is significant.
For what it’s worth, Martin averaged 14.5 points and five rebounds, shooting 56.5 percent from the floor in two games last year against the Hawks.
Two nba.com links on your favorite coach (I guess I’m being literal for some, sarcastic for others).
Woodson as early coach of the year candidate.
Denver Post Nuggets beat writer Ben Hochman reports that Karl, who, along with Woodson and Phil Jackson are the only three coaches in the league (I think) on the last year of their contracts (and Jackson is not at all in the same category as Woodson and Karl because Jackson can just say the word and he can come back) has been offered a three-year extension worth $11 million.
On its way to George Karl's house.
Hawks as role models for the Timberwolves, according to the Star-Tribune.
Dime magazine weighs in on if the Hawks can win a championship.
Don’t know if you saw it, but my story on the Hawks’ leading the league in fewest turnovers. I saw Woodson reading it yesterday before the game. That was kind of a weird experience. Part of me wanted to see what he had to say, but, I suppose, another part of me didn’t. I left.
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338 comments Add your comment
Big Ray
December 23rd, 2009
11:24 pm
Well, I knew they would want revenge, and it seems they got it.
I’m still trying to understand the math here: Al goes for 18 and 11, but he is labeled the weak link.
Nene gets 15 and 8, and he’s a star post player. It must be a dyslexia thing.
JR Smith goes for 41, nearly all of it from the 3 point arc and Carmelo Anthonly gets 24…
….but we lost because we gave up a ton of points…in the PAINT??? Good God, I don’t think I could possibly get drunk enough to understand that math. But whatever. Everybody has to have a hobby. Player hating is just another example…
Mr. Hawkdafied
December 23rd, 2009
11:25 pm
man our team needs some help. we cant play defense and we cant score. we may need to rebuild again. i think Joe and Marvin and moe is the problem. they all think they are all that but they are not. we need TEAM PLAYERS or get a star or coach such as SAM or Tracy mac
Dan
December 23rd, 2009
11:26 pm
JR Smith a classless THUG!!! Somebody needs to show this ahole the floor.
Reggie (The Bird and Indian)
December 23rd, 2009
11:26 pm
Wow.
JeJe
December 23rd, 2009
11:27 pm
LOL bigdave, I agree 100000% percent
This team has NO ONE that will commit a hard foul. All we have is a bunch of soft guys who help guys up after fouls. remember the Cleveland series? We were down 3-0 and Marvin is helping guys up off the ground
LOL
Dan
December 23rd, 2009
11:28 pm
But then again all the Nuggets are thugs.
Mac-Town'z Finest 478
December 23rd, 2009
11:29 pm
welikebaseball2, here’s the thing. The Elite teams of the league (excluding the Hawks, if you even included them) can beat you with shooting AND inside play.
We can shoot, but we really dont have good bangers/size down low for posting up on offense or defending the paint on defense.
We CAN shoot it out with other good teams….but we CANT battle it out with them on the inside. The only thing we have to do to defend shooters is put a hand up…and hustle more…….to defend the paint….we actually need the personnel that we dont have.
I’d be alot more concerned about the paint than the perimeter.
Alot of our “paint” points come on fast breaks, drunks, and joe johnson floaters, not banging and posting up by our big men.
WTF
December 23rd, 2009
11:29 pm
JR SHOULD HAVE WATCHED THIS GAME FROM THE SEAT OF HIS PANTS. OUR B!TCHES ARENT PHYSICALLY.
WTF
December 23rd, 2009
11:30 pm
WE ARE DEFENSELESS IN THE PAINT
Dan
December 23rd, 2009
11:30 pm
Guys this game was lost in the 1st quarter. BTW, Teague looks very lost out there.
JeJe
December 23rd, 2009
11:30 pm
Bibby has 4pts, 3 assists. Ty Lawson, a rookie, has 14 points, 3 assists.
Bibby has 4pts, 3 assists. Ty Lawson, a rookie, has 14 points, 3 assists.
Bibby has 4pts, 3 assists. Ty Lawson, a rookie, has 14 points, 3 assists.
LOL this reminds me of the Cleveland game last March in Cleveland where we are so preoccupied shutting down LeBron, that one of the role players takes over (J.R. Smith).
Good job Woody!
IT’S ALL ABOUT DEFENSE AND REBOUNDING, EVEN THOUGH WE SUCK AT BOTH
SEASON IS OVER
THIS TEAM WILL NOT GET PAST 2ND ROUND BECAUSE WOODSON WILL NOT USE BENCH IN CLOSE GAMES
JeJe
December 23rd, 2009
11:30 pm
LOL THIS IDIOT PUTS IN OUR STARTERS AT 7 MINUTE MARK OF 2ND QTR. LMAO I CAN COACH BETTER THAN THAT
Big Ray
December 23rd, 2009
11:31 pm
Where does defense start? In the paint? So the guards don’t have anything to do on defense? Strange how with such a weak defense down low, we’ve managed to win 20 games already, and lost only 8.
I seem to remember when we beat Denver earlier in the season, there were some similarities, and some differences:
1) Nene had 12 and 7 rebounds. Al Horford held his own just fine THEN as well, with 11 points and 12 rebounds.
2) Josh Smith was killing those guys. He had 22 points, 9 boards, 7 assists, and 6 blocked shots. J-Smoove didn’t have nearly as good a game this time, and he padded his stats at the end of tonight’s game.
3) JR Smith didn’t play. He was suspended at the time. This time he scored 41 points and hit 10 three pointers. Gee, what a difference.
4) Last time, Joe Johnson had 22 points, 7 boards, and 5 assists. He didn’t do so well this time, did he?
That was in a 25 point win. I’d love for somebody to prove to me how our middle was a weakness in both games. Nevermind. I’ve heard enough craziness for the evening.
Good night Horford haters…
WTF
December 23rd, 2009
11:32 pm
WHEN THE OTHER TEAM HAS TO HAVE A BASKET, THEY TAKE IT TO US IN THE PAINT. WE CANT GET IN THE PAINT IN CRUNCH TIME AGAINST THEM.
Reggie (The Bird and Indian)
December 23rd, 2009
11:32 pm
Zaza is the only guy that would have knocked him down, but calm down people. We are 20-8 with one of the tougher schedules in the league. I expected this loss. A back to backer in Denver is never gonna be an easy one to win.
Big Ray
December 23rd, 2009
11:32 pm
So. The season is over. I guess that means some people should stop blogging. BWAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAAAA!
Yeah right. Just kidding. What’s Christmas without the Grinch?
Night…
Sautee
December 23rd, 2009
11:33 pm
Horford, for his grit, his class, his effort, tenacity and court awareness gets the short shrift here. Go Figure.
Of course NEVER is it explained who would be better and how we would reasonably acquire them. I guess it’s all too easy to just b!tch about useless BS.
Big Ray
December 23rd, 2009
11:35 pm
Zaza is the only guy that would have knocked him down, but calm down people. We are 20-8 with one of the tougher schedules in the league. I expected this loss. A back to backer in Denver is never gonna be an easy one to win.
Good post.
We can’t get in the paint. Guess Josh got his 17 from the perimeter and Al got his 18 from the arc.
I keep trying to leave, but some of the funniest jokes I’ve ever heard just keep popping up around here!
Reggie (The Bird and Indian)
December 23rd, 2009
11:35 pm
Big Ray: Don’t waste your time on them. The true fans realize how exceptional of a player Al is as a 3rd year player. He could be an all star yet people still hate on him.
Big Ray
December 23rd, 2009
11:36 pm
Horford, for his grit, his class, his effort, tenacity and court awareness gets the short shrift here. Go Figure.
Of course NEVER is it explained who would be better and how we would reasonably acquire them. I guess it’s all too easy to just b!tch about useless BS.
Yep….
FCK HORFORD AND WOODSON
December 23rd, 2009
11:36 pm
HO HO HO MERRY HOLIDAY BIG RAY AS
JeJe
December 23rd, 2009
11:37 pm
Big Ray,
STFU. No one here respects you or likes you. The fact that you nitpick and comment on every single one of my innocent posts shows you are a loser with no life or social skills. Go piss off someone else and get out of my life.
welikebaseball2
December 23rd, 2009
11:38 pm
Big Ray: The idea that Horford is the weak link is obviously absurd. Some folks are just playing the “we’re not big enough” card. Maybe they could make that argument after the Magic game where Howard basically had his way in the paint for the 2nd half, but this one? We lost tonight because we gave up open jumpers & the Nuggets had the type of shooting night that allowed them to cash in on virtually every one of them. Well, that & a stagnant offense. Too much watching instead of cutting to the basket. Just my opinion though!
Reggie (The Bird and Indian)
December 23rd, 2009
11:39 pm
Merry Holiday?
WTF
December 23rd, 2009
11:39 pm
WE NEED A DEFENSIVE PRESENCE IF WE ARE GOING TO GO AFTER A CHAMPIONSHIP. THATS WHAT IM SAYING . THAT WILL ALLOW US TO DO MORE THINGS.
Mac-Town'z Finest 478
December 23rd, 2009
11:40 pm
lol who hates Horford??? Not me. I, like most others, just know he’s playing out of position. Horford should be at PF, you cant expect him grind it out with natural centers.
The bottom line is this team wont do much better than last year without a true center of some kind of banger/tough guy on the inside.
Dudes are talking about defending jump shooting. We can live with teams firing it up, because thats not gonna get the job done most of the time anyway.
lol if that were the case, The Knicks and Warriors would be NBA ELITE.
Big Ray
December 23rd, 2009
11:41 pm
Reggie ,
I hear you. I guess I should quit bulldogging the issue so much. Okay, just one more quote, and this one is from Woody (which really ought to rankle the nerves of his unwaveringly myopic supporters that somehow find themselves in stark disagreement with the head coach himself):
NBA.com: Al Horford gets praised often for being “older” than his years. Where did that come from?
MW: From Billy Donovan and winning those two back-to-back titles [at Florida]. I told Al as a rookie, “I’m not going to treat you like a rookie.” Because he was doing things on the floor, especially from a defensive standpoint, that you didn’t have to teach. Very smart kid, picks up things fast. Now he’s starting to develop some offensive skills.
Damn. How about that? Woody says Al Horford CAME INTO THE LEAGUE playing good defense. One more time for those in the cheap seats, who I would just LOVE to hear call Woody a liar:
I told Al as a rookie, “I’m not going to treat you like a rookie.” Because he was doing things on the floor, especially from a defensive standpoint, that you didn’t have to teach.
You know what? I think I’ll just post that, and several other Woody quotes about Al Horford each time the Hate Horford Express pulls in. Yep. From the man Woody, himself. BOOYAH.
WTF
December 23rd, 2009
11:42 pm
THE JUMPERS WERE OPEN BECAUSE THE DEFENSE HAD TO LEAVE THEIR MAN TO HELP HOFORD TIMID A. THE DUDE IS DEFENSELESS
Kiki
December 23rd, 2009
11:42 pm
For Sund to trade for a big (to satisfy the anti-Horford 3-member club) he would have to involve Al “The Weak” Horford himself. And guess what, he just won’t do that (unless a Chris Bosh type of player is in the mix). Horford is too damn good and the league knows it.
nunna yo biznezz
December 23rd, 2009
11:43 pm
hey yall,
just replaying the mo knocking over the cup of ice onto the court,and passes by woody and told him he didn’t want to here that”BS”,LMAO…
and,u see that even though he took mo out of the game,he put him back in..(MEMO TO JEFF TEAGUE)…
if u get in woody’s face,he’ll respect u more..if u don’t,he will run over yo a$$..
well,we didn’t play our 10 man rotation and u see where that got us??
when we play our 1st and 2nd unit in full,we win..when we don’t and just play a 7-8 man rotation,we lose..
2nd unit:
mo,crawford,teague,zsa zsa,joe smith or randmo..
when the 1st unit gets rest,and come out for the 3rd quarter,they blow peeps out,and the 2nd unit and the other guys on the bench keep the lead and we win..
shoulda had teague in with more minutes played,and do u think that lawson,aaron brooks,chris paul,or even derron williams would be where they are today playing under woody??
NOPE!!!
AND,i think im not making too much sense,and im sleepy,so,im going to bed..
nite nite
FCK HORFORD. WOODSON AND RAY
December 23rd, 2009
11:43 pm
BOOYAH!
niremetal
December 23rd, 2009
11:46 pm
You should listen to Reggie, Ray. The man knows what he’s talking about
bigdave
December 23rd, 2009
11:47 pm
where is Joe Smith by the way?
welikebaseball2
December 23rd, 2009
11:47 pm
Mac Townz: Trust, I understand your point about some beef down low. I think we’re missing Joe Smith more than a lot of us realize. No, he’s not physically big, but he’s plays really big & tough. I just don’t think you understand my differentiating between teams “firing up jumpers” & giving teams open shots. Paint defense is important, but no matter how you lock down the paint, if you don’t contest jumpers you’ll get burned by good jumpshooting teams. Defending the paint is only a portion of team defense. When the Hawks are at their best, they’re seem to be contesting every shot that goes up.
Big Ray
December 23rd, 2009
11:50 pm
Mac-Town ,
That’s hilarious. We got beat tonight by jumpshooting, unless of course you want to argue that JR scored all his points at the rim.
We got beat by New York. Oh, you forgot that, eh? How about New Orleans? Detroit? All losses where we gave jumpshooters the room they needed, then let them run into the paint…why?
I’ll tell you why. We play a switching defense. Key word here- SWITCH. Which means you are as likely to find your POST GUYS playing “D” on the perimeter, then having to run back and defend the post.
I was on here clamoring that Al was a PF rather than a center when we first picked the guy.
I just disagree that this is our major problem. We have other, bigger issues. Horford is holding his own at his position, averaging damn near a double double. Our problem is that we play this defensive scheme that requires better defensive effectiveness from our backcourt players. We don’t have that. Joe is the only effective defender out of ALL of our guards.
If you cannot stop penetration, you will overload the post players. We have the league leader in blocked shots on our team. Does that not give you a hint or a clue? Our post players are constantly having to rotate over and try to make up for our perimeter defense, which is damn near non-existent on some nights.
Want an example? How do teams give Cleveland the fits? By running the pick and roll against Shaq and Ilgauskas. Watch and see if Sacramento pulls out a victory against cleveland tonight. I can pretty much predict how they’ll do it. Penetration and forcing big guys to try and rotate over to catch the guards who got through the perimeter.
Big Ray
December 23rd, 2009
11:51 pm
FCK HORFORD. WOODSON AND RAY
Well there it is. Never thought I’d see Truth Serum dip out on his boy Woody, but he has just officially joined the elusive and never seen Bubba Crew . Congratulations, pal. Knew you had it in you all along….
Gosh, you Bubba Crew guys are harsh.
Hawks Fan In New Orleans
December 23rd, 2009
11:51 pm
Wow, JR Smith killed us. My gut feeling is he would have a terrific game seeing him up close at the Hornet’s game last week led me to believe this. I dunno what the defensive breakdowns were being that I only heard bits and pieces on satellite radio. My guess is that we double Carmelo and he just kept feeding an open JR Smith and he popped us for 9 threes. Another lackluster performance on the books, cannot complain because we are 20 and 8 but I wish we could have competed more aggressively and made defensive adjustments on Smith.
Who is next Cleveland???
Big Ray
December 23rd, 2009
11:53 pm
And on THAT note, I’m out….like somebody’s brain cell count…
welikebaseball2
December 23rd, 2009
11:55 pm
Big Ray: True. I just don’t think we have the one-on-one defenders to play the zone defense Woody seems to love…especially when it comes to defending the perimeter. Joe & Moe are the only solid perimeter defenders we have.
Mac-Town'z Finest 478
December 23rd, 2009
11:57 pm
lol @Big Ray
Yeah, we got beat TONIGHT because JR Smith had a big game. An OUT OF THE ORDINARY GAME.
There will be other nights when we lose because one team just happens to be “shooting lights out” that night.
I agree we need to stop penetration, but I believe defending the paint is more of problem. Atleast we have the personnel to assist in that, like playing Teague more minutes instead of Bibby (concerning PG penetration)….but we dont even have the parts for the paint woes.
You people think Horford is the answer at center?
LOL!
nah I dont hate horford…I like horford….I just hate that he has to place C instead of PF.
Mac-Town'z Finest 478
December 23rd, 2009
11:59 pm
lol yall think Horford will be the answer at C against the likes of Dwight, Bynum, Gasol, BIG Z, Shaq etc.
cp
December 24th, 2009
12:01 am
Once again we did not have a plan B. Plan A did not work but the coach did not have another go to plan. Where were the adjustments? A few guys looked like they didn’t care to be out there anyway. Terrible game in pretty much every aspect.
bigdave
December 24th, 2009
12:02 am
im not understanding the big Al debate… if there was a single player to blame for our defensive problems or the reason we switch anyway it would be Mike Bibby.
he not only struggles at times to stay in front of his defender but on his rotations he rarely puts a hand up to contest. at best he’ll casually throw a hand up as the ball begins its downward fall towards the basket…
Atlanta Sports Sux
December 24th, 2009
12:02 am
Who cares? Atlanta is an overrated dump of a city, With Sh*tty sports teams. Worst Sports city in America.
Atlanta Sports Sux
December 24th, 2009
12:03 am
City of Atlanta will be Detroit in the next 5-10 years, except without championship teams like the Pistons and Red Wings.
Black Mecca my a**
Reggie (The Bird and Indian)
December 24th, 2009
12:04 am
I would rather trade for a quick PG right now instead of a big. Al can hold his own against anybody and we have depth on the bench if he gets in foul trouble. They may not be the best but a big is a big. On the other hand, we don’t have depth at guard. We got our main 3 and an inexperienced Teague. I’ve been preaching Raymond Felton for a while now because I really like his game and he’s a quick PG. We can’t continually have Joe guard the other team’s PG. I’m pretty sure that Raymond is only about 5 mil. a year and I think they’re committed to D.J. for their future PG. Any other names you guys think would be a fit at PG?
welikebaseball2
December 24th, 2009
12:06 am
Mac Townz: Agreed about the idea of giving Teague more burn…especially against quicker guards. However, even if he stops the guard “penetration” more effectively, it won’t solve the problem that killed us tonight. Open jumpers. J.R. Smith wasn’t driving. He was hitting uncontested jumpers. I won’t act like I’m an expert analyst or anything, but I do know that the Hawks seemed to be late in rotating to the ball.I’d tag it as a defensive scheme/assignment/execution problem. Part coaching, part players. As for Horford, I too hate that he has to play center, but that’s not on him. I think he’s done way more than held his own considering whose he’s had to match up with.
FCK HORFORD. WOODSON , RAY, TRUTH SERUM
December 24th, 2009
12:06 am
AND THE BUBBA CREW
Reggie (The Bird and Indian)
December 24th, 2009
12:07 am
I agree that I wish Horford could play PF. His stats would probably increase. But I know that Al Horford is more than capable to hold his own at center, and he is.
Max Mars
December 24th, 2009
12:07 am
Question? Is Bibby the only perimeter defender having problems keeping his man in front of him?