Joe Smith out, and some tidbits

Hello, Hawks fans-

Hope you are all well. A few things.

1) Joe Smith won’t be making the trip to Toronto. He’ll stay home for treatment, and Othello Hunter will be activated in his place. It’s possible Smith could play Sunday against New Jersey, but it would seem like that’d be an outside shot, perhaps somewhat dependent on what Hunter does against Toronto. Mike Woodson said Marvin Williams could be an option at 4 behind Al Horford if he doesn’t get what he wants from Hunter.

Smith had his hand in a wrap Thursday. He said the thumb was very sore.

2) A quick thought on Wednesday’s game:

They got a lot of help from the Bulls (Kirk Hinrich, playing after missing the last six games with a sprained thumb, missed all nine of his shots) but the Hawks played pretty tough defense for the second game in a row. They held Dallas and Chicago under 40 percent shooting and, if the fourth quarter hadn’t turned into an AAU game between the backups, they would have held both teams to their season lows for points.

I asked Joe Johnson if this was a turning point, defensively, for the team.

“I don’t know,” he said. “I hope so. We’ve been pretty good.”

3.) I think someone might have posted this already, but the Hawks reportedly lost $2 million last season, according to Forbes magazine. The report also said that the team is worth $306 million, which is 21st in the league.

4) To move along one of our favorite topics, Marvin Williams. Woodson on No. 24, from before Wednesday’s game:

“He’s still young. … When we got him, he was only 18, 19 years old. (He was 19 on opening night) He played on a national title team and played 20 minutes a game. He hasn’t played much ball is kind of how I look at it. He’s still learning.”

439 comments Add your comment


December 10th, 2009
2:31 pm


December 10th, 2009
2:37 pm


where did you see Kirby Smart was coming to UGA?

Crashing the glass

December 10th, 2009
2:58 pm

For more on the Chicago stomping-


December 10th, 2009
3:09 pm


December 10th, 2009
3:19 pm

Aww cmon Hawk fans

Forwards: LeBron James (Clev) 649,327; Kevin Garnett (Bos) 533,187; Chris Bosh (Tor) 303,550; Paul Pierce (Bos) 131,379; Josh Smith (Atl) 109,404; Danny Granger (Ind) 100,122; Andre Iguodala (Phi) 75,146; Michael Beasley (Mia) 58,461; Hedo Turkoglu (Tor) 55,416; Rashard Lewis (Orl) 46,073; Luol Deng (Chi) 37,428.

Guards: Dwyane Wade (Mia) 672,227; Vince Carter (Orl) 292,002; Gilbert Arenas (Was) 212,526; Ray Allen (Bos) 208,276 Derrick Rose (Chi) 196,059; Allen Iverson (Phi) 136,976*; Joe Johnson (Atl) 118,964; Rajon Rondo (Bos) 113,371; Jose Calderon (Tor) 68,084; Mike Bibby (Atl) 48,935.

Centers: Dwight Howard (Orl) 625,279; Shaquille O’Neal (Cle) 206,657; Andrea Bargnani (Tor) 67,310; Al Horford (Atl) 52,747; Andrew Bogut (Mil) 45,920; Brook Lopez (NJ) 39,420; Jermaine O’Neal (Mia) 38,956; Rasheed Wallace (Bos) 36,855; Kendrick Perkins (Bos) 19,408; Brad Miller (Chi) 17,188; Tyson Chandler (Cha) 14,062; Samuel Dalembert, (Phi) 13,969.

Cmon we need to work on getting Al into 3rd place among centers , Smoove into top 5 among forwards and Joe into top 5 among guards . We also should get Crawford into the top 7 guards as well no way Arenas should be 3rd with Joe and Crawford the top two scorers on the 3rd best team in the conference and 5th best in the league .

After last nights game Crawford is now 12th among all shooting guards in the league in scoring and 7th in fg%.

Lets get the vote out and get all of our guys represented better in the fan voting.


December 10th, 2009
3:35 pm

Woody hit it right on the head. Marvin is still very young and he didn’t start his only year at Carolina. I think people are expecting way to mucj of this kid. He is not as good as Chris Paul or Deron Williams but I think Billy Knight did a wondering job of drafting Marvin. The Hawks have improved every year and has made the playoff just about as many times as the Hornets. Marvin has a terrific attitude ans is willing to do anything that is asked of him. How many other players in the NBA can you say that about. Get off Marvin because if you trade him it will bite you.


December 10th, 2009
3:48 pm

it doesnt matter coaches will vote joe,josh,and horford in but I think josh should be starting


December 10th, 2009
3:57 pm

Heelsfan , Billy Knight did a wonderful job drafing Marvin are you crazy!!!!!. Marvin is a role player at best. You do not draft role players with the 3rd pick in the draft you draft impact players.


December 10th, 2009
4:07 pm

bigdave- I was just messing with Clyde. Totally pulling his leg. Would be nice though.


December 10th, 2009
4:11 pm

So why the heck did you draft him if you knew he didnt play much! You already had a forward, DUMMY!

Ken Strickland

December 10th, 2009
4:13 pm

The Hawks need to win at least 5 of the next 6gms, because after we play the Wolves, we’ll encounter a string of 19 difficult gms indeed. After playing MIN, we’ll close out DEC playing DEN, IND, and CLE(back to back), then start JAN playing MIA, BOS(3times), ORL(twice), PHO, HOU and the SPURS.

I don’t know if we’ll fair very well if we try to approach that schedule and those teams using a 7-8 man rotation and playing JJ close to 40MPG like we’ve done over the last 15gms. We need to take a lesson from last nights gm and continue to run, attack the basket, maintain ball movement, spread the wealth and utilizing our bench, not relying as much of 3pt shooting, ISO’s, one on one play and play solid straight up man to man DEF.



December 10th, 2009
4:22 pm

To my way of thinking discussions on which team the Hawks will meet in the second round of the playoffs, while interesting, is not germane to this point in the season. We have learned (1.) that the Hawks were able to defeat the Celtics in Boston during the regular season; (2.) that the Hawks displayed an ability to play with the Magic for one half during their first meeting which means that maybe if the team plays to a high level for 48 minutes they may be competitive against the Magic in a playoff match; (3.)Cleveland does not appear to have benefited from the chance to their team that occurred during the off-season (in fact it is my opinion the team may have regressed since last year); and finally(4.)we have a home and away series coming up against the Cavs that will give us more insight into where we stand in the East after that weekend is completed.

As far as all of the rhetoric about Al Horford my view is that there is only one center in the East that stands hands and shoulders above him. My solution to that center is to find an elephant gun and use it on him every time he tries to cross the center line. Seriously there is no trade that we can make that will make up competitive at that position. In order to overcome that weakness the team must try to minimize the damage and play to their strengths like they did for one half of their first encounter this year. All of us should be happy that we will be facing them again during the regular season.


December 10th, 2009
4:28 pm

Even when Joe Smith comes back the Hawks need to keep Hunter activated and let Collins wear a suit until he gets in some type of shape. That dude is terrible. Bibby is clearly hurt so increase Teague’s minutes and let him get more experience. We have some very winnable games coming up so it might be the right time to let the youngster play.


December 10th, 2009
4:30 pm


Is Woody a championship coach?
If woody is not a championship coach…why keep him?

Is woody sacrificing long term development for regular season wins?
I believe he is…maybe Rick Sund also believes that?

Is Bibby a championship PG?
If he is not a championship PG..why not give Teague the bulk min(I.E Rondo), so he can be a force during the playoffs.

Could another coach do better?
I believe another coached could do better developing a PG. That is enough for me to make a coaching change, because I don’t believe we will acquire a true center. We will have to become a championship team, by being very good offensively and defensively at every position.

We are good enough to make the playoffs with Teague as our PG, But we are not good enough to win a championship with Bibby as our PG.

If you are faced with this dilemma’s, do you keep Woody?

Ken Sugiura

December 10th, 2009
4:34 pm

thanks for the info, james, and thanks for the kind words, matt.

good take, RLP. that cleveland series will indeed be a good insight. i don’t know why the league scheduled it like that – it’s the only time on the schedule where the hawks play the same team back to back – but it’ll be interesting. glad i’ll be doing both of those games.

Ken Strickland – good point. I hadn’t looked at the schedule that closely, outside of the Boston-Orlando-Boston stretch, but end of December to end of January is a bear.


December 10th, 2009
4:47 pm

If Sund and the organization decide – at some point – that it’s in the best interest of the HAWKS to move Marvin, is that hating? If such a move nets us a player who does more to help us get to that illusive ‘next level’, do we care if Marvin the individual player comes back to haunt us? Hope the answer to both questions is “NO” without equivocation. Winning the O’Brien trophy shouldn’t be about falling in lust with one player or another; nas to be about how to best construct a side that’ll bring a June parade to Peachtree Street.


December 10th, 2009
4:51 pm

Anyone thinking Bibby does not help this team is nuts. There is a reason they are #1 in fewest turnovers. When Bibby is out they start making turn overs. It is not just his numbers he is a stabilizing factors. I think Teague is coming along at a good pace, he still has a lot to learn. Also I think the pick n roll with Bibby and Horford or Smith is just about our most effective play we always end up with a good shot afterwards.


December 10th, 2009
4:55 pm

I think back to back game with Cleveland is an advantage for us. Shaq/Big Z will be burnt out in the second night of running behind our bigs.


December 10th, 2009
4:59 pm

Whenever the discussion turns to w/not Al is the center that the team needs to win a championship or w/not he is competitive in the short run , one point that has not been clarified is that when I make the point about the need for a different center, it is in the playoffs where the need becomes acute.. When the Hawks have to play a 7 game serise with a physically dominent center like a Dwight ,Shaq or Bynam we may use quickness to compete for 1 or 2 games but over the course of the 7 games brawn and height are going to prevail 9 times out of 10 and especially with highly skilled players like the aforementioned trio.

Does this mean that Al is not a heck of a player? No ! My point is that long term the Hawks have to look at playing a bigger team starting at center to win it all IMHO.

And that player probably will have to be develoed from the currrent roster because one of the prices of succes in the NBA is not getting a high draft position unless you can make a trade.


December 10th, 2009
5:03 pm

JJM, I think if Garnett is elected as a starter it will hurt Josh’s chance of making the team. Bosh, Pierce, and Granger (if he’s not hurt) will probably be selected by the coaches before Josh.


December 10th, 2009
5:23 pm


I think Bibby is a fine PG and very good leader. I believe Woodson should be able to develop a PG who is quick, athletic and can be just as effective as Bibby running the offense. Woodson has had 5 years and 2 1st rounders to develop a PG…When will we get our future.

This is the best year to let a young PG play…because we will still be the 4th seed with Teague playing 20 min.

Astro Joe

December 10th, 2009
5:39 pm

Rufus, based on your logic, the Cavs should fire Mike Brown immediately, because there is nothing about him that screams “championship coach”. Rondo received a lot of playing time during his rookie campaign that resulted in less than 30 wins for the Celtics. And he didn’t have anyone nearly as good as Bibby in front of him. Let the young man learn at a pace befitting a college junior playing for a team attempting to move beyond the second round of the playoffs. Slow and easy.

Big Ray

December 10th, 2009
5:44 pm

Very balanced view by Woody on Marvin. Certainly more patient than what many of us have exhibited.

Great posts by Newkid and Astro Joe .

F_ck Ken Sugiura

December 10th, 2009
5:52 pm



December 10th, 2009
6:16 pm

Chris Paul trade?

New Orleans in trouble. Coach fired. Small market. On the hook for Paul, Mo Pete, Stojokavic, Posey, Okafor and not winning.

Do the Hawks need him and what would it take?

Crawford, Smoove, Horford, JJ aint going nowhere but Marvin/Bibby/Teague could pry an unhappy Paul/1st pick away and give Hornets cost-effective young players to rebuild around.

ATL could finally put the Paul over Marvin debate behind them. Hawks get smaller but better. Depth could become an issue, but we have ball handlers in Evans, Crawford and JJ.

Probably more minutes for Joe Smith, Pachulia, RandMo.

Don’t see ATL spirit keeping Bibby beyond trade deadline anyway.


December 10th, 2009
6:29 pm

Astro is your goal the 2nd round of the playoffs?

I thought Rondo went to the Celtics the year they won the championship…I could be wrong.

If you decide that your goal is a championship and you believe the coach you have can’t get you there…you replace him.

An organization must decide what it’s goals are and then make the hard decisions. Bibby is the worst defensive PG in the league and we have to worry about his long term viability. I do not suggest trading him, but reducing his minutes and giving them to Teague. I think Bibby is an important piece, but he can’t be the long term solution.

When Bibby’s jumper isn’t falling, he is liability.

darrell starks

December 10th, 2009
6:46 pm

tyger i like the trade scenario for chris paul but it would destroy our bench rotation and we no you cant win in the nba with and 8man rotation.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!

darrell starks

December 10th, 2009
6:47 pm

GO HAWKS!!!!!!!

darrell starks

December 10th, 2009
6:54 pm

I no andris biedrins is hurt right now but this is the perfect opportunity 2 get him, may be for a number 1 draft pick and no player involved.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!

darrell starks

December 10th, 2009
6:58 pm

GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!


December 10th, 2009
7:06 pm

darrell starks i like that trade but i think it would take more than just a number 1pick for andris biedrins.

Najeh Davenpoop

December 10th, 2009
7:09 pm

I brought up the possibility over the summer of the Hornets possibly being willing to listen to 80 cents on the dollar offers for CP3 if they continue to flounder, but I still think if the Hawks were to approach them, there’s no way they pull the trigger on a deal like that without Joe Johnson going the other way. I do think that if the Hawks were to put together a package including Johnson, Teague, and a first rounder, such a trade may still be worth it in the long run. I don’t think the Hawks would be significantly worse, if at all, with a lineup of Paul-Crawford-Marvin-Josh-Horford — especially if they find a way to bolster the SG or SF positions in the draft or free agency after making such a trade.

That said, it would be unbelievably foolish to make a trade involving your best player in midseason when you are on pace for 55 wins. If such a trade is going to happen, it would have to be next summer as a sign-and-trade.

Najeh Davenpoop

December 10th, 2009
7:13 pm

No way a 23-year-old nightly double-double and shot blocking threat gets traded for just a pick, especially not by a team that has zero inside presence besides him.

Ken Strickland

December 10th, 2009
7:40 pm

All of the discussions about trading Marvin is crazy, because there are far more important issues for the ASG to consider than that. For instance, what do we do about JJ? How hard should the ASG push to resign him? While JJ is a better all around player, especially on DEF, Crawford is a better OFF player. What do we do to get Horford’s contract extended, since we all know other NBA teams will make every effort to sign a player of his calibur and versatility away from us.

Retaining those 2 players would be far more beneficial to the Hawks than any player we might get in a trade for Marvin. It’s really comical to read some of the comments about Marvin being absolutely worthless from some of the same individuals that are suggesting we trade this worthless player for an Allstar or potential Allstar calibur player they have a preference for. It’s like they think the HC’s and GM’s around the league are as stupid as they are.

KEN SUGIURA-Like you, I wasn’t focued much past the back to back gms with Cleveland. But when I noticed how relatively weak the teams we’ll play leading up to the Cleveland series, I figured we’d have to pay a price somewhere along the line, so I looked. That’s when I saw us having a heavy dose of Cleveland, Boston and Orlando. Starting with Cleveland, 7 or our next 19gms will be against these 3 teams. We even have a stretch where we play Boston and Orlando back to back and then Boston again all in 4days.

If we intend to weather this 19gm stretch, Woodson can’t afford to keep over playing our key players, especially if they’re injured, and limiting our bench contributions, like he tends to do when we face tougher competition.


December 10th, 2009
7:42 pm

“tyger i like the trade scenario for chris paul but it would destroy our bench rotation and we no you cant win in the nba with an 8man rotation” darrell starks, December 10th, 2009, 6:46 pm

Darrell, I agree. However, you know how much Woody likes a 8 man rotation lol

Ken Strickland, Although the schedule is very tough, the Hawks are known to compete very well against teams .500 or better.

That being said, my biggest concern is if the Hawks lose a tough game to one of those teams, will they keep it together, or will they go on a losing streak (I feel like I just contradicted myself).


December 10th, 2009
8:28 pm

In case yall haven’t noticed, all the “Championship” coaches are working some where,have retired or have died.
Dumb ass_s

Astro Joe

December 10th, 2009
8:35 pm

Rufus, it’s nice to say that an NBA title is the goal, but when you think about the practical ways of making that happen, you find that you end up chasing your tail. I’m fairly certain that in modern times, exceeding the luxury tax is the first way to build a true title contender.

And yes, Rondo definitely started in the woeful season of the Celtics, prior to the KG & Ray Allen trades. And wasn’t Rondo a college senior when he left Kentucky?

Teague’s minutes should increase as the year progresses… but I don’t think he should average 20 minutes in his first 40 games in the NBA. Not as long as Bibby is leading a team that is first in TOs and is clearly an improved offensive team.


December 10th, 2009
8:47 pm

aj: rondo avged 20+ minutes his rookie year off the bench. so i don’t think he is a good comparison.

here are some comparable rookie minutes:

tony parker avged 29 min
baron davis avged 19 min
rajon rondo avged 24 min
jameer nelson avged 20 min
mario chalmers avged 32 min
raymond felton avged 30.1 min
gilbert arenas avged 25 min
devin harris avged 15.4 min
chris duhon avged 27 min

this years rookies
ty lawson 21.3 min
jrue holiday 15.4 min
darren collison 22 min
eric maynor 15.2 min
(i left out most of the obvious lottery picks because they would obviously get more p.t. i.e. paul, d-will, jennings, evans)

and of course our very own jeff teague avging a paltry 9.6 min.

this of course after hearing all the positive news out of the hawks preseason camp that this kid could really play. that woody expected big contributions from him during the season. i’m not saying teague is as good or better than every player listed what i am saying is that in order to see some development and improvement you have to let the young kid play through mistakes and give him some serious/consistent minutes. most everyone on this blog thought ac could ball. the problem was he never got on the floor. he lost whatever confidence he had, then add the injury issues along with the subsequent weight issues and the rest is history. now he can’t get any burn on a bad warriors squad. either the hawks draft pg’s with no ability or woody is just too damn scared or doesn’t know how to win while developing young players.


December 10th, 2009
8:47 pm

aj: rondo was a sophomore


December 10th, 2009
8:58 pm

aj: one last thing… i’m pretty sure the majority of cavs fans would love to see mike brown gone. and to tell you the truth he should be booted. he’s got the best player in the world with a decent cast and just lost back to back games to memphis and houston. he hasn’t even been to the finals with lebron. imagine him coaching any other team. scary.


December 10th, 2009
9:09 pm


Honest-abe has some good points.. I agree Bibby is what we need NOW, but we can’t sacrifice another young PG for 2 or 3 more victories. Teague must have an opportunity to develop and 9 min is not enough.

Is it possible Woody does not know how to develop a PG…that would explain alot. It has been 6 years.


December 10th, 2009
9:11 pm

Wow, it’s like old times with AJ and abe going back and forth.

Did I step in the way back machine? ;-)

Good to see you both here.


December 10th, 2009
9:16 pm


How can you say that Woodson is no good at developing points guards?

Didn’t he develop Joe Johnson via “Iso-Joe”? ;-)

I mean Joe was never an All-Star until Woody handed him the ball and told the team to get out of the way, right?

Note: I’m calling Joe a point guard because he dominates the ball on offense.

And this is tongue-in-cheek, in case anybody doesn’t recognize it.


December 10th, 2009
9:26 pm


I keep hearing all you “scrubbs” crying to get rid of Woody but I haven’t heard any names as to who would replace him. Your usual guys taken(F. Sanders, E. Jordan ect). Look how they are tearing up the league.I guess the only likely choices left are Avery(Mr. Bill) Johnson and Mark Jackson. I guess they are championship coaches, huh?

Get Real


December 10th, 2009
9:32 pm


That is what Billy Knight wanted…JJ the PG.
Teague is atleast as good as Darren Collison and Eric Maynor.


December 10th, 2009
9:52 pm


I am not asking for Woodson’s head Yet, but we have one glaring weakness on our team and he has not fixed it(6 yrs). Houston turned the team over to Brooks during a playoff run, but Teague can’t get more than 9 min. This is the guy he wanted, this is the guy he bragged about. All the guys we drafted can’t be terrible…Jerry Sloan keeps hitting HR with his PG’s. Most of use would trade Teague and Bibby for Brooks, but he can’t become like Brooks if he does play.

Teague has Brooks skill set.


December 10th, 2009
10:17 pm

I’m still on the fence about Woody. If Sund decides to extend him, I think it’s important that an offensive coordinator be next on the agenda.


December 10th, 2009
10:22 pm

scrubb as defined by tlc:

A scrub is a guy that thinks he’s fly and is
also known as a buster
always talkin’ about what he wants
and just sits on his broke ass

yes that sounds an awful like samuel.

scrubb as defined by me

a scrubb is a moron who thought marcus williams was the 2nd coming of magic johnson. a scrubb is someone who thinks that steve nash’s only contribution to the game of basketball is his awesome hair do’s. a scrubb is someone who thinks that mike woodson aka mr. potato head is a better coach than hall of famer larry brown.

the biggest scrubb on this board is samuel.



December 10th, 2009
10:28 pm

sautee: thanks. glad to be back on this thing. nothing like rehashing the same thing in a million different ways. hey at the least the hawks are winning now. heh

Ken Strickland

December 10th, 2009
10:35 pm

We’ve played very good DEF the last 2gms. I’ve also noticed we haven’t played as much switching DEF in either gm. Even though Bibby was hobbling and shouldn’t have been on the court, he didn’t hurt us nearly as bad as usual. Of course, it made a big difference that our frontline players were able to remain near the basket and prevented DRose from consistently penetrating all the way to the basket.

We’re a much better DEF when we don’t try to protect Bibby by switching on every pick. All teams are afraid to go all of the way to the basket with Smoove under there. Teams just love it when we switch and they end up with Smoove or Horford out on the perimeter getting beaten off the dribble by their PG/SG, with Bibby under the basket providing their only backup.

I don’t know how many times I’ve seen BIG RAY explain how our switching DEF doesn’t hide Bibby’s weakness, it actually makes it easier for a team to expose and take advantage of it. IF YOU THINK HORFORD IS TOO UNDERSIZED TO BE EFFECTIVE AGAINST THE BIGGER, STRONGER CENTERS, WHAT MAKES ANYONE WITH A CLUE THINK BIBBY IS BETTER EQUIPPED TO DO SO. After all, who do you think he’ll end up guarding when the opposition runs a pick and roll with their PG and Center and we switch?

When we switch on every pick, we usually end up playing poor DEF overall, but when we play straight man to man DEF, we usually end up playing solid DEF overall. These are the types of persistent problems that a HC that pays attention to detail should notice and address. This is why some of us say we need a HC that can develop strategies, particularly during gms, recognize and think through situations and make adjustments. It would also be nice if some of his more ardent supporters could do the same.