Joe Smith out, and some tidbits
Hello, Hawks fans-
Hope you are all well. A few things.
1) Joe Smith won’t be making the trip to Toronto. He’ll stay home for treatment, and Othello Hunter will be activated in his place. It’s possible Smith could play Sunday against New Jersey, but it would seem like that’d be an outside shot, perhaps somewhat dependent on what Hunter does against Toronto. Mike Woodson said Marvin Williams could be an option at 4 behind Al Horford if he doesn’t get what he wants from Hunter.
Smith had his hand in a wrap Thursday. He said the thumb was very sore.
2) A quick thought on Wednesday’s game:
They got a lot of help from the Bulls (Kirk Hinrich, playing after missing the last six games with a sprained thumb, missed all nine of his shots) but the Hawks played pretty tough defense for the second game in a row. They held Dallas and Chicago under 40 percent shooting and, if the fourth quarter hadn’t turned into an AAU game between the backups, they would have held both teams to their season lows for points.
I asked Joe Johnson if this was a turning point, defensively, for the team.
“I don’t know,” he said. “I hope so. We’ve been pretty good.”
3.) I think someone might have posted this already, but the Hawks reportedly lost $2 million last season, according to Forbes magazine. The report also said that the team is worth $306 million, which is 21st in the league.
4) To move along one of our favorite topics, Marvin Williams. Woodson on No. 24, from before Wednesday’s game:
“He’s still young. … When we got him, he was only 18, 19 years old. (He was 19 on opening night) He played on a national title team and played 20 minutes a game. He hasn’t played much ball is kind of how I look at it. He’s still learning.”
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439 comments Add your comment
bigdave
December 11th, 2009
9:35 pm
aight.. coach does look like a potato head…
Samuel
December 11th, 2009
9:40 pm
Naj,
You can add “Barney” Bargnani to the list. He sets the tone for this team “jackin” up threes and playing “zero” defense.
You guys talk about Woody not being an offensive minded coach yet the Hawks are 6th in the league in offense behind some teams such as GS, PHX and Toronto(before tonight’s game)who play “zero” defense.
So, how can a man coach the team with the 4th best record in the entire league(which may change by the weekend) ,with the 3rd lowest payroll and one of the youngest and not be a dam_ good coach?
I think you guys are looking more and more stupid by the minute with your Woody Hate.
Woody=COY
Melvin
December 11th, 2009
9:41 pm
Man these Refs loves the Cavs…
O'Brien
December 11th, 2009
9:51 pm
Melvin, Lascho
If Chills was on this team, Woody would not know what to do lol.
Some teams (Lakers, Cavs, DWade, Celtics sometimes) seem to get all benefits of the doubt from the refs. Which is what I think Donaghy was talking about.
BONE
December 11th, 2009
9:53 pm
Hopefully Teague is Kevin Johnson 2.0
KevinA
December 11th, 2009
10:00 pm
BONE
December 11th, 2009
9:12 pm
Teague>>>>>>>>Any PG we’ve had in awhile
What if he contiues to do well and gets more minutes – good coaching or just JT doing well.
Lacsho
December 11th, 2009
10:00 pm
Mel, O’Brien
Just think you don’t have to run plays for chillz, and he would clean up Crawfords shots, when he’s having a bad night. He would be a perfect mesh with this current roster.
Keeping it all the way real, when the first team is stalling,Woody should throw the second team in immediately.
Cp- your right about the second team. They really changed the pace, and this is not the first time.
Lacsho
December 11th, 2009
10:01 pm
Kev- you got to remember Teague was a beast in college.
KevinA
December 11th, 2009
10:02 pm
If JT has a bad game or two and his minutes drop off the chart – bad coaching or JT blowing his opporntunities.
BONE
December 11th, 2009
10:03 pm
KevinA I would only give woody credit if he gives Teague consistent mins. That would be good coaching. But I think Teague is just talented and that has nothing to do with Woody.
KevinA
December 11th, 2009
10:03 pm
Lacsho,
Say we had lakers money, Chills replacing hunter would be nice pick up
Lacsho
December 11th, 2009
10:04 pm
Hmmm, I say a rookie trying to find his way. This will be his rolla coaster year, however; you have to let him make mistakes, and find his way.
Big Ray
December 11th, 2009
10:04 pm
Another win, and on the road. Great contributions from our bench. Another blowout win. What’s not to like? I probably shouldn’t ask that question.
Anyway, things I enjoyed in this game:
1) Mike Woodson getting a technical foul. That was greatness. You go, Woody.
2) Mo Evans on fire.
3) Seemingly every Hawk out there trying to get their hands on the ball on defense…and succeeding quite often.
4) A blowout win that wasn’t a shootout (Toronto was held to 89 points).
5) Jeff Teague looking like an NBA point guard, rather than a #19 pick in his first year.
6) Joe Johnson looking like Joe Johnson.
7) Josh Smith recouping from a bad offensive game by collecting blocks, steals, rebounds, and assists.
JB
December 11th, 2009
10:07 pm
Samuel and Najeh, how does one even define “tough”. It’s so subjective. When you say “soft Euro players who stand around and shoots 3s all day” it’s obvious you’re referring to white players. What about Ilyasova, Delfino, Kirilenko, Okur, both Gasols, Biedrins, Pietrus, Sefolosha, Parker, Deng, Gortat, Diaw, Turiaf, and many others who are very good defenders (team or individual) and tough players. Basically you guys have a problem with a small handful of tall white Euros who are good at shooting three pointers. Thats about as dumb as calling a good passer soft because he doesn’t “take initiative” and score by himself like a real tough non-European would. How come the tall white Europeans are soft but the many tall black non-European shooters like Lewis, Harrington, Frye, Sheed, Granger, are never called soft? At least the Euros that do it do it because they were brought up to play like that. The Americans who play like that have no excuse for having such a huge flaw in their game like being good at outside shooting.
Lacsho
December 11th, 2009
10:09 pm
I feel you with the lakers money, but what if we keep Hunter, and loose Collins. He really looks out of place with this team.
Big Ray
December 11th, 2009
10:10 pm
Samuel ,
From my 5:41 post earlier this evening:
“As for Woody’s offense….I agree that there are some problems there. I don’t want to get into too much detail on that opinion, but I will say this: We just took over third place in the Eastern Conference standings, ahead of the Cavs. Yeah, THOSE Cavs. The guys with Lebron and Shaq. Mo Williams, etc. That’s THREE all-stars. Our offense may not be as good as we want it to be, but 21 games in, and this is where we are.
Not only that, but we’re 6th in the NBA in points scored per game, trailing only Phoenix, Denver, Toronto, Golden State, and the L.A. Lakers. That puts us ahead of some pretty good teams and pretty good coaches. Out of those teams, only L.A. is clearly better than us. Phoenix is debatable, and Denver is too, if you ask me. Hey, we may not like everything we see, but something must be working, at least for now.
Of course, the other way of looking at it is to say “call me back in another 20 games, or after a key player goes down with injury.” Well, last I looked, that hurts most teams. Ask the Spurs. I don’t like the ISOs, but when we share the ball, we’re VERY hard to beat. That, and not everything is Woody. Sometimes our guards get too shot happy.”
See? Not all as stupid as you think. I have to leave that COY with you, though. I love 16-6, but it’s too early for me to give the man that plaque. Besides, I think he wants a contract more …
KevinA
December 11th, 2009
10:13 pm
BONE
December 11th, 2009
10:03 pm
KevinA I would only give woody credit if he gives Teague consistent mins. That would be good coaching. But I think Teague is just talented and that has nothing to do with Woody.
He gave Josh, Chills, Marvin, ZaZa, Al consistent minutes all as rookies, I bet if JT performs well he will get his. Coach gets no credit? Top 4 team out of 30 in league so far.
Can you at least admit there you may have a problem with coach hate?
The Hawks do not own a top ten player or own a top 5 coach maybe 10 – maybe 20. So who should get credit.
Of course the post season will prove much. On the other hand our starters are getting more rest because of blow outs. Is the turning of the tide and once again – coaching? or players. I believe it is a little bit of both and we are rolling on the right side of good ball.
KevinA
December 11th, 2009
10:15 pm
oops ZaZa not rookie but young
Lacsho
December 11th, 2009
10:15 pm
What up Big RaY!!!
I’ll see you in phillips in 010. Amir plays his first basketball game tomorrow. Once again he was a beast on the soccer field this season. I had his team playing up in an older age group, and he was still beasting. I guess its time to work on his B-ball game. I think we’re going to the game Sunday.
JB
December 11th, 2009
10:18 pm
Teague has now had two very good games against this team and we’ve seen he can be very good when he has the ball in his hands and making decisions. I wish Woody would put the ball in his hands more or else he’s gonna do the same thing he did with Law by not letting him develop his PG skills.
Big Ray
December 11th, 2009
10:22 pm
JB ,
I know I wasn’t part of this particular conversation, but let me ask you something. What is your intention…to break the cycle of the perception you are criticizing, or to perpetuate it?
If European players were brought up to “play that way”, then how do you explain the ones that DON’T “play that way?”
I’ve heard guys like Frye and Aldridge get called soft all the time. Bosh has been maligned with that as well. I can’t believe you’ve never heard that before. Seriously, I’ve heard that all over the place. Don’t know how you missed it over the years…
Uh…Rasheed Wallace called soft? Dude shoots 3s, but I’ve NEVER, EVER heard him referred to as “soft”. You’re so far off base using him in that comparison, I don’t know what to tell you. He shoots roughly 2 threes a game, and he’s also the guy who teamed with Ben Wallace to dominate the East and win an NBA championship. Your analogy sprung a major leak when you included him in that list, sorry.
Like I said earlier: are you looking to break the perception, or just perpetuate both it, and an argument?
Big Ump
December 11th, 2009
10:22 pm
Samuel all I can say about some of these bloggers is amazing, amazing. We have all these HC’s on board tonight. We still winning folks no matter how you spin it. We should be enjoying the season instead of trying to play a blame game when we lose. Some of us just can’t wait for the team to do poorly so they can crank it back up. And believe me all NBA teams will have games that they will stink it up.
Samuel
December 11th, 2009
10:23 pm
Who the hel_ is Ilyasova. Delfino, give me a break. Soft is jacking up threes and playing no defense.
That Diantoni, Colangelo model that was supposed to be the wave of the future. Yes, I hate it.
I’ve herd of Sheed being called a lot of things but “soft’ is not one of them.I stand by my statements. has nothing to do with race but you’re welcome to call it what you want. If you’re soft, i’m calling you soft.
Big Ray
December 11th, 2009
10:24 pm
Lacsho ,
What’s good, homie? Keep molding that young’un into a worthy athlete. Few things make a father more proud.
See you in 2010!
Lacsho
December 11th, 2009
10:26 pm
LMAO!!!!!
Astro Joe
December 11th, 2009
10:26 pm
Maybe you guys can start a petition and have Teague’s jersey retired by the All-Star vreak.
Big Ray
December 11th, 2009
10:27 pm
Big Ump ,
Unfortunately you are correct. All I can say is, Woodson has one all-star and Mike Brown has three. Yet Cleveland is trying to keep pace with US, not the other way around, at least for now. Heh. I’d love to hear an argument for THAT one….
Astro Joe
December 11th, 2009
10:27 pm
All-Star break.
Najeh Davenpoop
December 11th, 2009
10:27 pm
JB, yeah it is somewhat subjective, because there are no stats to show how often a player makes physical contact on offense or defense. For the record, I don’t think every player who relies on jump shooting is soft — it’s only the ones who refuse to make physical contact. So a guy like Al Harrington wouldn’t fit the bill, because he regularly mixes it up inside too. I would call a guy like Channing Frye soft, though, since he has been a jump shooter and poor man to man defender his entire career despite playing what is traditionally the most contact-heavy position.
Obviously, like you pointed out, there are soft American players too. When I make general statements, I’m talking about percentages and majorities. There are going to be exceptions to every rule — we have one on our own team who wears #27. But for the number of Euroleague players in the NBA, there’s an astonishingly high percentage who fit the stereotype compared to American players (at least in my opinion — as you said, it is subjective), and the Raptors’ defensive shortcomings start and end there.
Big Ray
December 11th, 2009
10:28 pm
LOL@ Astro Joe….boy, you CRAZY! I knew you were playin’ possum. You’re back. No two ways about it
Lacsho
December 11th, 2009
10:29 pm
BIG RAY, per that text message earlier LMAO!!!!!
Big Ray
December 11th, 2009
10:30 pm
Good Lord, arguing semantics….after a blowout victory on the road, no less. Gotta love it…
Big Ray
December 11th, 2009
10:30 pm
Lacsho ,
LOL, what did I tell you?
Big Ray
December 11th, 2009
10:31 pm
I’m out. Gotta be suited, booted, and ready for duty at 0445 hrs. Time to catch them Zs, baby!
Peace out…
Lacsho
December 11th, 2009
10:33 pm
WTF Cleaveland??????
JB
December 11th, 2009
10:36 pm
Of course you don’t think Rasheed is soft! He gets technicals! He throws tantrums and towels at teammates. Tough!! That’s exactly my point. It’s all about perception. You don’t think a guy like Ilyasova is tough because he’s European and white, but Rasheed can get away with not rebounding or blocking shots and he’s tough? By the way, he doesn’t shoot two three pointers a game. It’s actually 4-5 a game for most of his career. Your point about Detroit being a great defensive team just proves my point, which is that basketball is a team game and the whole defensive unit is greater than the sum of the parts. Just look at our team. Joe, Crawford, Bibby are all poor defenders individually but they’re part of a great team defense.
JB
December 11th, 2009
10:42 pm
Najeh, I wasn’t talking about tonight’s game in particular. I agree the Raptors are just flat out soft, black white or purple. I’m just responding to a common stereotype I read everywhere on the net. I think you’re overestimating and you’re also ignoring the big factor about different styles and the Euros having to change their game to fit in over here, but…agree to disagree.
niremetal
December 11th, 2009
10:45 pm
Mike Brown and Woody are very similar in coaching styles. They focus on D and rebounding, and leave it to their most talented offensive players to figure out the scoring side. The result is tons of ISOs and bail-out shots. No team has ever won a title playing that type of ball on offense. Phil, Pop, Doc, Riley – all have actual offensive systems that emphasize movement.
ISOs with All-Stars will get it done in the regular season. But on the biggest stage against the best coaches and players, it breaks down. That’s why the Bulls and Lakers couldn’t break through until Phil came in, and why Larry Brown was able to break down the disorganized Lakers in ‘04 after the team’s stars decided that the triangle wasn’t a good idea, despite the fact that they had a vastly superior team on paper. Turns out that even with 3 of the greatest players of the past 20 years, a good coach figured out ways to stop ISO plays. When Phil came back and Kobe stopped tuning him out, the Lakers improved immediately (anyone else remember how close the Lakers came to knocking off the ‘06 Suns, despite having a team whose second and third offensive options were Lamar Odom and Smush Parker?). Amazing how that worked.
It’s fun watching the Hawks win now. But I’ve seen this movie before twice since I was born – Hawks teams that look great in the regular season and then collapse in the playoffs. So until May, I’m reserving judgment.
Astro Joe
December 11th, 2009
10:51 pm
Speaking of soft big men, I see that our current HOF PG, Teague, out-rebounded the 6′11″ LaMarcus Aldridge tonight. Good to see Aldridge pick-up his rebounding game in the absence of Oden. Aldridge is from Paris right? Paris, Texas!
RLP
December 11th, 2009
10:52 pm
One of the best statistics for judging a team is said to be point differential. The Hawks have the third best in the league behind only the Celtics and the Lakers at plus 7.7 per game. Pretty good company it you ask me. Is this the year the Hawks have a breakout season.
In the past the seven game series against the Celtics has been pointed to as the biggest series in this team’s development.. Now will this season be pointed to as the second big development in their development? How many of us are enjoying the fruits of this team’s accomplishments more than ever?
There is of course a long way to go but how can anyone not like what this team has done so far this year? We have a series of games against teams with poor records. Unlike in the recent past this team seems to have benefited from the lost to the Knicks. Enjoy this run as long as it lasts.
By the way – just for the record Ken S. prediction for the nest 10 games now stands at 2 Wins and 0 losses.
Walt
December 11th, 2009
10:55 pm
I agree with JB that it’s unfair to call Euros soft just because they’re tall and don’t get physical. They grow up playing a different type of game over there. You can’t just expect them to come here and immediately pick up physical post play just like you can’t expect every American to go overseas and be a great shooter and ball handler. I bet many US players would struggle in Europe. That doesn’t mean they’re bad or not ____ enough. It just means they don’t do well in that type of league.
Ken Strickland
December 11th, 2009
10:59 pm
I hope someone else has been paying attention to what happens when you allow your bench players to contribute. I just hope Woody can appreciate their contributions and potential when we play the better teams, like Orlando, Cleveland, Boston etc. Good win tonight Hawks.
Also, we’ve played excellent DEF for the 3rd consecutive gm, and for the 3rd consecutive gm we’ve primarily played straight up man to man DEF. I hope that hasn’t gone unnoticed as well.
JB
December 11th, 2009
11:03 pm
What’s great about 16-6 is that we earned it. We’ve had one of the toughest schedules in the league.
Samuel
December 11th, 2009
11:05 pm
Walt,
If they are tall and don’t get physical, what do you call them then?
Naj,
I disagree. Where was Phil’s triangle a couple of years ago when a healthy KG and company totally took them out their game. It’s not about the offensive scheme it’s about the players. According to many here, Eddie Jordan and his “Princeton Offense” was a great offense but it don’t look so hot right now. Pop and the Spurs are struggling because his “players” are getting old and can’t turn it up offensive or defensively.
The Jordan era Bulls won because of stifling defense and the greatest player of all time.
RLP
December 11th, 2009
11:08 pm
The Hawks now have a winning percentage of ..727 %. If they continued at that pace for the year they would win 60 games which is 3 more than the franchise record. AND if they defeat a team with only 2 wins this year then that winning projection will increase to 61 games for the year.
I am not claiming that will happen. I just think it is important to put that into the perspective of what is currently happening with this year’s team and what a wonderful job they have done so far this year.
Najeh Davenpoop
December 11th, 2009
11:13 pm
“Of course you don’t think Rasheed is soft! He gets technicals! He throws tantrums and towels at teammates. Tough!! ”
He also plays man to man defense on Dwight Howard better than arguably anyone else in the NBA, which is the main reason the Celtics signed him. That’s why I don’t consider him soft.
I haven’t seen more than about five minutes of Ilyasova or Delfino this season, so I can’t pass judgment on them. Like me and Sam have demonstrated, people do have different opinions on “softness”. I don’t think being a perimeter oriented offensive big man alone makes you soft — like you point out, Sheed has been a jump shooter most of his career. It’s the willingness to mix it up physically, on either end of the floor, that separates people who are soft from people who are not, at least to me. Andrea Bargnani is as athletic as any 7-footer in the league, and could easily be a much better defender and low post presence if he wanted. It’s his mentality that makes him soft, not his physical abilities or his talents, and although he’s made huge strides in other areas, he’s no better in his mentality than he was on day one of his NBA career.
That leads me to my next point — it’s fair to say that you can’t expect a Euroleague player to come here and immediately adapt to the more physical style of play. But if you look at a guy like Dirk Nowitzki, you see a guy who was as soft as ever when he first arrived here, but who worked hard to adapt to the American style of play and made himself into a legit superstar. I don’t even see that improvement out of most Euro players who come here — most of them seem to never improve in that regard. Who knows, maybe you are right and I am over-representing a small sample of Euro players. It just seems to me there’s a much higher percentage of softies among them than among Americans.
Najeh Davenpoop
December 11th, 2009
11:15 pm
But anyway, like you said, agree to disagree, and back to the Hawks who have zero soft players of any background on the team…
Samuel
December 11th, 2009
11:16 pm
Dream on Ken,
Randmo, Pigfoot and JTO will not sniff the floor against good teams. Teague will get his chance but if he can’t knock down the open shot in “pressure” situations he will find his way back to the bench. Good defensive players will dare him to shoot. Anyways, he should get plenty of burn in the next week or so if we take care of business against Jersey and Memphis. Bibby should be able to rest that ankle. Good
Bulls targeting Johnson?
Two NBA sources said the Chicago Bulls are emerging as one of the leading candidates to land Joe Johnson(notes) when the Atlanta Hawks guard becomes a free agent after the season.
Johnson, sources say, is intrigued about teaming up with Bulls point guard Derrick Rose(notes). Johnson’s agent, Arn Tellem, also is close to Bulls chairman Jerry Reinsdorf and the Bulls would love an elite perimeter shooting threat to make up for the loss of Ben Gordon(notes).
The New York Knicks have been mentioned as another possible suitor. Johnson played under Mike D’Antoni when he coached the Phoenix Suns. A source also said Johnson would have interest in returning to the Boston Celtics, who drafted him in 2001, but such a scenario is laughable unless there is a sign-and-trade because the Celtics won’t have salary-cap room.
The Atlanta Hawks, of course, can still offer Johnson the most money. While Johnson turned down a four-year, $60 million extension before the season, the Hawks can offer him up to six years in a deal. The Hawks also are an emerging Eastern Conference power and Johnson is the only player in their rotation that will be a free agent next summer.
“We had some great dialogue this summer,” Hawks GM Rick Sund said. “While there was the possibility of extending his contract, the rules are more favorable to be a free agent next summer. That’s the route he wanted to go. We are going to do everything to keep him.”
Samuel
December 11th, 2009
11:21 pm
Teague=A healthy Speedy
Walt
December 11th, 2009
11:23 pm
Sam,
They’re called whatever any other tall, non-physical, 3pt shooting NBA player is called. JB named some. Kevin Durant, Charlie Villanueva, Jeff Green, Ryan Anderson, Troy Murphy, Ryan Gomes, Antawn Jamison, and Lamar Odom are some others.