Joe Smith out, and some tidbits
Hello, Hawks fans-
Hope you are all well. A few things.
1) Joe Smith won’t be making the trip to Toronto. He’ll stay home for treatment, and Othello Hunter will be activated in his place. It’s possible Smith could play Sunday against New Jersey, but it would seem like that’d be an outside shot, perhaps somewhat dependent on what Hunter does against Toronto. Mike Woodson said Marvin Williams could be an option at 4 behind Al Horford if he doesn’t get what he wants from Hunter.
Smith had his hand in a wrap Thursday. He said the thumb was very sore.
2) A quick thought on Wednesday’s game:
They got a lot of help from the Bulls (Kirk Hinrich, playing after missing the last six games with a sprained thumb, missed all nine of his shots) but the Hawks played pretty tough defense for the second game in a row. They held Dallas and Chicago under 40 percent shooting and, if the fourth quarter hadn’t turned into an AAU game between the backups, they would have held both teams to their season lows for points.
I asked Joe Johnson if this was a turning point, defensively, for the team.
“I don’t know,” he said. “I hope so. We’ve been pretty good.”
3.) I think someone might have posted this already, but the Hawks reportedly lost $2 million last season, according to Forbes magazine. The report also said that the team is worth $306 million, which is 21st in the league.
4) To move along one of our favorite topics, Marvin Williams. Woodson on No. 24, from before Wednesday’s game:
“He’s still young. … When we got him, he was only 18, 19 years old. (He was 19 on opening night) He played on a national title team and played 20 minutes a game. He hasn’t played much ball is kind of how I look at it. He’s still learning.”
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439 comments Add your comment
Ken Strickland
December 10th, 2009
10:50 pm
RAJAH-Ordinarily, hiring an OFF coordinator for this team would be an excellent idea. However, we’re talking about a HC that won’t even assign certain detailed oriented tasks that he’s stated he has no interest in to his assistants, like managing players mins or monitoring the OFF.
Forcing him to accept an OFF coordinator would setup a situation simular to the one the Falcons had under Dan Reeves when ABlank forced him to hire a DEF coordinator. Reeves felt very uncomfortable and threatened by having WPhillips running his DEF. He also had the same insecurities and felt threatened by having MShannahan as his OFF coordinator at Denver. I can see the same situation manifesting itself with Woodson.
Besides, if Sund thinks Woodson needs an OFF coordinator after 6yrs, it’s better to let him go and hire a new HC along with that OC.
E43
December 11th, 2009
1:27 am
the 10 man rotation must get significant minutes and theres no excuse jeff teagues situation is begining to look too much similar to a certain point guard tennure with the hawks.
id rather see othelo/morris/colins plug into joe smiths minute slot than have joe playing 40 minutes again.we had 5 allstar choices despite everyone but joe and all taking significant playing time cuts
if marvin had plays run for him im sure hed be a beast by now. soo much iso joe was what killed the hawks. now he might not have the shooting percentage but. his shooting percentage suggest that he can put up 20+games given the right amount of minutestelling him to be more agressive is not necesarily a good thing coz he is visibly trying too hard. he should just do like old times and let the game come to him. if someone gets hurt and he has to pick up his tempo im sure hed keep you from mentioning his name on trade scenarios. Joe is the man in atlanta everyone elses minutes droping is proof.
Hawks Fan In New Orleans
December 11th, 2009
2:16 am
Joe is the boss – but m new nickname for Jamal Crawford is Jamal the Great!
BTW with The Magic loss tonight – the Hawks inch to 1 1/2 games behind Orlando for tops in the Southeast Division. With an easy (on paper) stretch of games lined up. Exciting times indeed to be a fan.
mountain dawg
December 11th, 2009
2:31 am
Teague is tentative and indecisive. Until he can become more “alpha” and believe in himself, he should not start for the playoff bound Hawks. What is wrong with Bibby starting? He is a veteran PG surrounded by youngsters. We need him in there.
nunna yo biznezz
December 11th, 2009
3:39 am
mike woodson said,”Marvin Williams could be an option at 4 behind Al Horford if he doesn’t get what he wants from Hunter.”
Are u kidding me?? is this guy for real??
othello has not played in 1 game this year!!
no game time experience at all this year..
but,u are willing to throw him out in the fire and give him a one and done ultimatum..
well u know what coach.
if he fails,it will be your fault..
you have done nothing to help develope this young man and his talent at all..
it was josh childress who went back to his stanford coaches with help on his defense and his offensive game to help him to get where he is today and the last year when he played here..not u and your staff!!
it was akeem the dream who helped josh smith with his rebounding game and his low post play 2 years ago that helped him last year and this year..remember everybody??
not woody or his staff!!
and,so,it has dawned on you that u want to set othello up to fail,and talk crap about he must come out and play or you will use marvin at the number 4?
why not,develope him coach??
why not give this guy some playing time,even if its every other game to get himself acclamated with this team..
you have done nothing with the young talent that u got thru the drafting of billy knight,not even with al horford..
he was already who he was when we got him..point blank!!
every week u say something weak..
every freaking weak u say something that makes u look like u don’t know nothing..
this team wins in spite of u..
northcyde
December 11th, 2009
4:26 am
Woody can’t win with some fans. That’s why he simply brush off his haters to the side. That dude could win a championship, and you’d still have people complaining about Teague’s playing time or the fact that we didn’t beat a team by double digits, on our way to a title.
I truly ( for real ) feel sorry for some of these guys though. We’re 15 – 6, but the complainers are so used to complaining, that they can’t even enjoy this team.
LOL . . we have to be the only fan base that has some guys crying about our 1OTH MAN getting increased playing time.
wordsmithtom
December 11th, 2009
7:15 am
Nunna Yo Bisnezz,
You are correct: Hunter hasn’t played this season. He did, however, get extensive minutes in preseason and played last year; he practices with the squad. Coach knows what Hunter can do. I didn’t see the same “one and done” ultimatum you seem to dislike. I see a coach pointing out options to replace the 9min-3 pps he loses in Joe S.
Also, Hunter knows Coach’s system; he also knows the score: be ready when called upon. Coach is giving him 2 days to “Get your head right, son, or I’ll find someone who will get their head right”.
Bench players have NO GUARANTEE of minutes or development. I don’t get this “it’s somebody else’s fault if I don’t succeed” crap. It’s HUNTER’S fault if HUNTER doesn’t answer the call. Period. The NBA is NOT an entitlement: it’s a meritocracy.
I hope Hunter answers the call. I also see no problem with slipping MW into the 4 slot for 8-10 minutes of backup and letting Evans pick up a few min in his place. MW has never been forced to bang with the 4’s of this league. He’ big enough and would offer a lot of matchup problems, if he is willing to bang. By being able to step out and shoot the 3ball, he creates mismatches. We already know he will rebound. At this point in the season, I’d as soon see the experiment with MW…especially if Hunter won’t hunt. I know MW will bust butt, even when he’s missing shots. He hustles.
That’s what Woodson’s saying: “If I don’t see what I want from Hunter”. He WANTS to see “BUSTING BUTT” in the minutes…not entitlement. He is not only outlining his options, but challenging a young man to “show me”. Man up, or man out….
Big Ump
December 11th, 2009
7:27 am
Northcyde you are so right. Sometime I think they be watching a different games then the rest of do. Some of the stuff they post is outrageous. Do you ever notice when the Hawks win they come with some garbage that the reason they won is because the Hawks did what they had been complainig about or the Hawks or the HC read their post.They always write 1 sentence about how they give the team and HC credit and
then write a half of page b—hing about the HC and that they could do a better job. If they said they are a Hawk fan like they claim,why not go to Sund and tell him that they the man for the job and can take the team to the next level. I’m quite sure all the real Hawks fans wouldn’t
have a problem with that at all. You got a couple of blogger’s who get very upset when you don’t agree with them and then you become a HC lover or other names. But watch them cause they will try to revers that.
Also have you ever notice blogger’s agree and disagree with each other and no one calling anybody names and then this certain blogger come on and start calling names because someone don’t see his point of view. I know you know who I’m talking about. Sure the team and and HC don’t play or coach like we think they should at times. but one thing about it and I don’t care how you try to spin it, the Hawks are playing decent basketball this year and winning. So don’t give me this crap that they should have won all there games if they had did this of that.
Can you tell me what team have won every game? Thought so.
Macaroni Tony
December 11th, 2009
7:41 am
I think we should support the blog http://www.crashingtheglass.com. With good support, this guy blog could be big.
Macaroni Tony
December 11th, 2009
7:42 am
I know that Toronto will want revenge from their last whipping so we have to play hard. I also know that Bibby is not 100%, so JT minutes should increase today.
Fundamentals
December 11th, 2009
7:52 am
I love the idea of bringing Hunter in for some work. I pray he focusses on tight D and rebounding. Hopefully he’ll get some put-backs on offensive boards and potentially a few blocks. The guy is very athletic. If he doesn’t try to shoot to impress he should do fine. With a good showing I pray he can sit Collins on the end of the bench in a suit for a while. Joe Smith needs to take the time to recoup 100% and give Othella time to prove he’s put in the work. Othello is a determined kid. I’m excited to see what happens.
Who’s to say we can’t move Randmo and ZaZa out at the same time instead of the usual Smith & ZaZa? I’m definitely for giving Randmo more minutes based on his performances this year.
Next few games are critical wins, but definitely a time to give minutes to the 2nd unit for development. If we burn our starters trying to win every game we run the risk of running out of gas w/ no replacement when the tough stretch comes early in 2010.
4th seed is not guaranteed. We got some tough games ahead. Bench play and a solid effort from all starters is critical to maintaining the 4th seed and potentially moving up.
Steve Brown
December 11th, 2009
8:11 am
This is all make believe. By all reports Joe Johnson is gone. As the season progresses players (if they care) will start to feel that it makes little sense playing with him as he is out for himself. He can’t be the team leader under this circumstance. Get real and trade him ASAP, let’s see what our actual team looks like going forward.
Astro Joe
December 11th, 2009
8:16 am
Abe, I didn’t know that you had returned… good to hear form you. Here’s the reality (as I see it), Teague is this team’s 4th string PG. Behind Bibby, Joe and Jamal. And honestly, I would prefer to see any of those 3 running the offense right now. Yes, Teague needs to be developed. His minutes should increase by maybe 2-4 minutes every 20 games. But he is NOT the 2nd string PG… so to expect him to get 20 minutes over these veteran playmakers just doesn’t seem realistic. I know what we all want from Teague…. but some times you end up with Jordan Farmar and not Devin Harris.
Astro Joe
December 11th, 2009
8:22 am
Oh, and add in that Teague was the 7th PG taken in the draft. Show me where the 7th best player drafted at his position gets 20 minutes a game for a team on pace to win 50 games in his rookie season. (And Ty Lawson is truly the 3rd best guard on Denver… behind Billups and Smith. Teague is not our 3rd best guard).
JeJe
December 11th, 2009
8:38 am
I know exactly what will happen tonight:
It’s the same thing as last week. We won a big game mid-week (this week it was Chicago — last week it was Toronto). Tonight it will be a tough game in a very hostile environment. Woodson will ABANDON everything that went right the other night, including his rotations. He will NOT use RandMo or Collins even though Joe Smith is out. This is EXACTLY what happened last week. WOODSON WILL REVERT BACK TO HIS OLD SELF AND I AM 100 % OF THIS. HE WILL NOT USE THE BENCH WHICH WILL BE THIS TEAM’S DOWNFALL COME APRIL.
Also, Toronto has played better lately.
WOODSON, USE THE BENCH TONIGHT. DO NOT RUN A 6.5 MAN ROTATION
Ken Strickland
December 11th, 2009
8:42 am
NUNNA YO BIZNEZZ-your latest comments are erie because I started to post the same basic reply to his stupid comments. Is that his idea of establishing confidence in a young player, especially one that hasn’t had one min of PT since last yr. YOU GET ONE CHANCE AND ONE CHANCE ONLY TO GIVE ME EVERYTHING I’M LOOKING FOR OR YOU’RE DONE.
That statement begs me to ask the following questions.
(1) Woodson has stated more than once that his philosophy is to go elsewhere to get what you wants if he doesn’t get it from a particular player. Well, does that mean when JJ and Bibby are dominating the ball and the OFF with ISO’s, one on one and hoisting ill advised 3’s, and you extend their mins and refuse to use your bench when they do it, does that mean they’re giving you what you want?
(2)When the OFF noticably slows down and struggles to score, and both JJ and Bibby are struggling to hit their outside shots, does your habit of playing them extended mins in this situation mean they’re giving you what you want?
It appears that whenever this situation happens you always seem to limit bench use and ride the backs of the culprits. IS THAT REALLY CONSIDERED GOOD COACHING?
Have you noticed how some of the Woody lovers are quick to make an issue of anyone that points out the obvious flaws in Woody’s coaching philosophy, approach towards developing young players, limited OFF,as well as limited use of strategy, adjustments and bench? Have you also notice how they are quick to address only the fact that you’re complaining or stating an observation, but are very careful and deliberate in not addressing the actual complaint or observation itself. There’s never any, YOU ARE WRONG AND HERE’S WHY, or NO REFUTING THE STATS OR FACTS presented by presenting anything other than “BUT WE’RE WINNING or OUR RECORD IN 15-6.
They use the old childish approach, which like encountering a person that has a booger hanging from his/her nose and you simply point it out. Instead of thanking you and correcting the problem, they become embarrassed and start making derogatory remarks about you for bringing it to their attention.
Ignoring issues just because you’re winning can end up having longterm effects. Last yr Cleveland led the NBA with 66 wins and only 16 loses. They were dismantled and embarrassed by the Magic, who took advantage of their major weakness. They failed to address that problem and have already lost 7 or their first 22gms because other teams are now taking advantage of their unaddressed weaknesses.
The HC’s of the better NBA teams know when they play the Hawks, Woodson has a tendency to shorten his rotation, slow the OFF down, go perimeter and allow JJ and Bibby to dominate the ball and the OFF. They counter by using their bench liberally to wear down our starters and save their starters for a strong 4th qtr push. They also make an obvious effort to double JJ to either get the ball out of his hands or force him to run out the clock pounding the ball trying to beat the double teams. WOODY ROUTINELY MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO ADJUSTMENTS AND HIS HAREM WANTS EVERYONE TO PRETEND IT’S NOT AN ISSUE SINCE WE STILL MANAGE TO HAVE A WINNING RECORD.
Come playoff time, we’re going to end up being a lessor version of what Cleveland was last yr and suffer the same fate because Woody and his harem refuse to see the forest for the trees.
I remember before the season started when our friend SAMUEL stated that the Hawks weren’t in the same league with Cleveland, Orlando and Boston. Cleveland is really struggling, especially against lesser teams, because like most of you Woody lovers, they chose to ignore their weaknesses. And like us, the team is carrying the HC and winning in spite of him. DOES THAT SOUND FAMILIAR?
RLP
December 11th, 2009
8:58 am
With Orlando’s lost last night and a tough game on the road against Phoenix, a team that is 7-0 at home this year, it is possible at the end of the evening the Hawks could be tied with the Magic for first in the division and second in the East! I agree with those that point to a tough stretch in January. That is why December is so important to the Hawks. If they can win a bunch of these games going into the tough stretch they their confidence will rise which will help sustain them later on.
Will they be able to overcome the lack of consistency that saw them lose to teams they should have beaten? Will a good stretch here help them defeat the Cavs? Think what a confidence builder winning a home and home against one of the East’s so-called elite would do for their psyche.
I have always advocated that teams should not get too high after a big win nor too low after a bad loss. I especially think that is true for a veteran team. So far this year the Hawks seem to have embraced that attitude. Sure they lost a game that should never have been lost to the Knicks but then they were able to turn it around the very next night against a team they had not defeated in several years and who is a definite contender in the West the very next evening.
Sure they had a series of games where they did not play up to expectations. But their mental toughness prevented them from allowing the team to get down after those losses and start changing things around. I think the team can use these games in December to prepare for a tough January. What they do in the next few games could give them the confidence to use that time in January to make a statement that these birds can fly this year.
But even if they do not make that statement this year’s team has already exhibited a level of maturity beyond anything in their near pass. I have no doubts that this year’s team will be better than last year’s team and be a solid, established Big Four Eastern power. But I also think it is possible that this year can be one of those dream years that fans will remember forever. In either event this year is going to be a special one for the team and for us as fans.
Daniel
December 11th, 2009
9:03 am
Geez guys… the sky is not really falling. Outside of Orlando, Boston and Clevland are very beatable. And, really do you guys think Stan Van Gundy is a better coach than Woody? (For those with an obvious agenda, I already know the answer)
OK, I am going to say something here that I thought I would NEVER say.
Randolph Morris may be a good option off the bench tonight. (I think I just threw up in my mouth a little).
He has actually showed some fluidity and toughness in his limited minutes. Now, this my just be a figment of playing next to Collins, who makes my game look like Hakeem’s. With Joe Smith out, I would rather see Randolph than Hunter. Toronto’s interior is like a wet paper bag on defense and he could bring some toughness to the second unit to make up for the loss of Joe Smith.
*I really can’t believe I have said good things about Randolph, but I did. I guess the Christmas spirit is hitting early this year.
Mychelfromatl
December 11th, 2009
9:03 am
Oh my!!!! The Hawks may just go to the Finals this years. You heard it here first!
The reason being is the Hawks are about to get snubbed for the All-Star game. These dudes gonna be pissed!!!
As of today, no Hawk would make the NBA All-Star game SMH.
Josh Smith is the closest to making the All-Star game and he is 5th in voting among fowards in the East SMDH. ALSO A MAJOR SMH AT TRACEY MCGRADY MAKING THE ALL STAR TEAM!! Here how the voting is currently going:
Eastern Conference
Forwards: LeBron James (Clev) 649,327; Kevin Garnett (Bos) 533,187; Chris Bosh (Tor) 303,550; Paul Pierce (Bos) 131,379; Josh Smith (Atl) 109,404; Danny Granger (Ind) 100,122; Andre Iguodala (Phi) 75,146; Michael Beasley (Mia) 58,461; Hedo Turkoglu (Tor) 55,416; Rashard Lewis (Orl) 46,073; Luol Deng (Chi) 37,428.
Guards: Dwyane Wade (Mia) 672,227; Vince Carter (Orl) 292,002; Gilbert Arenas (Was) 212,526; Ray Allen (Bos) 208,276 Derrick Rose (Chi) 196,059; Allen Iverson (Phi) 136,976*; Joe Johnson (Atl) 118,964; Rajon Rondo (Bos) 113,371; Jose Calderon (Tor) 68,084; Mike Bibby (Atl) 48,935.
Centers: Dwight Howard (Orl) 625,279; Shaquille O’Neal (Cle) 206,657; Andrea Bargnani (Tor) 67,310; Al Horford (Atl) 52,747; Andrew Bogut (Mil) 45,920; Brook Lopez (NJ) 39,420; Jermaine O’Neal (Mia) 38,956; Rasheed Wallace (Bos) 36,855; Kendrick Perkins (Bos) 19,408; Brad Miller (Chi) 17,188; Tyson Chandler (Cha) 14,062; Samuel Dalembert, (Phi) 13,969.
Western Conference
Forwards: Carmelo Anthony (Den) 588,958; Dirk Nowitzki (Dal) 366,300; Pau Gasol (LAL) 280,758; Tim Duncan (SA) 271,321; Kevin Durant (OKC) 177,205; Trevor Ariza (Hou) 168,167; Shawn Marion (Dal) 161,653; Luis Scola (Hou) 134,321; Ron Artest (LAL) 99,209; Lamar Odom (LAL) 85,817; LaMarcus Aldridge (Por) 70,588.
Guards: Kobe Bryant (LAL) 692,518; Tracy McGrady (Hou) 281,545; Steve Nash (Pho) 272,135; Chris Paul (NO) 248,049; Jason Kidd (Dal) 207,247; Jason Terry (Dal) 131,422; Aaron Brooks (Hou) 131,167; Chauncey Billups (Den) 112,509; Brandon Roy (Por) 106,416; Deron Williams (Utah) 94,715; Manu Ginobili (SA) 75,392.
Centers: Amar’e Stoudemire (Pho) 447,776; Andrew Bynum (LAL) 299,484; Nene (Den) 90,439; Marc Gasol (Mem) 75,765; Greg Oden (Por) 73,874; Al Jefferson (Min) 48,676; Antonio McDyess (SA) 46,323; Mehmet Okur (Utah) 35,606; Marcus Camby (LAC) 35,471; Andris Biedrins (GS) 28,287; Emeka Okafor (NO) 19,827; Spencer Hawes (Sac) 10,733.
*While Allen Iverson appears among Western Conference guards on the paper ballot because he began the season with Memphis, his votes will count toward the Eastern Conference guards due to his signing with Philadelphia Dec. 3.
Daniel
December 11th, 2009
9:05 am
RLP- excellent post. Here, here.
Daniel
December 11th, 2009
9:06 am
Mychel- thank goodness the players and coaches get to vote. The fan voting is beyond embarrasing.
KevinA
December 11th, 2009
9:33 am
Fun stats
If we compare 2008 with 2009. 21 game average vrs 2008 82 game average.
Turn over +1.5
1.5 x 21 games = 31.5 extra possessions
Assist +1.5
1.5 x 21 games = 62 pt’s? Have no Idea how many of these assist were 3 pt makes or shots with and and ones.
KevinA
December 11th, 2009
9:42 am
Daniel
December 11th, 2009
9:06 am
The fan voting is beyond embarrasing.
McGrady? Allen Iverson, Shaq – Mercy They should have a game played requirement.
O'Brien
December 11th, 2009
9:58 am
Astro Joe,
I agree that Teague is our 4th PG. However, my concern is if Bibby gets hurt (especially for an extended period of time). Do we start Crawford at PG? And if we do, who becomes our scorer off the bench? And do you really want Crawford having to look for his shot and run the offense?
Or would we start Teague at PG? Keep in mind that although he averages 9 mpg, there have been probably 10 games or so where he has received less than 5 mpg. What can we realistically expect out of him?
I’m just concerned that he is on the same road that Acie Law was on. The good thing is there are a lot of games left in the season, so Woody still has time to get the young fellow more PT.
I think the game tonight will be a lot closer than the last meeting. Especially if Toronto is knocking down 3’s. If our 3’s are not falling, I hope the Hawks will drive to the paint, because they cannot handle Josh and Al.
I also think RandMo is a better option than Hunter off the bench. I dont know if I would want him in the game at the same time with ZaZa though. If you play with him Al, then you can play RandMo at center or PF.
Grandad
December 11th, 2009
10:06 am
tyger:
I do not think N.O. would part with Paul w/o Josh or Al being in the conversation.
darrell starks:
Start thinking; Joakim Noah, as a possible alternative to AB. Chicago’s season is in disarray, maybe we could make the heist. We would have to take on a salary [dump] to make it work. I love the kids energy and motor. Plus he got under LBJ’s skin. Sorry if some of this is a repeat.
Blog monster has been grabbing some of my stuff, so I’m not exactly sure what made it through and what didn’t. I must admit that I am
technology impaired.
Kudos to ‘K.S.’ – keep bangin’ away. I’m with you on Marv, amongst most other points as well.
Marv was not drafted to be a role player. he also was drafted [2] not [3] if memory serves. He was drafted to be the next KG. That was never going to happen as he did not have the size nor athleticism. I still remember BK and or MW saying that he was not as athletic as they thought
when he was brought in for a w/o. However, he is a great kid who accepts his role. Had we not brought in Joe; his role would be completely different as well as his perception.
K.S.:
I would still like to enhance Al’s production, perception,and productivity by getting the defensive middleman I covet. J.Noah is on my new wishlist. Instead of being undersized and *overachieving[Al/Josh/size] on a nightly basis, I have a vision of being equal
to or overmatching the opponent [size] and still *overachieving.
*better athlete/energy/hustle/outrunning/outworking/etc.
**Josh and Al certainly bring these attributes to the table.
Occasionally you guys may see a post by ‘Grandad’. If it contains
cursing and or vulgarity, then it is not the real Grandad. Please attempt to discern between the two. No, I’m not bipolar, that I know of anyway. Ms. Grandad called me a moron the other day but I don’t think they’re the same thing.
Fundamentals
December 11th, 2009
10:11 am
Randmo deserves minutes. Can’t say it enough. Can’t believe I keep saying it! It makes me smile every time. He can prove his worthy by helping to contain Bosh tonight who will retaliate with a monster game. They’re gonna play hard after what we did to them. It’ll be a tough game. Hoepfully we play our game and smash them again.
All Star voting won’t matter. It’s what the coaches decide with the real All-Stars that’ll come into play. I honestly hope our boys get snubbed to #1 give them much needed rest, and #2 to light a fire that’ll burn well into the playoffs. If we roll in with some fire till June they’ll be voted in next year.
Folks gotta see us to know us? How have we performed in our nationally televised games? Don’t mention Boston a few years back to justify it either. We’ve choked most every time we got a chance to really prove we have 1st tier players and a 1st tier team. Everyone doesn’t watch Fox Sports South.
Rufus1
December 11th, 2009
10:41 am
Not a Woodson Lover
I have noticed over the years that the hawks win totals have increased with the aquisition of veteran talent and not the development of young talent. Can anyone give me any significant improvement in any of our young players game…other than Marvin and some on this blog thinks he is a BUM or Clown.
I KNOW WE ARE WINNING, BUT CAN ANY OF TELL ME WE ARE WINNING BECAUSE OF HIM OR THE VETERN TALENT. I KNOW HE HAS NOT DEVELOPED A PG AND IT’S BEEN 6 YEARS. COLLISON AND MAYNOR WERE DRAFTED AFTER TEAGUE AND BROOKS WAS DRAFTED 21…ARE WE JUST DRAFTING THE WRONG PEOPLE. . I AM OPEN MINDED….PLEASE CHANGE MY MIND ABOUT WOODSON.
Ken Sugiura
December 11th, 2009
10:52 am
a lot of excellent takes here. i’m glad we’re off (at least a little bit) the Woodson is a bum/Woodson is a genius rants.
I’d say this about Marvin. I think at this point, you have to forget that he was a No. 2 pick and forget who was drafted after him. Those are sunk costs. I think you just have to deal with who he is and work from there.
O’Brien – I don’t think Woodson knows if he would start Teague or Crawford. When Bibby was hurt in New Orleans, I don’t think he’d made up his mind when Bibby decided he could go. And this is a copout answer, but I think it would probably depend on how far Teague had gotten, who the other PG is, etc. My guess, though, is that it’d be Teague, but Woodson would keep a close eye on him.
For what it’s worth – I thought this was interesting. Woodson almost never says anything to players coming off the floor after a substitution, but at some point Wednesday Teague came off, and Woodson encouraged him and a slap on the butt. Woodson’s ability to develop point guards is up for debate, but I don’t doubt him when he says he sees his potential and wants to get him in the game.
It’s fun to talk about, but I can’t see the Hornets trading Paul. Look at it from New Orleans’ perspective. I don’t think there’s anyone on the Hawks roster that would appease fans if the Hornets traded Paul.
KevinA – good crunching. I think one thing that has been overlooked (including by me) is the turnovers. It means a lot more possessions than the other team, and turnovers obviously lead a lot of times to fast breaks the other way. I’d be interested to see which group on the floor makes the most/least turnovers per minute.
As for Othello, I think as long as he defends and bangs, Woodson will be happy with him. He’d have to do a lot to unseat Collins, though. As wordsmithtom pointed out, Woodson knows what he has in him. If he was the more useful piece to the team at this point, he’d be suited up.
Ken Sugiura
December 11th, 2009
10:54 am
and I’m not blocking anyone just because i don’t agree with them. i think i may have deleted one or two posts since i’ve started blogging, and that was for language.
KevinA
December 11th, 2009
10:57 am
Who has improved? Marvin, Chills, Josh, ZaZa, Flip and Al. Jamal is also playing under the Woody system than for other coaches or systems so far. JJ is now a three time All-Star under the Woody system.
You can be the Judge of how well Woody has done. Was it the organic growth or coaching or both. Should they be better? or are they on track. Clearly 47 wins are more than 13. Did you just start following the Hawks?
Daniel
December 11th, 2009
11:02 am
Ken- Othello is not going to unseat Collins, because they don’t play the same position. Hunter is 3/4 and Collins is just a lumbering 5. The position in question is really Randolph Morris’s as the 3rd pf off the bench.
Ken Strickland
December 11th, 2009
11:06 am
KEVIN-
KevinA
December 11th, 2009
11:14 am
Speaking of developing players, why don’t we feed the ball to Al more. As we play some of these weaker teams this would be the perfect time to work on some post moves. If we gave up a few 3pt shots per game and fed the ball to Al it would not only get him more comfortable with his post moves but prob get Josh a couple more rebounds. Hard to think it would hurt the team FG%.
KevinA
December 11th, 2009
11:16 am
Ken Strickland ,
yes?
Fundamentals
December 11th, 2009
11:17 am
If we move Collins to the all you can eat seats it’ll hopefully give him a wake-up call. Hunter has some passion. He wants to make it in the league. He’s gonna give what he’s got every night. I say suit him up instead of Collins. Use he and Randmo more and see what happens. Give them each 3-5 minutes per game in a solid segment. None of this last minute crap. Give them enough time to at least begin to get a sweat going. They can’t screw up that badly that fast. Both kids have earned at least a few minutes in the next 5-6 games. Especially since the games are sub 500 teams.
Collins doesn’t deserve a spot at the present time. Get him on a diet, strength and cardio regimine and work him back into uniform in March. That way he’s an effective piece for the playoffs. Till then develop the two that might be here in 5 years.
Fundamentals
December 11th, 2009
11:18 am
Definitely agree with Kevin A about feeding Al more!
Daniel
December 11th, 2009
11:20 am
Fundamentals- what has Othello done to “deserve” playing time? Are you going to practice?
Rufus1
December 11th, 2009
11:30 am
KevinA
I have been a Hawks Fan since 2000. The players you are refering to are all 5 and 6 year players. Now look at some of the players drafted with them and some players development after 2 or 3 years and how they are doing(Deng, Iguodola, Brooks, Rondo, Roy, Devin Harris, Gay and Stuckey). None of the players we have drafted have come close to being an allstar.
To Recap 6 years of coaching, 5 TOP 12 DRAFT PICKS AND 3 high priced free agent = 50wins
IT IS JUST HARD FOR ME TO BELEIVE THAT SOMEONE ELSE COULD NOT HAVE DONE BETTER OR CAN DO BETTER.
Numberonehawksfan
December 11th, 2009
11:37 am
I don’t know why everyone keeps with all of the “is Al Horford a center talk”. Why does everything have to be so prototypical? There are only a few bona-fide “centers” in the NBA and why trade hustle and athleticism for some (generally) slow player that either slows down a running team or in Cleveland’s case, disrupts your offensive players from getting points in the paint. I like the idea of having 4 quick and talented players on the floor and run Boston and Cleveland in the ground. I clearly see Orlando as the best team in the East and if the Hawks play up to their capability, they will match up very well with the Magic. There are only two centers in the NBA that I would take over Horford and that’s Dwight Howard and Will Bynum and no I didn’t forget Shaq or Perkins…GO HAWKS!!!
Daniel
December 11th, 2009
11:38 am
Rufus- Are you seriously suggesting that the list you just gave represents players who are better and more accomplished than Josh and Al? You actually used Deng? He makes Marvin look like a consistent player.
Fundamentals
December 11th, 2009
11:42 am
Hunter is young and hungry. He played well in the preseason. He’s done well whenever we had to use him. Given what Collins has presented who would you feel is more deserving of a shot? Either get Collins in game shape or put him in a suit. At least Othella is in game shape and ready to play! What is your response to that argument?
Fundamentals
December 11th, 2009
11:45 am
Has Bynum really proven he’s a better piece than Horford?
I like Dwight and Brooke Lopez from what I’ve seen so far. Hated Brooke’s attitude on draft day, but he seems to be a monster in the making regardless of their record.
Numberonehawksfan
December 11th, 2009
11:47 am
@ Rufus, Obviously you haven’t been following the Hawks…Josh Smith, Marvin Williams and Josh Childress (no longer with the team) all developed as draft picks of the Hawks. Sure they missed with Acie Law and Sheldon Williams but they’ve done way better this decade than in the 90’s…Don’t know if they developed because of Woody or despite Woody but at the NBA level, coaches don’t really do as much development of high draft picks, the draft picks should really be responsible for their own progression and development. They are the ones being paid millions of dollars…Just my opinion…If you look at all of the best players, every off-season they add something to their game, i.e., Jordan and Kobe…
Numberonehawksfan
December 11th, 2009
11:53 am
@Fundamentals, Bynum and Horford could be a good argument…I think that Bynum’s size gives him a slight edge (very slight) over Horford and what Horford lacks in size, he more than makes up in intensity and leadership…
Daniel
December 11th, 2009
11:57 am
Fundamentals- I certainly think Collins has looked like garbage so far this season. But, He and Hunter play entirely different roles. Collins is a big 5 who is there to clog the lane and give some hard fouls. Hunter is smaller than Randolph Morris. He is really an NBA 3 with limited skills so he is in the front court to rebound against smaller power forwards.
Astro Joe
December 11th, 2009
11:58 am
OB, if memory serves me correctly, Darren Collison had not received a lot of PT prior to CP3’s injury. He struggled initially and then he started to perform. If Bibby goes down, I have no idea how Woody would handle it (personally, I would move Joe to PG and start Mo… keeping Jamal on the bench and keeping that open-3-point threat in the starting line-up). But hopefully, Teague would step-up to the plate like a pro. If I were the coach, I would probably give Teague 10 minutes in his first 20 games and then 12 in his next 20, 15 in the 3rd 20 and then depending on how things were going, adjust his PT for the final run. But personally, I doubt that I would get him up to 20 minutes on this team this year.
And player development is not nearly as important to me as team development. And yes, there is a difference. Team development is about how well a team defends, can they win in a grind-out style as well as in a shoot-out, how high/low they get off of a good/bad game, can they close out a tight game (on both sides of the court), etc. How many former Woody players have gone on to have stellar careers under different coaches? Did y’all know that Diaw only averaged double-digit points once while with Phoenix? Dude was making $10M/year while averaging around 11 points during his tenure as a Phoenix Sun. I haven’t checked on Acie since he went to the legendary Larry Brown, how is that working out? Is Salim in the league? Has Solo moved ahead of Tyler Hansbrough or is he again the 5th big man (but on a lottery-bound team)? Is Royal Ivey a rotational player in the league? Meanwhile, we’re on our way to a 50+ win season. Y’all can moan about individual player development and wonder if Solo would have been the next Marcus Camby or if Acie would become Baron Davis, I’m saving for 2nd round playoff tickets.
wordsmithtom
December 11th, 2009
12:03 pm
Have no beef with playing Hunter, but I’d rather have him spell at the 3 and let Marvin learn to bang ( He certainly has the Butt) or give RandMo some minutes at 4. I think that’s his ultimate position, and he has some midrange game. Not a bad sub for this game.
The suggestion of trying Hunter and if that doesn’t work, Marvin does make me wonder if Smith’s hand is hurt more than we realize.
Finally, I reitterate. I’m old school. Used to be, players didn’t come out of college until they were NBA ready. It was not Coach’s job to develop them. They decided to become pro, so they proved themselves as pro’s. Coach ain’t got no sugar tit…just a boot or a slap on the back for occasional encouragement.
I don’t see any problem with his treatment of Teague. Actually, he’s getting quality minutes considering the wealth of talent ahead of him. He’ll get his chances.
Fundamentals
December 11th, 2009
12:07 pm
Numberonehawksfan I like your take and will agree. You can’t make Horford grow, but would you make the trade? LA does have alot of pressure, but I don’t think Will is the same on and off the court that Horford is. To me we’ve got the better kid. On the court I think they’re equal, but agree on your points.
Daniel – I don’t care about positions. I want active positive pieces we can use in a game. Collins has some work to do to win me over. Who do you want on the bench right now: Collins or Hunter?
Randmo can be a solid 3rd option in my opinion. Possibly 2nd option unless ZaZa shows some of the flashes of brilliance from past years. We need energy, rebounding and defense. Hunter, Randmo and ZaZa can bring it. Collins brings a lumbering rusty body. He can’t bring the speed on D to even clog the middle effectively based on what we’ve seen in the ATL. Elsewhere yes, here no.
Rufus1
December 11th, 2009
12:07 pm
Daniel
The point that I was making is that in the 6 years that Woodson has been coach, some of the players have surpassed our player(Devin, Roy, Rondo and Iguodola)and some are equal in a shorter amount of time(Brooks and Stuckey). Josh Childress and Josh Smith was drafted in the same year as Harris, Iguodola and Deng. Deng is comming off a major injury, but career average is 17pts and 8rbs. Horford is the 2nd best player in his draft and I love Josh now. I am asking you to look at there develop and the time it took the to get there.
ROY AND HARRIS ARE MORE ACCOMPLISHED.
DANIEL THIS IS THE 1ST YEAR PORTLAND HAD A HIGH PRICED FREE AGENT, THEY WON 54 GAMES WITH THERE DRAFT PICKS…….
KevinA
December 11th, 2009
12:11 pm
Rufus1,
In a recent post I mentioned that Woody was not the smartest brick in the pile but no way the dumbest. Are there better coaches in the league? I would say yes. At the same time did Flip and Crawford play better in our system than they played in other systems?
Has Al and Josh improved every year? Will they continue to improve over the next two? I think yes.
I just don’t have the cut and dried attitude about Woody like some do – either good or bad.
Woody developing players is far down on my list. ISO, ball movement and better balanced scoreing is more of a priority to me. Like benching JJ/Jamal every time they take a quick jumper after an ISO. On my list of gripes we are doing better at all of them. So I give Woody some credit. Could he do better in my opinion? of course. At the moment a top 5 team in the League deserves some credit.
I like Woody better than Gundy, they have a better team and record. I like Adelman better than Woody and they have a worse record.
What can I say, we live in a mixed bag world and the Hawks are no different.