Talking about minutes
Greetings-
Hope you are doing well. It looks like Mike Bibby will play, at least from what Jeff Teague said. For what it’s worth, Bibby looked fine walking around the practice court and locker room. (For the time media were allowed into practice, he was sitting on a trainer’s table)
Mike Woodson said he’d like to know by Wednesday if Bibby can go.
To address some of the debate you all are having about Teague and his minutes, I’ll share something with you that Woodson said last week about playing time that I think might shed some light into his thinking. I’d asked him about Randolph Morris playing well at the end of one of the games – at home against New Orleans – and here is what Woodson said.
“He was excellent. He had a little pop to him and came in and played four great minutes, I thought. Guys have got to be like that. I can’t promise minutes. I’ve gotten away from that the last two years. I tell guys, ‘I’m not promising you anything. You’ve got to earn your minutes, you’ve got to make the most of them or I’ve got to go somewhere else and find it.’”
I think in a lot of ways, particularly considering that the team has a lot more to play for (and lose), this makes sense. It’s presumably easier to hand out minutes to players on a team playing .400 basketball than it is to one that is in an early fight for the division. However, the tricky part, obviously, particularly as it relates to Teague, is that it’s almost a given he’s going to make mistakes given his experience level, but the only way he’ll get experience, of course, is by playing.
That said, Woodson has said repeatedly how much he likes Teague as a player and wants to find minutes for him. For those of you who want to see him get regular minutes, would you be willing to do that if it meant putting more games at risk? I hope we can at least agree that Woodson’s rationale for playing Teague the way he plays him is that he’s trying to win each game.
That said, let’s say Teague got a steady 10 minutes, but instead of 11-3, the Hawks were 9-5, or instead of going 52-30 this season, they go 47-35. (Purely hypothetical) Would you make that trade? (Of course, you’re banking on the team and Teague being better for it, this year and in years to come.) Or maybe you can say what’s your cutoff for wins at the expense of minutes.
On a much different note, I’m working on a story for Thursday about fan attendance. If any of you have thoughts about how the Hawks are drawing – they’re actually 5 percent ahead of last year, but crowds still seem sparse, given the team’s upward trend – and would be willing to be quoted in a story, e-mail me at ksugiura@ajc.com.
I almost forgot – a fan e-mailed me and asked about the possibility of a “Red-out” at the Hawks-Magic game, when the Hawks will debut their red alternate road jerseys. I told him I’d share his e-mail in the blog. Here’s an excerpt:
While watching Al Horford on TNT last night, I saw the Hawks “new” red jersey that the team plans to reveal on Thanksgiving night in our nationally televised game against Orlando.
“Wouldn’t it be great if we could have ALL of the fans wear “RED” to the game on that night. It would be an amazing display from our fans and send a “RED WAVE” across the country.
What are your thoughts? Let’s get the WORD OUT to our fan base!!!”
As far as white-out/black-out/your color here-out goes, I think red would be pretty cool. It would fall on the Hawks to publicize it, but just passing along the e-mail.
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248 comments Add your comment
Daniel
November 24th, 2009
11:17 am
Ken-
I like your blog, it addresses the topic at hand well. But, I presented that exact argument in the blog about a week ago. Can your man get a little props?
I say you don’t give Teague any set minutes right now, we are still working out how to mix in Crawford, with Bibby and Joe. Let Teague play in situations where he can be most helpful, but I would say that as the season moves along, i.e. 25-30 games in I think that Woodson would do well to have Teague play with a more defined role.
Daniel
November 24th, 2009
11:19 am
wow- I was first, but didn’t say first, I am so proud of myself… oh, wait a minute does that count as saying first? Man, this first thing is tough…
Mychelfromatl
November 24th, 2009
11:19 am
Ken,
You shouldn’t try to explain, it will fall on def ears to the Woodson haters anyway. Some of these idiots just HAVE to find something to complain about. I’m starting to believe these dudes have some type of secret backroom plot they’re trying to conduct SMH.
Ken Sugiura
November 24th, 2009
11:23 am
My bad, Daniel – your wisdom must have seeped into my subconscious. thanks for pointing it out.
I hereby relinquish rights to the blog topic to Daniel.
How’s that?
Daniel
November 24th, 2009
11:24 am
As far as attendance, I would always like to see more people at the games, but I honestly don’t mind not having to deal with huge crowds on those Mon. games. The Hawks are currently right in the middle of the pack in terms of attendance figures. Right there with teams like San Antonio, Miami, Orlando, Detroit. No one seems to give those cities a hard time about attendance. I do think that the figures will go up particularly with the home schedule during the holiday season.
Daniel
November 24th, 2009
11:26 am
That is ok, Ken. But, I was hoping to be granted a title as well. Something like Grand Poo-Bah. I also want to apologize for my blogs being so seepy.
(Ken, I hope you know I was just kidding with you.)
Eman
November 24th, 2009
11:26 am
Ken,
The economy has played a big role on this year attendance; People just are not going to play to see a basketball game when they have to pay bills or buy food. Also, Atlanta fans are some of the most fair weather fans around!! They are band wagons jumpers!! This is from an Atlanta native and hawks, falcons, and brave fan!!!
Ken Sugiura
November 24th, 2009
11:29 am
i know you were kidding, G.P.
i tend to agree with you, Eman.
Doug
November 24th, 2009
11:34 am
Would Teague make more mistakes at present than Bibby?? Yes…he would also create much more on both ends and give the Hawks an added burst of speed-quickness. I have a hard time believing that he would cost the Hawks any games. Bibby is, at present time not even a league average point guard and is incapable of guarding the better points…and he is a very streaky shooter.
Big Ray
November 24th, 2009
11:37 am
It’s never that cut and dry. Losses should not be directly related to a rookie’s minutes. If that is even a question, I would suggest that there are much larger problems involved.
On the flip side, the Hawks have a shooting guard, two point guards, and one combo guard. Teague is one of the point guards. They chose to roll with such a setup, forgoing a contract for another guard, so they must believe that either Teague is ready to contribute meaningful minutes, or Crawford is ready for some heavy lifting. That, and they apparently aren’t too concerned with injuries (or have a backup plan to sign a decent vet if certain injuries occur).
A steady diet of minutes for Teague may be the difference between desperation/short rotation, and well….NOT. If Bibby is hurt, then either Teague starts and plays some decent minutes, or Jamal starts, and you lose both his contribution off the bench, and someone to spell JJ for decent amounts of rest. It’s all a chain reaction, and it goes much further than that. (Jamal starts, the only thing close to a guard off the bench besides Teague is Evans, and then you lose your backup SF, and so on).
Let this happen come playoff time and watch the butt holes tighten up. But a short rotation is nothing new around here, and all the alibis are set.
Whatever. It will all be chalked up to “well, we won”….until the winning stops.
The Hawksta
November 24th, 2009
11:38 am
Attendance always falls back on game start times. It’s been stated several times by myself and fellow bloggers that 7:00 start times are tough for those of us who live and work outside the perimeter. Hence the late arrivals by most fans. I’ve noticed games that start on Friday’s at 7:30pm usually do better.
The Hawksta
November 24th, 2009
11:39 am
Sorry Ken, guess I should have emailed that(lol)!?
Mr. Teacher Man
November 24th, 2009
11:45 am
13th!!!! But, who really cares. I’ll be at the game on Thursday and I’ll be sure to have on RED (just hope that I’m not the only one)!!!
Mychelfromatl
November 24th, 2009
11:49 am
Oh Snap!!!!!! I missed the part about the Redout!!!!!!
Ken,
Have you talked to the Hawks or maybe to people @ AJC about getting the word out in the newspaper???!!! That would be great for everyone to come in red.
REEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDOUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!
I’ll have my red sweater on Thursday fa’sho!!
Grandad
November 24th, 2009
12:02 pm
Mychelfromatl:
Once again, why does one have to be labeled a hater just for being objective. If myself and others are labeled “haters” for having an opinion, then Woodson “lovers”, certainly cannot withstand any test of objectivity in his regard.
As for J.Teague; Ken: Your premis limited the outcome to only one variable. What if (over the course of the season) J.Teague recieved 16 min. per game [actually this is my perspective] ? During that time frame we lost 2 – 4 games early on due to inexperience and rookie mistakes. But say Mr. Woodson actually coached him up, so to speak, and our record may or may not reflect more wins by the end of the season, but, we are demonstratively better in the play-offs…now would you make that trade ? [longest sentence i've ever constructed / not even sure it's grammatically correct]
AthensSG
November 24th, 2009
12:04 pm
Doug, Bibby is better than average, especially on the road. We’re getting about the same production as last year, but keeping his minutes to about 30. That bodes well for the late season and playoffs. I think it was no coincidence – losing Bibby Sat nite and losing to an inferior team.
The Hawksta
November 24th, 2009
12:05 pm
In the infamous words of A.I. “Practice? We talking about practice! Practice!” Last I checked OJT plays a large part in becoming a professional. If you have a plan as I have stated in previous blogs you play these guys as much as you can now. That includes set minutes that can be adjusted depending on game time situations. A far better result than communicating you earn your minutes and not really have an opportunity to do so. Once a player earns his minutes then what’s the plan? It seems MW’s only strategy is to be reactionary. How about dictating the flow of the game? I believe the only plan MW has is playing to win the game. Well…can’t argue with that if your a box seat ticket holder entertaining a client needing some positive energy to make the deal. However, if you critique the coach and grade him on all aspects of his job. His propensity to develope his bench is base in large part on what Management gives him. Said player’s earning their minutes. And game time situations. All of which means he’s a “Not my fault” type of dude!
Go Hawks!
EW
November 24th, 2009
12:06 pm
If you’re arguing for Teague to get more minutes then you would have to assume we are a better team with him on the floor than we are with Bibby. I can’t buy that. I like Teague to spell the starters and provide a change of pace on the floor.
That said, you can’t put him in only when the game is decided to get his reps and experience. He has to be put on the floor in different situations and different times to learn. I would hate to see us handicap his growth by not playing him ENOUGH, but at the same time you play to win the game. I have a feeling Teague has his head on straight and will do his part to earn time on the floor and stay motivated.
The Hawksta
November 24th, 2009
12:07 pm
Sounds good to me “Grandad”. Ask Mr Teacher(lol)!
Bi Ump
November 24th, 2009
12:11 pm
Samuel, Truth Serum, Gee Mack, Daniel
It don’t matter to some of these Wannabe Terrence Moore if the Hawks went all the way to the finals or won it. They would still be complainig
about something. It’s their nature. It’s hard to break old habits.
Big Ray
November 24th, 2009
12:11 pm
I’ll co-sign Daniel’s initial post ….
teedub
November 24th, 2009
12:12 pm
I’m not a big fan of gimmicks to get fans to show up. Sure the red would be cool, but everyone in every city for every sport is doing a fill-in-the-blank-”out”. How about we just start with a packed house for something other than a game 6/7??
Todd
Lacsho
November 24th, 2009
12:12 pm
Wow, four posts in 7 minutes, and you still don’t get it. You’ve been on the blog for a year or two and you still don’t get it, so therefore one must move on. It’s ok to agree to disagree.
Dude from the Atl, that’s so elementary calling adults names on blogs. Two thumbs up for you Mr. Internet killer.
This blog will remain split. There are those who really think Woodson is a great coach, and there are others who think he’s a horrible coach. It’s like that, and that’s the way it is (RunDmc)!!!!
Big Ray
November 24th, 2009
12:13 pm
Agree with Grandad’s post on Teague…
Mychelfromatl
November 24th, 2009
12:16 pm
Grandad,
Take off your rose filled sunglasses. Your perpective(Although it would be nice), I seriously doubt will happen that easily.
What if those 2-4 games that we would lose turns out to be the deciding factor between having the 1rst or 2nd seed in the playoffs(and we all know how good the Hawks play at home)??
Big Ray
November 24th, 2009
12:17 pm
Lacsho ,
I think the problem is extremism. There’s very little of the true yin-and-yang. Woody can’t be an absolutely horrible coach, or this team would never win anything. Yet some of the same problems that existed 5 years ago still exist today. I won’t say more than that, I’m tired of arguing with people who actually want to fight about it. Heh…well, virtual fight, anyway…
Lacsho
November 24th, 2009
12:17 pm
Grandad, nice post!!!
The Hawksta
November 24th, 2009
12:20 pm
Don’t remember this much mudslinging between bloggers last year. Must be the money! I mean really… we have more Bigs than the Hawks(lol)!
Daniel
November 24th, 2009
12:20 pm
Thanks Big Ray… but I think I will be the Grand Poo-Bah from now on.
Gotta get outta here. will check in tomorrow then off for a few days.
Seriously, I wish everyone a happy Thanksgiving. (even Rod, Truth, Ken…et. al) (just messing with you guys) Everyone be good to each other.
Big Ray
November 24th, 2009
12:21 pm
Mychel ,
How are you going to quantify which exact wins or losses will determine a seeding? Again, I find the idea of a team losing any number of games solely because of a coach giving a rookie a few extra minutes to be utterly preposterous.
Teams lose for many more reasons than that. If that’s why you’re losing games, then something is wrong with part of, or perhaps the REST of your starting lineup and/or rotation.
What if a starter (Bibby) is out, and it FORCES a rookie to get more playing time. Shall we then blame the rookie? Or shall we blame the starter for being out? See what I mean…
Big Ray
November 24th, 2009
12:22 pm
Peace be to you, Daniel . Enjoy and be safe…everybody…
Mychelfromatl
November 24th, 2009
12:22 pm
Lacsho,
What the hell??? Me saying “Woodson Haters”, is considered to be a blog killer SMDH. Homie I’ve seen far worst names thrown around on this blog homie. And if me saying “Woodson Haters” make you mad then **Kanye West at VMA’s Shrug**
Lacsho
November 24th, 2009
12:27 pm
You know me Ray, I tend to see things just black and white. However, you’re right. He’s not a horrible coach, but he’s a very suspect coach. How do you still make the same mistakes year after year?
Big Ray
November 24th, 2009
12:31 pm
Lacsho,
That would be the question, and must also factor into the lack of an extension at this juncture….
Mychel,
Kanye…you had to bring his silly ass up? LOL..
Mychelfromatl
November 24th, 2009
12:39 pm
Ray,
Simply put, I’m saying suppose Woodson decides to give Teague this mandatory 15-20 mins per game that some on the blog is demanding.
Now suppose some of Teague rookie mistakes in those minutes “Clearly” causes us to lose games however many games this year.
Okay now after the season is over, and it was possible that the Hawks could have had a higher seeding if Bibby or Jamal would have played those minutes Teague was being force-feed,
You don’t think these SAME people that complain about EVERYTHING, you don’t think they not gon all-of-sudden accuse Woody for playing Teague too much, or in the wrong situation??????? I dare anyone to tell me different.
I mean I like the kid and all(Dudes better that AC without a doubt,and have played more already than AC played in his whole time here), but there has just been some situtions where me personally…I haven’t even felt comfortable with him in the game. But heck what do I know, I’m just a blogger that blogs during his downtime at work lol.
Mychelfromatl
November 24th, 2009
12:45 pm
Actually, I’m not even that opposed to Teague playing more. It’s just me responding in frustration due to all the constant whining and complaining. Good Lord!!! I can only imagine the level of b**ching that would be going on if the Hawks was 3-11.
Najeh Davenpoop
November 24th, 2009
12:59 pm
I don’t think giving Teague more minutes necessarily jeopardizes your chances of winning. Although Teague is a long way from being a consistent NBA point guard, he does provide that speed which changes up the tempo of your offense — in other words it’s not like he’s a complete liability. Giving him 15 minutes a game, especially against bad teams or in games like Saturday where the regulars went through extended stretches where they couldn’t buy a basket, probably isn’t going to hurt you. I have no problem sitting him in a close game like the Houston game, but he has only seen limited floor time in other games that were not so close.
That said, y’all seem to be severely underrating the positive impact Bibby has when he’s on the floor. He may not be quick anymore but he knows exactly how to do the little things, like hitting Joe Johnson with a pass in rhythm, spacing himself perfectly to allow Joe a driving lane and an easy kick-out pass, knocking down clutch shots and even setting screens. Do not underestimate his importance. Playing the point well involves a lot more than just quickness.
Robert
November 24th, 2009
1:03 pm
Love to see Teague play but I can’t argue what (coach of the year 2010) Woodson have done 11-3 on the top of the eastern conference got to give him props Teague will be better as long as he put in the work and the Hawks will be a better team for that.
Ramon
November 24th, 2009
1:05 pm
I think against sub .500 teams Teague can get a lot more playing time in the first half. Usually the Hawks are always in striking distance in the second half that it makes up for the first half mistakes. I would be for seeing Teague get 10 min in the first half. And depending on his play, deciding how much through the second half he plays. If Teague is in, and the +/- goes to -8 or -10 take him out right there. You need to know what you have in Teague this season, because after next year Bibby is done! So you need to know what to do with this year’s draft pick.
Najeh Davenpoop
November 24th, 2009
1:06 pm
Another thing is, we’ve been over this on these blogs before… good teams routinely continue to win games while giving their young players in-game experience. This is how the Celtics have developed Rajon Rondo, Kendrick Perkins, and Glen Davis into solid NBA players despite being a title contender. This is why the veteran-laden Spurs find a way to give DeJuan Blair consistent minutes. The surging Mavs have been starting rookie Rodrigue Beaubois in the midst of their injuries and continued winning instead of bringing Jason Terry into the starting lineup. Again, I’m not saying it has to be done every game, but the Hawks can very easily find ways to give Teague enough minutes to be a consistent contributor.
ILL-logical
November 24th, 2009
1:13 pm
From a fan/outside’s perspective, if the focus is on the near term then minutes may matter more in the case of Teague because he would probably cost the team some victories with rookie mistakes. However, if you look at the longer term and raise the bar from second round playoff appearances, then perhaps you operate differently.
From Woodson’s perspective: if he doesn’t win now, he is redundant. So as we debate-and this shows the level of interest in the Hawks-maybe a bit of perspective is in order.
NEW CARS
November 24th, 2009
1:14 pm
That whole don’t play the rookie because we’re trying to win games just doesn’t cut it with me. Part of Woodson’s duty is to develop his younger players and create continuity on the squad. As a coach, you have to take all of your parts and make them work for the betterment of the team. The goal is to win games and grow your younger players. If you can’t trust a young guy in November then how is he going to get on the floor in March and April.
I rank this coaching argument up there with Coach Mark Richt benching freshman running backs who miss a block that led to a stupid interception. You can play the kid without putting him in a position to fail. If we don’t, then Johnson, Bibby, and Horford are going to be worn out by playoff time, sort of like last year.
mike
November 24th, 2009
1:15 pm
the attendance number are not bad.. its the actual people that show up vs tickets sold.. also the late 2nd qtr arriving crowd is just horrible.. i get mad at myself if i miss the player intros.. IF YOU ARE NOT GONNA GO AND YOU HAVE TICKETS, GIVE THEM AWAY!!
Eric
November 24th, 2009
1:18 pm
This is the biggest knock I have with Mike Woodson, he’s seems to be falling back to playing his star players (Joe Johnson and Josh Smith) too many minutes. The one game against Denver Woodson played Teague and Evans good minutes, the Hawks blew-out one of the elite teams in the league. Since then he’s fallen back to the same ol Woody who shortens his bench and doesn’t trust his players. In his mind he only has a bench that consists of ZaZa and Crawford, this could hurt them in the long run. I look at the way Denver plays Tye Lawson and it kills me because Teague is as good or better than Lawson, but Woody just won’t let it happen.
The Hawksta
November 24th, 2009
1:20 pm
Woodson is coaching for his next contract. The more he wins now, the better chance he has of being offered a new deal. What’s the use in developing a player he might not coach if it’s his belief said player will cost him wins in the short term. Give him a new contract and you might get a different strategy.
Mychelfromatl
November 24th, 2009
1:24 pm
Najeh,
Cosign 100%. Especially about Bibby.
Ken Sugiura
November 24th, 2009
1:24 pm
good points all around. you raise an interesting question, grandad. i was thinking something similar.
and to those who say that teague’s minutes alone cannot be the sole factor in winning or losing, i’d agree. there’s always more than goes into it. i realize it’s more gray. but ultimately, every decision a coach makes is “will this help us win?” and that includes “how long can teague play?” obviously, he helps the team in different ways, otherwise he wouldn’t be out there at all. but obviously woodson doesn’t think he helps as much as bibby, otherwise he’d be starting. so i think it is fair to say that at some point, playing teague too much would be detrimental to the team’s immediate success.
and i do think part of woodson’s decision making is longer term, because he keeps saying he has to get teague minutes. (i hope this makes sense) if woodson believed that playing him would directly lead to a win in each specific game, then of course he would play him more, for the same reason he gives Josh Smith or Joe Johnson a lot of minutes. but woodson saying he wants to give him more time indicates that he realizes the long-term value of playing him.
GeeMack
November 24th, 2009
1:27 pm
Daniel gd post.
As long as Jamal is getting 30 to 35 min between the 1 & 2 guard position then I am ok with JT getting 10 min per game. JJ min. have been greatly reduced. Like I’ve said before this aint the Boston Celtic that has a group of olders players that needs resting. These guys are young let them play 38 to 40 minutes per night. If Kobe can do it year after year playing in the Olympic and going to the finals and stil play more minutes than our guys, and be more effective. Let these guys play they need the experience.
Grandad
November 24th, 2009
1:30 pm
Mychelfromatl: I agree, you did exactly as I did, when I changed the variable, You altered the outcome. We are saying the same thing – there can be more than one endgame to the original premis. Also, if I may, I am pulling for Mr. Woodson to succeed. Absolutely no venom. After the Boston game I was quick to come on board and offer congratulations to Mr. Woodson. I gave certain accounts of growth as a coach. But as K.S., and Big Ray have stated eloquently Mr. Woodson has returned to his old habits. I would say he has regressed. Some say we have only a 13 game sample, when really, we have a several yr. sample of his work. However, as always, his success = Hawks success. Last item; “rose colored glasses” nah, I quit wearing those when I was a young man and thought everyone was honest, loyal, truthful and nice.
Eric
November 24th, 2009
1:30 pm
The point is not to wear out your star players and starters, the season is long. You are going to need Joe and Josh to be fresh for a playoff run. Look around the league this rookie class of point guards are taking the N.B.A. by storm, Jennings with the Bucks Tye Lawson with the Nuggets. I think Teague is just as good, but he can’t prove it unless Woody gives him a chance!!!
GeeMack
November 24th, 2009
1:34 pm
Najeh Davenpoop & Ramon
Gr8 points.
I really think it would be good if we played him 10 minutes in the fist half. 5 in the 1st 5 in the 2nd quarter. This dosent take away from JJ, JC, & Bibby
Lacsho
November 24th, 2009
1:35 pm
New Cars, that was a great post.
Lacsho
November 24th, 2009
1:43 pm
Whatz good Najeh, nice post. I miss the fantasy days.
26 years of ATL Hawks
November 24th, 2009
1:46 pm
IF JTO knew in advance he was going to get 5-6 minutes of solid play per half he could go in a bit more relaxed. To me he’s trying too hard to impress Woody to get minutes. If he was allowed to just run the offense and play solid D he’d develop into an assett. Right now he’s fighting for every second and forcing stats.
I’m almost hopeful that Bibby will take the night off Thursday to fully recover. Let JTO come in and run things initially. Bring Crawford in as the spark. Allow him the confidence to know that he’s got the reigns and let the vets support him. If he’s dishing to folks who are doing their job and running the offense effectively he’ll succeed. We’ve got enough veteran leadership around him to make it happen. Just instill the confidence. If we don’t, we’ll have another good kid leaving the NBA after 3 years.
Big Ray
November 24th, 2009
1:48 pm
Mychel,
There is going to be some complaining regardless. And in case you haven’t heard, complaining ABOUT the complaining…is still complaining …LOL..
Seriously, do you really believe that Woody will give Teague that many minutes if it’s clear that we’re losing because of him? Yeah, right. The Woody I know will play Joe and whoever else for a full 48 minutes if he believes that this is what it will take to win the game. Not a complaint, just an observation.
I will say this, however. I do NOT want to see a good, healthy playoff performance sacrificed for a number of regular season wins. For example, wearing guys out to win 55+ games does you no good if you have to LIMP through another first round series (like we did last year), only to get flattened in the second round (like we did last year).
Take that for what you will…
26 years of ATL Hawks
November 24th, 2009
1:49 pm
Weren’t we limping in with 5 of our 8 rotation players dragging from injuries last year?
Big Ray
November 24th, 2009
1:51 pm
Yeah, have to co-sign Najeh as well.
What makes me laugh is when guys talk about Teague missing shots or missing defensive assignments, etc. You can chalk that up to experience. However, last I looked, there were guys who play 30+ minutes with a hell of a lot more experience who are also missing shots…and totally blowing some defensive assignments.
Now just what are you going to chalk that up to, exactly?
cp
November 24th, 2009
1:56 pm
Its to the point on this blog that if you say anything negative about Woodson the Woodson lovers throw fits. As ray said, Woodson is still making the same mistakes he was as a rookie coach. The same questions people had about his coaching style when he first got here are still being asked today. I just don’t see how playing Teague a few more minutes a game is going to cost us wins. If that’s the case then what are the other guys on the court doing? like Najeh pointed out, if teams that are constantly in the championship hunt can find time to give their youngsters consistent minutes then how come this team cant. Every year its a player Woodson says he has to find minutes for and every year he seems to not be able to do it.
Big Ray
November 24th, 2009
1:57 pm
Here’s a preemptive strike for the Orlando game:
If we lose, we’re still 11-4. Heh!
My only thing will really be how we compete. I don’t care if it’s psychological, physical, or what. We better not get blown out like we did last year during the regular season, or this year during the preseason. We are too good for that. We really are. Even with a sample size as small as 14 games. We showed that by beating Boston IN Boston. We hadn’t beaten them since game six of the 07-08 first round playoff series.
Ramon
November 24th, 2009
1:58 pm
Big Ray, for veterans they call that not being in ‘mid season form yet’. Lol. Or they call it volume shooting. Or keep shooting until your shot falls.
cp
November 24th, 2009
2:02 pm
Exactly ray as far as winning all those games but being tired for the playoffs. But I know someone will come on here and post minutes of other players and say how those guys are not tired and etc.
Eric
November 24th, 2009
2:05 pm
Teague dropped 12 pts, 3 assists, 2 steals and went 5-7 from the field with a facial dunk on Lamar Odom vs the Lakers in 17 minutes, and the next game Woody congratulates him by giving him 5 minutes against the Kings. Yes the team is winning, but this is what got Woody in trouble in the past. You got to get Joe and Josh some rest!!!
KevinA
November 24th, 2009
2:07 pm
JT will get his minutes against weaker teams that like to run. His game is best during an up tempo free for all. This is also the best type of game for Josh. In the future we will all ooooohhh and aaawwweeee when JT is playing in the right situation.
The season is long and we have been playing against tough teams. The second 15 games of the schedule fits JT much more than the first 15. I have no crystal ball but I would guess JT will be playing more.
Ramon
November 24th, 2009
2:08 pm
Seriously though, Woodson is doing good in win/loss column. But when was the last time any of you guys saw Woody try to teach a guy during the game? When was the last time you saw a rookie come out of the game, and Woody take 2-3 minutes and tell them a couple things? Some reason it feels like every time I see a rookie or 2nd year player come out the game, Woody is giving his look, and the player goes straight to the end of the bench. Do you guys remember how Pop used to coach Parker on the sidelines DURING the games? And truthfully Teague is a better player now than what Parker was when he came in the league! Do you guys remember seeing Byron Scott coach up Chris Paul, Sloan coach up Deron Williams, or Paul Silas whisper some things to Lebron? When do you recall seeing that with Woody? That’s what he is lacking that hurts the most. Its like he is constantly glaring at young players as if he is thinking ‘You little knucklehead, you’re going to get me fired’.
Eric
November 24th, 2009
2:11 pm
Jeff Teague is no Acie Law, If Woody plays him he’ll secure his job!!!
Ramone
November 24th, 2009
2:15 pm
I think Woody is doing the right thing in making ALL of his players EARN their minutes. When you start doling out the minutes just to make sure that the guys are getting enough, then you do run the risk of adversely affecting the team. Teague will get his minutes as Woody sees fit, but I would not expect to see him playing very long in really close games (e.g. Hornets, Rockets, etc…). We need to understand that the Hawks have a chance to really make some noise this post season and Woody is trying to best position our team for the playoffs (anyone other than me thinking #1 seed in the East?). He has held true to his goal of reducing the minutes for the starters (Joe in particular) thus far and we can only hope that he can continue to reduce minutes as the season progresses.
BTW – I like the idea of a “Red Out”
Lacsho
November 24th, 2009
2:22 pm
Ray, I think you are on fire today!!!!
concerned voice
November 24th, 2009
2:26 pm
hey mama’s boy, by time you get to the pro’s you should need some one to hold your hand. What the hell are we paying you for? Git yo sorry ase to the bench
concerned voice
November 24th, 2009
2:27 pm
some one help my little bitcch play.
Willie Coyote
November 24th, 2009
2:31 pm
Attendance would be greatly helped if there was some kind of public rail transit into Atlanta from the rest of the metro area extended. In a lot of these other areas (Chicago, NY, etc) people can hop on a train (bypassing traffic) and get to their respective sports venues even if they live 50-75 miles away.
Truth-Serum
November 24th, 2009
2:32 pm
Bi Ump
November 24th, 2009
12:11 pm
Samuel, Truth Serum, Gee Mack, Daniel
It don’t matter to some of these Wannabe Terrence Moore if the Hawks went all the way to the finals or won it. They would still be complaining
about something. It’s their nature. It’s hard to break old habits.
Thanks for the shout Big Ump, I must agree, it would be nice to enjoy the season than spend the time arguing about how bad a coach a person is who has two consecutive playoff runs, named number 9 on last year’s voting for coach of the year, and currently has a team with the best record in the NBA. Talk about an idiotic conversation. I’ve decided it’s pretty much a waste to have dialogue exchange on the subject. I’m not going to entertain it as a serious, respectable conversation.
I must agree with Woodson, lets compete for the minutes. Lets earn the stripes. I’m not one who believes that every mothers son should receive a ribbon for participation. Last I checked this is the NBA and We are trying to Win a championship.
Eric
November 24th, 2009
2:34 pm
Ty Lawson averages 21 mpg for Denver opposed to Jeff Teague average of 9 mpg, and I don’t think he’s hurting Denver. Lawson is playing behind a better point guard also (Chauncey Billups), you can’t tell me that Woody can’t give JT more minutes.
mike
November 24th, 2009
2:35 pm
if you get tickets to hawks.. show up on time.. also, if you dont plan on attending.. give your tickets away! Sick of the empty seats and people that show up in 2nd qtr
welikebaseball2
November 24th, 2009
2:38 pm
How refreshing, a ATL team blog that actually sticks to the sport! LOL. Anywho, good points about Teague’s minutes (or lack of). I submit this: What if upping Teague’s minutes costs a few wins early on but, as he grows from game experience, he becomes the catalyst that turns would-be-losses into wins? Would that not balance it all out…and we’re that much deeper for the playoffs? You’ve got to believe that he would grow as the season progresses (if Woodson actually gave him some crunchtime burn) & become more of a point of strength than liability. Again, this is assuming that Woodson actually allows him to develop. I’m just not convinced that rookie development is anything less than Woodson’s biggest failure as a coach.
Crashing the Glass
November 24th, 2009
2:44 pm
Woodson doesn’t hate Teague, he’s just been saving him-
http://crashingtheglass.com/
Grandad
November 24th, 2009
2:47 pm
sybil – does Mr. Woodeverymothersonson go home at night and chant: ” I’m # 9…I’m # 9…I’m # 9 !
Truth-Serum
November 24th, 2009
2:48 pm
I cant tell that Teague is better than Acie. They may both be scrubbs. I hope teague is better but what Ive observed of him so far is befitting a pick that is equivalent to the 7th best point guard in the college draft. Hes not the number 1 or number 2 pick at the position. On many teams he would have to sit his first year just to learn the game. He is competing against the best and most experience NBA players for the last 10 years. He may be a poot instead of a fart! Give me a break, earn those stripes. Lets see you break down a defense…post a triple double, run an offense to precision, do something to make the coach take time from a trio of what may be the best back court in the NBA!
JJ is better than Billups and Crawford is too, Bibby is the quarterback so if Lawson was here hed pick splinters too! And for good reason. We have a first class back court and even marvin gets minutes at the 2.
It doesnt hurt my feeling one bit for Teague to ride the pine this year, let him learn from observation and then show something to merit some time. He seems clueless at times…
OK lets blame it one….All together now….Woodson!
Big Ray
November 24th, 2009
2:59 pm
Ken ,
That would be your cue….
Big Ray
November 24th, 2009
3:05 pm
Actually, I haven’t seen Woody give Teague “that look.” Not unless he blew a defensive assignment particularly badly, in which case, anybody is liable to get that look.
I’ve actually seen Woody have Teague sit next to him on the bench when he comes out at times. Never really saw that with Acie Law.
Woody doesn’t hate Teague at all. And yes, experience is the only way to prove yourself. It will come.
KevinA
November 24th, 2009
3:07 pm
Crashing the Glass
The rash of early home games and the initially lenient workload could make for rough going down the stretch this season.
10 out of the first 14 games have been against last years play off teams. 7 games at home and 7 on the road.
KevinA
November 24th, 2009
3:08 pm
I’ve actually seen Woody have Teague sit next to him on the bench when he comes out at times. Never really saw that with Acie Law.
cosign that.
KevinA
November 24th, 2009
3:11 pm
Grandad,
Take that garbage elsewhere.
Hawk Str8Talk
November 24th, 2009
3:15 pm
I’ll answer Ken’s question first. Yes, I would accept fewer wins this season (at the expense of seeding and win/loss record) in exchange for gaining experience at the backup point guard position. I would prefer to have a more playoff ready team (i.e. 4 guards capable of playing meaningful minutes and/or having 3 fresh vets to play in the postseason) than a team who has a higher ceiling, but susceptible to what happened to our team down the stretch last season with no back up plan.
Now, we’ve been debating this on my blog (www.hawkstr8talk.com) for a few days as well. Listen, I think for those who say they are ok with putting Teague on the bench should be saying in tandem with that – we need to have a real backup point guard. The team made a decision to go with 4 guards. So, that said – Teague was going to be the backup point guard. We can’t count on Crawford to be the point guard – he is a shooting guard (as was Flip), so that’s the thing that we’re really trying to determine here. If he’s your backup, play him. Yes, there may be some growing pains, but you guys are acting as if Teague can’t win you a game either. Collison and Thornton just won the game for the Hornets, so you can’t just buy the negative side to win this argument without accepting that Teague very possibly provides production that contributes to wins as well, which SHOULD be the reason we drafted him. So, you should also be saying – we need to sign someone to be the backup. Now, I personally would like to see 5-10 minutes for Teague in the first half of every game and then, if he sucks – he sits. If he contributes well, he plays more as necessary. It would establish a role for him and build his confidence and undersatnding of the NBA game. More than any other position – point guards need minutes to understand how to manage the game. It doesn’t happen for the bench. The words from Woodson regarding ‘earn the minutes’ rings hollow b/c he’s not going to earn more minutes than the top 3 guards on this team. Woodson is going to have to give him opportunities to show his skills set. Only one PG has ever come into the league displaying championship level effort and talent and that’s Magic Johnson. All others needed minutes…
Hawks Fan
November 24th, 2009
3:15 pm
I’m TOTALLY WITH THE RED-OUT!!!!!!!
I can’t wait!!!!
Go Hawks!!!!!
Corey
November 24th, 2009
3:19 pm
Thanks Ken!
You are indeed a man of your word.
I sent a message over to sports talk radio personalities to see if we can really get the word out.
You did your part…. Atlanta, let’s do OUR part!!!!
See you on Thursday in my RED!!!!!!!!!
Let’s Go Hawks!!!!
Grandad
November 24th, 2009
3:20 pm
KevinA:
What garbage? You should know the vulgar one was not me.
Eric
November 24th, 2009
3:20 pm
What everybody is missing is the fact that basketball is a rhythm sport, when Woody plays JT 17 mpg one night and the next game he gets a dnp you can’t get in a rhythm. Woody’s killing JT’s confidence, consist minutes is the key Woody. You got a rookie who can shot,has a first step out of this world, and can get up.
Ricky
November 24th, 2009
3:20 pm
I don’t know if it will help us win the game, but I’m there with the REDOUT. See you in the sea of red on Thursday
Corey
November 24th, 2009
3:21 pm
If you come to the game, HAVE ON YOUR RED!!!!!!!!!!
Let’s GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!
Bill "Native Alantan"
November 24th, 2009
3:23 pm
I think that the REDOUT is a great idea, but can we get everyone to participate?
Even if they don’t, I will surely have on my red.
Ken Strickland
November 24th, 2009
3:23 pm
I know BS when I hear it, and what Woodson said qualifies. He’s still making excuses for not developing and/or playing his players.
Case in point. He said, “I TELL GUYS, I’M NOT PROMISING YOU ANYTHING. YOU’VE GOT TO EARN YOUR MINUTES, YOU’VE GOT TO MAKE THE MOST OF THEM OR I’VE GO TO GO SOMEWHERE ELSE AND FIND IT. His accessment of RMorris’ performance against New Orleans was as follows: “HE WAS EXCELLENT. HE CAME IN AND HAD A LITTLE POP TO HIM AND CAME IN AND PLAYED 4 GREAT MINUTES, I THOUGHT.”
If any of what he said was true, then explain why 4gms later, RMorris hasn’t sniffed as much as another second of PT since his excellent performance? We certainly could have used his inside scoring potential against both Houston and New Orleans down the stretch. Exactly when and how does he expect a player to prove himself if he’s forced to keep his butt anchored to the bench? And if he doesn’t consider what RMorris did as proof of what he can do, then what in the hell is he looking for, and where else did he go to find it?
How many times did we seen SStaudemire, ALaw, BDiaw, SJones and SWilliams have an excellent gm only to have it followed up with the same string of DNP CD next to their names that Morris has suffered, instead of an expanded opportunity? ACTION SPEAKS LOUDER THAN WORDS, AND WOODSON’S ACTIONS PROVE HIS WORDS ARE NOTHING BUT LIES.
KEN-your analogy was well taken, but obviously slanted. It assumes we will lose if Teague is given more consistent mins. Are you telling me you wouldn’t be willing to risk nothing more than the possibility of losing 2-3 regular season gms to develop Teague’s skills and confidence for a serious playoff run? Wouldn’t it be nice to have a backup PG that’s capable of taking over for Bibby just in case he suffers through another shooting drought like he’s done before in the playoffs? DEF, not OFF, has been our biggest problem so far this season, and Teague has definitely demonstrated his overall DEF, especially his on the ball DEF, is far superior to Bibby’s. Add his superior penetrating ability, and the experience he’d gain, what would we actually lose in the long run by playing him a consistent 10-12MPG?
If he’s unable to figure out how he can find an additional 3-5MPG to develop Teague, then he’s demonstrating a definite level of incompetence. If he reduce the mins of Marvin, Bibby, Horford, Crawford, Smoove and JJ by 30 seconds each, he’d have 3 additional MPG to give Teague. If he reduced their mins by 45 seconds each, he’d have 4.5 additional MPG to give him. HOW DIFFICULT IS THAT FOR A COMPETENT HC, OR ONE THAT ACTUALLY GIVES A DAM? I GUESS IT’S EASIER FOR HIM TO MAKE UP EXCUSES. There’s certainly no shortage of fools out there willing to accept them.
Phillip
November 24th, 2009
3:25 pm
RED OUT! RED OUT! RED OUT!
I think Woodson is fighting for his job and that is the reason that he isn’t playing Teague as much as he should.
RED OUT!
RED OUT!
Big Ray
November 24th, 2009
3:25 pm
Truth Serum ,
I think that Teague is undoubtedly better than Acie was. In fact, so does Mike Woodson. He was quoted as saying so when they drafted him, and after they traded Acie to Golden State. If I can find the link, I’ll post it. Basically, what Woody said was “no offense to Law, but THIS kid has the skills to get it done.”
Right from the horse’s mouth.
Your comments are obviously heartfelt, but take a look at what you’re saying. If you think this may be one of the best backcourts in the NBA, then how reasonable is it to expect a rookie to do something that would break him into such a rotation?
“Lets see you break down a defense”
Seen that already. Kid can penetrate almost at will. Remember that game we lost to the LA Lakers? Teague played 16 minutes off the bench. He came in, dunked on Lamar Odom and proceeded to score 12 points on 5 for 7 shooting, dished out 3 assists (which accounts for 6 points at least), and picked up 2 steals. The Lakers ended up having to put a starter or two back out on the floor to keep the game under control. Were it not for Teague, the final score would have read 118-92, not 118-110.
The very next game, Teague got 5 minutes of playing time. I’m just sayin’…
“On many teams he would have to sit his first year just to learn the game.”
I hear you, but is that a fair assessment? Didn’t you just say that Ty Lawson would be sitting the pine as well if he played here? And yet Teague DESTROYED Lawson in college. Put Johnny Flynn here. Does he get more PT than Teague? How about Tyreke Evans? Brandon Jennings? We can’t be sure, all are hypothetical situations. Yeah, we look at Brandon and how much of a bad ass he is out there in Milwaukee, but can we say without hesitation that any of the top picked pgs would be taking serious minutes away from our starting rotation of guards?
At the same time, I agree that Teague has looked a bit clueless at times. But I’ve watched our starters make some of the same mistakes. Ever watched Jamal Crawford on defense? It’s ugly, dude. It’s ugly. LOVE him on offense though!
Mike Woodson
November 24th, 2009
3:31 pm
Teague is going to get his minutes. What more inportant is that when he gets the opportunity, he comes in and take advantage of them.
He’ll be fine.
I want to see all of our fans come out on Thursday in your red and show the league what type of place this is to come and play.
Big Ray
November 24th, 2009
3:32 pm
KevinA ,
That wasn’t the real Grandad posting that. It’s a short explanation, but I’m not in the mood for it right now.
Cain
November 24th, 2009
3:32 pm
Go Hawks!
Go RED!!!
Corey
November 24th, 2009
3:33 pm
Right Cain.
Why go green when you can GO RED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That’s our RED OUT slogan
Big Ray
November 24th, 2009
3:35 pm
Against Orlando, the last thing I’m worried about is Teague’s minutes. I want to win that game. And I want our guys to want it more than we do. Boston has to respect us now because we whopped that ass.
Portland has to respect us because we beat them. TWICE. Already.
But I want Orlando’s respect. Right now, we don’t have it. That makes me hungry and angry. A dangerous combo, and it should be one that the Hawks adopt.
I want that win. If not, it better be the hardest, bloodiest win Orlando gets all year long, making them sick to their stomachs at the idea of having to play us again. Put the women and children to bed. Time to go looking for supper.
Big Ray
November 24th, 2009
3:42 pm
Truth Serum ,
Here’s that link.
http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/hawks/stories/2009/06/26/hawks_jeff_teague.html
Big Ray
November 24th, 2009
3:46 pm
This stuck out to me the most in that article:
The Hawks traded Acie Law IV and Speedy Claxton to get Crawford and watched seven other point guards go off the board before grabbing Teague.
“I’m not knocking Acie Law in any way shape or form,” Woodson said. “But this kid [Teague] is what I’d call a true point guard. I gave Acie some opportunities, and it just didn’t work. That’s no knock on him as a player or me as a coach. Injuries probably hurt Acie the two years he was here, and honestly we just didn’t have the luxury of waiting on him when he first got here. We had to win.
“Jeff Teague has a different situation, and in some ways I think a better situation, in that we have a solid foundation of veterans here that he’ll be able to learn from and lean on. Make no mistake about it, he has the tools, and we need to provide him with the opportunity to become the player we think he can become.”
Teague said he’s not operating on a specific timeline, but he’s not coming just to watch.
“I think it’s a great situation, where I don’t have to come in and carry the weight of the world on my shoulders because we already have some great point guards here,” Teague said. “But that doesn’t mean I’m going to come in and lay down or anything. This is a dream come true to finally be in the NBA, and I’d be a fool to waste a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity like this.
“I’m here to be the best and I’m going to work hard and do whatever it takes to be the best.”
I don’t see a coach who doesn’t like his rookie.
I don’t see a rookie who will be a failure.
But that’s just what I see…