Talking about minutes
Greetings-
Hope you are doing well. It looks like Mike Bibby will play, at least from what Jeff Teague said. For what it’s worth, Bibby looked fine walking around the practice court and locker room. (For the time media were allowed into practice, he was sitting on a trainer’s table)
Mike Woodson said he’d like to know by Wednesday if Bibby can go.
To address some of the debate you all are having about Teague and his minutes, I’ll share something with you that Woodson said last week about playing time that I think might shed some light into his thinking. I’d asked him about Randolph Morris playing well at the end of one of the games – at home against New Orleans – and here is what Woodson said.
“He was excellent. He had a little pop to him and came in and played four great minutes, I thought. Guys have got to be like that. I can’t promise minutes. I’ve gotten away from that the last two years. I tell guys, ‘I’m not promising you anything. You’ve got to earn your minutes, you’ve got to make the most of them or I’ve got to go somewhere else and find it.’”
I think in a lot of ways, particularly considering that the team has a lot more to play for (and lose), this makes sense. It’s presumably easier to hand out minutes to players on a team playing .400 basketball than it is to one that is in an early fight for the division. However, the tricky part, obviously, particularly as it relates to Teague, is that it’s almost a given he’s going to make mistakes given his experience level, but the only way he’ll get experience, of course, is by playing.
That said, Woodson has said repeatedly how much he likes Teague as a player and wants to find minutes for him. For those of you who want to see him get regular minutes, would you be willing to do that if it meant putting more games at risk? I hope we can at least agree that Woodson’s rationale for playing Teague the way he plays him is that he’s trying to win each game.
That said, let’s say Teague got a steady 10 minutes, but instead of 11-3, the Hawks were 9-5, or instead of going 52-30 this season, they go 47-35. (Purely hypothetical) Would you make that trade? (Of course, you’re banking on the team and Teague being better for it, this year and in years to come.) Or maybe you can say what’s your cutoff for wins at the expense of minutes.
On a much different note, I’m working on a story for Thursday about fan attendance. If any of you have thoughts about how the Hawks are drawing – they’re actually 5 percent ahead of last year, but crowds still seem sparse, given the team’s upward trend – and would be willing to be quoted in a story, e-mail me at ksugiura@ajc.com.
I almost forgot – a fan e-mailed me and asked about the possibility of a “Red-out” at the Hawks-Magic game, when the Hawks will debut their red alternate road jerseys. I told him I’d share his e-mail in the blog. Here’s an excerpt:
While watching Al Horford on TNT last night, I saw the Hawks “new” red jersey that the team plans to reveal on Thanksgiving night in our nationally televised game against Orlando.
“Wouldn’t it be great if we could have ALL of the fans wear “RED” to the game on that night. It would be an amazing display from our fans and send a “RED WAVE” across the country.
What are your thoughts? Let’s get the WORD OUT to our fan base!!!”
As far as white-out/black-out/your color here-out goes, I think red would be pretty cool. It would fall on the Hawks to publicize it, but just passing along the e-mail.
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248 comments Add your comment
Truth-Serum
November 25th, 2009
7:29 am
vava74 I haven’t changed perhaps your perception has.
At this point I invoke the Big Ray rule and avoid conversation with bloggers who end result is obvious, whose purpose is clear. May be i m premature in my assertion but as Ben Franklin would say, experience keeps a dear school. Perhaps you have changed, in which case I will welcome the positive results.
SOS
November 25th, 2009
7:31 am
You cannot liken the minutes that Josh, Marvin, and Al got as rookies, to that of a player like Teague. Really, you can count Royal Ivey in that group as well. But put Ivey on THIS Hawks squad, and he wouldn’t see a single minute. Dude couldn’t shoot, and he while he did play defense, he couldn’t come close to running a team, and wasn’t as all-out-energetic as Mario West.
Simply look at what the Hawks had roster-wise at the time, and there is your answer. Who did we have to play in front of those guys? Al Harrington was around for a little while, then he was gone. Jason Collier (RIP) was a rotation player. But can you name the guys who started in front of these guys? If you can’t, then that should tell you something. If you CAN, then you already know the deal.
The closest situation you can come to is with Al Horford. But even then, it was obvious that he was the best center on the team. Once again, who did he have to beat for the starting spot? Zaza and Lorenzen Wright….
Truth-Serum
November 25th, 2009
7:49 am
SOS lets add the Great Roy Marble to that category. Its amazing how we fans try to force the coach’s hands. Your insight is spot on!
Truth-Serum
November 25th, 2009
7:55 am
SOS, as far as Teague’s lobbyist, I haven’t heard anyone address the fact that one successful
method of training middle of the pack rookies is to bench them the entire first year and let them learn from observation. Unless you are a Blue Chip draftee or on a team that’s decimated at your position, most will let you tour the league once or twice before throwing you to the wolves.
Dap01
November 25th, 2009
8:14 am
Excellent point Ken!
If Woody is being serious about not caring about offense and only caring about defense, why does he play Bibby. I like Bibby but he is one of the WORST defenders in the NBA.
He coaches as if he cares nothing about defense. Look at his rotations, look at his lineups.
Perhaps, Woody should say, “I know nothing about offense, so I will concentrate on defense”. But that can not be true if he continues to play the offensive minded players. That comment should not be made by a NBA coach.
Translation: Teague, good luck developing yourself.
Daniel
November 25th, 2009
9:02 am
Truth-Serum:
This is not meant as a knock on you, but you have clearly changed your style of posts for the better. It is a compliment. Keep up the good work.
vava74
November 25th, 2009
9:25 am
Yeah, just by invoking the Big Ray rule there is significant progress!
vava74
November 25th, 2009
9:28 am
As mentioned on a previous post that I might do, I ordered a copy of The Book of Basketball by Bill Simmons and got gift wrapped and remitted to JJ asking him to read the chapter where Isaiah Thomas talks about the secret behind the Piston’s championships in the 80’s.
Since I was limited to 240 characters there was not much that I could say to beyond that I thought that we could be a champion in the making if everyone understood Isaiah’s message and sticked to it.
I hope that the package arrives to the right hands and that JJ accepts it with a good spirit!!!
GeeMack
November 25th, 2009
9:49 am
I got a question for Hawks fans…..Do ya’ll thing JSmoove will make the all star team? Personally I think he should, however here are the guys I think the national media & coaches will put ahead of him.
KG (eventhough JS is having a better year) star power will get him there, Bosh; I think he is one of the forward having a better year than JS.
LBJ no explanation needed. Danny Granger scoring is much better, but JS destroys him all the other areas plus JS team is a Eastern Conference contender. That should count for something.
These are the guys I see could make it before him. What ya’ll think.
GeeMack
November 25th, 2009
9:54 am
Ken
Enjoy your trip homie!
GeeMack
November 25th, 2009
10:18 am
I for got about Paul Peirce.
The real reason why fan attendance is low...
November 25th, 2009
10:22 am
…is because the local teams are doing a terrible job at marketing their product. I’m a native Atlantan and when I travel to other cities, you see their local team logos everywhere, you hear commercials promoting teams and upcoming games (even against bad teams) all over the dial and (most importantly) they don’t have to use gimmicks to get people into the stands.
Ted Turner was a master at self-promotion and showed everyone how to make ALL DEMOGRAPHICS within a city fall in love with its team, even when the team doesn’t have much of a winning history — but none of these other local organizations seem as though they want to even put forth the effort.
Winning doesn’t automatically make the people come out. The team brass must make the populace feel like they have a stake in this, as well. It happens everywhere. Arthur Blank is currently doing a pretty decent job of it, but he spoent so much of his time promoting a single player back then that, well, we all see how tough it’s been to unite the city behind the Falcons since that player departed.
Clean house in the marketing departments of each of these pro teams and get some new fresh minds in there to market these good young teams and watch attendance go through the roof.
GO HAWKS!
November 25th, 2009
10:30 am
Well, we’re only one month in, so I guess we shouldn’t panic about Teague’s minutes just yet, especially considering the great start the team is off to.
There will come a time when Jeff will be needed, so we can only hope that he stays ready in the mean time. Until then, I think he’s got the right mindset.
GO HAWKS!
November 25th, 2009
10:37 am
Gee Mack,
Josh has gotta be among the East all-star forwards. I think they choose five of them, so I’d take Bosh (if he’s considered a PF), KG, Lebron, Josh and Granger. Antawn Jamison has been a beast since he returned so he may get one of those spots if Bosh makes it on the roster as a center.
niremetal
November 25th, 2009
10:38 am
Ted Turner was a master at self-promotion and showed everyone how to make ALL DEMOGRAPHICS within a city fall in love with its team, even when the team doesn’t have much of a winning history — but none of these other local organizations seem as though they want to even put forth the effort.
Uh…were you around when the Braves were at or near the bottom of the majors in attendance throughout the 1980’s? And when the Braves couldn’t sell out playoff games during their heyday even while Cleveland (a team with even worse success and choking in the playoffs) was selling out every single regular season game for 6 straight years?
More to the point, Ted Turner owned the Hawks for 20 years, during which the team never ranked higher than 8th in the NBA in attendance. In fact, the Hawks have never gotten higher than 8th in the NBA in attendance since they came to Atlanta, and the last two times they won more than 55 games (in ‘94 and ‘98), they ranked 21st and 27th in attendance. We ranked 27th in attendance in the lockout year, even though we ended up being the #3 seed in the East.
Marketing won’t do much in Atlanta, where two-thirds of the population was born outside Georgia. Loyalty to sports teams in Atlanta simply doesn’t run deep. And to the extent that it does run deep, no one can say with a straight face that NBA basketball is in the top 4 sports followed by Atlanta fans – college football, pro baseball, pro football, college basketball, and probably even high school football are all bigger events among the “natives” to this region.
Atlanta is not New York, LA, or Chicago – cities with supermassive populations and correspondingly huge TV markets. Atlanta is not Portland, San Antonio, or Salt Lake City, where pro basketball is the only show in town. It’s not Boston, a city with a well-established population, most of whom have lived in the area for at least a generation or two. It’s a spread out metropolis whose residents were mostly born elsewhere, and whose natives mostly grew up on sports other than pro basketball. Simply put, when compared to NBA teams in other cities as well as to other sports teams in our own city, Hawks attendance takes longer to get going even when we are winning (and even then they don’t come in high numbers), and tails off much more quickly when they start losing.
ILL-logical
November 25th, 2009
10:39 am
Playing someone doesn’t necessarily mean developing them,case in point: Josh Smith played shooting guard his first year, then small forward his second and has been sent to power forward land by the drafting of Marvin. At no time was there any eveidence on the part of the coaching staff to develop his skills; it was always about Josh playing defense and not disrupting the offense.
Josh went to Houston to work with Hakeem on his own; then got no plays run for him for his trouble. When he develops a 15 footer it will be because he decides to. Imagine if Mr. Sund had not hired Price, where would the players get support and development for their shooting skills?
Another note: Mr. Sund hired Mark Price not Woodson. He has worked on the free throw shooting of some players and Al mentioned in a recent interview that he had been working with Price to develop his outside shot. To me, that is what player development is about, enhancing the skill sets that will make the player better not just fit into a particular style of play.
Teague needs to work on his outside shot as well as his decision making skills as the year progresses but he also needs to play inorder to develop his style and rythmn.
GeeMack
November 25th, 2009
11:04 am
Go Hawks
Good point. I forgot all about Jamison. Looks like it’s still gone be tough to get Josh in there. Hopefully we will have better success with AL with the shortage of centers in the east.
GO HAWKS!
November 25th, 2009
11:15 am
Yeah, I think the real question is whether Al can make it.
Right now, I’d say he’d have to fight it out with maybe Noah and maybe Bargnani to be named the third center if the selection committee takes three. If the Hawks keep winning, I don’t see why it wouldn’t happen.
rusty
November 25th, 2009
11:40 am
jt already is a differant player than he was in pre season. woody has already done damage. how can anyone think that jj has been playing so great. he is already disrupting our offense,he slows down our uptempo game with his constant ball hogging. i have also noticed that crawfords game suffers when he is in with jj. i have also noticed that when jj is ball hogging jj smith always comes out to the perimeter which really hurts our offense
Hawks Fan In New Orleans
November 25th, 2009
12:05 pm
Niremetal
“Its funny to me that some people are okay with Teague not playing many minutes, but if Bibby gets hurt for an extended period of time, they expect Teague to come in and play well.
I would love to know one person who has said/done this.”
Woodson said this.
Daniel
November 25th, 2009
12:11 pm
It seemed obvious to me at the time that when the Hawks drafted Teague we were looking to develop him as the starting pg in 2-3 years. I am really not sure why after only 14 games we are so worried about his minutes.
Daniel
November 25th, 2009
12:14 pm
GeeMack- I definitely think that Josh deserves to be an All Star. Honestly, Al is playing well enough to make the team. You are right about National Media bias though. However, they both play well on Thurs. and you start to really make a name for yourself.
A Thinking Fan
November 25th, 2009
12:28 pm
2nd tier HCs always find a rational that supports their dysfunctional points of view.
PLAY T & STOP OVERPLAYING JJ!
jean bk
November 25th, 2009
12:37 pm
enough of this teague bs he looked like a nba player in one of the games vs lakers other then that he has done nothing…..he shouldnt play unless iz a blowout or we get blowout
vava74
November 25th, 2009
1:05 pm
Rusty,
We are 11-3 and we have not seen too much ball hogging this year… All star players monopolize the ball here and there all the time and it is not only with JJ and the Hawks.
In case you have not noticed, all other teams lost games and had sub par showings. It is a repeated occurrence when a team loses that players and coaches point out the following causes:
1. Lack of defense and or rebounding
2. Lack of ball movement
3. Too much reliance on jump shooting and almost no driving to the basket
Even so, knowing the above does not prevent teams and players to repeat the same mistakes over and over.
When the legs and heads are worn out, like in NO, nothing works as it should.
Also, in at least one of the few occasions in which we did see JJ having the ball for extended minutes and several possessions he bailed us out against Portland completely overplaying a guy which many around here were proclaiming as being a lot better than JJ (Roy).
Right now we are on pace for 64 wins so we should enjoy the moment.
Truth-Serum
November 25th, 2009
1:09 pm
Daniel, I appreciate your compliment?
If you mean I’m using a different style, well, yes, you can thank Ray for that. I have no problem being offensive if that is the method used to approach me. Believe that. I can be offensive with the best of them. I can communicate on many levels.
Yes, I’m reaching out to the more serious minded poster and trying to live above the negative element. There are a few here that I enjoy sharing exchange with.
When I first took note of this site, the first thing that stood out was the, anti Woodson, element, which was something that I had not experienced on any other sight. When I inquired what the negativism was about, many of those who were against Woodson vented their anger on me for asking legitimate questions that exposed often irrational and emotionally charged responses. There was/is a definite hate cell here that is not present on any other site. I just responded to them as they responded to me. To the ignorant, I responded ignorantly, to the foolish, I responded in kind.
I began to think that everyone here was ignorant and foolish, full of irrational hate. I thought that way until, Sekou, (to whom I apologized), and Big Ray, made it clear they were also aware of the “element”, felt my pain and showed some leadership in giving direction as to how to deal with it. That’s why you hear me invoke my “Big-Ray-Rule”. It’s a way to avoid the rift raft and move on to positive conversation.
Guys like Samuel, Gee Mack and KevinA and doc too have spoken in dignity and respect and that’s what they have got back from me. To sum it up, no, I’m still a buster to those who approach me in foolishness; I guess their number is dwindling. It could be that they’ve grown tired of my nasty responses and have moved on, or the big ray rule is in effective, working. The conclusion is, maybe you are getting less non diplomatic responses from me because less garbage is coming my way.
I haven’t changed. I’m just given a greater opportunity to speak with the class of the blog page to whom I respond in kind with class.
I guess it’s a good sign that you’ve notice that something has changed.
Truth-Serum
November 25th, 2009
1:15 pm
OK, Daniel, Gee Mack, name me three power forwards in the east, or if you like the NBA who is playing better than Josh or in your opinion is better than josh.
I’m clear. Josh is in the top 3 NBA wise and maybe the best in the east. In fact he may be the best in the NBA if he keep staying with in Josh.
richbrave
November 25th, 2009
1:15 pm
Well, something has changed in WASHINGTON. No not politicos. They’re still up to their time honored tricks. No a genuinely good guy with deep pockets has passed from the D.C. sports scene. Ownership of the WIZARDS will probably go to TED LEONSIS and his group. Let’s hope for the NBA’s sake it does, rather than IRENE POLLIN attempting to carry on ABE POLLIN’s crusade to bring another NBA crown to D.C. I’m keeping my fingers crossed, and hope DAVID STERN does some heavy lobbying to make it happen.
Truth-Serum
November 25th, 2009
1:19 pm
vava74
November 25th, 2009
9:25 am
Yeah, just by invoking the Big Ray rule there is significant progress!
Very true, its helps. Some continue to pursue conversation with you or about you even when you have distanced yourself. Im not above a back hand slap… But I will try to remain above the fray.
Thanks for the shout.
Daniel
November 25th, 2009
1:33 pm
Alright Truth- KG is a better power forward than Josh (but I am honestly not sure if he playing better this season). Chris Bosh(although he may be on the center list). LeBron Obviously (although kinda more a SF) Jaimison is having a great year as well.
All that said, I think Josh’s overall game this year (particularly the rebounding numbers) puts him in the All Star game. If he keeps playing this way, I don’t see how they can keep him out.
I also think Horford should be getting consideration for the All Star game as well.
Daniel
November 25th, 2009
1:36 pm
Josh had a pretty rough game against Houston, but stayed with it and made an incredible play at the end of the game. That kind of maturity and effort is All Star calibre for sure!!!
Truth-Serum
November 25th, 2009
1:48 pm
No doubt Josh is an allstar. Garnett is good but he peaked the last two years and is on the down slope of his career. Chris Bosh?They are comparative, but I wouldn’t overwhelming say Bosh is better than Josh, but in a battle of four letter names id give Bosh the edge because B comes before J. Lebron, no doubt. Jamison? Ill take Josh Any day here. I think there are four selections at each conference per position. Josh should be one of them.
Just win baby!
Truth-Serum
November 25th, 2009
1:52 pm
I wont say Al is a top four center and if he were competing in his natural power forward spot I dont think hed be top 5 power forward. Yes, He should get honorable mention at either spot. Hes a hard working blue collar guy.
Daniel
November 25th, 2009
2:02 pm
Bosh- has a better body of work. But, I am with you on Josh’s upside.
Who in the East is better at the center position? OK, besides Howard.
Daniel
November 25th, 2009
2:11 pm
I mean after Howard…. Rasheed Wallace(?) or Perkins(?), Brook Lopez? (I mean your team has to at least win a game first right?), Barnangni or Noah?… I just don’t see any of them playing better this season than Horford.
Daniel
November 25th, 2009
2:12 pm
Of course I am limiting this to the Eastern Conference
MsDee
November 25th, 2009
2:14 pm
I say Horford is the next best center behind Howard!!
GeeMack
November 25th, 2009
2:23 pm
Daniel & Truth
If they were doing the All Star nods based on SF & PF then yes we could get Josh in based on this years performances. However the eastern conference carries 4 or 5 forward spot for the All Star game. Josh is competing against (Bosh, KG’s (popularity), Paul Pierce, Jamison, LBJ, & Danny Granger; The new kid on the block. I think he should make it because his team is a contender in the east.
Trutb-Serum
November 25th, 2009
2:23 pm
OK we got Howard and by default and name recognition Shaq, Rasheed will get some rec, as will jermaine oneal as will Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Emeka Okafor. Do I think Horford can compete favorably with three of the six. No doubt.
Trutb-Serum
November 25th, 2009
2:28 pm
I wanted Lopez on my list too but bit my tongue.
Hey. we as just as good as the other guys. Name recognition and fans stuffing the ballots boxes is what counts. Maybe we can stuff the ballots in droves and get our guys on there. After this year we wont have any problems with name recognition.
Just Win Baby
Truth-Serum
November 25th, 2009
2:28 pm
*Truth-Serum
GO HAWKS!
November 25th, 2009
2:32 pm
Horford is the second most talented center in the East after Dwight, but Noah, Lopez and Barnani will all probably have similar numbers to Al by the time the voting ends.
One thing Al has going for him is that Noah isn’t even on the Eastern ballot. Add that to the struggles of Brook’s Nets and it might be in the bag. Can’t take anything for granted though. Still a couple months away, we gotta keep winning to stay in the lead of these highlight shows.
Truth-Serum
November 25th, 2009
2:34 pm
This guy is singing teagues praises as the next coming of Michael Jordan.
http://theredzonereport.com/2009/07/03/2009-nba-draft-grades-which-teams-passed-with-flying-colors/1643/#more-1643
Mz. Hawkdafied
November 25th, 2009
2:47 pm
I agree if we put just as much passion into voting for our Hawks All Stars as we do blogging then perhaps they will be on the Eastern All Star team or better yet become starters. A great opportunity to do this coming up tomorrow. Take some ballots home and bring them back the next game on December 2nd.
GO HAWKS!
Daniel
November 25th, 2009
2:47 pm
Gee- I think “IF” Josh keeps playing this way, the national attention will be greater for him than Granger or Jaimison.
Truth- If Shaq, Jermaine or Ilgauskas get selected, then I won’t even watch the All Star game.
Go Hawks!- I think you are right on with your assesment.
To be honest (as Gee pointed out) Horford actually has less competition at his spot than Josh.
Hey, I already submitted 50 votes.
Daniel
November 25th, 2009
2:48 pm
Mz. Hawkdafied- word up!!!
Daniel
November 25th, 2009
2:49 pm
Truth- Okafur is in the Western Conference now.
Daniel
November 25th, 2009
2:56 pm
Ms. Dee- I think you are right.
GO HAWKS!
November 25th, 2009
3:03 pm
We should also beware of the Boston-hype machine pushing to get Perkins on the roster. Rondo can’t shoot nor hit free throws, but I guarantee he makes it over some other deserving guard (like Brandon Jennings) just off the whining/lobbying from the Celtics’ fans.
Daniel
November 25th, 2009
3:03 pm
Horford is currently averaging a double-double, is second only to Howard for number of double/ double’s with 8. Is fifth in blocked shots. Is averaging 2 assists per game, only Noah has more APG with greater than 10 rebounds a game. (I just don’t count David Lee’s numbers- plus Horford dominated him)