Hawks-Hornets
Greetings, all
I’m at the homestead for this one and will be watching on the television as you all will.
Some thoughts and on we go.
Why the Hawks win tonight
1) Marvin Williams has gotten himself in a groove and has an exploitable matchup against Peja Stojakovic.
2) The Hawks asserted themselves as the better team a week ago. Their fourth-quarter run from the last game may linger somewhere in the Hornets’ collective memory.
3) Joe Johnson and Josh Smith played below their capabilities Friday. Bibby’s numbers weren’t outstanding, either. It’s unlikely it happens two nights in a row.
Why they won’t
1) They’re just due. It’s the second game of a back-to-back with a flight in-between. The Hawks haven’t had back-to-backs in the streak except for the start. Further, the Hornets have been home all week and come into the game on a day of rest.
2) Houston took a lot out of the Hawks Friday night. The Rockets are a relentless bunch, as the final three minutes of the game revealed.
3) The Hornets have found something since losing to Portland and the Hawks to open the Jeff Bower era. They’ve beaten the Clippers and Suns since then. They took down 25 offensive rebounds against Phoenix.
Whatcha think?
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468 comments Add your comment
truly1
November 22nd, 2009
12:45 pm
i would say put him out there and let him shot or dont play him at all this year
darrell starks
November 22nd, 2009
12:52 pm
TRUTH SERUM wow i didnt no that.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!
Ken Strickland
November 22nd, 2009
1:02 pm
VALVA74-you make some valid points, and it’s true about Kobe taking over the OFF from time to time like JJ. However, you can bet your bottom dollar if Kobe does it, he’d better be on his gm and very productive. There’s no way Phil would allow him to continue doing it if he was as ineffective as JJ’s been the last 2 nights. If something isn’t working, you try something else. If you don’t have something else, or something else that you trust, it demonstrates your limitations as a HC, and the obvious limitations of your OFF system.
Over the last 2-3yrs, we’ve seen Woodson coach much like a young developing animal that hasn’t ventured out from his shelter. The young animals’ instinct tells it if it wants to continue surviving it has to venture out(has to change to an uptempo OFF and utilize the bench more). It finally gets the message and does stick its head out(periodically allowing the team to play uptempo), but won’t commit to exposing itself(frequently reverts back to a halfcourt jumpshooting OFF). Then, it actually ventures out into the new environment, but it’s very nervous, shakey and doesn’t seem to know what to expect(committing to maintaining an uptempo OFF and using his bench and not overplaying his starters). At the slightest hint of any perceived trouble, it scurry’s back into its shelter to seek comfort, without determining if it’s friend or foe(The fear of losing forces him to revert back to overplaying his key starters, and underutilizing his bench). Scurrying back into its shelter doesn’t automatically mean it’s out of danger, but it just doesn’t know what else to do, because it’s operating on instincts, not experience, knowledge or confidence(coaching scared, coaching not to lose rather than being aggressive and coaching to win).
This is what we’re getting from Woodson. He knows he has to venture out, do something different and expand his skills. Yet, it’s outside his comfort/trust zone, and at the first sign of trouble or discomfort, he scurrys back to what he trusts or feels comfortable with. It’s obvious he only has total trust in Bibby and JJ. The other starters get consideration because he has even less trust in their backups than he has in them.
How do you explain a HC that shows patience, committment and tolerance for a 5yr veteran player, who had obviously lost his confidence and was having a rough time over the 1st 10gms, yet, is too thick headed and stubborn to realize the same fomular is necessary for developing young inexperienced players like SStaudemire, ALaw and JTeague? Where would this team be without the development of his starting frontline? He certainly didn’t give any of them inconsistent mins or punish them in any way for making mistakes. Of course, he had little choice in the matter since he didn’t really have any viable options sitting on his bench, and his former GM probably insisted on it as well, hence the rift between the 2.
WHILE BOTH THE TEAM, ITS PLAYERS AND WOODSON HAVE GROWN AND MATURED OVER THE YRS, THE TEAM AND IT’S PLAYERS HAVE GROWN AND MATURED A WHOLE LOT MORE AND A WHOLE LOT FASTER THAN WOODSON. Isn’t it revealing when a 23 yr old player, who came right out of high school and is known for being immature, realizes he needs to change his approach in order to get better after 5yrs of inconsistency and frustration. After making the committment he actually gets much better and more consistent.
On the other hand, his HC, who was an All-American at Indiana U, played 11yrs in the NBA, coached several yrs under LBrown, one of the NBA’s best HC’s, and has been a HC for 5yrs, is still struggling with making a committment to developing young inexperience players, committing to doing the things that’s made this team so successful this season(like extending his bench play and not overplaying key starters, insisting his key player(s) keep the ball moving and not revert to the ISO and one on one play that hasn’t benefitted the team).
Woodson doesn’t seem to instill confidence in people and/or destroys confidence in others. He managed to lose the confidence of former GM BKnight, who tried to fire his several times. He certainly didn’t instill any confidence in players/high draft picks like SStaudemire, ALaw and SJones. After the ASG refused to allow former GM BKnight to fire him on several occasions, and made the decision to retain him over GM BKnight, they seem to have lost some degree of confidence in him by refusing to offer him another contract extension.
I’m still going to be patient and hope he’s not too stubborn and unwilling to learn from his mistakes and overcome his negative instincts and insecurities.
I MUS WRITE
November 22nd, 2009
1:03 pm
I hear you Doc…..The woman has a way with words LOL
We arer’nt going to win every game, I thought we would be able to squeeze this one out tho. O well stiil on top of the East …..
Okay enuff is enuff JeJE- your post used to kinda funny with the doom and gloom ,but now its irritating- why do you post here-I’ve never seen a positive post from you -about anything….Its all bytch’n and hate’n
U are the most negative person on this blog and that takes sum work.
How about your insight or opinions on how to fix this underacheiving/broken team that you love to hate.
Teague doesnt need to hit the weight room -pound for pound he is the 2nd strongest player on the team behind MO. the problem is “He Cant Shoot” so he looks for driving lanes that are’nt there which result in TO’s or bad shots. The offense is built for our guards to gun away and if you cant shoot it then you look lost ala AC Law. I did notice that his body language is not so good and he looks to have lost sum confidence from Training Camp
Again if Denver had’nt gotten Lawson would we have taken him at 19…probably not seeing as how he is 5′11. Hmmmm Cp is 5′11 and I think that turned out okay. Lawson is a special lil guy blazing quick nice feel for the game and a nice outside shot- Minnesota is probably kickn themselves right now Jennings and Lawson over Flynn and Rubio all day.
NO got sum nice looking yung guards…Collison,BBrownand Thornton are gonna b a nice trio….from last nights game Thornton reminds me of a yung DWade and at 6 ft b Brow is so dam quick/athletic……. Teague tur
ned his head for a minute and got a face full of testicles …..Brown with a two handed alley oop
JeJe -STOP HATE”N !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FALCONS IN 5 LETS GEAUX BIRDS
Truth-Serum
November 22nd, 2009
1:08 pm
darrell starks
He came public with that after the hornets loss and flip torched us for 15 points and 6 rebounds in 17 minutes of play.
Truth-Serum
November 22nd, 2009
1:18 pm
truly1 I agree to some level. I think my be a hybrid form of some playing time and some bench time, with more bench than play. If he can step up and gasp the game,cool. I like your idea and many coaches have used it to some success.
Bench him the first year. Give him significant playing time the second and then play him, trade him or cut him the third year. Im sure futuristically there will be better guards in the up coming drafts. But I hope Teague steps up.
Truth-Serum
November 22nd, 2009
1:25 pm
*maybe
Truth-Serum
November 22nd, 2009
1:28 pm
Quiz: who is the longest sitting head coach in the NBA?
The Hawksta
November 22nd, 2009
2:05 pm
Utah Jazz hc
DunwoodyHawk
November 22nd, 2009
2:08 pm
Strickland, you’re right about Woody not having faith in Acie, Shelden and SoLo. Which makes it particularly inexplicable since those three have gone elsewhere and become All Stars.
Sorry, but those players did nothing to instill confidence. I wouldn’t have played them. Sorry, this isn’t church-league youth basketball where everyone plays the same minutes and gets a trophy for participating.
I agree there was too much Iso Joe last night. But when Bibby went out, we lost one of the shooters that Joe kicks the ball out to. And Mo just doesn’t have this three-point shot this season. We probably should have had more motion offense, but truth is Joe is so big and strong that backing his man into the paint usually works the majority of the time.
Truth-Serum
November 22nd, 2009
2:19 pm
QUIZ ANSWER IS….MIKE WOODSON, ATLANTA’S SIX YEAR COACH.
Season Age Lg Tm G W L W-L% W > .500 Finish G Plyf W Plyf L Plyf W-L% Plyf Notes
2004-05 46 NBA
ATL
82 13 69 .159 -28.0 5
2005-06 47 NBA
ATL
82 26 56 .317 -15.0 4
2006-07 48 NBA
ATL
82 30 52 .366 -11.0 5
2007-08 49 NBA
ATL
82 37 45 .451 -4.0 3 7 3 4 .429
2008-09 50 NBA
ATL
82 47 35 .573 6.0 2 11 4 7 .364
2009-10 51 NBA
ATL
14 11 3 .786 4.0 1
Career NBA 424 164 260 .387 -48.0 18 7 11 .389
Mike Woodson took over as the coach of the Hawks prior to the 2004-05 season, after the franchise fired Terry Stotts. Since then, Woodson and the Hawks franchise have struggled to give any impression they were on the verge of becoming one of the deepest and most dangerous teams in the NBA.
Filled with a roster of young and unproven draft picks, a GM who was feuding and clashing with ownership and the coaching staff, and an ownership squabble that threatened to keep the team in total chaos, it was hard to see any signs of success on the horizon.
Through all of that, however, Mike Woodson never wavered. His no nonsense approach to defense and accountability often clashed with budding superstars like Josh Smith and others. Yet, having studied under the likes of the legendary Bobby Knight and Larry Brown, Woodson stayed the course. His post game quotes often sounded like broken records, “We need to defend and rebound the ball better.”
Finally, in the summer of 2005, the Hawks were able to acquire one of the most sought after free agents in the NBA—Joe Johnson. The Hawks still struggled, largely due to some bad draft picks and lack of overall team depth.
Things began to turn around in the summer of 2007 as the Hawks finally got it right in drafting Al Horford, a two-time NCAA champion at the University of Florida. That same year, the Hawks signed veteran guard Mike Bibby, and hired a new General Manager in Rick Sund.
Woodson’s Hawks shocked the world by taking the eventual champion Boston Celtics to a seventh game in the first round of the playoffs before losing.
GM Rick Sund made another bold move by letting free agent forward Josh Childress go, replacing him with two more veterans in Maurice Evans and Ronald “Flip” Murray.
This season, the Hawks have continued to ride last year’s playoff wave by getting off to their best start in over 10 years. They lost on a last second shot by Paul Pierce against the Boston Celtics in the Boston Garden despite a back-to-back schedule and playing without one of the NBA leading defensive players, Josh Smith.
A 6-1 start has caused many around the league to take notice of this team and only goes to strengthen Woodson’s resolve to stay the course.
Truth-Serum
November 22nd, 2009
2:24 pm
HAWKSTA YOU ARE RIGHT IN THE NBA, I THINK WOODSON IS THE LONGEST TENURE IN THE EAST.
Truth-Serum
November 22nd, 2009
2:25 pm
HAS SOLO RETURNED TO THE CBA THAT HE CAME FROM?
cp
November 22nd, 2009
2:39 pm
How good can a player look when he only plays 2 minutes here and 5 minutes there? If Teague was playing consistent minutes and looked lost then I would be concerned. The fact that his minutes are sporadic makes it even harder to evaluate him. But I do see the same face Law used to have sitting on the bench. The vets can make mistake after mistake but if they make just one then they are glued to the bench. A young player cannot make progress if they are not allowed to play through their mistakes. Its to the point where it seems like no matter what pg we would have taken it would have been the same issue. Make a mistake and get stuck to the bench.
KevinA
November 22nd, 2009
3:55 pm
Marvin and Stojakovic were pretty much a wash.
Ken Strickland
November 22nd, 2009
12:07 am
What we saw tonight was the ISO, one on one, half court, guard oriented jump shooting, fatigued team of the last few yrs. Woodson allowed JJ, who was obviously feeling the effects of playing 45mins last night, to selfishly dominate the OFF with his ISO’s and one on one BS. When Woodson allowed JJ to go ISO Joe exclusively, it made it easy for New Orleans to defend us.
A couple of rookie guards. Thorton/Collison went for 17-29
Our star guards went JJ/Jamal went 14-39
We won the battle of turn overs, we won the rebound battle.
Josh and Al were 9-22
Okafor and West 8-24
We did lose the assist race, Josh had 7 of our 15 assists
A rookie Collison had 11 on his own with the rest of the NO team chipping in for another 11.
Moral to the story? Ken said it best – What we saw tonight was the ISO, one on one, halfcourt, guard oriented jumpshooting, fatigued team of the last few yrs.
Why we don’t give the rock to our post players at least 30-35 times a game, every game, is beyond me. Clearly the post is the strength of our team – why not pass it to them.
As posted before, where do these shots come from? 3 pt shooting. Yep a whopping 4-22.
Grandad
November 22nd, 2009
4:16 pm
Larry and Joe: Due to the order in which he had us placed I suppose
that I get to be Moe. I am honored to be placed in a
troika with such esteemed colleagues.
About jeff Teague: According to all that I read, we had him ranked
higher on the board than Flynn, Lawson, Maynor,
and Holliday. There may have been others. My point,
we did not have him ranked as the 7th pt. guard
in the draft. One would assume Woodson had input.
If we did not plan to develop him then why draft
him. People are saying he can’t shoot[???]yet he led
us in scoring during pre-season. It is an outrage
what Woodson is doing to this young man. Yes, we saw
it with Acie. Not to mention what he is doing to
the long term health of the franchise. The manner in
which he is running this team is deplorable. Play
the young man, everyone can see that we will
eventually need him, ‘this year’.
Mr. Woodson-[Clyde-this is for you]: I choose not to call him coach.
*Coach is synonomous with “teacher”.
I don’t know what Mr. Woodson cosiders to be his role.
No one knows his philosophy / what he believes in as a
basketball administrator.
He has talent…administrates the games scared…does
not understand the concept of utilizing depth/bench.
He is not a: motivator, innovator, confidence builder,
offensive technician, communicator,teacher, nor manager.
Some if not all on this board use the term “hater”.
I do not particularly like that word although I
understand the context. Objectivity should not be
confused wi. hate. Hate is a ‘very ugly’ word with
bitter implications. I wish all the success in the
world for Mr. Woodson. However, I abhor watching him
manage/administrate our Hawks.
His 3 biggest shortcomings [in no particular order]:
* managing Joe’s min.
* lack of (or bad) off. system/philosophy
* handling of J. Teague [A. Law, et al]
Hawk n the Ham
November 22nd, 2009
4:43 pm
Settle down folks! We have 4 whole days to work this out until our next game.
Big Ump
November 22nd, 2009
4:43 pm
The Hawks lose last night so he become The worst HC in the NBA? So what about the coaches that have lost more games? Should they be in NBA? Again it’s amazing at what some of these Bloggers post.
Billy Knight
November 22nd, 2009
4:51 pm
Dear Sam and Rod,
You keep referring to Marvin’s draft position. I still await your response to my very simple question. Why are you still upset at Marvin for my decision to draft him #2 and how is Marvin’s draft position Marvin’s fault?
Sincerely,
William Knight
Big Ray
November 22nd, 2009
5:01 pm
Actually, Mike Woodson is NOT the longest tenured coach in the East, much less the NBA.
Lawrence Frank succeeded Byron Scott as head coach of the Nets on January 26th, 2004. This was during the 2003-2004 season. Woody started at the beginning of the 2004-2005 season.
Doc Rivers started in Boston the same year that Woodson started in Atlanta.
Big Ray
November 22nd, 2009
5:06 pm
But what has tenure got to do with anything? Show me an overall record. Show me continued and furthered postseason success. Show me an ability to change and find the winning formula when the usual stuff isn’t working. This is what interests me.
Tenure is something members of Congress have. And you see just how well that’s working out for us….
Truth-Serum
November 22nd, 2009
5:11 pm
Big Ump Id rather talk more about how outstanding the hawks have become, what’s it going to take for us to over take the “big three” and how can we address our need for a center in the playoff picture’s highest levels where the game becomes a have court game, rather than waste the energy addressing how to fix what aint broken.
At some point this year the hawks will lose more than one game at home, have a two or three game losing streak and lose to teams they are suppose to beat. Barring some major injury plague the Hawks will finish forth or better.
This “Kill Woody” attitude only demonstrates the level of understanding of the game some offer here.
It is also foolish of some to think that the 7th drafted guard is going to be an impact player. In his first year or two. The only reason the N.O. Rookie was getting so much playing time is because Chris Paul is out. It is very convenient for the anti-hawks naysayers to omit this very significant point.
Its been a nice short season, what the experts have predicted is right for the most part. The Hawks will win a lot of games. Between 47-51 is the range. If that’s true I hope we cant find serious bloggers who have insights about taking it to the higher levels of the playoffs, rather than this emotional, gossipy, spam from the crew Rod from college park talked about .
Yes, its amazing what some of the Bloggers post. I dont want to be around here when these spammers react after our first home lost.
Truth-Serum
November 22nd, 2009
5:14 pm
thanks for the correction on that ray. Good pick up.
Truth-Serum
November 22nd, 2009
5:17 pm
“Show me an overall record. Show me continued and furthered postseason success.” – I just did
Season Age Lg Tm G W L W-L% W > .500 Finish G Plyf W Plyf L Plyf W-L% Plyf Notes
2004-05 46 NBA
ATL
82 13 69 .159 -28.0 5
2005-06 47 NBA
ATL
82 26 56 .317 -15.0 4
2006-07 48 NBA
ATL
82 30 52 .366 -11.0 5
2007-08 49 NBA
ATL
82 37 45 .451 -4.0 3 7 3 4 .429
2008-09 50 NBA
ATL
82 47 35 .573 6.0 2 11 4 7 .364
2009-10 51 NBA
ATL
14 11 3 .786 4.0 1
Career NBA 424 164 260 .387 -48.0 18 7 11 .389
Mike Woodson took over as the coach of the Hawks prior to the 2004-05 season, after the franchise fired Terry Stotts. Since then, Woodson and the Hawks franchise have struggled to give any impression they were on the verge of becoming one of the deepest and most dangerous teams in the NBA.
Filled with a roster of young and unproven draft picks, a GM who was feuding and clashing with ownership and the coaching staff, and an ownership squabble that threatened to keep the team in total chaos, it was hard to see any signs of success on the horizon.
Through all of that, however, Mike Woodson never wavered. His no nonsense approach to defense and accountability often clashed with budding superstars like Josh Smith and others. Yet, having studied under the likes of the legendary Bobby Knight and Larry Brown, Woodson stayed the course. His post game quotes often sounded like broken records, “We need to defend and rebound the ball better.”
Finally, in the summer of 2005, the Hawks were able to acquire one of the most sought after free agents in the NBA—Joe Johnson. The Hawks still struggled, largely due to some bad draft picks and lack of overall team depth.
Things began to turn around in the summer of 2007 as the Hawks finally got it right in drafting Al Horford, a two-time NCAA champion at the University of Florida. That same year, the Hawks signed veteran guard Mike Bibby, and hired a new General Manager in Rick Sund.
Woodson’s Hawks shocked the world by taking the eventual champion Boston Celtics to a seventh game in the first round of the playoffs before losing.
GM Rick Sund made another bold move by letting free agent forward Josh Childress go, replacing him with two more veterans in Maurice Evans and Ronald “Flip” Murray.
This season, the Hawks have continued to ride last year’s playoff wave by getting off to their best start in over 10 years. They lost on a last second shot by Paul Pierce against the Boston Celtics in the Boston Garden despite a back-to-back schedule and playing without one of the NBA leading defensive players, Josh Smith.
A 6-1 start has caused many around the league to take notice of this team and only goes to strengthen Woodson’s resolve to stay the course.
Big Ray
November 22nd, 2009
5:20 pm
Truth Serum,
Jeff Bower is in a do or die situation down there in New Orleans. The way I see it, his onlytrue star is out, which is a good explanation as to why rookie guards Thornton and Collison are playing. I mean, David West is a two time all-star, but an all-star is not what I see him playing like this year so far. In fact, I like Josh Smith’s numbers better.
At the same time, this guy knows he has to do what it takes to win. It just so happens that he doesn’t have much else to turn to. These two rooks will get very valuable experience, the kind that Teague will miss.
But the Hornets aren’t in the same situation as the Hawks. The Hornets are trying to keep their heads above water. The Hawks are trying to become one of the top powers in the East, and in the NBA as a whole.
Mike Woodson doesn’t have to play Teague, the way Jeff Bower has to play Collison and Thornton.
However, he might want to consider extending the guy’s minutes. The reason? We don’t know the lasting effects of Mike Bibby’s ankle injury, and if it happens again, we may need Teague for more than 5 minutes. More importantly, we will need a more composed, effective Teague…even if it is only for five minutes. But, that will come in time. I don’t see the harm in playing him 10 minutes or more a game, though. Might need it down the stretch, and while practice may be a coach’s staple, real game time is where experienced is gained.
Truth-Serum
November 22nd, 2009
5:26 pm
Actually Ray the facts are Mike Woodson took over as the coach of the Hawks prior to the 2004-05 season, after the franchise fired Terry Stotts, according to the copy and paste.
niremetal
November 22nd, 2009
5:28 pm
Uh…isn’t that exactly what Ray said? That Woody started at the beginning of the 2004-2005 season?
Big Ray
November 22nd, 2009
5:31 pm
“Show me an overall record. Show me continued and furthered postseason success.” – I just did
Sorry, I didn’t mean that literally. My focus was that tenure doesn’t count for much. Look at the L.A. Clippers. O’Brien has been coaching them for years. They still can’t make the playoffs. They still can’t win. Tenure hasn’t done much for them, unfortunately.
When it comes to bare numbers, Mike Woodson’s overall record is not in his favor. However, an improving record from year to year is. These are just bare numbers of course. I don’t think the man’s story is fully written yet. A bigger portion of it will be written this year. The Hawks are 11-3 so far, great for the team, and for Woodson. If they can earn more regular season wins this year, his overall record improves (greatly, at that). Enjoy a better postseason performance, and this solidifies Woodson more than anything. Why? Because it shows he can maintain a winning edge AND improve.
The bold, bare numbers are both truth, and partially misleading. I think the quibbles some people have with Woodson are the “little things” that are actually important, though they don’t seem to be in the grand scheme of things. It’s easy to say that you will do whatever it takes to win. It works…. when it works . One day you wake up, though, and what was working yesterday, or last week, or last year….ain’t working anymore.
Think this is BS? Call Byron Scott and ask him how it feels. At the same time, I’m not going to lower the boom on Woody, because he hasn’t gotten there yet. He’s still in the stage of showing that he can maintain that winning edge. Having a winning record two years in a row does that. Winning your first round playoff matchup two years in a row does that. I think Woody can accomplish that with this team. Will he? We’ll know at the end of the year, and not before then.
In the meantime, I don’t see a problem with extolling his virtues anymore than I do bemoaning his shortcomings. We’re fans. We do both. If we all spoke with the same voice, it might not be as fun.
But that’s the key: let it be fun. It’s not serious. This is sports, not politics. There is no reason to be angry with each other because we don’t agree on everything.
I MUS WRITE
November 22nd, 2009
5:35 pm
Good detective work officer………
Truth-Serum
November 22nd, 2009
5:36 pm
We agree on that. I would have played teague and Mo and Collins alot more especially in the game with N.O.
I agree that playing experience would be a good teacher for teague but not as important as studing under Bibby. It is an assumption that teague is the guard of the future. While its true that soon (3 years or less) we will have to replace Bibby, Im not sold that teague is the man for the job. 10 minutes more per game? I subscribe to the lets win first, or if its not going to hurt the flow of the game. This is the pros and and the end of the day the question is did you win.
Who knows, maybe next year, Bibby’s replacement becomes more apparent. I dont want to turn a potential championship team over to an inexperienced and unproven rookie. Lest let him earn his stripes.
I remember when doc rivers came out of college (Marquette I believe). You knew right away he could run the show. I dont get this feel with teague.
Big Ray
November 22nd, 2009
5:38 pm
Actually Ray the facts are Mike Woodson took over as the coach of the Hawks prior to the 2004-05 season, after the franchise fired Terry Stotts, according to the copy and paste.
True. The distinction between him and Lawrence Frank is that Frank took over in the season PRIOR TO the ‘04-’05 season, making his tenure longer. Doc Rivers took over his current position in 2004, meaning that he didn’t do so any later than Woodson did, although I’m sure there is a difference of days or weeks between their actual hire announcements. Either way, both started the ‘04-’05 season in the same fashion, at the same time.
Truth-Serum
November 22nd, 2009
5:38 pm
No prior to is not the same as beginning of – just for the record,
I MUS WRITE
November 22nd, 2009
5:39 pm
Forget it Thruth Serum, The DA and Captain Crunch have spoken!!
Truth-Serum
November 22nd, 2009
5:46 pm
“meaning that he didn’t do so any later than Woodson did, although I’m sure there is a difference of days or weeks between their actual hire announcements.”
Ray I wont quibble any further because its a non issue. Fact are fact and there record has it that Woodson started in his capacity as a replacement for Slotts in the close of 2003-04 and begin his first full season in 04-05. which would put him ahead of Rivers.
I dont mind correction, when im incorrect.
Truth-Serum
November 22nd, 2009
5:47 pm
Ill take your advice I MUS WRITE
Grandad
November 22nd, 2009
5:48 pm
For those who say settle down, last night was just one loss, or all of a sudden Mr woodson is the worst administrator of basketball in the NBA,
the answer is simply none of the above.
* I am still very proud of our team and their record.
* I am not jumping off any bandwagon as I never jumped on one.
* I have been a Hawks fan since: “Jumping” Joe Caldwell
“Sweet” Lou Hudson
`Bill Bridges
(some probably didn’t even know he was a Hawk) `Paul Silas
`Walt Bellamy
(and my personal favorite) `Zelmo Beaty
***(no way “Pistol” plays as a rook – for Mr. Woodson)
* I am a Hawk fan !
* I understand last night was 1 loss. (albeit symtomatic)
* I do not need to settle down as I am not upset to begin with.
* Mr. woodson is not the worst b-ball administrator in the world.
BUT, he is in the discussion.
*** Has anyone considered that our maturing talent is winning regardless
of who fills out the book/lineup (manager).
Big Ray
November 22nd, 2009
5:57 pm
Truth Serum,
I agree. Let the kid earn his stripes. I don’t want him to play ten more minutes per game , I’d like to see him play 10 minutes or more . Royal Ivey did, and he’s not near as good as this kid.
I don’t think Teague’s leadership abillity is all that obvious yet. We don’t see him as a leader of this team, or having the ability to run this team because he just doesn’t have it yet. Of course, if we expected this from a #19 pick then we’re being a bit unrealistic.
That, and his level of poise is obviously lacking when in comparison to guys like Bibby, Crawford, etc.
Now, when is the last time you’ve seen a rookie pg playing for the Atlanta Hawks, that really seemed like he was ready to run a team? No, I’m not intending this as an anti-Woody argument. But think about it for a second. The next question is WHY? Is it management’s scouting and drafting? Do we manage to only get marginal young point guards? Or is is how Woody is with these young guys? Or….do we just need to be patient? Up until this point, I’ve seen far more positive interaction between Teague, his teammates, and Woodson. Woody isn’t acting like Teague just plain sucks, but he also isn’t forced to play the kid.
I think it’s very hard for a kid like Teague to come into this league, playing with three very much veteran guards like Johnson, Crawford, and Bibby. They can eat him up at any minute with their skills, knowledge and savvy. At the same time he can really learn from them.
Outside of Brandon Jennings, which young point guard do we see out there in the league, that could not only keep up with our guys, but take playing time from them?
Flynn? Lawson? Thornton? Collison? Maynor? I’d say none of the above. Tyreke Evans is another story, but we won’t go there (kid is crazy talented). But that’s why you see those guys playing as much as they do, where they do. There is a reason for each situation.
Sacramento is nowhere near a winning team. Therefore, they got a high lotto pick, and were wise enough to grab Evans.
Denver doesn’t have a lead guard on their bench like Jamal Crawford. Therefore, they need a decent backup. Therefore, Lawson plays more.
New Orleans has nothing in the backcourt without Chris Paul, and even WITH him, they need a backup. Hence, the minutes for Collison and Thornton are significant.
As you state, the Hawks are concerned with higher things. They have Bibby, Jamal, Joe. Now, if Bibby goes down and stays down, then things change. Until then, Teague gets to learn the ropes.
With the playing time comes the confidence, and the display of skills. I think we need not judge Teague too harshly. If he was getting the playing time, we’d see more from him. But right now, it’s not needed from him. I think he will produce when we need him to. But if you want to see him perform like some of these other rookies do, then you have to play him enough. It’s just that we don’t need that from him right now.
Besides, it’s kind of hard to look like you can take over a team when you only play 5 minutes in a game….
I could see Teague getting as much playing time as Lawson does in Denver….except there’s a reason.
Big Ray
November 22nd, 2009
5:59 pm
IMUS ,
You must be as bored as I am right now….although the conversation with Truth Serum has certainly proved amenable. Better than fighting with the numbskulls on some of those Falcons blogs.
Although, The Bird Cage is the place to be if you’re a Falcon fan.
niremetal
November 22nd, 2009
6:03 pm
Lol…give me a break, truth serum. In basketball terms, a coach getting hired “prior to” and “at the beginning of” a season mean the same thing – that the coach was hired during the offseason, and coached his first game with the team when the season began. Are you seriously suggesting that Ray intended a meaning any different than that? Get real.
niremetal
November 22nd, 2009
6:08 pm
And FOR THE RECORD, you’re wrong. Doc Rivers was hired on April 29, 2004. Woodson was hired on July 8, 2004. You’re right that it doesn’t matter one iota – as long as the coach is in place for the start of minicamp, it hardly matters when exactly he was hired over the offseason. But you shouldn’t call people “wrong” about objectively verifiable facts unless you’re sure. Not that I’d have expected anything better from you.
Big Ray
November 22nd, 2009
6:09 pm
Truth Serum,
I subscribe to the lets win first, or if its not going to hurt the flow of the game. This is the pros and and the end of the day the question is did you win.
I agree. Hard to argue with that.
Ray I wont quibble any further because its a non issue. Fact are fact and there record has it that Woodson started in his capacity as a replacement for Slotts in the close of 2003-04 and begin his first full season in 04-05. which would put him ahead of Rivers.
I dont mind correction, when im incorrect.
I agree, it’s a non issue. I really don’t know who got hired on which date, I didn’t look that far. I figure tenure has to do more with regular season games worked than it does hire dates in between regular seasons. I don’t mind being corrected either, though sometimes I have to be shown when I’m wrong.
Who knows, maybe next year, Bibby’s replacement becomes more apparent. I dont want to turn a potential championship team over to an inexperienced and unproven rookie. Lest let him earn his stripes.
I agree again. I don’t think anybody is seriously calling for this kid to take over, though many believe he should play more minutes. Perhaps some are hasty and overly exuberant in expressing this. For instance, I can see him playing 12 minutes a game, as opposed to just 5-7 minutes per game. I do NOT see the need to playing him 20 minutes per game or more. At the same time, if we’re in a game that’s tough, and both Joe and Jamal are keeping us in it, or keeping us ahead…by all means, sacrifice Teague’s minutes for that game, for the purpose of winning it.
Yeah, at that point in time it’s stupid to complain about Teague getting his minutes if Crawford is unstoppable, Joe is beasting, and Bibby is shooting the lights out, particularly if it’s a tightly contested game. But if we’re easily maintaining a double digit lead, then yeah, throw the kid in there for a while and see if he can keep the flow going.
I think moderations, situation, scenario, etc plays into this. But you know how it goes. People tend to gravitate to one extreme or another…..
Big Ray
November 22nd, 2009
6:11 pm
Nire ,
I see you did the homework that I failed to do.
Truth-Serum
November 22nd, 2009
6:42 pm
I find myself in agree with you enough to just sit back and let you put it out there!!!
What can I say….Ditto. Where do I cosign? LOL
Some times it comes down to which team drafts you, and who’s in front of you. I think that Sund and Hawks management had drafted best player available until we got the nucleus when have now. Currently I think they draft for position. There’s only so much talent you get at 19th (unless you are lucky) ,when you are trying to fill a specific rather than a best player available. I like the ladder because I may be able to trade my best available for what I need.
Both strategies and work.
I guess the way i may compromise on the teague situation is give him 5-15 minutes against teams we should clearly beat, and 0 – 5 against major competition. Maybe that will get us close to the ten you request.
Actually hes getting 9.4 minutes per game now which should be close enough to the ten you request. Im sure we can find the .6 some where.-LOL
From what I have seen of him, hes making a lot of rookie mistakes which is to be expected. Id like to see him be more assertive and like one poster said, not be a deer in the headlights.
Very good post Ray, you do good work, I got to visit your blog page some time soon.
Truth-Serum
November 22nd, 2009
6:54 pm
* Basketball
The Boston Globe
Hawks reportedly will tab Woodson
July 6, 2004
I guess we could argue days and minutes if necessary. I actually found 3 site with contrasting information, which tells me you cant always trust whats in print.
I appreciate the Ray.
Truth-Serum
November 22nd, 2009
6:55 pm
*I appreciate the exchange Ray
Truth-Serum
November 22nd, 2009
7:00 pm
niremetal I appreciate the offer to argue and debate, however, Ill pass by invoking my Big Ray Rule.
I hope you have a nice night and good luck to you.- Go Hawks
Truth-Serum
November 22nd, 2009
7:04 pm
Truth-Serum
November 22nd, 2009
6:42 pm
* in agreement with you most of the time
* I like the latter
The argument about teague getting 10 per game is weird when you consider he gets 9.4 per game. What more can he show us in . 6 minutes?
O'Brien
November 22nd, 2009
7:10 pm
Big Ray,
If Bibby is still hampered for the Orlando game, how many minutes do you think Teague will get? Didnt Teague go 0-10 or something like that in the preseason game against Orlando?
I just think Woody has to find at least 10-12 minutes for Teague, if not every game, then almost every game. He will make mistakes, as all rookies do, but here we are with Bibby potentially missing time, and we have no idea what to expect from Teague.
What happens if Bibby misses 2 or 3 games? Do we really want Crawford running the point for 30 minutes? This is the reason why some of us were saying the Hawks should pick up a 3rd string veteran PG.
Truth-Serum
November 22nd, 2009
7:13 pm
Teague minutes per game average is 9.4.
Clyde
November 22nd, 2009
7:19 pm
Ken Strickland and Granddad for Bloggers Of the Year