A fresh start
I know you didn't see enough of rookie point guard Jeff Teague against Portland. Who wants to be their lunch money that he plays big minutes against Sacramento tonight?
SACRAMENTO – Before you finish your sentence complaining about Jeff Teague not playing against Portland and Joe Johnson playing too much, chew on one thing.
What if you are not alone? What if you’re not the only fan base whose general manager, coach, star player, sixth-man and last man on the roster drive you crazy?
What, you thought you cornered the market on being ticked off?
You are not.
Our good friend Nire passed along this message earlier today (or last night or whenever, being out west throws off my equilibrium, even after all these years of covering the league):
It’s always funny to me reading Blazers fan blogs and seeing how not alone Hawks fans are in our neuroses. Blazers fans have their own Mike Bibby (Andre Miller), JJ (Brandon Roy), Josh Smith (Travis Outlaw), Marvin Williams (Martell Webster), Teague (Jerryd Bayless), Al Horford (Greg Oden), and Zaza Pachulia (Joel Przybilla). They even talk about Nate McMillan almost exactly like we talk about Mike Woodson. Seriously, it’s uncanny. I just emailed Big Ray a series of blog posts from BlazersEdge where you could just substitute in the Hawks’ player’s names and it would be a typical comment section in your blog. My favorites:
“Brandon has dribblexia”
“Oden needs to be further integrated into the offense—immediately!”
“This team has needed a defensive-minded off guard — not a floor general (i.e., Miller), midget shooting guard (i.e, Bayless), or athletically challenged off guard (i.e., Steve Blake) — so Kevin Pritchard not trading for Kirk Hinrich midway through last season is inexcusable in my opinion.”
But why be like everybody else when you can move on? This is the time for a fresh start for your team and for you as fans. The Sacramento Kings await tonight at Arco Arena. They’re a new challenge, something else to focus on.
Win another game out here and then you can really start getting crazy about what could be in this first month of the season. Either way, I’m moving on tonight. No more griping about Mo Evans seeing limited minutes against the Trail Blazers after playing so well up until that game. I’m done taking shots at Marvin because he can’t seem to find his groove.
It’s time for a fresh start (tip off is at 10 p.m., don’t be late).
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861 comments Add your comment
doc
November 9th, 2009
6:22 pm
besides ken a little slow over here right now. before it was hard to get a word in edgewise.
ken, look out kevin a is pointing out something that might send chills down your back. might have to put new stripes on the old woody.
doc
November 9th, 2009
6:26 pm
FIRST!
ninth page that is. heh heh
eat your heart out ariose, if you are out from your books at all today. where is my links serving of the day?
Ken Strickland
November 9th, 2009
6:45 pm
TRACEMAN-to answer your question, YES. Right now, we aren’t a good DEF team, but we are a good OFF team. Despite it being early in the season, we have to judge a team by what it does, not what it has the potential to do. If a student has made A’s on every previous test taken, but makes an F on this test, do you record the F on this test, or an A, based on previous tests?
You can’t get better constantly living in the past. What Bibby did for us when he got here was fantastic, and started us on our way to consecutive playoff berths. But the team that he came to in the 07-08 season has matured, as well as the players, and we’ve acquired more talent. Teams recognized what he did for the team, and now know what he can’t do and have adjusted accordingly.
Why does everyone that abjects to the idea of replacing Bibby as a starter react as though I’m advocating we get rid of him? What he does for the team as a starter, he can continue doing from the bench. When we played Denver, they concentrated on attacking Bibby whenever he was in the gm because they knew he was our weakest link defensively, as does the entire NBA.
We don’t have a dominant BIG like DHOWARD, KGARNETT OR TDUNCAN, nor do we have a superstar like DWADE, KOBE, LEBRON OR PPIERCE etc. Therefore, we have to rely more on the team concept and take advantage of our abundance of speed, quickness, athleticism, versatility and depth. BIBBY HAS NONE OF THOSE ATTRIBUTES, THEREFORE HE LIMITS THE OVERALL OFF/DEF POTENTIAL OF OUR STARTING LINEUP. Since JJ is our only starter with one on one skills, and our other starters all have limited individual OFF skills, we need a starting PG that can help create easy scoring opportunities for them, and BIBBY DOESN’T DO THAT.
We need a PG with enough speed, quickness, lateral movement and aggressiveness to:
(1)pressure the ball and provide more protection for our frontline by making it more difficult for the opposition to make entry passes into the post.
(2)display enough speed, quickness and lateral movement to defend the quicker PG’s and prevent JJ from having to do so.
(3)have enough speed, quickness and lateral movement to make it more difficult for opposing PG’s to breakdown our DEF and attack our frontline.
(4)add more versatility to our OFF, and reduce our dependency on shooting longrange jumpers, by being able to penetrate and create easy scoring opportunities for others.
(5)create a consistent enough concern for the DEF to limit the double/triple teams on JJ.
(6)have the speed and quickness to get ahead of a teams’ transition DEF, after a missed shot, and going coast to coast if necessary.
(7)fight over picks and maintain position in front of the ball(PG) and eliminate the need to switch on every pick and roll, as well as subsequent mismatches.
BIBBY CAN DO NONE OF THESE THINGS, AND TO CONTINUE STARTING HIM WILL CONTINUE TO PENALIZE OUR STARTING TEAM.
KevinA
November 9th, 2009
7:02 pm
Ken,
I normally don’t do this much so don’t bite my head off. If Bibby is going to get his 20 min Don’t you think he works better with JJ? Because of his lack of mobility he fits with the first unit better? ZaZa, Evans and Joe Smith need a Crawford/Teague to break down the defenses and deliver the good pass.
If Bibby can’t be effective with the first unit why would you think he would be better with the second. I think we agree with one thing for sure. 15-20 minutes for Bibby is much better than 30-35. Bibby can be a deadly assassin in small stretches and should be used that way.
Ken Strickland
November 9th, 2009
7:06 pm
KEVANA-don’t lose sight of my focus, which is CONSISTENCY. I’m not being critical of Woodson because he hasn’t done the things I’ve been criticizing him for, but that he hasn’t done them consistently. Yes, he’s played Teague more the last 2 gms and Bibby less, but that certainly hasn’t been the case on a CONSISTENT basis. I’m factoring in the NNP(Portland) and the 5:25mins(Sacramento) he played in consecutive gms in which we really needed his talents. I JUST WANT HIM TO DO THE POSITIVE THINGS HE’S DONE BEFORE ON A CONSISTENT BASIS, THAT’S ALL. If he does that, I’ll become his one of his biggest fans once again.
KevinA
November 9th, 2009
7:21 pm
Ken,
To me the one thing Woody has always done is play his best players to much. Crawford and JT have played so well I think he is confused and dosen’t know what to do. I like the idea he is willing to find out a little more. Al and Josh are playing better so they are getting a few more touches. I think this is also part of this is Woody’s coaching.
We may want it to happen faster but Woody seems to be trending towards a bigger rotation and a more balanced attack.
On defense we only have one guard who is really good and we seem to be playing three guards more. We may have to become an offensive team to compensate. Another trend.
KevinA
November 9th, 2009
7:25 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7XSwDOKqAM
Couple of fun dunks.
Ken Strickland
November 9th, 2009
9:11 pm
KEVINA-Bibby is a scorer, an absolute assassin in the clutch, and I like him more with Crawford. Crawford’s size, quick penetrating ability and PG skill allows Bibby to play the 2, or off the ball. To me, that’s when he’s most dangerous. I like Teague with JJ. JJ is the most likely player to get doubled, which would put Teague in a 4 on 3 situation, and no team could handle his speed and quickness in a 4 on 3 situation.
I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but the lineup that’s been so effective down the stretch has featured JJ at SF, Bibby at SG and Crawford at PG. JJ and Crawford attack the basket and Bibby, the assassin, waits on the perimeter to do his long range thing. Remember, some of the same people that can’t bring themselves to accept the idea of Bibby not starting are some of the same ones that couldn’t accept us trading for Crawford and not resigning Flip. Look at how that’s turned out.
As far as our DEF, we can use our OFF to compenstate as long as we can turn it up on DEF in the 4th qtr, when it counts most.
KevinA
November 9th, 2009
10:39 pm
So you want JJ to come off the bench?
doc
November 9th, 2009
11:56 pm
well samuel, nash went off for 21 points and 20 assists tonight against philly, a plus 19 in a 4 point victory. yup, washed up just as you called it. jst a few weeks ago.
Mike is back
November 10th, 2009
8:48 am
Well I know itS late made it to page nine…but I was at the Nuggets game too….Smoove is making a lot of his detractor nervous right about now…CROW ANYONE…CRAWFORD DAZZLE THE CROWD WITH HIS SILKY SMOOTH MOOOOOOOOOOOOOVES!!!!
GREAT WIN…GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ken Strickland
November 10th, 2009
9:38 am
KEVINA-I assume you were addressing me when you stated “SO YOU WANT JJ TO COME OFF THE BENCH”. I would like to see JJ and Teague start, with Bibby and Crawford coming off the bench. That way, you have 2 combinations of solid penetrator and deadly shooter. The way things are now, with Bibby and JJ starting, we have our 2 best shooting guards starting and our 2 best penetrators on the bench. I call that duplication, and to me that’s not the most effective way to utilize their combination of talents.
As a team and as fans, we should want more from our team than to just win regular season gms. The Cavaliers won more regular season gms than any team in the NBA, and still got embarrassed in the playoffs because they didn’t address their major weakness, and they still haven’t. We can continue winning gms, and maybe even improve on last yrs win total, but we aren’t going to become a better playoff team if we don’t improve our starting PG play, both offensively and defensively. With Bibby starting, our starting lineup will continue to depend primarily on jumpshooting. If we’re not hitting our longrange jumpers, we get exactly what we got in Charlotte, a butt kicking.
Has anyone else noticed that so far, Crawford has been more effective coming off the bench than he’s been in the past as a starter? We’ve seen Bibby’s mins reduced from the low to mid 30MPG to the low 20MPG, with little effect on his overall production.
No matter how logical any of our suggestions and opinions might be, we all know Woodson is going to start Bibby as long as he’s physically able to play, no matter what the consequences.
KevinA
November 10th, 2009
10:52 am
Ken,
I am not sure if JT is seasoned enough to start but we will know after a few more games. It will be interesting to see how he handles guards like Rondo on offense and offense. One thing for sure, Jamal has opened up the door for many new player combinations.
I hope JT is mature enough or can mature fast enough to win more minutes from Woody. Ya just got to love the speed and driving ability. Doc mentioned playing under control and playing within oneself for a major team goal. This will be the biggest test for Teague. The second biggest test will be shooting with little time left on the clock. Can he shoot a decent percentage while under the gun.
No matter how logical any of our suggestions and opinions might be, we all know Woodson is going to start Bibby as long as he’s physically able to play, no matter what the consequences.
Since were couch coaching, I don’t mind Bibby starting but would like to see much shorter rotations for him and let JT play as much as possible. We have over 70 games to figure out the best rotations for the playoffs .
Traceman
November 10th, 2009
11:42 am
Ken,
We have a lot of wins and we have scored a lot of points against teams that like to put up quick shots (WAS, IND, SAC, DEN). This team has had offensive success over the last few years playing teams who play like that. POR is the only somewhat defense-minded team we have beaten thus far. Look for the offensive explosion to continue versus NY on Wednesday but I will be shocked if we come close to our PPG average versus BOS. Bottom line, our offensive and defensive stats have just as much to do with who we’ve played at this early stage of the season as anything else. When we get into to the meat of our EC schedule, I look for our PPG to go down significantly and for our opponents PPG to go down significantly as well.
Also, I appreciate that it is your OPINION that Bibby and JJ starting in the backcourt is problematic but that simply is NOT the case. The reality is that JJ and Bibby play very well together and this is CLEARLY reflected when you look at +/- stats.
We are a stellar plus 46 in the 158 minutes those 2 guys have been on the court together this season. Conversely, JJ and Teague are minus 5 in the 13 minutes they have been on the court together. Granted, that is a VERY small sample size (for JJ and Teague) but when combined with the fact that JJ and Bibby have been so great together, it certainly does not support your opinion that JJ and Teague would be a better combo than JJ and Bibby.
To go even further with the +/- stats analysis, as of today, JJ and Bibby make up the #4 ranked PG/SG combo (and the #28 ranked combo overall) in the entire NBA when it comes to +/-. The only PG/SG combos that have been better so far are Rondo and Allen, Kidd and Terry, and the the surprising Brandon Jennings and Charlie Bell.
When looking at Bibby and Teague specifically, Bibby’s Roland Rating of +5.2 is only slightly higher than Crawford’s +5.5 and it is HIGHER than JJ’s +3.1. Teague’s Roland Rating currently sits at -0.1. Again, it’s early but Bibby is playing better.
You said: “When we played Denver, they concentrated on attacking Bibby whenever he was in the gm because they knew he was our weakest link defensively, as does the entire NBA.” That is true. They DID attack Bibby. But what did it get them? We were a whopping +22 in Bibby’s 20 minutes on the floor. Conversely, we were +5 in Teague’s 16 minutes on the floor. Teague wasn’t bad but we were CLEARLY better with Bibby on the floor.
All of the things that you say our STARTING PG needs to do can be done by Teague off the bench. He doesn’t have to start to accomplish ANY of those things. What he DOES have to do however, is to prove that he can be this great defender you describe. He is FAR from being that guy at this point (as are most rookie PGs). All of Teague’s speed and quickness certainly didn’t prevent Lawson from getting to the basket against us vs DEN.
Of the 7 things you listed that our starting PG needs to be able to do, the jury is still out on whether Teague can accomplish 1, 2, 3, 5 or 7. He has proven that he can do 4 and 6 but again, he can do those things off the bench.
If we make any changes to the starting lineup (I wouldn’t even consider it because what we are doing is clearly working), it is CLEAR that change should be starting Crawford in lieu of Marvin. The lineup of Bibby, Crawford, JJ, Smoove and Horford has been our best lineup BY FAR.
You stated earlier that “Crawford and Teague” are making things easier for JJ but Teague has little, if ANYTHING to do with any improved play that JJ may be demonstrating. As stated above, Teague and JJ have only been on the court together for 13 minutes ALL SEASON and in those 13 minutes, they have not done all that well. Meanwhile, Crawford and JJ have done very well in their 108 minutes on the court together.
The reality is that JJ is going to handle the ball a LOT when he is in the game and Bibby is VERY effective playing without the ball. Teague appears to be more effective with the ball in his hands and as such, he will likely do better with the 2nd unit. As I said eariler, a MUCH stronger case can be made to start Crawford at this point than Teague but if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
Bottom line, I see Teague as our PG of the future but there is NO reason to START him over Bibby at this point. You don’t bench your veteran starting PG at the beginning of the season based on flashes of potential you have seen from a rookie WHEN THE TEAM IS WINNING. Why screw with chemistry that is working? Let the rookie EARN his PT and hopefully the starting position at some point down the road. As things stand now, Teague can provide the necessary change of pace at PG and fill in when Bibby is having an off night.
KevinA
November 10th, 2009
12:16 pm
Traceman ,
Exellent post with good detail.
KevinA
November 10th, 2009
12:24 pm
The lineup of Bibby, Crawford, JJ, Smoove and Horford has been our best lineup BY FAR.
Great lineup for the last 6 min of a game. I do think it is important to give Marvin and Evans the bulk of the minutes at the #3 spot. To do otherwise would shorten our rotation and we would get tired.
doc
November 10th, 2009
12:37 pm
traceman, good post. only want to point out the suns took it to boston IN boston and beat em up and scored points. i hope we dont challenge it to find out if we are capable of this against the best before we let THEM dictate what we do.
D ole Hoops Coach
November 10th, 2009
12:39 pm
Ken: I rarely post here-first time this year-but I have checked out the blog since Sekou was around. As someone who has been around this game a long time, I will tell you what any Coach will tell you about Point Guards. Job #1 is to take care of the ball. Bibby is one of the best around when it comes to assists vs. turnovers. The other players respect his leadership on the floor. He and JJ have obvious chemistry. Add his ability to stretch the floor with his shooting, especially late in the game, and you have the key reason the Hawks turned things around when he arrived.
Teague’s time will come. He is incredibly athletically gifted, however, he is still very much in learning mode. He needs to improve his shooting range to fit in better with the first unit. He is not ready at the moment to be the Point Guard on a contender.
doc
November 10th, 2009
1:31 pm
traceman says:
The lineup of Bibby, Crawford, JJ, Smoove and Horford has been our best lineup BY FAR.
funny, when i defended the trade and the bringing of crawford here with a comment that that very line up would be huge folks jumped my case. back then it was only conjecture so how do you argue with that, you dont you just sit back and wait.
jj’s best position is at three for this team especially with jamal in the fold, it was last year with flip here by the numbers. it is in our best interest to keep jj in at two but to move him quickly to the three. i wont be surprised to see marvin moving to the four more at times and holding his own. flexibility is critical and we have it this year. finally, i want enders not starters in my discussion of what is best for our team.
JeJe
November 10th, 2009
1:35 pm
Tomorrow’s game is exactly what we need Solo for. Our bench bigs are all extremely unathletic/too slow for this game. We will need Horford and Marvin to play major minutes at the 4 and 5, in addition to Smoove, if we are to have a shot. I said this before the CHA game, but we cannot take the Knicks for granted
JeJe
November 10th, 2009
1:37 pm
It still says Sekou is the beat writer on the lower left part of AJC.com/hawks
Nice
Traceman
November 10th, 2009
1:58 pm
Doc,
I agree that we shouldn’t let the Celtics dictate what we do. The success we had against them in the playoffs 2 years ago came when we pushed the tempo and used our youth/athleticism to our advantage. I think we should still TRY to play uptempo against them and if we can somehow get a lead against them, we could force them to play at a faster pace than they would prefer. I can’t see us beating them consistently in a halfcourt battle.
I agree with you that Bibby/Crawford/JJ/Smoove/Horford finishing games is the way to go on most nights. That lineup has proven to be awfully tough to defend. There may be nights we can’t finish with that lineup because of matchups but I rally like it so far.
I also agree with you that playing Marvin more at the 4 would be a good move. Our 2nd most effective lineup with regard to +/- has been Bibby/Crawford/JJ/Marvin/Horford. The ability of that group to spread the floor with all those great shooters has proven to be quite effective. Almost impossible to double JJ with that group on the floor because it will inevitably lead to a really good shooter getting a wide open look.
mountain_jim
November 10th, 2009
2:05 pm
Hello AJC? Anybody home? Is someone in charge of the Sports Department anymore? There has been no mention that I know of from AJC concerning Sekou’s status or possible replacement, if there will be one…
doc
November 10th, 2009
2:07 pm
trace, love the stats man used to spend time looking that stuff up but little time now. great contributions!
again i have long seen marvin becoming a poor mans sheed for a lack of a better word for it or a more powerful player than harrington. he has length, range, moves and speed to make it difficult to man up to him consistently at four and also some strength to man up to their guy. remember he has done well for himself against none other than lebron at times a 3 that is really a 4 in size. sometimes folks nit pick and go after the minor things and forget to see the positives in our players expecting all of them to be top five at their positions. you know it is not going to happen and to expect it is just flat out CRAZY. even though i dont champion marvin as the ender all the time i appreciate what he brings to the table or court.
incidentally today ….you brought it to the liars table. cudos man!
Rod from College Park
November 10th, 2009
3:05 pm
Doc,
I will agree with you concerning that lineup. I mentioned in the blog during the summer that eventually Crawford will be a starter, and it should probably be Joe to the three and Marvin to the bench. A couple of people said I was crazy, that we would be terrible defensively, but I think I was correct. Jamal is the best pure scorer on this team, and stating him will prevent the huge deficits we get in at the start of games. Besides the Denver game, Marvin has given us as close to nothing at the beginning of games, defensively or offensively. Also if you look at matching up with teams in the east, Bibby (Teague), Jamal, and Joe, match up better with Rondo, Allen, Pierce, or Williams, West and Lebron or even Orlando. While I do think Marvin can Play the 4 against some small lineups, he has no chance in the post against strong low post players at the 4 such as Garnett, Aldridge, Boozer, Bass, Duncan, Wallace, Stodamire…… He is too weak and clumsy. I personally would like to see us look to trade him straight up for Stephen Jackson. Would make our team much tougher, and would actually give us a vocal leader on the floor. I don’t think Jackson would be intimidated by Joe Johnson at all. Don’t know how the contract stuff would work, but I think a trade like that would put us in the top 2 in the east.
doc
November 10th, 2009
4:04 pm
rod, some good thoughts there guy except for jackson. not going to argue marvin and say it from the perspective of him growing to that size eventually. i just dont see jackson as bringing much to the table that we dont already have especially if you send marvin packing. though he may be clumsy to you he brings a bit of heft with him that we are lacking in so many other areas. time distribution would be challenging as would shot distribution. not enough balls on the court for jj jamal and jackson.
you may be inclined to permanently move jj to three but i doubt he is ready for that either as well. sj also has had a difficult time playing for winners, i know same problem as crawford but seems the two go about their work differently.
i also am not interested in having someone that wont back down to jj as much as blend with him to make it a more cohesive team. i think we can get there or close with what we have now. if we need a sj guy go and get stackhouse without a trade only up the payroll a bit.
Traceman
November 10th, 2009
4:06 pm
Rod, I agreed with you until you suggested we trade Marvin for Jax. I wouldn’t trade Mo for Jax. Why on earth would we want Jax here?
You call what he is doing in GS “leadership?” I can’t imagine anyone being a WORSE leader. When Nellie named him as team captain he talked about how honored he was and how seriously he took the role. Less than a year later, he has completely distanced himself from the team saying that he doesn’t feel like he is a part of the team.
He is demanding to be traded but of course he only wants to be traded where HE wants to go. When CHA showed interest, he made it clear that he didn’t want to play there and that he would try to block any attempt they made to trade for him. He wants to play in CLE with LeBron. Well heck, who DOESN’T want to play with LeBron? I’m sure most of the players in the NBA would LOVE to play with LeBron.
Jax is nothing but a 31 year old malcontent who always seems to find trouble. He is fine as long as things are good but when a little adversity comes his way, he can’t handle it. He plays hard MOST of the time but the only real success he’s had came when he rode the backs of Duncan, Robinson and Parker to the title in 02-03. You think it was a coincidence that SA let him walk after that season rather than resign him? You think it was a coincidence that he only lasted a year here? He is a cancer.
As for Marvin, just because he’s had a slow start doesn’t mean I don’t think he is extremely valuable to this team. I think we need Marvin quite a bit and he will prove to be a big part of what we do going forward. Over the last two years, he has defended guys like Pierce, LeBron and Carmelo well and we are going to need for him to continue doing that.
Actually, Marvin hasn’t been THAT bad this year. Crawford, Horford, Smoove and JJ have just been THAT good. Bibby and Marvin have sacrificed shots (and minutes) so far this year and that is not necessarily a bad thing. Crawford is such a great offensive player that it was CLEAR that someone was going to sacrifice their games a little. I am just pleased that both Bibby and Marvin are doing so without so much as a peep. You think Jax would be content being the 4th option behind JJ, Crawford and Smoove? I’d just as soon call JR Rider out of retirement.
Mel
November 10th, 2009
4:19 pm
I miss Sekou…
Ken Strickland
November 10th, 2009
4:19 pm
Like I said in my last post, all of these discussions about who should start is moot since Teague will not start as long as Woodson is the HC and Bibby is on the team and healthy.
Some of you are really bending over backwards in support of Bibby, and to make it appear Teague isn’t ready to start.
KEVINA-Why suggest we wait to see how Teague handles himself against elite PG’s like Rhondo, when you already know JJ is usually assigned to guard them because Bibby has already demonstrated he’s totally incapable of doing so. YOU WANT HIM TO REMAIN THE STARTER BECAUSE TEAGUE SUPPOSEDLY HASN’T PROVEN HE CAN DO SOMETHING BIBBY HAS PROVEN HE CAN’T DO BEYOND ANY REASONABLE DOUBT. YOU’RE REACHING FOR EXCUSES AND USING A DOUBLE STANDARD TO DO SO.
D OLE HOOP COACH-Welcome to the forum. Stretching the floor isn’t our problem. If fact, DEF’s usually come out and press us, as well as doubling JJ, which is why we usually end up on the perimeter pounding the ball and taking desperation shots trying to beat the clock. We need a PG that can attack the DEF and collapse it.
When your OFF is primarily a jumpshooting OFF, you allow the defenders to get excellent rebounding position when you shoot. That’s why even with our frontlines speed, quickness and athleticism, we don’t do well getting OFF rebounds. When your PG penetrates, it forces the DEF to collapse and defend the lane. Penetrating not only creates additional scoring options for our frontline, if the PG shoots, it allows them to get better OFF rebounding position, since their frontline will be concentrating on stopping the ball rather than getting rebounding position.
Bibby does do a good job of protecting the ball and eliminating turnovers. But when a PG spends almost all of his time on OFF at or near the 3pt line, doesn’t penetrate or create easy scoring opportunities by making interior passes to his frontline players, wouldn’t you expect a low turnover rate? Low risk, low turnovers, low reward.
TRACEMAN-you are really trying hard to justify your support for Bibby as our starting PG, and using a double stardard to do so. To justify your position you made the following statement: “OF THE 7 THINGS YOU LISTED THAT OUR STARTING PG NEEDS TO BE ABLE TO DO, THE JURY IS STILL OUT ON WHETHER TEAGUE CAN ACCOMPLISH 1,2,3,5 OR 7. HE HAS PROVEN HE CAN DO 4 AND 6 BUT AGAIN, HE CAN DO THOSE THINGS OFF THE BENCH”.
I want you to answer the following questions.
(1)IS THEIR ANY DOUBT ABOUT MIKE BIBBY’S INABILITY TO DO 1 THRU 7?
(2)CAN’T BIBBY DO WHAT HE DOES BEST OFF THE BENCH AS WELL?
A CHAIN IS NO STRONGER THAN ITS WEAKEST LINK, AND BIBBY IS OUR STARTING LINEUPS WEAKEST LINK. The most disturbing thing to me is the number of people that have bashed Marvin, JJ, Horford and Smoove, and suggested trading them to make the team better, but not Bibby. All of our starters, except Bibby, are able to contribute something on both OFF and DEF, other than shooting longrange jumpers.
TRACEMAN-the fact that Bibby and JJ play well together doesn’t change the fact that Bibby is a jumpshooter that can’t breakdown DEF’s with his penetration, is useless if he’s not hitting his jumper, doesn’t create easy scoring opportunities for his teammates, and can’t guard elite PG’s, which puts added pressure on JJ to do so.
bigdave
November 10th, 2009
4:43 pm
ESPN had a “future” power ranking today as apart of there “insider” package. here is an excerpt from a chat wrap where fans were able to chime in… my question is when is Hollinger and co. going to get off the ownership issue… if the ASG havent shown our fan base they are willing to spend then i dont know what they have to do? geesh… find another relevant argument besides, not knowing how the ownership situation will unfold, and their willingness to spend… this cat just refuses to like the Hawks…
1:40
[Comment From GMGM: ]
What about the Hawks future? Will we ever contend for a title in Hotlanta. It’s been 50 sumthing yrs already.
Tuesday November 10, 2009 1:40 GM
1:42
John Hollinger:
Bob Pettit is not walking through that door!! Sorry, got carried away … the Hawks’ big problem is the lack of star power, which is why they only ranked 12th on players despite having a lot of quality young guys. That’s going to limit their ability to get deeper in the playoffs as well, especialy since questions remain about how much management is willing to spend.
doc
November 10th, 2009
4:58 pm
trace: “I’d just as soon call JR Rider out of retirement.”
heh heh
Rod from College Park
November 10th, 2009
5:16 pm
Doc and Traceman,
We agree to disagree. I think sometimes people get caught up in what they see or read or hear and make judgemnts on players based on that. Steven Jackson is obviously doing these things to get out of Golden State. When you are a competitor, and you are put in a situation where losing is supposed to be acceptable, you will do whatever you have to do to escape. While we all think that money is the end all be all, I personally respect players who don’t want to lose. The off the field things don’t bother me, so please don’t bring those up. I would have gone in the stands in Detroit just like he did. If someone poses a threat to me in these streets, I would also not be afraid to use my gun. Traceman, you state he was a cancer in Atlanta, I don’t seem to remember that. He was the best player on the team averaging 18ppg and 4.5 rpg while shooting 34% from the three point line, and he stayed out of trouble. Better year than Marvin has ever had. I also seem to remember him being one of the key cogs on that Indiana team as well as Golden State when they made that run in the playoffs. I think one key thing that a lot of people miss about Marvin is that he poses no offensive threat. Any 3 who is aggresive playing that position on our team should be one of the top scorers on the team, because of the design of the offense. We hear Dominique every game say we need Marvin to step up. You know why? Because the offense we run leaves Marvin Williams wide open on the wing behind the three point line, and a serious scoring threat from that position would make us a serious contender this year. You are going to tell me that Stephen Jackson standing in the corner wide open behind the three point line with teams trying to recover to him is not a better option than Marvin. Please!!!!!! I think my primary difference with most of you is that I want to win NOW. I don’t care about 3 years down the line. I have a Lakers, Yankee mentality. I am sick of Atlanta teams being up and coming, and the next big thing. It never pans out. We are in a position, with one or two moves to be able to compete for a championship NOW. We can’t afford to wait 5 more years for this guy to show that he is an above average player. With Joe possibly leaving next year, it is important to protect ourselves.
Ramon
November 10th, 2009
5:25 pm
Am I the only one who sees a common trait in Atlanta, to always trade or sign for teams 3rd or 4th best player, to come here and be the number one option? Did this not happen with JJ, Harrington, Shareef, and Isaiah? I’m not against the Hawks doing whatever they can to bring in a superstar any more who is a top 5 player. That’s why I think Sund shook look into acquiring Chris Paul.
Rod from College Park
November 10th, 2009
5:28 pm
Traceman,
Marvin actually has been that bad this year. He left way to many points out there, and has not played a lick of defense, except for the Denver game. He also has not been aggresive at all, which is what the team and coach wants him to do. I personally don’t think he is a good defensive player at all, but for those that do, his defense has not been good at all this year. He has also been relegated to the bench at the end of games, which is something that I am sure was not expected at the beginning of the year.
Rod doesn't like Marvin?
November 10th, 2009
6:26 pm
Is anyone else here as shocked as I am?
Jonathan
November 10th, 2009
6:52 pm
While Rod from cp does harp on the Marvin issue too much, he does also raise valid points. Marvin has been a liability instead of an asset this year. If we really plan to contend this year, either he needs to step his game up, or we need to make a move (trade or bench). With all the open looks he gets, he should be scoring a lot more.
Ken Strickland
November 10th, 2009
6:55 pm
TRACEMAN-you used the ROLAND RATINGS to statistically make your point about Bibby vs Teague. Well, here are some stats that make an even stronger point in support of mine.
MINS PTS AST A/TO
BIBBY 27.9 9.1 3.7 2.89
TEAGUE 13.5 4.5 2.8 5.67
Playing half as many MPG, and that includes a DNP in one gm and only 5.25mins in another, Teague has put up numbers that are comparable to Bibby’s in some instances and superior in others. Take a long look at the slight .9 difference in APG Bibby has over Teague while playing half as many mins. For those of you who insist on saying Bibby’s protects the ball and has a low assist to turnover rate, take a look at Teagues A/TO ratio, which is twice as good as Bibby’s. And that’s very impressive since he consistently takes it to the basket and makes interior passes to create easy scoring opportunities for other players. His PPG is half that of Bibby’s, but playing Bibby’s 27.9 MPG, especially playing his of attacking, penetrating the lane style of ball, would give him more scoring, assist and FT opportunities, which would easily increase his PPG.
I’m a diehard fan of the Atlanta Hawks team far more than any particular Atlanta Hawks player. That allows me to take an objective view of Bibby’s assets, liabilities and overall contribution to the team as a starter and reach an unbiased determination. The same goes for Teague, or any other Hawk player. Being primarily a fan of a particular player creates a biased position and prevents you from even giving token consideration and/or acknowledgement to Bibby’s liabilities, while embellishing his few physical attributes, and his intangibles.
Traceman
November 10th, 2009
7:07 pm
Rod,
If I can’t make judgements about someone based on what I read, see or hear, what I am supposed to use in order to make those judgements? I saw Jax when he was here both on and off the court. Let’s just say that he was no angel and leave it at that.
Your support of Jax is downright hilarious. If he was so concerned about winning, why did he sign the extension and put himself “in a situation where losing is supposed to be acceptable” in the first place! He could have been an unrestricted FA and signed with the Lakers for the MLE. Instead, HE TOOK THE MONEY.
You say that you “personally respect players who don’t want to lose.” So do I and I would say that 90% of all NBA players fall into the category of players who dont want to lose. The difference between Jax and those players is that the vast majority of them maintain their professionalism and don’t act like jacka$$es when they are put into losing situations.
Saying that you would have gone into the stands like he did in DET is one thing but following that up with the statement: “If someone poses a threat to me in these streets, I would also not be afraid to use my gun” is hilarious. How can you POSSIBLY equate Jax going into the stands AT AN NBA BASKETBALL GAME with someone posing a threat to you (or him) in the streets? Jax was not about to get jacked, he was in an NBA arena in the middle of a basketball game!
As for Jax’s stats when he was here, count me as unimpressed. I feel pretty confident that Marvin could get me 18 ppg and 4.5 rbg while shooting 34% from the 3 pt line while playing with the likes of JT, Bob Sura, Chris Crawford, Jason Collier, Zeljko Rebraca, Alan Henderson, Wes Person, Mamadou N’diaye, Jacque Vaughn, Travis Hansen and rookie Boris Diaw. How that team won 28 games (6 of it’s last 10 to blow a slot at a better lotery pick) is beyond me.
He was a “key cog” in both IND and GS alright, a key cog in the troublemaker/malcontent machine. If there was trouble or negativity around, Jax might not start it but he would dang sure get involved in it.
When he was here, he was on his best behavior (and he was no angel)because he was playing on a one year deal and he was hoping we would resign him. The reason he was playing on a one year deal in the first place was because no one wanted a part of his act. He was on his best behavior in GS too…until they gave him that extension.
Jax is not the great 3 point shooter you make him out to be. He’s streaky and always has been. He shot better than the .355 percent that Marvin shot from 3 last year TWICE in his 11 year career (.360 his first year in IND and .363 his first year in GS).
You talk about wanting to win now. Jax couldn’t get GS or IND over the top in his prime, why do you think a 31 year old Jax (who is under contract until he is 34) is going to help get us over the top?
Protecting ourselves? By getting Jax, we would be KILLING ourselves. Pretty soon, he would have our very close knit locker room divided. No thanks. Getting Jax and then watching JJ leave would be worse than losing Mookie and Smitty and bringing in Rider.
Traceman
November 10th, 2009
7:26 pm
Ken,
While I appreciate the contributions that Bibby has made to the team, I certainly wouldn’t classify myself as a “Bibby fan.” We all have our favorites and if I ranked them, he probably wouldn’t be in my top 5.
That said, I am a fan of the TEAM as well and there is no question that we are better with him on the floor than we are when he is not on the floor. FAR better. The stats don’t lie.
You claim to be objective and that you can reach an unbiased determination with regard to Bibby but I don’t see that at all. The team has CLEARLY been more successful with Bibby on the floor than with Teague and the stats back it up.
Man, I LOVE watching Teage play and I look forward to seeing him for a long time to come. It certainly won’t hurt my feelings if he out plays Bibby and becomes the starting PG this year. That would likely mean that he is REALLY good as I don’t see Bibby falling off THAT much over the next couple of years. Until Teague actually has more of a positive impact on winning and losing than Bibby does though, I’ll ride with ‘ol Team Dime in the starting lineup.
Blast
November 10th, 2009
7:42 pm
Stephen Jackson??????? Get the hell outtahere!!!!!
Jax = Allen Iverson.
Damaged goods, both of them. Hawks are building a high character team. We don’t need selfish, malcontent players here.
How long we gonna go on with this Teague starting over Bibby talk? We all know it’s not gonna happen so long as Bibby can play. Why we keep harping over stuff that is beyond our control? Are we really that bored?
Can’t believe Sekou dipped on us without a goodbye. Is he really gone just like that?
Can’t believe it’s been three days since the Hawks last played. Tomorrow can’t come soon enough. I’m a basketball junkie! I need my Fix!
Go Hawks.
Clyde
November 10th, 2009
7:45 pm
Man the blog is up to 9 pages. Give up the Big Play Ray need to post a new one or something.
FIRE WOODY
Clyde
November 10th, 2009
7:46 pm
Stephen Jackson would be the second leading scorer if he was on the Hawks.
Leading scorer
November 10th, 2009
8:05 pm
He’s also the second leading scorer on this year’s Warriors.
Iverson was the second-leading scorer for the Pistons.
Isiah Rider was the leading scorer for the Hawks.
So was Stephen Jackson.
Fat lotta good that did.
KevinA
November 10th, 2009
8:41 pm
Sekou Leaving,
Many big companies have you clear your desk the day you tell them your leaving. I guessing Sekou left without having the opportunity for the farewell blog he promised.
Blast
November 10th, 2009
8:53 pm
Sekou should have put that farewell blog up just before he quitted!
correcto
November 10th, 2009
9:02 pm
Enter your comments here
KevinA
November 10th, 2009
9:11 pm
Blast,
Thats just asking for trouble. In the meantime the the nest is great. Also try hawksdawgs at peach tree hoops.
Ken Strickland
November 10th, 2009
9:13 pm
TRACEMAN-I don’t know how you, or anyone else, can say the team performs better with Bibby in the gm than Teague. 19:48mins is Bibby’s lowest MPG played and 20:03mins is Teagues highest MPG played. Bibby has started every gm while Teague has had one DNP and a 5:25min stint.
That disparity makes your statement about as subjective an opinion as one can be. Teague’s mins and playing opportunities have been very inconsistent, yet his numbers are as good, and in certain important areas, superior to Bibby’s based on the disparity in MPG. When you can accumulate 2.8APG while averaging 13.5 inconsistent MPG, compared to Bibby’s 3.7APG while playing 27.9 consistent MPG, demonstrates his superior ability to create easy scoring opportunities for his teammates.
Teague’s penetration and dish ability alone increases our OFF versatility and the overall OFF effectiveness of our frontline players. Now, don’t you think that’s more beneficial to the overall OFF than having a PG that’s primariy limited to shooting 3’s?
hawks
November 10th, 2009
9:14 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcwaDYc1IWY&feature=related
Sautee
November 10th, 2009
9:20 pm
Traceman,
Keep talkin’ sense. Some of us are listening.