I’ll agree to disagree. I clearly added IMHO, meaning exactly that. I’m sorry if my opinion makes you doubt your side of the argument or threatens you in some way. Frankly, I’m surprised. You usually allow plenty of give-and-take, but somehow I’ve pushed your hot button.

Before Bibby got here we lost WAY too many games with late turnovers that gave opponents extra chances to score. That was the MOST notable difference when he arrived.

The reason I used A / TO ratio is that it shows a point guards’ efficiency. I TOTALLY agree that some of Bibby’s efficiency is because he takes fewer chances. I’d say that up til now that’s EXACTLY what a young team needed.
And Bibby WILL have to rachet it up a notch JUST BECAUSE TEAGUE WILL PUSH HIM.

If Teague shows that he has the talents to play like CP3 and Deron, ok fine start him. But there is a reason that he wasn’t a top 5 pick like they were.

Don’t get me wrong, Ken, I LOVE what I’ve seen of this kid, but I’ll stand by my statement. I don’t care if you think my argument is weak. I can handle that.

By the way, my use of the ratio was not the be-all-end-all of my point (which you made it out to be). I wasn’t defending the use of Bibby relative to ANY PG, just for THIS team, which is all we have to deal with. Therefore, despite the obvious fact that I’d rank Bibby behind at LEAST a dozen other point guards, his ratio shows that on THIS team, he takes care of the ball better than others that we have.

We can disagree. But I’ll err on the side of FEWER turnovers every time.

MPG APG TOPG TOP48mins AST/TO ratio

MBIBBY 34.6 5.0 1.6 2.2 3.06

DWILLIAMS 36.8 10.7 3.4 4.4 3.18

CPAUL 38.5 11.0 3.0 3.7 3.73

TPARKER 34.1 6.9 2.6 3.6 2.67

CBILLUPS 35.5 6.4 2.2 3.0 2.86

SNASH 33.6 9.7 3.4 4.8 2.89

The fact that Bibby has such a low TOPG is reflected in his low assist rate compared to the others. That’s because he takes very few chances and doesn’t create many scoring opportunities for others. You made the following statements: “DEPENDS TOTALLY ON HOW MANY TURNOVERS TEAGUE WERE TO MAKE VS BIBBY”, and “ALL OF THAT TO SAY THAT UNLESS TEAGUE CAN PLAY AT OR NEAR BIBBY’S A/TO RATIO, WE’RE LIKELY BETTER OFF WITH HIM COMING OFF THE BENCH, IMHO”. Well, since every player on this list has considerably more TO’s than Bibby, are you saying you’d start him ahead of all of them? Or, since both CPaul and DWilliams have higher A/TO ratios than Bibby, are you saying a team would be better off starting Bibby ahead of either of them as well?

LIKE I SAID, YOUR ARGUMENT IS EXTREMELY WEAK AT BEST.

You said: “Don’t you think limiting turnovers is an extremely thin reason for not replacing him in the starting lineup with Teague? ”

Depends TOTALLY on HOW many TOs Teague were to make vs. Bibby.

Here’s what I said:

“All of that to say that unless Teague can play at or near Bibby’s A / TO ratio, we’re likely better off with him coming of the bench, IMHO.”

MEANING that IF Teague can play at or near Bibby’s A / TO ratio then I’m ok with him starting.

Any less, and I think he’s be better off the bench. And I ALSO added IMHO.

IT’S NOT WE HAVE TO CUT BIBBY OR GIVE UP THE POSITIVES HE BRINGS TO THE TEAM IF WE START TEAGUE. WHAT’S THE PROBLEM?

So far, Teague has measured up and/or passed every test presented to him so far, yet certain fans want to create imaginary or extremely weak excuses for not starting him. I love Bibby and how he’s managed to remain productive despite his many limitations, but this team can’t move forward if they have to continue making so many sacrifices to accomodate his limitations. He was exactly what we needed when he arrived a yr and a half ago, but it’s time for us to extend our appreciation for what he provided during that period and accept that Teague is now the new and improved Bibby of the 2008/10 season.

Bibby doesn’t stop teams from successfully doubling/tripling JJ. They are successfully using pick and rolls to take advantage of his limited speed, quickness, athleticism and lateral movement to create mismatches. It became so much of an issue Woodson had to resort to a switching DEF in order to limit the damage. As a result of the switch both the overall team and individual DEF of Horford and Smoove, our 2 best shotblockers and interior defenders, has suffered.

The Hawks aren’t going to get better, let alone get to the next level, until we stop depending on/starting an aging PG with limited speed, quickness, penetrating ability and DEF ability. REMEMBER, A CHAIN IS NO STRONGER THAN ITS WEAKEST LINK. Isn’t it odd to see teams that were obviously better than we were last yr add new players to their starting lineup and their bench in an attempt to improve, while the Hawks are willing to improve our bench, but not our starting lineup. WHERE’S THE LOGIC?

Ray, I’ll take the poke in the eye with a grin. But who was to know Crawford would dish out 9 assists. We all look at past and comments from numbers to get a feel for what kind of a player a new addition is. I certainly had not looked at anything that would prepare me for Crawford’s performance.

I will glean a satisfaction from seeing the Hawks play great by spreading the ball around. The front court had one more attempt than the back court. 32/31 with the swing men putting up 14 shots. Great balance.

I’m SURE that you remember how much I thought Acie was under utilized last year.

That said, I see a LOT more in Teague than Acie showed. And I LOVE the idea of him being “good enough” to start.

However, even though he’s having a pretty good preseason with a decent A / TO ratio (2.27 / 1) he IS still turning it over at a rate higher than Bibby.

Last year Bibby was at 3.08 / 1.

I get your point about the way he’d make us play faster, and I agree. But if it comes with TOO many turnovers, it’ll make our D more vulnerable as often TO’s lead to fast break points for the opposition.

I also realize that to some degree you are “wishing” for him to become special (don’t we all?), but it’ll take something major for Woody to not start Bibby.

All of that to say that unless Teague can play at or near Bibby’s A / TO ratio, we’re likely better off with him coming of the bench, IMHO.

However, I still want us to resign JJ. I would also like to see us go all out next yr to try and resign JChildress. If we can pull those 2 feats off, we’d have all of the elements of a championship calibur team, assuming Woodson can handle this much talent and versatility.

I’ve been attacked in the past and called a HOMER because I saw the positives in this team and the potential from the growth of our young guns, and I was right because we’ve improved each yr as a result? I’ve also been called a HATER because I’ve consistently made an issue of the flaws in Woodson as a HC, and the fact Sund wouldn’t offer him an extention after such a successful season says a lot. I’ve recently been questioned about my belief that we’d be much better with Teague as our starting PG than Bibby, as well as the idea of ORGANIC GROWTH, or the individual improvement of our young guns, having a much greater impact of our team than adding players like Shaq, Sheed or Vince will have on the top 3 Eastern seeds.

I’m not afraid of being wrong, but I’ll be damned if I’ll back down from what I believe just because someone else can’t see what I see or is afraid of change or of making change. We’re going to be a damn good team this yr. In fact, we’re going to be the most improved team in the East because of the additions of Crawford, Teague and Joe Smith to our bench, as well as the discounted idea of ORGANIC GROWTH, which no other team in the East will be able to match.

Adding new starters to your team often means nothing more than an offset of what was lost. Can Carter and Bass replace what former starters CLee, HTurkolu and RAlston brought to the team? Even if they do, it doesn’t necessarily make them better, just not any worse. Can Shaq make Cleveland noticably better, or can he even replace what Ilgoudkas provided as a starter. I have to admit, their bench has definitely been improved. With the additions of Crawford, Teague and Joe Smith, along with our organic growth, we’ve definitely erased most, if not all, of the gap that Boston’s had over us the last 2yrs.

While I’m not convinced we’re on Cleveland’s level at this point, because of their improved bench, I definitely believe we’re on the same level with Boston and Orlando and much better than any other team in the East.

Bibby is a defensive liability, no doubt, but he DOES take care of the ball.