Hawks starters good for 20 hot minutes
HAWKSVILLE – So this is what the preseason looks like when your team is good enough to know that it means nothing.
The starters play sparingly. You don’t really care if your team wins or loses. And you get to know the free agent campers and rookies a little more than you probably want to in some cases. But until we get closer to the “real” games, this is it.
With a group of reporters in his office 90 minutes before the opening tip of Monday’s game against Charlotte at Philips Arena, Hawks coach Mike Woodson admitted as much, when asked when he was going to unleash his starters for more than 20 hot minutes (by time you finish here they should be done for the night).
“When we get to Washington (Oct. 19), Miami (Oct. 22 in Jacksonville) and Orlando (Oct. 23 in Dwightlando on ESPN),” Woodson said. “Those last three [preseason games], that’s when we’ll really start to burn these guys, because those a three teams we’re going to see.”
The Hawks are going to see all three of those teams in the Southeast Division race and in the Eastern Conference playoff chase all season long. So there’s logic behind this strategy of picking and choosing when you want to press the issue in the preseason and when you want to pull back.
As recently as last year Woodson was in winning-is-everything-even-in-the-preseason mode, to the eventual detriment of his own team (if you ask me). Guys like Joe Johnson and Josh Smith and Al Horford logged way too many minutes in the preseason last year. But Woodson insisted he was trying to teach his team how to win, even if that meant winning games that essentially meant nothing.
His mood has changed completely since then. Credit those back-to-back playoff trips, and the wisdom that comes along with them, for changing Woodson’s ways. You can credit whomever and whatever you want. Just be glad that you can watch games this time of year knowing that your team has every reason to be confident that wins and losses in October (at least early October) have no bearing on what might transpire over the next six months.
FORMER HAWKS IN THE MIX
Guys who used to wear Hawks jerseys were in the crosshairs Monday night here in Atlanta and elsewhere. Flip Murray rolled into the building with the Bobcats but didn’t play against the Hawks (something about a sore shin). Former Hawks swingman Josh Childress (below talking with my main man Branson Wright) was at the Q in Cleveland with his Olympiacos teammates, playing against LeBron and Shaq and the Cavaliers. Their replacements weren’t on the floor Monday night either. Jamal Crawford (calf) and Mo Evans (bone bruise) are still resting for the Hawks and probably will be until this time next week.
| Branson Wright talks with Josh Childress |
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243 comments Add your comment
Big Al
October 12th, 2009
7:39 pm
First?!
jerrywest
October 12th, 2009
7:49 pm
Marvin got a rebound and took the ball coast to coast for a spinning layup and the crowd roared.
Sekou Smith
October 12th, 2009
7:49 pm
There are more people at the Varsity right now than there are in here. Dang rain. You are all missing the Juan Dixon show!
jerrywest
October 12th, 2009
7:49 pm
Teague is piling up the assists tonight.
jerrywest
October 12th, 2009
7:50 pm
sekou – how was marvin’s layup. crowd was loud.
Melvin
October 12th, 2009
7:52 pm
Whew, I’m glad that JChill didn’t go to Cleveland. I think he would have fit in the Cavs nicely…
Samuel
October 12th, 2009
8:00 pm
Watching Cleveland(Bron, Shaq) vs Olympios(JChill, Baby Saq) on FoxOhio. Shaq looks slim as Hell. Anthony Parker is really gonna help Cleveland. A shooter who can play defense.
Listening to the Hawks
Eating Bryers All Natural Vanilla Ice Cream.
Have Fun Cuz.
jerrywest
October 12th, 2009
8:01 pm
zaza can dunk.
Sekou Smith
October 12th, 2009
8:08 pm
Give Shaq his Bryers back Steamboat.
Reggie (The Bird and Indian)
October 12th, 2009
8:08 pm
Are any of these preseason games on regular TV?
Samuel
October 12th, 2009
8:11 pm
Shaq just did a signature two hand bring the whole goal down slam after doing a Michael Phelps dive on a 130lb camera man.
LeBron just gave Shaq an Alley oop slam ala Kobe and Shaq. So much for clogging the lane.
Chills still got the fro. Must be auditioning for Chris Rock’s new flick. Funny as hel_
http://www.goodhairmovie.net/site/
jerrywest
October 12th, 2009
8:17 pm
Drive all night. Refs calling foul on everything this season.
Melvin
October 12th, 2009
8:21 pm
Looks like Josh is having trouble with his FTs tonite…
Samuel
October 12th, 2009
8:37 pm
I know they’re playing a bunch of Euro Punks but Cleveland really looks crisp moving the ball. It’s really commical how people say that Shaq will “CLOG THE LANE”. Really funny. Especially when the lane is what 16ft wide? Give me a break.
Samuel
October 12th, 2009
8:43 pm
It’s amazing how playing with good players can make guys look like all stars. perfect examples JChills and L Kleiza(former nuggett). They look like “Garbage” right now against the Cavs.
Anthony Parker has one of the prettiest jumpers ever.
i_am_soulstar
October 12th, 2009
8:56 pm
Did Woody make any cuts yet?
Samuel
October 12th, 2009
8:56 pm
What’s even funnier is people questioning whether Shaq would be an upgrade over Ilgauskas.
Big Ray
October 12th, 2009
9:15 pm
Turning into a Cavs fan, Samuel ?
ice cold
October 12th, 2009
9:18 pm
I thought clogging the lane is what made shaq so good. hes supposed to clog the lane dummy. thats what we are missing.
Big Ray
October 12th, 2009
9:21 pm
Well, I guess we should just hand over the championship to Lebron, since Cleveland looks so crisp against a bunch of “Euro Punks”.
Sam, you’re too much….
Big Ray
October 12th, 2009
9:23 pm
Man, Gerald Wallace always gives us fits. Who’s guarding him? Oh, nevermind…
Sekou Smith
October 12th, 2009
9:23 pm
Cuts are coming tomorrow. Probably just two players. Not sure yet who is going to see the turk.
Big Ray
October 12th, 2009
9:34 pm
Preseason or no, I’m really diggin’ Jeff Teague. Kid knows how to get to the hole, and knows how to get to the line (and what to do once he gets there). And his assist to turnover ratio currently sits at 2.67 to 1.
He won’t get this many minutes during the season, but if he’s playing like this in the minutes he DOES get, he will be a significant contributor.
ESPN
October 12th, 2009
9:35 pm
Detroit is under rated.
East
1. Celtics
2. Cavs
3. Magic
4. Detroit
5. Hawks
Detroit will pass the hawks.
Lou Dobbs
October 12th, 2009
9:45 pm
ESPN if that happens I will blame the mexicans.
niremetal
October 12th, 2009
9:50 pm
I’m with ya, Ray. One preseason game and Samuel’s already declaring Shaq a success in Cleveland? As always, I’m reserving judgment until real games are played. And yeah, I am skeptical of the Shaq trade less because I think Shaq will “clog the lane” or isn’t a better player than Ilgauskas (although really, having a 7′3 guy who can knock down 18-foot jumpers is a perfect complement to LeBron’s game) than because it leaves the Cavs with a horribly slow frontcourt on defense.
Varejao is probably the best frontcourt defender the Cavs have, but it’ll be interesting to see how many minutes he gets at C now. With Shaq as the starter and Ilgauskas backing him up, there almost always will be a player on the floor that most teams can kill off a pick and roll. And to be blunt, I don’t think Mike Brown is smart enough to figure out ways to guard against that. I’m waiting for the days that Tony Parker, Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, and other quick PGs come to town.
Who knows, maybe Shaq will pull it off. But the Suns got a lot worse in a hurry after Shaq came to town. I’m not sure why anyone would be so certain that he’ll mesh better with Cleveland and LeBron than he did with Phoenix and Nash. I’d lay odds that the Cavs repeat their performance from last year – about 60 wins and one of the top 3 seeds in the East. But I’ll also lay odds that they falter in the playoffs again.
The only thing I’m gleaning from these pre-season games is that the replacement refs need to stop making out with their whistles. 61 fouls? I mean, come on.
jerrywest
October 12th, 2009
10:00 pm
Sekou,
Does Teague play a little bit like Kevin Johnson?
cdog
October 12th, 2009
10:01 pm
why is garrett siler sitting like he is doing the preseason?siler can be a big help to the team in the long run.also, is jason collins injured? these are bigs who will be needed in the long run when the season starts. atlanta will finish in the top three in the east. when the smoke clears , detroit pistons won’t be no where in sight. maybe 7th or 8th.
Melvin
October 12th, 2009
10:03 pm
Two nice moves by Josh and Marvin…
http://www.nba.com/video/games/hawks/2009/10/12/0010900045_cha_atl_3play.nba/index.html?ls=gt1hp0010900045
cdog
October 12th, 2009
10:04 pm
sekou, the crowd will be there when it counts. the hawks will be awesome this year. they will overtake all of the east.
Big Ray
October 12th, 2009
10:09 pm
Well, I will say this.
The Cavs slow frontcourt will only be a problem against teams that have a quick frontcourt…. and know how to use it . Otherwise, they’re going to push a lot of teams around in the half court.
That’s your cue, Woody….dial it up, man…
Big Ray
October 12th, 2009
10:12 pm
Nire ,
All I can say is Anthony Parker is going to see some serious minutes. He’s a better defender even than Delonte West, if you ask me. In fact, if Mike Brown is smart, he will use those two in tandem rather heavily against certain teams.
Either way, I don’t like the Cavs. I’m a Hawks fan, and I’m schemin’ on ways to beat those guys.
jerrywest
October 12th, 2009
10:14 pm
Marvin’s spin move was sick.
Teague tries to block on every fast break. ala Josh. The kid will get injured.
Big Ray
October 12th, 2009
10:16 pm
Melvin,
Thanks again for the link. Man, this kid really likes going to the hole. I LOVE it! Still trying not to get too excited, but I like this kid’s mentality. I watched the replay of that move, and did you see how he “looked” the help defender away? Faked the pass with his eyes and simply soared past his defender. Man, I can’t wait to see him in some regular season games. I know there are going to be some lumps and bruises along the way, but now I can see why everybody in this organization is high on him.
Samuel
October 12th, 2009
10:17 pm
Ray,
I’m always a Shaq fan, always. You’ve been on this blog long enough to know that. Nire, Championship teams have low post scorers. Centers shooting outside jumpers is “sexy” but it don’t win championships.
Again,
Shaq wasn’t the reason Phoenix crashed and burned last year.
#1- They got rid of a pretty darn good coach for a “project”. Hint, Hint.- Bad move
#2- They lost their best Player(not Nash) to a season ending injury half way through the season.
#3- Nash aged about 5 years. He stunk up the joint. He wasn’t even a top ten PG last year.
#4- They traded their best defensive player for a “showboat” named Richardson.
Shaq made All NBA. That’s All NBA.
I see you’re a bettin man like your predecessor, Ando. Save your money. “I told you sos” are much more valuable around here.
Ken Strickland
October 12th, 2009
10:19 pm
After our starting lineup we have under contract Joe Smith, Zaza, MEvans, JTeague, JCrawford, JCollins and RMorris. That’s a total of 12 players, which is the roster limit. There’s no room for any of the other players in camp to make the roster, except on the practice/inactive squad. Based on preseason results, some are already predicting Detroit and Washington will finish ahead of us. Washington is all OFF and no DEF and Detroit is what we’ve been so far, all outside shooting. If we run and play DEF, we’ll finish #3 in the East.
Big Ray
October 12th, 2009
10:23 pm
Dang. Hunter fouled out in 20 minutes. What did they do, play him at SF?
Melvin
October 12th, 2009
10:31 pm
Ray,
The kid (Teague) can play, flat out. No need to be humble about it. He has skills and quickness that you can’t teach. He will be an impact player in this league.
Big Ray
October 12th, 2009
10:31 pm
Samuel ,
I know, but I like messin’ with ya about it. Personally, I thought Shaq to Phoenix was one of the craziest things I’d ever seen. It just didn’t fit, and the thing about it is, he never took away from what Stoudamire was able to do. As I recall, the mercurial young fella still managed a “paltry” 21 points and 8 rebounds a game. Hmm, guess he didn’t clog the lane there either.
Having said that, the Cavs will have trouble with quicker frontcourts. But only the ones who know how to take advantage of their quickness. Boston and Orlando have advantages there. But Boston is getting old, and one of Orlando’s advantages signed with Toronto. We’ll see. But I won’t hand the Cavs the crown just yet. Here’s the thing. I don’t think it’s just Shaq who makes the difference.
My pick of pivotal player on this squad? Anthony Parker. Perfect role player, will guard the 2s and 3s you don’t want Lebron to have to chase around, can hit the open shot, and blends in easily.
As for Shaq, I think he will do what he normally does: play well enough to get by until it’s important. Then he will be trouble. That’s where smart coaching will come in.
Big Ray
October 12th, 2009
10:33 pm
Oh no! Sam , did you call Ando Nire’s predecessor? Ah hell, it’s on now!
Where’s Lorezen Wright? I need some popcorn for THIS one….:lol:
Big Ray
October 12th, 2009
10:34 pm
Melvin ,
I feel you!
Jody
October 12th, 2009
10:36 pm
Jeff Teague with another solid performance tonight. I know it’s preseason and he’s only a rookie, but the skillset he brings to the table is something that can defenitely help the Hawks this year. Plus, I like the fact that he looks up to CP3
.
niremetal
October 12th, 2009
10:38 pm
All that sounds nice, Samuel, except for the fact that the Suns got worse right away with Shaq – even when D’Antoni was coach and Amare was healthy. They were 37-16 and #2 seed in the West before Shaq joined the team, and went 18-11 with Shaq and ended up the #6 seed. The year before, the Suns had been the #2 seed, made the second round of the playoffs, and pushed the Spurs to 6 games. That year, the Suns were taken out in 5 games in the first round by the Spurs, with Shaq bricking free throw after free throw and getting torched by Tony Parker off the pick and roll every game, because Popovich knew Shaq was too slow to deny Parker penetration for even a heartbeat after Duncan or Oberto set the pick.
But I understand. That wasn’t Shaq’s fault. It was the fault of everyone else, but not him. After all, Shaq made the All-NBA 3rd team last year. So it couldn’t have been his fault.
Once again I ask – isn’t it possible that Shaq simply wasn’t as good a fit in Phoenix as Marion had been? Isn’t it possible that was a major contributing factor to the Suns’ drop in performance after Shaq arrived? And so isn’t it possible that Shaq won’t be a savior in Cleveland either?
Samuel
October 12th, 2009
10:39 pm
I’m not handing the crown to anybody. The top three teams are basically a toss up. I just believe Cleveland has the nod.
Again Ken, stay away from Clyde and that Rio bud. There is such a big gap between the Big 3 and the rest of the East, it aint even funny. Wake up dude. I’m a “homer” too but my gosh, get a clue.
niremetal
October 12th, 2009
10:45 pm
Ray,
Your description of Parker sounds a lot like what they traded away in Pavlovic (who was the Cavs’ best perimeter defender). If Mike Brown gives Parker significant minutes, that’ll go a long way. But like Woody, Mike Brown seems to prefer guards who are shooters, and West is a far better shooter than Parker. If he’s smart, he will play Parker a lot of minutes at the 2, because they can’t afford to have a size midmatch in the backcourt and a speed mismatch in the frontcourt.
In any case, I don’t think any of this will matter much until the playoffs unless Shaq’s arrival is a total catastrophe (which I don’t think it will be). But when the playoffs hit, I think that Doc Rivers and Stan Van Gundy will have little trouble exploiting the Cavs’ defensive weaknesses.
niremetal
October 12th, 2009
10:49 pm
That’s the thing about the Shaq move. The Cavs already won 60+ games, finished #1 seed, and made the conference Finals. Two years ago, they made the NBA Finals. So really, unless they win a title, getting Shaq won’t really have moved the needle.
Sekou Smith
October 12th, 2009
11:02 pm
Kevin Johnson is the best comparison I’ve heard so far, jerrywest. Great get.
Samuel
October 12th, 2009
11:07 pm
Pavlovic doesn’t have the heart and toughness that Parker has. Plus they got Moon. Also Powe and JJ Hickson who is becoming a serious player. West will move to the second unit which will be as good as anybody in the league.
Cavs
1st Unit
PG-Williams
SG- Parker
SF-Lebron
PF-Varaj
C-Shaq
2nd Unit
PG- West
SG- Gibson
SF- Moon
PF-Hickson/Powe
C-Illgask
Serious 11 players. Serious
I just think it’s time for LeBron and there’s no better player who can take him over that hump than Shaq.
Lou Dobbs
October 12th, 2009
11:10 pm
I compare teague to Acie Law.
Reggie (The Bird and Indian)
October 12th, 2009
11:13 pm
I just checked out NBA Live 10. It’s getting me pumped up for the season. Let’s go already!
Looking Forward to arguments with Sam/Rod and Mark calling me and Ray homers!
Melvin
October 12th, 2009
11:17 pm
Interesting statements by Woody and Josh. Who will break their word first…lol
“I know one thing,” Woodson said. “I have to get him more touches to the point where he’s more of a threat. Between him and Zaza [Pachulia], we need to be able to muster at least 20 points a night. If we can get Al at about 12 or 13 points and double digit rebounds and Zaza somewhere around eight to 10 points, then we’re talking.”
“I’m keeping my mouth shut,” Josh Smith said as he exited the floor after Brown was ejected. “I’m keeping my mouth shut.”
Najeh Davenpoop
October 12th, 2009
11:19 pm
Once again, preseason don’t mean sh*t. The two things that stand out at me from this box score are Teague’s 7 dimes and Josh Smith’s 5/10 free throw shooting. The first number is good, the second not so good. I’m not worried about the starters’ numbers in the flow of the game, but there’s no excuse for shooting 50% from the line at any time — that can’t be explained away by the game being meaningless. As for Teague, I think the bench players’ numbers matter more, because even if they are guaranteed a roster spot like Teague they are still playing for something (in Teague’s case, playing time).
Reggie (The Bird and Indian)
October 12th, 2009
11:22 pm
I’m looking forward to Teague a lot. I hope to see him playing a lot of minutes against guys like CP3, DWILL, Felton, and Parker. Bibby can’t run with them but I think Teague can.
Melvin
October 12th, 2009
11:24 pm
Complete highlights from the Hawks/Bobcats game tonight. Jeff Teague is a player…
http://www.nba.com/video/games/hawks/2009/10/12/0010900045_cha_atl_recap.nba/index.html?ls=gt1hp0010900045
bigdave
October 12th, 2009
11:24 pm
thoughts on Rush and the Rams…?
Reggie (The Bird and Indian)
October 12th, 2009
11:30 pm
The Rams just need to try anything. Steven Jackson still hasn’t scored a TD all year for my fantasy team!
bigdave
October 12th, 2009
11:52 pm
Reggie…
just thought id ask… Steven A’s comments sparked it… i swear he makes me puke every time he speaks…
cp
October 12th, 2009
11:53 pm
Teague is a player. He has great speed and looks to get to the rim. The difference Ive noticed so far between him and law is Teague’s ability to finish at the rim. Law could always get to the hoop but had trouble finishing. I think a lot of guys are going to ask themselves how they let Teague fall to 19. I think we got a steal. His play-making ability also looks better than advertised coming out of college. I know he is going to have his ups and downs but I think we took the right guy….. Hunter had another solid game. Right now Dixon is looking better than Mario. And why did we sign Collins?
Ken Strickland
October 13th, 2009
2:32 am
It’s official, SAMUEL says Cleveland and LeBron will win the East and the top 3 teams are so much better than the Hawks there’s absolutely no reason for us to even play Boston, Cleveland or Orlando this season. He also feels there’s no way Shaq will be as detrimental to the Cavaliers as he was to the Suns. Now, the Suns were a premier outside shooting team with a dynamic PG(SNash) and PF(AStaudamire), yet he still had a negative effect on them. Cleveland isn’t even in the Suns class as an outside shooting team and they don’t have a dynamic PG or PF.
Along with ANDO, I’ll bet you were convinced Philly would be much better than the Hawks after acquiring EBrand last yr. With the starting lineup you listed for Cleveland, we’d have the advantage at SG, PF and center. LeBron is the only Cleveland player that’s shown he’s capable of matching the scoring ability of our backup PG JCrawford. Who do they have that can match the speed, quickness and demonstrated OFF potential of PG JTeague? Zaza can more than match Ilgauskus, especially at this stage of his career, and Joe Smith certainly knows them well enough to be effective since he played for them last yr. JCollins gives us the size we lacked last yr to compete against them inside and RMorris gives us added depth and versatility. I’m not saying as a team, we’re as good right now as they are, but I just don’t see that BIG GAP you keep referencing, especially when it come to Orlando.
Ariose
October 13th, 2009
5:27 am
Is Bibby a Liability for Atlanta?
http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2009/10/10/20091010_atl_scout.nba/
That voice is creepy though lol…
Ariose
October 13th, 2009
5:36 am
Hawks will be SE division Champs…..
vava74
October 13th, 2009
5:56 am
Ken,
I think that you just got caught up with the “optimism flu”…
I am also very very optimist about our future but I am truly convinced that this will not be our year yet.
I think we will do well (#3 seed and maybe conference final if we do not match up with Cleveland or at least a seven gamer in the semis if we do match up with them).
JJ will renew and next year we will rock with Teague taking over from Bibby who will be the seasoned vet at the point coming off the bench with his savvy and long range daggers.
vava74
October 13th, 2009
6:51 am
Both Marvin and Josh’s spin moves looked terrific (Marvin’s was sick!).
Teague looked really good, however, let us not get too carried away.
Both layups shown on the video highlights came in plays where he was matched up against Dontell Jefferson, whoever that is…
Melvin
October 13th, 2009
7:58 am
Vava,
You are right, JT move was against a lesser known but we cant deny the talent to complete the move. I will admit, I didnt know this Kid was that good. I think the Hawks got a steal picking him at 19. Heck, I haven’t seen any highlights during preseason worth mention of the other PGs pick ahead of him. We gotta comeup with a nickname for him…
TRUTH-SERUM
October 13th, 2009
8:05 am
DUH?!!
“I know one thing,” Woodson said. “I have to get him more touches to the point where he’s more of a threat. Between him and Zaza [Pachulia], we need to be able to muster at least 20 points a night. If we can get Al at about 12 or 13 points and double digit rebounds and Zaza somewhere around eight to 10 points, then we’re talking.”
DUH!!
I WONDER WHAT OFFENSIVE TOOLS THE POWERFORWARD WILL USE AGAINST CENTERS WHO ARENT MASQUERADING POWERFOWARDS. NEITHER ZAZA NOR HORFORD CAN CREATE THEIR OWN SHOTS AND WILL TAKE THE OFFENSE OUT OF RYTHEM TRYING TO SET THEM. ZAZA IS A TURNOVER WAITING TO HAPPEN AND HORFORD HAS VERY LIMITED OFFENSIVE TOOLS.
vava74
October 13th, 2009
8:06 am
Let’s make a first list of suggestions, select the best and then make a poll to vote the winning name!!
Maybe he will adopt it!!
vava74
October 13th, 2009
8:13 am
Thruth Serum,
We were all wondering what had happened to you… we were missing your constructive contributions!
Maybe the sight of Zaza dunking woke you up from your slumber…
Daniel
October 13th, 2009
8:28 am
caught the highlight package. Loved the Marvin move in the paint. If we get more of that from him this year, we will really push for a 3 seed.
Teague looks so quick and aggressive on the court. Yes, Vava it was against a camp player, but he will mostly be going against second unit guys this year.
As for nicknames, one suggestion (I don’t know just came to mind)
JT-0, like the GT0(sports car)?
Daniel
October 13th, 2009
8:28 am
There goes Vava poking him with a stick.
vava74
October 13th, 2009
8:59 am
Daniel,
Nice suggestion! The analogy with the sports car is excellent, fitting both his quickness and the number.
I support it unequivocally! JT-0!
vava74
October 13th, 2009
9:05 am
I meant to say: “…his initials (phonetically) and number”
TRUTH-SERUM
October 13th, 2009
9:20 am
vava74
Yeah… even a broke clock is right twice a day!!
A grade for your humor… I got block when the discussion of whether Horford or Josh is better. Apparently my input was being censored, and I’m not surprised or discouraged.. Bottom line is Josh is much better than Horford.
Horford has good basic skill and is a sound blue collar worker. He puts up average numbers against the other power forwards who masquerade as centers, which to me makes him about average. You cant win championship with average. Josh on the other hand is significantly better than Al in jumping, blocking and intimidating. Josh can create his own shots and horford need to be set up or hope for a put back from a rebound (garbage points). Josh brings an attitude to the game and has an players edge in competition. Josh is clearly a better power forward who can lead a break and can pass too.- point forward anyone…?
TRUTH-SERUM
October 13th, 2009
9:23 am
Josh can back a player down and finishish with the best of the nba, al cant back anyone down.
niremetal
October 13th, 2009
9:36 am
I lvoe JT-0 too. To make it even better, we can call him “Little JT-O,” in homage to Ronny and the Daytonas.
C’mon and turn it on, wind it up, blow it out, JT-0
niremetal
October 13th, 2009
9:37 am
*love
vava74
October 13th, 2009
9:50 am
Truth Serum,
You are obviously entitled to your opinion, however, I think you disregard certain aspects of the game which are extremely important in my opinion.
Al is a much superior on-the-ball defender than Josh is.
There is no question that Josh is an excellent help defender and intimidator, however, his inferior man defence (in relation to Al’s) makes him a defensive liability against the more offensively gifted PFs of the game.
I also agree that Al is not (at least not yet) a true C however, as someone as mentioned around here, this is not NBA2K10 and we have to accept what can be achieved cap wise and market wise.
If you told me, get Howard for Horford, I would agree, however, that is not an option and there are not too many actual Centers out there which I would take over Al.
Apart from Howard, only Duncan and Shaq (as a short term things), Bynum (if he gets his head and legs right, which is something that is not certain at all) and Brook Lopez (which ability and physical durability levels are not yet certain).
Actually, I don’t think that there are any which would be a true upgrade in relation to Horford (don’t bring up Al Jefferson who also is not a C and defensively is a highway to the hoop).
I also believe that you neglect another extremely important factor for success in a team sport: the intangibles which some players bring and some others don’t.
Al Horford has an excellent character and is a hard working, un-selfish young player who brings a lot to the table collectively.
vava74
October 13th, 2009
9:52 am
Sekou!
Pass on to the guys our nickname suggestion: we want Teague to be known as JT-0!
I don’t think we need any other suggestions nor a poll! I’m sold!
Melvin
October 13th, 2009
9:59 am
JT-O, sounds good to me as well…
Melvin
October 13th, 2009
10:00 am
Vava,
You know Sam is going to get you for talking about AL Jefferson like that…
TRUTH-SERUM
October 13th, 2009
10:08 am
Why dont we call him rumeal teague robinson, or Acie teague law…what ever happen to that russian guard we drafted in the late ninties?
Daniel
October 13th, 2009
10:23 am
wow- I am flattered that my nickname suggestion is getting such good reviews. Love the reference Nire. Anyone who is good with computers(I am not) could photoshop a pic of Jeff in a GTO with the new letters.
Daniel
October 13th, 2009
10:36 am
In terms of Josh and Al, I would not say that Al is a better player at this point than Josh. But, I also wouldn’t say that Josh is CLEARLY the better player. They both have strengths and weaknesses, both are still young and developing. I am glad to have both on our team, and both are starters in the NBA and should be.
ILL-logical
October 13th, 2009
10:39 am
Sekou, good piece on ZaZa’s new restaurant. I learned two things from the article: First, ZaZa did do some due diligence before the purchase and Woodson has a real estate company.
These types of stories could use some further development because the off court activities of the Hawks are for the most part positive and the stories help solidify their community support and standing. Thanks for the what I hope was the first instalment.
TRUTH-SERUM
October 13th, 2009
10:57 am
Vava There is not enough meat of disagreement with what you feel and what my opinion is. I like Horford hes a blue collar worker who doesnt have good offensive tools but his a nice person and a good worker. Josh hasnt peaked. Al has. Josh is a star bordering superstar. Yes, he intimidates and does block shots well. He can back you down and score. Al cant. Josh plays the game above the rim. Al plays the game for territory. Josh is clearly a better player although there styles are different. I dont find enough disagreement in our views to spark a debate. They are both assest. But when and if we get a center, Al will be the back up to Josh and the new center. In that case Josh starts over al.
TRUTH-SERUM
October 13th, 2009
10:58 am
he is a nice
their styles
assets
niremetal
October 13th, 2009
11:02 am
Co-sign ILL.
Daniel
October 13th, 2009
11:12 am
Ill- I missed that article, where is it?
Today’s Celtics Links 10/13 « Flceltsfan’s Weblog
October 13th, 2009
11:30 am
[...] Attitude Green Street Pierce Turning 32 Going on 20 Garnett: The wings are coming AJC Hawks’ starters won’t be out here long, so take a good look Patriot Ledger Celtics’ captain Pierce feeling fit as he celebrates 32nd birthday Da [...]
vava74
October 13th, 2009
11:37 am
Truth Serum,
I don’t think that Al has peaked. There we disagree strongly, even if his numbers do not evolve dramatically, he can still become more effective (for instance, I think his defence will continue to improve for at least 3/4 years until it peaks).
I think that a midway solution could be viable for us: to get a C/PF backup for Al and Josh who has a good offensive game and that could come in to keep interior defences honest (for instance, if we found someone with Curry’s bulk and offensive game).
In the absence of that, I think that contrary to your vision, we are moderately well with Zaza, who is a perfectly acceptable backup C/PF (who also brings excellent intangibles).
The problems come when we hope for the moon and the moon is out of reach.
I really believe that the only way forward for the Hawks is steady progress and a strong team concept. Hence, I am completely against any trades, given my perception that the limit of the current roster’s potential is still unknown.
gwite
October 13th, 2009
12:15 pm
“Hawks Trim Preseason Roster
Tuesday, October 13, 2009
By Micah Hart
As we move closer to the start of the regular season, we know the Hawks will have to trim some players to get at least to the league maximum of 15 roster spots.
Tuesday the Hawks got a little bit closer to that number, as they requested waivers on guards Aaron Miles and Frank Robinson.
Not a huge surprise with the depth the Hawks have in the backcourt, but we certainly wish both players well in the future.”
http://www.hawksbasketblog.com/
Gamarjoba
October 13th, 2009
12:29 pm
Al’s better than what Mr. Truthiness thinks. And if you don’t think Zaza can score, you haven’t been watching the Hawks for the past few years.
Ramon
October 13th, 2009
1:22 pm
Al is a solid pro. Josh is an All Star pro. Josh is better, and will continue to be better. The Hawks struggles more if Josh goes down, than if Al goes down.
niremetal
October 13th, 2009
1:58 pm
Funny. I seem to remember the Hawks going 5-7 when Al went down and 6-6 went Josh went down. Must have dreamt that.
Methinks that Al is more important to this team’s success that you’re giving him credit for.
niremetal
October 13th, 2009
2:06 pm
And actually, the injury to Horford was the only time this year that the Hawks didn’t follow their usual pattern of winning a couple games after a starter goes down and then starting to struggle. The Hawks lost back-to-back games right off the bat, and went 5-7 during one of the easiest schedule segments of the season. Amazing how short some people’s memories are…we struggled mightily when Horford went down.
TRUTH-SERUM
October 13th, 2009
2:12 pm
vava74
October 13th, 2009
11:37 am
Yeah I do think Al is about as good as he gets. You dont and you think he will be better in three quarters of a year. OK I appreciate your opinion. Its not enought for me to dispel or address. Nothing you have said merits any further response. Al is a nice man an a decent pf who has limited offensive skills. You disagree. OK nice chatting with you.
TRUTH-SERUM
October 13th, 2009
2:14 pm
Ramon
Ill co-sign that. Its readily apparent. Good call.
The Truth
October 13th, 2009
2:22 pm
I was at the last night and I thoroughly enjoyed watching the backcourt tandem of Teague and J Dixon. Dixon is making a strong case for a roster spot. Woody apparently has a strong eye on him as he logged the most minutes of any invitee. For those who miss Flip Murray, Dixon plays like he could be the consolation prize as an aggressive combo guard. When Teague often draw double team, Dixon made them paid as he was on his game last night.
Ariose
October 13th, 2009
2:25 pm
Franchise Guys?
http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/vince_thomas/10/13/franchise/index.html
The Truth
October 13th, 2009
2:25 pm
Correction: Dixon made them pay as he was on his game last night.
Ariose
October 13th, 2009
2:26 pm
Dixon sucks…..trust me. I’ve seen him play a ton over the years…..just…..no.
Ariose
October 13th, 2009
2:32 pm
No, No, No!
How about J-Quick for teague?
Quicky von quick quick? lol j/k
I would say nickname him flash something but that names already been given to that crybaby down in Miami.
Ariose
October 13th, 2009
2:36 pm
Isn’t it GT-O(the letter) and you guys are aying JT-0(the number) right…thats not the same lol and no one will get it hehehe…..
Ariose
October 13th, 2009
2:40 pm
Micah Hearts game footage from last night:
http://www.nba.com/hawks/video/2009/10/13/HawksBobcatsOct12HQmp4-1089077/index.html
MsDee
October 13th, 2009
2:42 pm
I like J-Quick too!!
Ariose
October 13th, 2009
2:46 pm
Or how about for Teague & Crawford we go with Shake & Bake?
The Truth
October 13th, 2009
2:47 pm
Ariose
You say Dixon sucks? Then you better send Woody a post card b/c he seemed to be salivating last night. He got some occasional Josh-like reaction from the crowd as well. Mario got a few boos as he continues to struggle with his shot (I said that as if he actually had one).
Ariose
October 13th, 2009
2:49 pm
Enter your comments here
Ariose
October 13th, 2009
2:52 pm
Truth….they both suck….where is stackhouse lol…Writing that post card right now he!
Meh, on second thought J-Craw is Shake n’ Bake all by himself lol…
Ariose
October 13th, 2009
2:58 pm
Heat Sign Carlos Arroyo:
http://www.nba.com/2009/news/10/12/heat.arroyo.ap/index.html
niremetal
October 13th, 2009
3:28 pm
Ariose,
The pronunciation would be “Jay-Tee-Oh.” I mean, it makes sense even if people had never heard of the GTO, but I think most bball fans are either into cars or have listened to a Beach Boys song at least once in their lives
jerrywest
October 13th, 2009
3:39 pm
So, Teague is getting double teamed already?
Melvin
October 13th, 2009
3:47 pm
I think Mike Wilks and Sims are next to turn in their playbooks to the Turk…
Ramon
October 13th, 2009
3:48 pm
People say Hortford is a better interior defender than Josh. But I recall opposing teams scoring in the lane alot easier against Horford and Zaza, than Smooth and Zaza. Horford defense may appear to be better one on one. But it may be drastically affected by the fact that he only has to worry about his man. Smooth has to cover his man, and keep lookout for anyone cutting back door. Also in a switch defense (what the Hawks employ), Smooth is clearly a better defender against the pick and roll than Horford. Smooth’s value for this team is obviously appreciated more than Horford by Sund. Horford is the 2nd best PF on this team. I love Horford’s game because it is very complimentary. I could see him becoming a Horace Grant or Antonio Davis type of player. But the most I see for him is being a poor man’s Boozer.
Each season you could easily see where Smooth game improved from the last. Horford’s game improves by very small measures. And don’t forget, since he’s been on this team Smoove has played FOUR different positions. He’s only played PF for 2 years. When Marvin was drafted, Marvin was supposed to be the PF, not Smooth. And as far as Horford having better handles than Josh, that is quite laughable. Horford can only dribble in one direction, and that is straight.
Ken Strickland
October 13th, 2009
4:22 pm
VALVA74-Are you implying that I’m being overly optimistic? I would agree with you if I was expecting us to win a championship this yr, but I’m only predicting we’ll successfully compete for the 3rd seed in the East. I don’t see a single team in the East that can match the organic growth we’ll get from our starting frontline.
We added and upgraded our talent without sacrificing anything. Orlando added 2 new starters, VCarter and BBass, but lost 3 very important starters in HTurkoglu, CLee and RAlston. If PG JNelson goes down again, who will step in and do what RAlston did last yr? They lost over 11 APG when they lost Alston, Lee and Turkoglu, as well as 3pt shooting, ball handling and versatility. We lost 3 players, SClaxton, ALaw and SJones, 3 players that neither started or made significant contributions. We’re also far less dependent on one player than any of the top three. We now go 4 deep at center(Horford, Zaza, Collins & Morris), which allows us to battle the DHoward’s inside for 4 qtrs.
We managed to win 47gms last yr with key injuries to our entire starting frontline and a thin bench. I believe the Teague, Crawford, Collins and Joe Smith additions will be enough of an upgrade to generate at least 5-8 additional wins. Teams that have improved, like Detroit, Indiana, Washington and Atlanta, will reduce the number of overall wins accumulated last yr by the top 3. AGAIN, I JUST DON’T SEE THIS VAST GAP BETWEEN US AND THE TOP 3. Those who feel so certain about that vast gap between us and the top 3 are overestimating the additions the top 3 have made and underestimating the organic improvement and additions the Hawks have made.
Dub C
October 13th, 2009
5:03 pm
Ramon, you mentioned that Smoove has played four different positions for the Hawks. I know he’s played the SF and PF positions, but what are the other two positions?
Ken Strickland, I couldn’t agree with you more.
TRUTH-SERUM
October 13th, 2009
5:13 pm
Ramon
October 13th, 2009
3:48 pm
I have to agree with you and raise you one. More players back down against Horford than Josh. Josh plays the game above the rim so cutters are intimidated by his presence and centers have to stay home to protect against the J-oop. Horford just doesnt have the offensive tool. He spent four years at Florida and was polished and groomed when he entered the pros. His game is pretty much the same then as it is now. Not much has changed. Of course I dont expect it to. Hes just about peaked. Josh came straight out of high school and was just a raw talent to be groomed and polished. He has not reached his peak and Yes. Hes a star budding on superstardom. Both are assets but its a no brainer Josh is better. Ray Charles can see that!!!
Hoops
October 13th, 2009
5:25 pm
Dixon is making a strong case for a roster spot it seems. Well, if he earns it then he should get it!
I wonder if there has been any thought to signing Stackhouse along with Dixon. That would about cover all of the roster concerns with this team!
Ramon
October 13th, 2009
5:36 pm
Dub C, Smooth’s rookie season he played quite a few games at the 2 position. And also he’s played stints at the 5 position, even if only for a limited amount of minutes (versus Golden State/ Phoenix). The point of me saying that is he is very versatile. I’m not saying he’s as good as KG, but he is just as versatile as KG was.
Ramon
October 13th, 2009
5:39 pm
I do hate how on this board when you say one player is better than another, people make it seems as if you’re saying the latter player isn’t a good player at all.
Stating the Obvious
October 13th, 2009
6:19 pm
How can anyone be so stupid that they think a 23 year old coming off his second near double-double season who still doesnt get any tuoches has already peaked? Thats just messed up.
AtlFlavor
October 13th, 2009
6:30 pm
The Hawks are right on schedule after 3 Pre season games. Team Defense will decide the Hawks fate without a doubt. The Eastern Conf is going to be a dogfight. A Healthy Hawks squad could be right there in the 2 to 4 spots. All of the camp FA are working on contracts that dont become guaranteed until Jan. Extended Per Diem. West and Hunter’s value will be well determined by that point. Also the need to Tweak the roster if needed with a trade. The Real talk should be about the Umps.
The League has to get something done on this ASAP.
Ramon
October 13th, 2009
6:35 pm
STO, with all due respect, what was the difference in your eyes, from Al’s first season and his second season? Will his numbers go up some season? More than likely they will. But personally, I don’t ever see him being dominant. I see Al having a great career, but not a dominant one.
Stating the Obvious
October 13th, 2009
6:39 pm
His field goal % went up, his assists went up, his turnovers went down, his fouls went down. And he scored 1.5 more points despite getting only 0.6 more shots per game. He also looked a lot smoother on the blocks. Its not his fault that Woody won’t run plays for anyone but JJ and JJ and Bibby won’t pass to him. You cant score more unless you get the ball.
Stating the Obvious
October 13th, 2009
6:41 pm
All that even tho he got hurt in the middle of the season. You think he wont get much better? As I said thats just stupid. He is only 23.
O'Brien
October 13th, 2009
6:48 pm
Since Sekou has seen him up close and personal, maybe he can come up with a name for Teague. My vote is for J-Quick.
And I agree with Ken. I think the Hawks should be very competitive for a #3 seed, and should be very competitive in the second round of the playoffs (barring injuries of course).
Woody has more offensive firepower, JJ should not be as tired in the 4th quarter and playoffs, and we have depth at PF and C.
niremetal
October 13th, 2009
6:51 pm
JT0
JerryWest
October 13th, 2009
6:52 pm
“Marvin’s come in every year since his rookie year in great shape and he’s really been consistent,” Woodson said. “But he’s the one guy over the next two years that I think can really make the jump to become more of an elite scorer, mostly because he can put the ball on the floor and draw fouls. He added the 3-point shot to his game last season and I think that pushed his game to another level. Now, he has to take another step.”
JerryWest
October 13th, 2009
6:52 pm
I like JT-0 as well.
Ramon
October 13th, 2009
6:57 pm
STO, I’m not saying his stats won’t go up. I’m saying you don’t see a great improvement in his game away from the stats and on the court. Remember Al HARRINGTON and Antoine Walker were the KINGS of stats here (as well as Glenn Robinson), but they didn’t come back with great improvements. I’m sorry I’ll say his mid range jumper was better last year. But Al still looked like a robot on the block to me. Everything he did looked mechanical, not athletic. Not saying that he’s not athletic, but on the block it wasn’t that great.
On the side where you said about the stats, his rebounding went down a good bit. And if his percentage of field goal made went up, of course his scoring would go up 1 point, those are stats that tend to go with one another. But did you think maybe also his scoring went up that extra point more because he had Bibby there for an entire season and that lead to more one on one opportunities for him? Are you sure that his points going up, wasn’t because he was the 6th focal point (JJ, Smooth, Bibby, Flip, Marvin, and THEN Al) of the opposing defenses?
In the NBA, players drastically improving usually results from more maturation of their athletic ability. Athletically, Horford is close to peaking. When it comes to dominance in the NBA, name one dominant player at their position who didn’t have an athletic and physical advantage over their opposition. Horford is a great player, but Horford is more of a Charles Oakley (in his good days) type player, not an Al Jefferson or Mourning. As I said, at best I see him being a poor man’s Boozer or Brand.
STO, no one is saying that Horford sucks as a player, but the stats and physical traits that Horford brings on the court are easier to replace than a lot of other players. I will admit Horford’s heart and intensity are great attributes that can’t be shown in the stats, that is what makes him a natural leader. The same way Kevin Johnson was the leader of the Barkley’s Suns, even though he wasn’t the best player, being a good leader or captain doesn’t mean you’re the best player. (By the way, Horford isn’t better than Smoove also because Horford doesn’t sell tickets. And this is a business).
niremetal
October 13th, 2009
7:02 pm
I mean, come on. BUILT IN HOKEY CLASSIC THEME SONG:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44kg0IENTPU
Take him out to Orlando and let ‘em know yeah, yeah
That he’s the coolest thing around
Little buddy’s gonna shut you down
When he turns it on, winds it up, blows you out – JT-0!
niremetal
October 13th, 2009
7:07 pm
Come on Ramon – “his rebounding went down a good bit”? His rebounding went down a total of 0.4rpg. If that’s “a good bit” then what’s “a little bit?”
Dude’s a beast, and Woody just needs to let him out of his cage. Hell, Woody even said so himself in an article a couple days back. I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that you’re damned near alone if you think Horford can’t and/or won’t get much better than he is now.
niremetal
October 13th, 2009
7:13 pm
I’m looking back Ramon….but I don’t see anyone who’s saying that Horford is better than Smoove. Vava gets the closest by saying that he’s a better on-ball defender than Smoove (which is true), but that’s it. Put down the straw…
Ramon
October 13th, 2009
7:20 pm
Nire, I’ve said stats wise he will get better. I’ve said I think he will have a great career. But I do not think he is the second best player on this team, plain and simple. Is he a good player, yes. But can you truly say you feel he will be able to create for himself enough to be the ‘beast’ this season? And going down 0.4 rpg when your minutes INCREASED is more than a little bit. Last year everyone said that Smoove shot too many jumpers and 3pts. Funny how with all of those jumpers Al still only shot a ‘little bit’ of .30 percent higher than Smoove in FG percentage. Woody said he needs to let Zaza out of his cage, I don’t see anyone out side of Georgia (the country) getting ready to put Zaza name on the ballot for all star.
Ramon
October 13th, 2009
7:21 pm
Nire, look again. That’s what the dialogue between Truth, STO, and myself was about. Who’s better out of the two. Put down the razor blade and stop cutting it up, lol.
tyger
October 13th, 2009
7:25 pm
Rick Sund dumb as sht!
David Anderson is a scoring machine! He wore Shellhead out. We dont have anyone with a mid-range game like that. I repeat Rick Sund is dumb as sht! What an ashole!
He gave away 20/10 for absolutely nothing. Rick Sund is dumb as sht!
niremetal
October 13th, 2009
7:25 pm
Ramon,
I don’t even know where to start with that last post, so I won’t. Wow. Ok. Have a good night.
Ramon
October 13th, 2009
7:28 pm
Good evening Niremetal.
Stating the Obvious
October 13th, 2009
7:29 pm
I already knew you were stupid Ramon but i guess you must be blind too. I never even MENTIONED josh, so how could i be saying Horford was better than him? What the hell are you smoking?
Ramon
October 13th, 2009
7:43 pm
STO, you show me where I said you said anything about Josh? I said the dialogue where I came in started with Truth and me. And then you came in debating about Horford. And by the way, just so you remember, to think that a FOUR year college basketball senior after 2 years in the NBA, won’t progress athletically, isn’t stupid, its an opinion that is supported by majority of the thee or four year players who come out of college. Even when Horford came out, the reports were he was the most NBA ready, but didn’t have the most UPSIDE. So if you think that’s stupid, then what league have you been watching the last 10-15 years? Not many 3 or4 year players who play low post positions come out of college, and still has so much more room to improve. If that was the case, Sam Bowie, Olowokandi, Sheldon, and more would’ve lasted at least 10 seasons.
vava74
October 13th, 2009
7:44 pm
Truth Serum,
I meant to say that Al will peak within 3 to 4 years, not within 3 quarters of a year.
The Truth
October 13th, 2009
7:54 pm
As I watched the game last night at Phillips, I am noticing continued progress in Marvin’s offense game. He had a monster game in Detroit given the minutes he played as well. His confidence in his abilities is growing. That highlight move of him getting to the rack was impressive. The crowd went-off. I didn’t see that move last year; just as I didn’t see that three-ball from him either. Also, with his wing-span and jumping ability, he will always get his share of rebounds. I see more up-side to Marvin’s game as a consequence.
Regarding Al, the only concern I have is not really his offense game. I think he will get his share of put-backs, easy dunks, setups from defensive breakdowns, etc. during the course of a game to always get his typical 10-12 points PPG. With our new offensive weapons in Teague and Crawford, it should open-up the floor better to make these numbers legit if not even better. My only concern is him just being out muscled by bigger and stronger centers. I noticed last night as also last year when the ball is shot by a player and our frontline is posturing for rebound position, Al often times loses the positioning battle to the stronger opponent. To his credit he doesn’t give up and sometimes wins with his quickness. But sometimes the size difference is so obvious and will show up in a rebounding advantage against the elite teams. That could be the difference in losing a game by 2-4 points. We are hoping our rebounding is done by committee to help us overcome this problem.
vava74
October 13th, 2009
7:58 pm
Ramon,
Sam Bowie’s knees killed his career and he never fulfilled his potential on account of that.
Even so he put up decent numbers in just 27 minutes per game over his career.
Olowokandi killed his own career with lack of passion and effort for the game (he was never top 3 material anyhow since he was coming out a small college programme).
Shelden was a mistake all along because his body, 6′9” with what I think is a limited wingspan (I may be wrong here so if anyone knows differently, please correct me) did not match the pro requirements. He was basically too small to be the type of C he was in college in the NBA.
Stating the Obvious
October 13th, 2009
7:59 pm
Horford was a junior, and you just told Niremetal “That’s what the dialogue between Truth, STO, and myself was about. Who’s better out of the two.” If you want to keep thikning Horford has peaked, fine. But dont try to put words in my mouth and then try to take them back when you get called out on it. Tim Duncan got a lot better once he hit the NBA, so did Chris Kaman and Brad Miller and Elton Brand and Carlos Boozer and Sam Bowie was 25 years ago, not 10-15 and his problem was injuries. No one thought Shelden had talent except Knight. No one said Olowokandi was NBA ready, they all said he was a project and that he needed time which is the exact opposite of Horford. Yeah the critics said Horford had a low ceiling but they said the same thing about Brandon Roy and Danny Granger and Elton Brand and lots of other people. Its just stupid to say that Horford has peaked after his second season when he had to fight through injuries and never had a play called for him. AND NO I’M NOT SAYING HE’S BETTER THAN JOSH, I’M NOT TALKING ABOUT JOSH AT ALL.
Ramon
October 13th, 2009
8:33 pm
STO, for the last time, I never said you said anything about Josh. I stated my comments about Josh came from the dialogue I had with Truth and STO (you). I initially got on this subject in response to Truth’s post saying Josh was better than Horford. That is how that started. And then YOU came and addressed one of my comments.
Now to the statements about basketball. Elton Brand was a 20/10 guy as a ROOKIE, 2ND YEAR PLAYER, AND 3RD YEAR PLAYER. Carlos Boozer averaged 15/11 in his second year in the league. Brad Miller didn’t start more than 45 games in a season until his 5th or 6th season, prior to that season he only averages 22 minutes a game. Chris Kaman has only had one season where his numbers were better than Horford, so his improvement doesn’t equate to much of anything. And one thing that Miller and Kaman has is that they are 7 feet. Otherwise most GMs would’ve given up on them before their respected seasons where they finally played decent. Sam Bowie averaged a double double only ONE season in his career. In the NBA, Bowie was never considered one of the bests in his career. As I said, more times than not, post players don’t improve athletically (not stats but athletically) when they reach that age. Matter of fact, there are more post players who start battling more injuries after then, than who go on to become All Star caliber players. Oh and before I forget, Duncan averaged 21.1/11.9 his rookie season, is that not the same as his career average?
niremetal
October 13th, 2009
9:34 pm
I tried to splice an image of Teague into a GTO with its top down, but I don’t have the Photoshop skills. Ah well.
Ramon
October 13th, 2009
9:42 pm
Lol, do you have the photo of Teague?
Melvin
October 13th, 2009
10:00 pm
Link to NBA.com analyst players classification that we debated around here for the longest…
http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/vince_thomas/10/13/franchise/index.html
Rick Marcel
October 13th, 2009
10:02 pm
Players that suck don’t get to be first team offense and defense in the ACC, as well as be MVP of the NCAA tournament the year Maryland won.Dixon is a scorer and won’t run away from the pressure shot.Weight has been against him early on, but as he’s gotten heavier and stronger—— lookout.
Big Ray
October 13th, 2009
10:19 pm
Ramon ,
Hope you don’t mind me nudging my way into this conversation
.
I think part of the problem is that Horford has not been counted on for offense very much in his young NBA career. A bigger part of the problem? The fact that he is an “undersized” center. I think he makes a better PF than he does center, and just about all of the experts and pundits say the same thing. Of course, just because they say it doesn’t make it a fact, but that is the general opinion.
Personally, I think he is a better prototypical PF than Josh Smith is. Josh is really not a banger, but Horford is. Josh is a better weak side defender, Horford is a better body-up “man” defender. Blocked shots don’t figure into that, as a good low post “man” defender knows how to use his body to keep an opponent off balance or otherwise out of his “sweet spot.” That’s what Dennis Rodman did, and he was all-NBA defensively. Again, shot-blocking doesn’t figure into that.
Josh doesn’t go after the defender, he goes after the shot. Nothing wrong with that, he’s just a different type of defender. And as we know, what is considered prototypical for a position is something that is always changing. Often, it’s because of what the team needs. This team has no serviceable, starter-grade center of 6′11 or taller. Horford is the best we have at this spot, currently. So, we need Horford at the pivot, and Josh at the 4. Basically, nobody on this squad plays the 5 better than Horford, and because of that (among other things), nobody plays the 4 better than Josh.
That’s why they are where they are. I hesitate to say one guy is better than the other at this point. Neither has peaked yet. Josh has more ceiling, Horford already provides more consistency (sorry, but even as a HUGE Josh fan, I have to say it). One is a guy who would be just fine with averaging a double-double with limited touches on offense. The other requires more touches on offense and prefers a bigger role than 4th or 5th option. One is a PF/C, the other is a SF/PF, at least in my estimation.
I don’t see the point in comparing them at the same position unless there is serious talk about bringing in another starter-grade center. Not to suggest that you WERE making this comparison.
And something tells me that unless we show we can compete for and win it all with the current frontcourt starting lineup, one of them will eventually have to go. Just a theory. And one that will no doubt re-open a whole new can of worms….:twisted:
Samuel
October 13th, 2009
10:23 pm
I’ve said before that I like Al as a player. He is a solid All Around player. While I don’t believe he has peaked by any means, I don’t believe he will get much better at scoring. He’s just not that skilled and he’s not powerful enough to overpower people. if he can get his average up to 15ppg, he will be a very good player. he probably will not ever be a “great” player.
Ken,
I like that, “organic growth”. How original. Surely, you saw the gap last year between the big 3 and the rest of the East. Jose Feliciano could see that.
Now, look at the off season moves.
Shaq,Parker,Moon,Powe
VCarter, BBass, RAnderson, RFoye, MBarnes
RWallace, MDaniels, A healthy KG
vs
JTeague, JSmith, JCrawford, JCollins
Now I will say this. There is a slight possibility that we catch Boston if: Garnett goes down,eventhough I believe that even without Garnett, they will still be better than us. I also said that if by some chance we met them(celtics) in the 2nd round, we could possibly beat them. We match up well with the. Cleveland and Orlando, no way.
Big Ray
October 13th, 2009
10:32 pm
Melvin ,
Nice link. WHAT?? Chris Paul made the “Franchise Guy” list, but Joe Johnson didn’t? GASP!!
Meanwhile back in Hawksville, word is that Marvin has a new spin move and Woody thinks he might average more than 14ppg this season…heh…
Hey wait a minute…maybe this is why Rod reacts to Marvin the way he does. He doesn’t really hate Marvin, he just really likes CP3.
….. is that Niremetal over there putting gas in his portable flamethrower ? Here we go….
niremetal
October 13th, 2009
10:36 pm
Too busy working the phones trying to sell people on JT-0, Ray…
Big Ray
October 13th, 2009
10:49 pm
Right….
Big Ray
October 13th, 2009
10:51 pm
Samuel ,
The way I see it, Boston is not more talented than we are. But as you say, they are a better TEAM. Definitely more cohesive. We lack the cohesion. Cleveland has it. Orlando has it (though to a lesser degree). Boston has it (probably the most of any Eastern Conference team, in my opinion). We don’t have it. And I struggle with the answer as to why.
niremetal
October 13th, 2009
10:54 pm
Actually, just reading one of Phil Jackson’s books. This man is messed up.
Big Ray
October 13th, 2009
10:59 pm
Yeesh. Y’all see what Orlando did to New Orleans? That was just WRONG.
Oh, and if anybody thinks that Rashard Lewis’ early season suspension is going to hold Orlando down…I have a name for you that says different: Ryan Anderson . Jersey messed that trade up, I tell you…
Big Ray
October 13th, 2009
11:01 pm
Nire , didn’t have to read a book to tell you that one. Yet his hands are covered in NBA championship rings…
Ken Strickland
October 13th, 2009
11:59 pm
TIGER-get a clue before going off on a rant against RSund. Anderson made it clear he wasn’t going to sign with us because the knew he didn’t have a chance to start. He wanted to go where he would have that chance. So, instead of continuing to hold on to his draft rights and getting nothing out of the pick used to acquire those rights, Sund traded him. We have the same situation with JChildress.
SAMUEL-everyone saw LAST YRS gap between the top 3 Eastern conference teams and the rest of the conference. However, my comments and projections are based on the upcoming 2009/10 season, not what happened last yr. I’m surprised you haven’t picked up on that by now.
Your major malfunction is you’re overly star struck. Any team that signs a player that excites you is automatically deemed superior in your mind, especially if that player received some kind of award or recognition. You seem totally incapable of grasping and/or accepting the idea that your star player might end up being disruptive to his new team, like Shaq was with Phoenix and Brand was with Philly. WHAT DID FORMER ALLSTAR BEN WALLACE DO FOR CHICAGO COMPARED TO WHAT HE DID FOR DETROIT? You often go overboard with bringing up the Allstar and All NBA awards when it comes to rating a players value to a new team. The fact Shaq made 3rd team All NBA certainly didn’t benefit the Suns or stop them from becoming a much less productive team. THE FACT IS, PHOENIX WAS A MUCH WORSE TEAM WITH SHAQ THAN THEY WERE WITHOUT HIM, WHICH IS WHY THEY SENT HIM PACKING.
You don’t seem to understand that we are all offering nothing more than our opinions when it comes to projections for the upcoming season and who will finish where. You seem to have this distorted idea that your opinions are somehow factual and can’t be challenged.
Rod from College Park
October 14th, 2009
2:10 am
Big Ray,
Please don’t hold you breath waiting on Marvin. I have heard the same story for the past 3 years. You can’t teach aggressiveness and confidence. He has neither.
Big Ray
October 14th, 2009
2:29 am
Rod ,
No worries. I’m not holding my breath on anyone. The season will be very telling for a number of our players, if you ask me. As long as detractors and supporters alike are around to acknowledge whatever happens, whenever it does, with whomever it does.
I guess the main reason I don’t get upset with Marvin is because I never agreed with the draft pick to begin with, and never expected him to be the superstar many painted him to have potential as. I’m not trying to say I’m smarter than a league full of GMs, but I just wasn’t seeing it. I saw another talented forward and that was it. And I’ll never buy the argument that just about any other GM would have taken him that high. Rubbish.
Big Ray
October 14th, 2009
2:36 am
All the same, he’s here, he gets the job done, and he’s a credit to the team. Somebody has to step it up, and somebody has to make the sacrifice. So far, it’s been Al and Marvin who have done the sacrificing. That may change this year, and I can’t predict how.
Listening during that televised training camp, I heard Eric Snow say that Josh Smith had the most room to grow on this team. I tend to agree. Sit back for a moment and consider what that really means, especially in light of the fact that he is the team’s second leading scorer, second leading rebounder, leader in blocks, etc. Will he realize his potential? Couldn’t tell ya. But it’s there.
And this is no knock on Marvin, but everytime there is an assessment done on Marvin and Josh it’s Josh that they talk about being the difference between the Hawks being a good team or a very good team. Some may not like the sound of that, but it is what it is.
vava74
October 14th, 2009
5:53 am
I am convinced that all 3 of our young guns (Al, Josh and Marvin) will make significant strides this season and that consequently we will see less ISO plays, better ball movement and overall FG% and more PPG (at least 4).
It is also crucial that our defence remains solid – as it was during some stretches last season – and picks up a bit lowering the opposition’s FG% and PPG and raising our Def RPG.
Here Josh has to try to balance his tendency to try to block all shot attempts around him with a willingness to box out opponents and protect the basket more.
Daniel
October 14th, 2009
8:43 am
Thanks for all the support on the JT-0 suggestion. It has grown on me. I do like J-Quick, but I obviously will stick with my suggestion.
Vava- man, I hope you are right.
I still say that of Marvin, Al and Josh. I think Marvin is the one to have the breakout season. Don’t get me wrong I hope they all do. But, I have been saying that if Marvin improves his aggressiveness, which Sekou talks about specifically, he will put up some great numbers. Can you imagine if he goes to the line 8 times a night! That may be the key stat for the season.
Samuel
October 14th, 2009
9:28 am
Ken,
I would never be so distorted. Aren’t you challenging them(my opinions) now.
At least you admitt you saw the gap last year. Now look at the additions these teams made compared to their losses.
As good as you say we are. I don’t think anybody here would say that adding a Shaq,Moon, Parker, and Powe wouldn’t make us better.
Carter doesn’t seem to be “hurting” Orlando so far.
Again, the Celtics may have been the team out of the Big 3 who improved “The Least”, but they still improved.
You keep bringing up Brand. The man played all of 29 games for the sixers. Give me a break.
Again, The Orlando move was risky since they made the finals but considering how bad the Lakers beat them. They probably saw that they couldn’t make that next step without changing their roster. We’ll see.
But by all means, keep challenging my opinions(if you want to call it that). I love a good challenge.
Myrak43
October 14th, 2009
9:42 am
As far as nick names go for Jeff Teague. How about Andele!Andele! or Rapid T? or Tazmanian devil and/or TAZ for short? or RoadRunner or Mr. RR for short? How about accelerate but would be spelled XLO8 or simply XL? How about Speed Racer? or Ricky Bobby? How about Ice T?
terrell barron
October 14th, 2009
9:50 am
Ramon, BK drafted the players he drafted because they were interchangable. Which means they could play multiple positions. What do you mean, “Marvin was drafted to be the pf”? No he wasn’t.
terrell barron
October 14th, 2009
9:56 am
Ramon, there’s only a few players in the entire NBA who have DOMINANT careers. Wtf?? Besides, we dont need Horford to be dominant.
niremetal
October 14th, 2009
9:59 am
Little JT-0
ILL-logical
October 14th, 2009
10:00 am
This season will be the the final one for a key component of the Hawk’s gradual climb out of the celler: Woodson’s “system”.
Woodson has had to improvise and struggle with inexperienced and very young players; washed up, nonproductive players and some guys who just filled out the roster.It is to his credit that the team and its record have improved to this point. However, there is an expectation that with experienced ,talented players(plural) that a system to utilize all of their talents and not just a couple of guys that the coach”trusts” must be in place.
So if present trends continue and absent a complete late season melt down, Woodson will be rewarded with a new deal. A deal that could become a millstone around his neck if the 2010-11 seson doesn’t deliever at least a conference finals apperance at a minimum.
Looking at the current roster, that means some major changes could be in order: Joe is a good player but can he lead a championship team; is Marvin a replacement for Joe at the 2; can Woodson delegate the offensive strategy ; will there finally be a true starting center on the roster-a player who can command the middle on both ends of the court; and ,finally, can woodson go from baby sitter to holding the Larry O’Brien trophy?
terrell barron
October 14th, 2009
10:04 am
The Truth, I told yall about Marvin’s continued improvement. He’s getting better every year. But no, nodody wanted to hear it. They were still stuck on stupid about passing on CP3 or whatever. Marvin’s going to make them all pay for it in a few years. Watch and see. Btw, haven’t seen the name “Duck” mentioned around here lately. Where ya at Rod from CP?
vava74
October 14th, 2009
10:15 am
Daniel,
I also think that Josh will get to line more if he stops jacking up jumpers and drives to the basket or stays under.
Hence, my gut feeling is that our PPG average will increase a lot more than the 4per I mentioned above which I have marked as the minimum.
Sautee
October 14th, 2009
10:21 am
Ramon asked this:
“When it comes to dominance in the NBA, name one dominant player at their position who didn’t have an athletic and physical advantage over their opposition.”
This one’s easy…………….Larry Bird
niremetal
October 14th, 2009
10:32 am
Tim Duncan, John Stockton, Bill Walton, Reggie Miller, Steve Nash, Alonzo Mourning, George Gervin, Joe Dumars, George Gervin…all got there by being smarter and more fundamentally sound than they were big or athletic.
niremetal
October 14th, 2009
10:33 am
Whoops, didn’t mean to include the Iceman twice, not that he doesn’t deserve two mentions
Fork Tongue Review Board
October 14th, 2009
10:55 am
ILL-logical
October 14th, 2009
10:00 am
The hawks havent been in the “cellar” since Woodson arrived and have established themselves as a favorite make the playoffs.
Why are there some here who intentionally spread hate and miss-information?
This comment is flag and cited as an out right slander and lie.
Lets keep it honest guys and tone down the hate blogs
Fork Tongue Review Board
October 14th, 2009
11:00 am
Upon further review, the Woodson cellar comment was taken out of context. The statement is accurate and the blog is enlightening. Please accept the boards apology.
Truth-Serum
October 14th, 2009
11:15 am
Big Ray Ive always felt that Marvin will sub-plant J J in the next three year. We often forget that Marvin, if he d stayed in college would be a rookie today. He can drawn fouls better than J J and has a shooters touch. He can play 2 or 3 naturally. The Hawks are so bless to have him and Josh as building blocks. How cool is that?
Samuel If you are saying that having Shaq here would not make us a finalist contender rather than a guaranteed second round fallout, Id have to look a lot closer to the fact. Aside from the prophet wizard guy who has foretasted that Shaq would have a poor chemistry here, I don’t think anyone feels Shaq is done or cant be a first or second option on any team. If you are asking me to choose for three years him or Horford or Paschulia, to win a championship, I think Shaq is still the force in the NBA. Between him and Howard in seven games I can guarantee one thing….Howard would lose 5-10 over that time frame. Shaq aint no joke. Rumors of his demise are GREATLY exaggerated.
Ditto on the Moon, Parker, and Powe wouldn’t make us better.
niremetal
October 14th, 2009
11:25 am
GOT IT. Here’s JT-0:
http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/4303/littlejt0fkla.jpg
Melvin
October 14th, 2009
11:29 am
Uh nire, can you put a Hawks jersey on him??? lol
Truth-Serum
October 14th, 2009
11:29 am
TIGER, Clearly Sund has made some questionable decisions. Yeah, its fair to second guess him! Good job. I think he could have sat on his hands for one more year until the contracts of speedy and acie, expired, He could have let Zaza roam or sighed him for less than 20 million especially in light of what we paid for Collins, (less than a million) whose career numbers mirror Zaza. I think we could have put ourselves in a better situation financially to pursue low post talent, which would put us in the “serious contender” inner circle.
Yes, feel free to second guess. Ignore the intolerant and verbally abusive comments that come from those whose understanding of the game is base on their feelings, not the facts or knowledge.
Good blog
niremetal
October 14th, 2009
11:34 am
Melvin,
Nah, I had a friend splice the images and I didn’t have a picture of Teague in a Hawks jersey to send. I’ll ask her to update it once there are some pictures floating around of Teague in a Hawks jersey. I should also see if she can change the letters to “JT0″ instead of “GTO.” But I figured that was a good start
Melvin
October 14th, 2009
11:39 am
Nire, cool. Hopefully Sekou will past it along to him.
Acie Law
October 14th, 2009
11:40 am
Guys, you used to be my loyal fan club now you are kissing Teague’s butt. Well, you never really finished kissing mine. So Im going to give you that chance when I finish these beans.Then I want you to hit the spot for me. Let float some images of that around In a Golden State Jersey.
vava74
October 14th, 2009
11:54 am
Does anyone knows who was (maybe everyone knows but me) or accuse himself of being the person who posted in the Hawks Hack blog during our home loss* (game 2) against Miami under the name “Rick Sund”??
* maybe during game 3 loss or in both
Although unfair in the essence, whoever that was, it was hilarious.
Truth-Serum
October 14th, 2009
12:40 pm
Truth-Serum
October 14th, 2009
11:15 am
forecast-ed
That s 5-10 pounds
Ariose
October 14th, 2009
12:41 pm
Rick Marcel, I agree. Watch out or you may get swallowed up in his suckiness…..ewww!!!!
J-Quick
October 14th, 2009
12:44 pm
*Ryan Cameron voice* “J-Smooove!!!!!!!……..from J-Quick!!!!”
I love the sound of exellent theme names in the mornin’!…
Ramon
October 14th, 2009
12:52 pm
Nire, You telling me a 7 footer who could dribble with a great mid range jumper, wasn’t athletic? When Duncan first came out of Wake Forest every one said he was a great athlete and it was proven from his swimming background. Alonzo Mourning, Gervin, Stockton and Nash are all explosive players. I never once said Al wouldn’t improve statistically. I said athletically you didn’t see much difference in his game from year one to two. And I also said there was a greater chance of him becoming an Antonio Davis type player than anything else. And that would be a great career. If you can play for over 12 seasons in this league that’s a great career. I would love to see him have an even better career than that.
vava74
October 14th, 2009
1:14 pm
JTO!… JTO!… JTO!… JTO!…
Can’t you almost hear this chant following the game winning – NBA championship winning lay up + 1 on Game 6 of the NBA Finals?
I think it sounds a lot more “beefy” than J-Quick…
Daniel
October 14th, 2009
1:18 pm
How do we decide a winner? JT0 or J-Quick. I like both, but since I came up with JT-0 then of course I am going with that one. But, then again nobody of any importance will probably care what we come up with. But, it is a fun exercise.
Nire, I couldn’t download the pic for some reason.
Daniel
October 14th, 2009
1:20 pm
Ramon- I don’t mean to sound too over the top hear. But, Al’s game reminds me of Willis Reed. I know he has a long way to go to get there. But, I see him more like Willis than Antonio.
Daniel
October 14th, 2009
1:21 pm
I meant “here”. Good grief.
Daniel
October 14th, 2009
1:22 pm
vava- what year are we going to hear that chant?
vava74
October 14th, 2009
1:22 pm
I think that we should ask Sekou to convey our suggestions to the guys and let them decide if any of the two sticks…
Maybe they have already christened him…
Ramon
October 14th, 2009
1:24 pm
Daniel, I would LOVE to see Al’s game end up on that level. I truly would love that.
Daniel
October 14th, 2009
1:27 pm
Ramon, I hear you. What do you think though. Both undersized, great work ethic, nice mid range game, both winners (you know Horf has two national titles).
vava74
October 14th, 2009
1:28 pm
Daniel, I really think we have a shot to reach the finals next year if Crawford meshes well, Teague is what it seems to be and JJ renews with us.
None of the above premises are anything out of the ordinary.
Next year the Celtics will be extremely old, Shaq will have +2 seasons (by the time we reach the playoffs – if he and Lebron stay) and the Vince experiment will be aborted in Orlando.
I sincerely don’t see anyone in a better position than we here in the East in two years’ time.
Ramon
October 14th, 2009
1:33 pm
Daniel, Willis always seemed like his movements with the basketball was just natural, like he was born with it in his hands. Too many times, Al seems uncomfortable with the ball. He has a long way to go to learning where he is on the court when he’s posting up.
GeeMack
October 14th, 2009
1:34 pm
Ken
What up Homie? Been off the blog for a while doing my homework for the season.
Let me dive right in…I think the Shaq failure in Phoenix is greatly exaggerated. Mainly because Phoenix was run & gun. Shaq will be a better fit in Clevland because they run more half court sets.
I think the gap between the big 3 in the east and the rest is still just as wide as last year. We got to remember teams like the Hawks and Washington got better by filing holes and the young players getting better, but so did Bos, Cle, & Orl. These teams were already better, and they added more experinced and talented player to a Championship caliber team already.
As you’ve pointed out before all star accolades don’t always amount to team success, but all star players that fit a systems does ala Vince.
I got to agree with Samuel. The gap is just as big as last year with Bos Cle,& Orl,and the rest of the east, but the gap between the Hawks, Washington, Chicago, Detroit, Toronto & Miami is closer than we realize.
Daniel
October 14th, 2009
1:37 pm
Did you see Al playing for his national team? He looked a lot more fluid with the ball, when he was the center of the offense.
I mean, of course, I am not saying Al is Willis, yet. But, that is the player his ceiling could be, even more so than Davis.
Daniel
October 14th, 2009
1:38 pm
GeeMack- what’s up.
I dunno, but I think you are being pessimistic. I don’t think the overall order in the East has been shuffled(but I am hopeful). But, I definitely think the Hawks are closer to 3 than they are to 5.
GeeMack
October 14th, 2009
1:41 pm
Vava74
What about the young nucleus in Chicago?
Also being that this could be JJ last year…I wonder why we are not gearing up for a champioship run now while the window is open. We took the 2008 champs to a game 7 and as a organization we did not capitalize on the oppurtunity by bringing in the talent that would take us over the top. 2 years seems like to long when we are 1 palyer away from being a legit contender.
GeeMack
October 14th, 2009
1:48 pm
What up Daniel?
I will say this if Marvin becomes more agressive offensively and avg 18 to 22 ppg. Then yes the gap will be closer to the big 3 in the east, but I really don’t see that happening.
niremetal
October 14th, 2009
2:06 pm
Ramon,
Duncan’s edge over the other people his height has never been athleticism. What’s amazing is that you’re trying to redefine “athleticism” as including ballhandling and shooting skills. In common basketball parlance, athleticism generally refers to speed, agility, jumping ability, and other ‘natural’ physical gifts. If you want to redefine it to include skills like ballhandling and shooting – which most certainly are not God-given – then I guess Brad Miller, Vlade Divac, and Arvydas Sabonis are three of the most “athletic” centers of the past 20 years. You seem to be trying to redefine “athletic” to mean “good basketball skills.” I’ve never seen anyone else equate the two terms.
Duncan has oustanding upper body strength, but he has never been quicker, faster, a higher jumper, or more “athletic” in any other traditional sense of the term than most power forwards or even most centers in the NBA today. His strengths have always been his incredible awareness, outstanding on-the-court instincts, and finely honed old school skills. Guys like Kevin Garnett, Amare Stoudamire, Lamar Odom, and even guys like Tim Thomas have always been more athletic than Duncan in the usual sense of the term, but few would argue that Duncan isn’t the better player and that he hasn’t been utterly dominant during his time in the league.
It’s also funny that you seem to be saying that Horford isn’t as athletic as most other players at his position, when quite the opposite is true – unless (again) you’re redefining “athleticism.” Horford is quite agile for someone his size, can run the floor very well for someone his size (3.37″ 3/4 court sprint), and has outstanding leaping ability (35.5″ vertical) for any size. He is undersized, but you’re one of the first people I’ve ever seen try to describe him as “unathletic,” particularly for a guy his size. His athleticism is actually what allows him to play effectively as an on-ball defender against guys a couple inches taller than him – they might be able to shoot hook shots and fadeaways over him, but they’ll never be able to go around or through him.
But hey, if you want to redefine “athleticism” so that it fits your argument that Horford isn’t athletic, be my guest. All I’ll do is make it clear that that’s exactly what you’re doing.
vava74
October 14th, 2009
2:07 pm
GeeMack,
You can’t say that the gap is too wide this year and then still ask that we go for it now. That could only be accomplished with a massive trade and I sincerely don’t like that option.
I can give you tons of reasons for us to be confident in us in two years time which do not apply for this year (some of them are wishful thinking but within the realm of possibilities):
1. The young guys’ organic growth will reach a level closer to their respective peaks in 2 years time, not now. This includes, Marvin, Al and Josh.
2. Teague’s second year should be the year in which he will take over from Bibby who, on the other hand could become a 5-star back up.
3. Crawford will be in his second year with us, fully in sync with the remaining guys (I think he will struggle this first this year, maybe even until late December).
4. After a good showing this year (going seven games in the second round or maybe even conference finals), maybe the ownership will be willing to enter into the luxury tax zone the following year and we will be able to attract an extra piece which can takes us there [I am not talking about major major free agents but high quality role players - of the level of, for instance, Battier (I'm not saying that he will be free, just giving an example) or an ageing star].
5. The only fall back on this two year theory is JJ’s renewal.
In relation to Chicago, yes, they have a good young nucleus, however, I think that their maturation is 1 – 2 years behind ours and are in a much worse situation at the C-PF spots than we are. They have a lot of perimeter options but nothing major inside.
#21=Top50,1stBallot
October 14th, 2009
2:08 pm
I agree. The “big 3″ all added starters considered upgrades to their roster of last year (to say nothing of adding role bench players themselves). We added bench players. Did we add better bench players, umm possibly, but I don’t see how that closes the gap between the “big 3″. Of course I hope it does, but to presume that, presumably excluding Bibby, our entire starting roster has a better year is a bit dubious imo people.
Why should we expect Rondo to not get better? Why should DHoward or Jameer (an all-star) not be better (by playing the whole season)? Why should [gasp] Lebron not get better? None of them are in their career peaks either and all would start across the board for our squad. Can we say that I don’t know that we can say that about Al on any of the teams or Marvin on two of the teams. Growth, improvement works both ways…..
RISE UP
Mz. Hawkdafied
October 14th, 2009
2:09 pm
JT-0 and J Quick are both good nicknames.
Al and Josh are both good, interesting to see the arguments of who is better.
Gerald Wallace is a Hawks killer.
So many technical fouls called in the game on Monday.
The Hawks jerseys look way better than the Bobcats jerseys, the pictures made them look much better than I thought.
Agree with Sekou, the arena was embarassingly empty kinda supports the argument that Atlanta isn’t a basketball city. You really didn’t need a ticket cause basically you could just sit anywhere.
The replacement refs love blowing their whistles and calling fouls.
Understood why Larry Brown lost it, I wanted to loose it the whistles were driving me crazy……………………………………………….
Keep it Hawks!
Mz. Hawkdafied
October 14th, 2009
2:10 pm
*lose
Daniel
October 14th, 2009
2:15 pm
GeeMack- I 100% agree with you that Marvin being more aggressive is the key to us moving closer(into?) the top three. I on the other hand think that we will see that this year. Did you read Sekou’s post? He is saying all the right things. Just think if Marvin gets 6-8 fouls a game! That alone will boost his average to your 18-22 points.
Mz. Hawkdafied- You don’t get off that easy, you have to choose one nickname or the other.
Ramon
October 14th, 2009
2:16 pm
Nire, I don’t know where you reading this at. I never said Horford wasn’t athletic. I said I don’t see him becoming more athletic than he is now. Sorry, I just don’t. The point I was saying with Duncan is, however athletic he was in his career, he was that athletic in his first couple of seasons in the league. And by the way, being 7 foot and being able to bring the ball up court (which he did in college) is very athletic. All the players that were mentioned, Gervin, Duncan, Dumars, and all they all had the offensive fundamentals before they entered the league. Those are the things that made them great. Horford has physical advantages as far as quickness against centers. But the things on the offensive end that most all star post players have, Horford didn’t have last season. If he has them this year, than that is great and I would love to see them. I’m not at all saying that I don’t want Horford to do good. I’m just saying I don’t see perennial all NBA in him when I look at last season.
I MUS WRITE
October 14th, 2009
2:23 pm
Lawd,can we start the dam season already…….. This guy is better than that guy…yada yada yada -Who really cares,they are on the same team and work well with each other.
Who ever said Al looks like Willis Reed needs to have their noodle checked.
I said it before but look for Orlando to be better than last year,they will be in a dog fight all year with Queen James and the boiz for that #1 spot. Carter,Anderson,Bass,Barnes is a big upgrade vs what they gave up.Ryan Anderson will emerge this year-given quality minutes,he will be 14/5 41% from 3
1.Cleveland 2.Orlando 3.Boston 4.Atlanta 5.Wizards 6.Chicago 7.Miami 8.Philli
Ramon
October 14th, 2009
2:23 pm
Daniel, the funny part about Marvin getting 6-8 more fouls is that with THIS official crew, every one may end up with 6-8 more fouls a game lol.
Daniel
October 14th, 2009
2:32 pm
IMUS- that was my noodle head! C’mon dog, you dissin’ me?
Ramon- True, so true.
Daniel
October 14th, 2009
2:35 pm
Imus- I do like the Bass addition in Orlando. Best off season free agent move. Anderson at 14/5? HMMMMM….
I think of the big three Boston is the most likely to slip.
niremetal
October 14th, 2009
2:40 pm
Ramon,
You’re all over the map, man. You’re still trying to re-define athleticism as equivalent with honed basketball skills. The three traditional offensive skills in basketball are dribbling, passing, and shooting. Those are skills that you can develop even if you’re a slow low-jumper who can’t change direction. Arvydas Sabonis brought the ball up for the Blazers quite a bit even in his last years in the NBA despite the fact that he was usually the least “athletic” player on the floor in the traditional sense of the term. Same with Vlade Divac. That’s why I brought them up before. I’m sorry, but the 34-year old models of Vlade and Sabonis were most certainly not athletic, even though they could still dribble the ball up the court and make a highlight reel pass with some frequency.
You’re right in that you didn’t say that Horford isn’t athletic, but you did say this:
In the NBA, players drastically improving usually results from more maturation of their athletic ability. Athletically, Horford is close to peaking. When it comes to dominance in the NBA, name one dominant player at their position who didn’t have an athletic and physical advantage over their opposition.
The problem is that Horford DOES have an athletic advantage over his opposition, unless (again) you redefine athleticism. Looking back over the thread, it’s pretty clear that that’s exactly what you’re doing. You say:
In the NBA, players drastically improving usually results from more maturation of their athletic ability.
Well, in the usual sense of “athleticism” that’s simply not true. Players generally peak in terms of their ability to run, jump, and change direction at a very young age – generally by the time they are 23 or 24. That’s why you see so many NBA players switch from being slashers to shooting more jumpers as they get older (Dan Majerle is the most extreme example – he went from being an athletic freak to a 3-point sniper around the age of 27). I actually would say that most NBA players make the jump from “good” to “great” by developing their finer skills (ie dribbling, passing, and shooting on offense, and tiiming and anticipation on defense) and learning how NOT to rely solely on their athleticism to get them by. Horford still has plenty of time left in which to hone those skills.
No one here is saying he’ll be a Hall of Famer. I do think he has the potential to be an All-Star, though.
Ken Strickland
October 14th, 2009
3:02 pm
GEEMACK-welcome back, it’s good to have your imput, and I hope you can stay for the longterm. We made the playoffs with a losing record of 37-45 in the 2008/9 season. We made it last yr with a 47-35 record and advanced to the 2nd rd of the playoffs, and that improvement wasn’t caused by the addition of any new players. Some FLIP lovers will say he made a tremendous difference, but I beg to differ. The loss of JChildress, a far more valuable player than Flip, contributed far more overall, which resulted in a net loss. It was the internal improvement, or organic growth(do you still like that term SAMUEL), that made the most difference and catapulted us forward. This yr, we’ll still be catapulted by that same internal improvement/organic growth, but with the addition of some serious bench depth, experience and talent.
SAMUEL-you stated that all the Hawks did was plug some holes. Well, how many Eastern conference teams will be returning their top 6 players? We’ve gone from having a thin, inexperienced and limited bench to having one of the leagues deepest, most versatile and experienced. IT’S BEEN OUR ORGANIC GROWTH THAT’S CAUSED THE ANNUAL IMPROVEMENT WE’VE EXPERIENCED OVER THE LAST 5YRS, AND NO TEAM IN THE EAST HAS BEEN ABLE TO MATCH IT. THE ONLY THING THAT WILL KEEP US FROM BEING A SERIOUS CHALLENGER FOR THE EASTERN CONFERENCE TITLE THIS YR IS THE VERY LIMITED, GUARD ORIENTED, JUMPSHOOTING, HALFCOURT ORIENTED OFF WOODSON HAS WHOLEHEARTEDLY EMBRACED. That type of OFF philosophy doesn’t take full advantage of the abundance of speed, quickness and athleticism our team possesses.
I think Woodson will do a better job of coaching this yr because he knows his HC career depends on it. Woodson’s top 7 players have returned(JJ, Smoove, Marvin, Bibby, Horford, Zaza, Evans)and Sund has stacked his bench with veteran talent and depth, so there are no more excuses to be made. Injuries are a part of the gm, and no other Eastern team is equipped to weather injuries to their key player(s)better than the Hawks. A serious injury to LeBron, PPierce or DHoward would completely derail Cleveland, Boston or Orlando. With Teague, Crawford and Joe Smith, there isn’t a starter we can’t afford to lose and not keep on ticking. If we don’t win the 3rd seed in the East, we’ll certainly close the gap that existed last yr between us and the big 3.
I LOVE THIS HAWKS TEAM AND WHAT IT’S CAPABLE OF ACCOMPLISHING!!!
Ramon
October 14th, 2009
3:17 pm
Nire, I wasn’t the one who brought up Boozer, Brand, and Duncan. Someone else pointed to how they improved when the entire time I had been saying athletically. And once again each of those players all were heavily involved in their college team’s offense. Being fluent with your movements are considered an athletic ability. Its not about the shooting and its not about the dribbling, its about the comfort you feel when doing those things. When you said Sabonys and Vlade did those things, that’s not something they didn’t do when they were 20 years old tearing up the international game.
Any coach will tell you its something that you just have or you don’t. Its hard to explain. Its the way Ridnour and Heinrich are way more skilled than Rose and Jennings. They can dribble better, shoot better, and all the other fundamentals. Yet, Rose and Jennings will always get more time over them because of the athletic ability they have that makes it seem that they’re doing those things effortlessly. You don’t hardly find a big who looks uncomfortable with the ball in his hands (when he’s not going up for a dunk) in his 2nd year in the league, and then he goes on to be a fluent offensive player. Horford will be good long as he has someone to set him up. But I don’t see Horford becoming the type of offensive player who can create for himself. And that has nothing to do with doing drills, dribbling through cones or anything.
You’re right a good career is when you can learn to not rely on the athleticism. Remember when I made those statements I was presenting why I felt Smoove is better than Al, and will continue to be. So when you came and responded, I guess I assumed you know that what the topic of my comments were. That’s why I was saying about being dominant. Now if I’m under that impression, and you’re just viewing it as my opinion on Al solely and not in that context then I would say it must have been a misunderstanding on both of our parts.
Now Al is a great worker, and very good at what he does. But at his natural position at the 4 (not the 5) I don’t see him having an athletic ability over most of the PFs in the league (Garnett, Gasol, Brand, Boozer, Bosh, Stoudemire, Dirk, and a few more) . So when I was speaking of this I was saying why I didn’t feel he would become an all star year in and year out. Each one of the PFs I mentioned when they came in (except for Garnett and Amare straight from high school) could give you at least 18-19 their rookie season and create their own offense.
Hoops
October 14th, 2009
3:18 pm
Ken Strickland,
I don’t recall you being so positive about Coach Woodson and the Hawks! Way to go! Keep up the good vibes!!!
Ramon
October 14th, 2009
3:19 pm
You knew what the topic* sorry
#21=Top50,1stBallot
October 14th, 2009
3:24 pm
ORGANIC GROWTH IS HIGHLY OVERRATED AND MYTHICAL FOR THE NBA. Every single NBA champion this decade has been a result of a significant addition to the starting lineup from the preceding non-championship roster. The only exceptions, though noteable, is the Spurs, who were never bad, they just had injuries and happened across the greatest PF of all time, and the Lakers w/ Shaq who added but still managed to change their roster every championship season. This is why there have been no repeat champs. Teams change know they have to change their starting rosters, not just their benches.
To put that in perspective, the Hawks haven’t changed their starters for coming on 2 years, bodes poorly.
And yes, I too love this team and all it’s capable of. I just realize it needs to do more to…
RISE UP
Melvin
October 14th, 2009
3:26 pm
Daniel,
After further review, I’m warming up to the Ice-T nickname for Teague that Myrak43 suggested. Especially if he hits a game winning shot like Vava74 predicted…
We may need a recount of the nickname votes… dahhh.
niremetal
October 14th, 2009
3:26 pm
Ramon,
You bob, weave, and deflect with the skill of Astro Joe. I’ll leave this topic be and “stand on my papers” as we lawyers say.
Speaking of which, where is AJ????
#21=Top50,1stBallot
October 14th, 2009
3:28 pm
*this notes the Lakers as repeat champs, but done with a different starting line-up every year.
niremetal
October 14th, 2009
3:29 pm
Melvin,
Teague plays with WAY too much emotion and verve to have “Ice” in his nickname. “Ice” is usually reserved for guys who keep that inscrutable face during games – the most famous example being Gervin. I will push JT-0 till I die, but if it’s not that, I’d go with J-Quick.
Melvin
October 14th, 2009
3:37 pm
Nire,
Good point. Just get him a nickname ASAP….
theZaZaguy
October 14th, 2009
3:39 pm
How about J-boogie?
Melvin
October 14th, 2009
3:40 pm
J-boogie….Hmmm
The Truth
October 14th, 2009
3:48 pm
The nostradamus phase of the 2009-10 season will end with preseason. As ESPN Chris Berman would say it, “that is why they play the game”
Ramon
October 14th, 2009
3:51 pm
I think the nickname should be ‘The Vision’. He’s just so fast that you think what he did was a vision not reality.
theZaZaguy
October 14th, 2009
3:57 pm
When I was at the game, I noticed that the refs looked like they were just happy to be there. Smiling and they seem to have a look of awe on their faces. One of the young ones even had friends at game waving hello before the started. I was thinking to myself, “enjoy it while you can buddy, then back to being the middle school gym teacher for you.”
hahahahahhahah
October 14th, 2009
4:19 pm
OUR ORGANIC GROWTH THAT’S CAUSED THE ANNUAL IMPROVEMENT WE’VE EXPERIENCED OVER THE LAST 5YRS
Big Nuttz
October 14th, 2009
4:28 pm
#21=Top50,1stBallot
October 14th, 2009
3:24 pm
You are batting a thousand in my book!
vava74
October 14th, 2009
4:55 pm
#21=Top50,1stBallot,
For someone carrying such an emphatic name “#21=Top50,1stBallot” and given our history with ‘Nique, you should be the last to say that we can only achieve progress via trades.
Actually, ‘Nique first witnessed the mistake of bring Mo and Theus, which completely killed our chemistry and then he was the victim himself of a trade devised to catapult the Hawks to another level…
Organic growth has not been the base for success in the NBA for the same reason why Nelson is still coaching or Isiah was hired by the Knicks a few years ago: plain lack of basketball knowledge of the people with the $$
BigTimeTECHFan
October 14th, 2009
4:56 pm
I vote for JT-ohhhhhh
Dude that sounds good.
jerrywest
October 14th, 2009
5:02 pm
At age 25 Josh will be better than Al.
At age 30 Al will be better than Josh.
At age 35 Al will play for mid-level and Josh will play in Chinese league.
At age 45 Al will be an NBA coach and Josh will be in the AA – not a high school coach, Alcoholic Anonymous.
Well at least they will be millionaires. I will be dead.
Ken Strickland
October 14th, 2009
8:31 pm
NO21=TOP50-you are a perfect example of someone desperate to make a point by weakly challenging someone else’s comments. You seem to be trying to convince yourself, as well as anyone dumb enough to believe your crap, that you actually have a clue? You either twist the facts, or someones comments, in order to make that point. THE HAWKS AREN’T A CHAMPIONSHIP CALIBUR TEAM AT THIS POINT, SO WHY TRY TO DISCREDIT THE IDEA OF ORGANIC GROWTH BEING A FACTOR IN THE HAWKS STEADY IMPROVEMENT BY COMPARING THAT GROWTH TO THE ACCOMPLISHMENTS OF CHAMPIONSHIP TEAMS LIKE THE LAKERS AND SPURS?
If ORGANIC GROWTH isn’t a factor, as you seem to think, how do you explain the Hawks going from last in the East with only 13 wins and passing all but the top 3 seeded teams? It’s not like the teams we moved ahead of didn’t draft, make FA acquisitions and trades to upgrade their roster. THE PLAYERS THEY DRAFTED AND ACQUIRED JUST COULDN’T MATCH THE OVERALL ABUNDANCE OF ATHLETICISM, VERSATILITY, ORGANIC GROWTH POTENTIAL AND TALENT OF THE YOUNG GUNS BK BROUGHT ON BOARD.
Everyone, including distractors, knows our frontline starters, Marvin, Smoove and Horford, can and likely will get a lot better. That’s especially true if Woodson modifies his OFF, and OFF philosophy, to accomodate their specific talents and skills. At least twice since the 13 win season, 60-70% of the Hawks roster has been turned over. Yet, because the core of young guns has been maintained, along with their steady improvement, both individually and collectively, it’s been possible for us to progress steadily and move past everyone except Boston, Cleveland and Orlando, with a limited bench and without making a lot of trades and/or adding a lot of star calibur FA’s. OH, and we’ve also managed to improve without adding a bonified superstar like DWade, LJames, DHoward, KGarnett or PPierce.
Sautee
October 14th, 2009
9:29 pm
“Yes, feel free to second guess.”
LOL! As long as it isn’t second guessing the COACH!
’cause THEN you’ll be hatin’.
hahahahaha
October 14th, 2009
11:45 pm
OUR ORGANIC GROWTH THAT’S CAUSED THE ANNUAL IMPROVEMENT WE’VE EXPERIENCED OVER THE LAST 5YRS- hahah Who writes this sh!t. You are funny man.Did you ever play b-bal?
Ken Strickland
October 15th, 2009
12:28 am
HAHAHAHA-ASK YOU MOTHER, SHE WAS THE PG AND MADE CERTAIN EVERYONE SCORED.
hahahahaha
October 15th, 2009
6:12 am
Ken Strickland You are a class act!
hahahahaha
October 15th, 2009
6:21 am
I guess that means no you did not play b-ball
Wink
October 15th, 2009
6:24 am
* Your Mother
Biggest Nuttz
October 15th, 2009
6:46 am
hahahahaha – I think what Ken is trying to say is the Hawks got better inspite of Woodson; he is therefore not worthy of the # 9 ranking in the coach of the year poll last year, and should be fired. I’m not ready to call Ken a hater, just sick, demented. I apologize for him for the verbal assault on your mother. Often times that’s what confused and twisted children do when they have a lot of hate and anger inside and lack the proper social communicative skills to express themselves as adults.
Do what many of us do and just look past him. For the record I don’t think he has played b-ball either.