A Blog-Z state of mind?
NEW HAWKS GUARD JAMAL CRAWFORD HAS BEEN EVERY BIT AS GOOD AS ADVERTISED IN TRAINING CAMP, AND THEN SOME. PLUS, BLOG-Z SPEAKS!
Jamal Crawford's already stirred things up in practice. Hawks fans should expect more of the same all season long from the gifted scorer and passer.
HAWKSVILLE – We’re a week into training camp and one thing is clear, this Hawks team set to take the floor this season is a much improved bunch from the one that left the floor in that series against Cleveland to end last season.
How much better is still up for debate.
But it’s clear that this team has a chance to get back to where it finished last year and perhaps beyond, based on the early vibes emanating from the Hawks’ practice court.
“This is by far the best group and the best first week of camp we’ve had in my time here,” one keen observer noted after Sunday’s practice. “Not since Steve Smith and Mookie Blaylock have we had a group like this that could get it from the first guy through 12.”
Watching Jamal Crawford explode the way he did in Sunday’s scrimmage was the first real indicator of just how deep and potentially explosive this team could be. He didn’t just attack the Blue team (starters and a couple reserves), he went directly at Joe Johnson (haven’t seen anyone do that before now either) with the scrimmage on the line and finished (Joe had an open look from the corner that could have won it for the Blue team but his jumper didn’t fall). While it was a bit of a shock to the system of those that have been watching the Hawks the past few years, Crawford didn’t seem particularly fazed by his performance. I mean, he’s not cocky in the least bit but the man knows he’s good. He knows he can score at will, regardless of who is trying to guard him. I think everyone else knows it now.
“With Jamal and Jeff Teague, we have a dynamic we haven’t had since I’ve been here,” said Hawks forward Josh Smith. “We’re bringing two guards off the bench that can score every bit as good as our starting guards. That’s a nasty group right there, when you can put your backup guards in and still keep the pressure on. If we do it right, we’re going to be coming at you from so many different angles that you’re going to need a while to figure out where it’s coming from. And hopefully by then, we’ll have shifted into another gear on you and made you think it all over again. It’s going to be fun to see us in action once we get this thing cranked up.”
Everyone seems to have an opinion. So what better time to tap our friendly neighborhood Hater of the Millennium for his take on all things Hawks? Blog-Z has been in attendance for all of the portions of camp outsiders have been allowed to view (and thanks to the Mad VP and the media alert being on red, we haven’t seen as much as we’re used to). So we asked him for some quick thoughts on camp and what it’s looked like from his perspective.
Hawks Blog: So you saw Jamal Crawford get loose Sunday, how good was he?
Blog Z: He was crazy good. But the thing he and Jeff Teague bring that no one is talking is about is that they push JJ and Mike Bibby to play at a higher level, even in practice. Bibby’s been as good as anyone in training camp. He’s shooting lights out. He’s defending and finding guys in stride and he’s leading the team the way you’d expect from a seasoned veteran. But yeah, even the hater in me can’t deny that these guards are going to make for an interesting mix. They’re just so explosive on the offensive end. And Crawford’s best and probably most underrated asset is that he’s a much more complete player than he gets credit for. It’s scary how good he is when you consider all the mess he’s taken over the years for being on crappy teams.
HB: So maybe you’re more excited about this team than you were earlier in the summer, when you said you didn’t see any major improvements and that this team has no chance of shaking up the top three of the Eastern Conference?
BZ: And maybe you’re more interested in writing scripts than you are reporting what someone actually said. Read my lips player, I remain committed to the facts. The Hawks didn’t go crazy this summer and find that missing piece to the championship puzzle. Don’t get ahead of yourself. Crawford is a monster addition. he’s going to be great in this town, on this team and in the role they have slotted for him. But he alone isn’t the answer to the bigger question of whether or not this team (as presently constituted) is capable of challenging for a top three spot. I say no.
HB: Will you at least admit that this team has a chance to shock some people this season?
BZ: I won’t admit to anything. And these “people” you’re talking about, where might they be? I saw what the national experts had to say about the Hawks this season. They don’t seem particularly convinced that this team is going to shock the world. Now one of my guys, you all know him as RA, took offense to what the experts had to say. He sent me this email Sunday:
Knocking off Miami in seven games last year wasn't enough for Josh Smith and the Hawks to convince the national pundits that they are for real.
Thanks for showing what the rest of the sports writing universe has to say about our Hawks, but in reading their…appraisals, I noticed several glaring omissions:
Ian Thomsen mentions implies that Hawks ownership is cheap and while he does add that the moves that they’ve made this offseason were all “winning moves” he does not fully explore the impact that those moves can make. For example, what is it going to mean for this team to have Crawford, who can come in and spell Joe Johnson while at the same time being able get his own shot from anywhere and set up his teammates. What is it going to mean to have Joe Smith’s experience and physical play on the roster, and Collins who gives the Hawks another big body off the bench that they just didn’t have before? I feel like those additions were simply dismissed as bargain basement pickups representing an unwillingness (or inability) of the Hawks brass to go out and get front line talent. I feel that his assessment is incomplete, at best.
As for A.J. Adande’s assertions that the Hawks don’t have star power, I beg to differ. Joe Johnson has become a perennial all-star, Mike Bibby was making his bones in the Western Conference finals when Howard was cutting his wisdom teeth, and Josh Smith is pound for pound one of the most exciting players in the game. Now, none of the aforementioned have any championships, but last time I checked neither did [Dwight] Howard or King James. Also, if the Detroit Pistons of the early 90’s taught us anything, it’s that you don’t have to have a “Superstar.” You just need depth, talent, and proper leadership. I feel that Mr. Adande is ignoring the fact that at least two of these factors, possibly three, are in place.
Of all the experts that you cited, I feel that [Yahoo! Sports' Marc] Spears was the most fair. Of course, I think that he should have reserved his statement about the Hawks not finishing strong in the playoffs. The Hawks had three starters who were either out or hobbled in the second round vs. Cleveland. To be honest, they made a much better showing in games three and four than I ever would have expected. Under the circumstances of what they were dealing with, I don’t know many teams that could have done better and very few that might have done as well.
Like I said, I don’t think that the journalism for Atlanta has been fair or balanced, but I do hope that other teams take it seriously because it would be nice to sneak up on a few teams, although I doubt very seriously that that’s going to happen…
HB: Man, you’re a complete hater. You’ve even got RA hating on the national cats. I know Michigan got popped Saturday by Michigan State an all, but can’t you let go of your personal biases long enough to talk Hawks? I mean, surely you’ve seen some things in Hawks’ training camp that please you?
BZ: You would bring up the Michigan game (ya little punk). I ought to slap the … what was the question again?
HB: Some things that please you so far?
BZ: I didn’t say this group wasn’t impressive. It’s clear they’ve got a core group of about 10 players capable of competing against anyone on a given night. They had an adequate group last year and they added a couple of good players to that mix. But I’m not ready to anoint them or anything. I’m just taking a wait and see approach to this season, like most wise observers would. A good first week of training camp has never won anything. In fact, there isn’t much this team can show me in the preseason that will sway me one way or the other. I need to see what they at the end of this season and in the playoffs. That’s when they can prove to me that they’re moving into that upper echelon. Pump your brakes son. Building all these off the wall expectations and feeding all this hype is what will land a team in the hole if things don’t start right once the real games begin.
HB: Well, what about the guys trying to snag that final roster spot. Has anyone caught your eye?
BZ: I could make a reasonable case for just about every single guy. Othello Hunter’s activity and potential make him an enticing candidate. Same goes for Frank Robinson. With Mario West I know what I’m getting, and it’s usually all good because his motor revs at all times. Courtney Sims has the size and skill set you want in a big but I don’t know if he makes sense either. Aaron Miles has probably been the most surprising guy of the bunch for me, only because I didn’t realize he was this good. And what you get in experience with Mike Wilks and Juan Dixon makes up for their lack of ideal size and bulk at the position [point guard]. The one guy that keeps coming back into my head is the big boy, Garret Siler. He’s going to find a spot somewhere, maybe not this year but eventually, and you’d hate to have him now and let him go only to see him show up a year or two now helping some other team. And with all that said, there might be a better player and a better fit that falls through the training camp crack elsewhere. In any respect, this is a good problem to have, watching eight guys scrap it out for one roster spot. Another benefit of having a quality group like this is that if you need a replacement player throughout the season for any reason, you can reach back and grab one of these guys that showed well during training camp.
HB: For some super hater, you’re not nearly as nasty as you’ve been in the past. What’s with nice routine?
BZ: There’s nothing nice going on here partner. I’m just a little under the weather right now. All this rain has me in the dumps. But I’ll be back and hating better than ever before too long.
HB: So we can hit you up in a few weeks for some post training camp assessments?
BZ: There you go making stuff up again. I didn’t say all that chump. Lose my number!
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289 comments Add your comment
dstdeelite
October 5th, 2009
9:45 am
Am I first?
jerrywest
October 5th, 2009
9:45 am
I heard from Knics fans how great Crawford could be if he isn’t the focus of the offense, but I didn’t know Teague could be so good this quickly.
dstdeelite
October 5th, 2009
9:56 am
All I can say is I’m excited about the upcoming season. I can’t wait to see Jamal in a Hawk’s uniform. I agree that he can possibly push JJ to the next level. Of all the negative things I’ve heard about JC, I truly believe that he is hungry to make the playoffs. Let’s get this thing cracking already!! Go Hawks!!
Mike N.
October 5th, 2009
10:07 am
It will be fun to watch Hawks training camp tomorrow on NBA TV. Sekou…we have heard so much about how the backcourt is doing and how Josh and Al are becoming beast down low. But havent heard much about Marvin the first week of camp?? Is he getting lost in the mix or is he being aggressive on the offensive end now. Have you seen or heard major improvement out of him?
Sekou Smith
October 5th, 2009
10:25 am
Marvin’s looked great Mike. Woody said something about him in a notebook from over the weekend. He’s been really good. He was really good in the Sunday scrimmage.
Mike is back
October 5th, 2009
10:31 am
BZ and HB, GREAT STUFF!!
Thanks, for the plug on Siler…I think he will turn up on some body’s roster…everyone loves a workhorse…especially a Big workhorse…they are hard to find.
Given your assessment…I think with a guy like Siler you lock him down to a contract even if you have to expand to 14 men roster. Send him to D League let him play or dress him out in street clothes and let him interact with the asst. coaches and vet Bigs while he’s watching the game…this could help accelerate his growth…he could be ready to go in a emergency backup role when the playoff rolls around…should the need arise.
I think you got to give a kid like this a chance if you are the Hawks…Bigs don’t get no cheaper than this!!!!!
GO SILER AND GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
macaroni tony
October 5th, 2009
10:32 am
So Sekou,
Do you think that MW picked up his defense to guard the three, so JJ & JS can concentrate on their own man. I am looking forward to this season.
swatguy
October 5th, 2009
10:39 am
Morning SS (and BZ),
If ASG doesn’t pony up to fill the roster to 15, then they are cheap. We by all accounts have talent in camp for slots 13,14 and 15. With Mo, Joe, Jamal, Joe Smit, Jason and Randy expiring, why risk missing two guys (or three) by limiting the roster to 13? Thats crazy.
Sund has to be at least thinking about player movement possibilities with the core too.
richbrave
October 5th, 2009
10:57 am
niremetal:
In response to your query as to who will play defense on the WIZ this year OBERTO, HAYWOOD, McGUIRE, BUTLER at times and ———–. Maybe FOYE or MILLER. Don’t know those players’ defensive skills. Everybody else will be looking to pad stats IMO. CRITTENTON appeared to be the only player in the back-court willing to share the ball and play a team game. YOUNG’s is a series of one-on-one moves. JAMES is just me,me,me. I’m sure MILLER and FOYE were brought in to light fires under both of them. But defensively, I’m clueless and I’ll bet the ‘ZARDS will be too when the chips are down.
The HAWKS on the other hand appear to be much improved from the days of Dr. MARY B’s old fab five. The $$$$ appeared. and management came through. Now the coach has to get the most out of the players, and I think the HAWKS fly into the Eastern finals.
Mike N.
October 5th, 2009
10:59 am
Swat Guy…You have to leave at least one open roster spot in case we make any trades during the season. There is no reason for us to fill all 15 roster spots to start the season.
richbrave
October 5th, 2009
10:59 am
BIG RAY:
Thanks for the shout out and the low-down. Hang tough out there keeping us citizens safe for democracy. We DO appreciate it.
Jay
October 5th, 2009
11:00 am
Before last season began, “experts” said the Hawks would be lucky to get the 8th playoff spot. So the Hawks had a 47-35 season and advanced to the 2nd round of the playoffs before losing to Cleveland; to the surprise of those “experts”.
So, before this season begins, the same “experts” say the Hawks, who’ll bring back the same starting five while improving the depth of their bench (adding veterans Jamal Crawford, Joe Smith and Jason Collins as well as rookie Jeff Teague to go with Maurice Evans and Zaza Pachulia) will be no better than the 4th playoff seed. If past performance indicates future activity, the Hawks will surprise those experts and either advance to the Eastern Conference Finals or give a much better acquittal of themselves in the second round.
Blog-Z is right—its way too early to drink the championship Kool-aid. On paper, this team is better/deeper than last year’s team. But, on paper, so are Boston, Cleveland, Orlando, Washington and Toronto. That’s why they play the games!
Three quick hits:
First, since big men who can play are hard to find, the Hawks should keep Courtney Sims and Garret Siler; as eventual replacements for Jason Collins and Randolph Morris.
Second, does Sekou or Blog-Z think Seattle native Crawford can help Seattle native Marvin Williams become more assertive on the Court?
Third, With a backcourt (Bibby, JJ, Crawford, Teague & Evans) that’s set for years (Yes, JJ will be back), a Center (Al Horford) who’s a beast with a ton of depth (Pachulia, Collins, Morris) behind him, a SF (Williams) who’s a solid, if not spectacular, consummate team player (backed-up by Johnson and Evans) and the Smiths; Josh (a freak of nature-in a good way) and Joe (the solid, veteran back-up) at PF, what do Sekou and/or Blog-Z think is the next move? By that I mean who else—or at what position—does this team needs to legitimately compete for a championship?
Ernest
October 5th, 2009
11:12 am
Thanks for the info Sekou! Like many Hawks fans, I am excited about this upcoming season. Do you anticipate blogging live from any of the preseason games, giving fans your thoughts on what you are seeing?
jerrywest
October 5th, 2009
11:19 am
Great post Jay.
Sekou, as Jay asked – what do we need? It seems like everyone improved a lt.
Crawford is awesome. Teague is ready to contribute right away. Marvin & Bibby having great camp. Josh not shooting from outside. Horford has improved a lot. Who is not doing great?
swatguy
October 5th, 2009
11:28 am
Mike N.
Thats normally a good ideal. However, we have 6 expiring contracts on the roster.Having expirings give about the same flexibilty as an open slot. And we have SIX(or 5 considering Jamal). Othello, Silar and Robinson seem to be the type talent you want to keep in the organization. I don’t know if Collins and/or Joe Smith will be a Hawk next year ig a Silar/Othello/Randy develop as they may. We need a third PG (or combo) for sure and Robinson could be as valuable in the organization as you may need in a trade in February (or before).
niremetal
October 5th, 2009
11:32 am
Rio and Othello or Rio and Siler.
niremetal
October 5th, 2009
11:35 am
Swatguy,
More importantly, we need to keep a roster spot open in case someone gets waived and becomes available for us to sign mid-season, like Cassell/Brown for the Celtics a couple years ago, Gooden for the Spurs last year…those are just the ones off the top of my head. Playoff-bound teams nearly always keep a roster spot open heading into the season. Why would they burn their last roster spot on a training camp guy when there’s a very good chance a rotation player will become available mid-year? The Hawks are finally in the realm of teams that can start thinking that way.
A Tribe Called Quest
October 5th, 2009
11:43 am
Another blog from Sekou praising every player on the team as if they are All-Stars.
You could put Matt Freije on this squad and we’d hear about how he’s shooting lights out and better than Larry Bird.
I find it amazing people keep commenting about JCraw’s passing when the guy almost averaged as many APG as our starting PG last year
swatguy
October 5th, 2009
11:44 am
We very well may have 10 rotational guys now. Apparently the other two (randy and Collins) have situational talents. I do not believe we will need to “pick up” a rotational gut unless three guys get injured long-term. What we may burn is talent on the end we wish we may have next year. If an Othello, Silar, Robinson et. al. can continue to develop “in the system”, it would be more valuable than to beat the bushes in February.
A Tribe Called Quest
October 5th, 2009
11:47 am
“With Mario West I know what I’m getting, and it’s usually all good because his motor revs at all times. ”
What are you getting? Poor free throw shooting (can’t make any), a flawed jumpshot, and an undersized 6″3 (he’s NOT 6″5) guard for the 1 million QO?
swatguy
October 5th, 2009
11:48 am
We very well may have 10 rotational guys now. Apparently the other two (Randy and Collins) are needed situational talents. I do not believe we will need to “pick up” a rotational guy unless three guys get injured long-term. What we may wind up burning is talent on the end of the bench we wish we may have next year. If an Othello, Silar, Robinson et. al. can continue to develop “in the system”, it would be more valuable than to beat the bushes in February.
A Quest Called Tribe
October 5th, 2009
11:50 am
SEKOU SUCKS. RICK SUND SUCKS. EVERY PLAYER ON THE HAWKS SUCKS. MODERN HIP HOP SUCKS.
I’M STILL PISSED OFF THAT THE HAWKS DIDN’T SIGN GORTAT, GOODEN, WARRICK, POWE, WILCOX, RATLIFF, RASHEED, VILLANUEVA, AND OBERTO. HOW COULD WE LET THEM SLIP THROUGH OUR FINGERS? ASG WAS JUST TOO CHEAP TO SIGN THEM.
I WILL NEVER BE HAPPY UNTIL OUR ROSTER CONSISTS OF 14 MEDIOCRE BIG MEN PLUS JOSH SMITH AND UNTIL WE FIRE RICK SUND AS GM AND REPLACE HIM WITH Q-TIP.
fat joe
October 5th, 2009
11:55 am
Teague will be the best PG in the NBA.
fat joe
October 5th, 2009
12:01 pm
A Quest Called Tribe: YOU SUCK!!!
niremetal
October 5th, 2009
12:05 pm
Swatguy,
Odds are that at least 1-2 rotation players will get hurt and that Woody will prove unwilling to play training camp guys in their place. We’ve seen it happen many times before. It came back to kill us last year when 3 of our starters were hobbled late in the season and in the playoffs, but Woody still rode them 40 minutes a night because he didn’t trust the young and untested players.
Filling all 15 roster spots now would be foolish. Undrafted training camp guys rarely become rotation players, and odds are that NONE of the 8 guys we’re talking about will ever crack an NBA rotation (check out past training camp rosters if you think that’s an exaggeration). It’s not like these guys are in imminent danger of getting signed by other teams, or else they wouldn’t be in training camp without a contract, just trying to scrape the 13th or 14th spot on the team. Giving guaranteed contracts to three of them before the season even starts is not a move that a team trying to move up in the playoff ranks makes.
If one of these guys is tearing up the D-League, we can sign him to a couple 10-day contracts then to see how he does in the NBA and then sign him for the rest of the season if he looks good, like we did with Jeremy Richardson 2 years ago. But even Jeremy is now out of the NBA. Why would you want to spend our final roster spot on one of these guys (who all 30 teams passed on in the draft and didn’t sign after summer league) before you even see them in a regular season NBA game?
Sign 2, and leave a roster spot open so we have some flexibility in case we get hit with a rash of injuries this winter. There are plenty of examples of teams that face that situation every year, which is why most contending teams leave the 15th roster spot open when the season starts.
fat joe
October 5th, 2009
12:05 pm
CRAZY MONKey
niremetal
October 5th, 2009
12:10 pm
I should modify that to “none of the 6 undrafted guys.” Dixon and Wilks obviously have already been NBA rotation players – although I think the odds are good that neither will be a rotation player again.
fat joe
October 5th, 2009
12:11 pm
1. Celtics
2. Cavs
3. Hawks
4. Magic
A Quest Called Tribe
October 5th, 2009
12:18 pm
NIREMETAL YOU SUCK, THE HAWKS SUCK, OUR BENCH SUCKS & MODERN HIP HOP SUCKS!
CRAZY MONkey
October 5th, 2009
12:21 pm
?
CRAZY MONkey
October 5th, 2009
12:25 pm
Cool
Hoops
October 5th, 2009
12:33 pm
nire is right! Sign two and leave one roster spot open. It gives you flexibility for later in the season if an opportunity to get a better player comes along. It’s not like we are going to play the 15 roster spot player anyway!
Have I missed something? Where is Stackhouse? Sign Stackhouse and Siler and let’s play some Hoops!!!
rms
October 5th, 2009
12:44 pm
Jamal Crawford! Whatever, I bet thats the same thing said about him when he was at Golden State. Looks good in training camp but when the season starts, its the same ol’ same ol’. And what about Teague, will he be an elite PG soon or just a journeyman backup guard that plays on 12 different teams in 15 years??
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October 5th, 2009
1:15 pm
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Chris
October 5th, 2009
1:51 pm
Othello Hunter has that motor, always hustling and running the floor. Defense with a mid range J. stick with that kid!
Doug
October 5th, 2009
2:05 pm
rms: Same ole’ thing vis-a-vis Crawford?? He has played for teams that suck. He has averaged 20ppg…over 5 apg…has scored 50 with three different teams. To begin with same ole’ will be really good…but he will have a better year than even those because he is playing with a really good team in a supporting role. Watch and see
I MUS WRITE
October 5th, 2009
2:05 pm
Good stuff Sekou……… I would keep Siler/Hunter or Sims/Hunter. Mario has a nonstop motor,but what else does he bring to the table. This is the NBA not a rec league -I mean u have to have sum sort of skill to play in this league.Tribe is dead on,I’ve talked to Mario plenty of times and we are exactly the same height -with that said at 6′4 he is undersized for the pg/sg spots.So i say lets end the expirement/feel good story
Hunter should be kept around becuz if he keeps developing -we will have our backup Sf once Mo leaves.
1.Cleveland
2.Orlando…..I just think they will be better with Vc,Bowen,Bass,Healthy Nelson
3.Atlanta
4.Boston
Cant wait to see this line up…… JC,JJ,Marvin,Smoove,Horford or
Teague,JC,JJ,Marvin,Horford
Tribe come’on man …sum of those guys were overpaid -the only guys off your list i wanted was Charlie V and wilcox……… Charlie V has a nice offensive game but is kinda suspect on D.-We have enough perimeter O. Wilcox is cool but I question the mans desire sumtimz-he has all the tools but has been mediocre through out his career-HEART I would ride with Joe Smith over those 2 for what this team needs.
Hawks #3 seed this year -u heard it here first
I MUS WRITE
October 5th, 2009
2:06 pm
undersized for the 2 and not enuff skill(ball handling/passing) for the PG.
PDubATL
October 5th, 2009
2:28 pm
Sekou, is Sund set on having only a 13-player roster? I understand the need to save the 15th spot but don’t see why he or the ASG wouldn’t want to use a minimum contract to hold onto a potential talent like Siler at 14th spot.
I MUS WRITE
October 5th, 2009
2:33 pm
Nir- Why do u keep harping undrafted status. Who the hell cares….. Hunter wasnt drafted but he is becoming a player and keeps getting better. Siler is a huge guy who just needs seasoning-with that kind of size strength and desire he may be what we need in a couple yrs.
O by the way the guy who was tearing it up in the D League is in camp with us HELLO Sims= 20/10 D League MVP
Siler or Sims and Hunter……I will agree we need that open spot just incase, but even if we lose a cupl guys to injury we still have a solid 8 man rotation which is what we played with all of last year.
jerrywest
October 5th, 2009
2:43 pm
I MUS Write,
If someone was not drafted, it usually means he either has insufficient talent or has not been trained enough in the formative years of his life. Either drawback is almost impossible to overcome.
Daniel
October 5th, 2009
2:46 pm
IMUS- I like your picks. I still have our Hawks as a 4th seed, but I see Boston as the most likely to slip from the top three.
Melvin
October 5th, 2009
2:58 pm
Why wait to see who gets drop from someone else team when you have a talented vet like Stackhouse waiting to get pickup? I say we signed Stackhouse/Siler and let’s play some ball…
Sekou Smith
October 5th, 2009
3:07 pm
From what I can tell, it’s going to be 13 for sure on the roster. With the Hawks’ history of playing such a tight rotation under Woodson, it’s hard for me to justify keeping a 14th. It’s strictly for show if you keep that many. It’s probably wiser to leave some room in case you want to make a deal later or add a specific piece as the season goes on.
I’m sorry to inform anyone in need of some hate that most guys on most teams give a good showing of their abilities during training camp. That’s why it’s camp and not the regular season, Tribe. I’ll roast someone after they play someone that doesn’t have on a Hawks uniform.
As far as what the Hawks need, it’s clear to me that a swingman that can work behind Marvin Williams and Josh Smith (in particular) is what best serves this team right now. But security at point guard will be costly later in the season. If you snag a third PG you like early, you don’t have to push that panic button later.
Dan
October 5th, 2009
3:15 pm
I think they should sign Stackhouse. It makes a lot of sense. He would not have to play major minutes, he can score in a lot of ways, and has experience. If the money is right, should be a no brainer. Who knows if the money will be right, though.
I am really pulling for Mario West, but if I had to bet, my money is on Siler getting that last spot. He is big and looks like he might have the ability to contribute in the post. If nothing else, he could bang some heads against thug teams like Boston…would love to see him layout a clown like Perkins.
Dan
October 5th, 2009
3:15 pm
Ohh…one more thing, Sekou…GO GREEN!!! Did it to ‘em again!!
Craig
October 5th, 2009
3:16 pm
Sekou, you’re nuts. Blog Z, you’re nutser.
The Truth
October 5th, 2009
3:27 pm
jerrywest
Your comment:
If someone was not drafted, it usually means he either has insufficient talent or has not been trained enough in the formative years of his life. Either drawback is almost impossible to overcome.
What about these players (just to name a few)?
Ben Wallace
Bruce Bowen
Brad Miller
Udonis Haslem
Damien Wilkins
Earl Boykins
ÛFØ
October 5th, 2009
3:42 pm
v!vººv!v×¢§«g.¤›»
Hoops
October 5th, 2009
3:44 pm
If Sekou is right and the Hawks are only going to sign one more player before the regular season starts, it has to be Stackhouse! He can give us that Vet. off the bench that can make a big difference in a tight game. Sign him for 1 year/Vet Minimum. I really do hate to not sign Siler though!
The Truth
October 5th, 2009
3:47 pm
Sekou
This comment:
it’s clear to me that a swingman that can work behind Marvin Williams and Josh Smith (in particular) is what best serves this team right now.
Just curious, what player did we invite to camp matched that description?
ÛFØ
October 5th, 2009
3:49 pm
ßëçàrËfúl whã+ ¥øÛ Wî§H før« . »
Mike N.
October 5th, 2009
3:53 pm
Truth…I was asking myself the same question. Seems the only one even close is Hunter although he is more a PF then SF. Maybe Robinson but I have never seen him play so couldn’t tell you what kind of offensive game he has. And if this is the case then it gives the Bigs like Siler or SIms even less a chance of making the team if we are only going to keep one guy. It will be interesting.
niremetal
October 5th, 2009
3:53 pm
As far as what the Hawks need, it’s clear to me that a swingman that can work behind Marvin Williams and Josh Smith (in particular) is what best serves this team right now.
Hmmmmmm…Othello Hunter, anyone?
The Truth,
I listed some of the same people when we had this discussion earlier, and I tried to list all the undrafted rotation players who have emerged in the past decade.
But it’s both amusing and misleading that you say “just to name a few.” The list is 10 guys or less, even if you’re being generous. You left off Jannero Pargo, Kelenna Azibuke, Raja Bell (1999), and Chris Andersen (1999). Wallace and Bowen turned pro well over 10 years from now. Technically, Boykins and Miller are both from 11 years ago, but I’ll include them for the sake of argument. Foreign players operated under such a complicated set of rules with respect to the draft before the most recent CBA that they’re a whole different discussion (especially since none of the guys in the Hawks camp is an overseas player).
We’re talking about 8-10 guys from the last decade. That means that of all of roughly 150 undrafted players who show up for minicamp and training camp each year, about 1 per year will become a rotation player at some point in their NBA careers. And note that most of them only become rotation players on bad teams.
So listing 6 guys isn’t “just to name a few.” It’s naming almost all of them.
In any case, no one’s saying we should cut ALL of these guys. But I would hesitate to sign more than one, and I sure as hell wouldn’t sign three. What jerrywest said was totally accurate – when a player goes undrafted it usually means they lack either the talent or the training, and in either case, the almost never overcome those drawbacks and become rotation players in the NBA.
ÛFØ
October 5th, 2009
4:00 pm
Î §££N thê fütür£ & JJ Wî// plÅÿ før Thë KnîçKs
ÛFØ
October 5th, 2009
4:07 pm
!Thê WØrlD wïLL £nd DÊç. 2, 2012!
thehawksleftthenest
October 5th, 2009
4:10 pm
sorry but we are still not better than the top 3 in the east fat joe so dont count on that… but i think were a solid lock for 4th place
Black Sheep
October 5th, 2009
4:18 pm
Tribe – You owe me money
The Jungle Brothers
October 5th, 2009
4:19 pm
Tribe – U Suck
cp
October 5th, 2009
4:32 pm
No more Mario. He is an undersized sg who cant shoot, dribble, or hit free throws. The feel good story faded away last year. Time to move on from the kid. Hunter and Siler and call it a day.
Sekou Smith
October 5th, 2009
4:33 pm
Your question has already been answered Truth. Don’t forget that NBA TV (and NBA.com) will be at practice tomorrow with live looks at the happenings. And Woody promised a twist for the Blue-White scrimmage tomorrow that could shake things up a bit. I’m going to remind him to stick to it tomorrow morning.
rich
October 5th, 2009
4:38 pm
I liked Mario untill the playoffs last year when he became a Libility with the injuries . Other teams didn’t guard him because wasn’t going to shoot. Sign Hunter for the Roster . Sign Siler stick him in D league for the year .
I agree with I mus write on Standings . I see Boston finishing behind Atlanta , age is going to catch up with them.
The Truth
October 5th, 2009
4:49 pm
niremetal
If you are going to jump on the “just to name a few”
who said anything about the “last decade”
Also:
“Hmmmmmm…Othello Hunter, anyone?”
I had the same thoughts as Mike N. about him
Jerry Stackhouse...
October 5th, 2009
4:52 pm
If the Hawks are serious about a Championship doesn’t it make sense to grab this veteran All-star while availabe? He apparently still has alot left – after raving reviews from Hawks pick-up camp.
Isn’t there a need for a backup 3? Right now Marvin is the only true SF on the team. Certainly, regular minutes are scarce but its the playoff run we need to concern ourselves about. Last season, we got nicked and threw up the white flag. Yes, it was very GAY and I would like to spare myself from that type of exhibition again.
Celts, Cavs, Spurs, Lakers, Mavs, etc. always find room for former All-star veterans – just for that reason – they expect to go far and they know they’ll need quality play down the stretch.
For the same reasons we like Joe Smith, we oughtta love Stackhouse.
jerrywest
October 5th, 2009
4:53 pm
Minutes behind Marvin (at small forward): Josh, Mo Evans, JJ, Joe Smith.
Minutes behind Josh (at power forward): Horford, Marvin, Joe Smith, Zaza.
Minutes behind Horford (at center): Zaza, Joe Smith, Jason Collins.
Minutes behind Bibby (at point guard): Crawford, JJ, Teague.
Minutes begind JJ (at shooting guard): Crawford, Mo Evans.
In every position we have at least 3 other guys who can really play. Do we? Oh no!!! At shooting guard we have only 2. One of them is a defensive liability and the other one is an offensive liability. They are both got something missing.
Looking at the above list tell me who fits in better with the Hawks than Stackhouse. We can have him at Veteran minimum and he will make us so much superior on the road. Who else is there?
jerrywest
October 5th, 2009
4:56 pm
I saw the lakers and boston practices.
Boston looks professional and they really want it. Rondo looks like he gained a lot of muscles. I still think this team will be devastated by injury by the playoffs.
Can’t wait to see Hawks practice tomorrow.
PDubATL
October 5th, 2009
4:58 pm
I’ll have to agree to disagree on carrying 13+ on the roster. Sure, money is tight and even minimum contracts cost something, but the 13th and 14th spots can be swapped situationally. I hope we’ll sign a swingman to back up Marvin/Mo/JSmoove (Stack, Hunter or Green 800k!!!) and a biggun (Siler). Siler would primarily be used to toughen guys up in practice (which from a developmental standpoint for Siler is probably better than the D-League) and may see some limited minutes against Shaq/Howard.
jerrywest
October 5th, 2009
5:02 pm
We are one JJ or Marvin injury away from exposing our butt$ at SG & SF positions. Just get another 2 way player Jerry Stackhouse, and he wil make us scary good.
The Truth
October 5th, 2009
5:09 pm
PDubATL
Good point
Karry
October 5th, 2009
5:37 pm
Best Crawford Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ3nxkycszw
Brian
October 5th, 2009
5:51 pm
I think the last final roster spot should go to Frank Robinson. This guy can flat out play basketball. He has tenacious D, his energy on the court is contagious and it’s hard not to love watching him play, basically he can do it all. I’m a huge Hawks fan, and I would love to see this guy make the team. He deserves more credit.
rms
October 5th, 2009
5:53 pm
DOUG: Maybe I am wrong about Crawford (I certainly hope so), its just so easy to get caught up in the preseason hype that I dont wont to be let down when we get deep into the regular season. What I really wont to know is if Horford postup game has improved to the point that he can be a force down low. I am not really hearing that and it has me worried a bit.
Barry
October 5th, 2009
5:54 pm
“SHOCK THE WORLD, BABY!! SHOCK THE WORLD!!!!!
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THIS IS A SECRET FROM HAWK FAN. TELL EVERYBODY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
………………………….”SHOCK THE WORLD!!!!!……………….
Doug
October 5th, 2009
6:09 pm
rms: I think you will be surprised and pleased with Crawford–As to AH and his post up game…that is going to be a more long term project I fear…it is probably just as or more important that he become more consistent at the 15-17 ft J…which I think reports are more positive in that direction. For those who think Boston will slip…I fear you are really reaching…went to camp last week and they are REALLY focused and Rasheed looks really good! Garnett is on an absolute mission…now their age and injury propensity could be their undoing but as it stands they are really, really good!!
A Thinking Fan
October 5th, 2009
6:10 pm
When’s game time?
ÛFØ
October 5th, 2009
6:58 pm
Game time:
pre season: Oct. 23 on ESPN
Season: Oct. 28 vs Pacers on fsn or sportsouth
ÛFØ
October 5th, 2009
7:04 pm
» HÄwk§ vs Ørlåndø «
Øçt. 23
Øn £spn
ÛFØ
October 5th, 2009
7:12 pm
Tribe
¥öû sûçk!
Sêkôü Ïs th£ bèst wrïtêr!
The Truth
October 5th, 2009
7:15 pm
niremetal
I wasn’t kidding when I said “just to name a few”. Here is a list of undrafted NBA players from just the period 1993-2007 to add to my previous list.
By the way, your beloved player Mo Evans is also on the list. What a coincidence.
ÛFØ
October 5th, 2009
7:18 pm
Sekou:
Can you tell me if you think the hawks should trade JJ? I think they should.
ÛfØ
October 5th, 2009
7:24 pm
ßƤº»
Mz. Hawkdafied
October 5th, 2009
7:30 pm
The Hawks and Orlando can’t both be in the top three because they are in the same division. The top three positions belong to those teams who win the division. For the Hawks to get a top 3 spot they are gonna have to focus on having a better record than Orlando, Washington, Charlotte, and Miami. And if the Hawks want to have a top 1 or 2 spot then they would have to focus on having a better record than the other 14 teams in the eastern conference, particularly Cleveland and Boston since most assume they will be holding those spots. Long story short, Orlando and Hawks will never be in the top three together unless one team moves to another division.
Melvin
October 5th, 2009
7:32 pm
From Hoopshype:
“While Stackhouse worked out with the Hawks late in the summer – to rave reviews from beat writer Sekou Smith – Atlanta was never a very serious option for him. There was some contact with Houston, according to Stackhouse, but the Tar Heel is mostly looking to join a contender, which obviously the Rockets are not at this point.”
http://blogs.hoopshype.com/blogs/sierra/2009/10/05/stack-not-ready-to-retire/
Sekou, can you tell Sund that the Hawks Fans are screaming for them to sign Stackhouse….
Mz. Hawkdafied
October 5th, 2009
7:34 pm
Although I want to see the Hawks destroy the Celtics this season, I’ll be a much happier fan seeing them be the top dog in the SE Division. Orlando, Washington, Miami, and Charlotte must be defeated.
ÛfØ
October 5th, 2009
7:36 pm
Gøød ïnfô thrüth
Melvin
October 5th, 2009
7:46 pm
Pretty impressive link Truth. Your move Nire….
niremetal
October 5th, 2009
7:46 pm
The Truth,
Um…since when do I love Mo Evans?
I was using the last decade as a convenient frame of time, and stretched it to 11 years just to make the point. Yes, I missed Mo Evans. I also missed Ronnie Price. Whoops. That makes it 12 rotation players instead of 10. Wow, incredible comeback. My whole argument just unraveled with that startling revelation.
Look at that list again. It’s not a list of rotation players. It seems to be just a list of guys who made NBA rosters that were undrafted. My point was tell me how many of them became rotation players – ie guys who played regular minutes over the course of a full season (and even that is a minimalist definition…or else you’d have to say that guys like Hanno Mottola and Roshown McLeod were “rotation players”). Because I can tell you by no stretch of the imagination are Donnell Taylor and Alan Anderson rotation players. In fact, here is Donnell Taylor’s career stats page:
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/donell_taylor/career_stats.html
That’s right. He never played in a single NBA game. So clearly, making that list you sent me is no big accomplishment.
Why don’t you go after the point of my argument instead of the details. I’ll be REALLY generous this time to make the point. Let’s say that in the past 15 years, 45 undrafted players have become rotation players – that’s DOUBLE the proportion that I gave before and probably exceeds the actual proportion by a good margin (considering that that list you sent only includes 76 players, and a quick glance will show that most of them were NOT rotation players). That means that 2 players each year out of ALL the undrafted rookies who show up to camp across the NBA end up EVER being a rotation player in the NBA. I’ll be generous AGAIN and say that each NBA team brings an average of 2 undrafted rookies to their training camp each year. That’s 60 undrafted rookies every year, 2 of whom will become rotation players at some point.
Why on earth would we then want to burn THREE roster spots this year when the odds of each of them ever becoming an NBA player is 1 in 30 and the odds of them being a rotation player for a good team are even lower?
niremetal
October 5th, 2009
7:49 pm
Actually, that’s triple the proportion I gave before, not double (I switched and forgot to update before I hit send). The numbers then scale down to 3 per year and 1 in 20 instead of 1 in 30. But the overall point, I hope, is clear…
james
October 5th, 2009
7:52 pm
RMS- Crawford never went through training camp with the Warriors he left the knicks (mid November) who he helped to be above .500 for the first time in about 4 years to a GS team who was below .500 already .
niremetal
October 5th, 2009
7:55 pm
Heh…sloppy work by me on Donell Taylor too. He played 2 seasons for the Wizards, playing in 51 and 47 games and averaging about 8.5 minutes per game total. Still not a rotation player, but he did at least get into some games. But again…the overall point is why hang onto these guys when the odds are overwhelming that they will peak at the level of a Donell Taylor (or less) when we could leave the roster spot open in case we get nailed with injuries and can pick up a cheap veteran on the market?
niremetal
October 5th, 2009
8:01 pm
And finally, I should point out that a disproportionate number of the guys on Truth’s list who were rotation players got drafted in the early-to-mid 90’s. Now that scouting is such a refined art and is so intertwined with the personnel side of the organization, you see fewer and fewer guys who go undrafted “slip through the cracks” to become relevant in the NBA. That’s why as time goes on, we see fewer and fewer late 2nd round and undrafted players ever making a dent in the NBA.
ÛfØ
October 5th, 2009
8:37 pm
niremetal Î çän têll Ÿøû tr¥ tøo hård tø söûnd smãrt.
Ariose
October 5th, 2009
8:47 pm
……just bringing an old point back up. but y’all know Tayshaun Prince is on the Block in Detriot right? They drafted 3 SF’s this summer, and I don’t know how they would go about trading Rip. They also need more beef. I say we sign a couple centers and use em’ in a deal….just an unimportant thought…
richbrave
October 5th, 2009
9:00 pm
SEKOU:
I really hate writing this. You will be able to pick up a great future PG if you just wait a bit. I think the WIZARDS are gonna’ dump JAVARIS CRITTENTON after camp, or offer him around. Just a hunch at this point, but they’ve got seven guards now, and his is the least expensive out at 1.477 million with club option in 2010/11. DIXON’S contract is up, and he’s gone. There’s sixteen in camp. VINCENT GRIER is trying to beat out PAUL DAVIS for the fifteenth spot. I’m betting neither makes the final roster. I don’t see the ‘ZARDS keeping but thirteen with the payroll they have. They need tax relief, and I think they’ll take the hit to get some much needed breathing room.
The Truth
October 5th, 2009
9:03 pm
niremetal
So I don’t drift into topics outside of the original discussion which I posed to jerrywest:
“If someone was not drafted, it usually means he either has insufficient talent or has not been trained enough in the formative years of his life. Either drawback is almost impossible to overcome.”
I was just making the point that there have been (and is) a good share of undrafted NBA that have played in the NBA. The suggestion was that some perceived drawback of UFA players made it almost impossible for them to have an NBA career. This list suggests otherwise. Regarding the new discussion that you raise, (How many UFA players were/are rotational players) I find that to be interesting as well. It would be good information to know and certainly worth checking into. That would be a good exercise for both of us to check out. It is hard to tell without doing some digging from this list.
As far as whether we should obtain 2 or 3 UFA players to fill-out the roster, I’m actually on the fence about that. Other then Mario, my knowledge of these players is mostly based on Sekou’s input. So I have no direct sense of these players’ real value. I could see a case for 2 and even for 3 depending on how good they are. We know how expensive the Bigs are on the market, so if we could get 3 undiscovered diamonds on the cheap then why not? I did say diamonds, so anything less is a case for less. I really don’t know the players well enough to judge.
I will be attending the preseason game on Wednesday so hopefully I will see things for myself and get to know these players better if they play.
i_am_soulstar
October 5th, 2009
9:13 pm
i think Mario West brings a lot of intangibles.. every team needs that high energy guy. But man, what is stopping us from just signing Stackhouse? We’d truly have the depth to compete with the Big 3
Sekou Smith
October 5th, 2009
9:22 pm
I don’t think they should do anything of the sort UFO. Trade JJ for what?
Melvin
October 5th, 2009
9:24 pm
Josh did say he was going to stop shooting 3’s. Here’s the proof..lol
http://www.nba.com/hawks/photogallery/2009_training_camp_day4.html?curPhoto=7
Sekou, does josh jumper/ball handling looks improved?
niremetal
October 5th, 2009
9:47 pm
The Truth,
Your last post takes the cake in this thread. Better reasoned than any of mine on this subject.
I guess my point is that the odds of us discovering any diamonds are extraordinarily low…more often than not, the undrafted ones turn out to be cubic zirconium
.
Also, not a major point, but worthy of note – the only players on that list who went to Hawks training camp were Esteban Batista, Jamaal Tatum…and Mike Wilks. I guess what goes around comes around, eh?
In any case, it’s a cost-benefit thing. If there are 2-3 training camp guys who are so stellar that we’d be insane to pass them up, then we should sign them. But if past is prologue, it is unlikely that even 1 of the training camp guys – much less 2 – will be someone we’ll ever hear about again after training camp.
I just don’t want us to use up roster spots that we might need if 3 or 4 injuries hit and Woody refuses to play our current 11th and 12th men, leaving us playing with a 7 or 8 player rotation and driving our starters into the ground again…
Sekou Smith
October 5th, 2009
9:50 pm
Josh took one bad shot today (the one in that picture) and had one silly turnover during the scrimmage, but other than that he’s looked dang good. He’s been blocking shots and offensive rebounding better than I’ve seen him do those things since before last season. His activity on both ends of the floor is crucial to the Hawks’ cause.