Did Johnson makes the right call?

I wish this would act like a contract year kind of thing where a guy goes nuts to prove to everyone he’s worth a huge contract, but reality is Joe can fall back on the Hawks original offer if he doesn’t get a bigger offer somewhere else. The Hawks were right to offer it, Joe was right to weigh all of his options. I don’t think this a big deal, Joe will be a Hawk for a long time.

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It’s all about that extra year. Don’t get me wrong, I had hoped the Hawks would nap him on a four-year deal, but I understand Joe’s decision to wait. Either way, that fifth year is gonna be a cap killer down the road…

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I say trade Joe and get something in return. Roll Tide.

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Clyde,

We will have to revoke your “trade Joe” license as well… specially when you are all crimsonly around here… this is a Hawks’ blog!

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Sekou, the way I look at it is that you have to like the way both side played the game or did business. Im a business owner and so I look at this for what it was – both sides doing business. I honestly think the Hawks offer was less than what Joe expected or even what I would expect they would have offered – especially when they offered Marvin what? 40 mil, and he was injured throughout last year. The Hawks tried to pay him based on what he did last year. So, if you’re Hawks management you want JJ to have a really good year because it increase your chances of making the playoffs for a third year in a row.

I would think that JJ has put more pressure on himself to perform well and maybe that’s what he needs. If he doesn’t perform well the Hawks maybe take their previous offer off the table for less or he gets the same offer. He plays well and he’ll get offered more because more teams will want him and the Hawks will have to come out of their pockets. Another thing working for both sides is what you mentioned about his leverage with it being a deep free agency class. The Hawks also have that going for them too because maybe they choose to go in a different direction or maybe teams pay less attention to JJ.

All around I’d say both sides made good moves – the Hawks with the initial offer, and JJ couldn’t really go wrong with his decision.

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As much as I appreciate and believe what JJ has done for the Hawks and the younger players on the team. And as much as I cannot fault him for using the leverage he has. I am not sure he will be able to ever be seen as the elite player. I just do not believe he is unselfish enough to some degree. For example, in the All-Star games he has been in, he really struggled. I think teams remember things like that as well as the Cleveland sweep as they consider giving him elite money.

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ILL-logical

September 30th, 2009
9:11 am
A bit of clarification is in order, I believe. Jamal Crawford was obtained as an insurance policy in the event that Mike Bibby did resign AND if Joe Johnson did not either. Mr. Sund ’s move was essentially revenue neutral because when the salaries of Acie Law, Calvin Claxton and Ronald Murray culmlatively are compared with Jamal Crawford’s , it is a wash. In addition, the 1 for 3 swap allowed Mr. Sund to bring both Joe Smith and Jason Collins without having to delete any key personnel and within the team’s budget.

With some additional assets and a relatively stable payroll, Mr. Sund is now afforded some financial flexibilty: he has made an intial offer, albeit lowball, offer to Joe Johnson to demonstrate the organizations desire to retain his services and he now has the ability to trade every other featured player on the roster to improve the team at any point in the season or in the summer.Not bad for a country boy.

Joe Johnson will get paid whether it is here or someplace else. He will however have to show more leadership both on and off the court to get there. He is going to have to do “star” type things if he wants to earn “star” money. Hiding out in Arkansas every year will no longer be an option if he wants to be among the league’s elite. Me, I hope that he achieves his goals here by making his teammates and the team better on the court and representing the organization in a visible and positive manner off of the court as well.

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Yes! Joe has got some sense. Its not about money. Its about winning championships. Hes not going to stick around while the press and Sund try to convince him that Horford, a powerforward playing center and Zaza koncak (3″vertical leap) is what is going to help him get his ring. With champions its about winning championships.Cant be a champion with out a championship…Duh. The Hawks are playing themselves out of position(like horford),when it would have been wiser to sign flip for a whole lot less than Crawford. Let the 3″ vertical leap…leap, and sign collins. Let the contract of speedy and acie expire this year. You would have saved more than 10 million when you consider the expiring contracts, and be posied to go after a name brand,enforcer type center to get to the next level. Meanwhile with flip and collins in place of crawford and koncak you will still get a fourth place finish.

JJ is leaving because Sunds moves leave a lot to be desired. JJ is about to go to his peak years and wants a championship or 2. I dont fault him for that. Thanks for giving us hope and exciting years! Good Job JJ.

What is clear is that it is not about money. 15mil a year is nothing to sneeze at. Its about Championships. JJ clearly doesnt believe he can get it here. Not with these bone head moves.Its clear Sund (like the anti woodson hate cell) doesnt understand basketball or is not trying to win a championship.

Im with JJ on this one. I like winning.

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The only way this doesn’t work for Joe is if he sustains a big injury this year, which isn’t out of the question considering how hard Woody has worked him here in Atlanta. I hope the Hawks get everything they can out of Joe this year, and make a deep run in the postseason. That way, it won’t matter if Joe stays or not — Atlanta would still be able to attract a top FA at the end of the season.

And Craig, replacing JJ with Wade would be an even swap at best, not an upgrade. D-Wade is the only horse in the NBA who’s been ridden harder than Joe has. His physical age is much older than his calendar age b/c Miami won’t give him any help.

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Enter your comments here
Zero concerns with this situation. Go Hawks!

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It’s business. If I were JJ, I would wait until next summer to see what I could get in the FA market as well.

Relax, I think JJ will have a great season for the Hawks. It will only help him in free agency as well as help the Hawks.

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Vava74

Impressive. Excellent homework. I see why we agree most times. Lol.

My take on JJ not accepting the offer. JJ is in the prime of his career, and can make great money and be on a contender if he get with one of the elite players. JJ see that the Hawks past up the oppurtunity to pair him with championship caliber talent. JJ is a winner and he wants to win a championship. He sees the Hawks as a good team, but not a champioship team.

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I doubt he’s going to do better than that from anyone else next year. That’s a lot of money for any player these days, and if you read the press about the Hawks from around the league, the biggest knock on them is that they have a lot of talent but no superstar. If no one else thinks he’s a superstar, who’s going to pay him more than $15 million a year?

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JJ says he wants to join the elite. Therefore he doesn’t yet think he’s an elite player. He’s bashing himself for not being better. As we know, anybody who bashes JJ is ungrateful, therefore JJ is ungrateful for the job he;s done so far.

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Truth-Serum

I’m with you on the champioship talk. However I think the Hawks need another bonified star regardless of position oppose to a center. If you look around the league most teams don’t have great centers. Shaq is the only great center to win a title in the last 7 years. Al could be a championship level PF. The 3rd wheel on a champioship team. I agree with you this team is not built to win a championship, and JJ wants win a champioship in the final stages of his career.

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“My sole focus right now is on this team and what we’re trying to accomplish this season,” Johnson said. “I have some goals set for this season for my team, and I have some individual goals set for myself as well. I really feel like I can be one of the elite players in this league, and it’s going to be an exciting year.”

I can see where the forked tongue name came about. He never said what he said, huh?

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Joe if your reading this don’t let these fair weather fans get to you. I know what you’ve put into this team, and I know you don’t wanna walk away right as we’re about to reach that championship level. I had hoped you would sign, but if you wanna bet on yourself, as a man i respect that. Show us what ya got!even though you already have for years now. It’s gonna be a fun year Go Hawks!

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Sekou,

I am leaving tomorrow for East Lansing. Will be at the game on Saturday. Go STATE!!! Never thought they would be 1 and 3 right now, though.

How can anyone be mad at Joe Johnson? If you are, you obviously have not been paying attention for the last 4 years. That is one guy, even if he leaves, that I could ever boo when he returned to Philips. That guy has made the Hawks what they are today.

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newkid

September 30th, 2009
11:13 am

I agree, Joe is what Joe is! And what he is apparently is worth 15million per year to a middle level team like the Hawks. To me that would make his status among the elite. I dont believe there are 15 players making 15 million a year. I do agree with you that Joe is about as good as he can get. He will be this good for the next 5 or 6 years. thats the good thing. What better is, in a couple of years Marvin Williams will be just as good if not better.

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Hyummm, No Woodson no JJ…Could this be related? Does JJ like playing for Woodson?Are they that close? Hummmm interesting, to be continued….

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Top shooting guard salaries: 1. Kobe Bryant, LA Lakers, $21.26million. 2. Allen Iverson, Detroit, $20.84million. 3. Tracy McGrady, $20.37million. 4. Ray Allen, Boston, $18.39million. 5. Joe Johnson, Atlanta, $14.23million.

HUMM THIS IS LAST YEARS…

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truth-serum (and other names),

Why are you addressing me? You wanted me and Ken to not talk to you and I’ve honored that. Take your accusations where the sun don’t shine.

This will be my last post to your babble and nonsense, so leave me out of it.

I WILL say that I’m confident that Joe will re-sign here, and that’s fine with me. He’s a good player and crucial to our future. Sorry I can’t have your faith in his selfishness.

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Let joe go and go after D WADE in the worst way he will be almost as big as the nique back in the day.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!

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Atlanta Hawks Salaries

Player 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 2013-14

Joe Johnson $14,976,754
Josh Smith $10,800,000 $11,600,000 $12,400,000 $13,200,000
Jamal Crawford $9,360,000 $10,080,000
Marvin Williams $7,355,166
Mike Bibby $18 million ( 3years )
Zaza Pachulia 4,750,000.
Al Horford $3,589,700 $4,537,381 $5,953,044
Maurice Evans $2,500,000 $2,500,000
Jeff Teague
Joe Smith $1,306,455
Jason Collins $1,181,893
Mario West $1,000,497
Randolph Morris $855,189

TOTALS $52,925,654 $28,717,381 $18,353,044 $13,200,000 $0

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newkid If Joe johnson is being played a top 15 or 10 salary would that make him an elite player? Would a person practicing humility say” im an elite player”? or would he draw notice to his status by saying if I could be an elite player? Bottom line is watch the zerooooooooooo’s on his pay check and then youll know whether he is an elite player.

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newkid- I like the Yoda speak

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Sekou

You said: “Josh Smith, Josh Childress, Marvin Williams, Mike Bibby and Zaza Pachulia play out the final years of their deals without an extension”.

Only Bibby & Zaza played the final year of their deals without extension. Childress still haven’t played the final year of his deal. Marv and Smoove signed before the final year of their deals.

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I don’t know if Johnson makes the right call. The ajc be makesin a lot of wrong calls so I don’t know

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newkid I think JJ is better then cp3 and I dont consider chris paul an elite player. I will agree with you on this: there is more than one way to assess who is an elite player. Salary is definitly one of them. Yes, The type of salary being discussed with JJ is one that would make him a top 10-15 assest. Any measurement outside of salary is an opinion. The difference between a pro and an amatuer is the pay. Pay is what separates the classes more often than not. Ill just agree to disagree. My point is the salary joe can command shows what his status is. Bottom line.

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JJ Knows Best…

If the debacle over his trade to ATL didnt teach him well, I dont know what would – this is a BUSINESS.

For the past few seasons, especially since Rick Sund arrived, the Hawks havent thrown money at any of its free agents. So, why would JJ cave early? He’s watched both Jsmoove, JChill and Marvin be told to go out and get another deal. Of course, Sund had the right to match, but it was BUSINESS. They were smart.

Now, its JJs time to be smart. Sund doesnt have the right to match. Playing hardball and over-playing your hand has set a certain tone. So, let’s see what happens?

If there’s one player other teams would love to have, its JJ – he can play well with anybody. He’s not Batman, we know, but for a team that already has a Batman, he’s a great Robin.

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One small point, without a contract who does JJ care more about – himself or the team. Anyone who answers the team is an idiot. When the leader of a team is more concerned with his own well being than the teams, the team is less likely to reach its true potential. Sekou, in this case both sides are likely losers, and by the way, none of the other players you alluded to were the team’s leader.

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Stating the Obvious, thanks!!!

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Im with Mr Biggers on that one Daniel, you do act like a ho. Be your own man and stop acting like a B!tch every man is capable of forming his one opinion and forming his own thoughts What… are you the Thought police? You radical cell groups are shot out!

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Daniel I mean take a look at my nuttz and give me your honest opinion. You know how much I value your opinion.

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Yes, those are Extraordinary Nuttz and Yes Im a Ho. Im really sorry I do act like a B!tch at times.

You dont have to speak to who I tell you Geemack. I was a little jealous. You can speak to who ever you want. I try to be more rational.Please forgive my B!tch Aizz.

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Billups in 2007…need I go on?

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Nutz/Truth-Serum/Biggers et. al- Please stop using my screen name. But, thanks for proving my point that you are an idiot who is a running joke on this blog.
And if you really want my opinion: I think you are a sad, sad, lonely, person with barely the reading level of a 4th grader who so desperately seeks attention, but only in a vaguely anonymous way, so that he doesn’t feel so alone in the world. Because that giant hole inside of soul that never seems to let you feel like your OK doesn’t get any smaller with anything you have tried. And no matter what you do the overwhelming sense of having nothing of value to contribute to real life keeps nagging at you. So, I pity you.

You asked for my opinion

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Thats telling them Daniel. You showed them whos the real thought police. Hey by the way I think Mr extraordinary was asking your opinion on his Nutz.

Oh why were you telling some other people not to talk to truth serum? Are you a part of the imfamous Bubba association? Is it true you are part b!tch?

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Yea I wouldnot want to f with the bubba posse. They got guys like nonmental co-signing their bullsh!t. Here is the Bubba posse’s most wanted list

TRUTH SERUM…BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY
WOODSON…WATCH OUT BLACK MAN
MICHAEL VICK…OH THEY ALREADY GOT HIM
TRUTH SERUM…. YOU MUTHER FOCKER
WOODSON…ITS AN ADDICTION OF HATE.

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Honestly, this is a wait and see situation. It’s “bidness” at the end of the day, man. Honestly, if testing the waters is the best “bidness” move for JJ, it’s incumbent upon him to do so. This would be his third, and likely, last big contract. From Sund’s/the Hawks’ standpoint, they have to decide whether they should actively court him in the offseason, risk letting him walk, or test his trade value. It’s that simple. My only expectation of the Hawks is don’t come out of this with nothing. If we lose him, replace him talents with better or comparable talents. If you can trade and get better, do that. Draft picks don’t excite me. We’ve been there already. The result is Marvin, Josh, Al, and Teague (with Shelden Williams, Acie Law, and Solomon Jones occupying other teams’ rosters). Simply put, a draft pick=experiment unless it’s a can’t miss talent. We’re past rebuilding. We went through a decade of it.

My only expectation from Joe is to perform at an optimum level while he’s in a Hawks uniform, whether it be only this year or four more.

I have higher expectations from the organization. They cannot let Joe’s decision in the offseason of next year cripple us. That simple. If he’s still “got it” in their view, wants to be here and he’s signable, sign him. If he doesn’t “have it”, wants to stay, but you are unsure of his talents, consider your options. If he wants to leave for “greener pastures”, the Hawks don’t want to enter into a bidding war, then let him go and go get a big name who can fill his space. If you don’t want to take a risk on any of this, trade him at the deadline. In all of this, they also must be informed by the way things went down between him and the Suns during his last contract negotiation. Nice guy or not, you have to protect yourself as an organization. Things were ugly between he and the Suns before the Hawks entered into the discussion. Likewise, Joe has to look at the Hawks and ask himself, is the organization really committed to winning? Are all of the owners on board? He knows first hand because his signing spurred the Belkin fiasco. There are many varibles all sides must consider.

It’s a “bidness.” Joe is making a decision for him. I expect the Hawks to do the same for the fans of Atlanta.

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Fork Tongue Review Board.

September 30th, 2009
11:20 am
You do get worked up over the most minor issues, most of which arent relevant.Then you want to engage conversation and debate on the trival. You remind me of the lone fly that has snook into the house and ends up in someones glass of milk.

You dont serve any worthwhile purpose.

Daniel

September 30th, 2009
3:03 pm

And no matter what you do the overwhelming sense of having nothing of value to contribute to real life

You asked for my opinion….

Yeah. He did, but you just plagarized the comments of fork tongue review. Can you and your trolls go find a house to haunt?

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Guys give Daniel some time its a monthly thing that most guys dont understand. Time out.

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niremetal and the rest of you,
First, you have too much time on your hands
Second, you list a few nice examples but simple common sense says otherwise or are you not familiar with common sense.
Third, why don’t all you wizards and geniuses use your real names, are you afraid of something, do you lack self-confidence or do just like to hide like a little girl or boy.

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Please trade him!

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Look, Joe Johnson isn’t going anywhere! Yes, he is a 3 time All Star, but he is not in the top Free Agents group after this Season! I will Bet ANYONE a $1 to a dime that NO OTHER TEAM offer JJ the amount that Atlanta has. Truth is he was never worth the first contract that the Hawks signed him too in the beginning, but JJ did get better & become deservant on his Contract! He a PLAYOFF BUST! JOSH SMITH CARRIED THE HAWKS IN THE PLAYOFFS LAST YEAR! WHERE WAS THE ALL STAR JJ? DID HE EVEN SUIT UP? I WATCHED EVERY PLAYOFF GAME & CAN’T TELL YOU IF JJ CAME TO THE GAMES, because he did nothing! He is scared when he plays against The Real NBA Superstars! There is no I in team, But there is a I in WIN(as Michael Jordan said) & JJ is not that caliber Star! “Lebron James,Dwayne Wade, Kobe Bryant, Carmelo Anthony, SO STOP IT!!! I MEAN STOP IT RIGHT NOW!!! YOU GUYS ALL KNOW THAT THE HAWKS BEST DAYS ARE BEHIND THEM! ALOT OF GOOD TEAMS IN THE EAST HAVE STACKED THEIR DECKS! THE HAWKS WILL BE FIGHTING FOR THE 6-8 SPOT FOR THE PLAYOFFS! WHICH WILL PAIR THEM WITH THE CELTICS OR CAVS AGAIN IN ANOTHER SWEEP SERIES! DID I MENTION THAT I’M A HAWKS FAN? But what do I know?

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BWDIK,

I will Bet ANYONE a $1 to a dime that NO OTHER TEAM offer JJ the amount that Atlanta has.

So you want to bet that no other team will offer JJ at least 4yrs/$60M next summer? At 10:1 odds? Buddy, I will take that bet before some other greedy person swoops in, and I will even let you name the stakes.

Steve,

First, you have too much time on your hands

Why yes, I do. But I am pretty damned happy about the amount of time I have on my hands now. Trust me, it didn’t come cheap.

Second, you list a few nice examples but simple common sense says otherwise or are you not familiar with common sense.

I’ve heard of common sense before. And common sense says you can’t read jack into a player doing what the vast majority of NBA free agents do in this situation – unless they get an over-the-top offer (which the Hawks’ offer to JJ most certainly wasn’t – a point that even some people critical of JJ’s decision concede), they play out their contract and use whatever leverage they have to get a better offer. That’s called capitalism. It’s hardly contrary to common sense to think that JJ wants to stay here, but doesn’t want to settle for a lowball offer.

Third, why don’t all you wizards and geniuses use your real names, are you afraid of something, do you lack self-confidence or do just like to hide like a little girl or boy.

Uh…is this is a joke? Have you never been on a blog before? Do you not know what a “handle” is? And by the way – the regulars around here DO know my name. Not that it would make me a coward if they didn’t. It would make me a…uh…blogger.

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oh and “Bob Weiss”- I didn’t plagarize anything because I actually wrote a complete sentence. Did you really mean to write snook[sic] twice.

Alright, I will let it go. Just go back to making your random comments to no one.

I sincerely hope that you get better.

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niremetal Have you ever played any sports? Do you know how teammates feel in situations like this? Most of them feel like Oh well F@@K him! He Leaving anyway! So i’m telling you that his decision could affect the teams chemistry! We shall see won’t we! Joe Johnson is all about self anyway! I go to ALL THE HOME GAMES & WHEN jOSH SMITH WAS DOING WELL IN THE PLAYOFFS jOE JOHNSON WOULDN’T LOOK HIS WAY TO PASS HIM THE BALL FOR NOTHING! Funny thing is That F@ggot @ss coach is getting what he deserves! He was being all at odds with Josh Smith & kissing Joe Johnson’s & know what? his GOLDEN BOY IS LIKE F@@K HIM TOO! JOE GOING AFTER THE BIGGEST CHECK! LOYALTY CHANGES WITH CIRCUMSTANCES RIGHT JOE?

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niremetal
So what do bloggers have to hide? Do they fear they may say something stupid? I just don’t get not owning up to one’s opinions. Maybe you can enlighten me. I’ve never been a joiner so please don’t tell me the reason is everyone does it that way.

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GO HAWKS & JOSH SMITH!!!

AND JJ, YOU GO TO ANOTHER TEAM!

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From Sekou’s article:

“When I’m out there, I don’t want to come out,” Johnson said. “I just pay the price later. In the heat of the battle, I don’t ever want to come out.”

That’s why Johnson cringes every time he hears complaints about Woodson playing him too much.

“I can’t put a lot of that on coach,” he said. “You have to put it on me, because even when he asks me if I want a break or if I’m tired, I always say no. Even if I’m tired and I can’t breathe, I still tell him no. That’s not me being selfish. I’m just a competitor to the point that I feel like I can really do something to help my team win.”

Joe, TRUST YOUR TEAMMATES!

And you are kidding yourself. It IS being selfish (or at the very least shortsighted) if you are fatigued enough that you can’t breathe, but think YOU can do better than a rested teammate. I LOVE the competitiveness, but not at the expense of hurting the team. Reserves are there for a reason. No wonder he turned it over in crunch time so much. He was gassed.

This attitude troubles me and I sincerely hope that Woodson starts “telling” Joe to come out instead of “asking”.

Imagine having to guard him late in the 4th quarter if he had only played 28 minutes instead of 38. Scary.

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niremetal
Second time you said I called you a coward (sorry if you took my writing that way). Never said it or wrote it but I certainly feel people should have the moral courage to stand by their opinions with actual names. Are you the Matt that 790 let go, if you are, I really thought (think) you have real talent if someone would mentor you to round out the rough edges. Good luck and sorry you have to work with Kincade.

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but what do i know
i think you are the smartest one on this blog. you make sense. if jj wants a championship so bad he would show up for the play offs. woodson catered to jj so much that team totally lacks ball movement & this is why we get blown out early in games. iso joe offense will never win a championship.

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guys i think we have to keep jj because lets face it wade and lebron are not coming here in a million years and jj looks better and younger than most of the other free agents….

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Hey Sekou can you ask JJ if that was really him witting those tweets in the offseason?

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Bubba posse 8:52 pm call to hate;

Bubba hate association top 5 people to insult and assault with hate

Truth-Serum – get that mother frocker he keeps mocking our crew

Woodson – keep the hate on him I think hes ready to fold

Obama – hes against all the lobbyist that have held down science and medicine for years for the sake of a dollar and hes also helping the poor and disadvantaged. Hate on him at all cost.

Joe Johnson – hes Woody’s boy and probably wont sign unless hes got some assurance that Woodson will be around to. I need a lot of you to create fictitious names like Daniel.- good job masquerading ass But What do I Know, Daniel. Keep up the hate your identity is known only to the Bubba posse. You are to be promoted to Grand poot but for your undercover work.

Michael Vick – let’s Keep up the hate on this guy, especially now that Mattie lice is have a difficult time. Last game against the pat really show that the birds pass off the run and without a running game Mattie lice is exposed as a noodle arm quarter back.

Im truly enjoying the hate you guys are bringing forth. You have turned this blog site into a cell of hate. All true hawk fans will be turned off! Good job Bubba Nation!

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When you complimented my nuttz you said a mouthful!!

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Steve, let me add that I still have a lot of aliases that I use to mask my hatred of Woodson. Im really abusive and a butt hole but I would like to be respect did so I do my hate woodson under a alias just like most of the guys here. Then I try and sound competent and respectful as Niremental. Some guy has pickup on this and is using my name as nonmental. Trust me, Im mental.

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CHECK OUT HAWKS TRAINING CAME CENTRAL!!!!NEW VIDEO INTERVIEWS WITH JAMAL CRAWFORD AND JEFF TEAGUE!!!!!!

http://www.nba.com/hawks/news/2009_training_camp_central.html

o_0

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I don’t blame Joe for exploring his options. What he’s really saying to me is “I know how this game is played, and I’d like a little more money.” That doesn’t mean he wants out. If he did, he’d have asked for a trade or done what he did in Phoenix (asked the front office not to match the contract Atlanta was offering). Okay, how is this something new? Besides, the front office has done this to other players, now it’s their turn to sweat a bit. But I think Sund hedged his bets with Crawford, just a bit. And he was wise to do so.

Still, there are some things said in connection with Joe Johnson that I find to be a repeated theme:

“Joe is the best thing that ever happened to the Hawks”

Okay, I hear that. But does that tell you just how good Joe is, or does it tell you about the decisions made by the organization over the years? Or a bit of both? Would we be still saying that if we had drafted Chris Paul? Or Deron Williams? Or Brandon Roy? Before you rip into this, consider what a guy like Paul did for a WEAKER team in his first 2-3 years before you answer. No, I’m not comparing Joe to these other guys, player to player, in a vaccum. I’m talking about decisions that could have been made, and players that could have been obtained IN ADDITION to Joe. Guys who are considered by many to be either on par with his impact on a team, or even greater…Just sayin’…

“Joe will easily be offered 16-18 million by several other teams.”

How can we be sure of this? We can’t. And while I agree that super franchise guys like Kobe Bryant get 24 million, they got that kind of money BEFORE the economical downturn. There is no absolute guarantee of such a salary now (though still a likelihood for the game’s absolute best), even more so for guys who are a tier below the Kobe and Lebron types. Not only that, but how many teams are willing to shell that kind of money out on an offer sheet unless they are certain that Atlanta won’t match it? Offer sheets are gambles. Serious gambles. Bigger than World Poker Championship gambles. Also, if considering signing Joe away, you have to look at your own team’s talent level, as opposed to that of the Hawks. If a Johnson-led team can’t get past the second round (let’s assume at full health), what’s he gonna do for a less talented team? Oh, and have we forgotten that times are so hard, that the NBA handed out a 10-12 million dollar stimulus package to half the teams last season? Yeah, everybody’s looking to shell out 16-18 million for a guy like Joe. Won’t call that wrong, but I won’t call it right, either.

“Josh and Marvin signed longterm but neither had a better offer than what the Hawks made. Same for Zaza.”

Wrong on one count. The only reported offer on the table for Josh Smith was Billy Knight’s original offer of 5yrs/$45 million. Josh was offered 5yrs/$58 million by the Grizzlies, which the Hawks matched immediately. $58mil > $45mil.

“By not signing tell me he does not want to be here and money is the motivator.”

Okay, but I don’t think the two are mutually inclusive. We can just as easily say that Bibby, Zaza, and Marvin all stayed because they couldn’t get better money elsewhere. Using the same logic, we could conclude that none of the three wanted to be here, and that money was the only motivating factor. Sound fair? Not to me…

“Joe does not deserve an elite/superstar contract because he is not an elite/superstar player.”

Joe says he wants to become an elite player. I’m interested in how he thinks he can achieve that goal. Certainly not by playing more minutes. I figure it has to be an increase in efficiency. This will be interesting.

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Let him walk because Josh Smith said he is the NEXT BIG THING.

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Sekou, So true. Happens all the time. Team goes low, player goes high & they meet in the middle, which is usually whats best for the franchise and the player.

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If Joe goes BONKERS this season, and the team has a CRAZY year; I’m thinking 6yrs with a player option in there somewhere…

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WTF!!, you seem a lil angry bruh o_0. How bout’ you take your own advice and chill. Pop a couple bottles and DROWN YO SELF FOO!!!

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Ariose ,

Did you get my e-mail?

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Ray, thanks for the heads up lol. It’s been a few days since i’ve checked it heh…..and you know i was jus playin’ about Marv…..not the Rudy part though

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Oh, and Kirilenko belongs in that category of “swingmen who play D” as well.

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It’s funny how that perimeter defense thing works. Kobe had the potential all along, but it took some Jedi mind tricks by Phil Jackson to convince him that the way to win was for him to play better “D”. Sure enough, he proved it in the Olympics, and in that championship run.

Thing is, I understand why guys who have to be “the man” concern themselves more with offense than they do defense. I don’t like it, but I understand it. Yet, Kobe had no excuse, particularly once Gasol came along. When you’re out there with Gasol and Odom, you can’t use the excuse of “I’m saving myself for offense.”

Ariose ,

No problem. Hit me back on the e-mail when you can. And I feel you on Rudy Gay. I like his game, and there’s no substitute for a 20ppg scorer. But fit is everything. Does he fit here better than Marvin? Always been my question. I think he’d have a harder time fitting than Jamal Crawford, who many think will be a problem.

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Ray,

As for CP3 and winning, you know my theory – when a PG is your best scorer, you don’t win titles. Not in the modern NBA. I admit it’s just a theory, but with the way defense is played these days, you can’t afford to focus your whole offense on one player.

My broader point is that it’s much, much, much harder to find strong, quick big men with lots of heart like Horford than it is to find talented swingmen (like Roy) or even talented PGs (like CP3 or Deron). And more to the point, every title winning team from the past 30 years has had an imposing defensive presence in the middle (be it a giant like Hakeem/Kareem/Shaq, or a Ben Wallace/Horace Grant/Dennis Rodman shorter-but-tough-as-nails PF/C type). I think Horford is very, very close to being that kind of player. And honestly? There are very, very few players I can think of that I would trade Horford for – and stars though they may be, I would have to think long and hard about trading him even for a CP3 or Deron or Roy.

Yeah, getting Horford was mostly luck. But it wasn’t entirely luck. Our odds of “winning” the lottery were proportionate to how bad our record was in 06-07. Give us CP3 or Deron or Roy, and I think we’re at worst in the bottom of the lottery or (more likely since this is the East) in the playoffs. Either way, we don’t get the ping pong ball that went to the 4th worst team in the league, which is what netted us the #3 pick and Horford.

I never said it was by design – quite the contrary, I explicitly said that it was NOT by design. But the players you get in the NBA and whether they pan out is always based largely on luck. And we might have used up all our luck had we gotten CP3 or Deron or Roy, and we’d be desperately scouring now for a way to get a guy like Horford – through “luck” or otherwise.

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Big Ray,

You gotta be kidding me. You know me better than that. I put about as much stock into a player’s box score stats as I do into astrology (read: none). That’s why my favorite guys in the NBA are the Shane Battiers and Bruce Bowens who help their teams win in ways that NEVER show up in stats. And why I was pushing for Woody to play Mario more this past year despite the fact that he’d never create a blip in the box score.

If Marvin were putting up those numbers without playing good D, I absolutely would not be singing his praises or saying “I told you so.” Remember that back in the day, I never defended Marvin as a player; I only defended Knight’s decision to draft him (you remember all my “hindsight is 20/20″ arguments – which most certainly were NOT complementary to Marvin as a player).

The reason I finally got off the fence about Marvin as a player was because he started playing good D. Take that away, and I would not be counting myself among the people who were pushing for Sund to re-sign Marvin to a long-term deal.

And with that, I sign off for the night…

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Nire! ,

Why do you keep talking about trading Horford for those guys?? Come one man, we’re talking about draft here, not trading KNOWN products.

“As for CP3 and winning, you know my theory – when a PG is your best scorer, you don’t win titles. Not in the modern NBA. I admit it’s just a theory, but with the way defense is played these days, you can’t afford to focus your whole offense on one player.”

You know I’m with you on that, but that argument is based on team structure, not the player.

CP3 is the best scorer on his team because he MUST be. Who, since his entry to the NBA, have the Hornets had that could have been a better scorer? Conversely, Deron Williams plays on a team that currently has a guy who can bear a bigger or at least equal share of the scoring burden, in Boozer. CP3 has NEVER had that luxury. David West was his best bet, and as good as West is, he’s not that good. Stojakovich’s game fell off, so there went another option. CP3 leads that team the way he does because he MUST.

I mean, we’re not talking about a guy who is a selfish ballhog. The guy averages 10 assists a game. You think Joe has to do everything? Look at the Hawks, then look at the Hornets. Tell me Paul hasn’t had to do EVERYTHING. Is it not possible that if you put him on a different team….maybe he doesn’t have to be the top scorer? Or are you saying he will demand to be that kind of player? I don’t think he would, but that’s just my opinion. The guy is a competitor. And here’s what I think: eventually, he will want to win bad enough. And if New Orleans doesn’t put him and that team in a better position to do that, he’s gone. Money talks. But it doesn’t say everything.

“But the players you get in the NBA and whether they pan out is always based largely on luck.”

I agree, and I don’t agree. I hope you mean just by way of draft. But if you do, then you could also use that line of thinking to conclude that all of the GMs in the league are of equal skill, since it’s based largely on luck. Maybe that’s splitting hairs, but it’s not hard to do based on that statement. But if you don’t limit that statement to the draft alone, then you’ve opened up the flood gates. Here’s an example: the Lakers have won a few titles in the last decade.

It must have been mostly luck that brought Shaq, Kobe, and Gasol to L.A., three guys who helped them win rings. Because..uh…L.A. didn’t draft a single one of those guys.

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Yeah, okay Nire .

In all of your arguments defending Billy’s decision to draft him, you talked about all the experts’ statements and draft positioning, all based on Marvin’s potential to be what? A superstar. Not once did I read or hear a single thing about his potential to be a “defensive stopper”. Not a single peep about him being anything like Battier or Bowen. Not from you. Not from the experts. So what were you basing your defense of Knight’s draft choice on then? You said it yourself (and I say it again): superstardome.

Marvin’s defense didn’t come into the equation until a need to validate his existence in the starting lineup and his role with the team, once he came under fire for not turning into the…superstar…that he was expected to be, based on his draft position. Yep.

And you know what? there’s nothing wrong with that!

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ETOP 2008-09 NBA SALARIES
Highest paid NBA players:

1) Kevin Garnett (Boston) $24,751,934
2)tie Jason Kidd (Dallas) $21,372,000
2)tie Jermaine O’Neal (Toronto) $21,372,000
4) Kobe Bryant (LA Lakers) $21,262,500
5) Shaquille O’Neal (Phoenix) $21,000,000
6)tie Allen Iverson (Detroit) $20,840,625
6)tie. Stephon Marbury (New York) $20,840,625
Tim Duncan (San Antonio) $20,598,704
9) Tracy McGrady (Houston) $20,370,437
10) Ray Allen (Boston) $18,388,430
11) Dirk Nowitzki (Dallas) $18,077,904
12) Paul Pierce (Boston) $18,077,903
13) Shawn Marion (Miami) $17,810,000
14) Rashard Lewis (Orlando) $16,447,871
15) Michael Redd (Milwaukee) $15,780,000
16)tie Pau Gasol (LA Lakers) $15,106,000
16)tie. Andrei Kirilenko (Utah) $15,106,000
18)tie. Amare Stoudemire (Pho.) $15,070,550
18)tie Yao Ming (Houston) $15,070,550
20) Mike Bibby (Atlanta) $14,983,603

ONCE MORE TRUTH SERUM IS FACED WITH THE REAL TRUTH AND LOOKS LIKE A COMPLETE MORON, STICKING BOTH FEET IN HIS MOUTH AND FORCED TO HOP AROUND ON HIS BUTT FOR TRANSPORTATION. SINCE HIS BUTT IS NOW THE METHOD OF TRANSPORTATION, HIS EXCRETORY SYSTEM NO LONGER WORKS PROPERLY, THIS EXPLAINS WHY HE IS FULL OF SH!T. :0

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can we trade JJ for KMART + THOMPSON/HAWES? we’re not even sure if JJ have any intentions to re-sign so its better to trade him than lose him for nothing. anyway this team proved that we can still win games without JJ. Remember last season that marvin step up when JJ got injured and maybe you’ll noticed that we had a BETTER BALL MOVEMENT without him. all marvin needs is a chance to prove himself that he’s capable of taking over this team without JJ and besides i think KMART is capable of filling the void offensively cause he’s a better 3 pt shooter than JJ and he’s more aggressive in attacking the basket. he may not possess the kobe moves and may not be as flashy as JJ but he’s just as solid and more consistent and we have crawford to back him up who’s capable of scoring big and distributing the ball like JJ maybe the only thing that we’re really going to miss is JJ’s defense and we’re also going to have either HAWES/THOMPSON who looks to be a young promising big man who can still improve and help us. i think we’re a similar situation with philly when they still have AI and after they lost him most analyst thought that the sixers are finished but whoever expected that iggy will step up after they lost AI. i can see marvin doing the same thing if ever we lost JJ. I might be wrong but who knows. we haven’t seen marvin’s full potential yet.

PG- bibby/ teague
SG- crawford/ kmart
SF- marvin/ evans
PF- josh/ thompson?/ joe/
C- al

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Who cares about these filthy rich….greedy….self centered cry babies!!!! All they want it more more more money….this is one reason I hate and I mean HATE most pro sports. They aren’t team players at all, but more concerned about what’s in it for them….how well they do….how many points they score….blah blah blah. The only true sports professionals who really have to earn their money play tennis, golf…..where they usually don’t make much unless they play well day in and day out. The other sports can turn lack luster athletes into millionaires over night….I would love to play any sport today for the bare minimum….I would immediately gain a 300% pay increase or better….I think I could live on that and be quite happy….but since most pro athletes feel that somebody owes them something…that just is note enough….bring on college games….at least they play with enthusiasm and heart….not for money…..I’m finished ranting!!!!

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Good grief this blog sometimes gets as bad as the Falcons blog.
Big Ray- I am going to have to disagree with you on your 10:11 post. Obviously, since I am the one that wrote the opinion that there are several teams that will give Joe 16-18mil per a year.
Yes, the market has taken a downturn, but with several teams like the Knicks, Nets, Suns… possibly Clevland and Miami, that have sold their fan bases that they have been making moves for the next off season HAVE to get something done. That is five teams and there are only two legit stars (Lebron and Wade) to be had. Joe and Bosh will be the next two guys out of the shoot. The economy will have an effect on the mid tier player/ vet min guy, much like it did with Joe Smith and Bibby this past off season. But, Joe will get offers, not saying they won’t be offers that the Hawks can’t or won’t match, but they will be better than his extension offer from the Hawks.

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I like what Woodson is saying. I like what everyone on the team is saying. We have options in the front court and the backcourt. We have a good team now with the veterans and we have good young prospects. We are in good shape with the salary cap. We have good character guys on the team who are likable. We have players who have yet to reach their potential. Why are we so down and why are we debating things that really dont matter.

We could blosson into an elite team.

Thanks for the info, Sekou. I look forward to every nugget of information that you give.

Go Hawks.

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Ray,

The spin is pretty easy on that one – the “big man” I was talking about is necessary, but far FAR from sufficient. If that were all that was needed, guys like Karl Malone and Deke wouldn’t have retired without a title. The big man is one piece, and it’s actually not usually the most expensive piece (Grant, Rodman, and Ben Wallace were not the highest-paid players on their teams; even Dwight Howard makes less than Rashard). All of the title-winning teams of the past two decades except for the ‘99/’03 Spurs also had an All-Star caliber wing player (Dumars, Jordan, Drexler, Kobe, Rip/Tayshaun, Wade, Pierce/Allen). And even the ‘99 Spurs had the not-so-long-ago All-Star wing Sean Elliott.

No one said that a world-beating big man is ALL that matters. It’s just a necessary piece. And the rest of the pieces aren’t going to come cheap, at least not if you want to win a title. Just ask the Magic – they’re paying Rashard Lewis $120M, which seems like “overpaying” until you consider that they’d never have won 60 games or made it to the Finals without him.

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It’s a good thing we can agree on nothing. The offer to JJ was higher than I think he is worth. Why? Looking out over the next three years.

The cap will be smaller.
Owners losing 20 million a year.
Al will need a raise.
Chills needs to be signed next year.
Bibby will have to be replaced (if Teague comes through, this concern will be relieved)
Joe Smith/Collins are old and how long and how cheap can we play these guys.
ZaZa and Evans are good but not good enough.

Signing JJ for more than 14 million per year will crimp future moves in all of these areas. JJ can change his style of play and become the 16-17 million dollar man. He still needs to prove it by turning Josh/Marvin and Al into more dangerous options resulting in a much higher efficient offense. If that does not happen we can’t afford that high of a contract.

Let’s say he shot FG% of .460, made 23 pt’s per game, added an assist per game, drove more and got fouled more, added an assist per game, lowered his turn over ratio half a point, all with playing 36 min per game. Then pay the man the money.

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BIG RAY,

All that I am saying is, if the Hawks had presented a 5/75 or 6/90, this would have scared other teams off or they really will have to come with it. Do you play poker? You can bluff the hell out of someone, make them fold with a pair of Queens and you have an Ace/King.

I don’t think that any team out there would come higher than 6/90 for JJ. This lets JJ, your fan base, and other teams know that you are serious!!

Like Beyonce says, Hawks should have “put a ring on it.” 6/90 is definitely a “ring.”

“I don’t always watch basketball, but when I do, I prefer the Hawks. Stay thirsty my friends!”

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I’ve read Moore’s stuff. I hope no one’s paying him to write stuff. Like Kelly Dwyer on Yahoo, he decides early on what players/teams he likes and what players/teams he doesn’t. Once he decides, it doesn’t really matter what happens thereafter. He has no NBA contacts and is basically just an outsider fan….kinda like me – someone with an interest in basketball and way too much time on his hands. Except he thinks his rants deserve to be featured on a widely-read site and I realize that my drivel should be reserved for the comments section of my favorite team’s blog.

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DANIEL,

I think that if the Hawks presented that and JJ didn’t sign it, the backlash would be warranted. Everyone would have called him nuts to turn that down. Then he would look like a fool. 5/75 or 6/90 is about what he is going to get. I don’t see him getting a dollar more than that.

“I don’t always watch basketball, but when I do, I prefer the Hawks. Stay thirsy my friends.”

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The fifth year is what’s key more than the dollar amount. This is going to be the last big-money contract JJ can get. He will want to be secured at least 5 years. You never, ever see All-Stars settling for a 4-year deal at this stage in their careers.

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Any updates as far as what is actually happening on the court during training camp. Getting tired of reading speculation about what a player should or shouldnt do, lets get to the real action. There is a preseason game tonite and I know the Hawks start next week some time. I know preseason is nothing to get excited about but its better than reading about players playing against themselves. Of course they would look good. Lets see them play against better athletes and real defensive schemes!!

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“Why there’s more animosity directed at the player that declines an extension than to the team that declines to sign a player to an extension ”

Who says that? I think we were all pissed Smoove wasn’t extended 2 summers ago

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New Mike Woodson Article from the NBA Website:

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/vince_thomas/10/01/diversity/index.html

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Read this article and search for YouTube videos of this kid:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091001/ap_on_sp_co_ne/bkc_one_handed_player

Great form on his shot, great timing on D. He might turn a few heads in the MAAC….

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Ariose- thanks for the link. I have been a Woodson supporter on here for awhile. I think he takes a lot of blame that is underserved (some that is). I also think that consistency has helped this team to develop together. However, what does race have to do with it? So if you happen to be one of the people that don’t like Woodson, then you are being racist? (that is suggested all the time on here by one particular blogger)
Seems to me the fact that Woodson is one of the longer tenured coaches in the NBA after only 5 years is more a testament to the league’s and sports in general’s trend toward WIN NOW, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR ME LATELY, and the fact that the ASG have shown patience. Although, the article didn’t mention that his GM (who was also Black) tried to fire him. But, I guess they don’t want to let the facts get in the way of a good assumption or at least an easy story.
Mike Woodson and his career deserve more attention than from a writer trying to shoe horn racial politics onto his story.
Ultimately, what is more harmful?

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niremetal

October 1st, 2009
12:40 am

” And why I was pushing for Woody to play Mario more this past year despite the fact that he’d never create a blip in the box score.”

I SEE WHY YOU ARE CALLED NON MENTAL. YOU OFTEN CORRECT BLOGGER FOR SYNTAX. I HOPE YOU LEARN TO MAKE AN COMPLETE SENTENCE. EITHER USE THIS CONJECTURE IN A COMPOUND SENTENCE OR DROP THE “AND WHY AND MAKE IT A COMPLETE SENTENCE. FLATTER DEEZ NUTTZ.

niremetal

October 1st, 2009
9:05 am

The big man is one piece, and it’s actually not usually the most expensive piece (Grant, Rodman, and Ben Wallace were not the highest-paid players

“THE BIG MAN” USUALLY REFERS TO THE CENTER NOT THE POWER FORWARDS OR SMALL FORWARDS, NON MENTAL/TAGUIT. NIETHER GRANT NOR RODMAN WERE CENTERS. YOU HAVE A NON MENTAL HABIT OF CONFUSING THE POWER FORWARD POSITION WITH THE CENTER POSITION.

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Sautee called JJ selfish? HMMM… I didn’t see it, but I believe you.

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Nire- Sautee was calling Joe selfish for not coming out of the game when he was exhausted, and not trusting in his teammates. Totally different point than calling Joe selfish for not signing the Hawks’ extension offer.

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Truth-serum (currently masquerading as “non-mental”),

“Big man” can refer to power forwards or centers, depending on the context. In some contexts, people do use “big men” to refer to centers only. But that’s not the way I was using it, and many casual fans and sportwriters use the term “big man” to include PFs. For example:
http://hoopshype.com/players/chris_bosh.htm

Also, lots of teams have one coach for the “wings” and another for the “bigs,” and the “bigs” include both the Cs and PFs. For example, read Seven Seconds or Less, Jack McCallum’s wonderful book on…

Oh wait. It’s a book. And this is you we’re talking about. Nevermind.

Actually, I rarely correct bloggers for spelling and grammar. And I never correct for syntax, because there are no rules for governing syntax. My point about syntax was always that you always use the same syntax when you post as different people, which makes it easy to tell when you’re pulling one of your painfully un-clever attempts to fool people into thinking that some people actually agree with you.

But I will say this – it’s pretty funny that in your effort to correct my grammar, you misused the words “syntax,” misused the singular with “blogger,” misused the word conjecture (I think you mean conjunction), misused “an” instead of “a,” and forgot to include a close quote after “AND.”

In any case, I often use (as do other casual writers) less than complete sentences for stylistic effect when I’m emphasizing a point. In other words, I departed from the “rules” of writing ettiquette by design. You do it because you’re an idiot.

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*word syntax

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TRUE, I FORGOT TO CLOSE THE QUOTATION. I CAN ADMIT WHEN IM WRONG. MOST SLEAZY VARMITS TRY TO COVER IT UP AND CALL IT STYLE. BUTT FACE.

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Playing with a guy who does that does not allow anyone around him to maximize his potential, anyone.

People keep saying this as if JJ was the one drawing up “plays” that consisted of him in isolation and his teammates standing on the other side of the court not moving. Anyone who looks at JJ’s career progression from Phoenix to here would have to be blind if they didn’t admit that JJ is not a ‘natural ballhog’. He played a complementary role well in Phoenix where he often gave up the ball to his teammates (when he wasn’t the best player on his team), and showed no problem passing the ball in his first year here (when he was). Then Harrington left and Woody started calling the ISO plays en masse. And THAT is when people started calling JJ a ballhog (and yet somehow insufficiently assertive).

And PS – I would say JJ and Roy are a wash. I think they have very, VERY similar skill sets and their relative strengths cancel each other out – Roy is marginally quicker, JJ is marginally stronger; JJ is better posting up and shooting from the perimeter, Roy is better taking it to the rack; to get even more specific, Roy is better starting from the top of the key, and JJ is better starting near the baseline (which makes sense considering that’s where he spent a lot of his time in Phoenix). I don’t think either has a clear edge…especially when you consider the gargantuan difference in coaching quality that each has (Roy is always rested and plays within a ball-movement and off-ball movement focused offense).

I’ve talked to my Blazer-fan girlfriend about this PLENTY because we watch most of both teams’ games, and she actually thinks JJ is the better player (at least as of right now). Her gripes: Roy disappears for long stretches at a time, has a tendency to ignore open teammates, and has played less defense ever since he emerged as a star on offense. Sound familiar? I guess the grass is always greener…

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What happened to this blog? It’s starting to look like the foolishness that has haunted those Falcons blogs.

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Sekou, you’re not confusing, I see your point. But, my point is that JJ will not beat that offer, and Sund will not better it, so why not look like you are showing some team loyalty and accept the offer?

Then, as far as the fans go, we are always left trying to understand, or “put ourselves in their shoes”, the player’s greed and ego that knows no bounds.

I don’t care how you dice it, it’s sickening, we are talking about $60M here. He is starting to become a selfish player on the court, as well, last year hardly ever passing out of double and triple teams. Once teams learn this, they will five on him!

I prdict JJ will be disappointed next summer, and take this very same offer. Which brings us back to my original point. Sometimes you should just be happy.

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Niremetal, you have & WTF have to know JJ, i have never seen anyone that doesn’t know someone take up for them like you do! Look, All i saying is The Hawks put JJ on the spot! The already knew that he wasn’t gonna extend his contract before they made the offer! I had heard about it a month ago. so, to me the hawks are the blame for all this mess! Look, JJ is Good for a Hawks Player but he is not an Elite player in this league! When Dwade & Kobe or Lebron or Melo play against each other the challenge is competitve! JOE JOHNSON DOES NOT SHINE UP AGAINST ANY TOP NOTCH PLAYER IN THE NBA! SO HE SHOULD HAVE TAKE THE MONEY! REMEMBER THE HAWKS WERE THE LAUGHING STALK OF THE NBA WHEN THEY SIGNED JJ TO THAT BIG CONTRACT! He is good but HE IS NOT A TRUE ALL STAR IS NO SENSE!!! look at the All Star Roster & ask yourself out of the 3 years that jj made the All Star team what players on the All Star team is JJ better then at shooting guard? As a Hawks fan if you could pick any shooting Guard that you wanted off of JJ’s All Star to be The starting shooting guard for Your Atlanta Hawks! No Hawks Fans Would Pick JOE JOHNSON!!! lol

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Possible Hawks alternate jersey Possible Hawks alternate jersey:

http://www.peachtreehoops.com/2009/10/1/1065004/possible-hawks-alternate-jersey

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It would not be the end of the world, if the Hawks let JJ walk. He was no more of an impact player then Josh, Marvin, and Al are, when he was their age. It is time to let one or two of them take more of a role in the offense (just like Joe did when he came to Atlanta), and see if one of them can shine. None of the three will be superstars, but they can be just as good as JJ.

Who knows, maybe Teague will wind up being our superstar?

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The Guys at Hoopinion have an interesting take on the JJ situation:

Brett:

I believe Joe Johnson just kept the organization from shooting itself in the foot.

Karry said…
Bret,
Please explain to me how allowing Joe to go helps us build for a championship? Please give me scenerios( players etc).PLEAASE

1:46 PM, September 30, 2009
Bret LaGree said…
As they’re currently proving, you can’t build a championship team by trading a league average player and two first round picks for the right to pay Joe Johnson a max contract to be a team’s focal point. That’s before one accounts for the very real possibility that Johnson’s presence influenced the team’s decisions not to draft Paul or Deron Williams or Brandon Roy when given the chance.

None of that is Joe Johnson’s fault nor does it mean he’s not a fine basketball. However, I suspect that the wear-and-tear Johnson’s experienced, both in Phoenix and in Atlanta, will cause/has caused him to peak early. If he’s a fringe All-Star at this peak what will his decline phase look like? I wouldn’t pay $60 million for the privilege of discovering that over the course of four potentially long years.

By not signing the extension, Johnson has given the Hawks the opportunity to sign him after the season for fewer years/less money or let him go and invest the money that would have gone to Johnson plus Josh Childress’s rights plus, one hopes, Jamal Crawford’s expiring contract into acquiring a true franchise player or multiple players that will complement the young (and potentially improving) core of Smith, Horford, Williams, and Teague and the reasonably priced veteran role players (Bibby, Pachulia, Evans).

2:40 PM, September 30, 2009
Bronn said…
But if the projections for next year’s cap figures are accurate, we’re going to be over the cap whether JJ is a member of the Hawks, if my math is right.

Of course, that’s assuming there’s no Jamal Crawford trade in the works, and I suspect he’s a huge candidate to be traded.

5:06 PM, September 30, 2009
Bret LaGree said…
No doubt, losing Joe Johnson does not equal cap space in and of itself but one would think that in his absence the team might be motivated to get something for Josh Childress, trade Crawford’s expiring contract (wait, there might be a downside cap-wise to acquiring $19 million worth of Jamal Crawford’s contract), and explore their sign-and-trade options in free agency

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Opportunity beckons for Pacers’ Jones:

http://www.indystar.com/article/20091001/SPORTS04/910010456/Opportunity+beckons+for+Pacers++Jones

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Nire, I said it was an “Interesting” take lol. I wasn’t endorsing it. I do agree with your thoughts.

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Btw – the good thing about the spate of non-expiring contracts the Hawks will have next summer is that it opens the door to LOTS of sign-and-trade possibilities if we can talk LeBron/Bosh/Wade into coming here.

The thing that LaGree doesn’t seem to get is that without a Pippen-in-waiting, those guys are much less likely to be interested in coming here. Remember – there is absolutely no way that the Hawks will have the cap space next summer to sign Bosh, LeBron, or Wade outright. That means that in order to acquire one of them, we would have to both convince the player to come here AND convince their current team to work out a sign-and-trade with us where we give up about the salary that we give away.

For instance, we could convince Bosh to come here, and then work out a sign-and-trade with Toronto where we give them Crawford and either 1) Josh or 2) any two of Zaza/Bibby/Marvin (to get us within the cap) and a first round pick (so they don’t feel like they’re walking away emptyhanded) to make the deal work under the CBA. We then fill out the roster with solid veterans excited about the prospect of playing alongside two healthy All-Stars. That’s a recipe for a contender.

On the other hand, imagine if the Hawks win 50 games this year, and then the Hawks don’t re-sign JJ. JJ then signs with the Nets or Knicks for 5/$90M. Remember, the Hawks won’t have the cap space to sign any big-name free agent outright, which means we have to do a sign-and-trade. That means we have to give up some combination of the players I listed above. Given that prospect, why would a marquee free agent want to come here, knowing that he will be coming to a team recently depleted of its best player and 3 of its 4-5 next best players?

Is it likely that we can land any of those three guys? No. But it should be clear that it is much more likely to happen if we bring JJ back than if we let him walk.

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Got my salaries messed up there. Assuming that the max salary next year is ~$16.5M, we would have to give up either Josh or Crawford and any one of Zaza/Bibby/Marvin to make the salaries match…I think. I know there are always hidden kinks in player’s contracts that can make them hard to trade, and there are even more variables with a sign-and-trade (not to mention that the CBA could get renegotiated between now and then, in which case everything I just said might become obsolete). But the general points hold about 1) having to deplete our roster to bring in a star and 2) a star being more likely to want to come to a team with JJ than he is to come to a team without him…

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i hope joe realize if he stick wit this team and can actually win a champion on this team at anytime of his career.. he will go to the hall of fame.. but if he go to a team thats already a contender, he will get a ring. but they probally will say they could of won it with out him. or somethin like that.. this has been his team.. his team to grow with. he bacame a all star on this team. not on another team. he is a elite player because he took a team and put it on his back and literally carried them in the worst situations, ( 20 points in the 4th quarter against boston in the playoffs, game winning shots, takin over games when nobody else will step up ) now the roster this year is almost garenteeing him that he will always have the peices he need to win a championship!!! and the young players aint gon do nothin but get better!! they still got a young talented.. imagin when everybody in there prime with hoe johnson runnin the show.. the championships can come back to back to back.. the chemistry and the skill will be there.. aint nothin stoppin them!! as long as they stay together!! just somethin to think about!!!!

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Ariose, that is a very interesting out-of-the-box take from Hoopinion. I for one agree with them, maybe Sund does to. Maybe he made this offer to JJ knowing his EGO would be too big to accept it, and it would also get the fans off their backs……could get interesting.

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3.06: Mike Bibby was eighth in the league in assist to turnover ratio. He needs to keep up the pace. John Hollinger rather insightfully points out in his Hawks preview (insider only) that Atlanta was one of the few teams (ever) to have a low turnover rate and high free throws attempted (FTA/TO). I did not even know this was a stat, but apparently, it is, and apparently, it is important. The Hawks were the only team in the league in the top five in FTA and bottom ten in TOs. Basically, the team got to the line without turning it over a lot. Those two things are normally mutually exclusive. I really don’t know how the team did this. I feel Joe, Josh, and Zaza turnover the ball all the time, but that is apparently just a feeling and not a fact. Regardless, the reality for this season is the Hawks need to keep it up, and that starts with Mike Bibby again in the top ten of assist to turnover. And if Woodson wants to give Horford and Josh more shots around the basket to increase that free throw attempt rate, fine by me.
http://www.peachtreehoops.com/

This is a fascinating stat that I had not heard before but explains and shows our unique strength.
Josh and Marvin drive the ball on a regular basis and if both improve the handle just a little bit more will be extremely difficult to stop. The amount of fouls the Hawks shoot is one of the strengths of our team. With even more aggression the Hawks can and I believe will get even better.

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If Teague plays well and Crawford plays well and if Bibby plays well Just how much will JJ get to play? Spurs do this to save vets for the end of the year. Is it time to slow Joe for the end?

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The Hawks made the right decision to offer, and Joe made the right decision to decline. Bot the Hawks and Joe Johnson will be better for it. Joe, true Hawks fan believe in you and know that our team will go as far as you take us. My bigger concern is that Coach Woodson can play us at 10 deep every night. We can talk money later. Good luck this season Joe Johnson. Go Hawks!!

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The fact that Marvin led the league in FTA/TO last year and then spent the offseason working on his ball-handling excites me more than anything else about this upcoming season. Marvin’s physical talents lends him to being a foul magnet aka…dare i say it…a potential number 1 option? That Charlette game when JJ was out is probably my favorite regular season game of last year.

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Marvin COULD be that second 20ppg with his eyes shut guy that we need if Woody had him do more than stand in the corner waiting for a last-second pass in case IS O Joe breaks down. I remember that Charlotte game too, and the other one right before it against Minnesota where Woody made him JJ for two days and he scored 25 points or something like that. Then JJ came back and he got sent back to his hideout in the corner.

The Hawks already have a second offensive weapon, Woody just doesn’t use him unless his first offensive weapon is out.

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Daniel,

I was gone all day yesterday, but thanks for having my back regarding the “selfish JJ post”

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Sautee- No problem dude, and Nire- we know what you meant, your always cool. Sautee did you see the heat that I took for saying something about Truth-Serum. Good grief that guy needs meds.

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Big Ray

October 2nd, 2009
11:51 am

Im On it!

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No, truth-serum doesn’t get when he’s been mocked, just like Sam/Rod:
http://blogs.ajc.com/hawks/2009/08/05/extension-talks-for-joe/comment-page-5/#comments

Stating the Obvious

August 9th, 2009
8:16 pm

You’re not fooling anyone but yourself if you think anyone is buying into “Sam” and “Rod” being separate people. But we’ll know what’s up if “Ben from East Point” suddenly shows up making diss posts on Marvin.

Tom from Bankhead

August 9th, 2009
8:27 pm

Marvin sucks.

Sam from the Swats

August 9th, 2009
8:32 pm

Thanks Tom

They both are also convinced that anyone who disagrees with them are the same person. Schizo and stupid, a great combination!

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STO- your previous comment on Marvin, I agree with for the most part. I don’t think that Marvin backsliding had anything to do with Woody. I think it had more to do with injury and Marvin’s own deferance to JJ. I think he needs to step up and insert himself into the game more.

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In reading the responses to this provocative blog, there seems to be an underlying assumption that the economy is going to be robust by this time next year.Everyone is salivating at the big names available and then we have the second-level players also wanting to get in on the action generated by those big names.

Trouble is, every economic forecast that I have read expects the economy to still be slow, though improving. Tickets sales may not be robust this season because consumers are holding on to their money and there is a great deal of unemployed who aren’t likely to take in many games or buy much merchandise.

Sure there are a few owners that will be able to absorb a huge contract or two, New York for example, but if he goes to New York, that kind of defeats the “he wants a ring” idea that some are pushing.

I believe what will happen is that teams will not be as aggressive as people are predicting and that almost all the big names will stay with their current teams and sign for big money. Then we will see the same thing that happened in baseball with the next level of players finding willing suitors but at discounted prices some will be smart enough to quickly take deals (Bibby) others will have to go through some ego adjustment before finally landing a contract (Iverson).

In the end it is mostly about the economy which makes JJ’s refusal to sign a risk right now. We will not know if it is a mistake until the offseason. If he ends up signing a deal for less than he was offered this Summer, then it was a mistake. I think he will come to understand market forces the same way Smith, Marvin, and Bibby eventually came to understand them and stay with the Hawks (assuming they don’t pull a surprise).

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joe johnson is called selfish because the other atlanta hawks free agents took less money to be part of a winning competitive team.what good is a star with no supporting cast.personally i wouldnt re-sign him.he has no heart.it showed in the playoffd earlier this year,definitely overrated.

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Daniel,

I get you, but thats dodging the question. How was he supposed to be aggressive in positioning himself for the pass when the plays called for him to stand in the corner while JJ or Flip went one-on-one? In half-court offenses, players don’t decide where to position themselves. They go where the play calls for them to go.

He did go inside and draw fouls plenty when he got the ball, as the 18-20 at the line game against Charloote showed. But that doesn’t answer the question I had, which is how is he supposed to get the ball more if the offense calls for all the plays to be run through JJ or Flip (or now Crawford) with him standing in the corner, Bibby and Josh on the wings, and Horford on the block? It’s no coincidence that he and Horford get the fewest touches, they’re always the furthest from the ball. Is Horford not aggressive enough either?

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That is assuming that they are running a called play, which does not happen as much as people think. Now, can Woodson make a more concerted effort to have the team focus on Marvin? Sure. I think we were seeing that some before the injuries. But, we also saw tenative play by Marvin, as well. The difference between him and Horford, is that Marvin usually has a size advantage on his defender, which would behoove him to get inside more. Al has to use quickness and a 10 footer to be effective. I think Al is doing just fine. I am saying all this about Marvin not because I am dogging him, just the opposite. I think his game can(and needs) to rise up (even more than Josh and Al) because I think he can be the key to this team being a good 4th seed type team to a team making that next step that everyone is talking about.
Some of it is coaching, but some of it is Marvin too. We seem to disagree on which part is the bigger part, but we agree on the outcomes.
This is another area where we will see when the season starts.

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I like the positive Marvin talk….he does need to step up. But also, Woody needs to make sure that Josh stays in the paint. Last season when we would swing the ball it would always end up in Josh’s hands for a long jumper. That needs to be Marvins shot.

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Daniel, I don’t think that there’s a team in the league that doesn’t have a default offense, in other words an offensive setup that you go into by default unless a different play is called. You think it’s purely by coincidence that the Jazz run the pick and roll on two thirds of their offensive plays, or that the Lakers run the triangle about the same amount of the time, or that Eddie Jordan’s teams fall back into the Princeton…or that the Hawks usually fall into ISO Joe/Flip? Not trying to be funny, but what exactly do you think Woody and Crawford and the rest of the team is referring to when they talk about the new guys “learning the system?” When plays other than that are called, it always seems to be Bibby that calls them, not Woody.

I agree that Marvin could be more aggressive. But there’s only so much you can do in the NBA if your coach runs an offense that by defalt calls for you to be standing 20 feet away from the ball? When JJ went out and “ISO Joe with Marvin in the corner” became “ISO Marvin with Mo in the corner” for a couple games, Marvin took a lot more shots. I don’t see how you can assign a bigger part of it to anyone but the coach, who dictates the offensive “system” the team plays in.

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Man, the pace is picking up here.

<—— Loves it!

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I hear you STO: I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. Hopefully, we will see some changes this season either from the play calling, Marvin himself or both. Hopefully both.

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Bosnian- I am with you that Turk is better than VC, but I am not sure the Hawks win the division (I hope they do). I think the pick up Brandon Bass is a realy nice addition to that team. Honestly, I think it was the best free agent signing in the East (including Rasheed).

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Im sorry if your feeling have been hurt Daniel. I hope you feel better. Yea, I noticed the sarcasm from Ray. I always notice the sarcasm from you and Sautee and non mental and ken… from the whole hate cell that you guys run here. I appreciate you. I understand you. Thats why I have no problem showing you my NUTTZ, which you clearly enjoy.

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Is Turk a Hall of Famer?

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Niremetal, you make some good points about the comparisons, but on examination, not so much. First and foremost, you forgot for a second about COSTS AND GAINS.

First, JJ costs tons more in salary than Roy, tons, and, if he is to stay, none of us can count that high. Roy is still under his rookie contract and his next one won’t be a fraction of JJ’s.

Second, management took JJ and thought that he was the ANSWER at the point. Thus, they selected MW instead of Paul or Williams. We are talking huge here, sports fans, huge. A backcourt of one of those and Roy for the future, at the low dollars that would cost.

The discussion could really end here, as I take it you would agree since you blew off these points previously, didn’t even mention them.

However, let me say that I think I have a feel for these things and JJ plays the game, his style, is catching and looking and then deciding what is best. That is the way he sees the game. There is a reason that Phoenix was willing to let him go. I do not think that he can change his style anymore than Arenas can.

Now, Roy might hold it, I haven’t seen him enough to tell, but I have seen him enough to KNOW that he has a choice. He can let it go quickly, he understands the passing game and is completely comfortable with it, and has a sense of when the advantage is there or will lkely be in a moment, and when to just keep it moving.

You can’t put the ball in a player’s hands as much as it’s in a top scorer’s if that soorer only sees the court like he has to make something happen. I don’t care if his name is JJ or LeBron. It ruins the game for the rest of the team, no matter how many games can be won.

We will see if ShaQ can lead LeBron away from that type of style, or if LeBron persists with it and never in my view will come close to the truly greats, and among them I include Kobe last year, but not in years past except when he played with Shaq and even then not so much.

I know that this is near sacralege but I always was bored watching Oscar play for exactly the reasons I’m articulating here. People can talk about triple doubles all they want; to me, the game is about five players moving the ball and themselves to create advantage. Sure great shooters and scorers will take more of the shots but not at the expense of the flow, rather as a consequence of it while at the same time being its generator.

Me, I would not pay JJ the dollars he undoubtedly will want unless he shows that he can play that style of ball, which I think is what championship teams demand of their stars. It was that way back in the day, and I think it so today. It’s time for JJ to step up.

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BosnianBaller you call vince carter a ball hog so what does that make crawford??? A ball hog we bash carter because he has never been in a winning team but we turn the other way and not say the same about crawford i hate that we got him he score 20 points but shot stupid shots and does not pass the ball what so ever and i’ve watched a lot of magic basketball games hedo is a complete player but he is no super star or all star he is a really good player and i might call him a system player he can put a team on his back for 2 or 3 games but can also loose focus and jack up contested shots, he is no hall of famer but he is a good all around player but i cannot say he is better than vince no way….

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thehawksleftthenest I think the difference between carter and crawford is that crawford is not the main player.Carter has never lived up to his hype of being the number one guy.Crawford has always played on crappy teams he hasn’t been to the playoffs at all.Carter has had Jefferson and Kidd and didn’t really stand out at all.I’m not saying that he should of won the title with those nets teams,but I can’t remember one good playoff game he has been in.I think Crawford will pass more b/c he is in a situation where the Hawks are winning so he will pass more as he said he would.

I would take Turkouglu in a heartbeat over Carter.Turkoglu is team first.He is no superstar neither is carter.Turkoglu is 6′10 and pretty much played point guard in the playoffs not to mention he scores close to 20 points per game.Carter is better than Turkoglu in scoring and maybe on D,but overall Turkoglu is better.I want to know why you think Carter is better?Based on what?Orlando will not be the same team they were last year b/c Hedo left.

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Also Vince’s career stat averages in the playoffs are 25 ppg, 7 rbg, 5 asg, and 1.5 steals. Those numbers are even better than JJs.

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big tone i do agree with you that jj is selfish in the fact that other players took less money to stay with a winning team. Rick sund did everything within reason to make this team better including resigning bibby which is joe js boy. so then you jj get offered an extention to stay with teammates who want to stay with you. Now you want to test free agency it is not right. i dont think 4 60 mill is not a bad contract it is a raise. Bibby signed a 3 year deal to stay with you joe and now you want to test the waters. Sounds like a man and woman relationship but he is selfish and some of us might do the same thing nevertheless

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Flash,

1) We draft CP3 or Deron, then we don’t get to draft Roy.
2) Roy is about to get a pretty massive contract starting next summer. So the cost of him vs. JJ will be pretty close…Roy will be getting.

In any case, I wasn’t advocating their relative costs, the wisdom of drafts past, or anything like that. All I was doing was comparing JJ and Roy on the court. And on that front, we all know JJ isn’t your cup of tea anyway, but I’ll respond quickly to a couple things.

First, you obviously didn’t watch JJ in Phoenix much if you think he played the way you describe back then. Sorry, but he didn’t. He was a true scion of D’Antoni’s offense who moved the ball VERY well in Phoenix. And he actually did play a decent amount of PG there – about 6-8 minutes per game even when Nash was at 100% – and very frequently got the ball early in the clock. D’Antoni wanted JJ back. The reason he was let go wasn’t because he held onto the ball too long, it was because Phoenix already had $45M/yr wrapped up in just 3 players, and JJ would have made it $60M just for 4. At that price, they could fill out their roster with minimum salary players and STILL have been in the luxury tax. They couldn’t afford to keep JJ and have a bench worth more than 2 cents so they wisely let him go (and somehow managed to dupe Billy Knight into thinking that there was a chance in hell they’d re-sign him at more than $9M per year, but that’s a story for another day…).

Anyway, comparing JJ to Roy as far as “who holds the ball more” is just for kicks and giggles anyway because they’re playing in such different systems, as I already said. We can’t say how JJ would look in McMillan’s ball movement oriented system (although as I said, we do know how JJ did in an even more ball movement oriented in Phoenix) or how Roy would do in an ISO offense like Woody’s.

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yeah roy is younger then joe

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kirknga,

Excellent point about the economy.

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*ding*

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Does any body know whats up with flip? Is he going to sign?

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*Ding*

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Woodson said, “We haven’t had a young point guard like Teague since I’ve been here, a kid that possess all the different kinds of skills that he does”.

Any doubt Woody hates Acie?

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i totally agree with ramon and if you want me to take it a step further BosnianBaller id you take the aveages that hedo has averaged with the magic the last 2 years out he old averages about 13 to 14 points a game
and we critize carter but carter has been to the playoffs more than jj and you make no sense you say that vince has no help in new jersey (so that means he is the primary offensive option) but you call him a ball hog and carter almost averaged the same amount of assist last year than hedo now imagine that number with the magic which have plenty of weapons… and we criticize vince for not winning a championship with the good new jersey teams then we should also criticize kidd
all in all i believe vince is a much better player than hedo although i will say that hedo is a better defender….

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No jerry, he doesn’t hate Acie. Acie is a scrubb. He is the 3rd or 4th string PG right now in Golden State. He’s freekin behind Speedy for God’s sake. Go to Golden State’s web site. They broadcast every practice. He got hurt the first day of training camp.

Bosnian Baller,Vince Carter is a Hall of Famer. Turk has yet to make one AllStar appearance. I rest my case.

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Samuel I am not saying career wise that hedo is better than carter.carter has had the best career between the 2.I’m not sure he is a hall of famer tho.Right now if I had to choose between the 2 i would pick hedo.

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Heh. Lots of things I could pick apart in that point, Flash, but I’ll let you get the last word

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VC
* 8-time NBA All-Star selection: 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 (did not play in 2002 due to injury)
* 2-time All-NBA:
o Second Team: 2001
o Third Team: 2000
* NBA Slam Dunk Champion: 2000
* NBA All-Rookie First Team: 1999
* NBA Rookie of the Year Award: 1999
* The Sporting News NBA Rookie of the Year: 1999[47]

If that’s not Hall of Fame. They should shut the place down.

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Hedo’s Awards

2001 NBA All-Rookie Second Team
2008 NBA Most Improved Player

WOW!!

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(I don’t know why I bothered there….I fully expect Samuel’s response to be about as powerful as “You forgot Poland…”)

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I’m out. I got a Futbol game tomorrow.

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thehawksleftthenest – all the games in the playoffs and about 10 regular season games not including the hawks games.If you live in Orlando do you really think for this upcoming season that there will be enough of the ball to go around to everyone(Howard,Lewis,Carter,Nelson,Pietrus) I think Carter’s numbers will go down b/c of this by how much I don’t know.Plus what is the Magic Starting line up this year(If you know please share)? Will Carter be a 3 or 2? When they had Hedo they were all huge on the front court and caused a lot of mismatches(yes lewis was a big part of that as well).

We will see how it works out in the season.Can’t wait

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And DANIEL ,

Hey mister! I was messing with truth serum , but I wasn’t trying to be MEAN ! I thought it was a funny joke, and he seemed to take it really well (I was impressed). But NOOOOOOOOOOOO….YOUUUUUUUUUUU had to go and stir things up, didn’t ya? Ya scurvy knave, you!

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niremetal -I agree with you on the Elton Brand thing.Last year everyone(so called tv analysts such as Tim Legler and others) said the 76ers would be one of the top 3 or 4 teams when they got Brand.It wasn’t until he got hurt that they started to play good basketball.

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fail*

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Bosnian, you do realize last season Hedo had more turnovers than Carter, even though Carter often faced double teams? And a better play maker to create his own shot than Carter? Ok……

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Actually, yes I do. Because Vince presence puts West in foul trouble all series long. Do you think Philly almost knocks off Orlando last year if Vince was there instead of Turk?

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Hedo is right where he wants to be. Somewhere he can jack up shots and play no defense. Talk about fits. Let’s see if Toronto gets any better without Parker and Moon.

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(are a first)

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scrubb

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Asst coach Jim Todd said Woody has added a new offense this season. We will see…

http://www.nba.com/video/teams/hawks/2009/10/02/JimToddOct2.nba/

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If we lose JJ and sign future hall of famer Iverson, I think Iverson will average more points than JJ. Is he a better fit than JJ? Carter may or may not do similar in Orlando.

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Samuel is right on point! This sociological prophesying without the degree is a flaw. You don’t know what will happen until it happens. Sounds like another false prophet. When is the world going to end Mother Focker?

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BosnianBaller agian you are mistaken hedo is not the mpv of the orlando magic in the post season both dwight and reshard played better than him and i live in orlando and am pretty sure that the orlando starting line up when lewis comes back will be howard,lewis,barnes,carter,nelson and yes carter’s points will go down but his field goal percentige and assist will go up since he will have more open shots that in new yersey and will have better players around him and agian i’ve watched hedo play alot and he is not as good as what you describe him to be… he is not a x factor look at his season stats there not that great and you are basing your argument on 3 or 4 playoff games
niremetal i do understand your point of view but you have to understand that vince is playing for his hometown team and is motivated to win a championship and he is going to be the 3rd scoring opition so he does not have to carry a team on his back a perfect example of this could be ray allen when he was in seatle he had to carry that team but as soon as he got to boston he became the 3rd scoring option and look how that turned out….

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The FLASH is back! Good post too…

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Nire ,

How is Samuel’s question not valid? I contend that it’s valid, but I also say that it’s valid OUTSIDE of the argument y’all are having. The question is actually relevant to the argument, but it is relevant to any argument. Hence, it does not enhance the argument in any way, but also cannot be ignored. It’s a fall back, if nothing else.

Besides, wouldn’t you say that it also applies to Flash’s argument, regardless of whether you agreed with his viewpoint or not? Yes, you would, and rather conveniently, at that. Sorry, but I don’t view the question itself as hypocritical.

The use of it? Well, now that is a different story…

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Like it takes a village to raise a child, if Orlando wants a championship all roads run through Howard. If I am Gundy I would be benching anybody that can’t drive and dump off to Howard. While it is important for Carter and Lewis to spread the floor with their all star talent, next year should be thinking of Howard for MVP.

The same style of play will be important for the Hawks only spread between three players. If we don’t get the ball to Marvin/Josh and Al we will sit on 47 wins. To get to 52+ we got to go low. Or in Marvins case, drive the ball. Both the Hawks and Orlando shoot to many jumpers.

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Niremetal ,

Sorry about the last post, which was actually meant to be a response to the e-mail you sent. I’m apparently trying to do too many things at once, if I’m making such a serious blunder by referring to things that nobody on this blog can see the relevance or connection to. I apologize for that.

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Nire ,

In regard to your contest with Samuel, I was merely lending credence to the question itself, in regard to all of us and all of our arguments.

Read MY post more closely, and see that I never addressed either of you directly, I simply talked about your argument. I said you both brought up good points. And then I lent credence to the question he asked in the end. I didn’t say that his question was valid in connection to the argument. Sorry if you took it that way. Like I said before, it’s valid in connection with any opinion-based argument that has to do with seeing into the future, or the “woulda/coulda/shoulda” past.

And I recognize the difference between a question or statement in a vaccum, versus the use of it in an argument. You mentioned hypocrisy, and I was TRYING to explain to you that I know the difference between the value of a statement or question within a vaccum, versus the use of it. Hence my ending comments:

“Sorry, but I don’t view the question itself as hypocritical.

The use of it? Well, now that is a different story…”

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BosnianBaller vince is better than hedo…
and how is hedo the mvp of the magic in the post season when
dwight averaged 20.3 points 15.3 rebounds
rashard averaged 19 points 6.4 rebounds
hedo averaged 15.8 points 4.5 rebounds
yea it sure looks like he had the best post season NOT!!! hedo was over hyped this offseason

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KevinA ,

Never heard it put that way before. Nice.

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If this was my first time on this blog,I would have thought this was a Magic blog.Please leave Vince and Hedo alone.Can we have a new update or something.Pleassssssse Sekou.

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11:18 post by The Flash was straight up ON POINT, if you ask me. That explains Detroit, and it certainly explains Ben Wallace. It explains other things as well, but at the risk of inflammation, I’ll leave it alone.

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doc:

Remember my asking you about J-CRIT injuring himself in ATLANTA’s summer league? Here’s the upshot.

Crittenton Out At Least Two Weeks
Javaris Crittenton didn’t know what to expect when he had an MRI on Friday, but he knew that the pain in his left foot had become so unbearable that he couldn’t push through any longer. After arguably his best practice this week, Crittenton was shut down for the final minutes of practice. And, after the MRI revealed what he already knew — that he had a double bone bruise and a strained tendon — Crittenton had to accept that he would be out of action for at least two weeks.

“It’s frustrating,” said Crittenton, who originally hurt himself playing in the Atlanta Pro Am league in late July. “I wanted to come out because it’s training camp and we got a lot of guards. We got to compete. But it’s one of those injuries, you’ve got to give it time and let it heal, because if you keep playing on it, it could be a potential surgery or it keeps nagging you throughout the season, then I can’t play. I decided to sit it out and let it heal.”

Crittenton, wearing a protective boot, is still smarting over how the injury occurred. He said that his team was nursing a 12-point in the final minute and he was milking the shot clock when his defender came charging at him to pressure the ball. Crittenton said he dribbled around him, but the defender stepped on his heal, pushed down then fell on top of him.

“I should’ve gotten out the game,” Crittenton said, shaking his head. “I thought it was a tweak at first. I tried to get up and walk and I fell back down. I had to be carried off the court. I knew it was serious. But I didn’t know it was going to keep me out this long.”

Crittenton said he wore a protective boot while in Atlanta and upon his return to Washington but his foot never healed properly. He hadn’t done any conditioning until the day before training camp. The grueling schedule, with two-a-day practices, eventually took its toll. “I felt a little bit of soreness in pain over the days, but I’ve been able to make it through every practice,” Crittenton said. On Friday, “I had to sit down, I couldn’t really do it anymore.”

Our man has no luck. With FOYE and MILLER in the house, he’s headed out the door. DAMMED shame. I saw lots of good things in his play for the WIZ last year. Some team ought to tap him for PG behind a starter, and a solid back-up. If he could stay in a system for awhile, he just might learn something, and become a standout. I think he has the ability.

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…?

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SAMUEL:

I’m sure CRITTER agrees with you — NOW!!!!

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BIG RAY:

FLASH’s point about BROWN knowing how to utilize his talent and SAUNDERS being clueless in that regard makes me break out in a sweat over the ‘ZARDS. Not that last season didn’t leave a clammy chill on my bones. I see the anointed one is out already, but with a broken finger rather than his knee. That hasn’t really been tested yet. I wonder if anyone really believes GILBO will pick up where he left off two years ago, and be a super-star after THREE knee jobs. No way IMO.

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He does not show up in playoffs and always plays well when we are up. Take a look at the facts ATL.

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In terms of the VC vs. Tuk debate: Obviously, we will not really know how it will work until the season starts. VC is very talented, probably has more skill than Turk in some ways. I am one that tends to believe that the move will hurt the Magic. Turk is a better facilitator and his size really created problems for other teams when playing with Lewis. I also think that the Magic WAY over paid for Gortat. But, the addition of Bass can really change that teams ability to score in the post with either him or Howard cleaning the boards off the back side. I think the addition of Bass more than makes up for any possible drop with the VC move. I think Orlando or Clevland is the team to beat in the East. Boston is most likely (didn’t say it would happen) to drop out of the top three.

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Joe has lost his mind. No other team will pay him that kind of money. He is just a good player. Not a franchise player or anything like that. He was lucky with this past contract of 70 Million over five years. Let him go and use that cap money to get WADE or somebody better than him.

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