Did Johnson makes the right call?
Did Joe Johnson make the right call on not signing a contract extension with the Hawks? Time will tell. But you can bet the topic will be debated daily until the end of this Hawks season, when he becomes an unrestricted free agent.
HAWKSVILLE – Much has been and will be made about Joe Johnson’s decision to bypass signing an extension with the Hawks and become a free agent at the end of this NBA season.
And rightfully so.
In the minds of us common folk, the idea of staring down $60-plus million more dollars seems laughable in these harsh economic times. But Johnson is not one of us (common folk), and there are at least $70 million reasons for that. He also has something professional athletes have maybe once or twice, if they are lucky, in their entire careers — LEVERAGE.
By playing out the final year of his deal he’ll become a free agent in the summer of 2010, joining guys like LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh in a deep free agent class that has as many as a dozen different (financially capable) teams around the league salivating. So in that regard, he’d have been crazy to sign an extension for just four years if he stands to get not only another year but millions more by becoming a free agent next summer.
My email was flooded Tuesday afternoon by people wondering what JJ was thinking. Fans of the Hawks, writers from around the league and concerned citizens all wanted to know why he’d so such a thing. My response to everyone was the same, why wouldn’t he maximize his leverage at this time? Teams do so all the time when their players are free agents. In recent years the Hawks have had Josh Smith, Josh Childress, Marvin Williams, Mike Bibby and Zaza Pachulia play out the final years of their deals without an extension. In almost every case things have worked out well for both sides.
It’s simply a part of the business of basketball that Johnson explained to me the other day. He could have saved his words. I get it. I don’t assume that his loyalty is somehow in question because he turned down the offer, the same way I don’t (always) question a team’s loyalty when they allow a player to finish out his deal before deciding just how much they want to invest in said player for the future. Again, it’s called leverage.
The reality in all these instances is pretty clear, you have a player for the life of his contract unless a decision is made to change that dynamic. And it’s always for better (JJ) or worse (Flip Murray’s deal was just one year), through sickness (or injury in Speedy Claxton’s case) and in health (Smith has been as durable as any player I can remember through the first five seasons of his career).
I dare anyone to suggest that the Hawks haven’t squeezed every ounce of benefit they could out of having JJ on the roster – he’s got the mileage on his body to prove it if anyone wants to inspect the tread on his tires. He’s been to three straight All-Star games and for at least the better part of his first two years he carried this team on his shoulders as the youngsters grew up and learned the nuances of the NBA game. That’s why it’s so hard for me to digest some of the venom pointed in his direction now.
As I suggested in a comment on the previous post, the idea of a highly motivated All-Star in the prime of his career itching to take his game to another level (for any reason) is an ideal situation for your team. As good as JJ has been in the past, you have to think he’ll be even better this year with the seasoned and talented roster the Hawks have in place, not to mention the quality additions to the roster like Jamal Crawford and Jeff Teague in the backcourt and Joe Smith and Jason Collins in the frontcourt.
It’s the same argument made here by many when Smith, Childress, Williams and the like were put in a similar position as pending free agents in the final year of their respective deals.
Whether or not JJ made the right call for JJ remains to be seen. And we likely won’t have a solid answer until next summer’s free agent frenzy plays itself out. But there’s no way the Hawks can lose in the meantime. No way.
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366 comments Add your comment
Tagurit
October 1st, 2009
5:51 am
OKAY SO JJ IS LEAVING BECAUSE HE KNOWS WE DON’T HAVE A CHAMPIONSHIP LEVEL CENTER, THAT IS SO STUPID. SEEMS LIKE HE WOULD HAVE FIGURED THAT OUT LONG BEFORE 5 YEARS PASSED AND ASKED FOR A TRADE ALREADY. JJ AND WOODY WERE THE GUYS WHO TURNED THE HAWKS AROUND BUT NO CHAMPIONSHIP. WELL IF WE HAVE TO HAVE A CHAMPIONSHIP LEVEL CENTER THEN WHY WE NEED WOODY AND JJ. WE SHOULD TRADE BOTH FOR A CHAMPIONSHIP LEVEL CENTER THEN RIGHT? YOU SO STUPID TRUTH SERUM.
flea
October 1st, 2009
6:12 am
can we trade JJ for KMART + THOMPSON/HAWES? we’re not even sure if JJ have any intentions to re-sign so its better to trade him than lose him for nothing. anyway this team proved that we can still win games without JJ. Remember last season that marvin step up when JJ got injured and maybe you’ll noticed that we had a BETTER BALL MOVEMENT without him. all marvin needs is a chance to prove himself that he’s capable of taking over this team without JJ and besides i think KMART is capable of filling the void offensively cause he’s a better 3 pt shooter than JJ and he’s more aggressive in attacking the basket. he may not possess the kobe moves and may not be as flashy as JJ but he’s just as solid and more consistent and we have crawford to back him up who’s capable of scoring big and distributing the ball like JJ maybe the only thing that we’re really going to miss is JJ’s defense and we’re also going to have either HAWES/THOMPSON who looks to be a young promising big man who can still improve and help us. i think we’re a similar situation with philly when they still have AI and after they lost him most analyst thought that the sixers are finished but whoever expected that iggy will step up after they lost AI. i can see marvin doing the same thing if ever we lost JJ. I might be wrong but who knows. we haven’t seen marvin’s full potential yet.
PG- bibby/ teague
SG- crawford/ kmart
SF- marvin/ evans
PF- josh/ thompson?/ joe/
C- al
Dos Hawkquis
October 1st, 2009
7:46 am
BIG RAY, ARIOSE, NIRE, ET AL,
I think that if the Hawks had offered JJ 5/75mil or 6/90, it would have been a GOD FATHER SCENE, the Hawks made him an offer that he COULDN’T refuse. The Hawks made a half-hearted attempt at signing JJ. At any given time a pro player is one play away from a career ending injury, so he has to protect that.
Instead of blaming JJ for not signing the extension, you all should be furious that the ASG didn’t make a SERIOUS and CONCERTED effort to keep JJ. Our rage is misplaced!!
“I don’t always watch basketball, but when I do, I prefer the Hawks. Stay thirsty my friends!”
SNM
October 1st, 2009
8:21 am
Who cares about these filthy rich….greedy….self centered cry babies!!!! All they want it more more more money….this is one reason I hate and I mean HATE most pro sports. They aren’t team players at all, but more concerned about what’s in it for them….how well they do….how many points they score….blah blah blah. The only true sports professionals who really have to earn their money play tennis, golf…..where they usually don’t make much unless they play well day in and day out. The other sports can turn lack luster athletes into millionaires over night….I would love to play any sport today for the bare minimum….I would immediately gain a 300% pay increase or better….I think I could live on that and be quite happy….but since most pro athletes feel that somebody owes them something…that just is note enough….bring on college games….at least they play with enthusiasm and heart….not for money…..I’m finished ranting!!!!
Big Ray
October 1st, 2009
8:27 am
Dos Hawkquis ,
I’m not enraged at all. And why should we be furious that the ASG “only” offered JJ a contract that, while one year shorter than the last one, pays an average of $1 million more a year? How is a raise insulting? This is a business. You NEVER put your best or final offer on the table right away.
Which brings me to another point. I’ve heard many times from more than one person that over the years (specifically post-Jordan domination era), almost no team won the NBA championship without a dominant or very influential big man. Okay, so why is it that some of those same people are clamoring that is either a max contract or near-max contract worthy player? Why all the noise about him deserving and guaranteed to get $16-$18 million a year from somebody, if not from the Hawks? If it’s the world-beating big man that matters, then WHY oh WHY all the hue and cry about a 2-guard that isn’t even the best at his position? How do you reconcile the two lines of thought? I’m not even sure I want to hear the spin job on this one….
Big Ray
October 1st, 2009
8:33 am
SNM,
Tennis and golf? Tennis and golf. Tennis and golf?
You have a point about personal performance, as those are for the most part NOT team sports. And golf is the only “sport” where you can be well and truly WAY past your prime, and still play professionally. Hell, they even have a tournament for you if you’re truly ancient.
As for tennis, after the days of Agassi and Sampras, I just ceased to give a rat’s arse. To hell with it. Although, I can’t hate on the women (some of them are hotter than Lamar Odom’s Visa card, now that he’s married one of the Kardashians).
Big Ray
October 1st, 2009
8:35 am
In the 8:27 a.m. post, meant to read “okay so why is it that some of those same people are clamoring that JJ is a max or near max contract worthy player”….
Daniel
October 1st, 2009
8:40 am
Good grief this blog sometimes gets as bad as the Falcons blog.
Big Ray- I am going to have to disagree with you on your 10:11 post. Obviously, since I am the one that wrote the opinion that there are several teams that will give Joe 16-18mil per a year.
Yes, the market has taken a downturn, but with several teams like the Knicks, Nets, Suns… possibly Clevland and Miami, that have sold their fan bases that they have been making moves for the next off season HAVE to get something done. That is five teams and there are only two legit stars (Lebron and Wade) to be had. Joe and Bosh will be the next two guys out of the shoot. The economy will have an effect on the mid tier player/ vet min guy, much like it did with Joe Smith and Bibby this past off season. But, Joe will get offers, not saying they won’t be offers that the Hawks can’t or won’t match, but they will be better than his extension offer from the Hawks.
Daniel
October 1st, 2009
8:44 am
Also, I don’t hear a lot of “hate” for Joe on this site. Yes, there are a couple, but I suspect they are all the same person, who is having a conversation with himself.
I think most of us realize that it is the smart business decision for Joe. Not, the best decision for us as fans (that would be for him to play for free). Also, the ASG, made a reasonable start offer so I am not upset with them either.
It will mean that our next summer will have some serious drama, but it will not affect this season at all.
dap01
October 1st, 2009
8:46 am
I like what Woodson is saying. I like what everyone on the team is saying. We have options in the front court and the backcourt. We have a good team now with the veterans and we have good young prospects. We are in good shape with the salary cap. We have good character guys on the team who are likable. We have players who have yet to reach their potential. Why are we so down and why are we debating things that really dont matter.
We could blosson into an elite team.
Thanks for the info, Sekou. I look forward to every nugget of information that you give.
Go Hawks.
Daniel
October 1st, 2009
8:54 am
dap01- totally agree with you on liking what Woodson has been saying.
btw-dang, I was starting to believe…. well, see you on the Braves blog in the off season.
Wanted to throw something out there, Love the Sekou piece on Jamal. We have had a couple of bloggers from NY and GS come in and tell us to not expect too much from Jamal. They say that he is great guy and always comes in “saying all the right things”. I know that will have to just wait and see to find out the truth. But, do you guys think that we are seeing a different Crawford(playing defense!!) or are we buying into to the usual preseason hype?
I am not offering an opinion either way. Just wanted to get your guys take on the situation.
niremetal
October 1st, 2009
9:05 am
Ray,
The spin is pretty easy on that one – the “big man” I was talking about is necessary, but far FAR from sufficient. If that were all that was needed, guys like Karl Malone and Deke wouldn’t have retired without a title. The big man is one piece, and it’s actually not usually the most expensive piece (Grant, Rodman, and Ben Wallace were not the highest-paid players on their teams; even Dwight Howard makes less than Rashard). All of the title-winning teams of the past two decades except for the ‘99/’03 Spurs also had an All-Star caliber wing player (Dumars, Jordan, Drexler, Kobe, Rip/Tayshaun, Wade, Pierce/Allen). And even the ‘99 Spurs had the not-so-long-ago All-Star wing Sean Elliott.
No one said that a world-beating big man is ALL that matters. It’s just a necessary piece. And the rest of the pieces aren’t going to come cheap, at least not if you want to win a title. Just ask the Magic – they’re paying Rashard Lewis $120M, which seems like “overpaying” until you consider that they’d never have won 60 games or made it to the Finals without him.
glenn
October 1st, 2009
9:07 am
He’ll be back . He’s not a New York kind of guy . He’s southern & low key . After taxes he wouldn’t have any advantage unless he made it up in endorsements . Like I said, he is low key . Another thing , New York & New Jersey aren’t winning anything anytime soon . JJ gets to prove he should get more & I hope he does . There is something no one has mentioned . Joe Johnson hand picked this franchise when he was in Phoenix . The Hawks were considered a joke when he got here . How quickly we forget how much ridicule JJ got for wanting to leave the high flying Suns for the disfunctional Hawks . This franchise was a bigger mess all the way around . But guess what ? This is the team he wanted to play for . The Hawks are now a young contender & he is the leader of the team . So he wants to earn a fifth year . I hope he does .
KevinA
October 1st, 2009
9:49 am
It’s a good thing we can agree on nothing. The offer to JJ was higher than I think he is worth. Why? Looking out over the next three years.
The cap will be smaller.
Owners losing 20 million a year.
Al will need a raise.
Chills needs to be signed next year.
Bibby will have to be replaced (if Teague comes through, this concern will be relieved)
Joe Smith/Collins are old and how long and how cheap can we play these guys.
ZaZa and Evans are good but not good enough.
Signing JJ for more than 14 million per year will crimp future moves in all of these areas. JJ can change his style of play and become the 16-17 million dollar man. He still needs to prove it by turning Josh/Marvin and Al into more dangerous options resulting in a much higher efficient offense. If that does not happen we can’t afford that high of a contract.
Let’s say he shot FG% of .460, made 23 pt’s per game, added an assist per game, drove more and got fouled more, added an assist per game, lowered his turn over ratio half a point, all with playing 36 min per game. Then pay the man the money.
macaroni tony
October 1st, 2009
9:55 am
Not Looking Good
Stan Van Gundy Takes Vince Carter to Task Defensively
It didn’t take long for Magic coach Stan Van Gundy to let his new star know that no one is immune from his sometimes-biting, often-surprising critique.
Vince Carter — the eight-time All-Star — caught Van Gundy’s wrath Wednesday, just the second day of training camp. Often treated with kid gloves during his time in New Jersey, Carter became the example of what not to do late in the morning practice.
“He (Carter) did not play well defensively today. He didn’t do a good job out there. He’s capable of doing a lot better, and that’s what I want to see,” Van Gundy said. “As a matter of fact, we’ll talk to him about that and show him some (film) clips tomorrow.”
Van Gundy was particularly upset when Carter fell asleep on one defensive possession, allowing J.J. Redick to catch and score on a back-door play.
“No, I’m not surprised (about Van Gundy’s criticism),” Carter said when told of Van Gundy’s assessment. “You can have 12 turnovers (and nothing is said) with him, but you let one guy go back-door and get caught looking, he’ll let you have it. I won’t make that mistake again.”
Carter, now going into his 12th NBA season, was obtained in a trade from New Jersey this summer. He is the one expected to put the Magic over the top after they lost badly in the NBA Finals in June.
“He did not play with great focus, particularly near the end of the scrimmage,” Van Gundy said. “He just didn’t do as good a job as I know he’s capable of. He’s a smart guy and capable of being good defensively. He wasn’t at that level today. I think he would tell you that, too.”
Dos Hawkquis
October 1st, 2009
9:57 am
BIG RAY,
All that I am saying is, if the Hawks had presented a 5/75 or 6/90, this would have scared other teams off or they really will have to come with it. Do you play poker? You can bluff the hell out of someone, make them fold with a pair of Queens and you have an Ace/King.
I don’t think that any team out there would come higher than 6/90 for JJ. This lets JJ, your fan base, and other teams know that you are serious!!
Like Beyonce says, Hawks should have “put a ring on it.” 6/90 is definitely a “ring.”
“I don’t always watch basketball, but when I do, I prefer the Hawks. Stay thirsty my friends!”
macaroni tony
October 1st, 2009
10:00 am
Will Joe Johnson’s Future Be in Atlanta?
Posted Sep 30, 2009 12:30PM By Matt Moore (RSS feed)
Since arriving in Atlanta in 2005, Joe Johnson has been the resident star of the Hawks. Josh Smith draws the oohs and aahs with the highlight reel dunks and eye-popping stat lines, but Johnson has been the only player to really approach greatness, his finest moment coming in the 2007 playoffs, which we mentioned a few days ago.
It’s long been expected that Johnson would sign an extension within the last few weeks, to lock him up with the Hawks for the forseeable future, without any question of him going elsewhere in the summer of 2010.
Turns out: not so much.
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution reports today that Johnson has elected not to sign the extension the Hawks have offered and will become a free agent next summer. In doing so, Johnson has rejected a four-year, $60 million offer from the Hawks, which is kind of a lot of dough. You could make a lot of pizzas with that. You could feed all the Ninja Turtles pizza, including Michelangelo, almost a dozen times with that much dough. And Johnson feels he can do better.
Though Johnson has an impressive set of skills, being able to play as a shooting guard running point as well as filling time at the the three in a pinch, it’s hard to argue with his age (he’ll be 29 when he hits the market next year), minutes, and history that he’s worth a max-max-max contract. He was 13th in scoring this year, and had an abysmal playoff run, especially when compared to the year before. It’s hard to see teams lining up offers the same way they will for LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and others in the ‘10 free agent class.
Still, even if the offers are dimmed for Johnson more than he seems, electing not to sign the extension may have been the best move. If he and his agent can generate a perception that the interest is out there, he can translate that into a bigger contract from the Hawks, which is probably a pretty likely scenario. Hawks blog Peachtree Hoops outlines the possibilities for Johnson and comes to much the same conclusion, though they’re hoping Johnson signs for less money.
There are other options, though, if we whip out our crystal ball.
New York is obviously focusing all its intentions on LeBron. But in order to lure him to the Big Apple, they’ll need someone else to show as his sidekick. You know, the player that the Cavs have failed to provide him with since he was drafted. Signing Johnson would pretty much make it so that as long as they have a breathing point guard (which is essentially all Chris Duhon is), and anything resembling a frontcourt that can just rebound (kind of like the Cavs have now), James will not only be facing the lure of the bright lights of the city, but a solid chance to compete with a talented and flexible roster IF Johnson signs.
If you’re opting for the smaller markets, there’s Charlotte or Minnesota. Both teams will have at least some cap space (depending on what the Bobcats do with Raja Bell and Raymond Felton), and signing Johnson would fill their most obvious need at small guard. Minnesota presents a young talented roster that figures to be on the rise over the next few years, with a glaring hole at two-guard. Minnesota also will have the money to throw at Johnson. Cold winters may not spark the interest of Arkansas’ sixth or seventh favorite son, though.
There are other options if you put your imagination to the test (Boston, Houston, and Chicago to name a few), but the most likely scenario is still Atlanta. He’s built a home and identity there, and if he can’t drum up the interest elsewhere, making a home there could be his only option. It’s a gamble Johnson has made, and this year represents his only chance to improve his odds.
niremetal
October 1st, 2009
10:21 am
I’ve read Moore’s stuff. I hope no one’s paying him to write stuff. Like Kelly Dwyer on Yahoo, he decides early on what players/teams he likes and what players/teams he doesn’t. Once he decides, it doesn’t really matter what happens thereafter. He has no NBA contacts and is basically just an outsider fan….kinda like me – someone with an interest in basketball and way too much time on his hands. Except he thinks his rants deserve to be featured on a widely-read site and I realize that my drivel should be reserved for the comments section of my favorite team’s blog.
Daniel
October 1st, 2009
10:44 am
glenn- I hope you are right.
dos- I think you are right, and he will probably end up with a 5th year/6th option (75/90 mil.) which is good money and the smart move.
Dos Hawkquis
October 1st, 2009
11:03 am
DANIEL,
I think that if the Hawks presented that and JJ didn’t sign it, the backlash would be warranted. Everyone would have called him nuts to turn that down. Then he would look like a fool. 5/75 or 6/90 is about what he is going to get. I don’t see him getting a dollar more than that.
“I don’t always watch basketball, but when I do, I prefer the Hawks. Stay thirsy my friends.”
Drewcat
October 1st, 2009
11:15 am
Joe did the right thing by rejecting the deal and I’ll tell you why.
This summer’s free agency is a player’s market as Sekou mentioned. With at least a dozen teams with capable of offering max dollars, the amount of max dollar talent DOES NOT outweigh the number of teams offering the big money. SO in this case, even with all the JJ anti-superstar campaigns, Joe may still have enough leverage to get a better deal that the one originally offered by the Hawks.
I still believe that Joe will re-sign with ATL for a few reasons:
1) The Hawks showed their loyalty to their star player by being proactive and attempting to re-sign Joe at the earliest possible time. That shows commitment.
2) The Hawks will still have cap flexibility to offer Joe more money (if he exceeds expectations this season, and plays beyond what we think he’s capable of). With Collier, Joe Smith, Mo Evans, RandMo all coming off the books and a decision to be made about Horford’s contract extension the Hawks remain intact financially.
3) Joe can get it done here! To all the haters who believe that there’s no way we can win without a legitimate center, and that Horford is playing out of position: STOP! This team has cohesion and experience playing together. They are playoff tested and improve perennially. Joe’s an All-Star and with the emergence of Josh Smith, we have two guys who can take over games. Also, we have veterans who can weather the storm.
Joe did the right thing by rejecting the offer, but HE WILL BE BACK. This is his team and he knows it. We’re moving in the right direction. Go Hawks!
niremetal
October 1st, 2009
11:15 am
The fifth year is what’s key more than the dollar amount. This is going to be the last big-money contract JJ can get. He will want to be secured at least 5 years. You never, ever see All-Stars settling for a 4-year deal at this stage in their careers.
Daniel
October 1st, 2009
11:33 am
Dos- I agree with you. But, I also understand the ASG plan as well. They made an reasonable(although low ball in terms of years offer) as a starting point. We don’t know how much discussion went on between the two to see if Joe asked for another year, or if he just decided to not drag it out now and wait for this off season when he has all the leverage.
I am going to go with that they do come to agreement next summer in the neighborhood of a 5 year deal with 6th year option for a 90 milion if the option is kicked in.
rms
October 1st, 2009
11:58 am
Any updates as far as what is actually happening on the court during training camp. Getting tired of reading speculation about what a player should or shouldnt do, lets get to the real action. There is a preseason game tonite and I know the Hawks start next week some time. I know preseason is nothing to get excited about but its better than reading about players playing against themselves. Of course they would look good. Lets see them play against better athletes and real defensive schemes!!
A Tribe Called Quest
October 1st, 2009
12:00 pm
Why is everyone so surprised that Jamal Crawford can pass?
THE GUY HAS AVERAGED 4+ ASSISTS FOR THE LAST FEW YEARS. THAT’S ALMOST AS MUCH AS OUR STARTING POINT GUARD
A Tribe Called Quest
October 1st, 2009
12:02 pm
“Why there’s more animosity directed at the player that declines an extension than to the team that declines to sign a player to an extension ”
Who says that? I think we were all pissed Smoove wasn’t extended 2 summers ago
A Tribe Called Quest
October 1st, 2009
12:07 pm
As someone said on Hawksquawk, by Joe declining this extension, he adds the 5th year for 2014 where he can make 18 mill — 3 times as much as he’d make if he took 4 years and signed a deal after that.
Savvy move
Ariose
October 1st, 2009
12:35 pm
New Mike Woodson Article from the NBA Website:
http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/vince_thomas/10/01/diversity/index.html
fudd21
October 1st, 2009
12:56 pm
J Smooth DID NOT sign the extension that was offered to him 5/$45 before he became a restricted free agent 2 years ago. I don’t remember anyone on this blog calling him selfish. So why is JJ being called selfish now. Some of the comments on this blog are AMAZING to me.
Lebron, D Wade, C Bosh, Kobe among other stars (ESPN has a whole list of people who will be free agents next year) have not signed extensions. Are they selfish too? The fact of the matter is several teams have made room to sign a big name free agent next year. Only a few of them will be able to. Those teams that don’t will definitely look JJ up. He then will have to make a decision (based on whatever his criteria is) as to what is the best option for him. It’s the same thing any of us would do when it comes to our own profession!
niremetal
October 1st, 2009
12:59 pm
Read this article and search for YouTube videos of this kid:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091001/ap_on_sp_co_ne/bkc_one_handed_player
Great form on his shot, great timing on D. He might turn a few heads in the MAAC….
Kellie J
October 1st, 2009
1:13 pm
I hope leverage is the only reason. I would be disappointed if he left! The Hawks have improved every year since he arrived, and he has been a huge part and reason for that upward swing! I’m hopeful things will work out and Joe will remain a Hawk and as a Hawks fan I don’t want him to go, however I’m also a fan of his and if a better deal and opportunity comes along I wish him the best!
Daniel
October 1st, 2009
1:16 pm
Ariose- thanks for the link. I have been a Woodson supporter on here for awhile. I think he takes a lot of blame that is underserved (some that is). I also think that consistency has helped this team to develop together. However, what does race have to do with it? So if you happen to be one of the people that don’t like Woodson, then you are being racist? (that is suggested all the time on here by one particular blogger)
Seems to me the fact that Woodson is one of the longer tenured coaches in the NBA after only 5 years is more a testament to the league’s and sports in general’s trend toward WIN NOW, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR ME LATELY, and the fact that the ASG have shown patience. Although, the article didn’t mention that his GM (who was also Black) tried to fire him. But, I guess they don’t want to let the facts get in the way of a good assumption or at least an easy story.
Mike Woodson and his career deserve more attention than from a writer trying to shoe horn racial politics onto his story.
Ultimately, what is more harmful?
Daniel
October 1st, 2009
1:20 pm
Maybe I am reading a different blog, but who keeps saying that Joe Johnson is selfish?
why do we keep having reactions to things that don’t exist?
This is very much like when we had a couple of bloggers insisting that we not get too excited about Jamal Crawford, when all the discussion about Jamal was very realistic.
Is it just me?
NON MENTAL
October 1st, 2009
1:33 pm
niremetal
October 1st, 2009
12:40 am
” And why I was pushing for Woody to play Mario more this past year despite the fact that he’d never create a blip in the box score.”
I SEE WHY YOU ARE CALLED NON MENTAL. YOU OFTEN CORRECT BLOGGER FOR SYNTAX. I HOPE YOU LEARN TO MAKE AN COMPLETE SENTENCE. EITHER USE THIS CONJECTURE IN A COMPOUND SENTENCE OR DROP THE “AND WHY AND MAKE IT A COMPLETE SENTENCE. FLATTER DEEZ NUTTZ.
niremetal
October 1st, 2009
9:05 am
The big man is one piece, and it’s actually not usually the most expensive piece (Grant, Rodman, and Ben Wallace were not the highest-paid players
“THE BIG MAN” USUALLY REFERS TO THE CENTER NOT THE POWER FORWARDS OR SMALL FORWARDS, NON MENTAL/TAGUIT. NIETHER GRANT NOR RODMAN WERE CENTERS. YOU HAVE A NON MENTAL HABIT OF CONFUSING THE POWER FORWARD POSITION WITH THE CENTER POSITION.
niremetal
October 1st, 2009
1:34 pm
Daniel,
Uh…did you read any of the posts on the last 3 pages of Sekou’s last blog? Here’s just a few of examples of people calling JJ selfish, usually explicitly but sometimes using slightly different words:
http://blogs.ajc.com/hawks/2009/09/28/all-smiles-hawks-media-day/comment-page-2/#comment-31559
Replace the “31559″ in that URL with the following tags to find some other ones in the same vein:
31567
31573
31587
31596
31633
31653
31658
31665
And even on this blog, Sautee explicitly called JJ selfish.
So yeah…these are not reactions to phantom posts.
Daniel
October 1st, 2009
1:37 pm
Sautee called JJ selfish? HMMM… I didn’t see it, but I believe you.
Daniel
October 1st, 2009
1:41 pm
The rest of the comments about selfish came from these “pop up names” like Mario West, …., no name, etc. which just feels like one person trying to stir something up.
Maybe somebody stole Sautee’s name, I didn’t think he would make that call.
Daniel
October 1st, 2009
1:44 pm
Nire- Sautee was calling Joe selfish for not coming out of the game when he was exhausted, and not trusting in his teammates. Totally different point than calling Joe selfish for not signing the Hawks’ extension offer.
SMELL MY FEET
October 1st, 2009
1:49 pm
Tagurit/DANIEL
October 1st, 2009
5:41 am
Tagurit/DANIEL
October 1st, 2009
5:51 am
WHEN YOU CLOSE YOUR MOUTH I WONDER ARE YOU STUPID. WHEN YOU OPEN YOUR MOUTH THERE IS NO DOUBT YOU ARE STUPID. YOU WAKE UP VERY EARLY TO SHOW YOUR IGNORANCE @SS BREATH. HOW LONG HAVE YOU SMELLED LIKE THAT? IS THERE A CURE? DID IT TAKE ALL OF YOUR BRAIN POWER TO COPY AND PASTE THE LIST FROM THE PREVIOUS PAGE? DID YOU HAVE A POINT IN DOING SO THAT YOU CARE TO ENLIGHTEN ME? WHATS BETWEEN YOU AND MR TRUTH SERUM IS BETWEEN YOU TWO. PLEASE LEAVE ME OUT. BTW YOUR RATIONAL ABOUT WOODSON AND JOE NOT BEING KEY PIECES TO THE HAWKS EMERGENCE IS OBVIOUSLY WRONG AND STUPID. DIC BREATH!
niremetal
October 1st, 2009
1:51 pm
Truth-serum (currently masquerading as “non-mental”),
“Big man” can refer to power forwards or centers, depending on the context. In some contexts, people do use “big men” to refer to centers only. But that’s not the way I was using it, and many casual fans and sportwriters use the term “big man” to include PFs. For example:
http://hoopshype.com/players/chris_bosh.htm
Also, lots of teams have one coach for the “wings” and another for the “bigs,” and the “bigs” include both the Cs and PFs. For example, read Seven Seconds or Less, Jack McCallum’s wonderful book on…
Oh wait. It’s a book. And this is you we’re talking about. Nevermind.
Actually, I rarely correct bloggers for spelling and grammar. And I never correct for syntax, because there are no rules for governing syntax. My point about syntax was always that you always use the same syntax when you post as different people, which makes it easy to tell when you’re pulling one of your painfully un-clever attempts to fool people into thinking that some people actually agree with you.
But I will say this – it’s pretty funny that in your effort to correct my grammar, you misused the words “syntax,” misused the singular with “blogger,” misused the word conjecture (I think you mean conjunction), misused “an” instead of “a,” and forgot to include a close quote after “AND.”
In any case, I often use (as do other casual writers) less than complete sentences for stylistic effect when I’m emphasizing a point. In other words, I departed from the “rules” of writing ettiquette by design. You do it because you’re an idiot.
niremetal
October 1st, 2009
1:52 pm
Daniel,
I only posted the more obvious ones. You can read between the lines of a lot of the other posts on there and see that the same sentiment was expressed (though not necessarily insomany words) by more than a few people…
niremetal
October 1st, 2009
1:54 pm
*word syntax
The Flash
October 1st, 2009
1:55 pm
Money’s worth? You are kidding, right. If they didn’t sign JJ, then they had to have signed Roy, right? Anyone here prefer to have JJ rather than Roy? I didn’t think so. Some of us, me and Doc, thought any sane person would have chosen Roy anyway. But, without JJ, it would have been a must.
Now, without JJ those first two seasons, how much worser could the Hawks have been? So, you’d have had a much less expensive Roy who will become a restricted free agent and be yours for the future, as against where you are now.
Come on, Sekou, do the math. The signing in retrospect, which lead to a pass on a superior backcourt player to JJ in every respect, adds up precisely in opposition to what you propound, that management got its money’s worth. Of course, since management signed JJ thinking he’d be the next Magic, we’re talking Paul or Williams instead of Marvin, and one of them and Roy in the backcourt would, I believe, be THE BEST IN THE FREAKIN LEAGUE. Where is Andoman when a person needs him.
That said JJ played well. Whether he actually has fostered or impeded the growth of the young players around him, however, seems to me to be a matter open to debate. The guy does hold the ball an awful lot. Playing with a guy who does that does not allow anyone around him to maximize his potential, anyone.
Unless JJ shows some ability to play the game without holding it, my guess is that he will be surprised come open season. The Hawks under Sund seem to finally be getting it right.
NON MENTAL
October 1st, 2009
1:56 pm
TRUE, I FORGOT TO CLOSE THE QUOTATION. I CAN ADMIT WHEN IM WRONG. MOST SLEAZY VARMITS TRY TO COVER IT UP AND CALL IT STYLE. BUTT FACE.
NON MENTAL
October 1st, 2009
1:58 pm
niremetal
October 1st, 2009
1:54 pm
*word syntax
SOME MORE STYLE HUH BUTT FACE?
niremetal
October 1st, 2009
2:35 pm
Playing with a guy who does that does not allow anyone around him to maximize his potential, anyone.
People keep saying this as if JJ was the one drawing up “plays” that consisted of him in isolation and his teammates standing on the other side of the court not moving. Anyone who looks at JJ’s career progression from Phoenix to here would have to be blind if they didn’t admit that JJ is not a ‘natural ballhog’. He played a complementary role well in Phoenix where he often gave up the ball to his teammates (when he wasn’t the best player on his team), and showed no problem passing the ball in his first year here (when he was). Then Harrington left and Woody started calling the ISO plays en masse. And THAT is when people started calling JJ a ballhog (and yet somehow insufficiently assertive).
And PS – I would say JJ and Roy are a wash. I think they have very, VERY similar skill sets and their relative strengths cancel each other out – Roy is marginally quicker, JJ is marginally stronger; JJ is better posting up and shooting from the perimeter, Roy is better taking it to the rack; to get even more specific, Roy is better starting from the top of the key, and JJ is better starting near the baseline (which makes sense considering that’s where he spent a lot of his time in Phoenix). I don’t think either has a clear edge…especially when you consider the gargantuan difference in coaching quality that each has (Roy is always rested and plays within a ball-movement and off-ball movement focused offense).
I’ve talked to my Blazer-fan girlfriend about this PLENTY because we watch most of both teams’ games, and she actually thinks JJ is the better player (at least as of right now). Her gripes: Roy disappears for long stretches at a time, has a tendency to ignore open teammates, and has played less defense ever since he emerged as a star on offense. Sound familiar? I guess the grass is always greener…
niremetal
October 1st, 2009
2:37 pm
Heh – this sentence was meant to be included in my opening quote of The Truth:
The guy does hold the ball an awful lot. Playing with a guy who does that does not allow anyone around him to maximize his potential, anyone.
cp
October 1st, 2009
3:44 pm
What happened to this blog? It’s starting to look like the foolishness that has haunted those Falcons blogs.
jerrywest
October 1st, 2009
3:50 pm
From Truehoop:
“David Thorpe cautions against reading too much into individual defensive ratings, as coaching has such a massive effect. His example: With Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis, Seattle was a bad team. Both players, then, had very bad defensive ratings according to adjusted plus/minus. Yet in the last two years, those same players have been starters (Allen on the 2007/2008 Celtics, Lewis on the 2008/2009 Magic) on the NBA’s best defensive teams, with good defensive ratings. His point: Put a motivated player in a good defensive system, and they’ll perform.”On bad teams, there is often not a good plan,” Thorpe explains. “But get them playing for Tom Thibodeau or Stan Van Gundy, and all kinds of players can master when to go over the screen, when to go under, when to lock and trail, which 3-point shooters to close out, not fouling on shot fakes, when to help from the weakside. … Take the five worst defenders in the league — so long as they’re motivated to be good defenders — and sprinkle them among the Cavaliers, the Magic, the Celtics, the Spurs and the Rockets, and I think you’d be surprised at how effective they could be.’”
Hoosier
October 1st, 2009
4:08 pm
Sekou, you’re not confusing, I see your point. But, my point is that JJ will not beat that offer, and Sund will not better it, so why not look like you are showing some team loyalty and accept the offer?
Then, as far as the fans go, we are always left trying to understand, or “put ourselves in their shoes”, the player’s greed and ego that knows no bounds.
I don’t care how you dice it, it’s sickening, we are talking about $60M here. He is starting to become a selfish player on the court, as well, last year hardly ever passing out of double and triple teams. Once teams learn this, they will five on him!
I prdict JJ will be disappointed next summer, and take this very same offer. Which brings us back to my original point. Sometimes you should just be happy.