Did Johnson makes the right call?
Did Joe Johnson make the right call on not signing a contract extension with the Hawks? Time will tell. But you can bet the topic will be debated daily until the end of this Hawks season, when he becomes an unrestricted free agent.
HAWKSVILLE – Much has been and will be made about Joe Johnson’s decision to bypass signing an extension with the Hawks and become a free agent at the end of this NBA season.
And rightfully so.
In the minds of us common folk, the idea of staring down $60-plus million more dollars seems laughable in these harsh economic times. But Johnson is not one of us (common folk), and there are at least $70 million reasons for that. He also has something professional athletes have maybe once or twice, if they are lucky, in their entire careers — LEVERAGE.
By playing out the final year of his deal he’ll become a free agent in the summer of 2010, joining guys like LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh in a deep free agent class that has as many as a dozen different (financially capable) teams around the league salivating. So in that regard, he’d have been crazy to sign an extension for just four years if he stands to get not only another year but millions more by becoming a free agent next summer.
My email was flooded Tuesday afternoon by people wondering what JJ was thinking. Fans of the Hawks, writers from around the league and concerned citizens all wanted to know why he’d so such a thing. My response to everyone was the same, why wouldn’t he maximize his leverage at this time? Teams do so all the time when their players are free agents. In recent years the Hawks have had Josh Smith, Josh Childress, Marvin Williams, Mike Bibby and Zaza Pachulia play out the final years of their deals without an extension. In almost every case things have worked out well for both sides.
It’s simply a part of the business of basketball that Johnson explained to me the other day. He could have saved his words. I get it. I don’t assume that his loyalty is somehow in question because he turned down the offer, the same way I don’t (always) question a team’s loyalty when they allow a player to finish out his deal before deciding just how much they want to invest in said player for the future. Again, it’s called leverage.
The reality in all these instances is pretty clear, you have a player for the life of his contract unless a decision is made to change that dynamic. And it’s always for better (JJ) or worse (Flip Murray’s deal was just one year), through sickness (or injury in Speedy Claxton’s case) and in health (Smith has been as durable as any player I can remember through the first five seasons of his career).
I dare anyone to suggest that the Hawks haven’t squeezed every ounce of benefit they could out of having JJ on the roster – he’s got the mileage on his body to prove it if anyone wants to inspect the tread on his tires. He’s been to three straight All-Star games and for at least the better part of his first two years he carried this team on his shoulders as the youngsters grew up and learned the nuances of the NBA game. That’s why it’s so hard for me to digest some of the venom pointed in his direction now.
As I suggested in a comment on the previous post, the idea of a highly motivated All-Star in the prime of his career itching to take his game to another level (for any reason) is an ideal situation for your team. As good as JJ has been in the past, you have to think he’ll be even better this year with the seasoned and talented roster the Hawks have in place, not to mention the quality additions to the roster like Jamal Crawford and Jeff Teague in the backcourt and Joe Smith and Jason Collins in the frontcourt.
It’s the same argument made here by many when Smith, Childress, Williams and the like were put in a similar position as pending free agents in the final year of their respective deals.
Whether or not JJ made the right call for JJ remains to be seen. And we likely won’t have a solid answer until next summer’s free agent frenzy plays itself out. But there’s no way the Hawks can lose in the meantime. No way.
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366 comments Add your comment
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September 30th, 2009
5:33 pm
When the hawks sell their new jerseys I will not buy #2. I don’t like selfish people, but i will buy #5!
GO HAWKS!
September 30th, 2009
5:39 pm
GO HAWKS & JOSH SMITH!!!
AND JJ, YOU GO TO ANOTHER TEAM!
GO HAWKS!
September 30th, 2009
5:44 pm
MR. SELFISH go get your money!!!
Sautee
September 30th, 2009
6:02 pm
From Sekou’s article:
“When I’m out there, I don’t want to come out,” Johnson said. “I just pay the price later. In the heat of the battle, I don’t ever want to come out.”
That’s why Johnson cringes every time he hears complaints about Woodson playing him too much.
“I can’t put a lot of that on coach,” he said. “You have to put it on me, because even when he asks me if I want a break or if I’m tired, I always say no. Even if I’m tired and I can’t breathe, I still tell him no. That’s not me being selfish. I’m just a competitor to the point that I feel like I can really do something to help my team win.”
Joe, TRUST YOUR TEAMMATES!
And you are kidding yourself. It IS being selfish (or at the very least shortsighted) if you are fatigued enough that you can’t breathe, but think YOU can do better than a rested teammate. I LOVE the competitiveness, but not at the expense of hurting the team. Reserves are there for a reason. No wonder he turned it over in crunch time so much. He was gassed.
This attitude troubles me and I sincerely hope that Woodson starts “telling” Joe to come out instead of “asking”.
Imagine having to guard him late in the 4th quarter if he had only played 28 minutes instead of 38. Scary.
niremetal
September 30th, 2009
6:11 pm
Steve,
Sorry, I never did a sociological research project on why bloggers use handles. My guess is that it’s to give a sense of individually. I used to go by “Matt” around here until I noticed that someone else was posting using the same name. So I went back to my old email address and AIM screen name, which itself is a portmanteau of my 3 favorite bands from when I was a kid (NIRvana, REM, METALlica).
It’s not just on blogs. It’s on AIM, gtalk, and most other forms of internet communication. People like to use a handle that reflects their sense of individuality. Ariose used to be SalimFan. Big Ray is a big guy named Ray. Doc is…uh…a doctor. Sautee…well, I don’t know what the hell Sautee is about. He likes marinated steaks? Who knows. It’s an expression of his individuality.
Lastly, dunno if you noticed from all the Myspace/Facebook/Craigslist killings, but there’s a lot of psychopaths out there, and it’s not hard to figure out why it might be a bad idea to broadcast your name to the world when someone can use your name and Google to figure out where you live.
But my guess is you don’t actually care. You seem like you were just looking to attack people who disagree with you. In any case, most people won’t take kindly to those who come in, judge them, and call them cowards without even attempting a dialogue first. Just some free advice.
BWDIK,
So I take it your 10:1 odds are off the table? And I take it that you feel Josh and Marvin were giving the finger to the rest of the Hawks when they decided to play out their contracts instead of accepting the team’s offer a year before they had to? And the same is true of Hedo? And Bibby? And Nash? And the other 95% of NBA players who have played out a contract at some point in their career?
I have played sports, but I’ve never been a pro player and I’m gonna take a wild guess here and say you haven’t either. Because you seem to assume that JJ’s teammates are as ignorant about the business of pro sports as you seem to be.
Steve Brown
September 30th, 2009
6:35 pm
niremetal
Second time you said I called you a coward (sorry if you took my writing that way). Never said it or wrote it but I certainly feel people should have the moral courage to stand by their opinions with actual names. Are you the Matt that 790 let go, if you are, I really thought (think) you have real talent if someone would mentor you to round out the rough edges. Good luck and sorry you have to work with Kincade.
junebaby
September 30th, 2009
7:29 pm
i don’t consider tracey mcgrady a premier player, as a prev. blogger claimed! i believe he was headed that way at one point in his career, but all of that changed the last 3-4 years. with all the injuries limiting his time to 50 games of less lately, that’s not superstar material. i agree he is an impact player when healthy, but healthy is the key word. there’s just no comparison to players logging 70-82 games plus playoffs. this is no knock at mcgrady, but facts are facts!
rusty
September 30th, 2009
7:40 pm
but what do i know
i think you are the smartest one on this blog. you make sense. if jj wants a championship so bad he would show up for the play offs. woodson catered to jj so much that team totally lacks ball movement & this is why we get blown out early in games. iso joe offense will never win a championship.
MannyT
September 30th, 2009
7:58 pm
I don’t understand why people get so upset when someone else tries to maximize thier paycheck in a legal way. I doubt JJ is collecting compromising photos of ASG ownership or management. He’s just waiting it out to get the chance to get offers from other teams. If I am not mistaken, the average person can interview for a job almost anytime he/she likes. Not true for those with non-compete clauses and professional athletes. If he is willing to take his chances on avoiding a career threatenting injury, he should get the opportunity for some team to show him the money.
It’s not personal, it’s business…and one that JJ is unlikely to have significant leverage in after this next contract.
BWAF
loyalhawktillidie
September 30th, 2009
8:10 pm
guys i think we have to keep jj because lets face it wade and lebron are not coming here in a million years and jj looks better and younger than most of the other free agents….
Ryder
September 30th, 2009
8:11 pm
I believe that Joe Johnson is perfectly suited to be a number 2 star on a championship team, but the kind of guy that can take a team to a title. Sund has to realize this, and what Atlanta needs is a) a true number 1 threat that can take the heat of JJ or 2) establish enough depth offensively to where JJ’s not double teamed night in and night out.
Like it or not, right now Atlanta is in that group with Washington and Miami: good enough to make the second round but that’s it. Unfortunately that’s always been the mantra for the Hawks, and Sund realizes that perhaps Woodson is not the guy to take this team to the next level.
This is the year that we see if this team has what it takes to make that push into the East’s elite. Boston is not getting any younger, Carter may sink Orlando’s chances with his inability to play in the big games, and Cleveland is only a threat if LeBron doesn’t leave.
It’s now or never for the Hawks!
BosnianBaller
September 30th, 2009
8:25 pm
Hey Sekou can you ask JJ if that was really him witting those tweets in the offseason?
Mike is back
September 30th, 2009
8:34 pm
“We all look at Jamal as a guy that can score the ball and there’s no doubt, he’s as good as you can get in that respect,” Woodson said. “But he’s a much more dynamic player than that, as is [rookie point guard] Jeff Teague. And the sooner the rest of our guys figure out how they can play off of these guys, the more dangerous we’ll be.”
THERE IT IS quote from Woody…after reading this I’m sold…Woody is smart enough to know that both these cats bring a dynamic dimension to the team. Like I said…I like what I’m hearing from Woody…only time will tell…but Woody is giving early signs Teague will get some burn. Can’t wait to see how it all comes together…should be a monster.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NonMental
September 30th, 2009
9:08 pm
Bubba posse 8:52 pm call to hate;
Bubba hate association top 5 people to insult and assault with hate
Truth-Serum – get that mother frocker he keeps mocking our crew
Woodson – keep the hate on him I think hes ready to fold
Obama – hes against all the lobbyist that have held down science and medicine for years for the sake of a dollar and hes also helping the poor and disadvantaged. Hate on him at all cost.
Joe Johnson – hes Woody’s boy and probably wont sign unless hes got some assurance that Woodson will be around to. I need a lot of you to create fictitious names like Daniel.- good job masquerading ass But What do I Know, Daniel. Keep up the hate your identity is known only to the Bubba posse. You are to be promoted to Grand poot but for your undercover work.
Michael Vick – let’s Keep up the hate on this guy, especially now that Mattie lice is have a difficult time. Last game against the pat really show that the birds pass off the run and without a running game Mattie lice is exposed as a noodle arm quarter back.
Im truly enjoying the hate you guys are bringing forth. You have turned this blog site into a cell of hate. All true hawk fans will be turned off! Good job Bubba Nation!
norm van brocklin
September 30th, 2009
9:14 pm
Coaches dont take teams to the next level hard work and talent does. Coaches can only coach according to the level of talent available. DUH@!
Extraondinary Nuttz
September 30th, 2009
9:17 pm
When you complimented my nuttz you said a mouthful!!
Extraondinary Nuttz
September 30th, 2009
9:18 pm
Extraondinary Nuttz
September 30th, 2009
9:17 pm
Daniel
When you complimented my nuttz you said a mouthful!!
niremetal
September 30th, 2009
9:24 pm
Steve, let me add that I still have a lot of aliases that I use to mask my hatred of Woodson. Im really abusive and a butt hole but I would like to be respect did so I do my hate woodson under a alias just like most of the guys here. Then I try and sound competent and respectful as Niremental. Some guy has pickup on this and is using my name as nonmental. Trust me, Im mental.
niremetal
September 30th, 2009
9:25 pm
respected
Ariose
September 30th, 2009
10:07 pm
CHECK OUT HAWKS TRAINING CAME CENTRAL!!!!NEW VIDEO INTERVIEWS WITH JAMAL CRAWFORD AND JEFF TEAGUE!!!!!!
http://www.nba.com/hawks/news/2009_training_camp_central.html
o_0
Ariose
September 30th, 2009
10:08 pm
*camp!!!!
Big Ray
September 30th, 2009
10:11 pm
I don’t blame Joe for exploring his options. What he’s really saying to me is “I know how this game is played, and I’d like a little more money.” That doesn’t mean he wants out. If he did, he’d have asked for a trade or done what he did in Phoenix (asked the front office not to match the contract Atlanta was offering). Okay, how is this something new? Besides, the front office has done this to other players, now it’s their turn to sweat a bit. But I think Sund hedged his bets with Crawford, just a bit. And he was wise to do so.
Still, there are some things said in connection with Joe Johnson that I find to be a repeated theme:
“Joe is the best thing that ever happened to the Hawks”
Okay, I hear that. But does that tell you just how good Joe is, or does it tell you about the decisions made by the organization over the years? Or a bit of both? Would we be still saying that if we had drafted Chris Paul? Or Deron Williams? Or Brandon Roy? Before you rip into this, consider what a guy like Paul did for a WEAKER team in his first 2-3 years before you answer. No, I’m not comparing Joe to these other guys, player to player, in a vaccum. I’m talking about decisions that could have been made, and players that could have been obtained IN ADDITION to Joe. Guys who are considered by many to be either on par with his impact on a team, or even greater…Just sayin’…
“Joe will easily be offered 16-18 million by several other teams.”
How can we be sure of this? We can’t. And while I agree that super franchise guys like Kobe Bryant get 24 million, they got that kind of money BEFORE the economical downturn. There is no absolute guarantee of such a salary now (though still a likelihood for the game’s absolute best), even more so for guys who are a tier below the Kobe and Lebron types. Not only that, but how many teams are willing to shell that kind of money out on an offer sheet unless they are certain that Atlanta won’t match it? Offer sheets are gambles. Serious gambles. Bigger than World Poker Championship gambles. Also, if considering signing Joe away, you have to look at your own team’s talent level, as opposed to that of the Hawks. If a Johnson-led team can’t get past the second round (let’s assume at full health), what’s he gonna do for a less talented team? Oh, and have we forgotten that times are so hard, that the NBA handed out a 10-12 million dollar stimulus package to half the teams last season? Yeah, everybody’s looking to shell out 16-18 million for a guy like Joe. Won’t call that wrong, but I won’t call it right, either.
“Josh and Marvin signed longterm but neither had a better offer than what the Hawks made. Same for Zaza.”
Wrong on one count. The only reported offer on the table for Josh Smith was Billy Knight’s original offer of 5yrs/$45 million. Josh was offered 5yrs/$58 million by the Grizzlies, which the Hawks matched immediately. $58mil > $45mil.
“By not signing tell me he does not want to be here and money is the motivator.”
Okay, but I don’t think the two are mutually inclusive. We can just as easily say that Bibby, Zaza, and Marvin all stayed because they couldn’t get better money elsewhere. Using the same logic, we could conclude that none of the three wanted to be here, and that money was the only motivating factor. Sound fair? Not to me…
“Joe does not deserve an elite/superstar contract because he is not an elite/superstar player.”
How do we know what Joe wants, money-wise? How do we determine an “elite” contract versus an “not quite elite” contract? Two good examples: Gilbert Arenas and Rashard Lewis. Which guy, if either, is an elite superstar? And would you call those elite contracts they get? I wouldn’t quite call 14-17 mil a year a superstar contract, though I will say that it can’t be too far from it. All the same…
Joe says he wants to become an elite player. I’m interested in how he thinks he can achieve that goal. Certainly not by playing more minutes. I figure it has to be an increase in efficiency. This will be interesting.
Big Ray
September 30th, 2009
10:17 pm
Meanwhile, despite all the JJ hubbub, great article by Sekou on Jamal Crawford. The man is drawing raves from his teammates about his passing ability, and apparently….he can play defense.
Well, I’m sure some still don’t want to hear this kind of stuff, but the season will be here, and we’ll all get to see it. More positive and encouraging words from Woody:
“We all look at Jamal as a guy that can score the ball and there’s no doubt, he’s as good as you can get in that respect,” Woodson said. “But he’s a much more dynamic player than that, as is [rookie point guard] Jeff Teague. And the sooner the rest of our guys figure out how they can play off of these guys, the more dangerous we’ll be.”
Say what you want about Woody and how good he sounds this time of year, but this is the truth. One guy who needs to take it to heart is Joe. He should know how to play off of other guys, as that’s what he came from in Phoenix. Bibby won’t have a problem, he never forgot.
Tony
September 30th, 2009
10:39 pm
Let him walk because Josh Smith said he is the NEXT BIG THING.
niremetal
September 30th, 2009
10:42 pm
I suppose imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Too bad that was a pretty weak imitation.
Good points all, Ray. Although honestly? I think Al Horford is more likely to be a starter for a title-winning team during his career than CP3 is. And I’ve given you my reasons why. All things considered, I think I’d rather have Marvin and Horford than CP3 (keep in mind that if we had drafted CP3, we probably would have lost our #1 pick in 2007 entirely because it was only top 3 protected…)
I obviously don’t think that Knight was thinking “boy, let me pass up the draft’s best player twice in a row so I can get a shot at a potential All-Star big man in 2007.” But as it turns out, that’s exactly what happened. It’s just funny how things work out…
Sekou Smith
September 30th, 2009
10:44 pm
I was warned by someone I trust that I’d be taken aback by Crawford’s complete game. And they were right. He’s much more of a complete player than he’s given credit for, mostly because he’s such an accomplished scorer that people tend to overlook the other aspects of his game.
And I hate to keep repeating the same thing in regards to JJ, but why is it okay for a team to decline to sign a player to an extension but not okay for the player to decline an extension offer? That doesn’t compute with me. The motive are always the same when it comes to contracts, the team wants the player at their desired number and the player wants his desired number. They usually meet somewhere inside those extremes. Why there’s more animosity directed at the player that declines an extension than to the team that declines to sign a player to an extension makes no sense to me (are you confused yet? I know I am after writing that.
Ariose
September 30th, 2009
10:50 pm
I agree with Nire. LEAVE MARVIN ALONE RAY!!!
……Unless we’re trading him for Rudy Gay…..anyhoo….
Ariose
September 30th, 2009
11:01 pm
Sekou, So true. Happens all the time. Team goes low, player goes high & they meet in the middle, which is usually whats best for the franchise and the player.
Ariose
September 30th, 2009
11:03 pm
JJ is worth it. Like I said on the last blog, 4 years??? Rick should’ve put a lil’ sumthn’ in JJ’s Gatoraid before he pitched that offer!
Ariose
September 30th, 2009
11:05 pm
If Joe goes BONKERS this season, and the team has a CRAZY year; I’m thinking 6yrs with a player option in there somewhere…
WTF!!!
September 30th, 2009
11:14 pm
WHAT THE HELL, WHY ARE YALL MAD @ JOE CAUSE HE WON’T SIGN , DAMN IF YALL CAN READ AND STOP TRYING TO MAKE IT BIGGER THEN WHAT IT IS, HE CLEARLY SAID HE’S NOT WORRIED ABOUT THAT NOW, WHY??? CAUSE THAT WILL CAUSE SO MUCH ATTENTION ON HIM, HE TOLD YALL HE IS WORRIED ABOUT THE TEAM, AND TAKEN THEM TO THE NEXT LEVEL, THE HAWKS HAD ALL SUMMER TO OFFER HIM , AND NOW WHEN TRAINING CAMP COMES THEY WANT TO DO IT, THATS NOT HOW U HANDLE BUSINESS, ITS PRACTICE TIME, U DO THAT ON UR OWN TIME, AND THATS THE OFF SEASON, AND YALL KEEP COMPARING JOE TO WADE AND JAMES, HE WOULD KILL BOTH OF THEM 1 ON 1, AND U SEE WHAT HE DID TO KOBE LAST YEAR HELD HIM UNDER 15 POINTS, AND CROSSED HIM OVER, I DONT KNOW WHAT GAMES YALL LOOKIN AT, I GUESS CAUSE HE’S NOT ON SPORTCENTER TOP 10 EVERY NIGHT DUNKIN ON PEOPLE OR CAUSE HES NOT ON ANY COMMERCIALS, YALL FORGOT IF IT WASNT FOR HIM THERE WOULDNT BE NO PLAYOFFS, NO MORE THEN 13 GAMES WON, NO GAME 7 AGAINST THE CELTICS, NO SECOND ROUND AGAINST CLEVELAND, HE GAVE WADE THE BUSINESS SHOOTING EVERY WHERE ON HIS ASS EVEN FROM THE WING OF THE BIRD, BUT YALL STILL WANT TO DOG THIS MAN, HE PLAYED THROUGH A SPRAINED ANKLE, AND NEVER COMPLAINED ABOUT NOTHING, NOW THATS A PLAYER WITH HEART, WADE, KOBE, AND JAMES, HAD A SUPPORTING CAST THAT THEY CAN DUMP IT OFF TO ANYTIME THEY WILL MAKE A SHOT, JOE DIDNT, ITS NOT ABOUT HOW MANY POINTS YOU SCORING ITS ABOUT CHAMPIONSHIPS, KOBE HAS ONE CAUSE OF SHAQ, WADE HAS ONE BECAUSE OF SHAQ AND OTHER ALLSTARS ON THE TEAM, LEBRON HES OUT THE PICTURE HE SUCKS EVERYTIME IN THE PLAYOFFS, YALL JUST SOME D!@% RIDERS, DONT KNOW NOTHING BOUT A GAME, AND DONT WATCH I SEE, JUST A BUNCH OF BLOGGERS TRYING TO GET ATTENTION, AND AT THE END OF THE DAY YALL THE ONES UPSET, BLOWING YALL BRAINS OUT, WHILE THEY JUST CHILLIN LAUGHING AT YALL ASS, WHILE THEY GETTIN PAYED AND HITTING THE CLUB AFTER A WIN OR LOSE POPPING BOTTLES ON YALL LAMES, KEEP HATING ON HIM AND WISH HIM AWAY, I PROMISE BASKETBALL WILL NOT BE THE SAME AROUND HERE, IT WILL BE BACK TO 13 GAMES, MAR MY WORD, AND WHOS SAYS JOSH SMITH CAN CARRY THE TEAM, MAN PLEASE, KILL YO SELF, HE CANT DRIBBLE OR SHOOT, NO LOW POST MOVES AT ALL, ALL HE CAN DO IS GIVE U ONE GOOD BLOCK, AND A HIGHLIGHT DUNK, BIBBY CAN SHOOT BUT NO DEFENSE, AL CAN REBOUND BUT NO OFFENSE AND JUST A LIL DEFENSE, BUT KNO LOW POST MOVES, MARVIN TOO CLUMSEY,AND YALL CAN BLAME IT ON THE COACH ALL DAY, HE JUST DONT HAVE THE PLAYERS, BUT JOE THATS WHY HE USED HIM SO MUCH, GET YALL FACTS RIGHT MAN BUT THE HAWKS WILL BE BETTER THEN EVER THIS YEAR, THIS IS THE SUPRISE TEAM, GO HAWKS!!! AND JOE JOHNSON #2 ALOT OF YALL HATE HIM BUT I PROMISE MANY MORE PEOPLE LOVE HIM!!!! REMBER THAT!!
Ariose
September 30th, 2009
11:25 pm
WTF!!, you seem a lil angry bruh o_0. How bout’ you take your own advice and chill. Pop a couple bottles and DROWN YO SELF FOO!!!
Big Ray
September 30th, 2009
11:28 pm
Nire ,
That wasn’t my point at all, you know it, and I’m not taking the bait.
Ariose ,
You know I’m not a Marvin basher. Or you should.
Big Ray
September 30th, 2009
11:30 pm
Ariose ,
Did you get my e-mail?
niremetal
September 30th, 2009
11:43 pm
Damn Ray, you’re no fun
Ariose
September 30th, 2009
11:43 pm
Ray, thanks for the heads up lol. It’s been a few days since i’ve checked it heh…..and you know i was jus playin’ about Marv…..not the Rudy part though
niremetal
October 1st, 2009
12:07 am
Ariose,
Eh…I’m not so impressed by a guy who is the second best young player on a team that has lost 60, 60, and 58 games. He bears an eerie resemblance to Glenn Robinson – he puts up virtually no numbers in any category but PPG, and puts forth next-to-no effort on defense. Then again, I should probably stop expecting swingmen to play defense…it’s increasingly rare to say that from a perimeter player these days. We haven’t seen a young Artest/Tayshaun/Battier/Raja come up in awhile. Granger and Gay don’t commit themselves to defense, and Thornton is little better. I used to like Iguodala, but he’s slacked off a bit ever since he became “the man” in Philly.
Perimeter defense is a dying art…
niremetal
October 1st, 2009
12:08 am
Oh, and Kirilenko belongs in that category of “swingmen who play D” as well.
Big Ray
October 1st, 2009
12:13 am
Nire ,
I take that back.
I will take the bait. But not the proffered bit.
You’ve made your argument for (or rather, against) CP3, and it’s a solid one. But I find it amusing that you ALWAYS stop with him, and leave Deron and Roy alone…
Deron is the kind of pg that other players want to play with. More importantly, he’s the kind of pg that BIG MEN want to play with. Ask Carlos Boozer. Draft him, and you don’t need Joe to run the offense. Joe can score 25 a game playing off the ball. And I say once again, what big man doesn’t want to play with a pg like Deron? Sure, we likely wouldn’t have gotten the chance to draft Horford, as we wouldn’t likely have retained a top 3 protected pick. The fact that we did was pure, unadulterated luck and nothing else, as it is. But a better team attracts better free agents, does it not? Not always, but more often. Nothing against Al Horford (love the guy), but surely it’s not any more conjectural to assume that we could have attracted a decent big man free agent, and therefore not needed to draft Horford. I mean, we HAD to draft Horford. We needed someone better to play center than what we had.
Similarly, you ignore Brandon Roy. Draft HIM, and you get him IN ADDITION to Marvin and Joe. Okay, so you don’t get Horford. But you have more options, and we’re still a better team than the year before. And Joe doesn’t have all the pressure on him. Either way, asset management comes into play here. Feel like JJ wants too much money, or is injury prone? Fine. You have Brandon Roy, you ain’t gotta have JJ. You can trade him. Or..you can trade Roy. Either way, you can use one to obtain a decent big man, even if you have to do it via a package deal. Tell me, what is Roy’s worth, and what was/is Sheldon’s trade value?
This isn’t about which guy is most likely to be a starter on a championship team, an argument that’s so broad, I don’t think it has much merit, as players can CHANGE TEAMS. A few years back, you could have labeled Pau Gasol as you do CP3. But not now, eh? How about Trevor Ariza? You could have labeled him as such when he was with Orlando. Not now…
Big Ray
October 1st, 2009
12:19 am
It’s funny how that perimeter defense thing works. Kobe had the potential all along, but it took some Jedi mind tricks by Phil Jackson to convince him that the way to win was for him to play better “D”. Sure enough, he proved it in the Olympics, and in that championship run.
Thing is, I understand why guys who have to be “the man” concern themselves more with offense than they do defense. I don’t like it, but I understand it. Yet, Kobe had no excuse, particularly once Gasol came along. When you’re out there with Gasol and Odom, you can’t use the excuse of “I’m saving myself for offense.”
Ariose ,
No problem. Hit me back on the e-mail when you can. And I feel you on Rudy Gay. I like his game, and there’s no substitute for a 20ppg scorer. But fit is everything. Does he fit here better than Marvin? Always been my question. I think he’d have a harder time fitting than Jamal Crawford, who many think will be a problem.
Big Ray
October 1st, 2009
12:27 am
Nire ,
Awwwww, come on now. Glenn Robinson’s career numbers: 20.7 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 2.7 apg, and 1.2 spg.
Now you KNOW that if we were getting THESE kinds of numbers out of Marvin, REGARDLESS of how his defense was, three things would happen:
1)You’d be singing “I told you so” loud enough to wake the dead in Arlington Cemetary (God bless their souls).
2) Rod would get committed to a facility for attempted suicide (kidding Rod..I think
).
3)Billy Knight would still have a job.
But I know, I know. Robinson never was a starter on a championship squad…;)
niremetal
October 1st, 2009
12:33 am
Ray,
As for CP3 and winning, you know my theory – when a PG is your best scorer, you don’t win titles. Not in the modern NBA. I admit it’s just a theory, but with the way defense is played these days, you can’t afford to focus your whole offense on one player.
My broader point is that it’s much, much, much harder to find strong, quick big men with lots of heart like Horford than it is to find talented swingmen (like Roy) or even talented PGs (like CP3 or Deron). And more to the point, every title winning team from the past 30 years has had an imposing defensive presence in the middle (be it a giant like Hakeem/Kareem/Shaq, or a Ben Wallace/Horace Grant/Dennis Rodman shorter-but-tough-as-nails PF/C type). I think Horford is very, very close to being that kind of player. And honestly? There are very, very few players I can think of that I would trade Horford for – and stars though they may be, I would have to think long and hard about trading him even for a CP3 or Deron or Roy.
Yeah, getting Horford was mostly luck. But it wasn’t entirely luck. Our odds of “winning” the lottery were proportionate to how bad our record was in 06-07. Give us CP3 or Deron or Roy, and I think we’re at worst in the bottom of the lottery or (more likely since this is the East) in the playoffs. Either way, we don’t get the ping pong ball that went to the 4th worst team in the league, which is what netted us the #3 pick and Horford.
I never said it was by design – quite the contrary, I explicitly said that it was NOT by design. But the players you get in the NBA and whether they pan out is always based largely on luck. And we might have used up all our luck had we gotten CP3 or Deron or Roy, and we’d be desperately scouring now for a way to get a guy like Horford – through “luck” or otherwise.
Big Ray
October 1st, 2009
12:35 am
Hee hee…similarly, if Marvin was putting up Gay’s numbers for the last two years, I seriously doubt we’d be calling him a Glenn Robinson clone.
niremetal
October 1st, 2009
12:40 am
Big Ray,
You gotta be kidding me. You know me better than that. I put about as much stock into a player’s box score stats as I do into astrology (read: none). That’s why my favorite guys in the NBA are the Shane Battiers and Bruce Bowens who help their teams win in ways that NEVER show up in stats. And why I was pushing for Woody to play Mario more this past year despite the fact that he’d never create a blip in the box score.
If Marvin were putting up those numbers without playing good D, I absolutely would not be singing his praises or saying “I told you so.” Remember that back in the day, I never defended Marvin as a player; I only defended Knight’s decision to draft him (you remember all my “hindsight is 20/20″ arguments – which most certainly were NOT complementary to Marvin as a player).
The reason I finally got off the fence about Marvin as a player was because he started playing good D. Take that away, and I would not be counting myself among the people who were pushing for Sund to re-sign Marvin to a long-term deal.
And with that, I sign off for the night…
Ariose
October 1st, 2009
12:45 am
Ray, I just hit you up.
Ray & Nire, I love Rudy(My favorite young player in the leauge right now…outside of Teague of course) But That just an ongoing joke with me. Te reality is, Marvin locks Rudy up EVERTYIME we play memphis. I think Rudy had 11pts the last time he drew Marv as a defender…and Marvin is my boy they guy is a Foul magnet, and I love his stroke(I shoot just like him….strong midrange, OK 3pt…..if only his handle was as nice is mine….oh well). That 31 he droped on Melo is still fresh in my head(Melo fired him up with all that trash talk….SBD Marv didn’t say a word either).
Honestly, I wouldnt trade Marv for Rudy right now……but he IS slated to be a RFA this summer…anyhoo. But I will say that Rudy’s Gonna be on my 2K10 roster!! I always put my favorite player on the roster(wht happend to you vince?), without subtracting anyone either lol.
Big Ray
October 1st, 2009
12:49 am
Nire! ,
Why do you keep talking about trading Horford for those guys?? Come one man, we’re talking about draft here, not trading KNOWN products.
“As for CP3 and winning, you know my theory – when a PG is your best scorer, you don’t win titles. Not in the modern NBA. I admit it’s just a theory, but with the way defense is played these days, you can’t afford to focus your whole offense on one player.”
You know I’m with you on that, but that argument is based on team structure, not the player.
CP3 is the best scorer on his team because he MUST be. Who, since his entry to the NBA, have the Hornets had that could have been a better scorer? Conversely, Deron Williams plays on a team that currently has a guy who can bear a bigger or at least equal share of the scoring burden, in Boozer. CP3 has NEVER had that luxury. David West was his best bet, and as good as West is, he’s not that good. Stojakovich’s game fell off, so there went another option. CP3 leads that team the way he does because he MUST.
I mean, we’re not talking about a guy who is a selfish ballhog. The guy averages 10 assists a game. You think Joe has to do everything? Look at the Hawks, then look at the Hornets. Tell me Paul hasn’t had to do EVERYTHING. Is it not possible that if you put him on a different team….maybe he doesn’t have to be the top scorer? Or are you saying he will demand to be that kind of player? I don’t think he would, but that’s just my opinion. The guy is a competitor. And here’s what I think: eventually, he will want to win bad enough. And if New Orleans doesn’t put him and that team in a better position to do that, he’s gone. Money talks. But it doesn’t say everything.
“But the players you get in the NBA and whether they pan out is always based largely on luck.”
I agree, and I don’t agree. I hope you mean just by way of draft. But if you do, then you could also use that line of thinking to conclude that all of the GMs in the league are of equal skill, since it’s based largely on luck. Maybe that’s splitting hairs, but it’s not hard to do based on that statement. But if you don’t limit that statement to the draft alone, then you’ve opened up the flood gates. Here’s an example: the Lakers have won a few titles in the last decade.
It must have been mostly luck that brought Shaq, Kobe, and Gasol to L.A., three guys who helped them win rings. Because..uh…L.A. didn’t draft a single one of those guys.
Big Ray
October 1st, 2009
12:50 am
Ariose ,
Got your message. I returned it within a couple of minutes, so check that one too. Yeah, yeah, I know…I’m giving you a workout, LOL!
Big Ray
October 1st, 2009
12:58 am
Yeah, okay Nire .
In all of your arguments defending Billy’s decision to draft him, you talked about all the experts’ statements and draft positioning, all based on Marvin’s potential to be what? A superstar. Not once did I read or hear a single thing about his potential to be a “defensive stopper”. Not a single peep about him being anything like Battier or Bowen. Not from you. Not from the experts. So what were you basing your defense of Knight’s draft choice on then? You said it yourself (and I say it again): superstardome.
Marvin’s defense didn’t come into the equation until a need to validate his existence in the starting lineup and his role with the team, once he came under fire for not turning into the…superstar…that he was expected to be, based on his draft position. Yep.
And you know what? there’s nothing wrong with that!
WTF!!!
October 1st, 2009
1:31 am
Ariose
September 30th, 2009
11:25 pm
WTF!!, you seem a lil angry bruh o_0. How bout’ you take your own advice and chill. Pop a couple bottles and DROWN YO SELF FOO!!!
NOW LOOK WHOS IN THERE FEELINGS, U MUST DONT GET KNO A** U TO BUSY JACKIN OFF ON THIS BLOG SITE, U MIGHT BE A DOWN LOW BROTHER JUST LIKE THE REST OF THESE A.T.GAYLIENS, JOE WILL GET MONEY AND YO BROKE A** WILL BE STILL BLOGGING TO YOUR BOYFRIEND A** FACE!!! BEND OVA!!!
Tagurit
October 1st, 2009
5:41 am
ETOP 2008-09 NBA SALARIES
Highest paid NBA players:
1) Kevin Garnett (Boston) $24,751,934
2)tie Jason Kidd (Dallas) $21,372,000
2)tie Jermaine O’Neal (Toronto) $21,372,000
4) Kobe Bryant (LA Lakers) $21,262,500
5) Shaquille O’Neal (Phoenix) $21,000,000
6)tie Allen Iverson (Detroit) $20,840,625
6)tie. Stephon Marbury (New York) $20,840,625
Tim Duncan (San Antonio) $20,598,704
9) Tracy McGrady (Houston) $20,370,437
10) Ray Allen (Boston) $18,388,430
11) Dirk Nowitzki (Dallas) $18,077,904
12) Paul Pierce (Boston) $18,077,903
13) Shawn Marion (Miami) $17,810,000
14) Rashard Lewis (Orlando) $16,447,871
15) Michael Redd (Milwaukee) $15,780,000
16)tie Pau Gasol (LA Lakers) $15,106,000
16)tie. Andrei Kirilenko (Utah) $15,106,000
18)tie. Amare Stoudemire (Pho.) $15,070,550
18)tie Yao Ming (Houston) $15,070,550
20) Mike Bibby (Atlanta) $14,983,603
ONCE MORE TRUTH SERUM IS FACED WITH THE REAL TRUTH AND LOOKS LIKE A COMPLETE MORON, STICKING BOTH FEET IN HIS MOUTH AND FORCED TO HOP AROUND ON HIS BUTT FOR TRANSPORTATION. SINCE HIS BUTT IS NOW THE METHOD OF TRANSPORTATION, HIS EXCRETORY SYSTEM NO LONGER WORKS PROPERLY, THIS EXPLAINS WHY HE IS FULL OF SH!T. :0