That time of year
It's that time of year again for the Mike Woodson and his Hawks. Training camp is just weeks away and the coach and his team are in the crosshairs.
HAWKSVILLE - For those of us pro basketball loyalists, we always know when it’s time to readjust the schedule to get ready for the NBA season.
Labor Day is my reminder.
I know that in the days immediately following the holiday players will start trickling back into town and showing up for voluntary workouts (go ahead and get your jokes about my Wolverines out of the way now so we can move on to basketball matters) on the track and at the Hawks’ practice facility.
It’s as much as a part of my late summer/fall routine as watching football on the weekend. So I’ll be making my way downtown all week to see who shows up and what kind of work they’re doing in anticipation of the start of training camp, which believe it or not is just roughly three weeks away.
The prognosticators already have an idea of what things will look like once the season starts and how the Hawks will do, for example, our friends at HoopsHype have the Hawks pegged for a return to the fourth spot in the Eastern Conference standings.
I prefer to wait until I actually see someone on the move before offering up any sort of hypothesis about where this team might be headed. So while I was standing over my grill Sunday afternoon, basking in the glory of a decisive win for my team Saturday and enjoying the neighborly ambiance of the world’s greatest bedroom community (neighbors bring over steaming hot crawfish pies and ice cold Arnold Palmers when they see the first sign of grill smoke in Smyrna), the conversation turned to the Hawks.
Specifically, the Ridge Road crew wanted to know who has to have the biggest year for the Hawks to continue their climb up the conference ladder and back into the playoffs and perhaps beyond the second round?
It’s a question, I explained, best answered by those of us that spend far too much time worrying ourselves with these things on a daily basis (if you’re reading this, you know who you are). So before I ask for your take, please allow me to offer my five-point answer:
MIKE WOODSON - the Hawks’ sixth-year head coach has weathered every storm that’s come his way thus far, which is a testament to not only his team’s continual improvement but also his ability to compartmentalize during tough times and rally his troops. But this season will provide perhaps the harshest spotlight he’s faced during his tenure. In each of his five previous seasons few people – fans, pundits or anyone else outside of the city of Atlanta – viewed his team as a playoff player. All that has changed in the past 16 months. Woodson’s entering the final year of his deal, which always adds a little extra drama to the situation, with oversized expectations. The roster is 11-deep with proven NBA players (Randolph Morris is still waiting on the chance to prove himself), the deepest the Hawks have been since Woodson arrived. The bottom line, this team goes where Woodson leads them.
JOE JOHNSON - In the same situation as his coach, in terms of heading into the final year of his deal (until further notice, of course), the Hawks’ captain and All-Star faces an interesting dilemma this season. As his younger teammates have matured and the veteran cast been upgraded, Johnson will have to decide how much of the burden he is willing and able to shoulder this season. Physically, the extended minutes have taken a toll the past two seasons, when his playoff performances weren’t consistently up to his own lofty standards. Crazy as this might sound; if his numbers decreased across the board (especially his minutes) I could see him having a better season than any of his first four with the Hawks.
JAMAL CRAWFORD - Anytime you fleece a team the way the Hawks did when they snatched Crawford from the Golden State Warriors for Acie Law IV and Speedy Claxton, folks expect big things. And Crawford has to deliver, whatever his role ends up being. If he “leads the league in scoring off the bench” as one Hawks’ staffer joked to me in the hours after the deal went down, we’d have some story. But if he just maintains his nearly 20-point scoring average this season he’ll make that deal worth it. Any concerns about Crawford’s fit on this team have been assuaged by multiple in-house sources this summer that insist Crawford developed an instant chemistry with everyone within the organization that’s dealt with him. If the on-court chemistry comes as easily, this could wind up being one of the Hawks’ best personnel moves in years. If not …
RICK SUND - You’ll be hard pressed to find anyone that isn’t convinced that the Hawks’ GM has done a masterful job in his first 13 months on the job. He’s made all the right moves and steadied the organization through one of their best seasons in years. But the toughest challenge comes this season. Sund will have to gauge the Hawks’ progress by the February trade deadline and decide if this team, as presently constituted, provides the best chance for long-term success or not. If not, he’ll have to pull the trigger on the right deal to push the Hawks over top (sort of like his predecessor did two years ago when Billy Knight pulled the trigger on the Mike Bibby deal). Gone are the days when the Hawks’ GM could simply suspend the franchise in rebuilding mode or just maintain. The next step is moving upward and onward, and that almost always requires a deft personnel move one way or another.
JEFF TEAGUE/JOE SMITH/JASON COLLINS - These three guys represent everything the Hawks have needed in the form of depth at their two most crucial positions the past five years. Just a rookie, Teague’s ability to adapt to the NBA game and assume a position backing up Bibby is crucial. If his assimilation comes off without a hitch, and we honestly have no way of knowing how it will go, the need for that third point guard won’t be nearly as urgent as it might be otherwise. Smith and Collins are known commodities in the NBA. You get a versatile scorer and defender in Smith, a veteran frontcourt performer that’s always played much bigger than his listed size. In Collins, the Hawks have a 7-footer capable of lending quality minutes in a situational role, particularly on the defensive end. They have to be the support system, along with Zaza Pachulia, that Josh Smith and Al Horford have had to work without the past two years.
You know what I think.
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532 comments Add your comment
Sekou Smith
September 9th, 2009
4:21 pm
Look for more stuff on what I’ve seen this week in Friday’s and Sunday’s papers, as well as on ajc.com. Interesting stuff going on at the practice court this week. The crowds are expected to get bigger next week.
Teague has been impressive (as have all the Hawks’ returnees). But everyone’s watching the young fella to see what he can do. His older teammates are getting their first real glimpse of his game and they all seem to be impressed.
Again, more on that in the next couple of days.
truth-serum
September 9th, 2009
4:23 pm
I only sent you one link. Youve now posted 4 different links, none of which is the ne I sent you.
You my friend are a winner.Thats my story and Im sticking to it.
Big Ray
September 9th, 2009
4:28 pm
Vava74,
You’ll have to forgive me, if you please. I’m quick to come to Smith’s defense in some issues (gee, that’s not a surprise, is it?)
I recognize what you said, and you’re correct about a lot of things. I have no problem conceding those points, either. My view is an “if, then” view. I hope that Josh improves in his weakest areas. But IF he does not, THEN I hope Sund works out a good deal that sends him on his way, and gets us something good and worthwhile in return. Agreed?
Daniel ,
We may not always agree, but at least we can be civil.
Big Ray
September 9th, 2009
4:32 pm
Rod,
Don’t tell me you’ve gotten on the “Bubba crew” bandwagon. Please tell me you’re better than that. We don’t completely agree on Marvin (I think he only falls down 55% of the game, not 60%
), but it ain’t gotta be like that.
Sautee
September 9th, 2009
4:35 pm
truth-serum,
“I only sent you one link. You’ve now posted 4 different links, none of which is the ne I sent you.”
Can you say cut and paste?
That’s all I did with your undisputed champ post. The one I just cut and pasted at 4:14. You’re original post was at 1:21.
Are you now saying that was not you?
Big Ray
September 9th, 2009
4:38 pm
Joe Mama ,
Alright, I’ll try to look past the moniker and just conversate.
Vick will be fine. He’s a superior athlete and a professional. I don’t think he will take McNabb’s job, as McNabb throws better (but doesn’t run as well). I am really curious to see what Andy Reid has in mind for Vick. The reason I say this is because Vick is not a guy you simply stick at backup quarterback. He has so much speed and so much ability. But there’s no way they were going to reveal anything during the preseason. So, there should be some cool surprises then the Eagles take the field. I’m a Falcon fan, not an Eagle fan, but I’ll be watching to see what they do with Vick. As long as he can avoid injury, he’s going to do something when he’s on the field.
truth-serum
September 9th, 2009
4:39 pm
As offical detective investigating the alledge bubba association I have determined that this man, rod from college park is not a part of the southern chapter of the grand dragons of the knights of the loyal hate association.
His above mentioned statement has fully exonerated him from all such charges.
niremetal, Im honored that you have mentioned me in such fine company as
Just checking in
Bob Wiess (isn’t it supposed to be Weiss?)
undisputed champ
joe mama
I guess they are the antithesis of the grandnights of the bubba posse. Id like to further add that you are absolutely right. They have no right to use the same or similar syntax. It proves they are worthy to be in the presence of such a fine example as yourself. I think we should hang all of them right next to where the posse is going to hang woodson. That way we can set an example for those who defy the southern chapter of the Bubba posse.
KevinA
September 9th, 2009
4:41 pm
Yes Sund did a great job getting a player for two players that had no future of playing time for the Hawks. We also traded for Glenn (BIG DOG) Davis a few years ago who had a better carreer than Crawford. We dumped him and his salary because he couldn’t play defense. In twenty days we could do the same thing.
If Crawford was the starter and was going to play 35 minutes I might think different. JJ is the starter. No way JJ will play less than 35 min. Bibby is the starter. No way he will play less than 30 min. If Teague plays well and we want to develope him I would think he will get at least 10 – 15. That leaves Crawford with 20.
If I am Sund and and I need to sign JJ and Al with a shrinking cap where would I look first. Hmmmmmmm Then I look at Flip who I may get for 2 mil. and did a great job. Do I want to pay 9 mil for 20 min. or 2 mil.
Can I get 6 min out of West? Maybe 32 out of Bibby? Maybe JJ will demand 38 min?
Now we only need to fill in 12 minutes a game. Wanna pay 9 mil for 12 min.?
joe mama
September 9th, 2009
4:42 pm
Ray, I think philly made a brilliant move. I dont think they will keep Michael in the long run. Mikes too talented. This is a training camp for him and believe me at the 1.5 million you wont find a better deal buy mid to late season hell be on his way to starting for some team.
Big Ray
September 9th, 2009
4:42 pm
Daniel,
The comparison is not Flip at 1.5 to Crawford at 9. You HAVE to factor in the salaries of Acie and Craig also!!!!
You actually kept roughly the same team salary, got a better player and opened up two roster spots for other veterans, Smith and Collins, and we did NOT add overall salary with the Crawford trade.
Why is this so hard for you to understand?
It’s a lost cause for some people.
joe mama
September 9th, 2009
4:45 pm
By mid to late season
joe mama
September 9th, 2009
4:47 pm
Big Ray in a year from now the contracts of law and craig we be expired but Crawford just signed so theres more than one angle to the point.
Ariose
September 9th, 2009
4:48 pm
Guys, I’m not defeding ANYONE. Not even Flip, I’m just saying that if you look at the “contenders” the have redundancy all over their rosters and they don’t givs a flying flip about it. Why? Because they wanna win a title. That’s the only point I was trying to make. We are not there yet. Were not a sure thing, and if you can’t see that Woodson has in part contributed to that with his poor management of player-minutes then you need to take off your rose-colored glasses. I’m not just talking about the end-of-the-bench scrubes either. JJ & Bibby to be precise play way too many minutes when it’s clear to everyone in attendance that they don’t have the goods that particular night and NEED TO SIT THIER AZZES ON THE PINE…We lost more than a few games because of Woodson riding them into the ground when the just dont have it. This has to stop THIS SEASON or we need a NEW COACH(obviously thats assuming our bench is up to the task…)
I can even go so far as to say that Flip deserved even MORE minutes than he got because of either Bibby’s bad defense or his cold shooting on any give night, but NOOOO woodson won’t have any of that.
joe mama
September 9th, 2009
4:48 pm
will be
Astro Joe
September 9th, 2009
4:49 pm
I think that we’re ALL guilty of sometimes losing focus on the truth because of our biases. And I will leave it at that… even if some don’t nod their head’s in self-confessing agreement.
Ariose
September 9th, 2009
4:51 pm
My earlier post today had nothing to do with Flip Vs. Crawford so if you were referring to me, then go back and read my comments over. You misunderstood me. This whole summer i’ve been saying Flip+Crawford….I can’t be any clearer than that.
Astro Joe
September 9th, 2009
4:52 pm
Sekou, I know that it isn’t fair but I think it is real. Any discussion about how Teague looks as a rookie needs to be compared to Acie’s “rookie review”. Again, not fair, but the reality is that Acie is the standard for Teague… much like Horford is the standard for any 6′10″ player that we may draft in the next 2-3 years. So while hearing that Teague is flashing some good things, I’ll be interested in hearing if those things appear better than what Acie flashed as a rookie.
joe mama
September 9th, 2009
4:53 pm
That make sense to me ariose. We need a coach who can manage minutes…as in the minutes of a meeting…as in the minutes of the local klavern meetings that you attend. “Why dont you manage DEEZ NUTZ!
Rod from College Park
September 9th, 2009
4:55 pm
truth-seum,
Thanks! I would hate to be associated with such an organization. Soon they will say we are the same person also. LOL
Big Ray,
If it looks like a duck, and sounds like a duck, it might just be a duck. Just saying….. Just because you all (BUBBA CREW, LUNCHROOM BUDDIES……..) take the same stance, with the same obsurd statements
about my arguements does not mean that you are all the same person. I would give some of you the benefit of the doubt if the other person you say I am, was me, but obviously you (BUBBA CREW, LUNCHROOM BUDDIES……..), are making assumptions based on the syntax of the post, so therefore I must take the appropriate stance. BUBBA CREW it is.
Big Ray
September 9th, 2009
4:59 pm
truth-serum (undisputed champ),
I’ll put it plainly. You are a liar. I’m sick of this badly misguided, racially charged crap. Nobody here has the issues that you have. We’ve all argued about many things on this blog over the years. But we don’t sink to the level of false accusations (translation: LIES) that you do. None of us brought that poison here but YOU.
I’m not responsible for your use of several monikers any more than I am for your birth (thank God). Get over yourself, and get over your hate. Lucky for you virtual forums like this exist so that you can spew your bile without reaping the consequences of offending the general public. I’ll bet you’ve never walked up to a group of people and openly accused them of being members of the KKK, let alone a group of black men. I’ll pray that you never do, because even a lunatic doesn’t deserve the kind of beating you’re likely to get in some places, although most would probably just say that you’re form the loony bin and let you go your way.
On to the game of facts and stats. You’re quite the dodgeballer, aren’t you? After getting beaten down with stats the first time, you come back and say that all my stuff is unfounded. Well, I “found it” on NBA.com. Never ask somebody to research something, then get all twisted when they do, and prove you wrong. You now say you judge a person on what they did last year. “That’s where we’re at” is what you say. Well, here’s a couple tidbits for LAST YEAR: Flip got about 12 points per game, and Jamal got about 20. Collins got 1.8 ppg and 2.3 rpg. Zaza got 6.2ppg and 5.7rpg.
There you have it: last year’s stats. And don’t do the predictable thing and say it’s all about minutes. You wanted to talk LAST YEAR. I gave you stats for LAST YEAR.
As for the “hate Woody campaign”, I’m sick of your damn lies. I don’t hate Woody. I criticize him. I also criticize various players. So do you. So do others. Criticizing is not the same as hating. And conveniently, you choose to ignore all the times I’ve said I expect Woody to do fine and get his extension next year (if not sooner). THAT you ignore, despite the number of times I’ve posted it.
Take your lies, take your deeply rooted racial issues, your hate, your boundless hypocrisy, and your numerous monikers, and go shove it somewhere else. It’s not needed here, and you’re the only one who seems to have that problem here. You brought it. You can leave with it.
Big Ray
September 9th, 2009
5:03 pm
Astro Joe,
Good point. You can’t see it, but I’m nodding my head…;)
Rod,
All I can say is I’m disappointed. As to syntax and all that, I’m not sure what you’re talking about, as I was not talking about that, just our disagreements on Marvin. We’ve also agreed on Marvin (and Josh) in the past. I guess that doesn’t count for much. Oh well. Besides, this is virtual world, and not a sports bar. You can call me what you please….from way over there…
Big Ray
September 9th, 2009
5:10 pm
Joe Mama,
You really think MV7 will be traded? It has its possibilities. Before that happens though, he has to prove that he has “it” still. It’s not that I doubt him, but I’m not the owner or GM for any team, so it’s not me spendng the money. And the only way to prove things is to play. Still, you’re right. For the money, MV7 is a hell of a bargain. Which makes me think that any trade would be lopsided, and NOT in Philly’s favor. But I could be wrong.
As for Law’s and Claxton’s contracts expiring, I hear you. But there’s another angle to be considered as well. If they simply expire, sure you have the money. But you also are left with two empty roster spots and no tradeable asset. Crawford is an asset that is both useable on-court, and tradeable. It was reported that Sund tried to move those two for Chris Kaman last year, but it got nixed. Probably because it would have meant even more money on the payroll, and the owners didn’t want that. Why? My guess is because with Bibby making $15 million last year, payroll would have increased even higher than the $67-$68 million that it already was, and we still may not have been any better than a 4th seed.
But that’s just my guess. I keep hearing that if we hadn’t traded for Crawford and re-signed Pachulia, we would or could have a starting caliber center already. And I’ve still yet to hear who this starting caliber center is, and how exactly we were going to get him.
Undisputed champ!
September 9th, 2009
5:12 pm
Ray…Ray..simmer down. I hope you are having a nice day. Hows the weather? are you getting out much? I hope things are fine with you.
I appreciate your interpertation of whose facts are correct and I appreciate your opinions, although I dont always agree with them. I dont recall mentioning KKK or the black race or the white race. Perhaps you are a little warm. It is summer.Liar is such a strong word for a calm and collected individual. I wish I could buy you a coke but knowing you, you dont drink cokes because your sunday school wont let you. Well listen. if it makes you feel any better Woodson will probably get a contract extention before the year is out. I hope that makes you feel better.
Best wishes
Big Ray
September 9th, 2009
5:14 pm
As offical detective investigating the alledge bubba association I have determined that this man, rod from college park is not a part of the southern chapter of the grand dragons of the knights of the loyal hate association.
His above mentioned statement has fully exonerated him from all such charges.
niremetal, Im honored that you have mentioned me in such fine company as
Just checking in
Bob Wiess (isn’t it supposed to be Weiss?)
undisputed champ
joe mama
I guess they are the antithesis of the grandnights of the bubba posse. Id like to further add that you are absolutely right. They have no right to use the same or similar syntax. It proves they are worthy to be in the presence of such a fine example as yourself. I think we should hang all of them right next to where the posse is going to hang woodson. That way we can set an example for those who defy the southern chapter of the Bubba posse.
See? Only one person is talking about hangings and stuff like that. ONE PERSON. Many names, but just one person. Only this one is this filled with hatred.
It’s really sad. Reminds me of that kid that shot and killed all those people up at Virginia Tech a while back. Even sounds like him. So sad to be that filled with hate.
KevinA
September 9th, 2009
5:16 pm
Ariose
September 9th, 2009
4:48 pm
Guys, I’m not defeding ANYONE. Not even Flip, I’m just saying that if you look at the “contenders” the have redundancy all over their rosters and they don’t givs a flying flip about it. Why? Because they wanna win a title.
What ever happened to having a squad that has to compete for time on the floor. If Crawford plays so well that Woody has to sit JJ or Bibby so much the better. Flip should have the chance at a starting spot if he plays well enough. I wish we would have went into the lux tax and signed David Lee to compete with Marvin. Sessions at 4 million would have been a great pick up. Every time Josh argues a call I hope Woody gives Joe Smith the next 5 minutes. Every time JJ takes a play off defensively I hope Crawford gets the next 5 minutes. If Crawford/Bibby/JJ/ Flip shoot without looking to the front court first should grab some pine. To bad about Chills, we didn’t have those problems with him.
Big Ray
September 9th, 2009
5:21 pm
I wish I could buy you a coke but knowing you, you dont drink cokes because your sunday school wont let you.
As long as it’s not opened already. I can only imagine what you’d put in it.
if it makes you feel any better Woodson will probably get a contract extention before the year is out. I hope that makes you feel better.
If the team gets off to a good start, I full expect it. It would be well-deserved.
Undisputed champ!
September 9th, 2009
5:24 pm
Ray, I hope you feel better. Why dont you sit down and have a glass of water. listen I happen to agree with this statement from kevinA: Talent for dollar, Flip is the man, even if it can’t or won’t happen.
It’s all about the money in a down market with a shrinking cap. What is so hard to understand.
The difference in the numbers between flip and crawford + ZAZA and collins dont equal the difference in the pay. I hope that did not work you up to bad.
Big Ray
September 9th, 2009
5:30 pm
KevinA,
You’re killin’ me! As big of a Josh fan as I am, that was hilarious. I agree though, put Joe Smith in the game if Josh gets to whining so much. Either he will learn quickly or he will get himself traded. However, I don’t know that replacing JJ with Jamal because he took a play off defensively is actually going to help the defense. In fact, I’d say it definitely won’t , but I get your point. Also, I agree on David Lee. He would be a pleasure to have, although somebody’s minutes would definitely get crunched. You can’t give a hustler like Lee too many minutes.
And as Samuel has suggested, I’d take Ronny Turiaf even quicker (mostly for money reasons, as well as playing time reasons).
joe mama
September 9th, 2009
5:33 pm
OK,Ray. That makes sense if you look at it that way. Thanks for the insight too. Theres a lot that goes on that the fans are away of. Thanks for putting me up on that.
Big Ray
September 9th, 2009
5:33 pm
Astro Joe,
Thanks for the reminder. On that note, I’m gonna leave the lunacy alone now.
Undisputed Champ!
September 9th, 2009
5:35 pm
Now that youve calm the …. down you should apologize for false accusations and for being tempermental.
KevinA
September 9th, 2009
5:36 pm
Hollingers Report
Collins’s miniscule production has been well-documented, but it really is amazing. He had the league’s worst PER for a second straight season (see chart), and of the league’s 65 centers he was the worst in four separate categories: TS%, defensive rebound rate, rebound rate, and PER. He was also nearly the worst in turnover ratio, offensive rebound rate and shooting percentage, and it’s not like it was an outlier of a year — that’s pretty consistent with how he’s played the past few years.
Undisputed champ!
Does that give you a clue? He was a Sund mistake.
The Truth
September 9th, 2009
5:56 pm
It would seem that the FBI should issue a warrant for SUND arrest on charges of GRAND THEFT:
Here is related quote from hoopinion.com:
“Warriors coach Don Nelson made no secret of the fact that Crawford wasn’t in his future plans. By shedding Crawford’s longer contract and by virtue of insurance payments that will cover some of the costs of Claxton, Golden State would secure a decent measure of payroll relief with the trade.”
For Nellie, the main interest for trading away a prolific scorer like Crawford for Speedy and Acie was cap relief. But, perhaps the driving motivation that put the deal over the top came after Sund sales job on Nellie about Speedy insurance contract. The idea that Nellie would in addition to expire both players’ contracts but also recover 80% of Speedy 5.2M annual salary paid for by his Insurance Co. was too irresistible for him to pass up. But apparently Nellie must have miscalculated the terms of Speedy’s insurance contract and his desire to continue his basketball career. According to this article, Speedy, surprisingly and publicly declared himself to be healthy and ready to play which will automatically void his insurance contract payments. So that 4.16M cannot be recouped by the Warriors after all. Poor Nellie, while you were salivating about the concept of the deal, you apparently forgot to do your do-diligent and require Speedy to take a physical to validate his condition prior to doing the deal. Maybe Speedy was playing chicken last year and was physically able to play. He just said these words: “I Can Play” and the Warriors have to eat his full salary.
Nice job Sund, you just earned the THE SMOOTH OPERATOR OF THE YEAR AWARD BY THE TRUTH.
Doug
September 9th, 2009
5:59 pm
Ariose: We have been over this…repeatedly…the Hawks are not going to sign Flip…should not sign Flip…why??? Because they have 4 guards that they are extremly satisfied with and Flip is simply not necessary. Why don’t the Lakers sign him??? If/when he signs it will be to be a 3rd/4th guard for someone. What is hard to understand about the FACT that Crawford is way better…therefore will get the minutes Flip got…Teague will get backup point minutes and will be better IN THAT ROLE than Flip…viola no minutes left…
Sautee
September 9th, 2009
6:19 pm
Wait, Flip plays viola?
Who knew?
george
September 9th, 2009
6:45 pm
Crawford vs. Murray. Who really cares? Both are just pieces. Murray was good during the season, disappeared come crunch time. Not to beat a dead horse, but still think this gm needs to take a gamble ala ainge. Focused on nowitzki for three reasons 1)that unit in dallas had it’s chance and is done, close but no cigar 2)sure that nowitzki could use a cahnge of scenery considering his off-court troubles3)he’s a big-time scorer and will play come springtime. Sure that nut of an owner in dallas would be willing to deal, they’re getting pretty old down there. Nowitzki at power forward, zazza(more of a true center) in the middle, bibby instant offence and threes, jj reaking havic inside and out, and marvin scoring, rebounding, and playing d on lebron, joe smith and collins big strong, veterans off the bench, crawford coming in to score, and teague bringing rookie energy, quickness, and tenacity on other points, see you in june vs. la. Like woodson,but he needs to trust rookie guard( see boston and houston) and his bench, with that lineup their’d be no excuses.
interested party
September 9th, 2009
6:46 pm
has any one heard the rumor that matt ice was on the trade block and that Blank and vick were secretly making up, with talks about bring vick back to atlanta?
joe mama
September 9th, 2009
6:48 pm
george what kind of weed you smoking?
truth-serum
September 9th, 2009
6:54 pm
Rod from College Park
September 9th, 2009
4:55 pm
Any body that doesnt agree with the Bubba posse is the same person.You can have 50 guys tell them they are lost and they will blame it on truth serum and lump all the names into one. Kind of makes it easy to deny reality. Yea. they think denial is a river in egypt.
george
September 9th, 2009
6:56 pm
Crawford vs. Murray? Who really care, they’re both just pieces, Murray was pretty good during the season but really didn’t bring much in the play-offs. Not to beat a dead horse but this gm needs to take a gamble ala ainge. Focused on nowitzki for three reason 1)that team in dallas is done, close but no cigar 2)considering his off-court trouble sure nowitzki could use a change of scenery 3)they’re getting old and their nut job owner would probaly go for it. So now you have nowitzki at power forward, zaza in the middle(more of a true center), bibby outside threat and threes, jj reaking havoc inside and out, marvin scoring, rebounding, guarding lebron in may. crawford instant offense off the bench, veteran experience and size in smith and collins, throw teague into the mix for rookie energy, quickness and defending other point and we’ll see you in june.
Woodson’s ok, needs to trust his rookie(see boston and houston points) and his bench. With that team ther’d be no more excuses…
interested party
September 9th, 2009
7:00 pm
I dont know if this is a good deal or not but there is a rumor that a trade is in the works for M.Vick for Matt Ryan. It could possibly make sense for the Falcons. apparently Ryan missed the practice because of damage to his rotators.
Hoops
September 9th, 2009
7:02 pm
I really like what Sund has done with the Hawks this off season. Teague was a great draft pick. Sund took 3 contracts and turned them into one with the Crawford for Speedy/Law trade and by not resigning Flip. In esscents he got a better scorer off the bench than Flip that can start. We also needed Bibby/Marvin/Zaza to be re-signed. Adding Joe Smith & Jason Collins has really helped our inside depth.
With all of that being said, most of us will agree that the Hawks are greatly improved, but are still a work in progress. We probably have the players in place at this point that we are going to compete with this coming season. I’m sure the Hawks will have a great season with the personnel that they have acquired. But, on the back burner of our future plans, most people understand that we are starting two PF’s and no center. At some point in the next 17 months the Hawks will have to make a decision on who they keep, between Josh Smith and Al Horford, and who they trade. Cap wise that decision will have to come before the trade deadline of the 2010-11 season, but more importantly a starting center will have to be acquired for the Hawks to continue to move toward a NBA Championship…..
joe mama
September 9th, 2009
7:05 pm
I like Dirk and think he would be fine here and cause all kinds of matchup problems for Shaq and KG. It would certainly open the post for the birds as Dirk loves to roam meaning their center will have to vacate the post and then josh BAM! Question is can he work with joe and josh. I think so. But it aint going to happen.
turth-serum
September 9th, 2009
7:07 pm
Hoops- truer words havent been spoken on this page.
interested party
September 9th, 2009
7:09 pm
Vick for Ryan a deal in the making!
jerrywest
September 9th, 2009
7:12 pm
another great one:http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1105478/index.htm
If Dean Oliver and his peers are right, then you are wrong. Wrong if you think Michael Redd is a very good player, wrong if you think Jason Collins is a bad one and wrong if you believe Shane Battier is just another Dukie with a so-so NBA career. � Oliver is a Cal Tech grad with an engineering Ph.D. who works as a paid consultant to the Seattle SuperSonics. He is also part of a small but growing movement, comprising both league insiders and outsiders, that sees its sport through a statistical prism similar to that of the young, laptop-toting generation of baseball executives made famous in Moneyball, Michael Lewis’s best-selling book about Billy Beane and the Oakland A’s. The teams at the forefront of the movement have hired math whizzes such as Oliver, 36, or former Rhodes scholar candidates such as Sam Presti, 29, the Spurs’ assistant general manager, or Stanford MBAs such as Sam Hinkie, 27, a special assistant to Rockets G.M. Carroll Dawson. Joining forces with a burgeoning cult of independent statheads and academics, these new insiders have the same goals as their more celebrated baseball brethren: to identify, through complex statistical analysis, trends, talent and value that no one else sees. By looking deeper than traditional measures of success like ppg, rpg and FG%, they are challenging conventional NBA wisdom and changing, if at first incrementally, how players are evaluated and teams are scouted.
Take, for example, the case of Collins, the fifth-year center for the Nets. To the casual fan Collins is rather unimpressive. He rarely scores, doesn’t block many shots for a center and has an embarrassing habit of laying in balls that, at 7 feet tall, he should be dunking. He is the type of player who could go his entire career and never make a SportsCenter highlight, an anonymity reinforced by his career stats (5.6 points, 4.9 rebounds, 0.6 blocks). But what if one were to dig deeper and measure other aspects of his game? The number of charges taken. The positioning on rebounds. The efficiency of picks set. The fouls not committed.
Perhaps then one would come to the same conclusion as Oliver’s compatriot Dan Rosenbaum, a 35-year-old UNC Greensboro economics professor, occasional correspondent of Mavericks owner Mark Cuban and originator of a respected player-rating system. According to Rosenbaum’s calculations, Collins is not a stiff at all but one of the NBA’s premier defensive centers: the fourth-most effective in the league over the last three seasons, behind only Ben Wallace, Dikembe Mutombo and Theo Ratliff. The methodology is complex (box) but at its core his system measures how New Jersey performs when Collins is on the floor versus when he’s off it. Think of it as basketball’s version of hockey’s plus-minus ratio with a few esoteric twists. The upshot: Over the last three seasons the Nets have been remarkably more effective at the defensive end with Collins in the lineup; they foul less, allow fewer free throws, rebound better and allow fewer points. “He’s very consistent and consistently very good,” says Rosenbaum, “meaning he’s either the luckiest center alive and teams just fall apart when he’s on the court, or he’s doing something.”
On the other hand, Rosenbaum argues that Redd is, statistically, a defensive disaster, his worst-rated two guard in the league by a wide margin. Not even the Bucks guard’s scoring ability (23.0 points per game in 2004-05) can counterbalance his defensive flaws. Over the course of any given 100 possessions, the Bucks are 4.5 points worse on defense with Redd in the game–and only 2.5 points better on offense. As for Battier, by Rosenbaum’s calculations he was the best defensive small forward in the league last season. Memphis was 6.3 points better (per 48 minutes) than its opponent with Battier on the floor and 4.8 points worse with him on the bench.
This approach is far from an exact science, a point that even the statheads emphatically make. For one, unlike baseball, in which individual performance can be easily isolated, the success of a basketball player is influenced by nine others. Still, coaches such as the Rockets’ Jeff Van Gundy and the Spurs’ Gregg Popovich and front office executives such as the Sonics’ Wally Walker are keeping an open mind about their sport’s new math. Says Walker, “In the bigger picture it is helpful. It does allow us to do apples-to-apples comparisons of players and combinations. Data points you can add to the old-fashioned [measures].”
Today franchises–and, for that matter, anyone with a computer–have access to countless complex statistics that are disseminated through the Internet, most notably by the game-charters at 82games.com, a website that provides a staggering amount of data, sliced and diced in hundreds of different ways. This season Roland Beech, a 36-year-old suburban dad who runs the site out of his Northern California home, will have more than 100 volunteers charting games and tracking everything from contested shots to off-the-ball player movement. Not surprisingly, among the most avid visitors to the site are NBA front-office personnel, one of whom asked in a recent e-mail, “Can you add rebound of own shot percent to the rebounding stats?”
The growing appetite NBA front offices have for this outsider-generated data has, in turn, created a market for hiring these statheads on staff. They’re employed largely as advisers, not decision-makers, but it’s not far-fetched to think that they’ll be pulling the strings in the near future. Among the most promising from this group is Celtics senior vice president for operations Daryl Morey, 31, who graduated from MIT’s Sloan School of Management and considers Bill James, the patron saint of quantitative analysis in sports, to be his role model. While Morey by no means ignores points per game, rebounds per game and other statistics popularly held up as benchmarks of success, he also recognizes that those numbers can inflate (or deflate) a player’s value. Instead he is constantly looking for other, more obscure indicators of success such as turnover ratios, eFG% (a weighted field goal percentage that takes into account the added value of three-pointers) and productivity per possession. Yet all of these apparent abstractions have a clear bottom line. “It’s the same principle,” says Morey of the comparisons with Moneyball. “Generate wins for less dollars.”
That has led Morey and the Celtics to such players as Dan Dickau, whom the Celtics acquired in a sign-and-trade this summer from the Hornets for a second-round draft pick. During his first two years in the league, the 6-foot point guard was renowned more for his moppish hair than his skills. After being traded from the Mavericks to the Hornets last season, he was, for the first time in his young career, given a chance to play significant minutes, and he averaged 13.2 points and 5.2 assists. But those statistics told only part of the story. What attracted the Celtics to Dickau were some less-heralded numbers. His ratio of 4.7 assists last season for every bad pass is on par with the 4.8 average of Steve Nash, widely considered to be the game’s premier pure point guard. One can reasonably surmise that playing with better players, Dickau would have had a higher ratio. This is not to suggest that Dickau is a Nash-caliber player, only that, at the price of $7.5 million over three years, Dickau might have been undervalued by the market.
The new math is not just for evaluating individual player value. It’s also a useful tool in scouting team tendencies. During the postseason Oliver–who is best known for his book, Basketball on Paper, which is full of sprawling equations and includes chapters addressing such vexing questions as “The Significance of Derrick Coleman’s Insignificance”–focuses on Seattle’s opponents. Using a program he created called Roboscout, which draws on box scores, shot chart data from 82games.com and play-by-play information, he seeks tendencies that a more traditional scout might not notice.
Last spring, for example, as the Sonics prepared to face the Spurs in the second round of the playoffs, Oliver turned up evidence that while San Antonio was a dominant defensive team, particularly in the paint, it was not bulletproof. “When you go at the midrange, there was a big hole,” he explains. “Compared to the rest of the league, the Spurs are 30-35 percent less vulnerable than the rest of the league from three-point land but 30 percent more vulnerable from midrange.” So, partly on Oliver’s advice, the Sonics pulled up for 15- to 18-foot jumper after jumper. In the end Seattle increased its midrange shooting more than any other Spurs opponent and surprised many people by taking a superior San Antonio team to six games. “If you have a good midrange game against us, you have a better chance,” confirms Spurs assistant Mike Budenholzer. “And with the Sonics, since we wanted to keep them off the three-point line, that left us weaker in the midrange game.”
KevinA
September 9th, 2009
7:18 pm
If Crawford is that great then lets trade him for David Lee. I talk about trading him but I don’t think there is a team in the league that would take him for 6 million let alone 9. If I was Sund I would be looking. If not this year then next. We already have a defensive deficient PG. Now we added another defensive deficient guard. Crawford cant guard the #3 and may not be able to guard the #2. Defense wins games in the NBA. We can only pray Teague can guard.
truth-serum
September 9th, 2009
7:25 pm
Source: Hornets-T’wolves agree on 3-player deal
-A person with direct knowledge of the deal says the New Orleans Hornets have agreed to trade reserve point guard Antonio Daniels and a 2014 second-round draft pick to Minnesota in exchange for forward Darius Songaila and guard Bobby Brown.
the trade had not been officially announced.
The move will cut the Hornets’ payroll by $1.3 million this season.
Songaila has been in the NBA for six seasons, averaging 7 points. Brown, who was on the Hornets’ summer league team in 2008, played 68 games with Sacramento and Minnesota last season, his first in the NBA.
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/basketball/nba/wires/09/09/2030.ap.bkn.hornets.timberwolves.trade.1st.ld.0115/index.html#ixzz0Qeek4V3S
niremetal
September 9th, 2009
7:32 pm
Rod,
I should have guessed you’d turn to racially-charged rhetoric after you implicitly compared people who don’t like Marvin to segregation-era blacks.
Yeah, it was a cheap shot. But after you gave up the pretense of being civil while I was in Italy by taking pot-shots at me and my so-called “lunchroom buddies,” I figured the truce was off.
And I don’t doubt that you’re smart enough to use one handle at home and another at work. Or that you’ve searched the internet for IP-masking sites that are designed to fool administrators on Wordpress and Google-operated blogs. Being a former blog administrator myself, I know the tricks of the trade. It doesn’t take a genius to figure it out (and it really takes a complete and utter ignoramus like truth-serum to NOT figure out the first method).
There was a concerted effort among me and my “lunchroom buddies” to play nice with you for a couple weeks this summer. It seemed to fall apart while I was away. And now that you wanna call me and the people who disagree with you “bubba crew,” at least that makes it clear where your brain is. So don’t blame ME for breaking the truce.
niremetal
September 9th, 2009
7:34 pm
jerrywest,
Great link – I hadn’t seen that article before.