That time of year
It's that time of year again for the Mike Woodson and his Hawks. Training camp is just weeks away and the coach and his team are in the crosshairs.
HAWKSVILLE - For those of us pro basketball loyalists, we always know when it’s time to readjust the schedule to get ready for the NBA season.
Labor Day is my reminder.
I know that in the days immediately following the holiday players will start trickling back into town and showing up for voluntary workouts (go ahead and get your jokes about my Wolverines out of the way now so we can move on to basketball matters) on the track and at the Hawks’ practice facility.
It’s as much as a part of my late summer/fall routine as watching football on the weekend. So I’ll be making my way downtown all week to see who shows up and what kind of work they’re doing in anticipation of the start of training camp, which believe it or not is just roughly three weeks away.
The prognosticators already have an idea of what things will look like once the season starts and how the Hawks will do, for example, our friends at HoopsHype have the Hawks pegged for a return to the fourth spot in the Eastern Conference standings.
I prefer to wait until I actually see someone on the move before offering up any sort of hypothesis about where this team might be headed. So while I was standing over my grill Sunday afternoon, basking in the glory of a decisive win for my team Saturday and enjoying the neighborly ambiance of the world’s greatest bedroom community (neighbors bring over steaming hot crawfish pies and ice cold Arnold Palmers when they see the first sign of grill smoke in Smyrna), the conversation turned to the Hawks.
Specifically, the Ridge Road crew wanted to know who has to have the biggest year for the Hawks to continue their climb up the conference ladder and back into the playoffs and perhaps beyond the second round?
It’s a question, I explained, best answered by those of us that spend far too much time worrying ourselves with these things on a daily basis (if you’re reading this, you know who you are). So before I ask for your take, please allow me to offer my five-point answer:
MIKE WOODSON - the Hawks’ sixth-year head coach has weathered every storm that’s come his way thus far, which is a testament to not only his team’s continual improvement but also his ability to compartmentalize during tough times and rally his troops. But this season will provide perhaps the harshest spotlight he’s faced during his tenure. In each of his five previous seasons few people – fans, pundits or anyone else outside of the city of Atlanta – viewed his team as a playoff player. All that has changed in the past 16 months. Woodson’s entering the final year of his deal, which always adds a little extra drama to the situation, with oversized expectations. The roster is 11-deep with proven NBA players (Randolph Morris is still waiting on the chance to prove himself), the deepest the Hawks have been since Woodson arrived. The bottom line, this team goes where Woodson leads them.
JOE JOHNSON - In the same situation as his coach, in terms of heading into the final year of his deal (until further notice, of course), the Hawks’ captain and All-Star faces an interesting dilemma this season. As his younger teammates have matured and the veteran cast been upgraded, Johnson will have to decide how much of the burden he is willing and able to shoulder this season. Physically, the extended minutes have taken a toll the past two seasons, when his playoff performances weren’t consistently up to his own lofty standards. Crazy as this might sound; if his numbers decreased across the board (especially his minutes) I could see him having a better season than any of his first four with the Hawks.
JAMAL CRAWFORD - Anytime you fleece a team the way the Hawks did when they snatched Crawford from the Golden State Warriors for Acie Law IV and Speedy Claxton, folks expect big things. And Crawford has to deliver, whatever his role ends up being. If he “leads the league in scoring off the bench” as one Hawks’ staffer joked to me in the hours after the deal went down, we’d have some story. But if he just maintains his nearly 20-point scoring average this season he’ll make that deal worth it. Any concerns about Crawford’s fit on this team have been assuaged by multiple in-house sources this summer that insist Crawford developed an instant chemistry with everyone within the organization that’s dealt with him. If the on-court chemistry comes as easily, this could wind up being one of the Hawks’ best personnel moves in years. If not …
RICK SUND - You’ll be hard pressed to find anyone that isn’t convinced that the Hawks’ GM has done a masterful job in his first 13 months on the job. He’s made all the right moves and steadied the organization through one of their best seasons in years. But the toughest challenge comes this season. Sund will have to gauge the Hawks’ progress by the February trade deadline and decide if this team, as presently constituted, provides the best chance for long-term success or not. If not, he’ll have to pull the trigger on the right deal to push the Hawks over top (sort of like his predecessor did two years ago when Billy Knight pulled the trigger on the Mike Bibby deal). Gone are the days when the Hawks’ GM could simply suspend the franchise in rebuilding mode or just maintain. The next step is moving upward and onward, and that almost always requires a deft personnel move one way or another.
JEFF TEAGUE/JOE SMITH/JASON COLLINS - These three guys represent everything the Hawks have needed in the form of depth at their two most crucial positions the past five years. Just a rookie, Teague’s ability to adapt to the NBA game and assume a position backing up Bibby is crucial. If his assimilation comes off without a hitch, and we honestly have no way of knowing how it will go, the need for that third point guard won’t be nearly as urgent as it might be otherwise. Smith and Collins are known commodities in the NBA. You get a versatile scorer and defender in Smith, a veteran frontcourt performer that’s always played much bigger than his listed size. In Collins, the Hawks have a 7-footer capable of lending quality minutes in a situational role, particularly on the defensive end. They have to be the support system, along with Zaza Pachulia, that Josh Smith and Al Horford have had to work without the past two years.
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532 comments Add your comment
undisputed Champ
September 9th, 2009
7:05 am
Big Ray
September 9th, 2009
2:23 am
I choose rather to judge player on what hes done recently. Where hes at now is whats important to me. Yes, flips a scorer. His career pct is close to 50% as compare to Crawfords which is close to 40 %. Do the reseach. Finally on this subject weve exchanged views. I dont want to waste time aurguing. Youve express your unfounded view. Ive expressed my view base on current numbers. BTW, I dont care what a guy did in the third grade or under an organization and coach 3 or 4 years ago. What did he do LAST YEAR? Dont violate the statistic abuse law by telling me how good ZaZa was When he was starter. What did he do last year? Thats where hes at. Have you ever did the cyber date thing where women show you pictures of what they looked like 2 or 3 years ago only to meet them and she how huge they become? You are only as good as your most recent performances.
You are right. I dont agree with your politics or your hate Woody campaign. No, as usual you make unfoundeded statements, like Woodsons defensive scheme is to have Bibby man the post. That is an idiotic statement and its abusive. You should serve time for that one. Teams intentionally isolate bibby, because he cant jump(he and ZaZa have the same leap) so they back him down. Any coach will take advantage of your weaknesses. Duh?!?
If I were to waste my time responding to you I would spend my days answering foolish, and unlearned charges. Some of your Bubbas are naturally ignorant. Some are willfully ignorant. What Obama called the politics of silly. So yes, It may be advisable to discuss other issues and not let you be the engine of the forum.
From you ive learn to use other monikers. Thanks You and ken taught me that well.You both do it all the time.Yes, you are a member of the bubba party. Yes you are a Grand dragon of hate. Did you think that by acknowledging my calling you on it that I wouldnt? Surely you Jest!
Bottom line is Flip proved to me that hes a beast and prove to be a very good scorer. Evidently his tools are respected because he keeps getting signed to contracts. Every year some team is willing to use flip. This year will be no different. I guess I know what the coaches who hire him now. Hes a player. Yeah Sund mismanages money. Just like Cdog said. In Collins he getting the same numbers hes getting from ZaZa except its 5.5 million dollars less. Given flips numbers as a full time player he could easily post 17-22 points a game. Im not interested in what he did in the third grade, his rookie year or 3 years ago. comparing full time numbers from last year. There is not much difference in what flip brings and what Crawford brings. I will grant that Crawford was a focus point on his team and was a fulltime starter where flip was not. Who is saying that if flip was a fulltimer he couldnt score 17 points agame? Yeah, Right@! He could easily so the issue is Sund could have got the numbers for less. Why buy a new truck when this one is paid for and getting the job done?
I wont talk to you any more because you use your politics to mask your hatred of Woodson. I encourage you not to talk to me. Youve lost any respect I had for you. So do us a favor. Dont try to engage me in conversation. I tried to talk to people whos opinion I respect. I dont respect yours or Kens. So rather that waste the bloggers time with back and forth I will go to the statistic court and seek a restrainting order on your hate filled woody hater butt!
Bob Wiess
September 9th, 2009
7:06 am
HOW MUCH WOOD COULD A WOODY HATER CHUCK IF A WOODY HATER COULD CHUCK WOOD?
trump card
September 9th, 2009
7:34 am
jerrywest
September 9th, 2009
12:38 am
I agree with you. Filp has been used to fill the shoes of a star like Ray Allen why he was injured. Of course Seattle thought so much of Ray Allen that they let him go to Boston. Yea, its hard to explain why seattle has made the so many illogical mistakes. Bottom line is flip is very talented.
To get a true gage of his talents lets see what he did in the playoffs last year.
This will tell us what he can do against the higher level of competion and where his game is at. BTW he made 1.5 mil last year
30 mins miami 4/22 15points
34 mins miami 4/29 23points
30 mins miami 5/3 15points
36 mins cleve 5/9 17points
32 mins cleve 5/11 14points
These are playoff numbers against the higher competition. Even for the biased its easy to see that given full time numbers flip produces the same numbers we will pay Crawford 6 million more for. Glad Sunds not spending my money. With all the money he could have saved with ZAZA and Crawford we could have had a center by now!
Bob Wiess
September 9th, 2009
7:06 am
HOW MUCH WOOD COULD A WOODY HATER CHUCK IF A WOODY HATER COULD CHUCK WOOD?
Ill get back to you on that one. How may Woody haters are there?
jerrywest
September 9th, 2009
12:42 am
Amen!The point is not about whether Horford can score(he hasnt), but whether he can defend the post. That is the issue. Stat Quote while relevant arent absolute in the 5 spot.
vava74
September 9th, 2009
7:36 am
Undisputed Champ,
I am not entirely sold on Jamal Crawford, however, you should do some research before you launch your rants:
Flip’s career FG% is 41,8%, and his career 3pt% is 30,2%.
Jamal’s career FG% is 40,4%, and his career 3pt% is 34,7%.
Not much of a difference, but you should bear in mind that, since Jamal is a better 3pt shooter, he racks more points with the same amount of shots than Flip.
Jamal is also a much better FT shooter for his career.
Jamal never played in the playoffs, hence, he must prove that he can produce under extreme pressure.
HOWEVER, Flips numbers in the playoffs are:
LAST YEAR
ATL G11 GS0 MinPG31,0 FG%0,341 3pt%0,280 FT%0,865 RPG2,7 APG2,5 STL1,1 BLK0,3 TO1,27 PPG11,8
CAREER:
G40 GS5 MinPG23,5 FG%0,330 3Pt%0,244 FT%0,805 RPG2,2 ASS1,7 STL0,6 BLK0,2 TO0,83 PPG 6,9
I think the numbers speak for themselves.
vava74
September 9th, 2009
7:42 am
Undisputed Champ,
If you like undersized combo guards with a playoff career average for FG% of 33% and a 3pt% of 24,4%, be my guest.
Flip did “WELL” last year, but I am confident that – even discarding Crawford from the equation – if you give Teague all the shots given to Flip, he will produce either the same or better numbers.
just checking in
September 9th, 2009
7:55 am
trump card
I too think Flip is a player. Hard to believe you can spend all that money on Crawford instead of using what you already have. Go figure.
Bob Wiess are you saying Woody haters are wood peckers? or peckers(of) wood?
Dashizz357
September 9th, 2009
8:07 am
The guys that’s ripping Woody aren’t looking at the body of work this coach has put in, I’m happy with Woody, name another coach that can do better? Let’s face it, we don’t have one solid all-star or leader on our team , I like Joe but he’s not a solid all-star, good player yes, all-star no, he made the team because Gilbert was hurt, Vince Carter was out along with Michael Redd and yet the other top 3 teams in this division have 2 if not 3 all-stars on their teams.
Managerment has yet to invest in this team correctly, face it…they’ve yet to spend money on a big time player that would put us over the top such as Shaq ( who’s better than all our center’s put together), KG, Camby and the list goes on.
Let’s stop blaming Woody for a team that’s really playing as good as expected, do you really think this is a championship team…….Stop kidding yourself, spend the money and get a superstar in here to lead this young team to new high’s, until than get off coach’s nut & let him do his job!
Go Hawks……
Undisputed Champ!
September 9th, 2009
8:15 am
My bad. Ill pay that fine I meant to say his percentage last year was 45%.(44.7 to be exact). Yes flip game has developed. Teaque is unproven. We dont know what he can do on a pro level. He could be a bust like acie or rumeal robinson or he may be a michael jordon. Time will tell.
Flip numbers.
Season 80 24.7 355-795 .447 87-242 .360 177-233 .760 0.3 1.8 2.1 1.10 .21 1.60 2.16 2.0 12.2 – ESPN
Crawford was 406 last year with GS and .404 career and flip was .447 last year and .418 career. Check ESPN Crawford does have a slight edge in three point shooting. All and all the numbers are very simular which is my point. Which is, we could have had the same numbers for significantly less!
You own numbers are in error. that .418 for flip career and .404 for Crawford. Not 41,8 for flip. The point your numbers make is at .418 flip is a better shot than crawford at .404
BobWiess
September 9th, 2009
8:21 am
Dashizz357
I agree with you but becareful. There is a lynch mob of anti Woodson haters here that will string you up for making that statement.
trump card
September 9th, 2009
8:26 am
Vava74 I agree with your point about playoffs performance and I agree with Undisputed Champ that we must scout where you game is today, not where it was when abe lincoln was a boy. HERES WHAT FLIP DID LAST YEAR IN THE PLAYOFFS:
30 mins miami 4/22 15points
34 mins miami 4/29 23points
30 mins miami 5/3 15points
36 mins cleve 5/9 17points
32 mins cleve 5/11 14points
IT SHOULD NOT BE HARD TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT HE IS A PLAYER WHO CAN SCORE GIVEN THE MINUTES.
BOB WIESS
September 9th, 2009
8:28 am
TRY SAYING THIS REAL FAST THREE TIMES.
HOW MUCH WOOD COULD A WOODY HATER CHUCK IF A WOODY HATER COULD CHUCK WOOD?
WEIGH IT !
September 9th, 2009
8:36 am
WEIGH IT !
TO THE WOODY HATER NATION(ALSO KNOWN AS THE BUBBA CREW)
Ive been reading your blogs for a while too. It seems to me that while this truth-serum guy is pretty hard on you, it seems his questions are valid. Example. You fling a lot of venom at Woodson with your analysis but when Mr truth-serum questions you about you experience or coaching background you dont seem to have an answer which make it seem that you dont have any more knowledge or experience than the next guy and that would by default make you attack on Woodson personal. I understand that he and Mr Schultz dont get along and Woodson wont grant him an interview, but you seem relentless in your attack and tirade against Woodson. Now that the sixth youngest team in the NBA is beginning to mature can we at least have a couple of losing seasons before you engulf this site with so much hate and anti Woodson posting. Id like to just be able to come to a site and have positive feed and support towards the Hawks. This is my team and atlanta’s team and like it or not Woodson is the coach. You do turn me off (and im sure lots of fans who would like to get in the excitement of the hawks) with your non stop sprewing of hatred. Please let those of us who like the hawks and think woody is a fine coach enjoy this site. Cant you just write Woodson a letter and tell him you hate him and leave the rest of us alone? Can you and your racist friends take your stuff else where….Please?
We just want to root for and support the Hawks. My friends would like to share this blog sight but get turned off by your hatred. OK you hate woodson. Everyone knows it. Can we change the subject so that the true fans can build excitement about the up coming season.
We all have an opinion of how to coach a team, and we all have our favorites players and coaches. Youve made clear your opinion. Thank you for sharing. Most of us have an different opinion than yours. You have no more knowledge and or experience than the rest of us. Please sit down and be quiet.
Thank you.
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just checking in.
September 9th, 2009
8:45 am
Flip is gone. Count it a missed opportunity. The guard rotation is set(as over priced as it is). The only thing that will hold the hawks from the upper levels is a lack of a bonafied center.
BOB WIESS
September 9th, 2009
9:01 am
Bob Weiss
September 4th, 2009
5:51 pm
Bob Weiss
September 3rd, 2009
7:10 pm
Ken, Ray, Help me get my job back.
Big Ray, Look, I just want my job back. Keep up the hate on Coach Woodson and then when guys like Mike Vick or O J ask you who do you think should be the coach you plug and play my name see. Its a complicated scheme that can be between you and me see…
truth-serum
September 9th, 2009
9:07 am
The Flash
September 8th, 2009
10:44 pm
‘
Ditto on the smoove special talent. There is something special about his detemination on a dunk. He has an attitude and nique was for show. Smoove on a dunk is worth the price of admission. His attitude brings an edge and personifies this teams spirit.
vava74
September 9th, 2009
9:19 am
If you are happy with a journeyman smallish combo guard who has career playoff % of:
FG33% 3PT24,4% be my guest.
Also, his performance in last year’s playoffs speaks for it self:
FG%34,1% 3PT28%
Yes, he scored points, however, he did it with waaay too many shots.
In relation to the Flip/Jamal comparison, I do not stand corrected since Jamal is more effective from beyond the 3-point line, the % differential is neutralized.
Also, Jamal goes more to the line and has a higher FT%.
I am not saying that Flip was not productive and that Jamal is – before he steps onto the court and proves it – a huge improvement over Flip.
What I am saying is that, they are, at least equivalent, and we dumped 2 players we did not want and their 2 contracts and got a player who has some potential and only 2 years of contract left.
If Jamal does not prove to be a good replacement for Flip, next year he will still be a good trading chip on account of his expiring contract.
red
September 9th, 2009
9:26 am
players who only relies in their athleticism to become signicant won’t last long in this league. age and injuries dictates their fate. if you guys say that josh will be the future of this team then he should work more on his perimeter game and show improvement in his BASKETBALL IQ. he should also prove that he’s up to the challenge in becoming the leader of this team in the future. if he has anything more to show us…he must show it now cause if you’re goin to ask me i have a bad feeling about the JJ extension.
Daniel
September 9th, 2009
9:46 am
Melvin- cool link to the C.Webb five Hawks. Mookie over Doc though? Smith over Joe? interesting….
Weigh It- As a regular here, and someone who actually tends to be more of a Woodson supporter I agree with your assessment that there are several people who regularly bash Woodson. It is also fair to let us know that it makes you not enjoy the blog to read their constant critiques of Wooson. But, it is completely false and unfair to label those people as racist. They are sharing an opinion on the coach of the team that they love. I can’t stand Schultz’s take on Woodson either, but just so you know Sekou doesn’t really endorse him either.
It is dangerous, simple minded, and well ignorant to label people racist or the “bubba crew” just because they don’t share your opinion on a basketball coach.
That is much less welcome here than people that want to critisize the coach.
Astro Joe
September 9th, 2009
10:03 am
Vava, care to share Crawford’s career playoff stats?
Sautee
September 9th, 2009
10:09 am
truth-serum, or whomever,
You said this about the Lopez / Horford supposed “domination”:
“Those numbers are what they are because Horford played a full game and Lopez a half, further if Lopez had played a full game Horford numbers would have been less.”
Let’s NOT try to rewrite history here. In the game you mention (on 11/15) Lopez played 28:14 or 76 SECONDS less than his season average of 30.5
I’m sorry that his stats weren’t better that day, but they are what they are. And they did NOT show TOTAL DOMINATION.
I’ll not go to the trouble to break it down further when you try to exaggerate your way out of someone calling you out. 76 seconds is not much of a difference now, is it?
Look man, I’ve been on the Brooke Lopez train from before that draft. I liked him at Stanford and rued that we didn’t have a viable way to move up and take him. If you go back to the archives of that draft night you’ll see my post saying that I was surprised that a 7 footer with his skills lasted that long. So don’t think that I’m anti-Lopez, but just the opposite. But at this point the Nets know what they have and we’d have to give up too much to get him, if they would trade him at all.
I wouldn’t if I were them.
However, other than the first game, he did NOT look better than Horford. And that first game was a prime example of why folks get upset with Woody, as he refused to adjust the defense even though Devin Harris was driving the lane at will and mostly dumping it of to Lopez for dunks. He had 4 dunks in the first quarter alone and Horford was doing his “job” which is to leave his man and defend the penetrator. But somehow, in your mind, this is Lopez dominating Horford. Lopez DID show me a good drop step and a nice half hook that night. But SO many of his points came on Harris’ penetration, that I cannot say that he “dominated” Horford. If you want to say that Devin Harris “dominated” the Hawks that night, I’d agree.
Mike is back
September 9th, 2009
10:24 am
Flash,
Ditto on Smoove…it must be Football time…because given so much down time…the topic will always turn to Smoove…invariably the tone will BE negative…so much trepidation about Josh…while its all so easy to over look other players flaws…and all the so call other players that are SO mentally gifted and superior to Smoove…trading him for Al Jefferson…what a joke…worried about Crawford…why the Hawks can’t challenge the top three in East.
Who had Phillips lit up like an electric grid during the playoff…you can’t find that in the stat sheet…but u no who he is…tha no who he is…u no who he is…tha no who he is. Heh heh
Like Sekou said, expectation should always be tempered with a dose of reality…that goes for the team and the players…this team configuration has been immensely improve…the Hawks are ready to kick some assssssssssss…who else better than Crawford could you have gotten for Acie and Speedy jeez…why all the worry. This is the best assembly of talent I have seen in a looooooooooooooooooong tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiime…did I mention a long time.lol
It’s on Woody now…and I wish him the best…he couldn’t ask for a better circumstance to retain his job…this will be his defining moment.
I’M BULLISH ON SMOOVE…AND I’M F***ING FIRED UP ABOUT HAWKS…AND THEN SUM…HALLA @ YA BOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
vava74
September 9th, 2009
10:27 am
Astro,
I already mentioned/acknowledged above that Jamal has not played a single playoff game.
However, that does not overrule the fact that Flip has shown that he does not have enough quality to justify all the fuss around him and that HIS playoff record is very poor.
I prefer to take a chance on the unknown than to go safe with a player which value is capped and known.
Yes, he did “WELL” last year in the regular season, but hardly anything that Jamal cannot replicate or improve on.
Then the only issue is COST. And that I already explained above as well: Jamal came through a trade whereby we dumped 2 contracts we did not need, thus neutralizing the weight of Jamal’s rather large contract in our cap room.
If Jamal fails to satisfy us, then his expiring contract (in 2010-11) should be a valuable trading chip on account of today’s cap rules.
The bottom line is, rather than buying out Speedy and having Acie riding the pine, we got something for them, and that, in my books, is a PLUS PLUS.
KevinA
September 9th, 2009
10:28 am
Critiquing players and coach/GM along with cheering them on is what a blog is all about. What I don’t understand is why people take it personal. If my math is right we are 20 or so days before Sund can look at trading Crawford and signing Flip. It may be impossible to do considering the high salary and lack of defensive skills. I hope Flips hangs around, just in case. He is a great bang for the dollar.
The only reason Flip got so many minutes last year was because of injury and the lack of Acie play. If Bibby stays healthy and if Teague plays even ok, Crawford/Flip might have a much smaller role to play.
As far as the Woody debate – he is in the same position Josh, Marvin, Childress, Al and ZaZa are in. Improving every year with upside potential. Each player and the coach has warts and strengths. At some point they will plateau and we can decide on their value at that point. In the meantime there should always be room for competing views.
Daniel
September 9th, 2009
10:32 am
Astro- Vava is right about Crawford. His contract has been managed well, and your fears that his contract would prevent the Hawks from making other moves has been proven wrong. Crawford is clearly an upgrade from Flip. Like Flip, wish him well but that is just the facts. Everyone in the league can see that.
I MUS WRITE
September 9th, 2009
10:33 am
NBA.COM what a joke…. That list is garbage.Okurshould be lower and Bargnani should be on that list at all. Lopez and Hillario should be higher.
ILL-logical
September 9th, 2009
10:34 am
With the demise of the Georgia’s BCS hopes, the Braves collapse and the growing uncertainty concerning the Falcon’s defense, the Hawks may have burden of displaced expectations placed upon them this season: The Atlanta sports fan may not have anywhere else to go for their playoff fix.
And that could pose some problems fro a squad that while confident is still not a polished product and untested in the public eye. After traveling under the radar for the last few years, the Hawks now find themselves mentioned regularly in the national and local media. How the team/ coaching staff handles the increased scrutiny could be a very interesting if unanticipated factor this season.
I MUS WRITE
September 9th, 2009
10:38 am
Ditto Daniel…..How can people make judgement on crawford before he plays a minute withthe team. All this Flip luv is turning my stomach. Yeah he’s a good value when u consider talent vs price tag,but if he was that valuable he would be signed by now.
Wadd up Ray…..Still chasing the badd guys around savannah huh? be careful man I went home recently and u and your people are among savannahs most hated.
Ariose
September 9th, 2009
10:41 am
I think a lot of you are missing the point with Flip. The real issue is that Mike Woodson is crippling this team. Hear me out. If he were a coach who actually could manage minutes and Rick Sund were certain that Teauge Would get his minutes even if Flip were here in a 3rd PG type of role, he would have brought Flip Murray back right?
Tell me this, Would you rather have Teauge, Flip, and Crawford; Or just Teauge and Crawford? Exactly. Keeping around a scorer like Flip keeps us closer to being a contender than NOT having Flip. Even if he doesnt play. Period, End of story.
I’ve said this before, because of Woodsons inability to manage minutes, were not getting the best product that we could have had for a team this season. It’s just the truth…
I’m not campaigning for him to come back so don’t hit me up with that nonsense. It is what it is at this point. But were better with another 12.2PPG on our roster as opposed to not having it as an option. Thats the reality. I’m not hating on Mike Woodson, but his deficancies are hurting this team. We will see if I am indeed correct in that regard this season. We havwe a lot of tlent this season. The most he has ever had the privlage of working with as a head coach. If we dont meet expectations this season, it won’t be because of injuries, it will be because of poor personell management.
Undisputed Champ!
September 9th, 2009
10:55 am
vava74
September 9th, 2009
9:19 am
“What I am saying is that, they are, at least equivalent, and we dumped 2 players we did not want and their 2 contracts and got a player who has some potential and only 2 years of contract left.”
Ok We agree. They are equivalent. I also agree that in some ways Crawford is better. My point is that the numbers dont justify the huge expenditure. Flip is a low budget form of Crawford. I hope you are right about Teague.
As for the correction. 41,8 is not .418 . I can admit when im wrong. I hope you can too.
Sautee
September 9th, 2009
10:09 am
The issue was the head to head match up with horford and Lopez. You should get a ticket. Bottom line is head to head Lopez put up better numbers in less time, or Horford put up less numbers in more time. Its about head to head. Center to powerforward.
I am just looking for ways to up grade a position that the ajc poll agreed(by better than 80%) was our weakest link. I would also like to have a Bynum or even save money from the crawford and Zaza contracts and tried to draft up for the UCONN center. Im just keeping it real. searching out the possibilities.
I dont think you are Anti Lopez as much as you are Pro Horford. I like what you said earlier about creating an offense for Horford and trying to get Joe and Bibby to feed him. This would work if Horford has developed some tools. He doesnt play well with his back to the board and hes to light to back anyone down. His best shot is a 10-12 face up jumper.
He Played in a hispanic leaque during the offseason so may hes developing offense. I like him as a person and he has prove to be a solid player and yes. He does make good decisions with the ball in his hands. If he had an offensive game he could be a point forward ala Scottie Pippin.
Josh Smith is a better forward and its scary that Josh came here from high school.
I think we should have enough bodies to hold the fort until we can aquire a center. Make no mistake about it. If we are contemplating a championship we will need a real center.
Crawford has no playoff stats…Does he?
Undisputed Champ!
September 9th, 2009
11:07 am
Yeah flip got paid 1.5 million and Crawford will get $9,360,000. Hummm. I could accept 5 or 6 points less from flip and use the 8 million on a center to score in the paint. lets see. ZaZa 6 million minus 500.000 from Collins. I could have got close to the same numbers and saved 8-12 million. Gee. We could win about the same number of games for less.
jerrywest
September 9th, 2009
11:08 am
How can we help Nique become the GM of Cleveland or Miami?
JerryWest traded Gasol to his love – Lakers. McHale traded Garnett to his love -Celtics. We need to start grooming our ex-players as future GMs.
Daniel
September 9th, 2009
11:12 am
Ariose- man, dude, whoa. I don’t think that you can make the link between not resigning Flip to Sund not believing that Woodson can manage minutes. (Also that does make you hating on Woodson) Flip hasn’t been signed anywhere as of yet,(unless I missed something) so there is NO NEED to rush to sign him. Sund has the opportunity to scour the market for any 3rd point guard that remains. It is a business decision and a smart one. The Hawks not resigning Flip is not a reflection on Woodson’s abilities as a coach.
C’mon man, you know better than that.
weigh it
September 9th, 2009
11:17 am
red
Thats fair enough. I agree.
Aroise I like your take on the flip thing. Touche’
Jerry West a good GM is hard to find.
truth-serum
September 9th, 2009
11:22 am
I MUST WRITE
September 9th, 2009
10:33 am
Horford and Pachulia did not crack the top 15 on ESPN’s list of centers. LOPEZ weighed in at 11 – whats up with that?
vava74
September 9th, 2009
11:34 am
Undisputed champ,
“As for the correction. 41,8 is not .418 . I can admit when im wrong. I hope you can too.”
How come? .418 means 418 out of 1000, which is exactly the same as 41,8% or 41.8 out of 100.
In relation to Crawford’s playoff stats, I already told you and will repeat:
Flip’s playoff stats are so BAD that I prefer to go into the post season with someone with no playoff experience and that might surprise us all.
Also, with regard to signing Flip as our 5th G:
He would not be happy with a diminished role. Every single time he was relegated to the deep end of the bench on other teams, he complained and was perceived as a bad locker room presence.
truth-serum
September 9th, 2009
11:35 am
KevinA
September 9th, 2009
10:28 am
I dont always agree with you but I must commend your post. Yes flip is a great bang for the money. And Yes, the issue is cost, We would be hard pressed to dump a 10 million salary if Crawford did not play defense or he cant stand up to playoff heat. Hes never be tested. Yes flip is a great bang for the buck and a good value for the money. Being a GM is all about dollars and cents and not getting locked in to contracts you cant shed in time to switch and go in another direction.
What is your list of top 5 GM’s?
Sautee
September 9th, 2009
11:38 am
“Bottom line is head to head Lopez put up better numbers in less time, or Horford put up less numbers in more time”
OK, finally some sense without hype. I can totally agree with the above statement.
However, it was NOT “total domination” and “no contest”. That was the hype I was trying to get you beyond. Thanks for being real.
If I were starting a team, in a vacuum, I’d choose Lopez before Horford. But Horford is who we have, so I’ll defend him to the teeth. And I still think he holds up well, which is shown by the efficiency rating which has Horford as 8th in the league for centers. Lopez is 13th. Yes, Lopez gets a slight edge head to head, but against all comers Al did just fine.
trump card
September 9th, 2009
11:39 am
Ok Bob weiss.
750 14 inch 18 foot tall trees of wood. Thats how much wood a woody hater could chuck if a woody hater could chuck wood. Thats rounded off to the nearest place.
Astro Joe
September 9th, 2009
11:42 am
Crawford wil likely be better in the Andrew Toney role than Flip. But not so much better that it justifies the salary difference. But the deal is done and it did not interfere with Sund’s ability to provide quality depth to the front court. I just wouldn’t use playoff stats to evaluate player B when player A is void of data.
Undisputed Champ!
September 9th, 2009
11:47 am
We are close to agreement. Ill say significantly better numbers. To get power efficency numbers you divide minutes played into production and you get power numbers. So to say Lopez did more with less time is to say his power numbers are stronger. I will agree that Al survived and licked his wounds. The ESPN numbers posted above Rank Lopez number 11 where neither ZAZA nor Horford was able to crack the top 15. Sorry. Maybe we can spin the numbers another way to may what isnt appear to be true. You seem to have a nack for that- smile!
Bob Wiess
September 9th, 2009
11:51 am
Trump card I calculated a little higher number than that. I counted almost 1200 16″ 25′ oak trees. Thats how much wood a woody hater could chuck if a Woody hater could chuck wood. Tell you what. Lets do the calculation in pine and then maybe our numbers might be closer.
niremetal
September 9th, 2009
11:56 am
Most of us have an different opinion than yours.
Gee, you mean the many, various, and sundry alter egos of truth-serum? Well yes, among that population of 1 person using at least 4 different handles, a majority think Woody is a good coach.
But I hate to break it to you – you can put on as many disguises as you want. You still only get 1 vote. Just like a certain Marvin-hating person we all can name.
Bob Wiess
September 9th, 2009
12:00 pm
niremetal Whats you calculation of how much wood could a woody hater chuck if a woody hater could chuck wood? Is a wood pecker and a pecker wood the same thing?
vava74
September 9th, 2009
12:08 pm
Nire,
I think that truth serum’s approval rating of Woody is only 75%, there is probably at least 1 out of 4 alter egos who doesn’t approve him…
I haven’t checked all posts and the above is based only on “logic”
since there is always a fraction of our personality that plays the devil’s advocate and disagrees with our actions…
Truth-serum
September 9th, 2009
12:10 pm
I like Marvin and think he a very important part of this team. I dont want him any where but atlanta. The kid only played 1 year of college and when he matures will be unstoppable. In about three years hell be better than JJ and younger. Sorry.
BTW you dont fool me, Sekou, Ken, and Big Ray only get 1 vote no matte how many aliases they use.
trump card
September 9th, 2009
12:13 pm
1132, 14.3 in 12 ft tall pine trees. Thats how much wood a woody hater could chuck if woody hater could chuck wood! Did any body get a different number?
Bob Wiess
September 9th, 2009
12:14 pm
Trump card
You beat me to it. Thats what i got too!
Sautee
September 9th, 2009
12:24 pm
truth-serum,
What’s your theory on why no GM in the league has signed Flip?
I mean he IS a great value, or was last year to the Hawks. But not a single GM has signed him. Got any idea why?
Sautee
September 9th, 2009
12:27 pm
truth-serum,
can you give a link to that espn list of centers?
vava74
September 9th, 2009
12:27 pm
Astro,
Let me get this straight:
If I had to choose between signing Flip for 1,5 million or Jamal for 5 or more, I would probably go for Flip.
However, this is not what we are talking about: we replaced Flip (-1,5 million on the salary cap) for a player (+9,2million) which is at least equivalent talent wise, dumping 2 salaries (- 7,4 million) which we did not need/want, and that will have trade value on his last year of contract.
As you can see, we were left with almost the same cap room but with 1 more slot in the roster, allowing us to go for, both Joe and Collins.
AND AGAIN: Flip’s numbers in the playoffs speak for themselves, they are SH*T man! Both historically and last year.