That time of year
It's that time of year again for the Mike Woodson and his Hawks. Training camp is just weeks away and the coach and his team are in the crosshairs.
HAWKSVILLE - For those of us pro basketball loyalists, we always know when it’s time to readjust the schedule to get ready for the NBA season.
Labor Day is my reminder.
I know that in the days immediately following the holiday players will start trickling back into town and showing up for voluntary workouts (go ahead and get your jokes about my Wolverines out of the way now so we can move on to basketball matters) on the track and at the Hawks’ practice facility.
It’s as much as a part of my late summer/fall routine as watching football on the weekend. So I’ll be making my way downtown all week to see who shows up and what kind of work they’re doing in anticipation of the start of training camp, which believe it or not is just roughly three weeks away.
The prognosticators already have an idea of what things will look like once the season starts and how the Hawks will do, for example, our friends at HoopsHype have the Hawks pegged for a return to the fourth spot in the Eastern Conference standings.
I prefer to wait until I actually see someone on the move before offering up any sort of hypothesis about where this team might be headed. So while I was standing over my grill Sunday afternoon, basking in the glory of a decisive win for my team Saturday and enjoying the neighborly ambiance of the world’s greatest bedroom community (neighbors bring over steaming hot crawfish pies and ice cold Arnold Palmers when they see the first sign of grill smoke in Smyrna), the conversation turned to the Hawks.
Specifically, the Ridge Road crew wanted to know who has to have the biggest year for the Hawks to continue their climb up the conference ladder and back into the playoffs and perhaps beyond the second round?
It’s a question, I explained, best answered by those of us that spend far too much time worrying ourselves with these things on a daily basis (if you’re reading this, you know who you are). So before I ask for your take, please allow me to offer my five-point answer:
MIKE WOODSON - the Hawks’ sixth-year head coach has weathered every storm that’s come his way thus far, which is a testament to not only his team’s continual improvement but also his ability to compartmentalize during tough times and rally his troops. But this season will provide perhaps the harshest spotlight he’s faced during his tenure. In each of his five previous seasons few people – fans, pundits or anyone else outside of the city of Atlanta – viewed his team as a playoff player. All that has changed in the past 16 months. Woodson’s entering the final year of his deal, which always adds a little extra drama to the situation, with oversized expectations. The roster is 11-deep with proven NBA players (Randolph Morris is still waiting on the chance to prove himself), the deepest the Hawks have been since Woodson arrived. The bottom line, this team goes where Woodson leads them.
JOE JOHNSON - In the same situation as his coach, in terms of heading into the final year of his deal (until further notice, of course), the Hawks’ captain and All-Star faces an interesting dilemma this season. As his younger teammates have matured and the veteran cast been upgraded, Johnson will have to decide how much of the burden he is willing and able to shoulder this season. Physically, the extended minutes have taken a toll the past two seasons, when his playoff performances weren’t consistently up to his own lofty standards. Crazy as this might sound; if his numbers decreased across the board (especially his minutes) I could see him having a better season than any of his first four with the Hawks.
JAMAL CRAWFORD - Anytime you fleece a team the way the Hawks did when they snatched Crawford from the Golden State Warriors for Acie Law IV and Speedy Claxton, folks expect big things. And Crawford has to deliver, whatever his role ends up being. If he “leads the league in scoring off the bench” as one Hawks’ staffer joked to me in the hours after the deal went down, we’d have some story. But if he just maintains his nearly 20-point scoring average this season he’ll make that deal worth it. Any concerns about Crawford’s fit on this team have been assuaged by multiple in-house sources this summer that insist Crawford developed an instant chemistry with everyone within the organization that’s dealt with him. If the on-court chemistry comes as easily, this could wind up being one of the Hawks’ best personnel moves in years. If not …
RICK SUND - You’ll be hard pressed to find anyone that isn’t convinced that the Hawks’ GM has done a masterful job in his first 13 months on the job. He’s made all the right moves and steadied the organization through one of their best seasons in years. But the toughest challenge comes this season. Sund will have to gauge the Hawks’ progress by the February trade deadline and decide if this team, as presently constituted, provides the best chance for long-term success or not. If not, he’ll have to pull the trigger on the right deal to push the Hawks over top (sort of like his predecessor did two years ago when Billy Knight pulled the trigger on the Mike Bibby deal). Gone are the days when the Hawks’ GM could simply suspend the franchise in rebuilding mode or just maintain. The next step is moving upward and onward, and that almost always requires a deft personnel move one way or another.
JEFF TEAGUE/JOE SMITH/JASON COLLINS - These three guys represent everything the Hawks have needed in the form of depth at their two most crucial positions the past five years. Just a rookie, Teague’s ability to adapt to the NBA game and assume a position backing up Bibby is crucial. If his assimilation comes off without a hitch, and we honestly have no way of knowing how it will go, the need for that third point guard won’t be nearly as urgent as it might be otherwise. Smith and Collins are known commodities in the NBA. You get a versatile scorer and defender in Smith, a veteran frontcourt performer that’s always played much bigger than his listed size. In Collins, the Hawks have a 7-footer capable of lending quality minutes in a situational role, particularly on the defensive end. They have to be the support system, along with Zaza Pachulia, that Josh Smith and Al Horford have had to work without the past two years.
You know what I think.
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532 comments Add your comment
george
September 8th, 2009
4:18 pm
We have a good solid basketball team, but this team lacks a superstar and a low-post scorer. The only other team to have won a championship in the modern era without either is the pistons of a few years ago, and they had great coaching, bought into the team concept, played big D and had billups. Forget jefferson, the trade that I would propose would be josh smith ( and horford or williams or picks if necessary) for nowitzki. Yeah, it’s a gamble, we’d lose youth, but we’d be a legitimate contender for the for the next two or three years.
The Flash
September 8th, 2009
5:18 pm
What Josh gives this team that is unique is that he makes plays that shouldn’t outta happen. JJ, as great a shooter as he is, makes jaw dropping shots but they are not the kind of plays a team needs that provides, I don’t know what you call it, electricity. The-kid-from-UCLA-in-the-playoffs kind of plays. And, it is not just on blocked shots, or steals, or even on stupendous dunks, although they all certainly count. What I’m talking about is how every once in a while Josh saunters towards the rim and pulls out something special, no, not a super dunk, something that only a guy with his ability to slevate and be oh so SMOOTH could envision. You all know exactly what I’m talking about. In this world of sports as entertainment, some things are priceless.
Atl Fan
September 8th, 2009
5:43 pm
Any word on Flip Murray?
vava74
September 8th, 2009
5:47 pm
The Flash,
I can acknowledge the “Nique” effect that J-Smoove brings to the organization. He helped put the Hawks in the spotlight with his highlights, his slam dunk championship, …
BUT, let’s face it, apart from his extraordinary help defense and his dunks, the rest of his game is a bad emulation of the wrong side of Rasheed Wallace’s game: his constant complaints to the refs (who already hate him), his treys (although J-Smoove doesn’t hit them) and Rasheed’s recent permanent migration to 3pt land instead of focusing in playing down low and rebounding.
It’s JJ that brought the team up and it was Bibby that stabilized it, not J-Smoove.
KevinA
September 8th, 2009
6:09 pm
A lot of what were talking about comes down to shot attempts. Al needs a couple of hundred more 594/800. Josh could use a few more add 100 849/1000. Marvin needs to be a focal point also (driving the ball) 622/ 950.
Those extra shots for the big’s and Marvin equal 684 shots, divided by 82 games = about 8 shots per game. This would mean shifting about 10% of FG shots to the front court.
We may have been much closer to this last year if it were not for injury. If our young studs improve their offense like I think they will Woody might even adjust the percentage of attempts even higher.
JJ needs to drop his attempts by at least 400 and Bibby by 300 to make this happen.
JJ 1420/1020 and Bibby1005/700. This still leaves 1,000 attempts for Teague/Crawford replacing the Flip/Acie shots. If Joe Smith/ZaZa plays well, maybe a couple hundred of these shots could go to them as well.
The million dollar question is will JJ and Bibby/Crawford be happy giving up these attempts for the good of the team. What are Woody’s plans.
Jody
September 8th, 2009
7:28 pm
I really like the additions of Collins and Joe Smith. I think it makes the Hawks more competitive, but not quite on the level of top teams (Celtics, Lakers etc…). The Hawks will still need to add a TRUE center precense before they can take the next step to compete with the elite (though I think Collins will help this year).
undisputed Champ
September 8th, 2009
7:48 pm
Sautee
September 8th, 2009
3:39 pm
The relationship between Magic and Kareem is well known. Kareem is one of the reasons Johnson told lakers management it ok to draft him. You could always count on the unstoppable swing left shoot right sky hook in a pinch and in the half court set you could bank it! Magic was accustomed to winning and Kareem was the pivot point of the show time. If you dont believe me ask Pat Riley.
Its ok if you choose to ignore the results of the poll which showed the center spot as our most vunerable spot. I agree with the poll. Nothing against Horford, that is, nothing personal. Hes a decent powerforward.
As Jack Webb would say,” just the facts mame!”
Some times personalities can blind us from the truth. A good GM has to see past popularity and into the facts.
Youve earned the compliments.
Wink
September 8th, 2009
7:54 pm
Let get to training camp & see what we have assembled. I would like to see Gerald Green & Siler added to the Guaranteed 11. Keep West around as a defensive stopper, if Green can’t pan out on defense. I would prefer Green to West, as he is more atheletic, like a smaller version of Josh (some of the same baggage).
It’s sink or swim time for Woodson, let’s see if he has anything else in his bag, other than ISO Joe. Me thinks the veterans he has brought in want stand for it. They all have longer contracts, than he & Joe.
undisputed Champ
September 8th, 2009
8:04 pm
Jody
September 8th, 2009
7:28 pm
Great point! Ditto.
Atl Fan
September 8th, 2009
5:43 pm
Last I heard they arent resigning flip. I guess the GM wanted to spend more money for essentially the same numbers in Crawford.
george
September 8th, 2009
4:18 pm
I like your boldness and to make take a step toward the higher level Dirk is a player who could have an impact. Yes hes got 3-4 good years…the window of the Hawks opportunity to win a championship is about 4-6 years(hopefully we wont do like the braves but win more than one). Im not sure about letting J Smooth out of town. How about Horford, ZaZa and a draft pick for Lopez or Bynum? How about Horford and ZaZa for Dirk? Its would be hard to move ZaZa 6 million dollars salary as a backup 15-20 minute a game role player.
By the way did anyone notice how Lopez dominated Horford In head to head last year? Wow! It was no contest. Thats the difference between a powerforward masquerading as a center and a center.
Astro Joe
September 8th, 2009
8:22 pm
Maybe the Hawks should stop playing until they have a perfect roster and coach. I doubt that anyone here would suggest that we have players 1-12 for a championship run…. but that is true for about 25 other teams, too. Sund has given this nucleus some nice supplemental pieces to see if they can take the next step. If that evolution does not happen, it is likely that both the coach and a member of the nucleus will be working in a different city in 2010-11. Until then, enjoy the journey from NBA after-thought to (at a minimum) consistent post-season participant.
ant banks
September 8th, 2009
8:30 pm
i hope that when the preseason games start, woody doesn’t panick and start playin’ jj 44min per night in all of the preseason games. tryin’ to go undefeated in preseason to impress sund. lol
Sautee
September 8th, 2009
8:59 pm
“By the way did anyone notice how Lopez dominated Horford In head to head last year? Wow! It was no contest. ”
OK, let’s give a look:
11/14 Lopez: 25 points 9 rebounds
Horford: 6 points 11 rebound
Yep, Lopez got the best of Al that game.
11/15 Lopez: 5 points 7 rebounds
Horford: 12 points 6 rebounds
Advantage Al, but not by much
1/2 Lopez: 7 points 11 rebounds
Horford: 10 points 8 rebounds
Advantage Al, but not by much
On 1/30 The Hawks and Nets played, but Al was injured and did not play.
So that’s it. I certainly don’t see TOTAL DOMINATION in those stats, although Lopez 1st game was very good.
Totals for the 3 head to head games: Lopez 37 points, 26 rebounds
Horford 28 points, 25 rebounds.
Total domination it is not. You called it “No contest”????? Really?
I respectfully submit that the numbers say otherwise.
Melvin
September 8th, 2009
9:06 pm
Chris Webber Hawks Fav 5 of all time….
http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2009/09/04/nba_20090903_cwebb5_hawks.nba/
george
September 8th, 2009
9:07 pm
Our problem is we’ve got two young, athletic power forwards(really three as williams could probably play there) and only one spot. I like all our guys. Josh Smith is electric, granted, but so was nique and I watched him for about ten or twelve years frusrate us with possibility. Horford is obviously a power forward playing center, you can get away with that in college but not on this level. He plays hard, no qualms about him, he just can’t match up with the likes of Howard, now Shaq, and other big bodies. Reminds me of when we had laettner playing center briefly. I think both of these guys can be great players, but I don’t think either of those guys is a going to be a bona fide big-time nba scorer. If you looked at our playoff games last year that’s what we were desperately lacking, points, especially in the paint and with our stilted offensive sets. We might be able to contend if we have all five guys averaging 15 -20, might, but that’s why i think taking a gamble and adding someone like nowitaki who can create his own shot and get you 30-40 in may might be worth it.
Ken Strickland
September 8th, 2009
9:48 pm
While it certainly is a lot easier to win a title when you have a dominant center, this idea of needing a dominant center to win a title is crap. Detroit won multiple titles in 2 different era’s without a dominant center, unless you consider Bill Lambeer and Ben Wallace dominant. Only a complete fool would consider either player an inside scoring threat.
What the teams in both era’s had was outstanding coaching and outstanding PG play on both ends of the court. In each case the HC designed an OFF and DEF system around the talents and skills of his players. They didn’t try to force the players to fit their talents and skills into a preconceived system. YOU TAKE OUR CURRENT ROSTER, START A PG WITH COMPLETE PG SKILLS, DEF ABILITY, UPGRADE THE COACHING, THE OFF/DEF SYSTEMS TO REFLECT THE TALENT AND SKILLS OF OUR PLAYERS, AND THE ATLANTA HAWKS WOULD BE PLAYING FOR THE EASTERN CONFERENCE CHAMPIONSHIP.
Big Ray
September 8th, 2009
10:02 pm
Undisputed champ,
“Last I heard they arent resigning flip. I guess the GM wanted to spend more money for essentially the same numbers in Crawford. ”
We know what Flip’s numbers were as a Hawk. However, Crawford hasn’t played a single game as a Hawk yet, so how can you say they provide the same numbers? The only thing you can compare is their stats with their prospective teams last year, and throughout their careers. Hate to tell you this, but Crawford beats Flip hands down. Even the one year Flip got the same kind of minutes as Crawford in a starter’s role (it was for about 25-30 games), he couldn’t average more than roughly 13 ppg (maybe it was close to 14). Jamal has started for every team he’s played for. Flip hasn’t, and when he has, it wasn’t for long. Jamal has shown he can give you anywhere from 17-20 ppg. Flip hasn’t. Sure Flip comes at a fraction of the price, but the same numbers? Not even close, even if you extrapolate (which is pointless, as Flip just isn’t as dangerous a scorer as Jamal is).
Vava74 ,
Come on, now. Josh Smith took more threes than he should, but no way does he take as many as Wallace used to. Josh took 87 three point attempts last year, in 69 games. That’s actually less than 1.3 attempts per game. I’d hardly call that camping out at the arc. He had a total of 849 shot attempts. So, just a hair over 10% of his shot attempts were three pointers. I have to agree that he complains to refs too much, but again, he’s not like Rasheed. Rasheed used to lead the league in technicals or come close to it every year. Josh rarely gets a technical called on him. But he does take himself out of the play by staying behind and complaining.
I realize that Bibby stabilized this team, and JJ does more scoring than anybody else. But you have only to look at the 13 games Smith missed to see the effect of his absence. Also, who gets ragged on more than Smith? People want to color him as non-essential and all that, but who always gets blamed for bad defense? Who do people say “if only he’d take the next step, this team would be great” about? Funny, many want him gone, many blame him for half of what goes wrong, and many place the Hawks ability to become a more dangerous team squarely on his shoulders. Make no mistake, he is a huge part of this team. And in the end, guess what? If things don’t work out, he’ll be the one most likely to go, as he still presents the highest trade value. No matter whether he stays or goes, his impact will be felt.
Ramon ,
That’s actually a very interesting question. Josh’s shooting percentage would suggest he’s taken fewer bad shots than Bibby, Flip, or JJ. However, that’s a bit misleading. He also took many shots closer to the basket than the other guys. To be honest, all four guys take shots in different situations, and for somewhat different reasons.
Flip was brought here to score, and not much else, really. He always had a green light, and he nearly always took it. Sometimes that was because he was the only one on the floor with the right combination of confidence, ability, and Woody’s blessing to get the job done. Other times, well, he was just being himself. There is a reason why the guy’s career assist averages were never impressive, particularly when compared to his turnovers…
Bibby takes almost all outside shots. You won’t see him go to the hole much, and sometimes not at all. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, as he is a deadly outside shooter. But he’s also a guy who can’t get as much separation as he used to. And then there’s the choice of shots. Bibby took 1005 shots last year. 428 of them were three pointers. Okay, that means that 43% of his shots were three pointers. On the one hand, he’s one of the best 3 point shooters on the team. On the other hand, nearly half of his shot attempts were from beyond the arc. And, his FG% overall was 43.5%. Well, there it is. Did he take more bad shots than his cohorts? Hmmmm….
Then there’s Joe. He also shot about 43% from the field. Only 29% of his total field goal attempts were three pointers. But that’s not Joe’s problem, anyway. Joe’s issue is “degree of difficulty”. Joe can get enough separation from defenders most of the time. But he’s also getting doubled most of the time, especially if he hangs onto the ball long enough. Even then, he will work to make something happen. Many of his shots are difficult because they are contested. This is not a guy you leave open, or he will kill you. Most of his shots are from the outside, at various ranges. Thing is, if he went to the hole more often, he probably would have fewer difficult shots. What else would help him? Having someone down low to pass the ball to, who will score reliably….or simply trusting the guys he DOES have down low to do just that….
Finally, there’s Josh. He doesn’t take a lot of treys, but he takes more than any fan (and especially the home crowd) wants him to. Josh’s issue is tri-fold. One, his jumper needs work. Serious work. Lots of practice, and it has to be practicing with good habits, not bad ones. Two, Josh is young and impatient. He’ll try anything once. Or twice. Or 87 times. He needs to play within the flow of the offense. Well, when the offense is flowing, that is. Part of this has to do with things that he is not in control of, but that’s another story. He still has to learn to be patient. Three, his shot selection is an issue. He wants to become a consistent threat from the outside, so he shoots from the outside. As a result, teams still don’t respect him, and he still misses. He has to learn to hurt opposing teams on the inside, and as a slasher first. Then, he can revert to a midrange jumper ( provided he practices it heavily) when they do all they can to shut the lanes down and keep him from the rim.
But as always, there are two sides to a coin. If Josh is to do this, he must also receive the ball in motion, where he can do the most damage, knifing into the lane and finishing with authority. Setting him up on the perimeter to shoot is not a good play call. I’ll never understand why that one was even drawn up…..
Samuel
September 8th, 2009
10:03 pm
Ok, I’m a Mississippi Homer, i’ll admit that. I love everybody from Mississippi except Lo Wright and Eric Dampier.
Cuz, I can definitely feel where you’re coming from also. You are around these guys every day. Your bread and butter depends on rubbing shoulders with the stars. I’m jealous!!
I also can feel you on the injury factor concerning “Big Al” Jefferson but there is no way in hel_ Al Horford is in the same league with Al Jefferson at this point in their careers. Josh maybe but Al Horford, no.
I just showed yall where Al Jefferson is mentioned with the likes of the Best in the league in the three most important stats in basketball. You’re telling me you would rather have #89 over #7.
Yall say that Horford “would” if he was the focal point of the offense. Where has he demonstrated that he can score more than 12 or 13 points per game. He didn’t do it at Fla. He’s not doing it in the Fiba Americas.
Oh but he’s a better defender. How do you say that. Jefferson had more blocks and is stronger on the blocks. Somebody said it best. Cleveland played “monkey in the middle” with both Horford and Josh.
Again, if yall want point to his injuries, do that but in production. Don’t insult me. This man was basically traded for Kevin Garnett.
Big Ray
September 8th, 2009
10:07 pm
Sautee,
I knew you were going to hop all over that.
Can’t blame you, as I don’t remember Lopez beating Horford all over the place all season long. Nice to know you were watching the same thing I was. It must be a DirecTV thing, lol….
Lopez scores more because his team gives him the ball. On the other hand, we don’t give Horford the ball much. In fact, our backcourt routinely took a great many more shots than our frontcourt did. I’m just waiting for it: somebody will suggest that Horford didn’t get the ball because his own team thinks he’s masquerading as a center, and doesn’t deserve it….just wait for it….
It’s amazing what length a person will go to hate on a guy, then say they don’t hate it, but accuse somebody else of hating because they are being equally critical of them. Truly amazing. Not that we know anybody like that or anything…..
Big Ray
September 8th, 2009
10:10 pm
Ant,
Nah, that was last year.
Astro Joe,
I have another way of putting that. Drop our Hawks jerseys and become Laker fans….heh heh heh…that’s about as close to perfect as you’re going to see right about now, and I wouldn’t use that word for that team, even. But you know how it is….fickle fans of summer blogdom…
Astro Joe
September 8th, 2009
10:21 pm
Ray, take a look at the “Advanced” section of the link below. It shows (among other things) the true shooting percentage of the Hawks last year. A simple calculation that attempts to normalize 2-point field goal shooting, 3-point field goal shooting and free throw shooting. Josh, Bibby & JJ are close to each other, with Marvin and Al a little ahead of those 3. It just supports your earlier post that Smith’s shooting isn’t worse than the more experienced players.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ATL/2009.html
Oh and Lopez scares me. Maybe not last year and maybe not this year… but dude will become a very, very, very potent offensive weapon in the not too distant future.
Samuel
September 8th, 2009
10:34 pm
I will be the first to admit that I was wrong on Lopez. I think I got he and his brother mixed up. Dude is a monster. Lopez>Horford.
KevinA
September 8th, 2009
10:42 pm
We just have a group of guys set up for team ball with out a dominate player. What is not to like. If Marvin Al and Josh become more effective and efficient offensive players there is no way they can double JJ who is one of the most dangerous NBA players when left one on one. The JJ and Bibby back up – Crawford comes with the same kind of offensive threat. I see no reason why we can’t be that team.
To realize that talent, can Woody play inside out to free up his all star jump shooting crew.
Melvin
September 8th, 2009
10:43 pm
Aroise,
You can strike Carney off of your Hawks wish list….
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/deep-sixer/76ers_agree_to_terms_with_Carney.html
The Flash
September 8th, 2009
10:44 pm
KEVIN A, I’M NOT TALKING ABOUT HIS DUNKS. hE HAS A QUALITY THAT’S DIFFERNET THAN NIQ. I’M TALKING WHEN HE GLIDES DOWN THE LANE, BRINGS IT UP THE WAY JULIUS MIGHT HAVE, AND JUST WHEN YOU THINK BAMB, HE LOBS IT UP SO IT JUST DROPS IN. OR WHEN HE FINDS A WAY TO SLITHER AND EVERYONE IS BRACED FOR EXPLOSION AND HE IS HIGHER THAN THE CEILING AND STILL DON’T SLAM IT. THERE IS A PART OF THE SHOW THAT THIS KID OWNS, IT IS ALL HIS OWN, LIKE NO OTHER. NONE! IF HE’D JUST SOFTEN THOSE RIBS AND STERUN ON HIS JUMP SHOT, CURL HIS SHOULDERS SOME TOWARDS THE BASKET INSTEAD OF MAKING HIMSELF LIKE AN ERECT FACIMILE OF A PERSON, HE’D HAVE A KILLER MID-SHORT GAME. AS IT IS, NO OTHER WAY FOR ME TO SAY THIS, SMOOTH IS ONE VERY, VERY COOL DUDE THAT YOU PAY TO WATCH AND WILL MISS IF HE’S GONE.
Samuel
September 8th, 2009
10:49 pm
By the way. Only 4 people averaged 20 and 10 last year. Who can name them without looking it up?
undisputed Champ!
September 8th, 2009
10:51 pm
Big Ray
September 8th, 2009
10:02 pm
I don’t know what game you are watching or how you do your math. Flip has clearly shown that if he were to start he can score 17-22 points a game. I won’t waste the time to argue with you about that. Birds used him as a micro-wave vinny Johnson type and he produced. Last year with Atlanta he averaged 24 minutes and produced 12 points. I do believe in a full game he could produce 17-22 points. Not much difference between him and Crawford on that note. Put that under a full game microscope and do the math. I won’t force my view on you. Sund is a little below average as a gm in my book. He’s not a mover or shaker but a timid mama’s boy who did not earn the money so he spends it recklessly.
Sautee
September 8th, 2009
8:59 pm
I had almost forgotten the side of you that causes me to shake my head. The one game you refer to on the second game of the Hawks vs. nets where you post favorable numbers for Horford, why did you leave of the minutes played. I was just hoping that someone would write tickets for those who violate mercilessly the interpretation of stats. Call it” statistic abuse violation”. Those numbers are what they are because Horford played a full game and Lopez a half, further if Lopez had played a full game Horford numbers would have been less. Go back and do a minutes played / production analysis. Head to head Lopez dominates Horford. The final numbers you posted has Lopez out scoring and out rebounding Horford in significantly less the amount of time that Horford was on the floor. Get real would you? Yes, watch the games, Lopez dominated Horford.
george
September 8th, 2009
9:07 pm
Excellent points. Surely it obvious!
Big Ray
September 8th, 2009
10:02 pm
If I’m an opposing coach and I need a basket with Bibby on the floor, I’m going to clear the post and back Bibby down…instant basket. Just keeping it real.
Samuel
September 8th, 2009
10:03 pm
You are right with the Horford Jefferson comparison. I don’t know what game some are watch. I heard a fellow earlier comparing Horford to Robert Parish (the chief!). To me that’s abusive.
niremetal
September 8th, 2009
10:52 pm
Is anybody else watching Nadal-Monfils? Man, I’m just getting tired watching it.
niremetal
September 8th, 2009
10:59 pm
Samuel,
Among players who played enough games to qualify, I can only think of Dwight, Yao, and Duncan.
niremetal
September 8th, 2009
11:00 pm
Oh, and Bosh.
KevinA
September 8th, 2009
11:09 pm
The Flash
You don’t see me griping about Josh. I think he is a tremendous talent that has just scratched the surface. I would guess that he will take over this team next year if not this year. He has always had a little trouble with his handle but you can see the improvement every year. Josh was slowed last year by injury last year, that hurt him and the team. If he is injury free this year look for him to go off. By the way – great post.
Samuel
September 8th, 2009
11:10 pm
Qualify my as_. 20 and 10 is 20 and 10. And no, Duncan wasn’t one, neither was Yao.
undisputed Champ!
September 8th, 2009
11:20 pm
Top 15 centers according to NBA.com
PLAYER NAME, TEAM NAME GP MPG PTS FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT%
1 Al Jefferson , MIN 50 36.7 23.1 9.7-19.5 .497 .0-.1 .000 3.7-5.0 .738
2 Dwight Howard , ORL 79 35.7 20.6 7.1-12.4 .572 .0-.0 .000 6.4-10.7 .594
3 Ming Yao , HOU 77 33.6 19.7 7.4-13.4 .548 .0-.0 1.000 4.9-5.7 .866
4 Shaquille O’Neal , PHX 75 30.0 17.8 6.8-11.2 .609 .0-.0 .000 4.1-6.9 .595
5 Mehmet Okur , UTA 72 33.5 17.0 6.0-12.3 .485 1.2-2.8 .446 3.8-4.6 .817
6 Andrea Bargnani , TOR 78 31.5 15.4 5.5-12.3 .450 1.5-3.7 .409 2.8-3.4 .831
7 Nene Hilario , DEN 77 32.6 14.6 5.6-9.2 .604 .0-.1 .200 3.5-4.8 .723
8 Andrew Bynum , LAL 50 28.9 14.3 5.6-10.0 .560 .0-.0 .000 3.0-4.3 .707
9 Jermaine O’Neal , MIA-TOR 68 29.8 13.3 5.4-11.3 .474 .0-.0 .000 2.6-3.3 .788
10 Emeka Okafor , CHA 82 32.8 13.2 5.3-9.4 .561 .0-.0 .000 2.7-4.5 .593
11 * Brook Lopez , NJN 82 30.5 13.0 5.5-10.3 .531 .0-.0 .000 2.1-2.6 .793
12 Zydrunas Ilgauskas , CLE 65 27.2 12.9 5.3-11.1 .472 .2-.6 .385 2.1-2.7 .799
13 Rasheed Wallace , DET 66 32.2 12.0 4.6-10.9 .419 1.7-4.8 .354 1.2-1.5 .772
14 Chris Kaman , LAC 31 29.7 12.0 5.2-9.8 .528 .0-.0 .000 1.6-2.4 .680
15 * Marc Gasol , MEM 82 30.7 11.9 4.3-8.1 .530 .0-.0 .000 3.4-4.6 .733
niremetal
September 8th, 2009
11:41 pm
Yeah, Sam. Ok. Let’s totally ignore a player’s ability to play more than 80% of his team’s games. That makes a lot of sense.
undisputed Champ!
September 9th, 2009
12:10 am
Samuel
Im sure you mean centers
September 8th, 2009
10:49 pm
By the way. Only 4 people averaged 20 and 10 last year. Who can name them without looking it
just checking in
September 9th, 2009
12:12 am
undisputed Champ!
September 9th, 2009
12:10 am
I think he means at any postion.
niremetal
September 9th, 2009
12:22 am
Let me put it this way, would you rather have a guy who posted A1) 19.3/10.7 for 75 games and/or A2) someone who posted 19.7/9.9 in 77 games; or B1) someone who posted 23/11 for 50 games (thus making himself totally useless for 40% of the season), and B2) 20.8/10.1 for 50 games (same).
A describes Duncan and Yao. B describes Jefferson and Randolph.
Oh, and how many games did each of their teams win? Gee, I wonder if Duncan would have averaged 4ppg more if his runningmates had been Foye and Miller instead of Parker and Manu? Hmmmmmm…
Melvin
September 9th, 2009
12:28 am
Sam, are you sure there are 4 players that avg 20/10 without rounding up their averages??? I know Chris Bosh, Al Jefferson and Zach Randolph but who’s the 4th person???????
Melvin
September 9th, 2009
12:30 am
Okay, I had to find out the answer to my own question…Superman…
jerrywest
September 9th, 2009
12:38 am
Undisputed Champ -
You must know something 30 GMs and 30 coaches don’t know. I have posted about getting Flip here since he was demoted back to Seattle’s bench after Ray Allen came back from his injury. If Flip was as good as Crawford, and he could be hired for cheap, why do you think he hasn’t signed yet. I don’t think all those GMs and coaches are idiots.
jerrywest
September 9th, 2009
12:42 am
its not about how much horford will average. its about whether hawks can defend the paint againd legit bigs with al and josh guarding our paint. if some teams bully us there, we ain’t fighting for championship – ever.
Ariose
September 9th, 2009
12:49 am
Mel, you’re slippin’ lol. Superman shoulda been the first name to come to your mind lol 20 & 14 duh……lol
Big Ray
September 9th, 2009
2:23 am
Undisputed Champ ,
” I don’t know what game you are watching or how you do your math. Flip has clearly shown that if he were to start he can score 17-22 points a game. Put that under a full game microscope and do the math.”
In 2005-2006, Flip played part of the season for the Cavaliers. During which time, he started 25 of 28 games. He averaged 36.7 minutes per game . Guess what his averages were during that stretch, in which he started and played some heavy minutes ? 13.5 points per game on 44.8 % shooting.
In 2007-2008, he played 23 games for Indiana, 17 of which he was a starter. His average? 22.9 minutes per game, and 11 points per game.
Hmm, I guess NBA. com’s math is as bad as mine is. Look it up on NBA.com if you don’t believe me. You’ll have to look him up personally, then look under the category of career stats and totals.
Look at all the numbers he’s put up over the years and tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about again. I tell you what, maybe if you look up the numbers he put up during the 2003-2004 season in which he started 18 games of 69 played for Seattle, you’ll find your 17-22 ppg. Or maybe you’ll find him averaging that much during the 18 games he started for Detroit in 2006-2007. If you do, let me know. Pardon me if I don’t hold my breath.
Furthermore, if Flip has proven that if given a starting job, he can score 17-22 ppg (which he hasn’t), then why hasn’t anybody given him a starting job and let him keep it? Yep, the Hawks used him pretty much the same way every other team has, that he has played for: either off the bench, or as a stop gap. If Flip really had that kind of talent, there’s no way he could be had that cheaply. The stats I posted above clearly show what Flip can and cannot do.
Don’t get me wrong, I like the guy plenty. But you’re wrong about him. And I don’t know which games you were watching. Flip can score like that on occasion. But not all the time. Not by a long stretch. Or he would have by now. Put that under a full game microscope huh? Well how do you like my lab work?
“ Sund is a little below average as a gm in my book. He’s not a mover or shaker but a timid mama’s boy who did not earn the money so he spends it recklessly. ”
Well, everybody has a right to their opinion. I can think of some movers and shakers whose “moves and shakes” haven’t panned out.
1. Jim Paxson signed Ben Wallace to the Bulls for $60 million a few years back. Stupid move.
2. Mark Cuban traded away super guard Devin Harris and some other guys for Jason Kidd. Yeah, that’s going to get them a championship. Any day now.
3. Steve Kerr went and got Shaq, adding him to a team he just didn’t fit on. Result? Phoenix doesn’t even make the playoffs.
4. Ed Stefanski breaks the bank for Elton Brand. Sixers bomb out of the gate, Mo Cheeks gets fired, and Brand does what he’s done before: got injured and laid out for the year. Brilliant move, and they still have to figure out how to the game work with him and Iguodala. Just wait until this year when Eddie Jordan tries to force Brand into the Princeton offense.
5. Isaiah Thomas. Loved him as a player. As a GM? Moved, shaked, and baked himself and his team.
Movers and shakers. Hah. I’ll give it up to Danny Ainge for bringing Boston the second two part of the Big Three, and Mitch Kupchak for stealing Gasol. Beyond that, it’s a crap shoot.
As for this, I know you didn’t address this to me, but you made me laugh harder than I have all day:
“ I was just hoping that someone would write tickets for those who violate mercilessly the interpretation of stats. Call it” statistic abuse violation”.
Now THAT is one “law” you would never want to go into effect. Everybody abuses stats or uses them to bolster an argument. Some are much better at it than others. You, my friend, would be labeled a habitual violator, have a suspended blogging license, and held in contempt of court.
The blog crimes unit would have to charge you with Felony Statistical Abuse, Aggravated Statistical Misinterpretation, and several counts of False Report of Statistical Abuse , just to get started.
But….it’s not a law.
Okay, after all that, I’m expecting, and would be mildly disappointed if you don’t 1) Post as me and say I’m gay or somehow in love with Woody, 2) Call me a Klansman, or 3) Refer to me as a member of your favorite love-to-hate-’em group, the infamous Bubba Crew.
Big Ray
September 9th, 2009
2:28 am
Undisputed champ,
“If I’m an opposing coach and I need a basket with Bibby on the floor, I’m going to clear the post and back Bibby down…instant basket. Just keeping it real.”
Yeah, I agree. Id’ do the same thing. Especially since Woody’s switching defense all too often has Bibby playing at the back of the zone…..
Big Ray
September 9th, 2009
2:33 am
KevinA,
I’d be happy if Josh took over his own game. He’s not taking over anything until he takes a couple of LEAPS in maturity. After that, look out basketball world. But, I don’t know if that day is coming. One can hope, though.
Astro Joe ,
Thanks for the link. Good info there. As for Lopez, you’re right. He’s a soon-to-be star. Which is why I keep trying to tell people that Jersey is NOT going to give him up. You don’t get legit 7-foot centers with skills (and good health) every day. Or hell, every few years, at that. Jersey will build around HIM, not Devin Harris, if push comes to shove.
Big Ray
September 9th, 2009
2:34 am
Not that Bibby playing at the back of the zone is actually Woody’s fault. Bibby doesn’t guard his position all that well. And thus….back of the zone, where he can occasionally step in the way of a pass, but is prone to being backed down in the paint.
Big Ray
September 9th, 2009
2:34 am
Man, midnight shift sucks sometimes. Even on my days off I’m up….
Ariose
September 9th, 2009
2:45 am
Ray, funny stuff lol. I would keep you company I didnt have class in the morning….why am I still up? Oh, yeah,damn roach in my apmnt…he got away from me…I wanna get him so bad…I know he’s still here somewhere…oh well. It’s time for some shuteye. Good night twitterworld!!!
??? I mean AJC!!!!
Ariose
September 9th, 2009
2:46 am
*If I didnt have class….yup its time for sleep lol.
Mitch C
September 9th, 2009
6:09 am
The Hawks have turned into a good, solid, NBA team. This is a team that should win 50 or more games, and hopefully be no less than the number four seed again.
The question for the Hawks really is whether they can compete with the “big boys” of the East, Boston or Orlando. Part of me thinks the Hawks have a chance to make the Eastern Conference Finals with the improvements they’ve made. Another part of me knows better, and says they would never get past a second round matchup with either Boston or Orlando.
I think this will be a good season for the Hawks. 50 wins should be a lock unless there are major injuries. As to what happens in the playoffs, we’ll just have to wait and see.
vava74
September 9th, 2009
6:12 am
Big Ray,
I may have exaggerated a bit, but I did mention “extraordinary help defense” before I played out my criticism of his game.
I acknowledge that J-Smoove did not jack up as many treys as Rasheed (thank god since he can’t hit them), but I really feel that he sometimes he gets into a “Rasheed impersonation mode” with his stupid treys, his complaints and is lack of rebounding or interior game.
People talk about Woody being the culprit for his treys since J-Smoove is often parked in the outside, however, he should drive the ball to the basket (he certainly can absorb a hit and still launch a shot) or drive and pop taking advantage of his jumping ability to launch midrange shots over the immediate defender.
I am sure that Woody instructs him to either pass, or drive and not to shoot from outside.