Still talking about Joe!

I promise, this is the last time you'll have to see this picture of Joe Smith wearing a Cavaliers uniform here. Next time, he'll be wearing the same uniform as Josh Smith.

I promise, this is the last time you will have to view this picture of Joe Smith. Next time, he'll be in the same uniform as Josh Smith.

HAWKSVILLE - More than a month has passed since the Hawks’ interest in Joe Smith was revealed to the world in this space.

I doubt any of us thought it would take this long for the resolution to come. I mean, school has already started. The Michael Jackson autopsy is done (someone’s going to jail for this one). The NFL season is upon us. Cash for Clunkers has come and gone. College football is just days away.

And still, we wait for Joe Smith to be signed.

But I believe the day has come. Today has to be Joe Smith Day in Hawksville. It has to be. If things play out the way they are supposed to my name will be intact – check the Twitter feed for my name-change challenge – and we should be able to move on from this saga and back to whatever else we amuse ourselves with this time of year.

And speaking of amusement, if you haven’t seen this extrapolation of the Hawks’ ownership situation, you need to. I understand how someone might try and make the move from “we’re not selling” to where this article took the conversation, but it seems like a stretch even to me. And we all know I’m not afraid to go off the deep end every now and then.

While we’re on the subject of the deep end, I had a great seat at the Dream-Sparks game Sunday at Philips Arena. It allowed me to view the crowd from just about every direction. Josh Smith, Billy Knight, Shelden WilliamsLorenzen Wright and many others were in the building. Josh has shed some weight since I last saw him. He said about 10 pounds. It was noticeable. He looked slimmed down from when I saw him working out in the gym at McEachern High in early July. He said he’s been working all summer on every facet of his game, particularly his mid-range game (those jumpers everyone wants him to take instead of the 3-pointers that cause so much cringing). He’s worked out mostly here in Atlanta, which is a departure from previous summers, when he spent most of his time in Houston.

Wright, who finished last season on the roster in Cleveland, is in a unique situation. He’s job-hunting, so to speak, and an intriguing possibility for the Hawks since he still has a residence here in town. Another veteran big man in that same situation earlier this summer, Theo Ratliff, was also at the game Sunday. The Spurs snapped him up before the Hawks could get to him. But Wright is the kind of physical, veteran big that could fit exactly what the Hawks need in a 12th or 13th man for this upcoming season.

My philosophy is that a team can never have too many big men. It’s clear the Hawks’ cupboard isn’t overflowing in that department, and hasn’t for some time. But now is the time to stock up, especially with every contender in the Eastern Conference loaded up front.

Some of you probably chuckled when you read that the Celtics scooped up Shelden. You were probably thinking back to his days with the Hawks and assuming that he’s an odd fit there. Not me. I think it was a shrewd move for the Celtics to go out and find a serviceable big body for an excellent price, even if he doesn’t play a whole lot this season. It always pays to have that part of your team secured.

If you don’t believe that, scan the rosters in Boston, Orlando and Cleveland and start counting big men. You can go five deep on each team. The Celtics start with Kevin Garnett, Rasheed Wallace and Kendrick Perkins and round out the rotation with Big Baby Davis and Shelden. Orlando starts with Dwight Howard, Rashard Lewis (who is a bit of a tweener but forces one of your bigs to guard him at 6-10) and Brandon Bass and round out the rotation with Marcin Gortat and Ryan Anderson. Cleveland starts with Shaquille O’Neal, Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Anderson Varejao and rounds out the rotation with JJ Hickson, Darnell Jackson and Leon Powe (not to mention a dude named LeBron James who can swing over and play minutes at power forward if ever needed).

The Hawks enter the season with a group that starts with Josh Smith, Al Horford, Zaza Pachulia and round out the rotation with Joe Smith and Randolph Morris.

Again, the more quality big bodies (you can debate the quality of one guy over the other all day long) on your roster the better.

428 comments Add your comment

Cowa

August 25th, 2009
1:56 pm

Sekou, thanks for the update. Before, you mentioned Petro as a big the Hawks were looking at as well, but you don’t mention him here. Is he on the back burner now, and are teh Hawks headed after another big (I’m ignoring the LoWright reference above, as I’m assuming that one will be available for a while)?

JSS

August 25th, 2009
1:58 pm

No two words to entertaining LoWright: “He** NO!!!

Willie Coyote

August 25th, 2009
2:03 pm

Add Siler and Hunter to that mix and your front line should have adequate depth. since those two guys are still raw, they won’t be counted on for major minutes but could be available for spot duty here and there.

Stevengilley15

August 25th, 2009
2:08 pm

Exactly. As I was saying in your colleague’s Mark Bradley’s blog, we needed a player like Joe Smith to add a body to bang with. Not to mention he has a jumper and can spread the floor. He is not elite or heaven sent but he helps our front-line!

Good news on Josh Smith. We are expecting improvements each year!!

I.MUS WRITE

August 25th, 2009
2:08 pm

We better not sign Blo Wright……. 7ft baffon/practical joker
Joe Smith ??? Give that man an ultimatum,sign this contract or we’re pulling it off the table u dam premadona. Jeezuz we’re courting Joe like he’s KG or sumthing.

Here we go again…Smoove is slim and he’s putting in work on his midrange game yada yada yada, I’ll bet his first shot of the season is a long 3 that will tear a whole in the back board WELL DAM!!!!!!
Dont believe the hype man he will be basicly the same player- Athletic freak with below average fundamentals………

Did I mention HELL NO TO BLO WRIGHT

Stevengilley15

August 25th, 2009
2:11 pm

Willie thats true but if Woody doesnt develop, trust and play the bigs whats the point of having them..?

Ernest

August 25th, 2009
2:13 pm

Given the 5th big man would get a fair share of DNP-CDs unless there were opportunities for mop up minutes, LoWright could be a good addition. He knows the players and reportedly was a good locker room guy. He’d be more expensive the a Siler but at least you know what you are getting.

If the Hawks could sign Siler and send him to the D-League, that gives them the opportunity to better evaluate him against NBA lite talent. I think there are still too many unknowns about him.

doc

August 25th, 2009
2:13 pm

please sekou, say it aint so. popcorn man back to suck more moolah from this franchise. still see his sorry azz laughing at the hawks as the cavs tore them apart under manned and all. no class, not professional enough to get it done the first time as a hawk except showing his azz by cutting up zaza, and roughing up rookies by pouring popcorn in two rookie cars and telling horford he couldnt ride an elevator. if he took some of that moxie on the court then fine. unfortunately, on the court, he went as soft as his popcorn does when it sits out for more than 2 minutes.

cp

August 25th, 2009
2:29 pm

Lo Wright? Are we calling up Priest Lauderdale too? Just say no to L-O. Once again give me Joe Smith, Siler, Hunter, and Gerald Green. I know Mario is the hometown kid but if he hasn’t added a jumper or learned to dribble, then give me the guy in Green who has shown he can put up double figures in points if given the opportunity.

Willie Coyote

August 25th, 2009
2:39 pm

**Stevengilley15 **, I hear you. It has been a given these past few years that Woodson won’t play his full compliment of players (some are benched justifiably I might add) but here’s to hoping things change and people learn from past mistakes. Woody needs to give people a chance and when these guys get chances, they need to make a statement and not dog it (RandMo).

Brownie

August 25th, 2009
2:43 pm

Bring back Koncak!

Melvin

August 25th, 2009
2:45 pm

Sekou,

Tell Sund to Just say NO to Lorenzo “Popcorn Popper” Wright. Give me Stromile Swift before him….

blonju

August 25th, 2009
2:55 pm

Please don’t tell me Lorenzen could be on our team!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (again) he has no bball skills at all – he’s just a large man – Big Ups to Joe Smith though – he will definitely help this team .. seiko, what about Sean Marks or Melvin Ely ?? i’m sure they’d both sign for the vet-min – and they’re much more nba capable when compared to l-wright or RandMo… Thanks for the updates as always & we’ll hold you to the name change if Joe Smith isn’t inked today + what will we call Joe Smith when he’s here? can’t call him “Joe” or “Smith” – he needs a nickname..

Mystikal

August 25th, 2009
2:57 pm

Hey SEKOU,

From your ears, any chance of us signing Siler and sending him to the D-league? Or think that would be too much of an unnecessary expense. I also think we need a backup small forward but know after first 10 rotation spots hardly anyone will see the court. Oh yeah any leads on the probability of them trading Mo and Rand for a player? I believe you mentioned that a week or two ago.

Melvin

August 25th, 2009
3:03 pm

blonju,

Maybe we should yell “Yo Joe” (in the spirit of GI JOE) everytime Joe Smith does something well. Better yet, maybe we should call him GI Joe an Atlanta Hawk hero. Since he would be the 1st quality FA signing for the Hawks since Joe Johnson.

The Truth

August 25th, 2009
3:20 pm

Sekou

I assume when this drama is finally over, you will have acquired the knowledge to explain what exactly took so long. I can’t what to hear the details. I mean did signing JJ take this long? I can’t remember; but signing Joe Smith to a vet minimum contract seems unusually long compared to his peers. What was (is) the issue; did he really want to play here; was it money, longer term, or things like relocation package or complimentary tickets to give to family members? Please, inquiry minds want to know.

blonju

August 25th, 2009
3:23 pm

G.I. JOOOOOOOOOOOE, a real atlanta hawk hero!

swatguy

August 25th, 2009
3:24 pm

Jones, can Marvin swing to PF(he’s bigger than Josh and maybe Al too) in a pinch? Will JLucas the younger find himself at training camp? Are the assistants set?

SWAT Native

August 25th, 2009
3:25 pm

Sekou,

I also went to the Sparks game Sunday (my first WNBA game) and had a great time. I sat a few rows behind Theo Ratliff but didn’t get a chance to say anything to him.

I just realized that if the Hawks sign Joe Smith, I guess both he and Smoove would have to have their full names on their jerseys. As for Lo Wright, I guess I maybe could look forward to seeing all the fine suits he’d wear on the Hawks bench all year.

Dan

August 25th, 2009
3:28 pm

I really would not have a problem signing Wright. He may not be that great, but he could eat some minutes for our frontline. Be nice to see the Hawks sign him (or someone like him, or both) and have some decent depth on the team for once.

No more wasting roster space with the Thomas Gardners of the world. Need guys that can at least go out on the floor and play 5-10 minutes a game, if needed. Wright could handle that..

BA

August 25th, 2009
3:28 pm

Kind of had a feeling that doc wouldnt go for a reunion tour with the Wright Stuff.

O'Brien

August 25th, 2009
3:34 pm

Sekou,

Do you think the Hawks would prefer LoWright instead of Petro or one of the Collins brothers?

And is there any news/plans about the Hawks signing somebody who can play some minutes at SF? (Gerald Green, Rodney Carney are 2 that come to mind). I know that we have Mo Evans, but he is only 6′5″.

Samuel

August 25th, 2009
3:36 pm

I glad to see Josh has lost weight. he really didn’t look good with that extra weight.

Anybody>Lo Wright. Please, let’s not go backwards.

The Truth

August 25th, 2009
3:38 pm

About Siler; how many here have actually seen him play? We are talking about D-league with him already without seeing how well he match-up in training camp or even pre-season? He might surprise us. Since you can’t teach size, based on his profile he’s a load. He might exceed expectations. I, for one, will hold judgment until I actually see him play. However, it is a valid point to make that more playing time will only make him better, but if this kid is special, LET HIM SHINE.

Sekou Smith

August 25th, 2009
3:45 pm

I was just using Lorenzen as an example. I wasn’t necessarily advocating that the Hawks sign Lo Wright, though, it wouldn’t bother me if they did.

Pertro has been on the backburner for so long, I just honestly forgot about him. The Hawks better not wait too long, or someone else will grab him.

doc

August 25th, 2009
3:50 pm

yeah BA the only thing i want of rens are the diamond in his ears that go with his purty suits. could retire.

BA where you hangin bro?

JSS

August 25th, 2009
3:51 pm

All LoWright has to do is cross the Phillips Arena threshold and the IR light will start flashing! That fool has suckered us twice before! NEVER! NEVER! NEVER! NEVER EVER AGAIN!!!

Mystikal

August 25th, 2009
4:02 pm

Lock up Joe Smith

Gimme Johan Petro, Gerald Green, and Garret Siler

Good to go!

terrell barron

August 25th, 2009
4:44 pm

So we might go from Joe Smith to Lorenzen “Mr.Popcorn” Wright? Oh hell no!! ? And as far as Josh Smith goes,”losing weight and working on his jumper”?? Is he planning on moving to sf? Post moves, and more post moves if you ask me. Glad he’s in the gym though. And Shellhead’s got some nerve coming to Phillips. He stole from us for years. I dont care if Candace was in the building or not. haha

Melvin

August 25th, 2009
4:48 pm

Mystical,
I like your lineup. Petro, Green and Siler…

Let’s get Joe Smith aka “GI Joe” signed ASAP…. Get it done Sund…

kirkinga

August 25th, 2009
4:49 pm

I really really hope that Joe Smith doesn’t turn out to be the Raphael Furcal, or Ken Griffey of the Hawks’ offseason. It shouldn’t take this long to sign anyone if he wants to play here and there is an agreement on salary.

Do we know, for sure, why he has remained unsgned after the announcement? Did he feel the announcement premature? Is there another team that he still hasn’t come to closure with? Something seems irregular and I hope Hawk fans will become privy to why that is the case.

I will never, ever again, celebrate a signing, until it is just that-a signing. No more celebrating on “news” of a signing.

Meanwhile, the season is not that far away.

Go Hawks!!

Melvin

August 25th, 2009
4:52 pm

Terrel,

If Candance was your wife, you would have been in the stands two. Especially if she’s the bread winner. Wouldn’t bother me to be a traveling husband..lol

terrell barron

August 25th, 2009
4:54 pm

Melvin, Shellhead needs to have his azz in Beantown working on his game, or lacktherof. I feel ya though.

terrell barron

August 25th, 2009
4:57 pm

And Melvin, Sheldon has probably made just as much $ as she has. They make chump change in the WNBA. She’s got him in endorsements though.

Ken Strickland

August 25th, 2009
5:03 pm

I see Smoove decided not to continue working on his inside gm with Olajuwon. It makes perfect sense though. What good is having inside moves if your OFF has you floating around on the perimeter on clearouts and ISO’s. So why waste the time and money working on something you’re not going to get a chance to consistently use. I’m very interested in seeing how much of an improvement we’ll see from his midrange OFF, and if he’ll incorporate more bank shots.

I really do believe Teague and Crawford will get substantial mins, and as such, will influence the teams overall style of play. Their speed, quickness, versatility, penetrating and shooting ability will also improve our halfcourt OFF, as it were, and give us more options when we have to resort to ISO’s and one on one. Bringing our top 6 players back, adding Teague, Crawford and JSmith, along with the organic improvement we’re certain to see, will all contribute to making us a much better team this yr. I even think we’ll get a much better overall coaching job from Woodson.

Melvin

August 25th, 2009
5:08 pm

Terrell,

But she is the face of the WNBA and praised by many. Shell, may have made more money up front but she may surpass him over their careers. With her popularity, she more than likely wear the pants in that household…lol

Stating the Obvious

August 25th, 2009
5:12 pm

Melvin,

Most every married man knows that just because you bring home the bacon doesn’t mean you’re the one wearing the pants.

terrell barron

August 25th, 2009
5:13 pm

I disagree Melvin. My wife makes more and is definitely more popular than I am, but I still wear the pants. Most of the time, at least. lol!!

terrell barron

August 25th, 2009
5:14 pm

And Melvin, the #face of the WNBA” is nothing more than being the face of the UFL.

The Truth

August 25th, 2009
5:27 pm

So Shell doen’t wear the pants and is getting used,

So where is that Bill Withers tune:

I-I and I, wanna spread the news
That if it feels this good getting used
Oh, you just keep on using me
Until you use me up

A Tribe Called Quest

August 25th, 2009
5:36 pm

“The Spurs snapped him up before the Hawks could get to him”

B*llsh*t.

Not once did Hawks even pursue him. He was available for plenty of time

Stating the Obvious

August 25th, 2009
5:42 pm

A Tribe Called MORON,

If you think he would have picked the Hawks over the Spurs (where he’ll play significant minutes on a team with no true center), I’ll have some of what you’re smoking.

And if Sekou is so full of b*llsh*t, why do you bother coming here and following him on Twitter?

darrell starks

August 25th, 2009
5:51 pm

DAM DAM DAM!!!!!!!!!!!
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!

doc

August 25th, 2009
5:52 pm

maybe someone can call out nire by trashing the other joe as quickly as rod comes out to play with comments about marvin.

darrell starks

August 25th, 2009
5:57 pm

ALL THIS JOE STUFF GOT STOP SHAWTY.
GO HAWKS!!!!!

jerrywest

August 25th, 2009
5:57 pm

Josh needs to realize that the most important stat for him is rebounds. He can be an all star if he focuses on that.

darrell starks

August 25th, 2009
6:01 pm

I GUEST JOE SMITH IS AND NBA GREAT PLUS TOP 50 BEST OF ALL TIME.
GO JOE SMITH !!!!!!!!!

DJ_Blueice

August 25th, 2009
6:18 pm

The Hawks waited to long to roll the dice to to get a quality big.The thing is that every team in the East had improved greatly and in order for us to improve, we need to sign players that can actually play, not just fill up a roster. We don’t need anymore has beens and never was. Joe Smith is a good move because he can score and help spread the floor. Gerald Green is still young and very athletic and can score. I don’t know why he isn’t already signed. Petro is better than Wright any day. And sign Siler already. We can contend but if we don’t have anyone behind or starters that can play quality ball, then we will be burned out come playoff time again. Our starters play too many minutes during the season. I wish the front office would use their brains a lot more. Damn pay me to get it right!!!!

rainman

August 25th, 2009
6:27 pm

Sekou — you’ve put yourself on the line and we all have added Joe to the roster. I think the other players will call him ‘old man’ or just ‘Joe’.

A couple of questions:
– This ownership thing is the never ending nightmare — I guess it’s all about green with no commitment or ability to achieve a championship. Do you see any way out of this morass?

– I feel ya on the depth in the hole. Do you know Wright? Do you think he could hold his own in spot duty? Assuming Joe is onboard, name the two other 4-5 players you would like to see on the roster — including FA’s and developmental players like Siler and Morris.

– In your opinion, is there less than a 5% chance of a substantial trade occurring?

– OK, so you know Josh — If he’s going to be the PF, maybe he should have moved the 10 lbs. to his upper body and base. Would you be willing to tell us how you think he would like to be utilized? Does he see himself more as a 4 or a 3 – or a hybrid?

Hoops

August 25th, 2009
6:42 pm

Sekou Jones,

It’s 6:42PM and there is NO NEWS about the Hawks signing Joe Smith. Does that mean that your name is now Sekou Jones?

Sekou Smith

August 25th, 2009
6:48 pm

rainman,

I see a way out of the ownership “morass” as you put it. Don’t know if anyone else does. Money time is coming. Someone, Belkin or the others, will have to put cash on the table to either stay in or buy out. Then and only then will this thing end. And thanks to the most recent court ruling, Money Day will be here sooner rather than later.

Lorenzen was useful in a similar role a couple years ago when the Hawks used his hard fouls to bother a younger and leaner Dwight Howard. Don’t know if he fits the bill now, but he couldn’t hurt the cause. As for the other two I’d take on the roster, I’d go with Siler and Petro (from the limited pool we’d be working with).

I’d say there is a less than 5 percent chance of a substantial trade happening before training camp, based on what I’ve gathered.

Josh is a hybrid (like 80 percent of the other PFs in the league) and needs to simply be deployed as a game-changing shot-blocker and rebounder that can slash his way to 17 points a night. I’ve never understood the Hawks’ dilemma with Josh. It’s the same role he’d play on just about any other team in the league, but for whatever reasons he’s never been used in that way here.

Sekou Smith

August 25th, 2009
6:49 pm

Gimme a few minutes longer Hoops. Don’t throw my name away just yet. Ha. How about 15 more minutes. :)

Ken Strickland

August 25th, 2009
6:57 pm

Some of you act like a team only has to decide it wants to sign a certain player and that player is obligated to sign. Some players have made it clear to certain teams/GM’s that they’re not interested in signing with them. Since Theo Ratliff has already done one tour of duty with the Hawks, he might not be interested in doing a 2nd. We know JPrizybills and RWallace have that attitude towards the Hawks. None of us can say whether a team has made an attempt to sign a player or not. If it’s not published, we don’t know, although some like to present their opinions as fact.

rainman

August 25th, 2009
7:00 pm

I didn’t mean the Spirit vs. the Belkins thing — I meant Gearon’s statement that he could be bought. You remember the deal when a gal is asked if she will do it for $20 – and the answer is NO!!, but when she is offered a million bucks – the answer is YES!! A ho is a ho.

Blast

August 25th, 2009
7:03 pm

Nice piece, Sekou. Thanks for keeping us in the loop. Only thing missing is that Joe Smith has inked his name on a contract. And I really second you on never having too many big men on your team.

Good to know Josh is working on his overall game. Post moves, mid-range jumpers, his handle, and free throws. Looking for him to have a mega season coming up!

Please, please, please. NOT Lorenzen Wright! Just for the fact that he was laughing at Hawks when the Cavs were putting a beating on us in the 2nd round. Dude was straight up whiling out! Very unprofessional. I’ve never been impressed with his game either. All he gives you is 6 fouls. Anybody but L Wright!

I’m really not sweating the fact that Joe Smith has still not signed. Maybe it was a rumor, but Sekou sounds confident. I’m cool because this is Sund’s MO. Last off-season, he didn’t sign Flip and MO till late. So long as he gets his man, does it matter how long it took? I know fans are antsy, though, and I hear ya.

Go Hawks! 2009-2010, Best Season Ever!

doc

August 25th, 2009
7:09 pm

maybe this thing will go down pacific coast time.

rainman

August 25th, 2009
7:11 pm

Sekou – I’m with ya all the way about Josh being a game-changing shot blocker and rebounder that will slash his way to 17 points a night — the question was — Is this the way Josh sees himself? And how would you like to see his minutes divided between 4 and 3, and how do you think he would like his minutes divided?

jerrywest

August 25th, 2009
7:35 pm

Sekou can keep his name. Check realgm.com

The Atlanta Hawks have signed veteran power forward Joe Smith to a contract, it was announced by Executive Vice President and General Manager Rick Sund.

“Joe’s acquisition provides us with a solid complement to our frontcourt,” said Sund. “Not only does he bring years of experience to our team, but his versatility gives our coaching staff a player who can play multiple positions and an individual who will provide tremendous leadership in the locker room.”

Show me state

August 25th, 2009
7:45 pm

I’m glad it’s official Go Hawks!!!! http://www.nba.com/hawks/

Astro Joe

August 25th, 2009
7:59 pm

Joe Smith is in and Astro Joe is back. Sund did what was needed to be done, he brought in front court depth. He fixed the largest pot hole and he did it with a quality player at a great price. And Marvin is back with a long-term deal. He could sign the Pep Boys to complete the roster at this point.

Daddy Long Long

August 25th, 2009
7:59 pm

Joe Joe welcome to Hawklanta!

Melvin

August 25th, 2009
8:01 pm

Welcome Joe Smith aka “GI Joe” and welcome back Astro. Good job Sund..

The Truth

August 25th, 2009
8:02 pm

Samuel

August 25th, 2009
8:05 pm

Yea Rain,

I think it’s Josh, not the Hawks. Pretty much everybody sees that but the man himself. Good work by “MY BOY” Rick Sund. Joe Smith is solid. I’d much rather have him than Solo.

Why sign Lo Wright for 5-10 minutes a game. Why not give that spot to a youngster with potential to develop into a real player. We don’t need his “ZOOT SUIT wearing, garbage game here. We’re trying to develop a new image around these parts. No more Scrubbs.

ILL-logical

August 25th, 2009
8:16 pm

Congratulations to the organization; Mr. Sund and Joe Smith! Here’s hoping that the coming season is one that is successful on many levels including on the court. Both the team and the town deserve the very best. Oh, and to Mr Jon-er Smith- thank you for all you do.

ILL-logical

August 25th, 2009
8:19 pm

“It’s the same role he’d play on just about any other team in the league, but for whatever reasons he’s never been used in that way here.”

The reasons are spelled Michael Dean Woodson.

The Truth

August 25th, 2009
8:27 pm

What I particularly like about Joe Smith being in the rotation is that he compliments what Josh lacks which is a jump shot. We should see more consistent scoring from our frontline with him added to the roster. It will be interesting see the impact Joe Smith will have on Josh Smith. It could be positive but it could also be negative; only time will tell. I hope Josh doesn’t try an emulate Joe Smith by trying to prove that he can hit jumpers. Clearly, the key to this tandem working together is going to be (yours truly) WOODY.

jerrywest

August 25th, 2009
8:32 pm

(Crawford+JoeSmith+Teague) >>>>>>>> (Flip + Solo+ Acie)

(Horford+Josh+Marvin) of 09-10 >>> (Horford+Josh+Marvin) of 08-09

(Bibby+Mo+Zaza+JJ) of 09-10 = (Bibby+Mo+Zaza+JJ) of 08-09

Woody of 09-10 > Woody of of 08-09

Sund of 09-10 > Sund of of 08-09

A$G of 09-10 >>>>> ASG of of 08-09

Sekou with Twitter in 09-10 >>>>> Sekou without Twitter in 08-09

UGA

August 25th, 2009
8:34 pm

Great SIGN!!
Welcome aboard Joe!

Najeh Davenpoop

August 25th, 2009
8:35 pm

I would rather have Luke Schenscher than Lorenzen at this point.

rainman

August 25th, 2009
8:44 pm

At this point, I see no upside in downgrading Woody.

doc

August 25th, 2009
8:45 pm

welcome back my friend astro. looking forward to smiling a lot this season. just hope you arent doing your rose colored glasses talking about woody in 6 months. heh heh if so nothing but expectations lost.

doc

August 25th, 2009
8:46 pm

id rather bring back christian laetner than rens.

truly1

August 25th, 2009
8:56 pm

Ok lets look at the minutes break down. This is what I would do
PG Bibby 28-32 teague 12-14 crawford 2-4
SG joe jo 32 crawfo 16
SF marvin 34 mo evan 10 joe jo 4
PF josh smith 36 joe smith 10
C horford 36 Zaza 14
These minutes really depend on whos hot on a given night, injuries and foul trouble which the hawks bigs are in all most every other game because bibby cant D up.

The Truth

August 25th, 2009
9:05 pm

Hoops

August 25th, 2009
9:13 pm

Brad E

August 25th, 2009
9:14 pm

As usual; Sekou is asleep at the wheel. Hawks have already signed Joe Smith.

Samuel

August 25th, 2009
9:21 pm

Pedrag Drobnjak>Lo Wright

Mike is back

August 25th, 2009
9:27 pm

Great job Sund…Welcome to the team Joe!!!!!

Welcome back Astro Joe.

…and Go Sileeeeeeeeeeer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Melvin

August 25th, 2009
9:35 pm

Brad E,

Sekou wrote this article around 7:30 and it hasn’t appear on the Hawks page for some reason yet….

http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta-hawks-sign-joe-123695.html

cp

August 25th, 2009
9:44 pm

About time. Now lets get a backup sf in here. Call up Gerald Greens agent and get the kid a two year deal. Fill out the bench with Hunter and Siler so we can get this season started. Might be the best team on paper that we have had in a long time.

Pig Miller > Lo Wright

doc

August 25th, 2009
10:08 pm

brad e never woke up in this life time. dude sekou broke it on twitter yesterday you friggin idiot.wake up or keep your night mares to yourself.

doc

August 25th, 2009
10:12 pm

cool it went down 4:30 pcst

Melvin

August 25th, 2009
10:14 pm

calm down doc, calm down….

hawksfan

August 25th, 2009
10:20 pm

THANK GOD josh smith lost some weight it was noticeable that his weight was affecting his blocks

mudfoot

August 25th, 2009
10:23 pm

go ahead and put us down for the eastern conference finals…we got joe smith!!! clev., boston, and orlando’s arses is in trouble now!!

“i don’t know alot of joes, but the hawks have two of them. woody knows joes my friend!”

JSS

August 25th, 2009
10:27 pm

Co-sign Poop!!! Co-sign Doc!!! Co-OMG Sign!! It’s Astro Joe (The Darkside has been banished!!) My cell phone has been buzzing but I slept through it… Hey Zurich has worn me out (LITERALLY)!!! How could one man alienate HAWK WORLD like LoWright has? N-O L-O!!!
It’s 4:30, I’m going back to sleep!!! See ya!!!

The Truth

August 25th, 2009
10:27 pm

Sekou got an interesting answer out of Joe Smith as to why he picked the Hawks over The Cavs:

“Ultimately, it boiled down to the best role and best situation for me,” Smith said. “I think this was a perfect fit. We have a lot of young talent and a lot of guys that can go out on any given night and play well. But you still need a veteran on that team when things are going wrong that can be that voice.

“I’m excited about being that voice and helping transform all this talent into a consistent winner.”

This sounds like a player who also has coaching aspirations. In Cleveland, he just would have been a number. Maybe that is what was taking so long. Maybe Sund, Woody and Joe Smith were discussing an assistant coaching or consultant opportunity when his career is up; just a thought.

JSS

August 25th, 2009
10:28 pm

Isiah Rider>Lo Wright (Hmmmmm, that might be a stretch!!!

Jo Bling

August 25th, 2009
10:31 pm

Nice move for the Hawks and Sund. I just spent about 30 minutes emailing back and forth with my brother and brother in law. They were arguing the Celtics, Cavs and Magic all had better offseasons than the Hawks. I was arguing that it was probably true until a short time ago. The Hawks’ moves this summer have been very strategic. I don’t think you can say the same thing about the signings of Shaq, Rasheed and Vince (and Shelden). And the Magic lost Turkoglu. I like what the Hawks are doing – have for three-plus years. Joe Smith is a nice, strategic, addition.

As for Josh, he can lose 10 pounds but that’s not going to make any more of those 25-foot three pointers go down. Losing 10 pounds isn’t going to stop him from ruining fast breaks with boneheaded passes 10 feet from where they should be. Losing 10 pounds isn’t going to help him shoot free throws in crunch time. The guy is a superfreak, but his deficiencies aren’t in his waistline, their in his head. Maybe, though, losing some weight is an indication that he’s growing up a little. I keep hoping . . .

doc

August 25th, 2009
10:43 pm

melvin you got my back son, bring on the season bro.

UGA

August 25th, 2009
10:50 pm

The Hawks need one more BIG man. Petro or Collins would be fine. Collins would be a big bruiser and Petro could probably get up and down the court better.

Joe can play SF, so with Evans and Marvin we are fine.
Crawford can play the point, so with Bibbs and Teague we are fine as well.
I’m not sold with Morris as our 5th post though.

KevinA

August 25th, 2009
10:57 pm

So is Hunter in or out?

Mystikal

August 25th, 2009
11:08 pm

THANK YOU SEKOU!! THANK YOU SUND!!

KevinA

August 25th, 2009
11:12 pm

If Teague has problems will JJ have to guard the pg position?

Melvin

August 25th, 2009
11:16 pm

Doc, i gotcha. The season can’t get here fast enough…

I say we sign Green or Carney and Petro. As tall as Petro is, he may scary few folks walking into the gym…

Mystikal

August 25th, 2009
11:33 pm

I’ll be first to admit how unrealistic it is to expect Siler to seriously get on the floor. But if we’re talking about adding Jason Collins/Lorenzen Wright(extra 6 fouls and no game whatsoever) to get in the game and just bang, why can’t Siler do that. He is bigger than both and could actually develop into something better. Plus, that would allow us to sign Petro (much better skilled) at the other big spot and look at trade prospects for Randmo. Just saying…

bigdave

August 25th, 2009
11:34 pm

a true backup SF and we’ll be set…

macaroni tony

August 25th, 2009
11:37 pm

Hopefullu Joe Smith Maybe able to mentor RandMo, he may get convince Woody to play him (RandMo) this year.

Big Ray

August 25th, 2009
11:39 pm

I don’t care why it took so long to get Joe Smith signed. Are we going to be saying the same thing if/when Joe Johnson finally signs his contract extension?

The important thing is, we got him signed. I guess now Rick Sund doesn’t look like the total money misspending buffoon some people were making him out to be. Heh…

Sekou ,

Thanks for the news on Josh Smith. Some Hawks fans are actually glad to hear it and hope that we will see his work come to fruition. The rest of us will gladly see this as another chance to jeer at him and criticize every single thing he does. Nothing like hometown fans…

Gee, I guess there was no huge trade coming in August. Well, there are a few days left in the month. I wonder what that trade was going to be, anyway?

Glad to hear Joe Smith talking about being a veteran voice for this team. Might seem silly to some, but we’ve not had a credible veteran voice coming out of the frontcourt for a looooooong time.

I don’t want Lo Wright. I’ll leave it at that.

Big Ray

August 25th, 2009
11:40 pm

KevinA,

Heh. Would that be any different from what he has to do when Bibby is on the court?

mred1943

August 25th, 2009
11:42 pm

what is the hawks training camp roster

Big Ray

August 25th, 2009
11:42 pm

So Josh slimmed down. Huh. All I want to see is that jumping jack we had running loose around here in the first 4-5 games of last season. Even when he came back he wasn’t quite the same. I’m ready to see THAT guy back. With a budding midrange jumper. And I don’t care what anybody says. He’ll be better with a jumper.

I.MUS WRITE

August 25th, 2009
11:57 pm

Its about dam time!!!!…………………… My Auntie Nita>>>>> Blo Wright

Mystikal

August 26th, 2009
12:54 am

HEY SEKOU,

Any word on looking for backup small forward?..Gerald Green, Rodney Carnery, Korolev..?

Thanks again for keepin us up to date as always, appreciate you!

BA

August 26th, 2009
2:33 am

What’s good doc, Ray you keeping these streets clean?

If they really got Joe Smith this could be a Terry Pendleton/Otis Nixon type of move. In other words, if all these cats can stay healthy, we all going to be talking about how much better Sund is than we thought.

I’m an admitted Hawks optimist. I was on here this time last year talking about 50 wins and somebody said I was smoking rocks. But this year the talent and depth will be there and short of getting Gortat or ‘Sheed this has been the Hawks most succesful offseason in a LONG time kids.

By the way doc, I’m always around. Never miss the Sekou Smith blog.

Ed

August 26th, 2009
2:35 am

JJ, Josh, Marvin, Horford, Bibby, Zaza, Crawford, Teague, Joe Smith, Mo Evans…that’s 10 players that will get playing time and that will be enough to give Woodrow a nervous breakdown. Any other players you may talk about bringing in, other than a trade, will see almost no playing time whatsoever.

niremetal

August 26th, 2009
4:06 am

Greetings from Bella Italia. If you ever earn enough skymiles to come here, I seriously suggest doing so. Just not in August…damn it’s hot.

I just wanted to give three cheers to Joe Smith and Sund and co. for wrapping up this deal. I was getting worried that no deal would be done before I got back, and that would be depressing. But now our roster is basically set – 11 guys under contract, and we can fill out the last 2-3 spots with whoever and still come out solid.

My guess is that we don’t bring in any more vet free agents. I think the roster will be rounded out by training camp guys like Siler/Hunter/West/etc, which is a good thing because the most important function for the guys at the end of the bench is to play hungry in practice to push the rotation players. For some reason, I don’t see Petro or Green playing hard enough in practice to push anyone.

Anyway, net here is expensive and slow so I’ll bolt but great news on the Joe Smith front.

Sekou Smith

August 26th, 2009
6:38 am

Enjoy Italia Nire. The closest I’m getting to on my vacation this week is a trip to the Olive Garden.

As far as the backup swingman front, Mo Evans is already there folks. I don’t know why he’s being dismissed by everyone. I thought he played well last year, for the most part. But the first 10 is solid, probably as solid as it’s been in the Woodson/Atlanta Spirit era.

The Hawks’ training camp roster hasn’t been unleashed yet. There should be a couple of interesting free agent invitees, though. And I’d imagine there will be an opportunity for someone to make the team via training camp (as Mario West has the past two years and Othello Hunter did last year).

A Thinking Fan

August 26th, 2009
6:47 am

Now the BASG is starting to show some leadership in signing Joe Smith!

Ernest

August 26th, 2009
7:06 am

Glad this is finally take care of! After our first 10, we still have RandMo under contract. Assuming we go with 14 players, I say we pick up Siler, West, and Hunter then call in a good offseason.

vava74

August 26th, 2009
7:13 am

I think that the 11 we have plus Hunter, Siler and West are an extremely solid group.

We have 2 players per position, plus a large body in Morris with 6 fouls to give.

The 3 extra guys should be sent in long stints to the NBDL to improve their games. I am sure that Hunter will develop into a Charles Oakley type of player and that he will be very useful in the future.

Siler is a question mark but it has been said in the past and I will repeat it: you cannot teach height/size and he has plenty of that.

Also, there are several examples of players who started late in BBall and developed really good skills. Sometimes it an evidence of raw talent when with just a few years of organized BBall someone reaches the plateau which Siler has already reached.

My gut feeling is that he is a keeper.

As for West, all teams need an enthusiast like Mario and he certainly will never harm the group. Furthermore, if we look on how Bowen carrer developed, this type of defensive minded players bloom also very late.

jerrywest

August 26th, 2009
8:23 am

Othello is nothing likeOakley. Oakely was Horford without the athletic ability and ball handling.

Siler could be as good as an NBA starter and as bad as a one time training camp invitee. Great experiment on minimum wage because the return of investment could be fantastic. Lets not set ourselves up for disappointment by expecting too much. He will be what he is capable of becoming.

jerrywest

August 26th, 2009
9:00 am

10 reasons Joe Smith is what the Dr ordered.

10. Pick and Roll.
9. He plays bigger than his size.
8. The elite teams get free agents like Joe for Veteran minimum. Cleveland wanted him. Hawks haven’t signed a FA like Joe in a long time. Hopefully, this will open a flood gate in the next few years.
7. He signed for Veteran Minimum which means the league will pay most of his salary and the Hawks will pay only the portion equal to rookie-miniumum.
6. He can play defense and offense for 10-15 minutes a game at a very high level. The other team won’t make a run when two of our starting big men are in foul trouble.
5. He signed for 1 year (short contract- no consequence on future cap space)
4. Playoff tested. He was injured against the Hawks, but he was awesome against the Pistons in the 1st round.
3. His midrange shots will open up the lane for JJ/Crawford/Teague to penetrate.
2. Woody has nothing to teach him. Joe will work fine on autopilot.
1. Joe will guide Josh/Al/Zaza on how to play each player in the NBA. Their developments could make quantum big leaps playing with Joe.

PDubATL

August 26th, 2009
9:03 am

Mario and Siler should be able to lock up 12 & 13 at camp. Assuming we go with 14 players on the roster, the 14th will probably just be best available min-salary forward (SF/PF). That could be Gerald Green, Korolev, Othello Hunter or some other forward we haven’t even thought of yet.

Clyde

August 26th, 2009
9:16 am

Did someone say Lorenzen Wright? I was going to keep quiet for a while until someone mentioned his name.

vava74

August 26th, 2009
9:27 am

Jerrywest,

I don’t understand your reasoning:

Oakley was 6′9” and 245lbs, warrior and a fierce rebounder with limited offensive skills in the begining of his career and later on with a dependable jump shot from within 15/12 feet.

Otello is shorter 6′8” but with much better wingspan and he will probably bulk up from his current weight of 225lbs.

He is a very good rebounder with limited offensive skills and, from what could read about him, he also has a warrior mentality.

To say that Oakley was like Horford without the athletic ability and ball handling isn’t that a worse comparison, given the fact that Horford’s athletic ability and good ball handling are two of his main characteristics???

Mike

August 26th, 2009
9:28 am

I wish we could just eat Randolphs contract and fill out the roster with Siler, Hunter, Mario and Korolev. That gives us with 11-14 a big body, pf in Hunter, a defensive pest on the wing in Mario and a pure shooter. Not a bad way to fill out 11-14.

Astro Joe

August 26th, 2009
9:29 am

nire’s comment from Italy supports what I was thinking this morning during my commute, maybe we need to bring Mario West back. I recall the many quotes from his teammates about how hard he practices and how much they enjoy watching him bust his butt on the court. Maybe having that kind of hungry player is good for some of the old heads to see. My initial thought (from purely a practical standpoint) was that we needed more size (e.g. Hunter, Siler, Collins, Skinner, etc) to complete the roster. But now I wonder if West should make the team for his intangibles. Could a vet like Crawford learn something from West’ tenacity on defense? Are his former teammates energized by his tireless efforts in practice on in cameo appearances? There’s value beyond what shows up in the game stats. And for a team that too often gets complacent (depsite the yelling of their coach), maybe keeping someone who is eternally hungry is a good thing.

Astro Joe

August 26th, 2009
9:31 am

Give me Siler, West & Hunter to round out the roster.

jerrywest

August 26th, 2009
9:55 am

Josh Smith needed Joe Smith like a little boy needs his daddy. Joe Smith could beat the Antoine Walker out of Josh. Josh should just call Joe – Master Nyogi (Karate Kid).

When Josh was a rookie, he played with Al Harrington and Antoine walker, two proverbial stat guys. Woody treated these two like all stars because they were capable of covering up Woody’s biggest weakness, his deer on headlight offensive philosophy. Young Josh wanted to grow up to be like them even though his skillsets are almost diametrically opposite to those two. And he is still trying.

darrell starks

August 26th, 2009
10:00 am

Positive rick sund have done
1.sign zaza, marvin, crawford, teague wait and see positive attitude thats it.
negative rick sund have done
1.sign bibby, no flip , sign joe could have sign wilcox, let solo go,brought back woody could have sign avery johnson, and if push harder could have sign afro puff chill.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!

The Truth

August 26th, 2009
10:03 am

I’m wondering do we throw in Korolev, the 6′9″ Russian into the mix to consider. Maybe he competes against Mario for a roster spot. I like Mario’s hustle but we already have Mo Evans under contract who is a similar 6′5″ player.

The Russian has an interesting background. This kid was the 12th pick in 2005 draft and has been called a “bust” because he has not met expectation for his draft position. This is what the sport pundits said about him when he was drafted sourced at http://www.basketballnonsense.com:
2005 – Yaroslav Korolev (Moscow), No. 12 to Clippers.
This is a puzzling pick, considering the Clippers needed a help inside. They’ve passed through the likes of Sean May, David Lee, Danny Granger and Hakim Warrick.
Obviously, based on the initial scouting report, Korolev had some game or he would not have been selected the 12th pick in the first round. OK, so he turned out to be a bust. Maybe he wasn’t mature enough during that time and didn’t culturally make the transition properly into the US; maybe now he is mature and maybe now he is ready. Yes, the “maybe”, in this case, is a bit redundant and being called a “bust” doesn’t help when you’re trying to fight for a roster spot. But there is another player who was also called a “bust” because of his high draft selection for the same reason and we are celebrating him as a new member to the Hawks roster. His name is Joe Smith. This is what the same pundit said about him:
1995 – Joe Smith (Maryland), No. 1 to Golden State
The standards are always higher when you’re the top pick. Smith has managed some respectable numbers over his career (12 points, 7 boards per game), but considering he was drafted ahead of guys like Kevin Garnett, Rasheed Wallace, Jerry Stackhouse, Michael Finley and Antonio McDyess — and that he’s been a meaningful player on a good team only twice (’00 and ‘02 Wolves) — he has to be considered a bust.
Like our celebrated Joe Smith, we may have another diamond in our mist with Korolev if he can earn a roster spot.

At this point, deep into the rotation, we are really looking for guys to emulate core players at specific positions. Since we have a void at the backup SF position, I think a Korolev type of player is more needed then Mario since he is too similar to Mo Evan in body type. But to Mo Evans credit, he is a much better offense player then Mario.

So, if destiny can repeat itself, maybe Korolev could be on the same successful track as GI Joe. (There’s that “maybe” word again)

darrell starks

August 26th, 2009
10:04 am

2009 ATLANTA HAWKS COULD HAVE BEEN
COACH AVERY JONHSON
STARTER CRAWFORD, JOE, MARVIN, JOSH, HORFORD.
BENCH TEAGUE, FLIP, CHILL, WILCOX, ZAZA.
RESERVE MOE EVANS, SOLO.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!

jerrywest

August 26th, 2009
10:05 am

Oakley was a fierce competitor in the mold of Horford. They got the same sort of physical and mind games. Both had that reliable mid range jump shot, but no post up games. Both had tremendous thirst for rebounding. Oakley didn’t have Horford’s athletic ability or ball handling, but he was never a stat guy just like Horford. He was all about the team and made the all star team once by sheer presence. Horford has a much higher ceiling than Oakley. I’d say Oakley sort of had Shelden Williams body but Horford’s mindset.

Othello has to make an NBA roster first. The galaxy called Oakley is far far away.

jerrywest

August 26th, 2009
10:13 am

The Truth,

Agree 100% about Korolov. Great post.

KevinA

August 26th, 2009
10:17 am

West can be the guy to defensively slow down the NBA’s best #1/#2 players in spot minutes. West finds it hard to gain more playing time because of his lack of offense. Notable a consistent jump shot when wide open. Maybe this off season he can fill that hole in his resume. I hope Sund is paying attention. One of the last spots should go to a player like West. Has he blown his chance? I don’t know.

Astro Joe

August 26th, 2009
10:28 am

jerrywest said When Josh was a rookie, he played with Al Harrington and Antoine walker, two proverbial stat guys. Woody treated these two like all stars because they were capable of covering up Woody’s biggest weakness, his deer on headlight offensive philosophy. Any chance, whatsoever, that Woody played those guys because they were the only NBA-caliber scorers on the team at the time?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ATL/2005.html

Astro Joe

August 26th, 2009
10:33 am

The Truth, I agree that West and Evans are somewhat redundant. I’d like to see Hunter grow into the back-up SF role, but I tend to value rebounding and defense more than offense when thinking about guys at the end of the bench. And I admit that I am stereotyping when I guess that Hunter is more likely to become a good defender than Korolev.

jerrywest

August 26th, 2009
11:10 am

Astro

The point is that Al Harrington and Antoine Walker were Josh’s role model when he was a rookie. When Woody made Josh Smith our shooting guard playing next to those two, all the stars aligned to turn Pinnochio into a donkey. Hopefully, Joe Smith can be the Gemini Cricket that will turn Josh Smith into the best he can be.

jerrywest

August 26th, 2009
11:16 am

I must say I am cautiously salivating about Siler and Korolev’s upsides. However, West’s real value is in practice, and the energy he brings to each practice and each game can transform the entire team’s commitment level. I love how he stands up after every good play and is first to give high fives in timeouts. If he can’t make it to the NBA, we should definitely sign him up as an assistant coach just to keep him around.

Daniel

August 26th, 2009
11:25 am

The Truth- Nice Post. I am pretty sure Korolev gets a training camp invite. I like the idea of him on the bench.

Congrats to the Hawks for getting Joe Smith.
So now with Bibby, Za, and Joe Smith all signing as free agents, does this mean the whole “no free agents want to play for the Hawks” thing is gone?

alright Sekou, how long before we start wringing our hands over the JJ extension?

Daniel

August 26th, 2009
11:29 am

The Truth- If we take Korolev then no Hunter most likely though.

Please, Please, Please!!! SAY NO TO LORENZEN WRIGHT. Maybe the only player on the planet who could make Randolph Morris look good.

The Truth

August 26th, 2009
11:31 am

AJ

What interesting about Hunter is that he is really a tweener, a PF in a SF body. What makes him able to play at the PF position is his very long wingspan. I don’t know whether he can play SF with his skill set.

The Truth

August 26th, 2009
11:32 am

Daniel

Thanks

Daniel

August 26th, 2009
11:37 am

Darrell: I really like this line-up better than yours
Bibby, Joe, Marvin, Josh, Al, Za, Crawford, Smith, Teague, Korolev, Siler(?)
I will agree with you that the ONLY misstep this summer by Sund has been the dealings with Childress.
Right now (assuming Joe Johnson extension) I give him a solid B+, would have been an A- if he could have got something for Chils.

Daniel

August 26th, 2009
11:38 am

I left Evans off the rotation.

jerrywest

August 26th, 2009
11:47 am

Get the Lo out of here.

jerrywest

August 26th, 2009
11:53 am

Crawford, being a better scorer, ball handler and passer than Flip, covers up Mo Evans weaknesses very well. Since Crawford is smaller than Flip, he is less likely to steal Mo’s minutes than Flip would.

Astro Joe

August 26th, 2009
12:00 pm

The Truth, that’s why I think tweeners are valuable off the bench. Because they can play multiple positions. And let’s not fool ourselves, JJ will play minutes at SF. So more than a pure back-up SF like Korolev, we could use a guy who can rebound well, has the agility to guard a SF, the size to match-up with bigger SFs and can make a wide-open 18 footer for maybe 6-10 minutes a game. I’m not saying Hunter can do that next year but maybe in time, he can become that guy.

jerrywest, I agree that Josh Smith has never had someone of Joe Smith’s quality on the team. And Woody definitely did him a disservice by having Smith play a “rover” position in his rookie year. I had previously predicted that Josh Smith would likely be a DPOY candidate with Joe Smith on the team. But honestly, I think it may come from having a guy who could take away his minutes when he loses focus, more so than someone who will teach him how to play the game. I think more than a mentor, Josh has needed competition. If Josh’s head isn’t quite in the game late in the 4th quarter (as an example), he may very well be watching the older Smith playing the PF spot. And that may do wonders for helping the younger Smith with his consistency (and decision-making) issues. And who benefits? The team, either way. Marvin and Chill battled for minutes. Marvin even battled Evans last year for time. But Josh really hasn’t had to fight for his court time in the past few years. That is why I think this signing will be HUGE (to borrow Woody’s favorite word) for Josh.

The Truth

August 26th, 2009
12:01 pm

jerrywest

Crawford is 6′5″
Flip is 6′3″

How is Crawford is smaller than Flip?

The Truth

August 26th, 2009
12:06 pm

AJ

Good point about Hunter if he has the mobility to defend a SF. I’ve seen him play at PF and he’s fine with that wingspan.

bigdave

August 26th, 2009
12:14 pm

i dunno… one cant ignore the W/L record with Mo in the lineup, however, he was a personal foul waiting to happen… he contributed, but i think adding another pure SF to the roster would be smart. given the mismatches created with Mo on the floor trying to defend the 3 position.

jerrywest

August 26th, 2009
12:14 pm

The Truth,

Flip is strong enough to guard shooting guards, Crawford is not. Knicks used to put Crawford on point guards and Marbury on shooting guards because the opposite worked out much worse. Crawford wasn’t so bad defending point guards. The sorry part is Crawford is not only 2 inches taller than Flip, he also has Marvinesque long arms. With that kind of superior lengths he shouldn’t be so bad defending shooting guards.

jerrywest

August 26th, 2009
12:17 pm

Astro Joe,

Great points at 12:00 about how Joe Smith would make Josh into something special. Sekou should expand on this and add a couple of interviews to make a fine article out of it.

A Tribe Called Quest

August 26th, 2009
12:17 pm

Stating The Obvious,

You are a moron.

1) You stalk people on twitter. You obviously are some immature 27 year old who lives in his mom’s basement and has no college degree

2) If Theo only cares about a title, then how about Drew Gooden? We could’ve gotten someone far better than Joe Smith for about 3 mill a year. Did he really choose Dallas over ATL?

You are an idiot, and if you are going to insult me, at least get a real name, moron

Blast

August 26th, 2009
12:27 pm

Finally, Joe Smith is in the bag. Good job, Sund! Now give me Siler, Mario, and Hunter and Hawks good to go!

Screw Lo Wright! We don’t need him messing up Teague as he did Acie Law!

Go Atlanta Hawks!!!!!!!

jerrywest

August 26th, 2009
12:32 pm

We need a fifth wheel big man veteran who is a thug. Let NBA pay most of his salary and Hawks pay only the rookie-minimum portion. Shouldn’t be hard to spend that money. Just don’t tell me useless Lo.

Hoops

August 26th, 2009
12:38 pm

Daniel & The Truth,

We think alike! I would like to see the Hawks finish out #12-14 with Siler, West, and Korolev. That would give the Hawks a real balanced bench. I like having a defensive stopper coming off the bench (West). This is especially important with the defensive concerns we have with Crawford and Bibby.

I like having a pure shooter coming off the bench (Korolev). There are those nights when the regular wing players are not hitting their shots. It’s nice to be able to put in a guy that can shoot the lights out!

I also like having depth in the post coming off the bench(Joe S, Zaza, Morris, & Siler) to back up Josh & Horford. In the East, it is going to be important to be able to go to the bench and bring in post players that can contribute on both ends!

Stating the Obvious

August 26th, 2009
1:37 pm

Tribe,

First, you’ll have to remind me how Gooden did down the stretch and in the playoffs for the Spurs. Oh right. AWFUL. He got toasted on defense so often that Popovich had to scrape him off the floor. You’d really rather have him for 3 times the price of Joe Smith?

Second, Gooden will get more minutes in Dallas than he would have here. Dallas has no decent big men besides Nowitzki, who doesn’t play as big as he is. Why would he come to a potential 47-win team to play 10 minutes a game instead of going to a 50-win team to play 20 minutes a game?

Lastly, whats a real name? Please, make me smarter and tell me. Is it only a real name if you borrow the name of an old hip hop group? Should I start going by N.W.A.? Beastie Boys? Oh sorry, I forgot. Hip Hop Is Dead.

newkid

August 26th, 2009
1:41 pm

With Joe Smith having finally dawned his Hawks wings, we’re headed for regular season #3 in the East. Lewis, who’s an integral component of Orlando’s first five, will be absent for the first 12% of the Magic’s season, potentially creating HUGE (deference to Woody) early chemistry problems. Even after his return several games will be required to work him comfortably into the offense (with newcomer VC). I expect Orlando will not hit its stride until around the 16th game of the regular season.

Our well-seasoned starters should pounce from game one, and hopefully catapult us into an early lead over the ’short in the tooth’ Magic. Ours will be to maintain that lead through the remainder of the season, and secure home court advantage through at least the 1st round of the playoffs. If the aging Celtics break down physically (fingers crossed), we have a chance to sneak into the #2 slot and hold home court through the 2nd round. I like us in a seven game home court series against the Celtics; and with the help of Joe Smith I like us against the geriatric duo of Shaq and Z in the conference finals (forget Lebron, he’ll get his).

Well done Sund. Go Hawks!

jerrywest

August 26th, 2009
1:52 pm

JJ + Crawford = BK’s wet dream:

Knicks fanatics tell me that Crawford commands double teaming. JJ will have his best offensive season with Crawford next to him. Both of them can’t be double teamed and one of them will be single covered by a very small guard all the time. Crawford could go 50 on Nelson/M.Williams when JJ is there to protect him.

Astro Joe

August 26th, 2009
1:52 pm

Hoops, keep in mind that we can only have 12 guys on the bench in a game. Assuming that we have 14 on the roster, two guys sit there in suits each night. I could see adjusting the roster based on defensive assignments (e.g. activate the extra center when you play someone like Shaq or activate the extra defender when playing D. Wade). But I can’t see activating Korolev to play against a team like the Warriors, Knicks or some other hyper-offensive team. I just don’t see a practical reason for adding him to the roster.

Astro Joe

August 26th, 2009
1:59 pm

newkid, if the Magic go 7-7 while dealing with Rashard’s absence and subsequent return, the Hawks would need to go some kind of incredible 12-2 to truly create a notable margin to play with for the remainder of the year. And do I really believe that even a 5 game lead is enough? Orlando was 12 games better than us last season, if we believe that somehow we closed that gap by 4 games (which I don’t), that early 5 game lead ultimately disappears and they win the division by 3 games. And lastly, I think Boston is the most likely team to finish in 3rd place, not Orlando. Orlando’s foundation is defense and they have the potential to be better this year than they were last year in that area. Boston, on the other hand, is an old team that added another old guy and may be looking for extra duct tape at the end of the season to keep everyone functioning.

HawksV

August 26th, 2009
2:32 pm

Hi Sekou..love the work…any word on how the other hawks players look. In particular Bibby and Johnson. It would be nice to get an update on how they look physically and how their games have expanded this summer.

newkid

August 26th, 2009
3:16 pm

AJ, I’ve got us 12-4 after the first 16, and the Magic at either 7-9 or 8-8 after the first 16. We’ll be up by 4 or 5 games in the loss column. We expand that lead – by at least three more games – in the run up to the break because we have a very friendly December home schedule and a very friendly January road schedule. Meanwhile the Magic (in December & January) have 16 road games and of their 14 home games they play Celtics, Hawks, and Raptors twice each. The Magic start to cook after the break, but can they over take us in the 2nd half? No! They’re looking up at our 7-8 game post-break lead, and decide that we’re out of reach, so they play for the 3rd or 4th spot in the East.

That’s my story, and I’m sticking to it.

Big Ray

August 26th, 2009
3:29 pm

Astro Joe,

Agreed completely on the effect Joe Smith can have where Josh Smith is concerned. Agreed completely, and it’s about time we’ve had something like that. I think Smith’s maturity would be a couple notched ahead of where it is now if we had that for the last couple of years. Of course, I’m also thinking positively. It could be that Josh responds negatively (God forbid), but I don’t want to think that way. If he does respond negatively, then he makes a good case for a trade when one becomes available (noth that I’m willing to move right from a single bad incident to a trade, but you get my drift). In the meantime, I’ll continue to think that he’ll respond to having his minutes cut (if that ever has to happen) as well as he did to being benched late in the year last season.

BA,

Just doing what I can, bro’. Glad to see you’re still around. Hope you’ll be bringing your usual good stuff when things get cranked up. I’ll be looking for you on the Hacks blog, too.

Nire,

I’m jealous. Both you and my little brother are enjoying Italy right now. You probably more than him, as he is stationed there, rather than vacationing. Enjoy your trip and holla at me when ya get back.

Truth,

I agree on Korolev. He’s an interesting prospect. If we’re into a shooter with size, he’s a fit. But like others have said, he also probably negates the possibility of having Hunter.

I definitely want Siler. I’d take Hunter too, as I think he can develop into the combo forward that we need. What I’ve seen of him shows that he will hustle, has decent fundamentals, etc. I think he’s a keeper.

I’m not sure what to say about West. I’d hate to see him go, but I don’t know if he can hang onto his role of pet guided missile. I guess we’ll see. If you ask me, this is the year he may indeed have to find another roster. Hate that, but this really may be the year. Sometimes that is how the dominos fall.

Big Ray

August 26th, 2009
3:31 pm

Newkid,

I hope we are experiencing the chemistry, cohesion, and organic growth that it will take for that to happen. Seriously, because it will take a good dose of all three….

Astro Joe

August 26th, 2009
3:31 pm

newkid, I hope that you’re story becomes reality. Throw in a few 10+ game injuries for key members of the Boston Old-Timers and we might SHOCK THE WORLD! :D

RMan

August 26th, 2009
3:56 pm

Did everyone see the following wording in Sekou’s Joe Smith signing article – “the non-stop contact from Zaza Pachulia” – which helped lead to Joe’s decision to come here. Guess Zaza should be compensated for a management role as well as his player salary! Good to see this enthusiasm from a player.

cp

August 26th, 2009
4:00 pm

It’s nice that Mario is an energy guy but I would rather have a guy with some actual talent at the end of the bench. Siler, Hunter, and a back up sf.

Yupperz

August 26th, 2009
4:09 pm

Fun fact-this is the first time since he was drafted that Marv won’t be the youngest player on the team.

newkid

August 26th, 2009
4:14 pm

Ray, the key to that chemistry and cohesion challenge may just be the sort of start we manage to put together. You, probably better than many here, know what a good string of well coordinated and executed busts can do for the morale and cohesion of your officers. If Woody were to organize his ‘plan for the season’ into quarters, he could do much worse than to strongly emphasize the importance of a rapid and highly successful first quarter start (e.g., 16 – 4) to building the chemistry and cohesion that might just jettison this side to a 60-win season and the #2 seed.

His ‘punch them in the mouth’ approach to the 1st quarter of the season would then be the foundation upon which the ‘within season’ organic growth occurs. One must wonder if Woody can engender in these cats (even with a 16 & 4 kind of start) the notion that they’re more than capable of the sort of organic growth – within the season – that will catapult them to the East’s elite. From a motivation perspective, he doesn’t strike me as the Phil Jackson type. His ability to motivate these cats to aspire to team levels they’ve not yet come close to approaching could be the difference between a 60-win season and a trip to the conference finals, and another 45+ win season and an early good night after the first round.

Daniel

August 26th, 2009
4:44 pm

newkid- I have to disagree with your last point. I think that your assessment of Woody’s ability is based on some team that has been stuck at 45 wins and 1st or 2cd round playoff losses. We just had our FIRST playoff win in like forever last year, we hadn’t won 45 games since mookie and steve were here. I don’t know if Woody can take this team to the next level either, but to be fair he has NOT hit a ceiling yet.

Astro Joe

August 26th, 2009
4:44 pm

newkid, I think he tried a “punch them in the mouth” approach at the beginning of last season. And it was working until Josh busted his ankle and then Horford got hurt shortly thereafter. That’s why it is good to have depth this season. I remember that we were SMOKING in the first few games of last season, playing with poise and tenacious defense. Maybe with better depth, we can maintain that pace. Personally, I’d prefer to just get better on the road and against the elite teams and not shoot for a end-of-season total. If we improve our margin of victory, road record and record against the league’s top 4-5 teams, that would be good enough for me (as it would provide tangible evidence that we’re ready to compete in the 2nd round of the playoffs).

Hoops

August 26th, 2009
4:47 pm

Astro Joe,

I thought the minimum players activated was 13 and you could have up to a maximum of 15. I guess I was wrong.

Mystikal

August 26th, 2009
4:54 pm

Truth,

In mentioning who is a bust for where they were selected..
Yes, Joe Smith would qualify for that and also we have our very own
Marvin Wiliams, who forever has to be compared to CP3 and D-Will. We know what he has brought to our ball club though, so perhaps giving Korolev another look is not such a bad idea.

Melvin

August 26th, 2009
4:57 pm

UGA

August 26th, 2009
4:59 pm

Last I read Korolev is playing in Russia for one more year, so he is not an option. I wonder if some of these other names metioned here will be invited to camp or if we will actually sign another. As it stands now, Morris is our 5th big which is not good for depth.

newkid

August 26th, 2009
5:01 pm

I take your point Daniel. Maybe the proper assessment of Woody’s ability to motivate these cats to heights unseen is ‘incomplete’.

Astro Joe

August 26th, 2009
5:05 pm

Melvin, all of those guys were victims of bad coaching or lack of playing time. :twisted:

Ken Strickland

August 26th, 2009
5:23 pm

Everyone keeps saying we need a center more than anything else. Well, I beg to differ. Name an available center that’s put up better numbers than Horford. What we need most is a starting PG that plays good DEF, breaks down DEF’s by penetrating and creating scoring opportunities for others, as well as dishing out more assists than JJ.

If Teague is as good as advertised, he should be given the opportunity to win the starting PG position from Bibby, although Woodson’s not likely to let that happen. Teague would add an entirely new and different dimension to both our OFF and DEF. Bibby would be very effective coming off the bench. Teague would allow us to penetrate and breaddown DEF’s the way other PG’s have successfully hurt us with Bibby in the gm.

Samuel

August 26th, 2009
6:29 pm

Ken,

Another ignorant statement:

“If Teague is as good as advertised, he should be given the opportunity to win the starting PG position from Bibby, although Woodson’s not likely to let that happen”.

Give me an example of a rookie or anyone else for that matter who was good enough to start but didn’t.

Key word “if”. He will be given the opportunity, the question is: “if” he’s good enough. Who cares about how he’s advertised. Remember the hype about Acie and Salim.

If he comes to camp and outplays Bibby, he’ll get his chance. If not, he’ll play the minutes he deserves.

Mondo

August 26th, 2009
6:36 pm

We’re winning this Championship this year!

kwooden1

August 26th, 2009
7:04 pm

Congrats to the HAWKS and Sund for closing the deal with Joe Smith! Joe definitely fits what this team needs in terms of a backup Vet big. Looks like Sund is preparing for next year in terms of extending JJ and Horford, terms of the contracts he’s getting done. If the HAWKS are going to keep 14 guys then I think the last 3 spots (Morris already has one), should be Siler, West and Hunter. West would appear to be the odd man out, but he played the most meaningful minutes of any of the bench players last year. I know he doesn’t have the skills of Gardner, but having a guy come in the game and immediately make a difference on the defensive end is extremely valuable.

GO HAWKS!!

defensive hole

August 26th, 2009
7:05 pm

sessions is still out there

Ken Strickland

August 26th, 2009
8:59 pm

SAMUEL-Josh Childress, Vinnie Johnson, Ben Gordan AND Ilgoukas, if Shaq gets the starting nod, along with an entire host of players that have earned 6th man of the yr honors. YOU OBVIOUSLY LACK THE COMPREHENSION AND FORETHOUGHT NEEDED TO SUCCESSFULLY CHALLENGE MY COMMENTS, OR POSSIBLY ANYONE ELSES FOR THAT MATTER.

So, the next time you want to question someones comments or opinions, why not try adopting a more intelligent and respectable approach, rather than being rude and condescending. It’s more of a reflection on you than anyone else.

Mystikal

August 26th, 2009
9:13 pm

Ken,

Agree with your earlier post about having a point guard that can defend. Not likely Woodson is willing to relinquish the starting job from Bibby, even if it was painstakingly obvious. Hopefully Teague does come as advertised and get majority of the minutes. What really matters though is who finishes the games.

Sautee

August 26th, 2009
9:23 pm

Samuel,

About this: “Give me an example of a rookie or anyone else for that matter who was good enough to start but didn’t.”

Are you SERIOUS?

John Havlicek. Enough said.

Mystikal

August 26th, 2009
9:39 pm

HEY SEKOU,

Any updates on what guys have been up to this summer? Think Horford was doing his ambassador thing, Zaza was playing in a league in Georgia. Josh has been working out here in Atlanta instead of his usual Houston, and supposedly lost weight worked on mid range game. Marv has been working on his ballhandling and getting completely healthy. Does this sound about right so far?? Any news on what Teague, Crawford, or JJ have been up to or what specifically everyone has been working on??

Astro Joe

August 26th, 2009
9:52 pm

Can someone please show me the Teague advertisements that describe him as a great defender… because I can’t find them anywhere. Yeah, he’s lightening quick but since when does that translate into defensive superiority? (Does anyone consider TJ Ford as a defensive wizard?) I see where guys like Darren Collison and Ty Lawson were lauded for their defensive abilities, can someone please show me where Teague got some love for his superb defense? Thanks.

Ken Strickland

August 26th, 2009
10:42 pm

MYSTICAL-exactly. We all know Woodson is partial to veteran players, as are a lot of HC’s. I was making the point because I didn’t think he would put his coaching future in the hands of a rookie PG, especially since it was Bibby that came to his rescue the last time. I’m not being critical of Woodson for not wanting to trust his future to a rookie PG, but it’s just the way he’s operated in the past.

SAUTEE-thanks. How could I have missed the most obvious example. I could’ve also mentioned Paul Silas, MGinobli, “Downtown” Freddie Brown, “Big Baby” GDavis, Sam Cassell and Junior Bridgeman.

SAMUEL-DOES THAT ANSWER YOUR QUESTION?

Samuel

August 26th, 2009
10:55 pm

I didn’t know Woody ever coached John Havlicek. Dam_, Woody is better than I thought. A head coach at 4 years old. Junior Bridgeman, are you kidding me and The “Stupidest Example of All Time”, Shaq over Ilgauskas.

Clyde, you named this “Clown” blogger of the Year. Are you kidding me?

Samuel

August 26th, 2009
11:03 pm

Jeff Teague strengths and weaknesses according to FraftExpress:

STRENGTHS:
- Ability to get to free throw line
- Go-to scoring mentality
- Scoring instincts
- Transition play
- Ability to create own shot
- Aggressive slashing mentality
- Athleticism
- Excellent first step
- Explosiveness
- 3-point range
- 3-point shooting percentages
- Ability to shoot off the dribble
- Quick release
- Solid free throw shooter

WEAKNESSES:

- Ability to play at different speeds
- Decision making
- Not a true point guard
- Shot-selection
- Stuck between 1 and 2
- Turnover prone
- Ability to defend position at next level?
- Commitment to playing defense
- Defensive fundamentals
- Average basketball IQ
- Body language
- Consistency
- Focus
- Lacks discipline
- Maturity
- Mental toughness
- Off-court red flags?
- Backup/Fringe Starter?
- Got by on instincts at college level
- Ability to create for others
- Assist to turnover ratio
- Ability to finish around basket
- Frail frame
- Undersized
- Ability to catch and shoot
- Limited number of 3-point attempts

Yea Joe, what advertisements are they talking about? These clowns have already penciled the guy in as a starter or blamed Woody if he didn’t without him ever hittin the court. Blogger of the Year!

Fire Ken Strickland

defensive hole

August 26th, 2009
11:14 pm

defensive hole
Ya’ll are right pointing out we have a defensive hole against some teams at center. I would call it a smaller hole then the defensive hole at pg. Then there is the largest hole of all with a back court jacking up a bunch of jumpers. I don’t see Crawford fixing that at all.
Our new plan is to out score them?. Another warrior team?
With all of our warts we can still win 50+ and a 4th seed. To ask for more than that would be asking for devine intervention.

Samuel

August 26th, 2009
11:18 pm

Let’s hope Teague doesn’t live up to those advertisements, huh Joe.

A Tribe Called Quest

August 26th, 2009
11:26 pm

Stating,

you have no life and you stalk people.

You therefore are unworthy scum

Samuel

August 26th, 2009
11:27 pm

What about this advertisement. Rates a 6 out of 10 on defense. I’m really getting excited.

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/jeff-teague

Ken Strickland

August 26th, 2009
11:37 pm

SAMUEL-a lot of the weaknesses you listed were attributed to CPaul and DWilliams, particularly by Woodson. It’s funny how some of you can use your lack of knowledge or info about Teagues DEF ability to make it an issue, but not question what you know, and that’s Bibby is a DEF liability and a one dimensional PG that doesn’t penetrate and breakdown DEF’s, or stop teams from double/triple teaming JJ.

SAMUEL-don’t make an even bigger “A” of yourself by using meaningless crap trying save face for making your unwarranted and thoughless comment about my opinion. Just accept you were wrong and move on.

Samuel

August 26th, 2009
11:48 pm

NBA Draft.net: He also shoots a “palmball”. OMG!! Another Childress. Say it aint so.

By the Way, the Celtics trotted out: Bob Cousy, Sam and KC Jones, Tommy Heinsohn, and Bill Russell. Not exactly slouches so everybody says. I was just being born.

Fire Red Auerbach

Samuel

August 26th, 2009
11:57 pm

How meaningless is bring up “freakn” Junior Bridgeman. Who the hel_ is Junior Bridgeman anyway? Sounds like a scrubb to me. Can anybody get me the “skinny” on the great “Junior Bridgeman”?

Big Ray

August 26th, 2009
11:58 pm

Gearon likes Teague and said he had an awesome camp.

Sund likes Teague. He picked him and had good things to say about him.

Woody likes Teague, and went so far as to compare him to Acie in his efforts to express what he thought about Teague’s skill set.

These are the only advertisements I care about at this point.

As for the draft site “advertisements”, do they tell you what a player will do once he plays in the NBA? No, they do not. Hell, some of the so-called strengths and weaknesses on any player’s “assessment” end in question marks. What does THAT tell you?

This stuff is observation of the player, and we all know the college game doesn’t necessarily translate to the pro game. Some great college players haven’t made it all that well (or at all) in the League (Mateen Cleaves, Randolph Childress, Adam Morrison, Michael Olowakandi). Others who didn’t look so awesome or looked good-but-not-great in college, have solid or even brilliant NBA careers. Did anybody really think Gilbert Arenas would be good enough to get a $120 million dollar contract, and be infamously named Agent Zero? Who knew the kid from UNC in ‘84 would be in the conversation for Greatest Of All Time? They all thought it was going to be Sam Bowie…

Teague says he wants to be a good defender. Woody wants good defense from all of his people. If Teague is willing to do the work, and Woody is willing to coach him along, I don’t see why it won’t be a successful situation. And I have no reason right now to think that either guy will not hold up his end of the bargain.

I’ll judge the man when I see what he does once he hits the NBA hardwood. Damn the advertisements.

Big Ray

August 27th, 2009
12:02 am

Samuel,

Do you just hate Ken, or are you selling out on “Ya Boy Rick?” If I recall correctly, it was Ya Boy Rick who picked Teague, and it seems to me that Ya Homeboy Woody likes what he sees in the kid. Why are YOU hatin’ on him? Doesn’t make sense to me.

Was there somebody you wanted Ricky to pick instead? Do tell.

Samuel

August 27th, 2009
12:04 am

Dam,

Junior is Ballin 4 Real. Dude owns 152 Wendy’s. Plus he got the Lakers Kareem. Go-head Junior. I aint mad at-cha.

http://milwaukee.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2003/05/05/daily3.html

Big Ray

August 27th, 2009
12:13 am

Ken,

Like I mentioned earlier, I don’t see Teague getting that starting job coming right out of training camp, and the fact is that he might not get it this year…or even the next. We’ll have to see what he can do. Or rather, Woody will have to see what he can do. Here’s the thing: Woody clearly likes what he sees in Teague more than he ever did what he saw in Law. It is what it is, but I can’t help but feel positive about it, even if I disagree with a dozen things Woody does. It’s never a bad thing for a head coach to show a positive feeling about a rookie.

But I doubt this kid is ready to grab the reigns of an NBA team and lead them into the playoffs. Then again, Derrick Rose had no problem doing that, and he had a rookie coach to deal with as well.

I’m sure some smartass will tell me that this is because Rose was picked #1 overall. Well, Marvin was picked #2…..got an explanation for that? Heh! ;)

Having said that, I too, find it funny that Woody didn’t think much of two point guards who are now all-stars. But at least he thinks well of Teague. That’s good for us, and for the Hawks.

It’s also hilarious that Bibby’s defensive deficiencies are thrown out the window while Teague’s assessements state that he’s not good on defense, and boy oh boy are we trumpeting that for all to hear. Funny, I thought the guy hadn’t played an NBA game yet. So if he hasn’t played one yet, then why are we talking about what he will or won’t do? How about this: Bibby will never be better on defense, nor will he penetrate better. Teague has plenty of time and opportunity to be good at both.

Again, if he can’t be lauded as a player because he has yet to play a single NBA game, then he also cannot be vilified for the same reasons.

I never knew Chauncey Billups would grow into a model point guard who can play equally as well for one type of coach (Larry Brown) as he could for another (George Karl).

Samuel

August 27th, 2009
12:13 am

Ray,

Come on now. You know me better than that. I just gotta stand up for my “COY”. Jokers already finding faults with Woody before the season even starts.

I hope Teague is good enough to start. That would mean he’s pretty good and the Hawks would be better too but if he doesn’t, it’s not because Woody held him back. We’ve been through that non-sense before and it don’t “FLY With ME”.

RealSquawk

August 27th, 2009
12:21 am

josh has been working on that jumper since he came into the league. so the fact he is working on it this summer gives me no optimism towards his improvement this year.

Big Ray

August 27th, 2009
12:30 am

STRENTHS

Transition play
- Versatility
- Aggressive slashing mentality
- Ball-handling skills
- Ball-handling skills w/either hand
- Change of gears/Hesitation moves
- Defensive potential
- Versatility to defend multiple positions
- Potential
- Unselfishness
- Work ethic
- High-level productivity
- Ability to finish around basket
- Body control
- Freakish athleticism
- Incredibly quick
- Physical specimen
- Size for position
- Undersized

WEAKNESSES:

- Decision making
- Mid-range game
- Out of control at times
- Turnover prone
- Defensive fundamentals
- Not ready to contribute immediately
- Perimeter shooting ability

Hmmmm. Those are some nasty weaknesses….wonder if this guy was as bad as advertised? I mean, it DOES say he’s not ready to contribute immediately and mentions defensive fundamentals as a weakness.

I wonder what the Celtics thought about those advertisements in the playoffs? Heh…

OH. Did I mention we were talking about Derrick Rose?

Samuel

August 27th, 2009
12:32 am

Me neither squawk. Now if I heard that he was giving up on shooting anything outside of 12 feet, I would be “GEEKED”.

Big Ray

August 27th, 2009
12:33 am

Samuel,

I understand that. This is one reason why I keep trying to remind folks how much Woody and everybody else seem to be so positive about Teague. I mean, they’re not saying he’s going to start, and you don’t get the kind of heady play out of a guy without the experience, but I think this kid will be good.

Again, I’m not expecting him to be the starter this season, but like you I will be pleased if he does start. We were happy to have Bibby as a starter when we got him. Imagine if we have him as a backup. Can’t beat that!

Big Ray

August 27th, 2009
12:40 am

Heh. It’s NOT okay to find fault with the coach, but it IS okay to find fault with a player.

So we SHOULD assume that Woody will do the right thing with a rookie player, but we SHOULD NOT assume that Smith has actually improved his shooting.

This argument never ends :roll:

Stating the Obvious

August 27th, 2009
12:58 am

Tribe,

Just repeating what someone else posted a few weeks back, brah.

Ken Strickland

August 27th, 2009
2:07 am

BIG RAY-we’re on the same page as far as Teague’s chances of becoming a starter this yr. I find it hard to believe a team would double JJ with Teague or Crawford in the gm. Their speed, quickness, penetrating and shooting ability in a 4 on 3 situation would give us an almost unstoppable advantage. And like you, I was very encouraged to hear Woodson sing the praises of Teague.

With Crawford’s size and PG skills, he would be a perfect compliment to Bibby coming off the bench. On OFF Bibby would play SG and PG on DEF, like AIverson did with ESnow in Philly. I know it’s just wishful thinking, but it’s an intriging thought anyway.

Despite all of the varied opinions that’s been expressed about where the Hawks will finish this yr, I think we’ll give Orlando a run for the 3rd seed. We did an excellent job of overcoming major injuries to 3 key starters last yr. With Joe Smith, we should be able to do an even better job. Boston can’t afford to lose either Pierce or KG, Cleveland would fall apart without LeBron and Orlando can’t challenge us without Dwight. Orlando knows that, which is why they matched Houston’s offer for Gortat.

One queston. If Bibby missed considerable time due to injury, who do you think Woodson would start in his place, Teague or Crawford?

Hms

August 27th, 2009
2:31 am

Hms

August 27th, 2009
2:26 am
Guys, I want to tell you a secret ive lived with for a long time. Im gay. Very gay. I like animals too… I hope you arent offended and will accept me for what I am. A sick and perverted man.

Hms

August 27th, 2009
2:45 am

Hms

August 27th, 2009
2:26 am
Guys, I want to tell you a secret ive lived with for a long time. Im gay. Very gay. I like animals too… I hope you arent offended and will accept me for what I am. A sick and perverted man.

August 27th, 2009
2:37 am
Hms

August 27th, 2009
2:26 am
Guys, I want to tell you a secret ive lived with for a long time. Im gay. Very gay. I like animals too… I hope you arent offended and will accept me for what I am. A sick and perverted man.

Ken and I are a couple and we both wear our pants with the zippers to the rear. Ive also got a crush on Michael Vick. There…Ive said it. Im tired of being under cover. Ken and I are coming out of the closet.

Like it or not!!

Hms

August 27th, 2009
2:40 am
I never said I was very gay. Just gay.

Ed

August 27th, 2009
4:00 am

The fact that Woody approved of drafting Teague, likes what he’s seen in Teague, means Woodrow will be much more forgiving and supportative. He will see the good things in JT as opposed to his weaknesses when evaluating him. This isn’t to say Woody won’t work on Teague’s shortcomings, it just the way in which he’ll look upon the situation,…the glass half full not empty.

tbhawksfan

August 27th, 2009
6:10 am

Teague will be given the team in pre-season (as was Law). Acie actually did really well in the pre-.
Given an early opportunity to show what he can do, it’s possible that he will be able to stake his claim to minutes.

Bibby and the rest of the starters are ready to play together. Teague wil get the chance. We’ll see.

Teague and Crawf will get time at PG. I’m hopeful to see Bibs minutes come down to about 26.

Oh, and I rezally like (lol) Samuel’s statement to not judge Woody before the season has even started. Hey, Samuel, we have like five years of Woodson to use in analysis. He has deficiencies and I’ve never understood your blind defense of his coaching.

I wish, but totally doubt, that we’d see some new twists to the Hawks schemes that maximize their talent and potential. Woodson seems to be pretty good at creating a homogenous environment, but I don’t think anyone can sell him as a offensive schemer. As for his D, there is some success, but no sign of adapting to and over-coming adversity.

If his “plan” doesn’t work, we get to see him spend the remainder of the game with the ol’ arms folded frown. Thing is, the plan is thin and Woodson doesn’t seem capable of thickening it.

Samuel

August 27th, 2009
6:41 am

His plan got us as far as anyone else could have taken us, the 4th spot and “COY” considerations.

Astro Joe

August 27th, 2009
7:06 am

Here’s my point, if a PG is supposed to do 5 things well to be perfect but only does 3.5 of those things well, do you replace him with someone who may do 2.5 things well? If Teague is a better across all facets of the game than Bibby in November, then of course dude should get most of the PG minutes. But if he is only better at defense and penetrating while producing more TOs or while missing more jumpers or while showing less of a basketball IQ, then why would we trade off 2 deficiencies for 3? Some of you all get so caught up in seeing what a guy can’t do that you forget the value that he brings. No one would suggest benching Josh Smith’s defensive abilities because he can’t hit jumpers, because they realize those skills that he DOES have out-weigh the ones that he still needs to development.

I’m not forgetting that Bibby is a poor defender, I just seem to be one of the few who remember all the qualities that he brings to the team that outweigh that weakness.

Sautee

August 27th, 2009
9:01 am

Samuel,

about your August 26, 6:29 p.m. post. You said this: “Give me an example of a rookie or anyone else for that matter who was good enough to start but didn’t.”

I said John Havlicek and you came back with some nonsense about Woody coaching when he was 4 years old.

Do YOU see ANYTHING in your post about limiting the examples to players Woody has coached? No you do NOT!

And you also said this about Jeff Teague: “Who cares about how he’s advertised.”?

Apparently that would be YOU Sam, because there you are at 11:03 listing all of Teague’s strengths and weaknesses.

So I guess you cared A LOT.

Sekou Smith

August 27th, 2009
9:40 am

Not sure what we’re arguing about right now, but Teague was not drafted to start immediately. It’s Bibby’s job. Teague’s just 21 and has only two years of college experience under his belt. The expectations for him are quite different than they were for Acie, who was a four-year college player and much more physically mature by the time the Hawks got him.

Woody’s on trial, as always around here. He knows and understands that all coaches live with that scrutiny. That’s just the way it is.

Daniel

August 27th, 2009
10:00 am

Sekou- we are losing it around here, because of the summer down time.
Are the Hawks going to have any open sessions during training camp?

vava74

August 27th, 2009
10:36 am

Hi believe that Teague will see between 15 to 18 minutes of day light during his first year which should be more than enough for us to have a much more balanced rotation.

We can now distribute the 96 minutes allocated to the back court to 4 players which, no doubtfully will allow us to get to the playoffs fresher (in particular JJ).

jerrywest

August 27th, 2009
11:01 am

Acie had a clear path to starting. He had to beat out a gimpy Speedy, a shorty Lue and old man AJ, but several unfortunate events happened. AJ started whining and Woody listened to him. Acie started playing really well nevertheless. Thats when Hollins (Bobcats) took him out. Acie never got out of Woody’s dog house after that. Like Sekous said, Teague is a 3rd string PG until he proves otherwise. Remember, even great point guards take a few years to learn to play in the NBA. Check Nash/Devon Harris/ Deron Williams stats as rookies.

Ken Strickland

August 27th, 2009
11:01 am

SEKOU-it’s all good. It’s just a bunch of die hard Hawk fans trying to get a die hard Mike Woodson fan named SAMUEL to try and deal with reality. He’s so busy attacking anyone that doesn’t embrace Woodson as Coach of the Year, he can’t see his own senseless logic and contradictions. He also can’t seem to accept or admit there might be the slightest possibility that any opinion he’s expressed could in anyway be wrong.

With the additions of veterans JSmith and JCrawford, and Woodson’s acceptance of rookie PG JTeague, we will likely see him go back to using his bench and expanding his rotation the way he did before Bibby’s arrival. With the successful off season aquisitions we’ve made and the improvement we’ll see from our key players, I think this is going to be an exciting season for us Hawk fans.

Stating The Obvious

August 27th, 2009
11:46 am

Sekou,

what about a trade of Joe Johnson + Horford for Jermaine O’Neal? I think getting a true bigman will do wonders for us

Stating the Obvious

August 27th, 2009
11:56 am

Failing to put my “middle name” in lower-case clinches that the real StO did not make that post. First Hms and now me. I guess some people don’t have anything better to do with their time.

Doug

August 27th, 2009
11:59 am

Stating the Obvious: You must be, of course, being sarcastic with that trade proposal for some reason…only a complete idiot would seriously propose trading Horford for Jermaine O’Neal….much less throwing in Joe Jojhnson??? So in what vein is the sarcasm directed??

Rod from College Park

August 27th, 2009
12:36 pm

Samuel,

Keep it up. I can’t say that I agree, but some of the responses are amazing. Havlick? How about using examples from the last two decades. No wonder these guys never agree with anything I post. They are still living in the 60’s and 70’s. Correct me if I’m wrong but black people were still cosidered to be less than a man at that time. It’s 2009 people. Maybe they think Marvin would have been great in the 60’s and 70’s, that is why the love him so much. Ok, I understand now.

Rod from College Park

August 27th, 2009
12:41 pm

Doug,

He is serious. He OBVIOUSLY is a complete idiot. I realized that long ago. Before you even say something dumb, I don’t have the time or desire to post as you. It’s probably one of you lunchroom buddies.

Astro Joe

August 27th, 2009
12:59 pm

Rod, you seem to think that Marvin is 3/5ths of a players.

Stating the Obvious

August 27th, 2009
1:01 pm

Lololol…wasn’t even me, Rod. You obviously knew that from reading the post right after it. Nice try, though.

And you made a post about the back-and-forth between Sautee and SAmuel and you STILL couldn’t keep from dising Marvin. It’s ok. Go back to your sad pathetic life obsessing about Marvin.

PS – Are you back on your meds? Is Sam gone?

Stating the Obvious

August 27th, 2009
1:16 pm

Why am i still here? nobody likes me

Ken Strickland

August 27th, 2009
1:18 pm

JERRUWEST-Good point. I once thought ALaw was not allowed an opportunity to atart because he wasn’t a prolific jumpshooter. But I realized AJohnson wasn’t a prolific jumpshooter by a long shot, yet he started and got plenty of mins. Then I thought he just wanted jumpshooting PG’s like Bibby and TLue, but he had no problem playing Speedy, when he was able to play. Acie’s DEF certainly wasn’t an issue, when compared to a pair of DEF liabilities like TLue and Bibby. A number of people, including Woodson, used Acie’s injuries as an excuse, but his injuries can’t account for the excessive number of DNP coaches decision that appeared next to his name ehen he was healthy. TLue certainly had as many isssues with injuries as Acie, if not more, and it didn’t stop him from getting heavy mins.

Then I considered it might have been his attitude towards rookie PG’s, but he had no problem starting Royal Ivey as a rookie, although he didn’t play much after the 1st Qtr. So, all that’s left to consider are personal issues towards Acie, which likely reflected the personal issues that developed between Woodson and BK.

Daniel

August 27th, 2009
1:23 pm

Astro Joe- that was hilarious.

Hoops

August 27th, 2009
1:32 pm

We need to move Morris to allow Siler and Hunter more PT. Also, we need a bigger and stronger backup SF.
This is probably a stupid question, but would Portland consider trading Travis Outlaw? Speculation is his playing time is going to be cut. All we could offer them is Morris, Evans, and a second round draft pick. The salaries will work. Any thoughts?

Yupperz

August 27th, 2009
1:45 pm

Blazers wouldnt go for that – some other team will offer them more.

Daniel

August 27th, 2009
1:53 pm

Yupperz and Hoops,
I disagree. I think that is too much to give up for Outlaw. RandMo, whatever, but Evans AND a second rounder? A little steep. Now, if it is a protected second rounder(i.e. not the Houston one, which should be high next year) then maybe.

Daniel

August 27th, 2009
1:56 pm

Ultimately, I am not as down on Maurice as you are Hoops. I know you are not out to get him or anything. I think he was called on for too many minutes in a starting role last year because of Marvin’s injury. In his natural role, coming off the bench, second wave, I think he can be quite effective, even a spot start here or there. He got a little exposed last year, but he was playing if not out of position, certainly out of rotation.

FlashGordon

August 27th, 2009
2:08 pm

What is the word on Randolph Morris progress? He was highly rated years ago and is still young. Is he progressing?

GeeMack

August 27th, 2009
2:50 pm

Ken Strickland

August 27th, 2009
2:07 am

What up Ken? I normally enjoy your post, however the post concerning the Hawks challenging for the 3rd seed is a stretch at best. I think challenging washington for the 4th or 5th seed in the playoffs is more realistic based on the moves all the eastern conference teams have made.

I think the Hawks made some good moves to be able to compete for the 4th or 5th seed in the east. Our competition is not the 3 Eastern elites in bottom 5 playoff positions.

jerrywest

August 27th, 2009
3:16 pm

Sekou,

What do you think about making a poll like this on AJC Sports page?

Poll: Which player will exceed expectations the most in 2009-10

Horford / Josh / Marvin / Crawford /Teague

Mystikal

August 27th, 2009
3:19 pm

From what we know about Woody, it is tough to get out of his doghouse. And with us getting Joe Smith inked and probably another big (even if Siler), don’t think is likely that Randmo will ever see the floor. So whether than just letting him collect checks on the bench another year why don’t we trade him for a second rounder or cash? And for those who haven’t completely given up on him “YET” i’m curious what you’re expecting to see out of him?

Melvin

August 27th, 2009
3:39 pm

And some want to say Josh is over paid well look at this list yahoo have comprise… The top 3 are Knicks players..lol… Dang, Isiah…

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/The-top-10-worst-free-agent-signings-of-the-deca;_ylt=Aqb2rU.tEWFXuHdv1gwecSa8vLYF?urn=nba,185489

Daniel

August 27th, 2009
3:42 pm

Mystikal- if we could trade RandMo for a second rounder then Sund is a genius.

GeeMack- Are you serious? C’mon man I thought you had more faith in your team. We are going to be very good, a deeper team with more veteran leadership. Boston got Sheed, nice move, but who is to say that Garnett will be the same player? Pierce and Allen are getting old.
Clevland- I will believe the Shaq thing when I see it. Talk about an old lumbering front court. Yes, they have LeBron, but I am not sure they are really that improved.
Orlando made the best move in picking up Bass (I will concede that point) and they do get Jameer back, but VC for Turk? that is a push at best. And they WAAAY overpaid for Gortat, that contract is going to come back to haunt them.
We are definitely closer to the top three than the 5-8.

Daniel

August 27th, 2009
3:45 pm

MYSTIKAL- anyone who hasn’t given up on RandMo yet either is still watching his AAU tapes from 6 years ago or are the ASG that have to pay him $800K.
The guy is GARBAGE!!!
Only Lorenzen Wright is worse.

Hoops

August 27th, 2009
4:32 pm

Daniel,

I get the feeling that you don’t like Morris. Hopefully he will be great in his limited playing time this year and earn your respect!

Daniel

August 27th, 2009
4:40 pm

Hoops- what would ever lead you to that idea. I probably dislike Morris as much as Rod hates Marvin or Ken hates Woodson.

GeeMack

August 27th, 2009
4:41 pm

Daniel

What up D? Man you know I love the Hawks! I think we did a good job in getting deeper as a team across the board, but you can’t seriously say these are champioship contender moves.

Say what you will about Bos but the nucleus of PP KG & Ray is still 5 years better than JJ Josh & Al our 3 best players. Our best player JJ would be the 3rd best player in Bos behind KG & PP.

You are correct Orlando overpaid for Gortat & I think it will bite them in the long run. However VC is a much better player than Turk. They are still deep adding Matt Barnes, Bass, AJ will be back Petrius is still there & Gortat, they are just as deep as the Hawks.

Cle. got deeper as well. Don’t just look at the shaq move they also sign AParker & JMoon for perimeter defense. They got deeper than last year and added fire power.

I think the team that will compete with us all year as long as they are healthy is Washington. They are just as talented as us in the starting and their bench is just as deep: adding RFoye & Alberto with Nick Young (who killed us last year) DeShawn & Blatche. That’s a nice mix of veterans and youth.

I never said we didn’t get better and deeper, because I think we did. I just don’t think we have the personnel to leap frog Bos Orl & Cle.

Ken Strickland

August 27th, 2009
5:15 pm

GEEMACK-how many people thought the Hawks would successfully compete for a playoff spot and take Boston to a 7gm series in 08? How many thought we’d successfully compete and win the 4th seed and advance to the 2nd rd in last yrs playoffs? If you operate on the premise that your team can’t successfully compete for a higher goal, it won’t happen.

Orlando lost starters HTurkoglu, RAlston and CLee, and they’ll start the season without starter RLewis. They’ll start the season with 4 new starters from last yrs finals team. In addition, they lost TBattie, JRichardson, BCook and AFoyle. They’ll start the season having to deal with a butt load of changes, adjustments and chemistry issues. And there is absolutely nothing that would indicate BBass will provide more than HTurkoglu, or that VCarter can become a better team player than he’s been in the past.

UGA

August 27th, 2009
6:14 pm

Johan Petro just signed with Denver, scratch him off the list now. Guess we better lock up Collins.

A Quest Called Tribe

August 27th, 2009
6:21 pm

WHY COULDN’T WE SIGN PETRO OR FOYLE. THERE IS SOMETHING CLEARLY WRONG WITH SUND AND ASG BECAUSE THEY LET 2 MORE BIG MEN GET AWAY, JUST LIKE HE LET GOODEN, RATLIFF, AND WILCOX GET AWAY. I DON’T CARE THAT WE SIGNED JOE SMITH. I WANT US TO SIGN EVERY BIG MAN WHO BECOMES AVAILABLE.

UNLESS OUR ROSTER CONSISTS OF 15 MEDIOCRE BIG MEN, RICK SUND IS A FAILURE AND THE HAWKS ARE HEADED FOR THE LOTTERY.

Hoops

August 27th, 2009
7:20 pm

Tribe,

That’s funny! I hope you don’t believe it.

Hoops

August 27th, 2009
7:42 pm

Off of Twitter-Adam Harrington and Corsley Edwards to workout with Hawks. Who are these two players? Size, position, playing experience, age?

Big Ray

August 27th, 2009
8:09 pm

Hoops,

Clearly that was somebody making fun of A Tribe Called Quest, hence the reversing of words in his name.

I see somebody is also making fun of Stating the Obvious and Hms (and who knows who else), or so it would seem. What’s funny is that THIS “someone” doesn’t realize that while you can change the name you use, as well as the email address, you can’t change the IP address.

I could tell you who it is, but there’s really no point. Very few listen to what he has to say anyhow, because it rarely makes sense.

Ah, what the hell, here’s a couple hints: 1)he will post under your name and say that you’re gay, 2)he can’t stand Ken Strickland or Sekou (likes to call them Uncle Tom), 3)he likes to accuse people of being members of the KKK if they disagree with his posts.

Sound like anybody y’all know? :roll:

Big Ray

August 27th, 2009
8:15 pm

Astro Joe ,

Your point is well taken. Clearly Bibby brings qualities to the table that balance out his problems. Many players do, or they wouldn’t be playing much. I think the issue is that there are too many left or right “extremist” lines of thought in some of the posts. Some people want to pencil in Teague as a starter and throw Bibby out the window, with Teague having played nary an NBA game. Others want to say that Teague will amount to nothing. Still others say Teague has no chance in this league because he’s playing for Woody.

Or so the posts go, initially (some people actually believe this stuff though). I think it only stands to reason that if Bibby’s good points didn’t outweigh his bad points, then he wouldn’t be starting or making the kind of money he has in the past (or even now), much less be re-signed here. Likewise, I believe that Teague will show that his good stuff outweighs his bad stuff.

And no way would Woody give Bibby so much credit for regular and postseason success the last two years if he wasn’t getting the job done. Will that stop us from complaining about his defense or if he goes 2-11 in a game? Not anymore than it will stop people from complaining when Josh manages only three rebounds, generates 4 turnovers, and complains 18 times to the same ref while the ball is still in play, LOL!

…or pick your own scenario…

Big Ray

August 27th, 2009
8:27 pm

Sekou,

I believe it was MannyT who coined the term “canniblogging.” Now that Joe Smith is signed, there will be more. And I think we have discussed before how it’s abnormal for the #19 pick to be an instant starter for a 4th seed playoff team. But that won’t stop folks from having their fun, now will it? Heh!

Ed,

I agree. Woody won’t give Teague a free ride. He’s old school and I can appreciate the attitude of “you’re going to have to work for it.” At the same time, it can never hurt when the head coach looks at a rookie player and says, “that guy has the skills to get the job done.” In my mind, that leaves nothing but the work ethic/habits and hopefully a continual clean bill of health on the part of the player.

Ken,

I’m not sure how the Orlando situation will play out. We may have a better shot at Boston than we do Orlando, or even maybe even Cleveland. They are all the big 3 for a reason. The biggest key for us is not necessarily what they have, and what they can do. It’s what kind of organic growth, chemistry, and cohesion we can come up with. It’s really on us. We can do a lot when we play well together. When we don’t, well you see what happens.

GeeMack,

Just to quibble a bit with one point you made. We will not be challenging Washington for the 4th seed. They will have to challenge US . I don’t care what NBA.com or anybody else says. Arenas is not a team-building player, he is a scorer and a spotlight hog. I don’t hate him, I don’t even dislike him. But if people think Vince Carter is me-first, then they haven’t met Agent Zero.

If making the team’s nightly scoring average higher makes the team better, then Arenas qualifies. That’s about it. And I think anybody who automatically pencils that team in ahead of us is a fool. They have a new coach, and a third of their roster is changed. They have very little solid help in the front line, and their backcourt is jammed big time. Nope, we won’t be challenging. They’ll be challenging us. We were last season’s 4th seed. They were nobody.

Big Ray

August 27th, 2009
9:22 pm

Here are some thoughts on Orlando.

As guys like Astro Joe have noted, these guys had quite a gap on us in the win totals, and it would be quite the feat to close that gap.

There was one issue and one name that kept popping up in my mind, even as the playoffs were still on.

First, it cannot be said any plainer than this: Orlando is deep. Deep in ways other teams only wish they were. Dwight Howard is the best center in the game. But behind and beside him are this trio of big bodies: Marcin Gortat, Adonal Foyle, and Brandon Bass. I don’t think I need to go into that at all. Consider that the Magic went to the NBA Finals with two finesse guys in Lewis and Turkoglu as Howard’s main help last season. Add the energetic Bass to the equation and even the sweet-shooting Ryan Anderson and, well…

Then there is the perimeter. Start with Rashard Lewis and Vince Carter. Then add Matt Barnes (and Ryan Anderson). Even Pietrus is good for a few 3s if you give him the ball. The shooter-starved Sixers are probably cursing them as we speak.

No doubt adding Vince Carter adds a 20-30 point threat on a nightly basis. But the offense ran through Turkoglu. And is it just me, or is a team’s defining moments not more evident down the stretch of the season, and in the playoffs? Those defining moments included both Turkoglu and Alston, both of whom are now gone. Leaving one person who will be tasked with that job. Jameer Nelson.

So what of Jameer Nelson? Will he be able to facilitate to all these scorers? Where is the true facilitator on this roster? Anthony Johnson is an okay backup, and Lue figures to play very little, if at all. Where does Jason Williams fit into all of this? I don’t know. Once again, that leaves Nelson, who, before getting injured, was enjoying an all-star invite season, in which he fed off of Howard and the others to the tune of 16 points and 5 assists per.

And that was with a 2-guard platoon of youngster Courtney Lee, and defense-first Mickael Pietrus. Now he has Vince Carter. Oh, and Matt Barnes. Heh. If those guys aren’t shooting, they aren’t helping.

So how will the frayed-haired, loud-mouth Van Gundy make this work? I don’t know. But something tells me that Jameer Nelson just made his first and last all-star game last season. For a team like this to win, Nelson just about has to become a pass-first, shoot 4th point guard. Or this team won’t be as successful as last season. It’s not like somebody else in that starting lineup can or will become a facilitator and do so successfully by sacrificing their own offensive numbers.

Lastly, a warning to Mr. Nelson: This team enjoyed greater success last season than imagined, and they did it without you. Not only did they do it without you, but they did it with a guy who was brought over much like Bibby was for the Hawks in ‘08. It can happen again…

Oh, one more thing. Just what did Nelson do to incur an all-star invitation last year? If 16 and 5 gets you there, somebody has been cheating Mike Bibby for years. That’s right. Mike Bibby.

Mystikal

August 27th, 2009
9:29 pm

What do you guys think Orlando’s starting lineup will be?
I think either:

Nelson Nelson
Vince Vince
Barnes or Lewis
Lewis Bass
Howard Howard

They have a lot of new pieces and will have to run completely new
offense without Turk, but i’ll give them they’re able to put very
versatile lineups on the floor

Mystikal

August 27th, 2009
9:44 pm

About the wizards, remember their success a couple yrs ago was under Eddie Jordan in his Princeton offense. That was largely what made them so successful. I forget who the new coach is, but they will have to learn a new scheme (likely not as beneficial), have to adjust to new teammates, and all that on top of returning from all the injuries. A lot of obstacles to overcome for a team supposed to challenge us for a top seed.

Big Ray

August 27th, 2009
9:54 pm

Mystikal,

Exactly what I’m saying about the Wiz. I think their new coach is Flip Saunders. He’s a good coach, but I don’t know precisely what he can or will do with this squad.

As for Orlando, I think they’ll go with this lineup: Howard, Lewis, Pietrus, Carter, Nelson…..or this one…Howard, Bass, Lewis, Carter, Nelson.

I think the only question will be whether Pietrus starts, or Bass starts. Howard, Nelson, and Carter just about have to be locks as starters.

Samuel

August 27th, 2009
10:04 pm

I don’t believe we have a realistic chance of cracking the top 3. I just think the gap is too wide. I hope i’m proven wrong but I just can’t see it. I think we could however, knock Boston out in a second round series. We’ve proven that we can take them to the limit.

I actually think we will in fact be battling it out with Washington for the 4 spot. Say what you want about what Arenas is or is not but let’s not forget how good he was before his injury. He was playing as well as anybody in the league, including Kobe.

All indications are that he is fully recovered from his injury and is lighter and hungry to get back to that level. “IF” he does and the rest of that crew recovers from injury, you have 3 potential allstars(Arenas, Butler and Jamison) and one of the best young bigs in McGee(IMO) in the league. I really think they panicked and got rid of Jordan too soon. We’ll see what Flip does but this team could be very dangerous.

MannyT

August 27th, 2009
10:30 pm

Ray,

Glad to see that someone remembered canniblogging. Without the chianti & fava beans it just ain’t the same. Sund has done well this summer. Makes up for the lazy summer of 2008.

I can’t wait to see what Woody does with this squad? I am eager to see his in game adjustments. Hopefully they will improve with the additional seasoning of the roster.

Just finished my main fantasy football draft. Now I’ll look around for another league. Any of you hoops junkies got one going?

BWAF

MannyT

August 27th, 2009
10:34 pm

Don’t short sell the offensive wizardry of Flip Saunders ;-)

I think the Hawks can hold the 4th spot, but there will be much more competition from other teams.

That means there should be plenty of good games to see at the Highlight Factory.

BWAF

Mystikal

August 27th, 2009
11:06 pm

Know this cannot happen and is completely pointless, but this would’ve been an awesome lineup for us:

Bibby, Teague (Crawford)
JJ, Crawford (Childress)
Marv, Childress, Gerald Green
Josh, Joe, Hunter
Al, Zaza, Siler

This is if we traded, Mo Evans and Randmo for nothing to clear cap
space to sign Chills. Guy can dream right.

Ken Strickland

August 27th, 2009
11:38 pm

MYSTIKAL-don’t feel like the lone ranger. I often think about how much better we’d be with Chills on our roster. He gets rebounds, assists, plays excellent DEF, plays 3 positions effectively and scored points just like Flip without hogging the ball or having a single play run for him. You don’t see that type of production or player often. People complained about his unusual but accurate jumpshot, but I’d love to see him shooting it again in a Hawks uniform.

rusty

August 27th, 2009
11:49 pm

The key to our success this season this year will be jj. i dont mean how many points he will score but how he is willing to change his game.
we cant afford to have him dominate our offense by constant dribbling.
we need to have our point guard dominate our offense whether it is bibby or teague. this team will not run effiently with joe dominating our offense

Mystikal

August 27th, 2009
11:51 pm

With any player, regardless of the athleticism and skill, it is the heart that separates the great ones. That burning desire that comes from within to be the best, can’t be taught. Not just talking about superstars either, role players can play with that same fire. They may not get the pub that others get but when the moment comes they are ready. We need guys like that, the Robert Horry, Charles Oakley, Derrick Fisher, John Paxons. These type of players are a dying breed.

Ed

August 28th, 2009
1:38 am

Orlando is going to be hurt by not having Hedo. VInce may be a more talented player but Turk was perfect for the system Van Gundy was running. Stan will now have to restructure his offense as Carter doesn’t bring to the table what Hedo did. There have been too many changes not to think Orlando couldn’t stumble this year because of it. As mentioned previously, Rashard missing the first 10 games only adds to the problem of forming a new chemistry for this team.

Big Ray

August 28th, 2009
5:38 am

I remember how good Arenas was. I also remember how good the Wiz were without him, when their other two main guys were healthy and ballin’ their butts off. McGee is a young guy who could be on the rise. But last year was not a revelation. We’ll see how well Arenas meshes with his teammates. That team is NOT the same.

I have respect for Flip, but I seem to recall a lot of jeering and scoffing when people were mentioning him coming here and coaching if Woody got fired.

If he’s not better than Woody, surely we have nothing to fear where Washington is concerned, right? Heh.

Either way, we will face stiffer competition from other teams. Moreso than last year. Especially if teams like Philly can figure out how to make a successful combo out of Iggy and Brand.

vava74

August 28th, 2009
7:54 am

I am sure that Orlando will be a huge flop this season and that they will lower their win total by at least 7/8 wins.

Howard is a physical beast inside but his technical progression has been slow and he has a tendency of disappearing in the crunch time (or being left out by SVG).

Vince is highly overrated, a defensive liability and a major choker. He is not an improvement to Turk’s game, quite the contrary and on the SG slot, I think that the Magic were well served with Courtney Lee, who defensively was very good already, and would give them stellar play for the future, whilst Vince should have only a couple of “good” years in him.

J-Nelson has yet to prove that he can successfully distribute his team’s ball in offense which should be very difficult now that he has someone who will shoot a lot more by his side (Vince) and will want many of the shots he would like to take.

I can see J-Nelson’s stats go down in all parameters with the possible exception of assists where he may have a marginal increase due to need to share the rock more, not really on account of him doing it better.

Offensively, J-Nelson and Vince are a bad combination of “shoot first, past second” players.
Defensively, J-Nelson and Vince are also a bad combination of a tiny point and sub par defensive player in Vince.

His weight can be seen by opposition to JJ in last year’s matchups:

Vince
Against ATL G4 GS4 MPG38.8 FG%.392 3PT.538 FT.731 OR1.0 DR4.0 RPG5.0 ASS5.3 STL1.2 BLK0.5 PPG 22.8

JJ
Against NJ G4 GS4 MPG41.0 FG%.544 3PT.500 FT.783 OR0.8 DR5.3 RPG6.0 ASS6.0 STL2.0 BLK0.0 PPG26.3

It is easy to see that JJ did not have a hard time shooting over Vince, whilst Vince had a hard time shooting over JJ (except from 3-point land).

kwooden1

August 28th, 2009
9:17 am

Orlando, Cleveland and Celtics definitely spent money to try and win this season. There is a lot of pressure on those teams to be better and to win. They were better than the HAWKS last year so on paper they have to be better than the HAWKS this year also. With that said, I don’t see any of those teams with a weapon coming off the bench like Jamal Crawford. The Celtics may bring Wallace off the bench, but he didn’t come to the Celtics to come off the bench! Teams are going to have to leave their best defender on the floor at all times with Jamal coming of the bench! Everyone in the league knows what he can do if he gets hot, so they absolutely have to game plan against him. Add that to the fact that he gets to the line and shoots a high percentage! In the game last year that he scored 50, he shot 18 FTs and made 17. He’s going to get opposing teams 1st and 2nd team bigs in foul trouble, because second team defenders can’t stay in front of him. It seemed to me that last year Flip couldn’t play the scorer role off the bench because he was filling in for Bibby when Acie was either hurt or DNP. Hopefully Woody learns his lesson and lets JC do what he does when he’s in the game. And if you’re worried about his shooting percentage look at the stats, his aren’t the greatest but not the nearly the worst, Barron Davis shot 37.0% on about as many shots in the same amount of games played. Jamal will definitely get better looks against 2nd tier defenders, while guarding less skilled players and having a low post presents in Joe Smith, along with an outside threat in Mo Evans on the floor. I really like how the HAWKS have added players improved the team while still allowing for internal growth.

GO HAWKS!!!

Kevina

August 28th, 2009
9:46 am

http://www.hoopinionblog.com/?gcid=C12289×022&gtkw=Atlanta:+Hoopinion

Al plays bad in first game then better in secone – fouls out in both.

GeeMack

August 28th, 2009
11:09 am

Ken Strickland

I agree with you on the 08 playoff run it was unexpected, but last year I expected the hawks to be better than what they were. We should have won 50 plus instead of 47. We should have dispelled the Heat in 5 games instead allowing a 1 man show to take us to game 7 in the 1st round.

You are correct. That’s why we play the games to see how it pans out. The Hawks will have a good year, but this is not an ECF or a Championship year for this franchise if every team stays healthy including the Hawks.

Ken Strickland

August 28th, 2009
11:40 am

We all witnessed the childish behavior of LeBron after losing to Orlando in last yrs playoffs. If the new acquisitions don’t produce positive results early, what are the chances of him displaying the same childish attitude during the regular season. It could also signal the end of his tenure in Cleveland.

Last yr, we did a good job of overcoming key injuries to Horford, Smoove and Marvin. With the addition of SG/PG Crawford, C/PF JSmith and PG JTeague, it will make it much easier to deal with the possible loss of Bibby, JJ, Smoove, Marvin or Horford. Crawford’s addition in particular would allow JJ to either sit or play limited mins if he suffers another injury to his ankle like last yr.

We may find that our greatest assets will be (1)the organic growth of our young players (2)our versatility (3)our ability to overcome injuries to key players and (4)our preexisting team chemistry, especially among our starters. I believe the Celtics, barring any key injuries, and the Hawks will be better than last yr. I believe Orlando and Cleveland will not be as good, at least record wise.

GeeMack

August 28th, 2009
12:18 pm

Ken Strickland

Bos, Cle, & Orl made changes to play for a championship. The Hawks made changes to have a better regular season and secure another 4th seed in the east.

We can keep hoping our young players make a splash in the league, but there are no indicators that any of them will have a breakout year. Smooves has all the physical tools, but lacks the mental preparation to be a great player.

The Hawks have a lot of good players, unfortunately good player don’t win champioships great players do.

Say what you will about LBJ’s so called “childish behavior” all you want. I will take LBJ action towards the Magic before I let a team mop the floor with me in my own build then go tell them good luck as we did against the Cavs.

JSS

August 28th, 2009
1:01 pm

Dudes, you’ve got to read what that nut Jeff Schultz posted about the Dream… I mean it is WNBA, but that is just outrageous! Off to the night session of the Weltkasse here in Zurich. P.S. to ill-logical, Bolt said yesterday that he is offically going to try the Long Jump, he’s been playing around with it… See you guys later…

Hoops

August 28th, 2009
1:06 pm

GeeMack & Ken Strickland,

I know at this point that we are all speculating on how we think the Hawks are going to do this year based on the roster that each team is signing at this time. I think that the Hawks are going to be a #2 seed in the East when this regular season is over. Cleveland or Boston is going to win their division and one of them will have the best record in the East for the #1 seed. The other one will have the #3 seed. I think the Hawks will beat out the Magic for the Southeast Division Championship and will be the #2 seed. They may not have a better record than Cleveland or Boston, but they will be the #2 seed because they won their division. I predict Orlando will have chemistry problems and it will take them longer than most people realize to get it together. They have lost 3 starters from their playoff team this past season and Lewis will miss the first 10 games. That’s a lot to over come.

If Boston is the #3 seed, lookout! The Hawks could have the home court advantage this time and game seven would be in Phillips Arena!!! Keep those legs fresh Coach Woodson. It will pay off down the stretch and in the playoffs!

JR

August 28th, 2009
1:49 pm

Have I missed what happened to Flip Murray? I know Crawford is supposed to be his upgrade, but is Flip still on the roster? I know we need some size, but Flip seems a better-than-average, off the bench guy who can play three spots adequately, if not spectacularly.

kwooden1

August 28th, 2009
1:58 pm

KevinA there are a view short clips of the FIBA games on YouTube. Al looked healthy, clips weren’t really long enough to see anything else.

terrell barron

August 28th, 2009
2:29 pm

Now you people can get over the loss of David Anderson. lol! With the Joe Smith signing Anderson becomes an afterthought. At least with Smith, we know what we’re going to get.

Ramon

August 28th, 2009
2:31 pm

Geemack, you said good players don’t win championships. But on the Pistons, who was really just great? Rasheed was the only player who had accomplished anything before playing on that team. And then he was a former shell of his athletic self. So a team of good players can win, if they’re dedicated to defense.

Ken Strickland

August 28th, 2009
2:53 pm

GEEMACK-you are correct, a lot of us expected the Hawks to improve on the previous yrs performance, as well as make the playoffs. However, I don’t think anyone expected them to claim the 4th seed and advance to the 2nd rd of the playoffs. I also agree with your comment that the team should have won 50 or more gms instead of 47.

HOOPS-other than the possible disrupting effect Shaq could have on the Cavaliers, there’s one more thing to consider. The Magic soundly defeated the Cavaliers by exposing their achilles heel, their inability to defend the pick and roll. You can bet teams will give them heavy doses of pick and roll until they come up with a solution. Ilgoukas was the main culprit, while Shaq is even worse, and it’s a certainty neither will improve in that area.

The addition of Crawford, Teague and JSmith will make us far more effective at using the pick and roll. Orlando added BBass, who’s a good player with a midrange jumper, but he doesn’t have the OFF range, height and versatility of either RLewis or HTurkoglu. He’ll be an easier OFF/DEF matchup for Smoove. I just don’t see Bass replacing the scoring, assists, OFF flow, OFF facilation, as well as stretching the DEF, like Turkoglu. RLewis will have to move to SF. The 3pt shooting of Turoglu, Lee, Lewis and Alston stretched the DEF and made it much easier for Howard to operate, and much harder for teams to double him. Losing Lee, Alston and Turkoglu will make it harder to stretch the DEF. JNelson can’t shoot 3’s like RAlston, BBass can’t shoot 3’s, and teams will gladly let VCarter shoot 3’s rather than drive the lane. This team will have to adjust to a lot more that just a bunch of new players.

Cleveland just might end up getting knocked off of is high horse, and Orlando just might have made too many changes, which might require too many adjustments, to maintain their superiority over the Hawks.

Ramon

August 28th, 2009
3:16 pm

I think JJ is a great player. I wouldn’t take any other 2 guard over him besides Kobe and Wade, not even Roy. JJ’s performance against Boston 2 years ago in the playoffs was one of the best post season memories in Hawks history, probably since Nique vs. Bird. Ironically, I think if the ball was in his hands less, his scoring average could easily go back up to 25+. And also if he loss 10-15 pounds (kind of like Smooth has done, and Kobe did a few years back), I actually think his defense would be even better.

Big Ray

August 28th, 2009
4:21 pm

The article on Hoopinion is what it is. Here’s the deal: International ball is just so different from NBA ball. I doubt Woody is alarmed in the least bit by what he saw from the boxscore of those games.

How many times did Horford foul out in two seasons in the NBA? Exactly. He will be better this year, not worse. If Woody is doing anything, he’s checking to make sure that Horford doesn’t show up in the injury column. I know I would. Talk about a nightmare….

GeeMack

August 28th, 2009
4:25 pm

Ramon

The NBA will be embarking on it’s 64th season and in 63 seasons you identified 1 team without a great players that won 1 Championship. That is not the route to take when your trying to build a champioship caliber team. In my years of watching the NBA here are the Characteristics of a Champioship team 1) Great rebounding team 2)Play very good TEAM defense 3)They have a great 1/2 punch or a very good big three combo 4) Solid bench 5) A good defensive minded coach.

Listen. To those of you that will say the 94 Houston team didn’t have a trio or 1/2 punch; that was the exceptiion not the rule. Same with 04 Pistons those are the exceptions. The proven formula wins out 90% of the time.

The Hawks made a lot of very good moves this off season,which should translate into some additional win during the regular season. However we did not take the steps neccessary to win a championship. I think Orl, Bos, Cle, LA, & the Spurs made those moves.

GeeMack

August 28th, 2009
4:47 pm

Hoops,

I love the fan support, but sometimes in order to get to the next level (for the Hawks it’s: CHAMPIONSHIP)you have to look at yourself objectively. Boston has gotten older, but Boston has also gotten better and deeper than 2 years ago. Listen Boston have dominated the Hawks the last 2 years to suggest that Boston couldn’t win in Atlanta in the playoffs is ludicrous. Listen Boston has beat the Hawks 4 out of 7 time in Atlant the last 2 seasons, and are 7 -0 against us in Boston during that same time period. That wouldn’t instill confindence in me as a Hawks fan.

niremetal

August 28th, 2009
4:57 pm

Buona sera, gents. Here comes a long awaited niremetal rant.

GeeMack,

I don’t disagree. But “great” players don’t grow on trees. The Hawks, to my knowledge, have not passed up a transcendent talent on the level of Kobe or LeBron or even D-Wade in the past two decades. So what was Sund supposed to do? And by what standard did Cle and Orl make “championship-winning moves?” Do you really think Shaq is still a “great” player? And by what measure is Vince a great player if JJ is not? And if neither of those are “great” players, then how is trading for them a “championship-winning move” and trading for Jamal Crawford is not?

And you think Pierce is better than JJ? Pierce does one thing well: Score. He’s not even “very good” at any other measurable aspect of the game, and he has never been a “do the little things guy.” He still doesn’t play good defense and he isn’t half the playmaker that JJ is. Oh, and remember how good JJ was when teams weren’t double teaming him? Yeah, well imagine him playing alongside Ray Allen and KG (even a 75% KG) on offense. And imagine him not having to guard opposing PGs on defense half the time. The Celtics would win 68 games.

And Kevin Garnett? If we’re talking pre-injury KG, then yeah. But now? I would be shocked if KG played 55 games this year, and he’ll probably be playing at 75% for a lot of those.

And how is VC better than Turk? Because he scores more? I honestly think that’s almost your sole criterion for judging a player’s worth based on your comments. Turk was a PERFECT fit for SVG’s system. VC? We shall see. THAT is the important question.

Did you really just say that Jamario Moon was signed for perimeter defense? Man, what league are you watching? He hasn’t played defense a day in his life. Wade even called him out on that publicly.

As for Washington…you do notice that every player you named is a perimeter player, right? Washington will score, but they will get annihilated on defense.

Oh, and co-sign Ken’s 11:40.

Ramon

August 28th, 2009
5:15 pm

Geemack, we’re under to different assumptions of which level JJ is in then. Because I feel as if he is a great player. And although you say that Smooth doesn’t have the mental preparation to be a great player. I would point out that he is probably one of the most clutch players in this division (not only on the team). Does he push his limits? Of course he does, the same way that Lebron shoots too many 3s, Wade goes 1 on 4 and more. Another thing is, I would bet that Smooth stats are just as good or better than R. Lewis’s stats were at this point in his career. And Lewis was the #1 option. So if you would consider Lewis already a great player, but don’t see where Smooth will develop into that with in the next 2 seasons. Then we just disagree on that.

The wild card for Orlando was an overrated PG in Nelson. And that showed when he was in the line up during the Finals. And for what it’s worth, we all know Ray Allen is overrated. He scores 17 ppg, and gives up 23 ppg. Also, know that Smooth numbers are better than what Turk numbers were when he was that age.

I will agree with your 5 statements about championship teams (except for the Lakers didn’t really play great defense when Shaq was there). I just feel like the Hawks last season had #2 and #5. And I think the off season acquisitions will help with the bench, which will be shown in the rebounding. One thing I point out to is just this time last year, Gasol and Odom was getting more hate thrown their way than what people on this blog throw at Smooth. The Lakers are a perfect team of building from with in. Because Ariza and Gasol were the only players (and Fisher) who got playing time on this Finals team, that wasn’t on the roster when they were put out in round 1 by Phoenix. I truly believe with the exception of Bibby and Joe Smith, every one on this roster is still on the right side of the mountain with their growth still not peaked out.

Ken Strickland

August 28th, 2009
6:26 pm

One other thing that needs to be done to improve the Hawks this yr is abandon the primary us of the switching DEF. We switched to it last yr and our points allowed went up and the rebounding averages of our 2 primary rebounders, Smoove and Horford, went down. Smoove’s blocks went from 2.80 to 1.61 while playing the same MPG, although Horford’s blocks went from .94 to 1.42 while playing fewer MPG.

If we play a more traditional DEF and keep Smoove closer to the basket like before, he can increase his blocks to 07-08 levels. If Horford can maintain last yrs BPG average, we can do a much better overall job of protecting the basket. They should also be able to regain their previous yrs RPG totals. Add that to Marvins improved rebounding and we should be much stronger on the boards.

Stating the Obvious

August 28th, 2009
6:57 pm

Dammit Ken you used “Marvin” and “improved” in the same sentence. Now SamRod will show up again…

The Truth

August 28th, 2009
7:04 pm

I find all this talk about salivating to become the #2 or #3 seed over Orlando or Boston amusing. If we are playing odds with speculations at this point, it is higher then likely that we will finish #4 or #5 seed. So, for the sake of argument, if we assume the Cavs are in the Eastern finals and stay at #1 that would mean a repeat match-up with them in the second round if the Hawks are as good or better as we think they are. Last year, we failed short in the playoff because of inconsistent performances from our stars, injuries, a bad team match-up and a weak bench. This year some of those problems maybe corrected because of our acquisitions. Injuries will still be an unknown. The X factor will be whether our additions and subtractions will be enough to over-come the Cavs additions and subtractions. Since the Cavs was already the biggest team in the east, adding Shaq may not have addressed their weakness. Basically, their two combo-guard line-up with Lebron in their perimeter-oriented back-court was not the answer to beat Orlando last year where Howard dominated the paint. Their strategy to add Shaq was to defensively counter Howard but the side-effects will be unknown. So, adding Shaq has nothing to do with the Hawks but has everything to do with beating Orlando. Last year, their frontline was already sufficient to beat us with our aforementioned problems. However, the few times we have beaten the Cavs, was not because we dominated the paint; it was primarily because we out produced them offensively in the back-court. That opportunity will only get better with the addition of Crawford, Teague and GI Joe. Adding Shaq will have no effect on that opportunity. So, perhaps this constant quest to become bigger on the frontline maybe over blown; maybe we just need to play more athletic and consistent basketball. Other then Lebron, overall, it will be a match-up between diesel trucks and sports cars if Woody has the right vision.

Kevina

August 28th, 2009
7:33 pm

The Hawks have learned to win at home. A few against the best teams but mostly the wins were against poor and mid level teams. We could argue if we are in the top ten teams in the NBA but there is know way we are in the top 7. To reach that elite status we have to learn to play on the road. There is no way we are ready for a championship.

The ownership is still losing 20 million a year. I don’t see them going into lux tax to chase another high dollar free agent.

Samuel

August 28th, 2009
7:38 pm

Shaq made All NBA last year. That means he was one of the best in the best league in the world. I’d say that is great. You can be very good and make the AllStar team but you have to have a “great season” to make All NBA.

Ramon

August 28th, 2009
8:40 pm

Kevin, name the 7 teams you take over the Hawks. Because I’m not sure I would. LAL, SAS, Den, Orl, Cle, and Bos are understandable, but who else? I wouldn’t take Dallas over Atlanta. The western teams get more wins because the gap between the 8th and 9th teams are wider. And besides Iverson, who is the other high dollar free agent still available? Petro, Collins, and the rest being named are all for the veteran’s minimum.

Samuel

August 28th, 2009
8:43 pm

Ken+ niremetal = clueless

Ramon

August 28th, 2009
8:49 pm

Guys, here is a question. Would you trade Marvin and Horford for Melo?

Samuel

August 28th, 2009
9:01 pm

Ramon,

You’re not serious are you?

Ken Strickland

August 28th, 2009
9:34 pm

SAMUEL-Shaq had a very good season and made 3rd string All NBA. He made it partly by default since 2 normal competitors, PGasol and AStaudamire, were moved to PF, and he benefited from playing in Phoenix’ system. His last yr in Miami his numbers were 14.2PPG, 7.8RPG, 1.64BPG and 1.4APG. Those numbers were comparable to Hordord’s 11.5PPG, 9.3RPG, 1.47BPG and 2.4APG, and Horford was our 5th OFF option. Playing in Cleveland’s system, Shaq will do well to equal Ilgoukas’ totals of 12.9PPG, 7.5RPG, 1.29BPG and 1.0APG.

I’m not sure the Magic will get more from VCarter than they got from Turkoglu. They both played:

MINS FG 3PT RB AST PTS

VINCE 36.8 1345 392 5.1 4.7 20.8
TURKOGLU 36.6 1025 376 5.3 4.9 16.3

Vince is a volume shooter, and he doesn’t a certain number of shots, he won’t be nearly as effective as Turkoglu was. Vince’s shooting percentage is slightly higher than Turkoglu’s was, but that’s because he drives to the basket more and gets a lot of high percentage dunks.

Samuel

August 28th, 2009
9:57 pm

Ken’

Stop it please. Shaq is one of the best of all time and had one of his best years last season. You bring up one season where the man was injured most of the season and try to compare him to “freekin Al Horford”. Dude, you are worse than I thought.

Shaq vs Horford. Not even worth discussing. Again, get a clue.

He benifited from the PHX system. What system was that?

Again, you compare a “pretty good” NBA player(Turk) to a probable 1st ballot HOF player. Sure VC may be in the twilight of his career but no way is Turk anywhere close to VC in any category. You say VC is a volume shooter but his FG% is still higher than Turk. Your excuse, “he gets a lot of dunks”. You really reaching. VC>Turk, anyway you look at it.

UGA

August 28th, 2009
10:26 pm

Well, in looking way ahead, it looks like the Nuggets will be without JR Smith against us on Nov. 7.

jhan

August 28th, 2009
11:06 pm

VC > Turk is absolutely true. But is he a better fit for the team?

Ramon

August 28th, 2009
11:12 pm

I will say Vince still does average better than 37% from beyond the arc. That’s pretty good.

KevinA

August 28th, 2009
11:20 pm

Ramon,
W
we have yet to beat. Portland, Utah, Phoenix, Houston, Dallas, and New Orleans on any kind of a consistent basis. Personally I would pick Dallas to be that 7th team. The other 4 teams are at the Hawks level or better until we prove different. Without much injury we might pick up 4-7 wins against this group. But there is now way we can go on the road and consistently beat these teams. Last year was the first time we really joined this group as a mid level team. When was the last time we took a Texas trip and expected to win one game? We are lucky to be in the East.

Roy isn’t signed, David Lee, Sessions, Nate Robinson,(previously Chills) I am not saying it is possible to get any particular individual player. But we do not look at FA like say a Mark Cubin does. He is constrained by rules, not money. We are constrained by both.

Ramon

August 28th, 2009
11:36 pm

Kevin, the Hawks beat New Orleans the one time they played them last season, and went .500 against Portland, Utah, Houston, Dallas and Phoenix. And the two losses to Houston and Dallas was on a Texas swing where they played San Antonio in the same trip. There aren’t hardly any teams who would have won in that situation. On top of that, Houston’s top THREE players will not be suiting up in Houston uniforms any time soon (if any in the case of Yao and McGrady). For a team that can’t rebound, both Smith and Horford had 12 rebounds against Utah in the win. And Phoenix will have a hard time replacing the production of Shaq and Richardson (suspended). And Steve Nash is the only point guard in the league who plays defense worse than Bibby. So I would take the Hawks over the teams you mentioned. Portland only have one player who can create offense, and that’s Roy. The Hawks do have Joe, Bibby, Crawford, and Smith who can go for 25+ on a night. Oh and I forgot, Dallas just lost their best rebounder (and toughest player) in Bass this off season as well.

Ramon

August 28th, 2009
11:40 pm

Kevin, Roy is signed. Lee and Sessions would be redundant when Smooth (Lee) and Crawford (or Teague) is here. Robinson is having problems convincing the Knicks that he’s worth the qualifying offer after his arrest last week. And truthfully, neither one of those three would be good enough to start on this team. And Lee truly is a system guy.

Rufus1

August 29th, 2009
12:23 am

One Elite Team

Boston is the only Elite team in the east. Look at Clevelands Roster and tell me that is a championship roster. Last year they were on a mission(like Chicago when Jordan retired). LBJ will learn what Kobe learned..you need a serious number 2(Not old old old Shaq). 2-4 is wide open.. and if we did not have some many injuries last year, we would have won 50+ games.

The NBA is about 2 things, Match-ups and Desire. We match-up well with Cleveland and Orlando..now all we needs is more desire.

PS Jamal Crawford is a good as Mo williams.

Big Ray

August 29th, 2009
12:40 am

GeeMack,

I disagree with one thing. The next level for the Hawks is not Championship. It’s bonafide contender. We just made the playoffs two years in a row after a decent drought. We made the 2nd round (barely) of the playoffs this last season, but were swept easily by a better team, due in part to injuries. We need to be a team that can contend in our own conference before we can be called a championship contender. Just my opinion, though.

Big Ray

August 29th, 2009
12:52 am

Shaq made all-nba last year. So? Phoenix didn’t even make the 8th seed, Jameer Nelson made the all-star team, and Mike Brown won COY . What’s the point?

Ramon

August 29th, 2009
1:26 am

Big Ray, you know the interesting thing about this championship contender thing. Every single team that is consider a Finals contender (SA, LAL, Cle, Den, Orl, Bos) each team’s best player was drafted by that team. Yet, everyone is asking for a block buster move, not realizing that the in house talent is what wins championships.

Big Ray

August 29th, 2009
1:36 am

Ramon,

I kinda agree and disagree. L.A. did not draft Kobe, Charlotte did. They did trade for him, though. Boston traded for KG, but did draft Pierce. Cleveland, Orlando, and San Antonio definitely qualify. Denver would as well, unless you think Billups is better than Carmelo. I don’t. I just think Billups was more important.

Big Ray

August 29th, 2009
1:37 am

Ramon,

Also, going by that way of thinking, then JJ must not be our best player. We didn’t draft him. But we did draft Smith, Horford, and Williams. I think that part of that in-house talent will definitely be what gives us a shot at contending for the title. The question is, will all of it be here when that happens?

Big Ray

August 29th, 2009
1:43 am

Still, the point that in-house talent is the way to go, is well taken.

We’ll find out in the next couple of years if we have that kind of talent, or if we’ll have to make a significant move or two.

Wow.

Nate Robinson arrested. Jason Richardson and JR Smith suspended by the League for various charges.

Say what we want about our guys, but they stay out of trouble. They don’t get suspended for chunks of the season because they can’t behave out on their own.

Let’s hear it for our guys keeping their act together.

Ken Strickland

August 29th, 2009
2:21 am

SAMUEL-you seem to have serious issues with anyone who disagrees with you or offers opinions that challenge your obviously limited basketball IQ. What Shaq, Vince or any other great player accomplished in the past has nothing to do with what they’re capable of accomplishing today. If that’s the case, we should try to sign HOlajuwon.

You seem to develop attachments to certain players and fantaxize about them being as good today as they were 8-10 yrs ago. Otherwise, how can you compare last yrs stats of VCarter and HTurkagle and make the statement, “SURE VC MAY BE IN THE TWILIGHT OF HIS CAREER, BUT NO WAY IS TURK ANYWHERE CLOSE TO VC IN ANY CATEGORY”. Well, based on last yrs stats, if VCarter is a 1st ballod HOF then HTurkaglu has to be a 1st ballot HOF. After all, the only thing that counts are the numbers a player puts up today, not the pts he put up in the past that made him a 1st ballot HOF.

QB BFarve is a 1st ballot HOF, but he didn’t earn that distinction by leading the NFL in INT’s, like he did the last 2yrs in Green Bay. He certainly didn’t earn that dinstinction by falling apart the last few gms of every season, like he did with the Jets last season. None of the MVP awards or SB victories he’s earned in the past has helped him overcome his mediocrity over the last few yrs.

Big Ray

August 29th, 2009
2:44 am

Ken,

What are you doing up, still? Go to bed! I have an excuse. I’m on night shift for a few months… ;)

Ramon

August 29th, 2009
3:19 am

Big Ray, you’re right about the Lakers, Kobe was a draft day trade, sorry. And I still very much believe after this season Smooth will be the best player on this team.

Big Ray

August 29th, 2009
4:47 am

Ramon,

I can’t lie. If that happened I’d be thrilled.

niremetal

August 29th, 2009
5:04 am

KevinA

August 29th, 2009
5:33 am

Ramon,

You do remember we were 16-25 on the road. You do realize of the mid level teams I listed had a better record except for Phoenix, who had one less loss. Out of the top 13 top opponents we won one series against NO. Who I would consider mid level.

If Crawford/Teague/Joe Smith play better than Flip/Solo, that will help. On paper ZaZa, Smith, Horford, and Williams will all improve with a year of experience added to their youth. We cannot afford a let down by JJ and Bibby and expect better team play from them. We had plenty of warts and yet found a way to become a mid level team.

I think we have a good opportunity to move up in the ranks of the mid level teams. But we need Marvin/Josh to have some kind of break out year. Who knows, maybe Al will make a big move in skill level.

There are ways to improve on last season without having to beat the top and mid level teams. Examples include, NJ 1-3, NY 1-2, Philly 1-2, GS 1-1, and Mem 1-1. We went 4- 9 with these teams. We should have went 8-5. That gets us to 51 wins. .

I predicted 50-54 wins for this year. Would this make us a contender – sure, an elite team? I don’t think so.

I think you missed my point about FA and money. If we would be willing to bust the cap and the rules were the only consideration. I bet would be we would have chased other players at the beginning of trade season.

Samuel

August 29th, 2009
7:57 am

Ray,

So you’re saying that making “All NBA” is no big deal. So I guess: Gasol, Anthony,C Billips and T Parker had mediocre seasons, huh.

Again, I hear all this “Talk”. We’ll see when the Big One comes to town. Horford and the rest of the NBA will have no choice put to “Hack” the Old Man like they have the past 16 years. Not play defense but “Foul Him” like Sissies.

Samuel

August 29th, 2009
8:07 am

Nir,

I’ll comment. It’s “F” ed up. I will be very interested in seeing what Woody has to do to gain an extension. Hopefully the ASG realizes like anybody else that knows basketball that we have Mid-Level NBA Talent. Nothing more and nothing less.

I know Woody is close to the players and would hate to leave but if I were him I would be scouting around for insurance purposes. It wouldn’t surprise me at all for these “clowns” to pull a fast one and hire some commentator or “retread” like PJ Carlisimo or somebody.

macaroni tony

August 29th, 2009
8:37 am

I have never been a number one fan of Woody, but I understand where he’s coming from. The man always has to coach with his back against the wall. Without injuries this team would have one at least 50 games last year, so I do think that he should get a contract extension. With one more big, and another guard (MWest) I think that we’re going to get over the hump this year.

Also I don’t think that the so called big three teams will win those 60 games like they did last year. The east has gotten stronger. Toronto, Wizards, Bulls, 76ers (with a healthy Brand) will play stronger and wouldn’t get walked on. If the Hawks win 50 games then that would be great.

Astro Joe

August 29th, 2009
9:58 am

Samuel, according to many around here, any coach would be a better option over Woody… as long as they stop iso Joe and give the 17th guy on the bench some playing time. Woody will be fine, I’m less certain about the Hawks and bringing in a coach…because it doesn’t seem likely that we’ll be replacing Woody with Doug Collins, Mike Fratello or Jeff Van Gundy. More likely, PJ Carlesimo, Bob Hill or Sam Mitchell.

A Tribe Called Quest

August 29th, 2009
10:15 am

“Any other coach probably would have been extended without a doubt.”

-Woodson

WTF is this? Some conspiracy theory? He has no ability to teach an offense and overplays the starters. That’s probably why he doesn’t have an extension

SMFH

MannyT

August 29th, 2009
10:23 am

@Nire,

You know I have never been a big fan of Woody the coach, although I do think he is a good guy. I am still waiting to see something better when he needs to make adjustments during the game.

That Yahoo article represents 2 big themes.

First, the economic impact has spread to the coaching ranks. Much of that article showed several other teams being penny pinchers. They selected plan B coaches over plan A coaches due to financial considerations. It happens in the real working world. Ask some folks in HR what they are paying people to take jobs this year compared with 2 years ago.

Second, the economics puts Woody in a squeeze. If they did offer something, it could be lower than he expects…and in this rare instance, I’ll even say it might be lower than he deserves if he continues to coach here on his 3rd contract deal.

Sund did not bring Woody to Atlanta. If he signs another contract here, Woody becomes Sund’s choice. Your boy Rick may have other ideas in his rolodex mind.

It might be best for all to play out this year. If Woody does a good job (i.e. about the same as this year), then the team should give him a good contract. If the ownership does not step up, then Woody is right to walk away for a better offer as an unrestricted free agent…no hometown discount should be expected.

All that said, if I were in charge of that circus, I think I’d put out feelers with his agent to see what he wants. If it is reasonable, just do the deal. If not, let him play out the last year for big risk/big reward.

Odd to write it as I was squarely in the BK corner on letting him go in 2008. Business decisions should not be personal, so I can change my mind after reviewing additional data. A 4th seed and the 2nd round of the playoffs is close to the best that the Atlanta Hawks have ever been. That is worth something in my book.

BWAF

MannyT

August 29th, 2009
10:26 am

AJ,

Depending on the state of the economy and the situation around bringing back JJ, worse case scenario might have the Hawks 2010-2011 coach for game 3 coming from a GA Lottery halftime promotion.

Get there early to sign up. I hear coach for a game pays well for regular folk ;-)

BWAF

ILL-logical

August 29th, 2009
10:34 am

At the begining of his tenure Mr. Sund sat down with woodson and stated plainly that he would judge the coach’s performance based on two criteria: winning and player development. At the end of last season , Mr. Sund stated that he would have been glad to get into the playoffs even with a 37-45 record(the previous year’s record).

This suggests to me that player development was at least an equal consideration in Mr. Sund’s evaluation of Woodson’s performance. So that raises the question of whether or not Woodson met that standard in a satisfactory manner ?

I believe the performance of the bench players during the playoffs when injuries took their toll on several of the starters was telling. The guys were clearly unprepared and in some instances not in the best condition. Could they have gotten more time during the season; was it their resposibility to always be ready, as Woodson is so fond of repeating when queried on the subject, or were their skill levels so low that they were not able to produce ? Whatever answer anyone else comes up with, Mr. Sund clearly drew some conclusions.

Woodson has done a very creditable job under adverse circumstances in Atlanta.Any review of the team’s success must include his performance in it. As far as the economics of the NBA cited in the above referenced article , with the extra $2 million from the Anderson trade with Houston, the team can afford a fairly good coach. The question is whether or not they believe Woodson is that coach?

Time and results will tell but Woodson is not doing himself and his staff any favors by whining in the press and throwing Josh under the bus,again.At the end of the day , Woodson’s fate is tied to his willingnes to adapt and not continue to allow his ego to prevent him from making the right choices. Josh Childress might still be here if he believed that Woodson would allow him to compete faily for the staring job, he believed his play had earned. In some people’s eyes ,winning is good but developing devloping talent is equally good.

Hoops

August 29th, 2009
10:43 am

Hoopshype is reporting that Jason Collins could join the Hawks soon. I’m afraid that if the Hawks sign Collins before training camp, they will not sign Siler. Why would they sign Siler if they have Josh, Horford, Joe S, Zaza, Morris, and Collins ahead of him? If they do sign Collins, then that tells me that the Hawks coaches don’t think that Siler can contribute.

MannyT

August 29th, 2009
11:09 am

@Hoops

If you had to produce NOW, would you want the guy who is better now, or the guy who would be better 2-3 years from now?

I’d like to see the Hawks add Siler. I think he has potential. The Hawks’ lack size and bulk to play against the bigger teams. I’d guess that Sund & Woody agree that Collins & Smith will give them more useful minutes against Shaq, D Howard, etc. than Siler will now.

If Siler was ready to contribute, he would have been drafted. He went to pre-draft workouts, so you know the NBA GMs knew to get tape on him before the draft. Big men usually get the benefit of the doubt in the draft. GMs also got to see Siler in NBA Summer League because he played with the Minnesota team.

I hope he makes the team, but adding Collins will make it harder for Siler & Mario unless they decide to start with a bigger roster.

BWAF

Ramon

August 29th, 2009
11:10 am

Hoops, the Hawks could still sign Siler and Hunter (or West). But wouldn’t you prefer to have the Hawks sign Collins for the beginning of the season, and be able to send Siler to NBDL for playing time. Siler may be a good prospect, but he is still a prospect who *didn’t* get drafted by any team even though he was 7 feet. I know he played at a small school, but so did con artist Michael Olowakandi. Besides the more big bodies, the more the Hawks can use to throw in a trade deadline deal if needed.

Stating the Obvious

August 29th, 2009
11:15 am

I agree with MannyT. All Siler got was a training camp invite or invites. no team drafted him and obviously no team has offered him a contract or else he wouldn’t be settling for a training camp invite. If a young 7foot guy isn’t getting any commitments from any NBA team, that tells you what the NBA teams think of his potential.

Name me 10 undrafted guys in the past decade who are rotation players in the NBA now. Name me 3 undrafted big men who turned out to be rotation players EVER.

Samuel

August 29th, 2009
11:20 am

Ill,

I agree somewhat but who is this “fairly good” coach that hasn’t already landed a job with all the openings recently. And if he’s “fairly good” how will that take us to the “NEXT LEVEL” as some here suggest that another coach could do?

Hoops, I really hope we don’t sign another “scrubb” until after training camp. Make them go head-to-head to earn the spot. If Collins is better than Siler,ok, but let’s give the young guy a chance.

ILL-logical

August 29th, 2009
11:26 am

JSS,
Thanks for the Bolt update. Will he go for 30′?

Stating the Obvious

August 29th, 2009
11:27 am

And Samuel,

First, you said Woody got COY consideration. Brah, he didn’t even finish in the top 5th of the league’s coaches in COY voting. And getting COY consideration from you doesnt count.

Second, Woody isn’t getting an extension because he hasn’t earned it yet. The Hawks beat a horrible Miami team in 7 games (losing three of those horribly) and got destroyed in 4 games by Cleveland,. The Hawks didn’t even put up a fight in that series. And all his starters were out of gas because Woody ran them in to the ground.

Before, Woody had the excuse – even if it was a BS excuse – that the Hawks weren’t deep enough and didn’t have enough veterans or whatever. Well now the Hawks have the veterans. Now he has no excuse for overplaying his starters so much that the Hawks are sitting ducks come playoff time. Now he faces the test.

By the way, if Woody is a COY, explain to me what his offensive scheme consists of. And why is it that all he can say during timeouts is something like “play harder” and “crash the boards.” As I said in the last thread, my high school coach could do that. A guy capable of coaching a contender (which is the next step for the Hawks) should be able to do more.

KevinA

August 29th, 2009
11:36 am

Sekou talked about players signed after training camp. When does camp start and end and do we know who will be invited? Collins was a suprise. He is big but dosen’t seem to be able to rebound. What would be the point. It is a shame like Chills/Flip we lost Solo. For a 5th big he would have been great. If not for the games but for practice. I can understand Joe Smith, a good player for a cheap price. But good talent at a young age is tough to lose.

Hoops

August 29th, 2009
11:44 am

The trade that I would like to see the Hawks pursue is to offer the Blazers R. Morris, Evans and possibly their 2nd round draft pick for Travis Outlaw. That would give the Blazers a PF-C that they are looking for and another draft pick. The Hawks need a bigger and stronger backup SF with an expiring contract (Outlaw’s expires after this coming season)and they would still have the Rockets 2nd round draft pick left. Remember they received that pick in the Andersen trade.

UGA

August 29th, 2009
12:00 pm

I really do think the Hawks should extend Woody and the staff. The Hawks have not underachieved, they finished 4th where they should have. If they finish 4th again this year, that would probably be about right.

As for Collins, I did watch him against the Rockets. One thing that I do like about him is that everytime a shot went up, he had Yao boxed out and Yao had no chance to get a board. I think we’d much rather have Collins in over Morris. We can still sign Siler, we can sign up to 15.

Hoops

August 29th, 2009
12:01 pm

Manny T,

I agree. If you are Woodson and you need to win now, I guess you would sign Collins. I just wish the Hawks would hold off and get Collins to come to camp and compete with Siler. But, I guess another team would grab him up before then.

I hope the Hawks can find a place for Siler. I think he is a project that we need to give time to develop. If the Hawks could move Morris in a trade, that would open up that roster spot for Siler. I still think they should pursue the trade with the Blazers sending Morris and Evans for Outlaw that I have been promoting.

KevinA

August 29th, 2009
12:01 pm

I can only assume some financial decisions can only be made after JJ resigns. Some decisions may be made after the first 20 games considering the interplay and effectiveness of combinations of Teague, Crawford and Bibby. If Teague looks to be a two three year project there will be pressure to improve the defense presence at the pg spot. Can Josh, Marvin and Al improve enough to supply the points to make up for a Bibby/Crawford replacement? That is the million dollar question.

KevinA

August 29th, 2009
12:03 pm

Hoops I like that idea.

UGA

August 29th, 2009
12:04 pm

Another thing with Collins is that he is a veteran who could provide some more leadership that this team needs.

A Tribe Called Quest

August 29th, 2009
12:05 pm

Stating the Obvious,

Ben Wallace was never drafted.

I can’t believe people want Siler over Jason Collins. Wtf? That’s like taking Mario West over a slightly worse Morris Peterson. Wtf is wrong with some of you ppl

Stating the Obvious

August 29th, 2009
12:33 pm

ATCQ,

Yeah, I knew people would bring up Wallace, so that’s one. I checked on Wikipedia and saw Brad Miller too, so that’s two. Mikki Moore is a stretch since he has been a scrub for almost his entire career (and still is, I think) and was only a rotation player for a couple years in horrible Sacramento. Similar deal with Mbenga – and I don’t really count foreign players since they probably don’t get scouted by most teams.

I didn’t see any others, at least in the time since the draft had two rounds. So among undrafted American bigs we’re talking 2 good players and 1 borderline rotation player in 20 plus years. That ain’t much.

Sorry, but fat man’s a scrub.

cp

August 29th, 2009
12:42 pm

Collins is terrible. I have never liked his game. I would rather get Melvin Ely than Collins. I say we still need a back up sf I just don’t like Mo guarding the bigger guys because he gets abused time after time. I also hope we stop with the switching on defense. Teams would just make sure they get their best 2guard or sf matched up on Bibby and score at will. It was also forcing our bigs to come and defend on the perimeter which cost us a lot of rebounds and left the lane wide open.

Ken Strickland

August 29th, 2009
12:51 pm

Everyone keeps talking about who the Hawks will being in if Woodson isn’t retained. Who says anyone will be brought in? His replacement could come from within, which would certainly dispel the issues of adjustments. Assistant LDrew has run all of our summer league programs and conducted all of our player workouts, which means he’s worked more closely with the players than anyone else. He was an NBA PG that played an uptempo style his entire career and relied on speed, quickness and penetrating ability for his success.

Woodson wasn’t particularly athletic, was at his best playing more slow paced half court OFF. However, he could shoot a basketball with anyone, was fundamentally sound, and made few mental or physical mistakes. I think his coaching philosophy reflects his playing experience, as well as the obvious influences of his mentors. If LDrew’s coaching philosophy is in anyway influenced by his playing experiences, we would play an uptempo style of OFF, and our guards, especially our PG’s, would do more penetrating and dishing than 3pt shooting. I can’t remember how good he was as a jumpshooter.

All of this is really premature. Woodson is the HC that will lead the Hawks into the upcoming season and we need to think in those terms. It will be his decision making and direction that will determine the overall limits of our teams success. I don’t see any reason why we shouldn’t sign Siler to the practice squad. His size and physicality would be an asset when practicing.

jhan

August 29th, 2009
1:04 pm

Woody has earned the right to be in the drivers seat for being the next Hawks head coach. The team has improved every year & so has Woody. This year should be the determining factor for his extension. IF the Hawks make the 2nd round again, have a good showing, then I feel Woody will be resigned.

I don’t feel sorry that Woody needs to prove himself this year before he gets an extension. He should take a look around this country & see exactly how many people are in the same situation – and they aren’t looking for multi-million dollar guaranteed contracts either. Many would be very happy to keep their $30K/year job for another year.

If everyone played/coached for yearly contracts do you think the overall play in this league would be better?

KevinA

August 29th, 2009
1:06 pm

I think about the only thing we can all agree on is our team is better and has more options. Why would it not be prudent to see what Woody does with this new potential. He has been given a better team. The team gaining a few wins and Woody getting a raise is in the bank unless he can’t keep the team together. If I was Woody I would ask for Flip, just in case. Hunter would be the next keeper and a big to fill out the ranks.

Hoops

August 29th, 2009
1:34 pm

If the Hawks fill all 15 roster spots (I would only sign 14 myself), then they have 5.9M to sign 4 players. Those 4 players could be Collins, Siler, Hunter, & West. I hear Korolev has signed to play in Russia this coming season. If that is true, that eliminates him.
If those 4 players fill out the roster, we should stay out of the L.tax.

If I were Woodson and I needed to win now, I would get Sund to pursue Flip instead of West. That’s just me. This potential depth chart would be really good:

PG-Bibby, Teague
SG-JJ, Crawford, Flip/West
SF-Marvin, Evans/Outlaw
PF-Smooth, Joe S, Hunter
C-Horford, Zaza, Siler, Collins, Morris?

I think Flip would be a better sign than West. I would like to see the Hawks trade Evans & Morris for Outlaw. If that could happen, that would trim the roster to 14.

Stating the Obvious

August 29th, 2009
1:43 pm

Hoops,

RandMo is under contract.

The Truth

August 29th, 2009
1:50 pm

Maybe we are reading more into the mentioned that a contract with Collins is imminent. I’m not so sure that is the case. We all knew that Collins was invited to Atlanta for a look. So what; so has Siler. That doesn’t mean a contract is being prepared for him.

KevinA

August 29th, 2009
2:04 pm

RandoMo, Hunter, Flip.

UGA

August 29th, 2009
2:12 pm

Sekou said when Collins worked out in ATL that he did look good. I also remember when Sekou had an article earlier in the summer about some guys that we should look at to sign. They were Joe Smith, Ratliff, McDyess, Gerald Green and one other. I would assume that was just his opinion but no one has still signed Green. And I cannot believe no one has signed Flip yet, unbelievable!!

UGA

August 29th, 2009
2:14 pm

Another name that we may invite to camp is the 6′11, 245 Courtney Sims. I did not know he was the MVP of the D-League.

Astro Joe

August 29th, 2009
2:33 pm

Manny, exactly. There are PLENTY of better coaches available to be hired by the Hawks. And if there were a guarantee that we could grab one (at the properly negotiated salary) then get it done. As I’ve said before, I just want a long-term coach on board next season (at least 3 years) regardless of his name. The question really isn’t is there a better coach than Woody out there, the question is can the ASG and Sund secure the services of a better coach. If the ASg wants to continue to operate under the luxury threshold, they would be wise to invest in the best coach they can find (e.g. Doug Collins).

Hoops

August 29th, 2009
2:39 pm

Stating The Obvious,

I know that Morris is under contract. I put the ? mark there because I am hoping that we could trade him and Evans for Outlaw.

Astro Joe

August 29th, 2009
3:08 pm

One other thing about that Yahoo article, if coaching and scouting staffs are being reduced, what does that mean for player development and team preparation? To me, it screams for GMs to focus on building a roster of high-IQ players… and guys with great work ethic. Ethic because they may have not have the assistant to work with those guys and IQ because the scouting reports won’t be as robust. Seems that you would want smart, self-starters, even if they’re not the most athletic, naturally talented guys in the world.

Which is why you would choose a Jason Collins 10 times out of 10 over someone like Melvin Ely.

Samuel

August 29th, 2009
3:31 pm

STO,

Ok, but when is the last time anybody from the hawks finished top 7 in anything?

Also on Siler, how many of those undrafted bigs had only being playing ball for 5 years?

Garret Siler, a true center, is the 7-foot, 305 pound big man who has only played organized basketball for 5 years and, until now, has went mostly unnoticed as he quietly builds his game. But now the secret is out.

In the age of the Euro dollar effecting NBA teams’ ability to attract foreign players as in the past, it may be time for the league to start looking into America’s background. Players like Siler may be the more logical choice if you’re going to take a chance on a second round pick.

Siler grew up in a family where music and academics were stressed. In his first three years of high school he attended Davidson Fine Arts, a prestigious charter school in Augusta, Georgia where Siler was accepted after auditioning. The 6-11 vocalist also played the piano, but when his weight began to catch up to his height his family convinced him to to take up basketball to stay in shape.

Joe, sounds like a high caracter, high-work ethic guy to me.

Jhan, I totally agree with your 1:04 post.

Samuel

August 29th, 2009
3:54 pm

Joe,

Other than inheriting the best player of All Time, what exactly has Collins done?

Doug Collins Coaching Record
Team Season Season Record Playoff Record
G W L Win % Result W–L
Chicago Bulls 1986–1987 82 40 42 .488 Lost in first round 0–3
Chicago Bulls 1987–1988 82 50 32 .610 Lost in second round 4–6
Chicago Bulls 1988–1989 82 47 35 .573 Lost in Conference Finals 9–8
Detroit Pistons 1995–1996 82 46 36 .561 Lost in first round 0–3
Detroit Pistons 1996–1997 82 54 28 .659 Lost in first round 2–3
Detroit Pistons 1997–1998 45 21 24 .467 Missed Playoffs (fired) –
Wash Wizards 2001–2002 82 37 45 .451 Missed Playoffs –
Wash Wizards 2002–2003 82 37 45 .451 Missed Playoffs –
Career 619 332 287 .536 – 15–23

He sounds “SEXY” but I say again. There has been at least 10 openings in the last year or so and he’s still in the booth.

Just sayn.

Stating the Obvious

August 29th, 2009
3:57 pm

Hoops,

Come on. Don’t write out lineups based on trades that no one but you and a couple other people around here are even whispering about and then speculate on how to fill out a roster after your hypothetical but never gonna happen trade.

Come on, why on EARTH would the Blazers agree to that trade? You don’t think someone will offer them more than two guys who wouldn’t even crack their rotation?

Samuel

August 29th, 2009
4:02 pm

Again,

Give me some names of some coaches out there who will guarantee that we move up into the top 3. If not, why gamble and start over.

Sautee

August 29th, 2009
4:12 pm

Samuel,

You asked this : “STO,

Ok, but when is the last time anybody from the hawks finished top 7 in anything?”

Joe Johnson, 3rd, minutes played 08-09

But at LEAST he made the All-Star Game. ;-)

Hoops

August 29th, 2009
4:18 pm

S T O,

You’re right, I’m just dreaming!

bigdave

August 29th, 2009
4:21 pm

Jacko wants out of Oakland…

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4430906

that Hawk team had heart/fight… i remember when he bucked on Lebron at Phillips…

Stating the Obvious

August 29th, 2009
4:39 pm

JJ was 10th in scoring in 2007. Then teams figured out that Woody had no plan B and that was that.

UGA

August 29th, 2009
4:46 pm

Per the last Hawks article, it looks like Collins is about to sign. That would bring our signed players to 12. I would not think that we’d dress Collins and Morris both. My guess is we’d dress Collins and Mario West opening night.

cp

August 29th, 2009
4:46 pm

I see where you’re coming from Astro but Ive never been a fan of Collins. I’m shocked he has lasted this long in the league. But as they say you can never have too much size. With that said I’m thinking Siler and Hunter make the team. Ive given up on the thought of Gerald Green coming here.

Lurker Above

August 29th, 2009
5:02 pm

I like the idea of bringing in Jason Collins. I’ve got crazy idea, let’s bring in his brother Jarron also, not as another center, but as a third PF. Seriously, Jarron is unlike his brother in that he is one inch shorter than Jason, is more athletic, they are used to playing with each other, and most importantly, we still could use some size depth at the PF position now that the East has gotten bigger.

Astro Joe

August 29th, 2009
5:04 pm

cp, I’m about IQ for this team and neiher Ely nor Green have much of that.

With Collins close to being a Hawk, I wonder what happens with Siler. Will Sund want to carry 5 centers on his sqaud (Horford, Zaza, Collins, Morris & Siler)? Goos to see that Hunter will be in the veteran’s camp. Here’s hoping that Sund would be willing to use a portion of the $2M he picked up earlier from Houston to buy-out Morris if he struggles to dominate Siler in October.

Ken Strickland

August 29th, 2009
5:30 pm

Collins has size, height, experience and a willingness to be physical. Those are attributes that will be very valuable against the bigger more physical teams that’s given us trouble in the past. With JSmith, Zaza, Collins and RMorris, we can now go big or small. If Horford goes down, like he did last yr, it’ll be nice to have a center with extensive starting experience to move into the position. Last yr, when Zaza replaced an injuried Horford, Solo was the only viable option off the bench, and Woodson refused to utilize him.

This is going to be one very interesting and exciting Hawks basketball season.

Woodson is definitely going to be extensively evaluated this season, and Sund has removed every conceivable excuse for not doing a better job. Injuries, depth, too much youth and inexperience and no adequate starting PG, or backup SG or PG can no longer be used as a justification for not winning more gms and advancing beyond last yrs overall accomplishments.

niremetal

August 29th, 2009
5:32 pm

I’d love to see Siler get a chance, but it’s a no brainer in my view to bring in Collins regardless of the effect on Siler. Collins is tough, plays GREAT on-ball defense in the post, and has a great rep as a locker room guy. Even if he never sees the floor, just having him around to act as a big man coach to Josh and Al would be worth it. And having him would also help us sign Siler.

PS – If Collins does sign, it’s yet another sign that all the silly talk about ASG being cheap should end. Siler would be a much cheaper alternative at $457k than the $1.3M that Collins would get, since the minimum for vets is so much higher than rookies. I realize that most people will keep living in 2006 and insisting that ASG will pinch pennies at every turn, but even a half-sideways glance at the past 2 years shows that’s not the case anymore.

niremetal

August 29th, 2009
5:33 pm

*would also help us IF we sign Siler.

(the point being that if we do sign a guy with as little experience as Siler, we need someone who’s been around the block a few times to help show him the ropes)

niremetal

August 29th, 2009
5:34 pm

PS – one more night in Italy and the niremetal posts will hopefully be back on at full blast. I say “hopefully” because I don’t want to jinx my plane flight home…

O'Brien

August 29th, 2009
5:45 pm

I really like what Sund has done this offseason. Woody will have no excuses, in terms of depth, injuries, and players being tired. In the past, we have struggled on the second game of back to backs, but we should do much better this year because we are deep.

I would not be surprised if they do not sign a backup SF. After all, With Crawford playing SG, JJ could provide some backup minutes at SF (and JJ is 6′7″, 240 lbs), and that would allow both JJ and Crawford to be on the court at the same time.

Marvin will get his 34 mpg, so the remaining 14 minutes could be split between JJ and Mo Evans (when we play against big SF’s).

MannyT

August 29th, 2009
6:11 pm

@Niremetal,

Minimum is almost the same for the team regardless of experience. The NBA picks up a portion of the minimum salary if the player has been in the league a few years. So picking up a vet like Joe Smith (or Collins) on a minimum deal saves the team about 1/2 of that salary in real money.

It’s tucked away in Larry Coon’s site if you want to check the reference.

Not calling the ASG cheap, but saying there is cash benefit to experienced players on minimum contracts. Most industries (including sports) are watching their cash a bit more these days. It’s a responsible thing to do.

BWAF

jerrywest

August 29th, 2009
6:12 pm

Nire,

Hawks pay 457,000 forJoeSmith and Collins – equal to rookie minimum. NBA pays the rest – close to 2 million total. For each player only 457,000 is counted against the salary cap.

Blast

August 29th, 2009
6:26 pm

Have a safe flight home, Nire.

A better, bigger name coach to replace Woody will cost a lot of money. Money I’m don’t think the ASG is ready to pony up. Woody has his own destiny in his hands. If his team has a great season, and the only way that can happen is if Woody expands his offence and rotation, I have no doubt Sund will retain him.

Hawks can carry five centers easy. Boston has close to that. You can never have too many centers. Collins is not flashy, but he is a banger. And I don’t see why Siler still can’t come aboard. Hawks have never had the luxury of having too many big men. Also the refs are so impartial towards the Hawks, so whistle-happy, we need bigs to replace folks in foul trouble.

True, I’ll rather have Flip back than sign Mario. Amazing Flip still doesn’t have a job yet!

Go Hawks!

terrell barron

August 29th, 2009
6:49 pm

Jason Collins < Lorenzen Wright?? Might as well go with Siler.

niremetal

August 29th, 2009
6:54 pm

MannyT – good call. Yeah, the league will reimburse the Hawks for anything above the 2-year vet minimum, so signing Joe Smith over an undrafted rookie only saves the team ~$475k, not the ~$850k I thought it was. Still, they still spent more on Joe Smith (or Collins) than they would on a rookie minimum contract.

niremetal

August 29th, 2009
6:57 pm

*costs, not saves

jerrywest

August 29th, 2009
7:06 pm

Collins is bad in just about everything that has to do with stats. He has never avearaged 1 block in a season despite starting about 500 games. Never had 6.5 ppg or 6,5 rebounds in a season.

I wonder why he played in 75 playoff games, more than any hawks, and started in 58 of them, only 2nd to Bibby. He must do something that the coaches like.

All we need him to do is to take 6 good fouls, play as an enforcer, set good picks, take some offensive fouls and do some intangibles. We don’t really need him to score. He can’t be worse than Morris in the things we need help in.

UGA

August 29th, 2009
7:22 pm

According to Hoopshype, Collins sets very good picks and does all the little things very well. This would be an excellent aquisition. For the last 2 years, we have not had any vets outside of Bibby and Flip I believe. Now we’ll have Joe and Collins to add to the veteran mix.

RealSquawk

August 29th, 2009
7:30 pm

Mike Woodson Mike Woodson

I have a campaign going for you man

Woody refine in 09!!

I guarantee you if that happens Mr. Woodson you will have yourself a contract extension, but if you stick to the same old same old not only might you not get an extension you probably won’t be employed through the season and if you are the Hawks won’t be in the playoffs.

One of the only things I like about you is your ability to be professional and say the appropriate things in public, but going on a tirade in public about your lack of a contract extension….when you don’t deserve one… you were right many coaches have been loosing their jobs and some other organizations would have fired you after being swept by a team that didn’t even make it to the finals…so Mike do what you have always done be professional and go out there and perform

Refine in 09 baby!! Refine in 09!!!

Ramon

August 29th, 2009
9:21 pm

AJ, you know that I normally agree with you on many topics. But I still struggle to believe there is a better coach than Woody who is unemployed. As I’ve said many times, Van Gundy, Johnson, Collins, Mitchell, and others have all had *more* talented rosters than the Hawks, and haven’t produced more. At the end of the day, its about wins. I would think most GMs have some sort of ratio of talent to wins (if that makes sense). And if they do, I would be sure to bet that Woody has a higher rate. Van Gundy has had Ewing, Mason, And Oakley. Then he turned around and had Yao, Tracey, and Battier. Avery had Dirk, Josh Howard, Jason Kidd, JT, and Bass. Collins had Jordan, Pippen, Oakley, Grant, Hill, Dumars, Hamilton, and more. Those coaches have had 8 total first ballot HOF players (Ewing, Yao, Dirk, Kidd, Jordan, Pippen, Hill, and Dumars). At the moment, the Hawks don’t have one. If those coaches couldn’t produce a championship ring with those lineups, why would we expect them to do better than Woody now?

More than anyone else, I’ll say loudly that Woody’s offense could fit on a McDonald’s napkin, and still have room left over to wipe your mouth. But when you put it all together as the entire season and games, Woody produces so far. And until he stops improving annually, I truly don’t see any justification of letting him go, unless Phil Jackson, Pop, Or Sloan are about to get fired. In the last 20 seasons, there has been only 6 coaches who lead their teams to the title. And many would say Sloan is a better coach than Brown and Rivers. I just say be patient.

Also, I’m loving the addition of Collins. Siler and Morris may do this and they may do that. But now with Zaza, Smith, and Collins you KNOW what you get with them. So if Siler and Morris don’t succeed like we hope they do, then you’re still ok. Its always better to have too many jugs of water, than not enough. I had forgot Collins did start in the Finals one season, and played back up in another season. How many available bigs can say they have played in 20 post season games in the same season (twice)?

The Truth

August 29th, 2009
9:24 pm

Twitter also reported earlier that Adam Harrington and Corsley Edwards was schedule to workout with Hawks also. Does that mean they are going to get contracts with the Hawks too? I am not yet convince that Collins has an imminent contract because some Yahoo sport writer said so. Also, Sekou mentioned earlier that Collins and Siler were in for workouts and that “they” liked good. I took it to mean he was referring to both of them and not just Collins.

Ken Strickland

August 29th, 2009
9:38 pm

With PG JTeague, SG/PG JCrawford, SG/SF MEvans, C ZPachulia, C/PF JSmith and possibly C JCollins, Woody will have a butt load of depth, versatility, experience and talent on the bench. This will be our deepest bench since the days of CLivingston, ACarr, JBattle, SWebb and JKoncak.

Ramon

August 29th, 2009
9:48 pm

I will say Sund is great at getting value for the dollar. Last year he turned Childress would be contract in to Evans and Flip, and ended up with more production. This year he’s worked two miracles. He’s turned Speedy and Law’s contracts into Crawford an 18ppg scorer. And he’s essentially signed Smith, probable Collins, and probable Siler (or Hunter) all for less than what Solo makes in one season. That is wonderful. I will admire his craftiness.

Ken Strickland

August 29th, 2009
10:03 pm

RAMON-name one of those coaches that couldn’t have taken the Hawks from 13 wins to 47 wins with the same talent Woodson’s had? What has Woodson done that’s contributed so decidedly to the Hawks progression that the other HC’s don’t possess? I’ll bet if any of them had been our HC, Acie, Salim and Solo would have gotten more opportunities to contribute and develop, and our starters, especially JJ, wouldn’t have been consistly overplayed. They have all proven capable of making adjustments and employing strategy during gms, and Woody certainly hasn’t.

Whether Woodson is the NBA’s worst or best HC, he’ll still open the season as our HC regardless of how any of us feel about him. Let’s see how the season plays out before we start firing him or awarding him COY and a contract extension.

Ramon

August 29th, 2009
10:15 pm

Ken, Collins had more talent with the Wizards and didn’t take them to 47 wins. You’re saying Acie and Salim would’ve gotten more playing time and been better. Is that the same way that Avery was able to get all star production out of Harris? Lol, I forgot he didn’t do that. Harris somehow instantly became better after leaving Avery, don’t think that is coincidental. You say they develop talent better, but what talent have you truly seen Van Gundy, Avery, and Collins developed? Collins got lucky with Grant Hill. Avery was given a 60 win team. So how did he really improve the team? Van Gundy was given a Finals team in New York. And a team in Houston that had the leagues best center at the time. And he ended up getting fired because he didn’t improve that team also. So if those two coaches both had teams that had 2 all stars on it and didn’t improve their winning total. How do we truly know they would work here? Larry Brown was the greatest teacher in the game and bombed in New York. All I’m saying is until Woody has peaked out and stops improving annually, its not worth the risk. Because neither one of those coaches (except for Collins when he had MJ in the 80s) has taken a lottery team and put them in the playoffs.

Samuel

August 29th, 2009
10:26 pm

“that couldn’t have”(speculation), “I’ll bet if any of them ad been”(speculation), “wouldn’t have”(speculation). The man presented you with facts and all you can come up with is: coulda,woulda,shoulda?

Still using pointless examples in Salim and Acie(proven scrubbs).

Mystikal

August 29th, 2009
11:21 pm

Wow, some peope just really believe what they wanna believe.

Mystikal

August 30th, 2009
12:16 am

Good news if hawks really are locking up Jason Collins, especially on the cheap. This will be the best depth hawks have had in the frontcourt in decades and we need it. Boston, Cleveland, and Orlando all have dominant low post players (once that can get you in foul trouble quickly) and being that we’re already undersized in that area we need the extra beef. Plus, potentially having Joe Smith and Collins will provide us with the veteran bigs we have been lacking to help Smooth and Al progress. Would still like to sign Siler even if we send him to the D-league, but he too could benefit from having veteran posts around. Think we have a good mix. We already had versatility at every position and now we (may) have some legit beef to back them up.

Ken Strickland

August 30th, 2009
12:35 am

RAMON-It’s ok to make a point, but at lesst try to make a VALID POINT. Devin Harris came to a team that was a legitimate title contender while Acie and Salim came to A team just trying to lose fewer gms than the yr before. Avery Johnson played Devin Harris 15.4MPG his rookie yr, 22.8MPG his 2nd yr, 26.0MPG his 3rd yr and 30.4 his 4th yr, even after acquiring future HOF PG JKidd. NOW THAT’S HOW YOU DEVELOP A YOUNG PG. When he was traded, he didn’t become instantly better, as you put it, he became a starter and did what he had been groomed to do by HC Avery Johnson, period.

What makes you think the Wizards were more talented than the current Hawks? Besides, having more individual talent doesn’t automatically translate into being a better team. There hasn’t been a HC that’s been able to get Washington to play consistent team ball since they were the Bullits. Regardless of the talent these HC’s have been given, they proved they could coach and win with that talent. You’ve shown nothing to suggest they couldn’t have accomplished as much, probably more, with the same talent Woodson’s had during his tenue.

Each of these HC’s have coached teams that were playing to win NBA titles, all of them used their bench and none of them played their key players into the ground, especially during the regular season.

Big Ray

August 30th, 2009
12:44 am

Mystikal,

Right you are. Crazy, ain’t it?

Samuel ,

I recognize Shaq for who and what he is: one of the most dominant players ever, who is arguably still top 2 at his position when healthy and motivated.

I said “so what” about his all-nba status because it dad jack-sh!t for Phoenix last year. That’s like JJ or one of the other Hawks players making all-nba, and the Hawks not making the playoffs. So what? What good did it do the team?

I have to admit that I laughed when you referenced Gasol in your post. What, the same Gasol you were only too happy to call soft in 2008, saying that he got b!tch-slapped around by your boys Powe and Big Baby? THAT Gasol? I could just about hear the sneer in your voice as Boston took the ring, and you were all over the “Euro boy’s” ass like Astro Joe on a Halle Berry poster (well, not quite that bad :twisted: ). Got some newfound respect for the fella since he took a ring while playing against today’s best center, eh?

Ramon

August 30th, 2009
1:02 am

Ken, I don’t have to show that they couldn’t and I am not saying that they couldn’t. I’m saying its a CHANCE that they would do good. But with being a chance they would do good, its a chance they would do bad. But when you KNOW you have a coach who the team clearly listens to well enough to still win, then why risk that for another CHANCE. The mere point I was making was Collins nor Johnson has had to coach such a young team. And in fact, don’t forget Johnson was with that team for at least 3-4 seasons before taking over, so chemistry was already there. You say no coach had been able to win with Washington since they were the Bullets. But I would put any amount of money on the fact that Washington has been to the playoffs more times in the last 10 years than the Hawks. And if you’ve gone that long with out playoff basketball. You don’t just castaway the one coach who lead you there the last two seasons, not for a chance. As I said, the Knicks and Larry Brown proved that everything is a chance when changing. In this debate, I don’t have to prove that those coaches couldn’t do the same thing. I just have to look at the fact that although we don’t like the way he does it, Woody is still getting the desired result.

At the beginning of last season, if anyone would’ve said the Hawks would’ve had the 4th seed and advanced to the 2nd round of the playoffs *with* one starter out, and 2 starters limping, there’s not a single fan who wouldn’t have taken that. Woody may not have any offense, but he does have defense. And he also has respect of many of the players. There is no question about it that Woody is the leader of this team in so many ways. Although he’s hardheaded, ugly (lol), and isn’t the best at game managing, he is still the undisputed leader in the huddle, rather wrong or right. And once again, there’s no way you can show me where Collins had less talent and and made it further in the playoffs.

Big Ray

August 30th, 2009
1:08 am

Hey Y’all ,

Here’s one for everybody since it keeps coming up. As I mentioned in a previous post, even the staunchest Woody critics have had some positive things to say about Woody this time around, and in reality, whether you want to acknowledge it…..anybody with any normal reasonable opinion has not been calling for his head (or a replacement) lately. So what’s all the fuss? My question:

What constitutes a “good coach” in your mind? What makes one guy “good” and another guy “bad” or “not as good?” What criteria or requirements in your mind make up a good coach?

I ask this because all the time I hear this noise about how he should be given a contract extension now, the Hawks are doing him wrong by making him jump through hoops, etc. I thought getting to keep your job in a changing management environment, as well as economy woes, in addition to ownership/management problems, was a good thing. I guess that doesn’t impress some of us one bit.

I also hear a lot about how it’s “all about the players.” When things don’t go right, it’s because the players didn’t do this, or didn’t do that. The assumption is that the coach was doing his job. It was just the players who were not up to par. When the blame doesn’t go on the players, it goes on the GM for not getting the coach the proper amount of talent to work with. But it’s never the coach. Okay, so if it’s ultra-important to have a GM that gets a coach proper help and talent/ability, and it’s on the players to do everything right on the court….

Then WHERE does the coach fit in exactly, and WHY should management be in a hurry to hand him an extension before he’s finished serving out the current deal? And please don’t compare this to players and their contracts. Anybody who follows the NBA with any modicum of seriousness understands that the job of head coach is the most precarious, most fluid position there is, and the contract status and money/negotiation situations are nowhere near the kind that players are involved in.

Why? For all the same reasons that coach supporters use to exonerate their heroes: that’s right….coach can’t score, pass, rebound, play defense or do all the “little things” on the court. You pay for the product. Nobody goes to a game to see a guy coach. And Woody, like all coaches, understands that. I wish some fans would.

Anyway, the question stands. Perhaps we will meet with better success on opinionated input than with “what’s a quantifiable way to measure a team’s offensive efficiency”, or whatever the question was…

And before anybody goes on a misguided rant, this is NOT a straw man, setup argument for the sake of bashing Woody. I expect continued success from Woody this season. And if he meets with such success, I expect him to get a decent extension, most likely the size of the one he got when Knight brought him here in the first place.

If not, then we know the likely scenario: insufficient success (whatever management judges that to be) will result in a lack of an extension offer. And then they’ll bring in somebody new with probably a three or four year contract, just like they did when Woody arrived. It’s to be expected, and I don’t understand anybody whining ahead of time about it.

But here’s an example: many of us would be quick to say that Mike Dunleavy is a crappy coach. Why? But he has kept his job for some time now, has he not? Again, why? Did management not get him the right talent to work with, or did they? Did injuries factor into his lack of success? Or does he just plain suck?

Big Ray

August 30th, 2009
1:17 am

Ramon,

True, Woody is adamant about defense. And he does get the respect of his players for the most part. He’s not a lame-duck coach right now. But he does have to prove continued success. Some people talk like the man has arrived. Really? At what? I’ll give him his props, but I also appreciate that the man realizes the job ain’t but halfway done. If he took the attitude of some of his diehard supporters, dude would not be motivated to do anymore than try and coach the team to the exact same result as last year…year after year…because he’s “arrived.” Heh. I like the fact that he wants to continue to keep working to get better. And while like any fan, I have ideas about what he needs to work on, it’s on him to recognize what really needs to be worked on, and it’s on his boss to point that stuff out to him as he sees fit.

I’m hopeful for the future. Finding a better coach is something you do when you are certain that you need to do so to get better. Woody still has another season to prove to management that this won’t be necessary. I say let him prove it.

Ramon

August 30th, 2009
1:17 am

Ken, another thing, on the Acie Law scenario. Harris came to a team and stayed healthy. Something Law couldn’t accomplish either of the seasons he was on the team. Harris went to a team where they didn’t have a pg. Name the back up PG for the Mavs Harris’s first 3 years. If you look you’ll see it was Lue one season, and AJ another. If you recall, before his first injury, Acie got pretty good minutes, although he was on a team that had 3 other PGs. Its easy to get minutes when there is no other PG there. And many scouts and reporters have come out and said how much Johnson hurt Harris’ production. Even Harris stated he was glad to be traded from Johnson’s coaching.

In the case of Salim, Salim is so good that he’s averaged how many minutes per game since leaving the Hawks? Pop couldn’t find room for Salim, but he doesn’t get bashed. Yet Woody gets bashed because Salim didn’t know defensive rotations, and offensive placements. Interesting.

Big Ray

August 30th, 2009
1:20 am

I’m all for bringing Jason Collins on board. Depth, depth, depth, and Woody should make use of it (finally). This very likely puts Siler on the bubble (better have an awesome training camp, fella). On the other hand, it may help out Hunter and even West. You never know.

I think Sund is doing a heck of a job.

Big Ray

August 30th, 2009
1:23 am

I can’t bash Woody for Salim. Law was victimized by injuries and the arrival of Bibby. Still, you always look to groom a young pg behind the able-bodied veteran. Acie’s game never impressed Woody. That’s the bottom line. Not a bash on Woody, just a statement that is easily backed by comments made by both Acie and Woody.

Ramon

August 30th, 2009
1:38 am

Big Ray, I totally agree with you on Woody. I’m not a big supporter of Woody’s. I just don’t like everyone assuming that any coach out there would do better than what Woody is doing. I just feel like there’s no real way to know that for sure. Certain coaches are right for situations, and it all has to add up. With this line up, I’d be satisfied with Woody, if he shows improved game management, more offensive movement, and makes it to a game 6 in the second round of the play offs. I mean everyone already saying the Hawks can’t match up with the top 3 teams. When you looking at bang for buck, unfortunately, there’s no one out there who has more value, not at the moment. Honestly, more than any of the coaches mentioned here, the perfect coach for this team in my mind is retired and won’t coach again. And that’s Hubie Brown.

vava74

August 30th, 2009
5:02 am

First of all, make a list of available coaches which are, without a shadow of a doubt, better that Woody:

Doug Collins cannot enter this list, his record and his lack of interest in accepting coaching jobs speak for themselves.

Second:

Siler is 7′0 and 300lbs, but he has not played a single NBA game to date: do you seriously believe that he would know how to defend down low Howard, Shaq, Perkins, Wallace, …??

Collins has proven to be an effective defensive player and someone who always bring his A game, a limited A game, but a useful one.

There is no discussion even when you try to compare Devin Harris with Acie and Salim, they are simply not on the same page. How good are they? We don’t know, however, not as good as Devin Harris who immediately showed he belonged in the league.

Samuel

August 30th, 2009
5:47 am

No One “defends” Shaq. They just foul like sissies.

vava74

August 30th, 2009
5:52 am

Samuel, that is not correct: some players know how and are willing to box out Shaq (specially now) and limit his usefulness.

If you were right, Shaq would be averaging 30+ ppg.

vava74

August 30th, 2009
5:54 am

The above does not mean that we should not sign Siler.

I think we should and send him to the NBDL for long stints in order for him to be in contact with similar but more experienced competition.

The same applies for Othello Hunter who has shown he is a willing work horse and could develop into an extremely useful defensive/rebounding combo forward, something which, in the playoffs, comes very very handy.

Clyde

August 30th, 2009
8:04 am

THIS BLOG DONE FELL OFF LIKE BIG RAY’S LOVE LIFE.

niremetal

August 30th, 2009
8:53 am

What the hell is that, Clyde?

But how’s this: This blog done fell off like Sean Williams’s minutes.

The Truth

August 30th, 2009
9:17 am

The Truth

August 30th, 2009
9:56 am

Since the Hawks will use Joe Smith to backup both PF and SF, the only position of need left to filled is another backup PG. I agree, signing Siler at this point becomes a bigger question mark. I can’t imagine the anxiety he must be feeling knowing his chances have just gotten even slimmer. Since Woody will be really coaching “scared” this year, other then Teague, his tolerance for teaching any players will be zero. Perhaps this explains his preference for players with high basketball I.Q. regardless of their skill set.

Ramon

August 30th, 2009
10:40 am

Rambis will have Laimbeer and Theus on his staff. That to go along with a young (hopefully healthy) Jefferson, it could be a not so long turn around coming up for Minnesota. It wasn’t so long ago that they weren’t scared to go in luxury land to field a good team.

The Truth

August 30th, 2009
10:40 am

UGA

August 30th, 2009
11:16 am

Who is going to be the 12th man on the Hawks roster on opening night???
(Assuming we know the top 10 and Collins would be the 11th)
I think it will be Super Mario West.

Astro Joe

August 30th, 2009
11:33 am

Sund could have provided the team some veteran depth last summer. Instead of Hunter, West, Morris and Gardner, there surely were some veteran free agents looking for a minumum salary contract. I’m thrilled it is happening this year. My point being that I think we will learn within the first 20-30 games the difference in a team with guys like Joe Smith and Jason Collins vs. our previous collections of throw-away bigs (Morris, Batista, Lo Wright, etc)

Ramon

August 30th, 2009
11:43 am

AJ, I’ll be honest, I don’t think last season the Hawks would’ve had enough juice to pick up many of those veterans last season. Remember they picked up Flip and Evans. And many were surprised by those two moves. Barely getting an 8 seed, and getting a top 4 seed, creates a difference in how other free agents look at you. And also they were in a harder position with Smooth, than they were with Marvin this year.

Ken Strickland

August 30th, 2009
1:07 pm

RAYMON-go back and read the last paragraph of my 10:03PM post. To continue discussing the merits of Woodson’s ability as a HC is a waste of time, and it won’t change anything. It would be more important and beneficial to discuss how he’ll coach the influx of talent he’ll have available on this yrs bench. It’s also beyond the ability or resposibility of any of us to determine whether he deserves an extension. Let’s leave that to the Sund.

terrell barron

August 30th, 2009
1:25 pm

Ken, I dare you say the name Jon “Contract” when talking about the Hawks. lol!

ILL-logical

August 30th, 2009
2:07 pm

These are the three things that I believe Woodson must accomplish this season-in addition to winning- in order to earn a contract extension.
1 Become more of a leader. He has been a virtual baby sitter in the first few years with a roster of ner’ do wells and raw,teenage rookies.Now ,he must put aside his ego and get the team to function as a team and not decide that he is going to”make” someone an All-Star because it is good for the team.And stop with the feuds, it doesn’t refect well on your charecter.
2. Delegate more responsibility to his staff and hold them responsible for their actions. Allow them to do the job that you hired them for and LISTEN to them.
3.Take the strategic viewpoint this season. In the past, expediency ruled; his actions were dictated by survival. With the team that Mr. Sund has assembled to Woodson’s specifications, he can aspire to a higher goal than just making the playoffs: good teams play the season to make the playoffs; great teams use the regular season to get ready for the playoffs.

JSS

August 30th, 2009
2:31 pm

ILL-logical…

Sorry I didn’t answer earlier, I’m sitting in the airport in Boston waiting for my connection back to Atlanta.

I went to the big pre-meet party that they have in Zurich at the main train depot (an incredible place by the way) and Mike Powell (the LJ WR holder) was there… Powell said there was not doubt in his mind that he’ll be the first human past 9 meters (29 ft. 7in or more, sorry about the conversion). They put a lot more into that mark since its metric. He told the english speaking media that he thinks Bolt is possible for 30 ft. 5 inches, maybe 31 feet at altitude… Also, he said that he uses the limelight better than anyone ever, even Lewis. “Carl was human, you knew he could be beat, Usain hasn’t scratched the surface.”

What this I’m reading about Jason Collins? Are the Hawks going to make that deal happen?

Big Ray

August 30th, 2009
5:42 pm

Clyde,

I don’t have to sell t-shirts , to go all the way to Rio to get a love life….the wife sees to that. Try again, homie ;)

Samuel,

You’re funnier every day! Go out there and show all them little NBA sissies how to defend Shaq. I know you can, ’cause you’re the man.

Now that’s funny. I ask what makes a good coach versus a bad one, and nobody wants to touch it. Instead, we keep talking about either how great Woody is, or how awful he is. The voice of the people has spoken!

vava74

August 30th, 2009
6:20 pm

Good coach » Bad coach

A good coach must be good at:

A. X-O’s;
B. Motivational skills (this includes being able to, during a game, not only to amp up the players but also calming them down when things are too tense);
C. Capacity to deal with team issues internally and frankly without calling out players (and management) in the press;

Point A must be divided into Offence and Defence: defence wins more games than offence, specially in the playoffs and I would rate a balance between the two @ 60-40.

Phil Jackson is excellent at all three, albeit in occasions he has also failed to be exempt of behaviours which violated point C.

Pop is also very good at all three, however, I think he sometimes fails at B.

From my observation, Woody, on a 1-10 scale fares:

A. Defence 8, Offence 5 – average 6,8 (based on the above def-off ratio).
B. 7 (I already mentioned this, but in game 3 of the Miami series when the refs were creaming us and called 2 fouls on Bibby and 1 on Solo, giving Miami a 11-0 run with 2 four point plays, Woody was simply perfect during the time out)
C. 10 (even on the episodes in which he had troubles with players, Salim, J-Smoove, Woody has been always a straight up guy, never transpiring to the press any disgust or bad words).

jhan

August 30th, 2009
6:41 pm

Here’s a different angle on Woodson:
If Phil Jackson or Greg Popovich retired unexpectedly do you think the Lakers or Spurs would give Woody serious consideration?

If you don’t think so then why should the Hawks be in a rush to rehire Woody?

Sautee

August 30th, 2009
7:11 pm

jhan,

well said

Mystikal

August 30th, 2009
7:24 pm

About good coaches vs bad coaches i’ll say that it does depend on the team they have. I compare what Phil Jackson does vs Larry Brown, they are both good coaches. Phil Jackson is a better motivator and can get the best out of someone’s talent (helping Bulls/Lakers get over hump, take to next level). Larry Brown is a better teacher and can turn a young struggling team into a winner. Now if these two guys switched roles I doubt either would be as successful trying to do what they do. I’d say Greg Poppovich is better at all of these things as Vava mentioned above. Also with the team thing, have to know what the goals are for that team. D’Antoni was thought to be a good coach in Phoenix, but he couldn’t win because he didn’t play enough defense; similar situation with Eddie Jordan in Washington. I still believe they are good coaches, but if winning (championships) is the determining factor than make your own assumption. I’m not proclaiming that you have to win championships to be a good coach. Dallas and Houston have had much talent and many good coaches over the yrs, but both came up short for different reasons (too soft/injury prone).

Anyway for the hawks at this point, I’d say a good coach needs to be able to develop/motivate young talent, know how to take advantage of teams’ strengths (athleticism/fast-break). And goes without saying coach must continue to WIN and get better.

*Also X-O’s and able to make in game adjustments; know when something isn’t working and being able to counter what other team does.

Mystikal

August 30th, 2009
7:40 pm

Just read Cleveland article and saw Joe Smith was made same offer that he too with us. Wow, he really did choose hawks over Bron & company. Good sign.

Just want to say concerning us getting a “true” 5 man. There are only a handful of legit centers in the league. Dwight Howard is at the top of the totem pole and a far post prime Shaq (assuming stay healthy and doesn’t implode team) is somewhere beneath. There are only a handful, scratch that, maybe 5 guys that can contend with them, and 3 now play for the Celtics (KG, Perkins, Sheed Wallace). So regardless of who we put out there (Horford/Collins/Siler, etc.), they will have their way with them. The extra bigs we’ve accumulated this off season will help with foul trouble and wear n tear on our starters. Overall though, our frontcourt guys have to be able to use their quickness advantage. (And just like that we’re back to coaching, just never ends..lol)

i’ll jsut say bout siler, sure he hasnt been playing organized ball that long and has yet to play an nba game, but as far as guarding shaq or dwight, he’d do just as good a job as most. there are maybe five guys in the league that can guard them (and 3 play for celtics)

Mystikal

August 30th, 2009
7:42 pm

Disregard that last sentence

vava74

August 30th, 2009
7:47 pm

Woody is still learning and I think that his strengths are very important.

As for player development, much has been said about it and honestly it doesn’t match up:

1. Everyone says and acknowledges that J-Smoove, Marvin and Al have improved since they got into the league. And so did Childress while he was here and, to a lesser degree, Solo as well.

2. The perception that Woody is not a good player developer is based on the fact that Salim and Acie failed to live up to the their respective expectations, in particular Acie.

The above is contradictory and I believe that it is easier to simply conclude that either due to injuries and due to the fact that he was never Woody’s type of player, Acie had his chance and things did not work out.

Salim has been ditched already by Pop in SA and by the Bucks since he was with us and in my opinion he should be packing for Europe at once to make money, burn the scoreboards around here and regain his trust (I think that, apart from his defensive lapses, his range is not enough to play in the NBA and that he suffered with the extra distance on the 3pt line).

Big Ray

August 30th, 2009
7:57 pm

Vava74 ,

I like your assessment. It seems well thought out, and while anybody can quibble how you graded Woody according to your scale, I think you did a nice job of explaining the way you think, and then applying it to to Woody.

Jhan ,

Excellent angle. Not an attempt to bash Woody, but that puts things into perspective. I’d like to see how some of us would answer that, and explain the answers. On the one hand, I’d say Woody should be pretty good with a team that is comprised of mostly veterans. On the other hand, I’m not enamored of his offensive philosophies, substitution patterns, and in-game adjustments. Key phrase here “I’m not enamored.” In other words, me not being impressed does not mean he’s simply not good at those things. The Spurs and Lakers are used to being competitive on the championship contender level, and nothing lower than that. If they were to look for a new coach to replace the retiring existant ones, they’d probably want a proven veteran head coach who has a strong system, particularly one who can “get it done” when deep in the playoffs. If that’s the case, Woody would have little or no shot. If either team knew it was going to go through a rebuilding phase, Woody’s shot at the job becomes better. At the same time, you’d also have to consider what GM he’d be working for. They might respect him from a distance, but not care to have him working for them. Think philosophical differences…..

Mystikal ,

Good points. One example of an excellent coach who has not won the big one is Jerry Sloan.

Astro Joe

August 30th, 2009
8:16 pm

Woody’s resume doesn’t make him a candidate to takeover a veteran team with championship expectations. His resume suggests that if a team like the Thunder, T’Wolves, Kings, Nets, etc. find themselves with a vacancy, Woody could help them achieve playoff status.

If y’all think that the ASG is going to give another coach a 4-year deal (that’s what Avery Johnson wanted from Dumars) and upwards of $4M/year, I think you’re fooling yourselves. Woody is like a $10M player. He’s good but he isn’t a franchise changer. At the same time, he isn’t a journeyman either. Some teams only have budget for a $10M player, they can’t afford a max player.

Now with that said, it could be that teams will only keep a coach on a contract for 2 years until the economy recovers. (Unless, of course, your a multi-championship winner or the Utah coach). That is what the Yahoo article hinted toward, teams are cutting expenses amongst coaches. I appreciate that Sund has provided Woody with his best roster to date, so that he has every opportunity to succeed.

doc

August 30th, 2009
8:22 pm

hmm, for some reason article didnt make it to me.

Hoops

August 30th, 2009
8:40 pm

O’kay guys, we will have 4.6M left to sign 3 players after we sign Collins for the Vet Min. I would predict that we will sign Siler and Hunter. That leaves us with one player to sign. West or Flip. If I am Woodson and I am up for a contract, I would go with Flip! That’s an easy call.

Sautee

August 30th, 2009
9:20 pm

Hoops,

Keep trying, man, I know that somewhere Flip appreciates all you’ve done.

vava74,

You said this: “The perception that Woody is not a good player developer is based on the fact that Salim and Acie failed to live up to the their respective expectations, in particular Acie.”

For me, it wasn’t as much about living up to expectations as it was a decent opportunity. When you go for 11 pts., 7 assists and ZERO turnovers (in 15:28 on 2/10) and the very next game get a dnp-cd, well that’s not a fair opportunity is it?

For me it was THAT kind of thing that made me think he was a poor developer.

But you ARE correct that they both were ultimately disappointments.

The Truth

August 30th, 2009
9:41 pm

Flip seems to be picky these days about his terms and playing situation. Would he want a third PG role for vet min? The only upside with the Hawks is bird rights next year. I’m not sure we could come to terms with him.

Ken Strickland

August 30th, 2009
10:11 pm

JAHAN-even the Pistons, Woodson’s former employer, didn’t give him serious consideration for their vacant HC position, and he was definitely without a contract and available at the time.

TARRELL BARRON-I remember Jon “CONTRACT” Koncak well. He actually had an outstanding season after replacing injured PF Kevin Willis. Now that was a situation of forcing a player to play a position he wasn’t best suited for. Even though he was big, and 6′ 11″-7′, he just didn’t have the skills to play center. The one time he was given the opportunity to play PF, he excelled. Once Willis returned, Koncak went back to being the backup center. I think they paid him all that money because they thought there was a very good possibility they’d loseor be forced to get rid of KWillis.

ASTRO JOE-how many GM’s would consider hiring a HC that’s proven he’s willing to challenge the authority of the GM that hired him? If former GM BKnight hadn’t made the trade for Bibby, does anyone really think we would have made the playoffs that yr? If current GM RSund hadn’t resigned Smoove and signed FA’s MEvans and FMurray, do you think we’d have been the 4th seed or even made the playoffs last yr?

Ariose

August 30th, 2009
11:18 pm

*year or two

Ariose

August 30th, 2009
11:29 pm

“At 34, Ray(Allen) is almost exclusively a shooter. Forty-six percent of his field goal attempts last season were threes, putting him on par with Mike Bibby (42%), Kyle Korver (47%), Quentin Richardson (49%) and other guys who stopped attacking the rim around the same time they stopped wearing t-shirts under their jersey.”

http://dimemag.com/2009/08/whos-better-ray-allen-or-michael-redd/

I wish we could put Mike in a time machine lol. Take him back Six or Seven years…

Ariose

August 30th, 2009
11:46 pm

…..Siler > Collins…just saiyn’…

Big Ray

August 31st, 2009
1:03 am

Ariose,

Scary percentage, isn’t it? But that, like his defense, gets glossed over every time it’s brought up. Why? Because he “brings so much to the table”, is the most common refrain. Here’s the trick: it’s “true”, but it also shows just how bad off we’ve been in the point guard category for the last 5 or so years.

Bibby is what I would call a “substantial shadow” of his former self. He’s still got some substance, and he’s not incapable of playing good ball. But he’s not the player he once was by a good margin.

Funny thing is, all that and he only averaged one point per game less than Mr. Jameer Nelson, who got an all-star nod for nearly identical stats last year. Heh. Truth be told, I’ve used Bibby’s curse of having never made it to the all-star game against silly arguments (you know, the kind where people say that Bibby is so great, he doesn’t need to play passable defense and shooting from the arc on nearly half of all your FG attempts is just fine) , but the fact is….dude was robbed. If Jameer can be named an all-star, surely Bibby should have been named an alternate at least 3 times in his career.

The Truth

August 31st, 2009
1:06 am

Big Ray

August 31st, 2009
1:43 am

New blog up, y’all